Thread: What are you reading?

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

The Big Sky by A. B. Guthrie, Jr. Dave you might like it.

Tell me more Hawgington

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

Tell me more Hawgington

https://www.goodreads.com/review/sho..._review_page=1

I'm about an hour in to the 14-hour audiobook. The first twenty or so minutes I thought 'Dave would want to know about this.' I should wait until I'm done with it, but give it a rip if you need an 'out west' fix.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

https://www.goodreads.com/review/sho..._review_page=1

I'm about an hour in to the 14-hour audiobook. The first twenty or so minutes I thought 'Dave would want to know about this.' I should wait until I'm done with it, but give it a rip if you need an 'out west' fix.

did you say out west?

Buying it now

it is not on audible - so i bought another louis l'amour book

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

it is not on audible - so i bought another louis l'amour book

Ah bummer. You could try here:

https://www.dreamscapeab.com/audiobook/1737993/detail

Listened to a few true crime audiobooks lately. Some Ann Rule and just finishing this one about BTK.

I'm reading a book now called "Punished by Rewards (the trouble with gold stars, incentive plans, A+'s, praise, and other bribes)"

The author is a behavioral psychologist who tackles the deeply rooted premise that pervades our culture, that rewards are a good way to encourage or modify behavior. The gist of it is that extrinsic rewards smother and corrupt intrinsic motivation. You might begin to dislike something you used to like for its own sake once a reward is associated with it. Somewhat surprising is the fact that praise can too often put a damper on a child's natural inclination for a thing. I like books that tackle orthodoxy and convention, and make you realize how much you just accept the world around you without questioning it. It's the kind of book that questions a major premise of our culture, and find we have accepted this premise too long and too unthinkingly.

I'd enjoy chatting with Dave about this one.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

I'm reading a book now called "Punished by Rewards (the trouble with gold stars, incentive plans, A+'s, praise, and other bribes)"

The author is a behavioral psychologist who tackles the deeply rooted premise that pervades our culture, that rewards are a good way to encourage or modify behavior. The gist of it is that extrinsic rewards smother and corrupt intrinsic motivation. You might begin to dislike something you used to like for its own sake once a reward is associated with it. Somewhat surprising is the fact that praise can too often put a damper on a child's natural inclination for a thing. I like books that tackle orthodoxy and convention, and make you realize how much you just accept the world around you without questioning it. It's the kind of book that questions a major premise of our culture, and find we have accepted this premise too long and too unthinkingly.

I'd enjoy chatting with Dave about this one.

Yeah - i am a huge fan of praise and reward, but only when the effort genuinely deserves it.

Kid comes last in a race, but trained hard for it, is totally out of breath and ran it faster than they ever ran it before - reward the **** out of that
Kid comes last in a race but never tried, trained or cared - give them **** all
Kid comes first in a race but never tried, trained or cared - give them very little

Also, who delivers the praise and in what setting is also key - if i praise my 15 year old in front of her friends, it will put her off whatever i was trying to encourage with my praise

If a dick of a teacher praises in an insincere way - it will create disdain for the teacher

But if someone valuable to and respected by the child praises something, at the right time, the results can be litterally magic

Also - there is a huge difference between incentives and bribes (from the book title) - bribes never work (in creating any long term change)

So the short version is

I agree with the author but with some caveats and i hope she is not jsut being polemic without also acknowledging the benefits of doing it correctly

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

Also - there is a huge difference between incentives and bribes (from the book title) - bribes never work (in creating any long term change)

The shock factor of the book (hey, everyone likes an outrageous story) is in showing evidence of how praise is actually a bribe.

Here's an example.

They took a bunch of kids and asked them to try Kefir (flavored yogurt drink). Some kids, they just drank it/tried it. Others, they gave praise, 'oh good job, you finished it all!' Still others they said 'if you finish the whole thing, we'll give you a movie pass'.

The ones who drank the most Kefir were the movie pass group.

They followed up by having Kefir available a week or two later, and found out that the ones who received neither praise nor movie passes were the most likely to try the Kefir again, maybe drink more than they had before. The other two groups were much less likely to touch it.

Originally Posted by Valar Morghulis

So the short version is

I agree with the author but with some caveats and i hope she is not jsut being polemic without also acknowledging the benefits of doing it correctly

Sometimes it's best to just argue your side of the story as persuasively as possible. He'll make allowances for the value of Skinner ideology but you can tell he is a bit of a crusader for this topic. I can't say I blame him if it's true that most modern texts on the subject don't mention the measured effect of a reduction in intrinsic motivation after application of extrinsic rewards.

What I'm really enjoying is discussing the book with my son--we both listened to a bit on audiobook.

Originally Posted by Hawgdriver

The shock factor of the book (hey, everyone likes an outrageous story) is in showing evidence of how praise is actually a bribe.

Here's an example.

They took a bunch of kids and asked them to try Kefir (flavored yogurt drink). Some kids, they just drank it/tried it. Others, they gave praise, 'oh good job, you finished it all!' Still others they said 'if you finish the whole thing, we'll give you a movie pass'.

The ones who drank the most Kefir were the movie pass group.

They followed up by having Kefir available a week or two later, and found out that the ones who received neither praise nor movie passes were the most likely to try the Kefir again, maybe drink more than they had before. The other two groups were much less likely to touch it.

A bribe (For a specific incident or outcome)

If you do x, you will get y

Praise (should be a predictable and reliable pattern that is consistent)

Hey, you tried x, well done. What should we do now?

Or if they don't try it

Hey, you didn't try x today, maybe next time. Come on let's go.

The trick to effective praise is the ambivalence you show when the absence of praise is needed

Also once kids learn reward is conditional, they won't do that thing without the reward..... That's well evidenced