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Thread: Football X & Os

  1. #1

    Default Football X & Os

    This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

    I do have some questions.

    1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

    2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

    3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
    (like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

    4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.

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    2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

    For the Broncos...play action, definitely, but if a safety is cheating up and with Cutler's arm, he can audible Royal into it, it would work too.

    3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
    (like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

    Probably the weakside linebacker and the backside defensive end, once he makes sure the quarterback didn't make the fake.

    I think I can answer those two for you Harold.
    *The statements above are my opinions, unless they are links, because then they are links, which wouldn't make them my opinions, and I suppose stats aren't necessarily opinion, but they are certainly presented to support an opinion. Proceed accordingly.

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  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissouriBronc View Post
    2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

    For the Broncos...play action, definitely, but if a safety is cheating up and with Cutler's arm, he can audible Royal into it, it would work too.

    3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
    (like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

    Probably the weakside linebacker and the backside defensive end, once he makes sure the quarterback didn't make the fake.

    I think I can answer those two for you Harold.
    playaction goes without saying. Most big plays are results of PA and the DB misreading. But I suspect a post route is extremely lethal in man alignments more so than in zones. I know one of the reason for the cover 2 and especially TB cover two is the fact that it takes out the big plays esp. by post routes.

    In any case, thanks for taking the time to answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldthebarrel View Post
    This idea should have been done a long time ago if it hasnt already and just got away.

    I do have some questions.

    1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.

    2. I remember the SB video where the Broncos had Smith on a post route which ended in a td. In what situations are post routes most effective/lethal?

    3. Who usually has the responsibility to contain the backside on a stretch run?
    (like I think it was Larsen who lost containment on the long td by T.J's counter), but I thought it would be the other side OLB.

    4. I have a vague understanding the names of each receiving route. What I lack knowledge of is in what situations each route generally has the highest success rate.

    I'll take a stab at #1 and #4, since MB hit #2 & #3.

    1. In a third and long it's difficult to attack a zone for a first down. That's why most teams go to some form of zone or zone/man in those types of situations.

    4. I'm not sure it's really helpful to think of it in these terms. For each different defensive line-up and/or defender technique being used each route will have differing success rates. A sign of a good Offensive team and Offensive coaching is to take advantage of particular defensive alignments and techniques by calling the particular route that exploits it.
    Last edited by NightTrainLayne; 12-05-2008 at 11:51 AM.

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    I remember I made this thread on the freak a while ago and it worked for about 5 minutes and then it got taken into broncos talk, and then into bullshit. It would be nice to keep this open because I loved that thread while it lasted.

    SHORYUKEN!

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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldthebarrel View Post
    playaction goes without saying. Most big plays are results of PA and the DB misreading. But I suspect a post route is extremely lethal in man alignments more so than in zones. I know one of the reason for the cover 2 and especially TB cover two is the fact that it takes out the big plays esp. by post routes.

    In any case, thanks for taking the time to answer.
    This is why the PA worked so well in that situation. Robinson was cheating up to stop the run (TD Baby!), and got caught. He had the deep zone responsibility there, and let Smith get behind him.

    A post can also work well in zones if the QB can time the throw to the receiver when he is "between zones" or between defenders so to speak.

    However, if a defender plays a man, bump and run technique, and stays inside of the receiver, then it a post probably isn't going to work so well.

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    And since it was the one I can answer best due to short amount of time to type, to #3, when I played backside contain was always done by backside linebacker.

    SHORYUKEN!

  10. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by NightTrainLayne View Post
    I'll take a stab at #1 and #4, since MB hit #2 & #3.

    1. In a third and long it's difficult to attack a zone for a first down. That's why most teams go to some form of zone or zone/man in those types of situations.

    4. I'm not sure it's really helpful to think of it in these terms. For each different defensive line-up and/or defender technique being used each route will have differeng success rates. A sign of a good Offensive team and Offensive coaching is to take advantage of particular defensive alignments and techniques by calling the particular route that exploits it.
    But what routes are usually run. I read somewhere that the deep comeback and the ten yards out are often used to attack zones.
    In any case, if you were the coach what would you play?

    4. But that is exactly what Peyton Manning is a master of.
    They line up early, and wait until they give away their scheme. When they do, he has 2-5 or more plays to audible into.
    For instance he often audibles into a slant if there is signs of lb blitzing.
    The same goes for Brady.

    Thanks for the answer, and as I said this is something I dont really know too well so I am to an extent playing the devils advocate.

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  12. #9

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    Just found a nice site with some great images of the passing trees.

    http://gobluemichiganwolverine.blogs...sing-tree.html







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  14. #10

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    Also if you ever wondered how the zone blocking running is done, Brian Billick at nfl.com videos has some really nice explanations. Clinton Portis as well explains in a video the lethality of it, when to cut back, the reason for cut-blocking the back side and more.

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    In my opinion, the best time to run a post (this only works with a WR-QB combo that have complete faith in each other) is actually against a zone, preferably a Cover 2, or a zone blitz. There will always be a spot open in the deep middle of the field in those types of zones. For a QB-WR tandem that doesn't have that faith, the best is when it's straight man coverage, and one of the safeties is in man as well.

    Backside contain is typically done by the backside DE, which is why people always get on them for driving down the line instead of just coming around from the back.

    As for the best route to run on a 3rd and long against a zone, it all depends on the zone. A cover 2 zone will leave a huge hole in between the flat zone and the deep zone because there aren't any outside zones in that coverage, so a corner route or deep out can be killers. In a Cover 3, it's a bit more difficult, but you should be able to find the same openings because they again only have deep, middle, and flat zones. However, in a Cover 3 it's more difficult to get the ball there because a CB is usually running back to cover his third of the deep zone.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Zweems56 View Post
    I remember I made this thread on the freak a while ago and it worked for about 5 minutes and then it got taken into broncos talk, and then into bullshit. It would be nice to keep this open because I loved that thread while it lasted.
    Any chance of a X and O's type chalk board type display that can show those that are not up on all the current terms and plays??

    I'm sure the kids and women folk would learn something from it.. For that matter some of the significant others might just learn something from it..

    Perhaps even getting a utube piece of a few plays and dissecting it on the chalk board..



    we could ask the coach on certain plays.. to break down what happened..

    Anyone up for something like that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldthebarrel View Post
    1. If you know your opponent are in a zone(cover 2/3) how would you attack it through passing. Let's say it is a third and long situation for starters.
    The best way to attack zone coverage is to recognize it at the LOS before the ball is snapped. Your best bet is to not have a specific route, but rather a route with a read. Your WR and QB should be able to both read defensive zones and the WR should be able to find an open spot in the zone and the QB should be able to find the WR. A QB should be able to look at a zone defense and know where their WR is going to sit down. This is why it is critical for defenses to show different looks even if it is running the same coverage. This is a big reason why our defense fails IMO because we are not good at disguising our plays or showing different looks.

    It is difficult on 3rd and long, obviously because not only do you have to find a soft spot in the zone, but you have to be aware of the first down marker. That is why Cover 2/3 is a popular call on 3rd down. Unless you have a QB who can fit the ball into tight spaces or a WR who can break tackles, it is difficult to convert a 3rd and long unless a defender makes a mistake.

    You will often times see teams take the underneath to a RB because your RB is almost always open out of the backfield with a Cover 2/3 and your RB has the best chance of breaking a couple tackles to get to the 1st down marker. You will often see a RB sit in the middle of the field on 3rd and lets say 13. It is pretty common to see the RB pickup 9-12 yards and leave the offense with a 4th and 1 or 2.

    If it is late in a game where you know the offense is in a 4-down situation, you may see less Cover 2/3 because you dont want to leave them with an easy 4th down conversion. OTOH, you may see a defense not even consider the first down marker if a TD is needed to win and there is very little time on the clock in which case you will see a very deep prevent defense.

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  21. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jrwiz View Post
    Any chance of a X and O's type chalk board type display that can show those that are not up on all the current terms and plays??

    I'm sure the kids and women folk would learn something from it.. For that matter some of the significant others might just learn something from it..

    Perhaps even getting a utube piece of a few plays and dissecting it on the chalk board..



    we could ask the coach on certain plays.. to break down what happened..

    Anyone up for something like that?
    what coach are you talking about?
    I am all in for your suggestions. What this site and most football sites need are in depth football discussions.
    Kinda like when people ram in statements like "We should run more", but never how we should be doing the running.

    I would love for this thread to be stickied so it doesnt end up being hijacked or lost(creating another similar thread time and again)

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  23. #15

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    Another thing that most people misunderstand is the west-coast offense.

    I am sure I could find some articles if anybody wants it, but basically the short passes are not the intent of WCO. It is the result.

    The WCO uses timing patterns which are governed by the synchronization(right word?) between the QB and the receivers feet. For instance when the QB sets down his feet in a five step drop back, the intent is that his first read should have his outside feet in sync with the qb.
    The next read is on the next feet who should also be in sync.
    That is why true west-coast offenses never used the shotgun. In fact Shanahan is famous for him bringing in the SG in the WCO variation he runs.

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