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Thread: Resign champ bailey now

  1. #16
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    Patrick peterson is going to be great + combined with champ would be scary. D line can be had in f/a and not so ridiculously high up in the draft. If we lose secondary we would just become the texans. a retooled front 7 with terrible pass D. do they win? no

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean View Post
    . . . and year after year the fans call for drafting D-line (especially D-tackle) help with our high picks. Year after year Denver's front office goes in another direction.
    That's because something I've long stated and people tend to object to and that is that Denver has long been ran and still is by offensive minded individuals. Since 1980 Denver has selected thirteen different defensive players in the first round, out of twenty-six times we've had first round picks, the other thirteen were offensive players and of those years we've traded away or out of the first round seven times! Of those defensive players drafted we've had only four above average defensive players: Steve Atwater, Al Wilson, John Mobley and Dennis Smith. Five have been middle-ground picks: D.J. Williams, Mike Croel, Trevor Pryce, Deltha O'Neil and Robert Ayers. The rest have been busts: Jarvis Moss, Willie Middlebrooks, Dan Williams and of course Ted Gregory!

    We've long been horrible at drafting in the first round, give the exception of when the Goodmans were here, Denver has been rather crappy via the draft for a long, long time. Steve Atwater, Ryan Clady, Jay Cutler, Dennis Smith and Al Wilson could quite arguably be the best players we have drafted in the first round since 1980.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MethoSauRuS View Post
    Patrick peterson is going to be great + combined with champ would be scary. D line can be had in f/a and not so ridiculously high up in the draft. If we lose secondary we would just become the texans. a retooled front 7 with terrible pass D. do they win? no
    Shut up and go smoke your meth!

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    Shouldn't the title read "Re-sign" and not "Resign" ?

    I almost thought the OP wanted Champ gone.

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  6. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    Five have been middle-ground picks: D.J. Williams, Mike Croel, Trevor Pryce, Deltha O'Neil and Robert Ayers. The rest have been busts: Jarvis Moss, Willie Middlebrooks, Dan Williams and of course Ted Gregory!

    We've long been horrible at drafting in the first round, give the exception of when the Goodmans were here, Denver has been rather crappy via the draft for a long, long time. Steve Atwater, Ryan Clady, Jay Cutler, Dennis Smith and Al Wilson could quite arguably be the best players we have drafted in the first round since 1980.
    I agree with your overall point, but Trevor Pryce is squarely a "hit" in the first round player category. Guy was one of the very best defensive linemen in the league for a good number of years in a Broncos uni, especially when he was playing DT. Didn't he make 4 straight Pro-Bowls and was a first-team all-pro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zbeg View Post
    I agree with your overall point, but Trevor Pryce is squarely a "hit" in the first round player category. Guy was one of the very best defensive linemen in the league for a good number of years in a Broncos uni, especially when he was playing DT. Didn't he make 4 straight Pro-Bowls and was a first-team all-pro?
    Trevor Pryce was graded out as a middle of the road prospect with tremendous upside, but he never fully put it together to be considered a 'blue-chip' player. In fact since the 80's Denver has only had a select few that even fit that category: John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Tom Nalen, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, Karl Mecklenberg, Al Wilson, Champ Bailey, Gary Zimmerman, Terrell Davis, Brandon Marshall and Clinton Portis. And that's within three decades? That's actually not that good when you consider that teams that even go to the Super Bowl have about three or four on a continual basis.

    Right now we have Champ Bailey who is maybe the only one we have on the roster, Dumervil and Clady are closer then the rest of the roster at this time. Middle of the road to solid NFL starters we can say we have possibly one in Lloyd, but the rest of the receivers can only be graded on potential. Kris Kuper is just below the mark, and the rest of the line besides Clady need more time to be graded, Moreno and the entire running back stable are below the standard. Defensively? besides Ayers and Bannan, Dumervil and Bailey most are below standard. We are literally a depleted, talentless team that needs to coach the possible talent we have to be better and to sign and draft some above average players to make us solid.

    And we need to start with the defensive line, we'll never be Baltimore or Pittsburgh and that's fine, I'd be happy with the old bend don't break defenses we were use to during the 80's and 90's.

  9. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    Trevor Pryce was graded out as a middle of the road prospect with tremendous upside, but he never fully put it together to be considered a 'blue-chip' player. In fact since the 80's Denver has only had a select few that even fit that category: John Elway, Shannon Sharpe, Tom Nalen, Steve Atwater, Dennis Smith, Karl Mecklenberg, Al Wilson, Champ Bailey, Gary Zimmerman, Terrell Davis, Brandon Marshall and Clinton Portis. And that's within three decades? That's actually not that good when you consider that teams that even go to the Super Bowl have about three or four on a continual basis.
    I would argue that Pryce was just as dominant/valuable for as long as Al Wilson was. He was one of the top 2 or 3 guys in the league at his position for half a decade. And Pryce not only had the sacks that are counted officially, but I've never seen a DT force more intentional grounding penalties than Pryce did over that time. He was a dominant force in the middle. But aside from the quibble on Pryce's value, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Rod Smith approached "blue chip" status for a few seasons, but I don't think quite got to the level of the guys you mentioned above.

    Right now we have Champ Bailey who is maybe the only one we have on the roster, Dumervil and Clady are closer then the rest of the roster at this time. Middle of the road to solid NFL starters we can say we have possibly one in Lloyd, but the rest of the receivers can only be graded on potential. Kris Kuper is just below the mark, and the rest of the line besides Clady need more time to be graded, Moreno and the entire running back stable are below the standard. Defensively? besides Ayers and Bannan, Dumervil and Bailey most are below standard. We are literally a depleted, talentless team that needs to coach the possible talent we have to be better and to sign and draft some above average players to make us solid.
    I want to see what an offensive line can do with actual run blocking before I close the book on Moreno at this point. Clady and Dumervil were there before injury, and I'm comfortable bumping them up to the top level with Champ.

    But I don't think it's the lack of blue chippers that's hurting the Broncos. Dumervil, Champ, Clady are a good trio, and honestly would be sufficient for a SB-winning team if the other parts weren't so bad. Not mediocre - BAD. If you had solid-but-not-ridiculous pieces around on the defensive side of the ball, the team could be just fine. But the fact that a 1998 Harald Hasselbach would be the best defensive lineman we have on the team right now illustrates how ludicrously awful the defensive line is right now.

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  11. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zbeg View Post
    I want to see what an offensive line can do with actual run blocking before I close the book on Moreno at this point. Clady and Dumervil were there before injury, and I'm comfortable bumping them up to the top level with Champ.

    But I don't think it's the lack of blue chippers that's hurting the Broncos. Dumervil, Champ, Clady are a good trio, and honestly would be sufficient for a SB-winning team if the other parts weren't so bad. Not mediocre - BAD. If you had solid-but-not-ridiculous pieces around on the defensive side of the ball, the team could be just fine. But the fact that a 1998 Harald Hasselbach would be the best defensive lineman we have on the team right now illustrates how ludicrously awful the defensive line is right now.
    I think the ship has sailed for Moreno in Denver, I think we could see him on the trading block just because he still has some value based on potential. He was a good fit for the Zone Blocking Scheme, but since converting to a more Man-to-Man Scheme he really just doesn't fit any longer. We need big powerful tailbacks that can bust through defenders for an extra inch or two...and I loved the idea of drafting Moreno, but I said that once we converted to the power scheme he'd suffer and I was right. Now if we by chance return to the ZBS, well then that's a whole other story.

    Bailey is likely gone after this season, Dumervil was last weighed in at 246lbs. and Clady while still solid has struggled to return completely from his injury and is hampered by the change in scheme. So right there we have possibly nullified our 'Blue Chip' capable players. Clady should rebound, but Dumervil is no longer the idea size of a rush linebacker, he's about fifteen pounds too light. I'm wondering if maybe we should move him inside with Mays and see how they are as an inside tandem.

    Like I said we need to induce some seriously talent, both middle of the road and starter capable, some proven younger veterans, coach the young talent we have and try and draft some 'Blue Chip' possible prospects. Until we do that, then we'll continue to have issues getting anywhere.

  12. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaileyTheBest View Post
    Agreed, yet some people want us to draft Patrick Peterson in the first round. Gag.
    That wouldn't NECESSARILY be a bad move -- depending on who's available when the team drafts.

    Champ Bailey for instance was the #7 pick of the draft for the Redskins and was an instant success. If Peterson is perhaps the most complete player in the entire draft as some experts think, and a "can't miss" prospect, he'd be a serious consideration. He seems certain to go in the top 10 and possibly in the top 5 or 6 anyway. The Broncos could certainly use him.

    For instance, suppose the Broncos are going to keep to a 3-4 defense and decide that Bowers isn't a good fit because he's more of a 4-3 DE (or he's off the board if the Broncos REALLY screw up and beat San Diego tomorrow)

    How highly do they rate the other prospects? They don't need a QB (unless it's Luck who will certainly be gone with the #1 pick) or an OT. Perhaps they don't like Fairley and there's really no NT worthy of the #2 pick (or a top 10 pick for that matters).

    Who do they take then? A WR?

    You might say in that position, "trade back and stockpile picks" and they will probably consider that. But, it's notoriously HARD to trade down out of the top 5 because teams just don't want to pay the price to move up that high unless they desperately need a franchise QB and see one sitting there and think that he WON'T be there a few picks later. (The Jets moving up to draft Mark Sanchez at #4 after trying desperately to trade for Jay Cutler and failing comes to mind as an example).

    Peterson might make a lot of sense. Normally that's WAY high to draft a CB, but with Peterson, they might think they could plug him right into the starters' position and have a guy who could be a suitable elite replacement for Bailey in a couple of seasons.

    In short, everything depends on who's available when the Broncos pick and what defensive scheme they are going to run.
    Last edited by Cugel; 01-01-2011 at 10:39 PM.

  13. #25

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    But I don't think it's the lack of blue chippers that's hurting the Broncos. Dumervil, Champ, Clady are a good trio, and honestly would be sufficient for a SB-winning team if the other parts weren't so bad.
    Sorry ZBEG but SB winning teams need at least a "Pro-bowl" caliber QB (one step down in the ranking system from "Blue" (or elite) rating.

    For instance, the Giants Eli Manning is a "pro-bowl" caliber QB, but not an "elite" caliber one (at least so far) and he had a superb game in the SB to win.

    Outside of that performance the other QBs who've won SBs have ALL been ELITE the past 18 years! (The only exceptions were Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson who had the top 2 scoring defenses since the '85-'86 Bears so that hardly counts -- their dominant defenses won those championships and they were just along for the ride).

    Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger and Brees are all elite QBs or even Hall of Famers (most of them) and they won 15 of the last 18 SBs between them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    Sorry ZBEG but SB winning teams need at least a "Pro-bowl" caliber QB (one step down in the ranking system from "Blue" (or elite) rating.

    For instance, the Giants Eli Manning is a "pro-bowl" caliber QB, but not an "elite" caliber one (at least so far) and he had a superb game in the SB to win.

    Outside of that performance the other QBs who've won SBs have ALL been ELITE the past 18 years! (The only exceptions were Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson who had the top 2 scoring defenses since the '85-'86 Bears so that hardly counts -- their dominant defenses won those championships and they were just along for the ride).

    Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger and Brees are all elite QBs or even Hall of Famers (most of them) and they won 15 of the last 18 SBs between them.
    I'd only be interested in Peterson seriously if we were looking to utilize him at the strong safety position, as a cornerback...no. If that was the case I would prefer to take Smith in the second. The problem is that Peterson is one of those whom is considered a 'Blue Chip' prospect for the NFL, just like Andrew Luck, A.J. Green, Robert Quinn, Marcell Dareus and Prince Amukamara with Nick Fairley and Da'Quan Bowers making a serious push to get into that group.

  16. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancane View Post
    I think the ship has sailed for Moreno in Denver, I think we could see him on the trading block just because he still has some value based on potential. He was a good fit for the Zone Blocking Scheme, but since converting to a more Man-to-Man Scheme he really just doesn't fit any longer. We need big powerful tailbacks that can bust through defenders for an extra inch or two...and I loved the idea of drafting Moreno, but I said that once we converted to the power scheme he'd suffer and I was right. Now if we by chance return to the ZBS, well then that's a whole other story.

    Bailey is likely gone after this season, Dumervil was last weighed in at 246lbs. and Clady while still solid has struggled to return completely from his injury and is hampered by the change in scheme. So right there we have possibly nullified our 'Blue Chip' capable players. Clady should rebound, but Dumervil is no longer the idea size of a rush linebacker, he's about fifteen pounds too light. I'm wondering if maybe we should move him inside with Mays and see how they are as an inside tandem.
    Then it's important to have a coach who can adjust his scheme to match the personnel he has, while also maximizing the talent he can acquire. IF that means staying in a 3-4 and going back to ZBS, then so be it. Having (hopefully) the #2 draft pick will create a lot of options, so hopefully the Broncos will be able to choose a solid direction and take it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    Sorry ZBEG but SB winning teams need at least a "Pro-bowl" caliber QB (one step down in the ranking system from "Blue" (or elite) rating.

    For instance, the Giants Eli Manning is a "pro-bowl" caliber QB, but not an "elite" caliber one (at least so far) and he had a superb game in the SB to win.

    Outside of that performance the other QBs who've won SBs have ALL been ELITE the past 18 years! (The only exceptions were Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson who had the top 2 scoring defenses since the '85-'86 Bears so that hardly counts -- their dominant defenses won those championships and they were just along for the ride).

    Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger and Brees are all elite QBs or even Hall of Famers (most of them) and they won 15 of the last 18 SBs between them.
    I think the idea is that Tebow is the guy the Broncos would be counting on to reach that elite or quasi-elite level. If he doesn't pan out, then Denver's probably in trouble regardless of what else happens.

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  20. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean View Post
    . . . and year after year the fans call for drafting D-line (especially D-tackle) help with our high picks. Year after year Denver's front office goes in another direction.
    Well we now have John Elway and we may get others to run in the front office. We finally have the second pick. We can't waste it. We are going to draft DaQuan Bowers if not Nick Fairley. We must pass by Patrick Petersen even if we don't sign Champ and hope to get a DB in Round 2.
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    3.Bills: Nick Fairley
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    I love Champ but i would be fine with a young and promising Cox and Thompson.
    yeah, I bet you would be

    :homo:

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