Thread: Joe Mays

Joe Mays receives a lot of flack on these boards. Heck, some of it was from me. Still, EFX re-signed Mays to a 3 year deal worth $12 million with $4 million guaranteed. Was it a good move? I didn't think so, but as a part time player, mostly in on run downs, Mays may bring more to the table than at first thought. According to Pro Football Focus, Mays leads the leagues middle linebackers in Run Stop Percentage.

Which Brings Us to the Run Stop % …

To fully appreciate the how many stops a defender has made, you need to once again look at how much they’re on the field. That’s what brought the Run Stop Percentage Signature Stat to life; that desire to measure how often defenders were responsible for offensive failures relative to how often they were on the field. It’s through this stat we see that the Denver Broncos may have scored themselves a bargain with the re-signing of Joe Mays, as their middle linebacker led the league with a stop percentage of 14.29%. He was joined at the top by NaVorro Bowman who had an identical number as both men frequently left their mark on running backs.

Of course, there’s more to playing linebacker and contributing in run defense than making tackles and defensive stops–you need to be able to stand-up blockers, blow-up fullbacks, and re-direct runners–but it doesn’t hurt if you can make those plays that result in a defensive win. The Run Stop Percentage does as good a job as any at showing who is really getting it done.

More at http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog...e-linebackers/

Is Mays a top middle linebacker? No. I certainly would like to see an upgrade in the middle. Al Wilson, where are you? Still, EFX may not have made a bad decision to re-sign Mays. Only $4 million is guaranteed and we have a number of holes. Now, if he could only cover someone.

The problem is paying $4 million/year for a part time player, mostly in on run downs. He doesn't bring more to the table than first thought; he's a Sam playing Mike, as initially thought, and thus hopelessly inadequate, especially for $4 million/year. If we spent that just to get get a run stuffer, why not pay it to Bunkley, have a run stuffer on ALL downs and go find a legit MLB who can cover over the middle and blitz?

Mays plays MLB like it's still 1974 and it's enough to pop slot receivers hard when they go over the middle, then watch the ball fly one direction while their head flies another. That doesn't work anymore because 1) it's illegal and 2) receivers are MUCH better at making catches and holding on no matter what. That reduces Mays to running guys down and tackling them AFTER they get a first down, which would be fine in a Sam but is a massive liability in a Mike, who must tackle like Mays and cover like DJ, picking up half a dozen sacks/year along the way.

Mays has 0 sacks, 0 Ints and 3 passes defended in his 4 year career; that's not a $4 million Mike. http://www.nfl.com/player/joemays/4277/profile

This is why I dislike referring to "ILBs" generally, as if 3-4 ILBs (who must be good in coverage but only passable blitzers/run stoppers) were the same as MLBs (who must excel at everything, like 3-4 OLBs.)

London Fletcher will have at leas t one more season left. At the right price. But looks like we are going with Mays for 2011. Hope Irving doesn't turn out to be a wasted pick. He better show something or get showed the door.

apparently it is a 4 million a year Mike.

Fox has been a defensive coordinator and defensively minded DC for a long time in the NFL. During that career, he's proved to know his defense. That being said, I don't think he offers good pay to a player just "because."

Id feel better if could cover anything and didnt tackle dirt as much. If he can improve, then 4 mil is a bargain. What scares me the most is Woodyard having to play Mike on passing downs

Still keeping my fingers crossed on Nate Irving! Let's see if he stays healthy and pans out!

with the other SUSPENSIONS of linebackers, (DJ) I think we can remove the 'part-time" discription from the MAYS evaluation.

Originally Posted by Joel

The problem is paying $4 million/year for a part time player, mostly in on run downs. He doesn't bring more to the table than first thought; he's a Sam playing Mike, as initially thought, and thus hopelessly inadequate, especially for $4 million/year. If we spent that just to get get a run stuffer, why not pay it to Bunkley, have a run stuffer on ALL downs and go find a legit MLB who can cover over the middle and blitz?

Mays plays MLB like it's still 1974 and it's enough to pop slot receivers hard when they go over the middle, then watch the ball fly one direction while their head flies another. That doesn't work anymore because 1) it's illegal and 2) receivers are MUCH better at making catches and holding on no matter what. That reduces Mays to running guys down and tackling them AFTER they get a first down, which would be fine in a Sam but is a massive liability in a Mike, who must tackle like Mays and cover like DJ, picking up half a dozen sacks/year along the way.

Mays has 0 sacks, 0 Ints and 3 passes defended in his 4 year career; that's not a $4 million Mike. http://www.nfl.com/player/joemays/4277/profile

This is why I dislike referring to "ILBs" generally, as if 3-4 ILBs (who must be good in coverage but only passable blitzers/run stoppers) were the same as MLBs (who must excel at everything, like 3-4 OLBs.)

You basically wrote what I was going to when I saw this thread.

I'd rather have seen them give the money to Bunkley who was impressive stopping the run at a position where that's the prime criteria (DT). But, I think Joe Mays is entirely mediocre especially when you take WR coverage into account.

Denver needs an elite MLB to play a 4-3 effectively. Every time they've had one (Al Wilson) they had a good defense. Denver needs to find an elite MLB like Patrick Willis, Jerod Meyo, Curtis Lofton or Paul Posluzny. It's possible they could get a guy like that in the draft, if they were willing to trade up a bit.

After all, Clay Matthews was drafted #26 (that still angers me thinking we could have had BOTH Orakpo and Matthews instead of "No-Show and Ayers) and Paul Posluzny wasn't taken until the 2nd round. So it IS possible to get a great LB picking at #25 if you get the right guy. LOTs of really good starting LBs were chosen after #24.

Originally Posted by Ivan_0der

Still keeping my fingers crossed on Nate Irving! Let's see if he stays healthy and pans out!

He's going to have to show something in training camp and pre-season this year or he's not going to make the 53 man roster.

Originally Posted by Joel

The problem is paying $4 million/year for a part time player, mostly in on run downs. He doesn't bring more to the table than first thought; he's a Sam playing Mike, as initially thought, and thus hopelessly inadequate, especially for $4 million/year. If we spent that just to get get a run stuffer, why not pay it to Bunkley, have a run stuffer on ALL downs and go find a legit MLB who can cover over the middle and blitz?

Mays plays MLB like it's still 1974 and it's enough to pop slot receivers hard when they go over the middle, then watch the ball fly one direction while their head flies another. That doesn't work anymore because 1) it's illegal and 2) receivers are MUCH better at making catches and holding on no matter what. That reduces Mays to running guys down and tackling them AFTER they get a first down, which would be fine in a Sam but is a massive liability in a Mike, who must tackle like Mays and cover like DJ, picking up half a dozen sacks/year along the way.

Mays has 0 sacks, 0 Ints and 3 passes defended in his 4 year career; that's not a $4 million Mike. http://www.nfl.com/player/joemays/4277/profile

This is why I dislike referring to "ILBs" generally, as if 3-4 ILBs (who must be good in coverage but only passable blitzers/run stoppers) were the same as MLBs (who must excel at everything, like 3-4 OLBs.)

I agree with you Joel. I thought the article was interesting. We have really only guaranteed May's salary for the first year, it would appear. I hope we find a better replacement soon. I really wonder if Irving brings anything to the table or are we going to look elsewhere. I certainly hope we are not satisfied with or situation in the middle. This is a passing league. We need more than a one trick pony manning the middle.

Originally Posted by Ivan_0der

Still keeping my fingers crossed on Nate Irving! Let's see if he stays healthy and pans out!

Pretty much my only hope now, but very much an unknown quantity. He's also a bit small for MLB, (the same size as DJ, and we all remember the spectacle of RBs dragging him downfield at Mike.)

Originally Posted by Chef Zambini

with the other SUSPENSIONS of linebackers, (DJ) I think we can remove the 'part-time" discription from the MAYS evaluation.

Why? I can't imagine two worse LBs to rotate with each other; DJ's got great instincts and coverage ability, but regularly races to the ball against the run only to be overpowered by ball carriers, while Mays is a punishing tackler who lacks the speed or anticipation to read plays or cover anyone. That's like saying, "now that Ayers is suspended, Doom will play more." They only nominally play the "same" position.

Originally Posted by Cugel

You basically wrote what I was going to when I saw this thread.

I'd rather have seen them give the money to Bunkley who was impressive stopping the run at a position where that's the prime criteria (DT). But, I think Joe Mays is entirely mediocre especially when you take WR coverage into account.

Denver needs an elite MLB to play a 4-3 effectively. Every time they've had one (Al Wilson) they had a good defense. Denver needs to find an elite MLB like Patrick Willis, Jerod Meyo, Curtis Lofton or Paul Posluzny. It's possible they could get a guy like that in the draft, if they were willing to trade up a bit.

After all, Clay Matthews was drafted #26 (that still angers me thinking we could have had BOTH Orakpo and Matthews instead of "No-Show and Ayers) and Paul Posluzny wasn't taken until the 2nd round. So it IS possible to get a great LB picking at #25 if you get the right guy. LOTs of really good starting LBs were chosen after #24.

It's definitely doable for scouts who know how and a front office with that priority, and the fact we took two LBs in the first three rounds last year is encouraging (or bespeaks how empty we were at LB, but I doubt EFX thinks that's been remedied any more than we do.)

I hope we do it somehow, because running a 4-3 requires a very good MLB as assuredly as offense requires a very good QB. The way teams play 3-4 OLBs don't even try to pass cover these days, we might get away with putting DJ and Woodyard between Miller and Mays/Haggan if we had a solid NT. As it is, I'd still rather stick Miller between Haggan and DJ and hope he has the smarts and hands to cover than try another season with Mays at MLB. If Miller can play cover well enough of to make that survivable, we should put him at MLB where he belongs and put Mays at SLB where HE belongs.

Originally Posted by Canmore

I agree with you Joel. I thought the article was interesting. We have really only guaranteed May's salary for the first year, it would appear. I hope we find a better replacement soon. I really wonder if Irving brings anything to the table or are we going to look elsewhere. I certainly hope we are not satisfied with or situation in the middle. This is a passing league. We need more than a one trick pony manning the middle.

Sorry if I seemed a little confrontational; "it's not you, it's Mays." I don't really disagree with you either, or the article, factually, it's just that I demand my Mike be a star, not a glorified Sam.

Originally Posted by Joel

...Sorry if I seemed a little confrontational; "it's not you, it's Mays." I don't really disagree with you either, or the article, factually, it's just that I demand my Mike to be a star, not a glorified Sam.

Lol, you didn't come off as confrontational. That's really not your style, anyway. Like I said, I would love an upgrade at mike. I don't think it is going to happen this season. Stupid D J Williams.

Originally Posted by Canmore

Lol, you didn't come off as confrontational. That's really not your style, anyway. Like I said, I would love an upgrade at mike. I don't think it is going to happen this season. Stupid D J Williams.

Well, I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude on DJs drug test and appeal; again, since the guy who took his sample was fired by the NFL for mishandling samples, DJs complaint could well be valid. Re-signing Mays, however, does not bespeak a team looking to improve its Mike, so we'll all just have to pray he magically learns how to cover and stops overrunning plays after the off season. Mainly, I didn't want you to think my harsh condemnation of his play was a harsh condemnation of your post, but it sounds like my comments were received as intended.

Originally Posted by Joel

Pretty much my only hope now, but very much an unknown quantity. He's also a bit small for MLB, (the same size as DJ, and we all remember the spectacle of RBs dragging him downfield at Mike.)

Why? I can't imagine two worse LBs to rotate with each other; DJ's got great instincts and coverage ability, but regularly races to the ball against the run only to be overpowered by ball carriers, while Mays is a punishing tackler who lacks the speed or anticipation to read plays or cover anyone. That's like saying, "now that Ayers is suspended, Doom will play more." They only nominally play the "same" position.

It's definitely doable for scouts who know how and a front office with that priority, and the fact we took two LBs in the first three rounds last year is encouraging (or bespeaks how empty we were at LB, but I doubt EFX thinks that's been remedied any more than we do.)

I hope we do it somehow, because running a 4-3 requires a very good MLB as assuredly as offense requires a very good QB. The way teams play 3-4 OLBs don't even try to pass cover these days, we might get away with putting DJ and Woodyard between Miller and Mays/Haggan if we had a solid NT. As it is, I'd still rather stick Miller between Haggan and DJ and hope he has the smarts and hands to cover than try another season with Mays at MLB. If Miller can play cover well enough of to make that survivable, we should put him at MLB where he belongs and put Mays at SLB where HE belongs.

#25 in the draft is quite late to find an elite DT, but hopefully NOT too late to find one of the top 3 or 4 LBs. They could also find an elite G at this point, or a RT.

MLB: But, I'd say that MLB is an even bigger need than any of those.

CB and S is a need in the long-term, but they just signed Porter and they have Champ, so they're set for at least this year. I think Andre Goodman would make a perfectly adequate #3 CB in rotation. Just don't depend on him. He's earning peanuts this year and is under contract till 2014 if they really want to keep him.

So, I don't see CB as a huge need right now, and they've added help at S by signing Mike Adams to add to Quinton Carter (SS) and to replace Rahim Moore at (FS) (Moore is looking like another wasted draft pick and I'm not surprised). Adams was good in coverage for the Browns last year.

So, now the secondary for the first time in many years looks solid at all positions and has decent depth, although it's not exactly spectacular outside Champ.

OL and DL: That means that the only real weaknesses on the team are OL and DL. They need help at G, RT and C. And they need 2 or ideally 3 really good DTs to go with either Warren or Thomas in the rotation. And they could use another RB.

But, outside that I'd say we're set, although far from an elite team.

NFL Personnel Managers Grade the Broncos: Before last year there was an article in the paper pointing out how McMoron had run so much talent out of Denver that the team had one of the weakest rosters in the NFL in terms of overall talent. NFL personnel men grade players according to a scale: A-Grade is elite pro-bowl talent. B-Grade is "solid starter" C-Grade is "role-player".

Most of Denver's players were C Grade or worse and only Champ Bailey rated an "A" grade at the time. By comparison, a SB team like the Packers would normally have 5 or 6 A-Grade players and the rest of the Starters would be B-grade, with only a few C grade players as fill-ins.

Today, we have a lot more "B-Grade" players, and as for A-Grade, I would argue that Peyton, Champ, Doom & Miller all qualify. (Miller might be arguable since it's only his second season, but he won the defensive rookie of the year last year and I expect great things from him).

The secondary run down I mention above shows that they've at least added some "solid-starters" to their lineup to replace the marginal "role-players" they had at some key positions.

Now for fixing the MLB, OL and DL. . . . .

Originally Posted by Cugel

#25 in the draft is quite late to find an elite DT, but hopefully NOT too late to find one of the top 3 or 4 LBs. They could also find an elite G at this point, or a RT. MLB: But, I'd say that MLB is an even bigger need than any of those.

It's sound in principle but, in practice, a rookie QBing the D is as risky as one QBing the offense. Either way, a MLB needs, not just the physical ability and skills, but the experience to read formations, call the right audibles and then make big plays. Though it's possible to find the QB/MLB of the future in any draft, "experience" and "rookie" are mutually exclusive. There's no reason we can't find the next Al Wilson at #25 (or #125,) but also no reason to expect a star before Manning retires even if we do.

Originally Posted by Cugel

CB and S is a need in the long-term, but they just signed Porter and they have Champ, so they're set for at least this year. I think Andre Goodman would make a perfectly adequate #3 CB in rotation. Just don't depend on him. He's earning peanuts this year and is under contract till 2014 if they really want to keep him.So, I don't see CB as a huge need right now, and they've added help at S by signing Mike Adams to add to Quinton Carter (SS) and to replace Rahim Moore at (FS) (Moore is looking like another wasted draft pick and I'm not surprised). Adams was good in coverage for the Browns last year. So, now the secondary for the first time in many years looks solid at all positions and has decent depth, although it's not exactly spectacular outside Champ.

The secondary doesn't look solid at all to me; our CBs are solid IF we re-sign Harris, but our safeties are garbage without Dawkins. Carter scoring a gift wrapped playoff pick and a meaningless sack the first time the Pats smashed us doesn't make him good. If we find a centerfielder, Carter MIGHT be able to replace Dawkins as a devastating run stuffer, but that's a big "if", and run stuffing is not my primary interest in a safety.

I'd rather have Goodman at nickel and Harris as #2 CB than the reverse, but last I heard we still hadn't resigned Harris (which would be our biggest mistake in the secondary since letting Foxworth go.) The biggest secondary problem at present is the absence of anyone like Atwater, Lynch or Dawkins to either play centerfield OR run stop; Champ could fill both roles, but only if we found another elite CB to take his spot. I wouldn't mind drafting one early, because a good one could contribute immediately and Champ would be a lethal FS for the next five years.

Originally Posted by Cugel

OL and DL: That means that the only real weaknesses on the team are OL and DL. They need help at G, RT and C. And they need 2 or ideally 3 really good DTs to go with either Warren or Thomas in the rotation. And they could use another RB.

IF 1) Harris' back can last a full season, 2) we re-sign him AND 3) Clady's back to his old self after an injury-free offseason, I feel OK with our tackles, but our guards are a trainwreck, our only decent DT is in New Orleans, so we need major help on the interior of both lines. Unless Jeremiah Johnson comes on strong this year, we could definitely use another runner; McGahee's solid, but can't be an every down back when getting beat up breaking half a dozen tackles just to gain three yards 20-30 times a game, and our running game disappears without him.

Originally Posted by Cugel

But, outside that I'd say we're set, although far from an elite team.

Outside of the gaping holes in the center of our defensive and offensive lines, linebackers and secondary you think we're set? I wouldn't even go that far, though those are my foremost concerns; we're also counting on Decker to stop dropping balls and Thomas to continue performing like he did after the Vikings game to even have decent starting WRs (the issue of depth at running back has already been discussed.) Heaven help us if our line lets our immobile $20 million dollar man get hurt again, because we'll be starting Weber or Hanie (in order of preference; are we destined to sign every failed Bears QB in history?)

Originally Posted by Cugel

NFL Personnel Managers Grade the Broncos: Before last year there was an article in the paper pointing out how McMoron had run so much talent out of Denver that the team had one of the weakest rosters in the NFL in terms of overall talent. NFL personnel men grade players according to a scale: A-Grade is elite pro-bowl talent. B-Grade is "solid starter" C-Grade is "role-player". Most of Denver's players were C Grade or worse and only Champ Bailey rated an "A" grade at the time. By comparison, a SB team like the Packers would normally have 5 or 6 A-Grade players and the rest of the Starters would be B-grade, with only a few C grade players as fill-ins. Today, we have a lot more "B-Grade" players, and as for A-Grade, I would argue that Peyton, Champ, Doom & Miller all qualify. (Miller might be arguable since it's only his second season, but he won the defensive rookie of the year last year and I expect great things from him). The secondary run down I mention above shows that they've at least added some "solid-starters" to their lineup to replace the marginal "role-players" they had at some key positions. Now for fixing the MLB, OL and DL. . . . .

I accept that argument, with the qualifier attached to Miller. I would even add Ayers, Kuper, Clady and McGahee as at least "high Bs." Unfortunately, there's nothing at the core, leaving all our stars essentially "playing in space." None of them can play as an effective unit because there's nothing holding the team together; it's just a group of talented but isolated athletes trying to patch very large critical holes.