Thread: honest question

why are clancy barone the oline coach and eric studsville escapeing the wrath of josh?

i believed the rbs are a huge part of the problem before, and i wont excuse them from fault...but now im kinda leaning towards the coaching

surely we cant say the lines issues are because of a lack of talent can we?, after all josh rebuilt this line for the power game, we drafted big lineman, we shipped out all the small zb linemen and kept who he thought fit his scheme

but in none of my bronco fan days have i seen as pathetic of a run game as i have seen so far
not only in the run game but we have given up 12 sacks already in five games and i cant blame that on orton this season

im sure the loss of dennisen and turner compound the coaching issue as turner was imo the best rbs coach in the game

so with all the talk being ..the backs at fault...or the oline at fault
when do we look at the fact, it may be the coaching?

Originally Posted by arapaho2

why are clancy barone the oline coach and eric studsville escapeing the wrath of josh?

i believed the rbs are a huge part of the problem before, and i wont excuse them from fault...but now im kinda leaning towards the coaching

surely we cant say the lines issues are because of a lack of talent can we?, after all josh rebuilt this line for the power game, we drafted big lineman, we shipped out all the small zb linemen and kept who he thought fit his scheme

but in none of my bronco fan days have i seen as pathetic of a run game as i have seen so far
not only in the run game but we have given up 12 sacks already in five games and i cant blame that on orton this season

im sure the loss of dennisen and turner compound the coaching issue as turner was imo the best rbs coach in the game

so with all the talk being ..the backs at fault...or the oline at fault
when do we look at the fact, it may be the coaching?

If they don't feel their seats getting warm, they are clueless.

However, I think you have to see how the rest of the season progresses before drawing too many conclusions. I am beginning to suspect that position coaching is at least part of the problem, but we still don't have the guys at 100%. Clady and Harris look like shells of themselves. Kuper isn't 100% and two rookies makes for a difficult task on the OL. Throw in some RB injuries and it's really hard to tell where the blame needs to go.

I think the problem was that McDaniels stretched the O line way too thin. He brought in veterans for the D line and some other positions but for some explicable reason thought he could plug two unexceptional rookies into the O line and everything would be fine. It's not even like they are bigger than average. Walton at 300 pounds is probably average for a center, Beadles at 310 is below average for a guard. Neither of them blew anyone away in strength tests at the Combine, and both came in rated as fourth or fifth round prospects. Should we be surprised? I certainly wasn't. Add onto that the fact that Harris was coming back from a serious long term injury and Clady was injured in the off season.

The coaching blame falls entirely on the shoulders of McDaniels in this case. When Stanley Daniels is your starting left gaurd, you have a problem.

The fact that Daniels is beating out Beadles worries me. I sure hope he's better than Daniels. He's young and was solid in college, hopefully he grows into a solid NFL lineman as well. Regardless Denevr will need to bring in more guys to get better. Hoch and Daniels don't really provide any depth because they can't excecute effectively, both are huge liabilities in the running game.

I agree, it's time to question every coach that is invloved with the running game. NOTHING about Denver's running game is working. I hope it doesn't happen but it's only a matter of time before Orton gets hurt. They can key on him because they know Denver can't run on anybody.

Originally Posted by robert ethan

I think the problem was that McDaniels stretched the O line way too thin. He brought in veterans for the D line and some other positions but for some explicable reason thought he could plug two unexceptional rookies into the O line and everything would be fine. It's not even like they are bigger than average. Walton at 300 pounds is probably average for a center, Beadles at 310 is below average for a guard. Neither of them blew anyone away in strength tests at the Combine, and both came in rated as fourth or fifth round prospects. Should we be surprised? I certainly wasn't. Add onto that the fact that Harris was coming back from a serious long term injury and Clady was injured in the off season.

The coaching blame falls entirely on the shoulders of McDaniels in this case. When Stanley Daniels is your starting left guard, you have a problem.

Beadles had the same number of reps as Iupati who went in round one.

Walton was as fast or faster as Pouncey was and who did not bench at the combine.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/p...ngs/TSX/2010_C

Walton has graded out as one of our best OL in the weekly ratings IIRC.

One one thing you are correct Josh is responsible for everything but the actual on the field performances of the team, that is out of his control except for pulling them.

Originally Posted by robert ethan

I think the problem was that McDaniels stretched the O line way too thin. He brought in veterans for the D line and some other positions but for some explicable reason thought he could plug two unexceptional rookies into the O line and everything would be fine. It's not even like they are bigger than average. Walton at 300 pounds is probably average for a center, Beadles at 310 is below average for a guard. Neither of them blew anyone away in strength tests at the Combine, and both came in rated as fourth or fifth round prospects. Should we be surprised? I certainly wasn't. Add onto that the fact that Harris was coming back from a serious long term injury and Clady was injured in the off season.

The coaching blame falls entirely on the shoulders of McDaniels in this case. When Stanley Daniels is your starting left gaurd, you have a problem.

He brought in Russ Hochstein. Not that it helped but he is a vet.

Originally Posted by jhildebrand

He brought in Russ Hochstein. Not that it helped but he is a vet.

Hochstein was experienced and started a few games last year. He should not have had to wait for the rookies to fail before getting the start. It should have been the other way round.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Beadles had the same number of reps as Iupati who went in round one.

Walton was as fast or faster as Pouncey was and who did not bench at the combine.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/p...ngs/TSX/2010_C

Walton has graded out as one of our best OL in the weekly ratings IIRC.

One one thing you are correct Josh is responsible for everything but the actual on the field performances of the team, that is out of his control except for pulling them.

wrong...coaching extends to the field...if they dont understand thier blocking assignments...thats coaching...if the oline coach cannot see the mistakes the line is doing to get a run game going...that is coaching

if its a lack of talent...thats on the big coach

it these guys are not producing on the field and we rule out the talent..all you have left is coaching

im not gonna blame it on injuries...if they werent able to play effectively because of previous injuries...then again thats coaching ...put the best player on the field....and if a injured player is better than anyone else...whos fault is that?

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Beadles had the same number of reps as Iupati who went in round one.

Walton was as fast or faster as Pouncey was and who did not bench at the combine.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/p...ngs/TSX/2010_C

Walton has graded out as one of our best OL in the weekly ratings IIRC.

One one thing you are correct Josh is responsible for everything but the actual on the field performances of the team, that is out of his control except for pulling them.

If you go back to the draft, I believe that both first rounders, Thomas and Tebow were drafted with an eye to the future. Both were considered longer term projects, and neither was expected to start as a rookie. Yet in rounds two and three, the club reachs for a couple of linemen who WERE expected to step right in and start.

It shows a blindly arrogant faith in "the system" to overcome all obstacles. Just plug anyone in and the playbook will carry things from there.

Originally Posted by robert ethan

Hochstein was experienced and started a few games last year. He should not have had to wait for the rookies to fail before getting the start. It should have been the other way round.

Shanahan did the same thing with Clady! He gave Clady the job to lose. So why should we be critical of McD for the same? I know I wont be.

I want youth and I want them playing. It is the only way they will learn.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Beadles had the same number of reps as Iupati who went in round one.

Walton was as fast or faster as Pouncey was and who did not bench at the combine.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/p...ngs/TSX/2010_C

Walton has graded out as one of our best OL in the weekly ratings IIRC.

One one thing you are correct Josh is responsible for everything but the actual on the field performances of the team, that is out of his control except for pulling them.

Give me game tape over measuring tape everytime!

There was nothing about Beadles and Walton prior to the draft that screamed DAY ONE STARTER! Quite the contrary, Beadles in particular was lit up at the Senior Bowl by college players. Walton was adequate, never outstanding in any regard at the college level. How many of you heard or cared about either player prior to the draft? That is ususally a good indicator.

Originally Posted by robert ethan

If you go back to the draft, I believe that both first rounders, Thomas and Tebow were drafted with an eye to the future. Both were considered longer term projects, and neither was expected to start as a rookie. Yet in rounds two and three, the club reachs for a couple of linemen who WERE expected to step right in and start.

It shows a blindly arrogant faith in "the system" to overcome all obstacles. Just plug anyone in and the playbook will carry things from there.

to be honest hochstein sucked last year and i believe he was injured in camp? i have no issue putting beadles in

i wish we would put beadles in the position we drafted him for, which was the LG and not sit him because of his play at RT

Originally Posted by robert ethan

How many of you heard or cared about either player prior to the draft? That is ususally a good indicator.

Your general rule of thumb exudes fail in regards to logic and reality. How manuy times have y9ou heard of players before the draft only to see them like your argument putting on a clinic for failure in regards to them assuming a starting role as a result of the hype?

I am so sick of hearing about how bad the offensiveline is. Who in the hell can block more guys than you have men to block?

Ortons dink and dunk antics is killing the line by drawing up defenders to stack the box.

Originally Posted by robert ethan

If you go back to the draft, I believe that both first rounders, Thomas and Tebow were drafted with an eye to the future. Both were considered longer term projects, and neither was expected to start as a rookie. Yet in rounds two and three, the club reachs for a couple of linemen who WERE expected to step right in and start.

It shows a blindly arrogant faith in "the system" to overcome all obstacles. Just plug anyone in and the playbook will carry things from there.

once again I'm guessing you have never played OLINE.

The fact is most top choices on the OLINE can step in and play at a pretty high level from almost day one. Because for the most part they are the only new part in the group at the time. but in this case we have 2 Newbies and it takes time for them to get into sync.

OLINE is not always just plain talent but in most cases how they play together and the longer they do so the better they become as a group.

After a while the guy next to you anticipates your moves and moves accordingly almost seamlessly.

While you can get away with a split second delay in reaction time in college the NFL DLines will eat you alive.

I suspect IF there are no other injuries by the week after the bye, we will be much better than today.