Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 33

Thread: Air France 447

  1. #16

    Default

    I know absolutely about flying. So this sounds like a guy shooting free throws leaning back on his heels so much his friggen toes are sticking up?

    I could have read that story without knowing the result and guessed they were going to crash when they kept calling for the senior pilot and he didn't show up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaded View Post
    Y’all know I’m an OL Groupie but I think Jeudy is going to be worth missing out on a T, knock on wood.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Adopted Bronco:
    Paul George
    Posts
    29,260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    I know absolutely about flying. So this sounds like a guy shooting free throws leaning back on his heels so much his friggen toes are sticking up?

    I could have read that story without knowing the result and guessed they were going to crash when they kept calling for the senior pilot and he didn't show up.
    I read the story last week. I think only 2-3 minutes elapsed between when they called for the Captain and he got there.

    This thing spun out of control quickly.

    I read the book "Outliers" a couple years ago, and in one chapter he talks about airline crashes. In almost every single commercial airline crash, 2-3 factors are almost always in play.

    1. Crew that are not familiar with each other/haven't worked together much. This hinders communication, which is essential.

    2. Bad or unusual weather.

    3. Flying an unfamiliar route/new airport for the crew.

    4. General lack of experience.

    5. Poorly defined roles -- usually tied to #1, crew works against each other.

    6. Lack of sleep.

    A crew can usually overcome one or maybe two of these factors. But 2 or more together, along with mechanical failure of some kind (iced airspeed sensors) and it spells almost certain doom.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    maryland usa
    Posts
    42,462

    Default

    Buff, was your old boy in the military?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Posts
    22,387

    Default

    I just don't get it. I'm no pilot but know enough about planes and players enough flight Sims over the last 20 years to know that if the computer is screaming constant stall warnings that its a really dumb idea to pull back on the controls. Basic instinct is put the nose down and throttle up. Wow. Scary stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    All must hail NostraTimmy!
    Quote Originally Posted by chazoe60 View Post
    Nostratimmy was right again. All hail nostratimmy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    I’m the hobbit.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Taysom Hill
    Posts
    40,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bronconut View Post
    Buff, was your old boy in the military?
    Nah, but he's been a pilot for 20+ years and he used to work on Eglin AFB as a private instructor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy! View Post
    I just don't get it. I'm no pilot but know enough about planes and players enough flight Sims over the last 20 years to know that if the computer is screaming constant stall warnings that its a really dumb idea to pull back on the controls. Basic instinct is put the nose down and throttle up. Wow. Scary stuff.
    Airbus jets essentially fly themselves. These guys had flown Airbuses for virtually their whole careers is my understanding. So, they had probably never encountered an actual stall in an Airbus and therefore were conditioned to ignore the stall warnings thinking the system would correct that issue. Kind of scary considering it's one of the basic tenants of flying and never would have happened in a Boeing.

  6. The Following 2 Users High Fived Buff For This Post:


  7. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Four Corners
    Adopted Bronco:
    Derek Wolfe
    Posts
    12,263

    Default

    I think the side stick design philosophy on the Airbus is insane. I can't think of another control system that allows two independent inputs and then averages them. Wow. Think if we had that in cars....

  8. The Following 3 Users High Fived BigDaddyBronco For This Post:


  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Adopted Bronco:
    Paul George
    Posts
    29,260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    Nah, but he's been a pilot for 20+ years and he used to work on Eglin AFB as a private instructor.



    Airbus jets essentially fly themselves. These guys had flown Airbuses for virtually their whole careers is my understanding. So, they had probably never encountered an actual stall in an Airbus and therefore were conditioned to ignore the stall warnings thinking the system would correct that issue. Kind of scary considering it's one of the basic tenants of flying and never would have happened in a Boeing.
    Right. In this guy's mind, he was sending full thrust to the engines, and assumed (incorrectly) that the plane would not let him put it in an attitude that would create a stall. But the computer had switched to a regime where he had more control, and the ability to stall the plane.

    It is scary, and it's amazing the domino effect of events.

    If the Captain stays in the cockpit just about 2 minutes longer, probably none of this happens, and we never even hear of Air France 447, plus there would still be no awareness of this blind-spot.

  10. The Following User High Fived NightTrainLayne For This Post:


  11. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Orleans, LA
    Adopted Bronco:
    DT
    Posts
    41,696

    Default

    Great read, thanks for posting it Beef. The thing I kept thinking while reading it was, damn, I'm no pilot... But even limited experience with microsoft flight simulator taught me to drop the nose in a stall. I get the airbus flying itself thing, but at some point you have to know, well, it's not working, and revert to your training. These guys had to have flown a little cessna or something in their lives that isn't completely computer controlled.

  12. The Following 3 Users High Fived Davii For This Post:


  13. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    colorado
    Posts
    26,922

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyBronco View Post
    I think the side stick design philosophy on the Airbus is insane. I can't think of another control system that allows two independent inputs and then averages them. Wow. Think if we had that in cars....
    We do.

    Women in the passenger seats.
    The Plan at the moment:

    Draft: Trade a 3rd and 6th this year to a team to move up and get a 2nd next year (this will happen).

    Players I want:
    Jake Ferguson (Jake Butt) or Jelani Woods or Jeremy Ruckert or Cade Otten (owen daniels) at TE- All 4th rd or later.
    Troy Anderson LB 3rd/4th rd (yay Timmy!)
    Neil Farrell, JR DL- run stuffer- bye purcell

  14. The Following 2 Users High Fived underrated29 For This Post:


  15. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Posts
    22,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    Nah, but he's been a pilot for 20+ years and he used to work on Eglin AFB as a private instructor.



    Airbus jets essentially fly themselves. These guys had flown Airbuses for virtually their whole careers is my understanding. So, they had probably never encountered an actual stall in an Airbus and therefore were conditioned to ignore the stall warnings thinking the system would correct that issue. Kind of scary considering it's one of the basic tenants of flying and never would have happened in a Boeing.
    I get the Airbus thing (what a retarded design) but still. The article says that eventually the air speed sensors came back online so all instruments were working properly. U can't tell me that they don't have a pitch indicator somewhere in that cockpit. If the nose is up 15 degrees and the computer is screaming stall is it really that hard to figure out? I know these guys were reliant on the aircraft itself, but still. Im reliant on my calculator but if I type on 2+3 and it tells me 17, I know something isn't right
    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    All must hail NostraTimmy!
    Quote Originally Posted by chazoe60 View Post
    Nostratimmy was right again. All hail nostratimmy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    I’m the hobbit.

  16. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Taysom Hill
    Posts
    40,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy! View Post
    I get the Airbus thing (what a retarded design) but still. The article says that eventually the air speed sensors came back online so all instruments were working properly. U can't tell me that they don't have a pitch indicator somewhere in that cockpit. If the nose is up 15 degrees and the computer is screaming stall is it really that hard to figure out? I know these guys were reliant on the aircraft itself, but still. Im reliant on my calculator but if I type on 2+3 and it tells me 17, I know something isn't right
    Yeah, it's hard to understand how two experienced pilots could stall a plane into the ocean from 40,000 feet.

    One other thing my dad said is that when those computers were malfunctioning and then correcting themselves, it's likely that the pilots were being inundated with screen fulls of information that would be almost impossible to process quickly when you aren't under duress, let alone if there are multiple failures and alarms sounding. Who knows how big of a contributing factor the chaos and misinformation was.

  17. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Big Sky Country
    Posts
    22,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    Yeah, it's hard to understand how two experienced pilots could stall a plane into the ocean from 40,000 feet.

    One other thing my dad said is that when those computers were malfunctioning and then correcting themselves, it's likely that the pilots were being inundated with screen fulls of information that would be almost impossible to process quickly when you aren't under duress, let alone if there are multiple failures and alarms sounding. Who knows how big of a contributing factor the chaos and misinformation was.
    I guess the biggest thing I'm taking from this story is that if I ever fly on an Airbus I'm going to get good and loaded b4 I set foot on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by King87 View Post
    All must hail NostraTimmy!
    Quote Originally Posted by chazoe60 View Post
    Nostratimmy was right again. All hail nostratimmy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOtorboat View Post
    I’m the hobbit.

  18. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    New Orleans, LA
    Adopted Bronco:
    DT
    Posts
    41,696

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buff View Post
    Yeah, it's hard to understand how two experienced pilots could stall a plane into the ocean from 40,000 feet.

    One other thing my dad said is that when those computers were malfunctioning and then correcting themselves, it's likely that the pilots were being inundated with screen fulls of information that would be almost impossible to process quickly when you aren't under duress, let alone if there are multiple failures and alarms sounding. Who knows how big of a contributing factor the chaos and misinformation was.
    One would think that would be a part of their training, being able to cut through the "fog of war". Being able to make sound, rational decisions in a chaotic environment. Having the lives of hundreds in your hands requires no less. If chaos and stress aren't a part of pilot training then the system is failing us all.

  19. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Taysom Hill
    Posts
    40,845

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Davii View Post
    One would think that would be a part of their training, being able to cut through the "fog of war". Being able to make sound, rational decisions in a chaotic environment. Having the lives of hundreds in your hands requires no less. If chaos and stress aren't a part of pilot training then the system is failing us all.
    No argument - I'm not even sure if that was really the case... I think my dad sort of prides himself as a Boeing pilot and was poking holes in the European Airbus mentality that engineers know better than pilots. So he was pointing out that all of these fool proof computer readings aren't worth a damn in a crisis, and Airbus pilots are ill-equipped to deal with something like that.

    I suspect that's probably a gross oversimplification of what actually happened - but there is probably some truth to it.

  20. The Following 3 Users High Fived Buff For This Post:


  21. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Adopted Bronco:
    Richard Simmons
    Posts
    30,177

    Default

    Excellent conversation guys. A Falcon jet flew over the tailgate.

  22. The Following 2 Users High Fived BeefStew25 For This Post:


Go
Shop AFC Champions and Super Bowl gear at the official online Pro Shop of the Denver Broncos!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Tour de France
    By frenchfan in forum Other Sports
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-01-2010, 02:22 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
status.broncosforums.com - BroncosForums status updates
Partner with the USA Today Sports Media Group