Thread: False start on new deal for disgruntled Broncos receiver Marshall

Originally Posted by Mike

WRs aren't nearly as critical to team success as people seem to think. Having Marshall would be great and would benefit the Broncos, but it isn't critical.

If they can get fair value and he doesn't want to be here...dish him. If he is willing to accept an incentive and behavior restrictive contract...sign him. Don't sell the farm to keep though.

I have to agree with you regarding your approach to Marshall, Mike. However,
I can't help but to note what happened with the Patriots after Moss joined
them. I would bet my bottom dollar McDaniels & Co. are on pins and needles,
hoping against hope that Marshall has decided to get serious about his
contributions toward the team. And Bowlen, too . . .

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Originally Posted by broncophan

Yea.......I am sure the team will try......
I hope I am wrong.....obviously......I just don't think having Marshall will get us a whole lot more more wins.....than without him....at least for this season.

What happened to the days where we had talent.....and absolutely no head cases.......and almost no off the field issues....is what I would like to know...

If we end up being a 4 win team, you're right... he won't make much of a difference this year.

If we're all shocked, and we somehow manage to make it to 8-8 or 10-6... he could be the difference between the two... and if we make the playoffs... we need playmakers.

I agree though. I miss 98.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

I see what you're saying...

But are we more or less potent as an offense with Marshall on the field? It's hard to pick out which games specifically a WR will help us win, but that doesn't mean they don't help us win.

He makes our offense better. We need a good offense to win.

I personally would like us to at least try to win. If we only win 4 games, so be it... but I'm not going to say, to hell with any talent we may have... we're not going to win much anyway....

I remember the last time we decided to just develop talent and let it go... thinking that we could just replace it easily... it was our Defensive line. How's that working for us now?

but back then we did not have a coaching staff that knew elbows from little fingers and a HC that had different priorities than this one seems to have.. offense is nice but not the end all ..

will we be better with marshall? probably, but how much better and does that mean he is worth all the potential suspensions, jail time and other baggage..

Hey I do not know something for the coaching staff to figure out..

I know he most likely would not sign a "stick and carrot" type contract but that is all that I would offer him.. and mine would have very little UP front money that would be remotely unrecoverable because his next offense off the field could mean 6-8 games missed and while he is not "paid" while suspended.. he still has up front money to live off of..

so sorry if that means he does else where so be it.. Pat has already paid a bunch of money to clowns that were cut and leaving us over the years I'd guess at 40-50 million in dead cap space..

IIRC we had of a couple of years 10-15 million in dead cap alone..

so is he worth it, for the extra "elite status" IMHO no..

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

but back then we did not have a coaching staff that knew elbows from little fingers and a HC that had different priorities than this one seems to have.. offense is nice but not the end all ..

Yeah... gee, I wish Shanahan knew what he was doing when he got us two straight superbowls. Or when he put together a completely different defense that took us to the AFC Championship.

Good thing we brought in McDaniels to fix the defense. Moreno will do that nicely.

lol.

I'm poking fun a little, JR... but your glasses aren't orange... they're something else. I'm not sure exactly how it is you see things at times.

if they couldn't tell fingers from Elbows.. .. then I think I want another farsighted coach.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

Yeah... gee, I wish Shanahan knew what he was doing when he got us two straight superbowls. Or when he put together a completely different defense that took us to the AFC Championship.

Good thing we brought in McDaniels to fix the defense. Moreno will do that nicely.

lol.

I'm poking fun a little, JR... but your glasses aren't orange... they're something else. I'm not sure exactly how it is you see things at times.

Well . . . he's not boring . . .

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Originally Posted by topscribe

Well . . . he's not boring . . .

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No, I wouldn't argue that.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

Yeah... gee, I wish Shanahan knew what he was doing when he got us two straight superbowls. Or when he put together a completely different defense that took us to the AFC Championship.

Good thing we brought in McDaniels to fix the defense. Moreno will do that nicely.

lol.

I'm poking fun a little, JR... but your glasses aren't orange... they're something else. I'm not sure exactly how it is you see things at times.

yes he did indeed get us to two Lombardi's and might have had a third had the team not melted down at home against first year team..

so now that he and a GOOD DC won those trophy's he has done almost nothing since with the defense other than go through 4-5 DC during that time frame..

yes he was great OC for this team but I hope you will not want to say he was much in the personnel area..

his defenses for the most part sucked while they may have ranked in the top ten in either pass or run defense depending on which was the defense dejour.. when one was top ten or better the other was in the crapper.. in most cases our team shut down the run so they just turned around and passed all day on us..

or vice versa.

back in 2003 or so we traded for Champ thinking that he would magically cure the passing game.. they or I should say mike just never figured out that unless you put pressure n the QB consistently with the DL that the QB was going to pick up the blitz and hit that open man or have all day to hit open WR.. The four greatest DB's in the game could not cover decent to great WR for 5-8 seconds with a manning or good to great QB looking for the open men.


I am hoping the new guy knows elbows from pinkie fingers because he is our HC. I like everything I have seen so far form the guy.. and I am willing to give him time to clean up the mess he was left with.. it took ten years to get there and it may take more than one-threes years to fix..

I know that many here believe deeply that all that was needed was to fix the D and frankly I was thinking the same thing at first..

But every thing I have seen this kid do looks like it is the right thing and as needed to be done.. to become a new power house..

I know that many do not want to be NE west and thought that the old system was going to be kept, but Pat did and he is the one that counts..

Pat was smart enough to know when to cut ties now many of Y'all need to make that same decision..

If for some reason Josh does not make it mike and his old ways are not coming back..

FWIW while I know that some think the players are going through the motions because it is the new boss, and maybe a few are.. BUT I see a new attitude on the field and folks stoked about playing football again.. I do not think that is just saying what the new boss wants to hear..

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

yes he did indeed get us to two Lombardi's and might have had a third had the team not melted down at home against first year team..

so now that he and a GOOD DC won those trophy's he has done almost nothing since with the defense other than go through 4-5 DC during that time frame..

yes he was great OC for this team but I hope you will not want to say he was much in the personnel area..

his defenses for the most part sucked while they may have ranked in the top ten in either pass or run defense depending on which was the defense dejour.. when one was top ten or better the other was in the crapper.. in most cases our team shut down the run so they just turned around and passed all day on us..

or vice versa.

back in 2003 or so we traded for Champ thinking that he would magically cure the passing game.. they or I should say mike just never figured out that unless you put pressure n the QB consistently with the DL that the QB was going to pick up the blitz and hit that open man or have all day to hit open WR.. The four greatest DB's in the game could not cover decent to great WR for 5-8 seconds with a manning or good to great QB looking for the open men.


I am hoping the new guy knows elbows from pinkie fingers because he is our HC. I like everything I have seen so far form the guy.. and I am willing to give him time to clean up the mess he was left with.. it took ten years to get there and it may take more than one-threes years to fix..

I know that many here believe deeply that all that was needed was to fix the D and frankly I was thinking the same thing at first..

But every thing I have seen this kid do looks like it is the right thing and as needed to be done.. to become a new power house..

I know that many do not want to be NE west and thought that the old system was going to be kept, but Pat did and he is the one that counts..

Pat was smart enough to know when to cut ties now many of Y'all need to make that same decision..

If for some reason Josh does not make it mike and his old ways are not coming back..

FWIW while I know that some think the players are going through the motions because it is the new boss, and maybe a few are.. BUT I see a new attitude on the field and folks stoked about playing football again.. I do not think that is just saying what the new boss wants to hear..

lol.... That 'good DC' we had for those SBs was out of the league before Shanny was.

I may not have the history with the team that some do, but I've been a fan since the Superbowls, so I didn't really need this history lesson or your perversion of it.

Say what you will... the team that nearly made it to the Superbowl in 2005 was completely different (save for a few faces) than the one that won the superbowls. If you give Shanny all the blame for when things fall apart, you need to give him credit for putting them together again too.

Yes, Bowlen decided to cut ties. That doesn't mean I need to find ways to denigrate our old coach who is likely to end up in the HOF. I know what he did and what he was capable of. I've let go my anger at his release, but it doesn't make your statements any more true.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

lol.... That 'good DC' we had for those SBs was out of the league before Shanny was.

I may not have the history with the team that some do, but I've been a fan since the Superbowls, so I didn't really need this history lesson or your perversion of it.

Say what you will... the team that nearly made it to the Superbowl in 2005 was completely different (save for a few faces) than the one that won the superbowls. If you give Shanny all the blame for when things fall apart, you need to give him credit for putting them together again too.

Yes, Bowlen decided to cut ties. That doesn't mean I need to find ways to denigrate our old coach who is likely to end up in the HOF. I know what he did and what he was capable of. I've let go my anger at his release, but it doesn't make your statements any more true.

Revisionist history is en vogue at the moment, so I wouldn't try too hard to explain things. The fact that Bowlen fired Shanhan after 14 years becomes 'proof' that Shanahan inherited a SB team, and had been lousy since Elway retired. It's not worth trying to inject common sense and logic into an emotions based bias.

Originally Posted by Ravage!!!

we need to be honest and just admit that this team needs Marshall. It does.

No TEAM NEEDS 1 player. Especially a guy like BMarsh. Plenty of teams have won rings w/o "premiere" WRs. And none of the divas are wearing any jewelery w/ the exception of Michael Irvin.

I think the perceived value of an elite WR is overrated. if we are going to pass the ball 600 times a year, then sure...it helps to have a workhorse. But I think those days are over. In this offense, we'll be passing to set up the run and it will be a much more balanced attack. In that scenario...an "elite" WR is not necessary. But even if it is, we already have one that is working on his elite status.

If Marshall stays at a reasonable price...great. If not...so be it. We wont be significantly better or worse with or without him.

I LOVE Royal.. love him. But I think he's working on being an elite #2 and not a #1. Having Marshall on the other side will make Royal HUGE... not having him and putting someone like Gaffney, will make things very difficult in the long run for Royal. Sure he'll have his big games.

But this offense has struggled without Marshall in the lineup. I know I know.. you guys are going to say "but its only pre-season." "we haven't even played a game yet." I seem to rmember people saying that EXACT same defense about our DL LAST pre-season as we watched it get blown off the line.

As of right now.. our offense has stuttered without Marshall in the lineup. His presence makes things a LOT LOT easier for the rest of the receivers, and will make it a LOT easier on Orton.... and orton needs that.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

I see what you're saying...

But are we more or less potent as an offense with Marshall on the field? It's hard to pick out which games specifically a WR will help us win, but that doesn't mean they don't help us win.

He makes our offense better. We need a good offense to win.

I personally would like us to at least try to win. If we only win 4 games, so be it... but I'm not going to say, to hell with any talent we may have... we're not going to win much anyway....

I remember the last time we decided to just develop talent and let it go... thinking that we could just replace it easily... it was our Defensive line. How's that working for us now?

I would like to see our WR in question go without getting into any trouble off the field. Everybody wants something and right now the Broncos want a reliable WR who has a tendency to get into trouble off the field which effects what happens on the field. Denying what is in front of you will not make it go away just because said player has skills on the field.

Originally Posted by LordTrychon

lol.... That 'good DC' we had for those SBs was out of the league before Shanny was.

I may not have the history with the team that some do, but I've been a fan since the Superbowls, so I didn't really need this history lesson or your perversion of it.

Say what you will... the team that nearly made it to the Superbowl in 2005 was completely different (save for a few faces) than the one that won the superbowls. If you give Shanny all the blame for when things fall apart, you need to give him credit for putting them together again too.

Yes, Bowlen decided to cut ties. That doesn't mean I need to find ways to denigrate our old coach who is likely to end up in the HOF. I know what he did and what he was capable of. I've let go my anger at his release, but it doesn't make your statements any more true.

so your saying Robinson was not a good DC, that did not have a clue about defenses?

Just need to clarify that. that he was who you were talking about..

IIRC he moved on to SEA after him and mike argued about players or something who knows for sure.. then we hired Rhodes IIRC and then coyer and bates and then slowitt..

but I could be wrong a out the sequence..

I am not revising history..in that regard..

Not denigrating your HOF coach merely calling a spade a spade.. he was great as an OC beyond that he showed me not much without a long list of HOF players and a few more that should be.. he won alot of games no doubt but Squeaking by on the late rallies by John and Jake or on the toe of Jason for many of them well It did not do it for me.

yes I know a win is a win to most.. but there are WINS and then there are wins..

but mike had a lot of LOSSES also.. he also had a lot of losses in trap games..

and please do not argue that everyone does because I expect more out of a "HOF" than you might..

Not sure about what you meant about finding ways to denigrate him merely stated facts IF I have mis quoted or mis stated something please show me where I have.. Because i have pretty throughly looked at stats over the years and believe I am correct..


on another tangent..

I heard Rod Woodson talk this morning during my workouts.. He said that those teams teams that are small and finesse teams play really well during sept and early OCT but fade in the later games because of stamina and weather when it comes down to having to run the ball the little teams that started out well fade..

he was not talking about DEN per se, but it hit home.. he said those teams that have the big back are the ones that are going to win late and in the playoffs..