Thread: A Little Clarification On Orton's Record...

Originally Posted by NameUsedBefore

Just last year Orton had two 40-rating games in which he "won".


I guess, at the same time, it isn't fair for me to go back into Cutler's career and point out how many of his "losses" came regardless of his play.... But I'm not the one who constantly brings up "21-12", which is more than a 16-game season.

If you want to go by just last year... If Cutler can play balls out and still be in position to lose against the Chargers at the end of the game, what exactly makes that picture look any prettier with Orton?

Again...every defensive stat brought up, and points allowed and yada, yada...makes me think that the idea of a "franchise" quarterback is just obsolete.

Could Cutler lead a team that was better all-around to the playoffs? Maybe. I'd like to think so...I spent a good chunk of change on his jersey.

But, the return in a trade might have been higher, plus his attitude bought him a ticket out of town.

Statistics aside, he's gone. Time to jump on the Orton bandwagon...I guess...

Heres the stats I like to see how each qb does in the red zone.

Att Comp Pct Yds Avg Lng TD Int 1st 1st% 20+ Sck Rate
Orton- 59 31 52.5 249 4.2 19 13 1 19 32.2 0 3 96.0

Cutler- 84 39 46.4 273 3.2 18 17 4 24 28.6 0 2 74.1

Orton was a 96 percent rate in the red zone with only 1 interception.

Originally Posted by Foochacho

Heres the stats I like to see how each qb does in the red zone.

Att Comp Pct Yds Avg Lng TD Int 1st 1st% 20+ Sck Rate
Orton- 59 31 52.5 249 4.2 19 13 1 19 32.2 0 3 96.0

Cutler- 84 39 46.4 273 3.2 18 17 4 24 28.6 0 2 74.1

Orton was a 96 percent rate in the red zone with only 1 interception.

Yes, but his defense...

Oh, shit...that doesn't work here.

Well, crap.

/thread (again)

Originally Posted by Foochacho

Heres the stats I like to see how each qb does in the red zone.

Att Comp Pct Yds Avg Lng TD Int 1st 1st% 20+ Sck Rate
Orton- 59 31 52.5 249 4.2 19 13 1 19 32.2 0 3 96.0

Cutler- 84 39 46.4 273 3.2 18 17 4 24 28.6 0 2 74.1

Orton was a 96 percent rate in the red zone with only 1 interception.

Those stats don't mean much if Orton can't move us down the field with his grandma arm.

Wasn't Cutler like one of the top in the league in 3rd down?

Originally Posted by MissouriBronc

Again...every defensive stat brought up, and points allowed and yada, yada...makes me think that the idea of a "franchise" quarterback is just obsolete.

Could Cutler lead a team that was better all-around to the playoffs? Maybe. I'd like to think so...I spent a good chunk of change on his jersey.

But, the return in a trade might have been higher, plus his attitude bought him a ticket out of town.

Statistics aside, he's gone. Time to jump on the Orton bandwagon...I guess...

No, a franchise QB isn't necessary when the other facets of the team are in place.

Do you think for a moment, just as one example, that the Colts win the Superbowl without Manning?

At the same time, could you have exchanged Trent Dilfer for any number of QBs and had the same result in 2000? Absolutely.

Now which category are we in?

Originally Posted by NameUsedBefore

If you want to go by just last year... If Cutler can play balls out and still be in position to lose against the Chargers at the end of the game, what exactly makes that picture look any prettier with Orton?

Orton put up 48 against the vikings winning 48-41. The vikings D destroys the chargers. His qb rate for that game 114.

We can cherry pick games and stats all night but whats it going to accomplish. These 2 played on different teams with different schemes and different players.
I think Orton can do great this season but we will have to wait and find out.

Jay... in his last 36 starts has had to play against teams that put up 30+ points on us 15 times. FIFTEEN out of 36. Thats nearly 50% of the time, he's playing against a team that scored 30+ times.

Just this last season.. out of 16 games... the Broncos had 9 (NINE) games in which we gave up 30+ points. Jay went 3-6

Orton last year.. had 4 games that the defense gave up 30+ points.... he was 1-3.

In 2005 (the last time he started bfore 2007)... he didn't start a game where the team gave up 30+ points.

I realize taht Jay is no longer here.. and Orton is our hope. But if you are going to throw around his "win-loss" record... you MUST be prepared to accept those that can see the REASONS behind those records. The w-l record is not an individual stat.

Originally Posted by getlynched47

Those stats don't mean much if Orton can't move us down the field with his grandma arm.

Wasn't Cutler like one of the top in the league in 3rd down?

does everyone besides Jay Cutler have a grandma arm? Have you ever watched Kyle Orton play? I see alot of bears game being in bears country. The Bears hold their camps in my town. The dude has got a good arm there is nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by Foochacho

Heres the stats I like to see how each qb does in the red zone.

Att Comp Pct Yds Avg Lng TD Int 1st 1st% 20+ Sck Rate
Orton- 59 31 52.5 249 4.2 19 13 1 19 32.2 0 3 96.0

Cutler- 84 39 46.4 273 3.2 18 17 4 24 28.6 0 2 74.1

Orton was a 96 percent rate in the red zone with only 1 interception.

thats a good stat to have. however, orton had matt forte in the redzone. the broncos completely ignore rbs in day one and it shows in the redzone. how might we have looked with forte last year? instead were stuck with injury prone torain, jordan and buckhalter. whooo hoooo im so excited!

Originally Posted by NameUsedBefore

No, a franchise QB isn't necessary when the other facets of the team are in place.

Do you think for a moment, just as one example, that the Colts win the Superbowl without Manning?

At the same time, could you have exchanged Trent Dilfer for any number of QBs and had the same result in 2000? Absolutely.

Now which category are we in?

Exactly. EXACTLY right.

Yo can NOT just win with just "any QB"..... thats why there has only been 6 SB wins since 1967 that haven't had a franchise (quality since they weren't franchise back then) QBs.

You 'can' win.. but the odds and chances are EXTREMELY hard compared to having a franchise QB on your team. Thats just so easy to understand.

Originally Posted by Ravage!!!

Jay... in his last 36 starts has had to play against teams that put up 30+ points on us 15 times. FIFTEEN out of 36. Thats nearly 50% of the time, he's playing against a team that scored 30+ times.

Just this last season.. out of 16 games... the Broncos had 9 (NINE) games in which we gave up 30+ points. Jay went 3-6

Orton last year.. had 4 games that the defense gave up 30+ points.... he was 1-3.

In 2005 (the last time he started bfore 2007)... he didn't start a game where the team gave up 30+ points.

I realize taht Jay is no longer here.. and Orton is our hope. But if you are going to throw around his "win-loss" record... you MUST be prepared to accept those that can see the REASONS behind those records. The w-l record is not an individual stat.

the win loss record is not an individual stat that is why I broke down earlier the points Orton and Jay put up in these games. I was trying to factor out the defense. And offensively Kyle wins and he wins with less.

Originally Posted by DenBronx

thats a good stat to have. however, orton had matt forte in the redzone. the broncos completely ignore rbs in day one and it shows in the redzone. how might we have looked with forte last year? instead were stuck with injury prone torain, jordan and buckhalter. whooo hoooo im so excited!

Not to mention.. when you are on a team that throws the ball 600 times in a season... the other team is NOT worried about the run.

We know how hard it is to complete a pass on 3rd and long...because the other team knows what you are going to do, and they can play 'pass defense' as well as put their ears back and rush/blitz or drop more into the passing lanes.

Thats how it was for the Broncos on EVERY play... and in the redzone, its just that much harder to clear out and open up the field since the safeties don't drop deep, and the LBs don't have to drop as deep or watch as much space.

Originally Posted by Foochacho

I was trying to factor out the defense.

Can't do this for a few reasons... The most easy to point out being turnovers and the effect on starting position; both of which Denver was last in, neither of which really have much to do with the offense.

You can also flip this around and say turnovers on the offense can negatively affect the defense. Completely correct, but you only had to watch the games last year to see this was pretty much an irrelevant event.

Originally Posted by Foochacho

Orton put up 48 against the vikings winning 48-41. The vikings D destroys the chargers. His qb rate for that game 114.

We can cherry pick games and stats all night but whats it going to accomplish. These 2 played on different teams with different schemes and different players.
I think Orton can do great this season but we will have to wait and find out.

The "team one beat team B.. and team B beat team C".. SOUNDs great.. but its not reality. Its not real. It doesn't even work for the BCS. Thats not a true gauge of anything in the NFL.

MANY times throughout the season a team will lose to someone they shouldn't have... so it throws out that entire scale.

When we won the Super Bowls... we never beat the Chiefs twice in that season..... does that mean the Chiefs were a better team than we were since they beat us?

ONly ONE Super Bowl team has gone completely undefeated. So that means they LOST at least ONE game. Does that mean the team that did beat them during the season was better than they were? No. So the fact that the Bears beat the Vikings, and the Vikings beat the Chargers... means nothing.

Originally Posted by Ravage!!!

Not to mention.. when you are on a team that throws the ball 600 times in a season... the other team is NOT worried about the run.

We know how hard it is to complete a pass on 3rd and long...because the other team knows what you are going to do, and they can play 'pass defense' as well as put their ears back and rush/blitz or drop more into the passing lanes.

Thats how it was for the Broncos on EVERY play... and in the redzone, its just that much harder to clear out and open up the field since the safeties don't drop deep, and the LBs don't have to drop as deep or watch as much space.

The lack of respect for the run was startling. It's one of the reasons I was reserved about Peyton Hillis. For instance, he ran all over the Jets, but I seemed to be the only one to point out the fact that the linebackers and DBs were already dropping back at the snap without any time to recognize the run first. This is what Denver's offense had to deal with and it shows what a terrific imbalance on offense can do (it also belies the most common statistic brought up which is Denver's run-capabilities last year based on YPC).