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Thread: Was Woodyard's hit on Pryor Legal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
    Because how is a DT that startd down on all fours, head first fighting against a 300 lb lineman suppose to NOT hit a RB that is coming through the line...head first...without making contact helmet to helmet?

    If they called a HTH hit in that area, it would be almost on every running play. At least the league understands that there are situations where it just can't be avoided.
    Fair enough. I would argue that it could have easily been avoided in this play, however.

    Dennis Allen agrees with you though:

    "Asked whether the hit looked like an illegal helmet-to-helmet blow, Raiders coach Dennis Allen said he could not tell.

    'Within the rules, it's inside the tackle box,' Allen said. 'But it was a pretty good hit.'"
    Last edited by wayninja; 09-24-2013 at 10:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?
    Look at 0:16-0:17 of the clip you posted, Woodyard does not use the crown of the helmet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Look at 0:16-0:17 of the clip you posted, Woodyard does not use the crown of the helmet.
    That's what I'm looking at... the crown clearly hits pryor under the face-mask (on his left side). I can't explain why we see different things.

    You can clearly see pryors head snap sideways with the contact

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    That's what I'm looking at... the crown clearly hits pryor under the face-mask. I can't explain why we see different things.
    Maybe you need to read the league's definition of "crown of the helmet".

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    He still hits Pryor under the chin with the crown of his helmet. Does intention factor into it?
    He leads with the shoulder, jsut as the NFL wants a player to do. There is not way to eliminate contact with helmets, thats why they wear them. But Woodyard did not lead with his head. He went in and put his head in front of the runner, hitting with his shoulder pad first. I don't think you can ask more than that (although the NFL would like it to be paddy-cake). But if this hit is illegal, then there is no way to ask players to TRY and make a legal hit, as they would just give up.

    Not to mention, as said before, if it was outside the tackle box, it wasn't by much. If QBs are going to run the ball, then get ready to be smacked.

    I heard Phil Simms talking about just how fast DCs and defenses acclimate to changes in the NFL. He's saying that this "read option" offense is something that defenses are not only looking for, but basically saying PLEASE PLEASE run the option.

    Its going to die about as fast as the Wildcat did.
    (the previous comment was not directed at any particular individual and was not intended to slander,disrespect or offend any reader of said statement)

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    That was a legal hit. Pryor was outside the tackle box, we starting to duck, and it's seems clear to me Woodyard hit with his shoulder not his helmet. Also as Chaz pointed out if that's foul the hit D. Thomas is also definitely a foul.
    Last edited by TXBRONC; 09-24-2013 at 10:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LTC Pain View Post
    Woodyard did not lead with his head nor did he target Pryor's head = good hit. Woodyard led with his shoulder. I thought there helmets making contact was a residual effect of the speed/violence of Woodyard's shoulder to Pryor's chest/chin area. No flag, no fine, no warning.
    Woodyard's hit the back Pryor's head with his shoulder pad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
    He leads with the shoulder, jsut as the NFL wants a player to do. There is not way to eliminate contact with helmets, thats why they wear them. But Woodyard did not lead with his head. He went in and put his head in front of the runner, hitting with his shoulder pad first. I don't think you can ask more than that (although the NFL would like it to be paddy-cake). But if this hit is illegal, then there is no way to ask players to TRY and make a legal hit, as they would just give up.
    I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
    Not to mention, as said before, if it was outside the tackle box, it wasn't by much. If QBs are going to run the ball, then get ready to be smacked.
    Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravage!!! View Post
    I heard Phil Simms talking about just how fast DCs and defenses acclimate to changes in the NFL. He's saying that this "read option" offense is something that defenses are not only looking for, but basically saying PLEASE PLEASE run the option.

    Its going to die about as fast as the Wildcat did.
    I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LawDog View Post
    Maybe you need to read the league's definition of "crown of the helmet".
    Well, I'll be happy for a citation, since I don't see an official league definition anywhere. Seems to me that 'crown' needs as much a definition as 'helmet'.

    It's the top of the helmet. So in the sense that he doesn't hit pryror with the center-of-area point of the helmet, you are correct. In the looser sense that he uses the 'top' of his helmet, you aren't. In any event, I think that's splitting hairs. But splitting hairs is what we've been reduced to, I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.



    Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?



    I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.
    If you lead with your shoulder, you aren't using your head as a weapon. THAT is what they are trying to eliminate. You can't eliminate Helmet-to-helmet contact. They actually DO understand this. So if you show that you are making the PROPER attempt to lead with yoru shoulder, and the collision impact then causes the helmets to hit.... all is good (generally).


    As far as the read-option. I think its becoming not nearly as effective as it was. Look how well it worked for the 49ers against both the Seahawks and the colts....and they were supposed to be the "elite" team with the Read-option.

    Defensive players in the NFL are just TOO fast, and too smart, to run this inthe NFL for extended time. Not only are defenders able to keep the QB bottled up, they can force reads that the defense wants you to have (meaning, if they want the QB to keep the ball, they will give the read up front for him to keep it). Not only are DCs too smart for this, but defenders during the games are recognizing it soo much faster now. Did you see how fast LBs are closing in on Pryor last night? THe read-option is going to put QBs out of games. It's a passing league. I think the Read-option "fad" will die off very quickly.
    (the previous comment was not directed at any particular individual and was not intended to slander,disrespect or offend any reader of said statement)

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    If it's the play I'm thinking of, they actually are supposed to start penalizing the runners for using their helmet, but I haven't seen it called yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayninja View Post
    I've seen plenty of 'shoulder led' contact this season flagged. Again, I agree with you, I don't think Woodyard 'led' with his helmet, but HTH contact was made nonetheless. The whole 'lead with your shoulder' is kinda dumb when you think of the proximity of head to shoulder.



    Dennis Allen seemed to think it was in the tackle box. I guess I just don't like having different rules for different situations. It annoys me as much as when I see signs saying 'Begin Fines double for speeding'. I mean, if you don't want people to speed, why not make the fine double all the time?



    I don't think so. It's too powerful when the passing game is working to completely give up on. But it also depends on all the tweaking to the rules the league does too. Wish they'd just keep it simple.
    You can't tell that's it Pyor's facemask hitting Woodyard's earhole?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    If it's the play I'm thinking of, they actually are supposed to start penalizing the runners for using their helmet, but I haven't seen it called yet.
    They are only supposed to penalize them for it if it's outside the tackle box as well if I remember the rule correctly.

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    Pryor just tweeted this. The side effects of concussions can be super scary. I can't imagine forgetting about most of the game because of one hit.

    "Sorry about the loss RaiderNation. I don't remember much ! Good hit by whoever it was. I heard our team fought well .. We will be back!"

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