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Thread: McCoy is the real problem...

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DenBronx View Post
    Studesville is a likeable guy but he isnt that great of a RB coach. If this team does as bad as last year I can see an overhaul on the offense coming.

    Royal will likely be traded. I see no point in keeping Larsen, yes he made a good catch last night but he isnt the bruising FB we need. McCoy is off the wall with his play calling, I just dont get most of his calls when the game is on the line.

    I think we looking at a new OC and RB coach when the year ends. Possibly OL coach too. Then we need a better RB and QB.

    The defense has been impressing me though. Not top 10 impressing but at least we can see glimpses of what is to come. Bunkley has been a beast! Miller looks more and more like the right decision. But were still a few pieces away.

    Still alot of work for this team though.
    Better talent can make a coach look like a genius. Right now we don't we don't have a reallygood running back corps.

    I honestly don't think McCoy's play calling is the problem. Execution by the players seems be the culprit to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tned View Post
    You really think they will move Franklin to guard? When they drafted him, they said his natural position was tackle, but that he could play guard. I guess if they think he's failing at the NFL level, they might change their mind.
    Robert Gallery's "natural" position was tackle too, but he makes a better guard. Ditto Franklin, IMO. If it's to protect Tebow's blind side, then they are absolutely making a change. He's not a good enough pass protector for that, especially since Timmy holds the ball too low and too long. They'll get a true left tackle to do it, somebody smart and capable of the footwork changes needed to make a great left tackle into a great blind-side right tackle. It's potentially a good tackle year (depending on juniors), and could be great up top, where we'd be drafting. Kalil is the real deal, and Fox is VERY familiar with his brother (who I also wanted badly coming out of college).

    If they go with a RH QB instead, then maybe we don't move Franklin next year, but I still think he's gonna move. We'll see. If it's Tebow behind him, then he's a guard - and I think our line is MUCH better for it. He's a potential monster in the run game, in a way even Kuper isn't.

    Bookended by Franklin and Kuper, I could finally see if Walton's lapses are unavoidable or caused by the collapse happening on his left side on every other play. JD still strikes me as a very game center who fights hard and is willing to get dirty. He may be overmatched and destined for more of a backup role, or he may just not be able to carry Beadles like an anchor but can carry his own weight if allowed. I'd like to find out.

    But Khalil is a good run blocker too. The trenches are where everything starts, and I'd love to keep our QB upright and have run-game stalwarts everywhere along the OL and THEN see what happens.

    As long as that QB isn't Orton, anyway. I've seen that show before.

    ~G
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by G_Money View Post
    Robert Gallery's "natural" position was tackle too, but he makes a better guard. Ditto Franklin, IMO. If it's to protect Tebow's blind side, then they are absolutely making a change. He's not a good enough pass protector for that, especially since Timmy holds the ball too low and too long. They'll get a true left tackle to do it, somebody smart and capable of the footwork changes needed to make a great left tackle into a great blind-side right tackle. It's potentially a good tackle year (depending on juniors), and could be great up top, where we'd be drafting. Kalil is the real deal, and Fox is VERY familiar with his brother (who I also wanted badly coming out of college).

    If they go with a RH QB instead, then maybe we don't move Franklin next year, but I still think he's gonna move. We'll see. If it's Tebow behind him, then he's a guard - and I think our line is MUCH better for it. He's a potential monster in the run game, in a way even Kuper isn't.

    Bookended by Franklin and Kuper, I could finally see if Walton's lapses are unavoidable or caused by the collapse happening on his left side on every other play. JD still strikes me as a very game center who fights hard and is willing to get dirty. He may be overmatched and destined for more of a backup role, or he may just not be able to carry Beadles like an anchor but can carry his own weight if allowed. I'd like to find out.

    But Khalil is a good run blocker too. The trenches are where everything starts, and I'd love to keep our QB upright and have run-game stalwarts everywhere along the OL and THEN see what happens.

    As long as that QB isn't Orton, anyway. I've seen that show before.

    ~G
    He would be a monster of a Guard. If he was lining up next to Clady, we might actually be able to punch it in from the 1/2 yard line.

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  6. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXBRONC View Post
    Better talent can make a coach look like a genius. Right now we don't we don't have a reallygood running back corps.

    I honestly don't think McCoy's play calling is the problem. Execution by the players seems be the culprit to me.
    Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.

    Yes, we have a lot of problems offensively regarding talent, but we also have a fair bit of talent that has not been used wisely either. We have a two-time all-pro left tackle, we have a steadfast right guard, the rest of the offensive line has been gathered via the draft and is steadily improving week in and week out, they're starting to gel as a unit, it's rather hard to come together when you have two sophomore lineman and a rookie gelling with two linemen who have been part of the same unit for years, we may have to replace one or two, but no one can not deny that the lockout hurt the line as a unit. Another thing I noticed is that we've started to use less and less of the zone and more of the man and the results are better. McCoy runs the offense in accordance with Fox's philosophy, it's as apparent as the lack of good coaches on the offensive side of the ball, hell...if anyone watched film on Royal they'd have realized he's better suited as a slot receiver or the Y position, not the in the X or Z positions. Lloyd should be the flank receiver with Decker at the split receiver spot, instead they didn't watch film or that's my opinion and should have kept Royal at the slot where he's the most dangerous. That's not on Fox, everything is on McCoy...including starting Orton, McCoy could have made a case for any player to start, he's the offensive mind of this team (which is rather depressing) but still, it's his call over Fox's even, because it's his offense...Fox can not run the offense - that would be like Shanahan calling the plays and making the decisions on defense...it's rather a moronic idea. If Fox has that much power over offense after what went down in Carolina then we're going to get a lot worse then we are now, he's made some bad decisions regarding the offense already in his career. Either way, McCoy holds a lot of the responsibility as do the other coaches on that side of the ball. It's not like they have nothing to work with...personally, I would love to run this offense with some of the talent we have, though I guarantee we wouldn't be using the Erhardt-Perkins or any variant of that particular system at least not as the base system for the offense.

    McCoy has to shoulder the responsibility for his short comings, just as any other coach.
    - Doesn't bother me what people think, the mere fact what I think seems to bother others speaks volumes about them more then myself! -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.
    Dan Henning actually runs the Air Coryell offense, not Erhardt-Perkins.
    “The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco View Post
    Dan Henning actually runs the Air Coryell offense, not Erhardt-Perkins.
    I'm sorry Bosco, you're correct...Dan Henning has been noted to run the Air-Coryell, because he has utilized several parts of that system into his own and because he is considered to be from the Gibbs coaching tree. However, stating that the base offense he runs is the Air-Coryell is a bit of a slight on that offensive system to say the least, he utilized parts of the Erhardt offense as well as other spread offensive systems including what could be considered an Option, the Wing-T, Power-I and of course the dreary Wild Cat. So it would be easy to say that he runs the Air-Coryell, he did in San Diego, but he ran the Erhardt in 2000 and has experience in the offense prior to that. If you go back and watch the games you can find from his stint in Carolina and in Miami you'll see parts of the Erhardt and other spread offenses in his play calling.

    It should be noted that McCoy was also supposedly under Jeff Davidson, but he was more or less a bona fide ground game coordinator in Carolina, he completely sucked in Carolina even worse then Henning as the offensive coordinator, though still neither bodes well for McCoy.
    - Doesn't bother me what people think, the mere fact what I think seems to bother others speaks volumes about them more then myself! -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    I'm sorry Bosco, you're correct...Dan Henning has been noted to run the Air-Coryell, because he has utilized several parts of that system into his own and because he is considered to be from the Gibbs coaching tree. However, stating that the base offense he runs is the Air-Coryell is a bit of a slight on that offensive system to say the least, he utilized parts of the Erhardt offense as well as other spread offensive systems including what could be considered an Option, the Wing-T, Power-I and of course the dreary Wild Cat. So it would be easy to say that he runs the Air-Coryell, he did in San Diego, but he ran the Erhardt in 2000 and has experience in the offense prior to that. If you go back and watch the games you can find from his stint in Carolina and in Miami you'll see parts of the Erhardt and other spread offenses in his play calling.

    It should be noted that McCoy was also supposedly under Jeff Davidson, but he was more or less a bona fide ground game coordinator in Carolina, he completely sucked in Carolina even worse then Henning as the offensive coordinator, though still neither bodes well for McCoy.
    The Air Coryell offense is often run out of spread sets (see Indy and Dallas) but yes, coaches are always stealing bits and pieces of different schemes from one another. These days the lines are being increasingly blurred to the point you can only tell offenses apart my their nomenclature.

    I was cautiously optimistic on McCoy, and figured that a couple years under McDaniels might have taught him something about offensive scheming and game planning, but he has been rather unimpressive since he took over the offense. Still, I think Fox bears alot of blame for that. Fox hasn't been shy about his insistence of a conservative offense and McCoy's play calling has definitely changed since the end of 2010.
    “The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather in a lack of will.”

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  12. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco View Post
    The Air Coryell offense is often run out of spread sets (see Indy and Dallas) but yes, coaches are always stealing bits and pieces of different schemes from one another. These days the lines are being increasingly blurred to the point you can only tell offenses apart my their nomenclature.

    I was cautiously optimistic on McCoy, and figured that a couple years under McDaniels might have taught him something about offensive scheming and game planning, but he has been rather unimpressive since he took over the offense. Still, I think Fox bears alot of blame for that. Fox hasn't been shy about his insistence of a conservative offense and McCoy's play calling has definitely changed since the end of 2010.
    The biggest problem with offensive coordinators now more then in the past is that many of them are raised in a set offensive system and usually they adopt it as the base offense for which to build upon, sometimes they'll even adopt another system along the way and believe the two are interchangeable, as I believe McCoy has, I haven't seen much of anything that screams that he's studious of the change or for that matter a true student of the game. I wholeheartedly agree that good coordinators infuse different parts of different schemes or systems, but they must also be knowledgeable enough to know when to continue with a system or change it, even when to add to it. I don't believe there is a pure offensive system remaining in the NFL, their all choppy but worse is when the offense in question doesn't work.

    I remember that you had faith in McCoy prior to the season, and I was myself against the idea of him remaining and still am. The problem was or at least IMHO, that he really has learned his craft from those coaches that are somewhat mediocre, Henning was an awful offensive coordinator three-fourths of the time, Davidson was worse without question and McDaniels, he really has proven to be worse then people thought since his time in New England. Granted I am not a fan of the Erhardt-Perkins or other spread offensive systems, I am more of an Ohio River Offense fan myself.
    - Doesn't bother me what people think, the mere fact what I think seems to bother others speaks volumes about them more then myself! -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MileHighCrew View Post
    Balls to go for it? It was stupid to go for it. In a tight game up by 4 you kick it everytime.
    I agreed with going for it. If you gain two yards than you win, if you dont, then your defense has to stop them from going 98 yards. You ALWAYS go for it in that situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    Sincerely, I have to disagree... Granted, talent can compensate for short comings as a coach, a great coach can develop talent from nothing, a bad coach can neither develop a scheme or instill a system to utilize greater talent - think about it TX, McCoy learned two variations of the same system from two of the worst coaches to utilize that system and is the only offense he knows in the whole of his career thus far, Dan Henning and then Josh McDaniels, one used the more general Erhardt-Perkins or the variant thereof and his offenses were horrible, almost downright awful. Josh McDaniels the other who used more of a Air-Erhardt variant, well look at his offenses since leaving New England...it's not like McCoy has proven to be anything more then those who taught him those two variants. He hasn't proven a lick of solid coaching ability since coming to Denver, and it's rather obvious. He's not the next Carmichael, Payton, Mularkey, Arians, Weiss or even Whisenhunt.

    Yes, we have a lot of problems offensively regarding talent, but we also have a fair bit of talent that has not been used wisely either. We have a two-time all-pro left tackle, we have a steadfast right guard, the rest of the offensive line has been gathered via the draft and is steadily improving week in and week out, they're starting to gel as a unit, it's rather hard to come together when you have two sophomore lineman and a rookie gelling with two linemen who have been part of the same unit for years, we may have to replace one or two, but no one can not deny that the lockout hurt the line as a unit. Another thing I noticed is that we've started to use less and less of the zone and more of the man and the results are better. McCoy runs the offense in accordance with Fox's philosophy, it's as apparent as the lack of good coaches on the offensive side of the ball, hell...if anyone watched film on Royal they'd have realized he's better suited as a slot receiver or the Y position, not the in the X or Z positions. Lloyd should be the flank receiver with Decker at the split receiver spot, instead they didn't watch film or that's my opinion and should have kept Royal at the slot where he's the most dangerous. That's not on Fox, everything is on McCoy...including starting Orton, McCoy could have made a case for any player to start, he's the offensive mind of this team (which is rather depressing) but still, it's his call over Fox's even, because it's his offense...Fox can not run the offense - that would be like Shanahan calling the plays and making the decisions on defense...it's rather a moronic idea. If Fox has that much power over offense after what went down in Carolina then we're going to get a lot worse then we are now, he's made some bad decisions regarding the offense already in his career. Either way, McCoy holds a lot of the responsibility as do the other coaches on that side of the ball. It's not like they have nothing to work with...personally, I would love to run this offense with some of the talent we have, though I guarantee we wouldn't be using the Erhardt-Perkins or any variant of that particular system at least not as the base system for the offense.

    McCoy has to shoulder the responsibility for his short comings, just as any other coach.
    I have to disagree a little bit here. Yes, McCoy's schemes and play calls aren't exactly imaginative or groundbreaking, but you do expect to gain more than a yard on a simple run between the tackles with a 235 lb RB. This is very similar to the same type of running game that Carolina used for years very effectively. The same coaching pieces are in place. The difference? Execution. We currently have an interior O-line that gets pushed into the backfield on running plays and a QB who cannot compensate by sliding in the pocket when he gets pressured.

    From all accounts, the pass protection wasn't bad in the Tennessee game. Orton just made bad reads and was inaccurate when he did feel a little pressure (or phantom pressure as seen by our 1st and goal from the 2 yard line throw away as soon as his first read wasn't there, even though there was no pressure). When your offensive line can't even run a HB iso play or a run off tackle and get 3 yards anywhere on the field in any down and distance scenario, you are pretty handcuffed as the the plays you can call.

    If McCoy was just calling bubble screen after bubble screen or calling the same plays that didn't work over and over, I can see thrashing him about it, but this offense can't even execute a screen pass to the RB effectively because Orton cannot throw for shit while backpedaling and inviting the blitz upfield. He panics and throws it away and has no accuracy when his feet are moving.

    Running plays are pretty simple, you either go right or left and you pick the gap to run through. If the O-line can't block it correctly or is constantly getting pushed back, those run plays don't work. Our O-line has been atrocious at blocking runs between the tackles and McGahee just isn't fast enough to run outside, he gets rundown before he reaches the edge. Much like the Moreno hate going on, I still can't place too much blame on McCoy for the offense seeing as how he has an O-line that can't consistently block for a 3 yard run and a QB who can't throw effectively without 5 seconds to wait for his #1 WR to uncover, a clean pocket, and set feet - and even then he gets too many passes batted down or over/under throws his WRs.


    “Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.” -Winston Churchill

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    So let me get this straight. I want to make sure I have it right.

    During McDaniels' time (can't call it an era) people complained about 3-4 straight passes in the RZ and settling for a FG.

    Now with Fox we are complaining about 4 straight runs? We complained about not having a killer instinct and going for the wins to complaining about not kicking a FG and being 'safe.'

    Got it.

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    I didn't mind the running down from the 1 yard line. I have the same belief, that with 4 attempts, SURELY you can get a single yard.... thats all you need. More things can go wrong with a pass than a run, and you just need one yard. Didn't have a problem with the play calls as I did with the complete lack of executing. Plus, if you fail, you have them on the 1. That generally forces an offense to be conservative on the first down to get OUT of the endzone so that any penalty isn't a safety.


    I didn't want McCoy anyway. But it seems his playcalling isn't worse than what we had with the previous HC.
    (the previous comment was not directed at any particular individual and was not intended to slander,disrespect or offend any reader of said statement)

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