Thread: Grade the O-line.

Originally Posted by Joel

That's a critical distinction, as others have noted: Making their job easier doesn't make them better, it makes the consequences of their failings potentially less severe. But if Mannings mind and reflexes were quick enough to make poor blocking IRRELEVANT his neck would never have been injured and he'd still be in Indy. A quarterback is not a one man offense; Denvers understanding of that is what drew me to them in the first place, and the post-Shanahan eras reversion to "Great QB+Great blitzers=Championship" is deplorable. For MOST of his career Manning had exceptional offensive lines that made HIM better; that's actually how that tends to go. The first year I compiled my QBRS I was stunned to note he was only sacked 16 times in the whole season, and don't think that's all about his quick release and hot reads (although, in terms of what Manning can do by himself: 1 Super Bowl and 2 AFC Championships in how many years...?) The difference between Elway winning and losing Super Bowls was his offensive line more than anything else, including his Pro Bowl receivers and HoF running back.We also saw the boy-genius start screwing up the line along with everything else as soon as he got here. Someone (think it was Bull, actually) suggested trying to lure someone like Wiegmann away from the Chiefs to solve our line problems: We HAD Wiegmann after the Chiefs released him, but McDumbass decided Walton was an upgrade, and now he's back in KC. As soon as we dumped Ben Hamilton and Wiegmann for the younger and "better" Walton and Beadles, the "NFLs best line" went out the window (though I think the Pats line was still better, and the Colts, too, when they had Lilja.)Marino had Dwight Stephenson at center most of his career, and at least one Pro Bowl guard from '84-'86. He still only made (and lost) one Super Bow, and is Exhibit A for the case against QBs as one man offenses.There's no reason to believe an old, rickety and immobile QB, arguably the best pocket passer in history, will get the same pressure as a run-first QB with serious questions about his arm?! That sentence alone lists half a dozen reasons. He will get more pressure precisely because opposing defenses respect his passing ability , because the combination of handcuffing DBs and widespread conceit pass defence consists of nothing but blitzes would guarantee it even if he were as young, healthy and mobile as He Who Must Not Be Named. I think the notion we made the playoffs despite our last QB will be put to rest in about half a year.Surprisingly enough, not everything is a function of He Who Must Not Be Named, who was himself only a function of the Broncos (and only WHILE a Bronco.) Is Manning an upgrade? If he's healthy, unquestionably; he would be an upgrade over pretty much any QB in the league (although, without solid protection, I'd rather have his brother, who's more elusive.)

That doesn't change the fact Denvers only Pro Bowl receivers in the last two years were hastily handed to other teams for peanuts, leaving inconsistent second year players in their place (though Thomas looks solid now.) It doesn't change the fact we have no running backs to speak of when McGahee is too sore and tired to continue being hit at the line on every play then breaking multiple tackles to get four yards. And it doesn't change the fact our only good tackle was constantly holding after last years injury, our only good guard had his foot spun around backward at the end of the season, our other two guards are awful and our other tackle is a second year player who looked the part last year.

None of that has any more to do with Tebow than it did Orton, apart from the fact the rest of our offense made THEIR jobs harder as much the reverse was true. Peyton Manning can't change that; if he's healthy, he'll do more with that non-support than his two predecessors, but let's not kid ourselves he's solved all our problems. If we don't solve our problems on the line his remaining career could be measured in months, not years. Despite its appeal, ignoring problems makes them worse, not better.

The only good in this is that in two years we won't be able to tell ourselves we're a Super Bowl team that keeps missing the playoffs because our crappy QB isn't a Hall of Famer and we have no blitzers.

VERY good post... not that the blind will see or the def will hear... its a recurring theme with them even when they were wrong ALL LAST YEAR they still bend reality to fit their fragile minds.

Thanks to espn they bash Tebow even though in his first year as starter he took a way below avg team to a home playoff win... best in 7 years... and now the media hype is getting to them again that a dinged up hof who past his prime is going to win championships by himself...

Tell me this Mos of the world, name me ONE legend who left his original team past his prime who has won anything with their new team! Not Montana not Favre not anyone...

Im am not saying that Manning cant do that... Im saying you better protect his ass... Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.

Originally Posted by Bullgator

VERY good post... not that the blind will see or the def will hear... its a recurring theme with them even when they were wrong ALL LAST YEAR they still bend reality to fit their fragile minds.

Thanks to espn they bash Tebow even though in his first year as starter he took a way below avg team to a home playoff win... best in 7 years... and now the media hype is getting to them again that a dinged up hof who past his prime is going to win championships by himself...

Tell me this Mos of the world, name me ONE legend who left his original team past his prime who has won anything with their new team! Not Montana not Favre not anyone...

Im am not saying that Manning cant do that... Im saying you better protect his ass... Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.

Are you still here?

Originally Posted by turftoad

Are you still here?

Are you? who the hell do you think you are? you are nobody to me Toad get lost.

I believe Manning is only the second hall of fame caliber quarterback to ever hit free agency, so obviously, that's kind of a stupid argument.

The other, Favre, was an overtime away from playing in a Super Bowl.



I'll take my chances with a future hall of famer rather than Akili Smith.

Originally Posted by Bullgator

Are you? who the hell do you think you are? you are nobody to me Toad get lost.

All you wanna do is bash the moves the Broncos have made and try to push your opinion on Manning on us. You are pissed off that the Broncos actually traded Tebow and can't get over it. You are not even a fan of the Broncos so I don't even understand why the hell you'd even want to be here except to piss people off.

BTW, I think out O line is great, I mean, we were #1 in rushing last year and that's because of the O line.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

I believe Manning is only the second hall of fame caliber quarterback to ever hit free agency, so obviously, that's kind of a stupid argument.

The other, Favre, was an overtime away from playing in a Super Bowl.



I'll take my chances with a future hall of famer rather than Akili Smith.

You would be wrong as you always are... unless Montanas stint in KC was bad enough to remove him from the HoF

Montana was traded to the Chiefs.

Originally Posted by turftoad

All you wanna do is bash the moves the Broncos have made and try to push your opinion on Manning on us. You are pissed off that the Broncos actually traded Tebow and can't get over it. You are not even a fan of the Broncos so I don't even understand why the hell you'd even want to be here except to piss people off.

BTW, I think out O line is great, I mean, we were #1 in rushing last year and that's because of the O line.

LOOLOLOlolopllolollllllpuke...

A) Except for you and like 9 horrible people I like it here.

B) I certainly don't bash every move... DB did very well in the draft. AND Im on record that I think Manning was a GOOD MOVE. I started a thread saying that the DB MUST go after manning.. I was just against trading Tebw because it would be a stupid move to trade you future away when you have no ******* clue what manning would bring to the table as a HURT aging QB who sat out a year.

C) LOL @ you for even suggesting it was the Oline that made the DB the #1 rushing team... Could have had something to do with the 700 yards the QB brought in. You sure as heel wasnt #1 without Tebow. with that same line.

Dont hurt your brain wondering why im here.. there are enough good fair people to have a decent convo with... there are also detestable vile people here as well but not enough to make this place not worth posting on.

Originally Posted by MOtorboat

Montana was traded to the Chiefs.

Thanks Cap obvious. You think your sharp just because your head is pointy.

You can play semantics all you want between FA and being traded. we all know the point is that old as dirt QB cant just restart all over again and win championships by them selves they need a special sitch.

Favre almost had one in Minny.

Denver wasn't going anywhere with what they had, so they upgraded. It will make the offense viable again, and will make a decent offensive line look even better.

And I always love the "the offense was the best rushing offense in the league but the offensive line had nothing to do with it" argument.

Ok, so a quick question. The offense lines up and gets in their position/stance. The defense lines up. Who calles out the blitz pickup and line adjustments?

Originally Posted by Cugel:1602228

Originally Posted by NightTerror218

He HAD a bad neck. He had disks fused. Not just nerve problem and can actually be severe. My mom had this exact same procedure. 2 years later not 100%.

True, but perhaps your mom is a bit older than Peyton Manning, and she probably doesn't have the training staff and elite medical facilities devoted to her rehab working out with her every day. And she might not be a highly conditioned athlete used to working out for hours every day of the year. So, there might be a slight difference.

That is all true but the fact that there is a higher chance if not being 100% with surgery then being 100%. I only used ny mom because it gives ne first hand experience with this exact procedure. If manning did not have all that training he would not be able to move neck or any where close to normal arm strength. He said he is not 100% but his 75% is better than most starting QBs in the NFL.

Originally Posted by ShooterJM

Ok, so a quick question. The offense lines up and gets in their position/stance. The defense lines up. Who calles out the blitz pickup and line adjustments?

The quarterback and the center. So, yes, that is a concern with Walton. However, I guarantee Peyton's center will know the calls he supposed to make.

It's the quarterback's job to identify the "MLB" which dictates how the center assigns blocking. Just a guess, but its my belief that Walton and Tebow both struggled with this mightily last year.

The run game is a little easier to manage...

Originally Posted by Cugel

As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.

this needs to be said and said again until it sinks in with everybody. Most here will have heard a commentator discuss how Manning breaks every huddle with three plays called, deciding which to run after he sees the defense. In the NFL leverage is king and the difference between being in the right play vs the wrong play is huge. That's more true for an OL than any other position.

Making a player's job easier is the same as making that player better. You only critique a player on what he does in relation to what you are asking him to do. It doesn't matter if he can't do X if you don't need him to do X. There's no better way to improve a player's performance than to simplify what they have to do on the field.

With Manning the OL will likely have the formational presnap advantage, and now have a predictable QB behind them. There's a reason QBs like Elway and Big Ben take a lot of sacks: they hold on to the ball and get outside the pocket, meaning the OL doesn't know what spot he's protecting. Manning obviously isn't like that. When the ball gets snapped, the OL knows what spot they have to protect. It won't be the same spot every snap--Manning is great at moving his pocket around to make things harder on the defense--but the OL will know their QB is where he's supposed to be every play.

And of course with Manning's quick release, the blocking won't need to hold up as long. I'd like to know what the difference in release time is from when Manning/Tebow decide to throw a ball until the time the ball is on the way. Whatever amount of time it is, when we're working in 2.9 second windows, every tenth makes the OL's job easier. The easier the job is, the easier it is to be good at it.

Clearly you can't win a SB unless you have a LOT of talent around Manning (or Marino for that matter). And NO! Denver currently has NOTHING to compare with Gary Zimmerman (HOF), T.D. (2000 yards - should be HOF), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Rod Smith (deserves consideration), Ed McCaffrey. There's nobody on Denver's current offense who can compare at all to these players.

Okay, since you said "compare" I think you can compare our guys to these guys. Obviously not at current levels of play, but in potential upside.

Zimmerman-Clady: after Clady's rookie season it wasn't farfetched to see a potential HOF career. Hasn't been as good lately, but could regain his form and get back into the conversation for best LT in the game.

Sharpe-Thomas et al: poor man's for sure, but JThomas could develop into a match up nightmare. Not saying I think he'll be a future HOFer, but we've got a group of TEs that should give us production.

McCaffrey-Decker: obvious comparison.

Smith-DThomas: potentially a more explosive #1 WR. It's not fair to any young WR to try and compare their intangibles to Rod Smith's, and I'm not doing that. But with Peyton Manning at the helm, DT can provide what RS did on the field.

Need to get a TD though.

Originally Posted by SOCALORADO.

There you go again, Joel with them negative waves.
Always with them negative waves.
Have a little faith, man.

Just trying to be a little more realistic than debating whether we win it all next year or "just" reach the Conference Championship. We're nowhere good enough adding one player, even a Hall of Famer, can achieve that. This is about assembling a championship TEAM, not faith in doing the impossible without the ability; that ship sailed for NY when EFX wouldn't get on board. Maybe you should've told THEM to "have faith."

Originally Posted by Cugel

He played every game for 13 years. Virtually every snap from 1998 through 2010. Getting hurt at some point in this league is inevitable. No, poor blocking isn't irrelevant. But a QB who can check out of plays, make quick decisions and get rid of the ball on time and on target DOES make the OL's job a LOT easier.

He played great until his line scattered to the four winds after a couple Super Bowl appearances; then he missed the whole season because he got hurt before it even started. That's the difference the line makes. Honestly, the spectacle of "great blitzers+great QB=championship" retaining credibility in Denver is baffling; one would have thought the mid-eighties Broncos disabused Denver of that fallacy.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Just close your eyes and compare Manning to Tebow. Remember Tebow running around holding onto the ball out there being afraid to throw the ball over the middle and then taking off and trying to run? That's not going to happen with Manning.

No, it's not; when protection breaks down that badly and quickly he'll collapse in a heap like Orton did, because he's every bit as much a statue. The sole small upside is we won't be subjected to claims he has to learn NFL starters must get the ball out in <3 seconds. By seasons end we may ALL close our eyes every time Manning steps to the line behind Walton. He's a classic pocket passer, and the era of the pocket passer is over unless you have a rock solid line. Brady and Manning used to be the only two examples to cite, but when the Colts SB line got auctioned to the highest bidder, Manning went down and left just Brady.

Originally Posted by Cugel

As for Orton, teams decided to blitz Orton because the OL wasn't that strong. And there was nothing Orton could do about it. He wasn't changing plays at the line, he was the epitome of a paint-by-the-numbers QB, doing what he was told.

I remember seeing defenders lining up in an obvious blitz and thinking "Uh-oh!" Because you just knew Orton couldn't deal with it.

Teams try that with Manning and his eyes just light up like a pin-ball machine because he KNOWS he has the chance for a big play. And defenses know it too. They've learned through years of trying that you better NOT try that because Manning will make you pay. He's deadly accurate with his throws.

That's actually true of MOST decent QBs IF they have the personnel to make plays on hot reads. The trouble is, again, assembling TEAMS of players rather than a couple hired guns complemented by a couple highly drafted rookies and a couple score scrubs. The epic failures off facing good passers with nothing but blitzes is why I'm sick of hearing "DL, DL, DL111" from folks who just mean "more blitzers; screw run stopping and any investment in a secondary!" Remember when people bashed Ebenezer Ekuban and John Engelberger for not rushing passers as well as they run stopped? Now it's Ayers' instead. Anyway....

Manning won't make blitzers pay unless his hot read 1) is open and 2) catches the ball. Otherwise it's 2nd, 3rd or 4th and 10 and you hope your QB gets up after the whistle. If we can't stop even 5 or 6 pass rushers that leaves 6 or 5 defenders to cover a maximum of 5 receivers; it's far from given anyone will get open and make a catch. Doing the latter was a challenge for Thomas at the start of last year and Decker at the end of it, and Decker has trouble getting open these days, too. If we or Manning count on that to make teams pay for blitzing, we're in trouble (hence I think we're in trouble.)

Originally Posted by Cugel

It's ironic that you mention Dan Marino, because Manning is probably the closest passer to Marino since Marino. But Manning is a far superior on-field general.

The only QB in NFL history to even compare with Manning as a field-general was Johnny Unitas who also called all his own plays. Brady comes to mind as well of course.

And if we had Jim Parker, Glenn Gressler, Raymond Berry, John Mackey and Lenny Moore ca. 1967, I wouldn't be worried, but we don't, so I am. Rav, not I, brought up Marino, but the comparison's sound, because both have very quick releases, no mobility and an awful supporting cast, though at least Marino had Stephenson (maybe Clady will offset that if he plays the next few seasons like his first instead of his last.) Unless we get him more help, Manning will win Denver as many Super Bowls as Marino won Miami: The difference is we've got two years, not a decade plus.

Speaking of Unitas, he came off the bench with an injury to lose to the Jets in SB III, then returned to it to watch Morrall finish his only Super Bowl victory. Call me crazy, but I think the Cowboys beat Caleb Hanie (making history very different; for one thing, SB champ Craig Morton might've stayed in Dallas instead of becoming the only QB to start and lose a SB for both Conferences.)

To the extent QB is all, Il prefer Otto Graham, who didn't call his own plays, but was 7-3 in championships in his 10 year career (as opposed to winning 3 in 17.) Either Graham was the best QB ever or the Browns were already pretty good when he showed up for that rookie championship (note: The possibilities are not mutually exclusive.) They slumped when he retired, but drafted Jim Brown two years later and soon found themselves in another championship despite the pathetic Tommy O'Connell succeeding Graham. The common theme was a great line (thus Lou Groza has more championships than Graham OR Brown.)

Originally Posted by Cugel

Clearly you can't win a SB unless you have a LOT of talent around Manning (or Marino for that matter). And NO! Denver currently has NOTHING to compare with Gary Zimmerman (HOF), T.D. (2000 yards - should be HOF), Shannon Sharpe (HOF), Rod Smith (deserves consideration), Ed McCaffrey. There's nobody on Denver's current offense who can compare at all to these players.

Which is why I'd very much like us to something about that, but apart from Manning the best player we've added is Tracey Porter, while surrendering our only DT worthy of the name. I realize we can't fix every problem over night, but paying Manning $20 million/year (or about 1/6 of our team payroll) severely ties our hands and jeopardizes his safety. I would rather have addressed that problem, even if it meant sticking with He Who Must Not Be Named for another year or two, because Manning will be retired then regardless, and whoever our QB is then will need the help even more badly.

Originally Posted by Cugel

So, I'd be surprised if Denver wins the SB this season. It's going to take a lot more talent addition to make them as good as the Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Giants, Packers, 49ers or Saints.

That, and that we'd better fix our line if we want Manning to finish the season, is all I'm saying. However, given his age and injury history, the only realistic conclusion is that by the time we can build a Super Bowl roster Manning won't be on it, which makes signing him a warm, fuzzy and incredibly expensive waste of time. Why not sign Bradshaw? He's already in Canton.

Originally Posted by Cugel

If teams can blitz the Broncos right up the middle and get in Manning's face that's a problem. No QB likes that. So, Walton's play is critical and I think not signing Saturday was a mistake. But, not all teams can generate that kind of inside pressure with 4 defenders. The Giants can which is a big reason they won 2 SBs. But not everybody is stacked on the DL like the NYG or Detroit.

If our only goal is lots of wins against teams who can't make the postseason, we could've stuck with what we had and been among the top NCAA teams. Beadles' play is just as critical, and Kupers recovery from injury, and Cladys, and Franklin looking less like one of those NCAA players, and all of them staying healthy, because the guys backing them are almost by definition worse. It's a bit premature to equate Thomas with Marvin Harrison, but that still wouldn't give us Wayne or Clark, so tackle will be just as important as guard. Even Peyton Manning can't complete a hot read to blanketed receivers (they're "NFL open." )

Originally Posted by Cugel

And if they blitz 5 or 6 somebody's going to be open. And Manning will hit that guy. Often for big yardage. With Orton they could blitz him because they didn't respect his arm. But, would you try that against Brady, Manning, Brees or Eli Manning? No. Especially Manning.

If they blitz 5 or 6 (only a nominal "blitz") that's one for each lineman plus the QB, so every single eligible receiver can be covered.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Well, that's the unduly negative view. Do the Broncos need to add talent? Sure. They are just two years removed from the McApocalypse when the team barely won 4 games. Two good drafts, plus some FAs who don't suck will help but this team is still a long ways away in overall talent from the other elite teams.

After two good drafts, Manning will be 37, a year younger than Elway was when he retired; we win a Super Bowl with him then or not at all. That's if we strike gold with nearly all those draft picks, because by my count we have major deficiencies at: LG, C, RT, #2 WR (if I'm generous,) DT, MLB, FS and SS. That's if I ignore the fact we have nothing behind McGahee and no FB worth mentioning, and accept that Fells, Tamme or Rosario is our TE of the future. It's not my $40 million, or I'd spend it differently.

Originally Posted by Cugel

Realistically, I'm hoping Manning can come back strong, stay healthy and take this team into the playoffs despite the tough first place schedule that has them playing the Steelers, Ravens, Saints, Patriots, and Falcons.

Tebow would have struggled to win 6 games against those teams. If Manning can win 10 and the division that would be all the proof we need. Then we make the big push in 2013 and 2014.

Realistically, if Manning takes this team back to the playoffs it will be by the same miracles that Tebow did last year, and we won't make it past the second round this time either, in which case we should've danced with the one who brung us and cost 1/20th as much, thereby freeing money to spend on players at OTHER positions of desperate need to get us over the top.

We don't know how many games Tebow would have won against this schedule, only that nearly every win would require herculean efforts of him OR Manning. Last year I figured Tebow would struggle to win four games, and was as shocked as anyone to see him double that. Sometimes, conventional wisdom as wrong, but I dislike fixing what isn't broken. That said, Manning does make the team better, even with the investment, but shipping our only other winning QB for a 4th and 6th round pick was needlessly betting the farm.

Originally Posted by Bullgator

Im saying its not Manning who is going to save you franchise... ITS YOU THAT MUST SAVE MANNING. and then maybe you could have a special year.

That's the crux of it, really.