Thread: Dreadnoughts thread on military history

Dread, I know you're not answering questions in this thread, or haven't been anyway, but I've got one for you

in the song that says over the ramparts we watched (The SSB) does that refer to the ragtag American Army of Andrew Jackson's that held off a British assault on the Mississippi in 1815 or thereabouts? I was watching the History Channel Sunday night on such a battle.

I will take my answer off the air :click:

Originally Posted by bronconut

Dread, I know you're not answering questions in this thread, or haven't been anyway, but I've got one for you

in the song that says over the ramparts we watched (The SSB) does that refer to the ragtag American Army of Andrew Jackson's that held off a British assault on the Mississippi in 1815 or thereabouts? I was watching the History Channel Sunday night on such a battle.

I will take my answer off the air :click:

The SSB refers to the British Attack on Fort McHenry, Maryland, not the battle of New Orleans. The British invaded near D.C. in 1814, ran off a terrible U.S. Army, and burned Washington, D.C. in retaliation for our burning York Ontario earlier that year (now Toronto.) My understanding is that the White House was painted white to cover the scorch marks. Anyways, the British were stymied at Fort McHenry, where they had expected another easy win over what was the Bengals of 1814 Armies.

Andrew Jackson defeated a British Army at New Orleans in 1815. It was probably the most pointless battle in history, as it occurred a few weeks after the peace treaty was signed in Ghent, Belgium - it just took a while to get the word to the Gulf in those days. Kind of like a week 16 win for a Team that missed the Playoffs, but it did improve the morale of a U.S. Army that had performed pretty badly throughout the War. The U.S. Navy covered itself in glory; our Army flat out stunk. Eventually we got it through our heads that the legend of the farmer-soldier was pretty much mythology. They didn't beat professionals in the Revolution (that required George Washington and Baron von Steuben creating an actual professional Army,) and they didn't beat them in 1812.

The myth of the victorious American amateur soldier persists even to this day, for example in such movies as the Gawdawful "The Patriot." School kids are raised believing that Americans fought from behind trees and fences, while the bonehead British stood out in the open. Truth is, the British had units devoted to "skirmishing" from behind trees and such (called 'Light Infantry", and considered elite), whilst Americans finally started being competitive in open battles once Washington and Von Steuben had trained them to operate in the open, in formal line formations.

Thousands of men were killed in the Mexican and Civil Wars because many American politicians didn't think a professionally trained officer or nco corps were suitable for a Republic, and anyways, there was always the examples of Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill, right?

Yes, I know. Pet peeve of mine. In military History my strong suit is 17th-18th Century warfare and it is taught badly.

I hate you, Dreadnought.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

The SSB refers to the British Attack on Fort McHenry, Maryland, not the battle of New Orleans. The British invaded near D.C. in 1814, ran off a terrible U.S. Army, and burned Washington, D.C. in retaliation for our burning York Ontario earlier that year (now Toronto.) My understanding is that the White House was painted white to cover the scorch marks. Anyways, the British were stymied at Fort McHenry, where they had expected another easy win over what was the Bengals of 1814 Armies.

Andrew Jackson defeated a British Army at New Orleans in 1815. It was probably the most pointless battle in history, as it occurred a few weeks after the peace treaty was signed in Ghent, Belgium - it just took a while to get the word to the Gulf in those days. Kind of like a week 16 win for a Team that missed the Playoffs, but it did improve the morale of a U.S. Army that had performed pretty badly throughout the War. The U.S. Navy covered itself in glory; our Army flat out stunk. Eventually we got it through our heads that the legend of the farmer-soldier was pretty much mythology. They didn't beat professionals in the Revolution (that required George Washington and Baron von Steuben creating an actual professional Army,) and they didn't beat them in 1812.

The myth of the victorious American amateur soldier persists even to this day, for example in such movies as the Gawdawful "The Patriot." School kids are raised believing that Americans fought from behind trees and fences, while the bonehead British stood out in the open. Truth is, the British had units devoted to "skirmishing" from behind trees and such (called 'Light Infantry", and considered elite), whilst Americans finally started being competitive in open battles once Washington and Von Steuben had trained them to operate in the open, in formal line formations.

Thousands of men were killed in the Mexican and Civil Wars because many American politicians didn't think a professionally trained officer or nco corps were suitable for a Republic, and anyways, there was always the examples of Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill, right?

Yes, I know. Pet peeve of mine. In military History my strong suit is 17th-18th Century warfare and it is taught badly.

that's awesome Dread. Not a bad pet peeve to have. Not at all. that's interesting. I can see where someone could really get into this part of history.


Andrew Jackson sounded like a real ******* in the program, anyway. The historian that narrated pretty much said his adoption of the Indian kid was in no way that compassionate or whatever on his part. He said what many forget to consider in that event is that the child was adopted by Jackson after he slaughtered his parents. I guess he was one tough SOB, but eff him, he's still dead.

Dreadnought, tell me a story where the plucky underdog was just about to overcome great odds and then gets crushed in the last second.

Originally Posted by King87

Dreadnought, tell me a story where the plucky underdog was just about to overcome great odds and then gets crushed in the last second.

In 1883 The Sudan explodes in revolt against their Egyptian overlords, following A Muslim Holy Man believed to be the true Mahdi. The Mahdi's followers go on a rampage, destroy a 10,000 man Egyptian army sent to defeat them, and seize all of their rifles and artillery. The Egyptians, having run out of ideas, ask the British for help. the British government has zero interest in getting involved in this mess, but has treaty obligations to the Egyptians, so they send General George "Chinese" Gordon to see if he can accomplish anything.

Gordon organizes the remaining beaten Egyptians, and organizes an epic defense of the Sudanese Capitol of Khartoum, holding out against the Mahdi's hordes for 11 months. Eventually the British government bows to public embarrasment and pressure and agrees to send a relief army. This Army eventually arrives at Khartoum - 2 days after the defense finally cracked, and Gordon had his head put on a spear.

[IMG][/IMG]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

In 1883 The Sudan explodes in revolt against their Egyptian overlords, following A Muslim Holy Man believed to be the true Mahdi. The Mahdi's followers go on a rampage, destroy a 10,000 man Egyptian army sent to defeat them, and seize all of their rifles and artillery. The Egyptians, having run out of ideas, ask the British for help. the British government has zero interest in getting involved in this mess, but has treaty obligations to the Egyptians, so they send General George "Chinese" Gordon to see if he can accomplish anything.

Gordon organizes the remaining beaten Egyptians, and organizes an epic defense of the Sudanese Capitol of Khartoum, holding out against the Mahdi's hordes for 11 months. Eventually the British government bows to public embarrasment and pressure and agrees to send a relief army. This Army eventually arrives at Khartoum - 2 days after the defense finally cracked, and Gordon had his head put on a spear.

[IMG][/IMG]

that's awful

Originally Posted by bronconut

that's awful

My own all-time favorite movie, Khartoum, covers this. Charleton Heston as Gordon, Laurence Olivier as the Mahdi, less ahistorical crap than is usual in History epics - great stuff!

That sounds similar to the battle of Rorke's Drift. Of course they didn't all die. Man, the Brit's sure have had their share of getting obliterated.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyBronco

That sounds similar to the battle of Rorke's Drift. Of course they didn't hold out for 11 months. Man, the Brit's sure have had their share of getting obliterated.

And they did vengeance thoroughly, cold-bloodedly, and well. A few years later the British destroyed the Mahdist Army at the Battle of Obdurman. The Mahdi had died of a fever, but that didn't stop the British from packing his tomb full of gunpowder and blowing it to atoms, and "after Kitchener slaughtered the jihadists of the day at the Battle of Omdurman in 1897, he made a point of digging up their leader the Mahdi, chopping off his head and keeping it as a souvenir. The Sudanese got the message. The British had nary a peep out of the joint until they gave it independence six decades later..."

http://neveryetmelted.com/categories/the-mahdi/

Originally Posted by BigDaddyBronco

That sounds similar to the battle of Rorke's Drift. Of course they didn't all die. Man, the Brit's sure have had their share of getting obliterated.

yeah, I suppose,.

I will have to look into that movie that Drad is talking about. I take it this batle must have occurred before our lifetime? Being that Charleton Heston was in it. I believe he is dead now, but not sure.

Originally Posted by bronconut

yeah, I suppose,.

I will have to look into that movie that Drad is talking about. I take it this batle must have occurred before our lifetime? Being that Charleton Heston was in it. I believe he is dead now, but not sure.

Made in 1966. Big. Technicolor.

Dread, i am reading a book right now called Gideons Spies about the Israeli Mossad. Have you heard of it?

Originally Posted by bronconut

yeah, I suppose,.

I will have to look into that movie that Drad is talking about. I take it this batle must have occurred before our lifetime? Being that Charleton Heston was in it. I believe he is dead now, but not sure.

Here is a teaser. A riverboat running the Muslim blockade of the Nile full of European Refugees. At the :54 second mark you will see an actual Nordenfeldt Machinegun in use - the very best in 1883 firepower! Any movie with a Nordenfeldt gun in it is good by me!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDkcG5whNQo

Originally Posted by BeefStew25

Dread, i am reading a book right now called Gideons Spies about the Israeli Mossad. Have you heard of it?

I have not, though I am kind of a Mossad admirer. They played hardball with the ******** who killed the Olympic athletes in 1972