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Thread: Bates has heavy influence on Packers' defense

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    Default Bates has heavy influence on Packers' defense

    System remains true to mentor's vision

    By TOM SILVERSTEIN
    Oct. 28, 2007

    Denver - Along the way there have been bumps, lots of bumps, some of them as big as Ahmad Carroll's ego or as confounding as Mark Roman's tackling or as unnerving as Marquand Manuel's coverage ability.

    But the vision Jim Bates had for the Green Bay Packers' defense has become a reality in its third year in practice.

    Thanks to the work of Bates' right-hand man, Bob Sanders, and the staff that stayed behind with him, the Packers are playing winning defense, keeping their team in every game and winning some when they have to. After two years of instability, the Packers' defense is the one constant in a 5-1 start.

    And so it may be with envy that Bates witnesses the Packers' defense from the other sideline tonight at Invesco Field at Mile High Stadium. Back in coaching a year after falling short of his bid to succeed Mike Sherman as head coach, Bates can't be anything but proud of what the current staff has accomplished.

    "I think so," said defensive tackles coach Robert Nunn, a longtime colleague and close friend of Bates'. "He keeps up with us. I talk with him often. He kept up with us last year and was constantly in touch with us.

    "It was funny how he could watch a game on TV and you would have thought he had watched the tape because he knew exactly what happened. He'd call us and say something like, 'What was that guy doing?' "

    The Packers have maintained Bates' match-coverage scheme as their defensive foundation but Bates himself is running a vastly different system as assistant head coach/defense of the Broncos. Those who have studied the defense say it appears to be more the blitzing style of Bob Slowik, another former Packers defensive coordinator who is on the Broncos' staff.

    When the teams take the field tonight, it's likely Bates' influence will show more on the Packers' side of the field than on the Broncos'.

    "It's all because of personnel," Nunn said. "You have to adjust to what you have. He's very good at doing that. We've kept it intact, but it's because of players. We have the players. We try to fit what we do with what we're able to do."

    The system, however, is what Nunn, Sanders and Bates all strongly believe in. They have believed in it since they were all together as part of the Miami Dolphins' defensive staff during the early part of the decade.

    Sanders worked with some pretty bright defensive minds at the University of Florida, including Bates, Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops and Illinois coach Ron Zook, but he was attracted to the unique concept of the scheme Bates taught him in Miami. The roots of the system go back to the Dallas Cowboys of the Jimmy Johnson era when smaller, quicker linebackers became acceptable.

    Bates learned the system in Dallas under Johnson and Dave Wannstedt and then used it in Miami after Wannstedt brought him in to be his defensive coordinator.

    "This a very, very good system," Sanders said. "It causes offenses a lot of problems. Not a lot of people do it; not a lot of people really know how to do it. We're not a man-to-man team, we're a match team. It's been effective. It puts our guys in position to win. That's the object.

    "You try not to give up big plays in any defense, but the bottom line is not letting them score so you can win games. From that standpoint, it's been a very effective system."

    Entering play tonight, the Packers rank a respectable 15th in defense, but that clearly doesn't tell the whole story. They're 11th in points allowed, fifth in third-down efficiency, 11th in yards allowed per carry and have held opposing quarterbacks to a 56.7 completion percentage.

    They have allowed nine passing touchdowns but no reception longer than 40 yards.

    That's a vast improvement from two years ago - their first in the system - and a solid improvement from a year ago when they leaked big plays like a spaghetti strainer, giving up 14 plays of 40 yards or more and a dizzying 37 touchdowns. This year, they're on pace to give up eight plays of 40 yards or more and 29 touchdowns.

    "They needed time to grow into it and to learn what can hurt you," Nunn said of the transition to the new system. "One thing now when we get burned on something, our guys usually know what happened. When we first started out, we got burned it was, 'What happened?'

    "It's just experience running it and we have good personnel."

    General manager Ted Thompson has fed the Packers with a steady flow of players who fit the scheme and that has contributed greatly to the improvement of the defense. Only five starters are the same from the usual lineup Bates used in his one and only season as the Packers' defensive coordinator.

    The system doesn't ask the players to do more than they're able.

    Sanders' "match concept" features a combination of traditional man-to-man bump technique by the cornerbacks with a zone or "match" coverage by the linebackers and safeties. There is man-to-man defense played, but in most cases the defenders are in man-to-man only until a specified player leaves their zone; then they have help.

    Blitzing is used sparingly and often it's on run downs.

    The addition of cornerback Charles Woodson might have been the most important component of the team's success because now the Packers have two cornerbacks holding up opposing receivers.

    The defensive line plays a run-oriented two-gap system, but it benefits from the bump-and-run coverage because the quarterback can't always deliver the ball as fast as he would like.

    "It's a system that fits my philosophy of how you play football," coach Mike McCarthy said. "I believe to win the world championship you need to challenge the opponent. We have the ability to choke an opponent."

    The defense is far from a finished product but they're certainly a better defense than they were when Bates took over and pretty close to the model their architect designed.

    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=679791

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    lets hope that GM mikey will get him the rest of the bodies he needs to get the job done this coming year..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jrwiz View Post
    lets hope that GM mikey will get him the rest of the bodies he needs to get the job done this coming year..
    When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream View Post
    When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?
    I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
    isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
    the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
    the normal case, it seems.

    -----
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
    isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
    the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
    the normal case, it seems.

    -----
    Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream View Post
    When are you going to understand that Shanahan isn't the GM?
    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
    isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
    the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
    the normal case, it seems.

    -----
    It seems that even though someone else has the title it is in name only..

    Would you rather have AJ Smith or the GM for NE or Sunkist?

    I know who I'd rather have..


















    Anyone but mikey..

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    I think he is implying that in many ways Shanny is the GM de facto, even if he
    isn't in name. In fact, it appears that he could fire the GM, which is reverse of
    the usual case. Shanny has more authority and decision-making power than
    the normal case, it seems.

    -----
    More or less my beef is that JR never seems to place blame on Sundquist, the rest of the player personnel department (Goodman) and the scouting department when it comes to making draft selections or in regards to scouting of players who are in the NFL, which relates to finding players via Free Agency. Shanahan just seems to get the end of the stick with everything in JR's mind. "Daft in the draft."

    You're only as good as the people working around you. Hopefully with Goodman, DiStefano and several others who have experience and some young and up and coming scouts - things can change. It seems for the past few years, they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
    Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.
    I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
    Dan Reeves had basically the same level of control that Shanahan does now.
    That was part of Reeves' demands in his contract negotiations. He wanted full
    control. What had transpired here with Ralston might have stuck in his memory.
    If my own memory isn't mixed up, Ralston started out as GM. He decided to
    step down as coach, so he hired a GM to succeed him, then placed himself
    under that GM as Head Coach. Later, that GM (I forget his name off the top)
    turned around and fired Ralston! The way Reeves had it and Shanny has it,
    only one person in the entire organization can fire him: the owner.

    Anyway, back to the topic, it seems Shanny is leaning on Bates in a lot of
    decisions he may not have trusted Coyer with. And Bates really does appear
    to have more going above the shoulders than did Coyer.

    -----
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jrwiz View Post
    I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.
    You also have a problem with not being able to spread the blame around down through the whole department. However, I guess it's easier for you just to place it on one man. Makes it easy for you to make (false) points and arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream View Post
    More or less my beef is that JR never seems to place blame on Sundquist, the rest of the player personnel department (Goodman) and the scouting department when it comes to making draft selections or in regards to scouting of players who are in the NFL, which relates to finding players via Free Agency. Shanahan just seems to get the end of the stick with everything in JR's mind. "Daft in the draft."

    You're only as good as the people working around you. Hopefully with Goodman, DiStefano and several others who have experience and some young and up and coming scouts - things can change. It seems for the past few years, they have.
    Except for one thing: Shanny does make all the final decisions.

    -----
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream View Post
    You also have a problem with not being able to spread the blame around down through the whole department. However, I guess it's easier for you just to place it on one man. Makes it easy for you to make (false) points and arguments.
    Let's don't make the poster the topic here.

    -----
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jrwiz View Post
    I also have some ocean front land for sale in El Paso if you REALLY believe that.
    Watch it Jr. Yes Reeves did hold a position very similar to that of Shanahan. If you don't think so go back and look who fired him. It was Bowlen himself not the GM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by topscribe View Post
    Except for one thing: Shanny does make all the final decisions.

    -----
    Lee Rasizer wrote an article for TSN about how personnel decisions are made, and was very clear that everyone has input and nearly every personnel made is by group process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
    Lee Rasizer wrote an article for TSN about how personnel decisions are made, and was very clear that everyone has input and nearly every personnel made is by group process.
    That is very true. But the final call is made by one person.

    I cannot imagine who that would be, if not Shanny.

    -----
    Though He slay me, I will trust in Him . . . (Job 13:15)


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