Thread: SI Article: Broncos Have Their QB of the Future, and It's Not Tim Tebow

Originally Posted by broncofanatic1987

McDaniels didn't send Nolan anywhere. That's just an assumption people make because they, for one reason or another, don't want to accept that Nolan and McDaniels just might have parted ways of mutual accord.

Yes and no. In the end it was Nolan who wanted to bolt but only after McDaniels tried to overtake the playcalling of the defense which was Nolan's responsibility. It was a butting of heads something that McD seems to have a real propensity for and it clashes with players and coaches. Is he entitled to run it his way? Absolutely, but the onus will still be on him as its his way or the highway. Fact is, Nolan has been DC for years and knows what he is doing as long as he has the pieces in place to do it. When a young arrogant coach comes in and tries to step on that it can create problems which it did.

Let's not forget that the defense was horrid last year and Nolan has to take as much, if not more, blame as McDaniels.

No ones forgotten anything. But lets not forget that we didnt even have a decent DLine to work with either. You are quick to give McD 3 years to show what he can do but Nolan only gets one year? Especially to turn around the worst part of the team? Really? lol

McDaniels has certainly made questionable decisions but they can't be truly judged until he's had at least three seasons to develop his vision.

As far as his overall success or failure that may be true. But to say that some cant criticize or question his moves at this juncture is BS. But as Top pointed out he's got his work cut out for him this year as we should see a massive improvement which im sure if he fails we will still see the lame excuses and more scapegoats.

Nolan knew he was gone. Even the players themselves said that they saw tension between the two coaches. You aren't around the other guy nearly 24 hours a day, after being in the league as long as Nolan has and not have a VERY good understanding as to your relationship with the HC.

Nolan knew he was either out the door, or would be. Thats been made pretty clear from everything made available. PLus, if McD wanted him here, he would have made it clear and kept him. He didn't.

The reason the defense gets credit, is becasue the defense played WAY over its head and is very clear that it was the defense that kept our inept offense winners. When the defense started to falter and fall more back towards the '08, the offense couldn't pick up the slack.

As far as how one can say how we paid too much for Tebow, is that when you put dollar bills in your pocket, its still not spent. Just because you think you are saving up for a Mustang, doesn't mean you have spent the money on the high dollar car until the money is out of your pocket.

No matter HOW the draft picks were acquired, and no matter what the purpose for getting them was.... we STILL used 4 picks on one player. Thats the bottom line. If you trade a kid at a gumball machine ONE dollar bill for 3 shiny quarters, and then spend that 1 dollar on a sucker... you STILL chose to spend four quarters on the sucker.

Originally Posted by silkamilkamonico

I disagree. It's hard to differentiate between "pure talent" and "scheme". We thought Cutler was pure talent but from the way it looks for him in Chicago and the benefit of hindsight I would say he prospered in a system. The only other asset that McDaniels had when he took over was Marshall who isn't here now, but I could replace him with Dumervil, who wasn't aywhere near the level he is now in terms of talent last year at this time.

From a business perspective, Tebow makes this organization significantly more valuable at this point, being consdered an asset and the value he brings to the organization through marketability.

Since players will perform differently in different schemes, I think the only way to judge "talent" is on a purely physical level. Despite his penchant for throwing interceptions, Jay Cutler is obviously more physically gifted than Orton. McDaniels himself raved about Cutler's abilities when he first took over. Now, he may not have fit into the system that McDaniels wants to use, but that doesn't take away from his natural ability. Last year Cutler had to learn a new scheme (and he'll have to learn a new one this year). Hey, if the scheme excuse works for the Broncos it should work for Cutler too. Marshall was a headcase, but there is no WR currently on the Broncos who can match his ability. Maybe Thomas in the future, but it's way too early to tell. There is also no receiving threat at TE that comes close to Scheffler.

I equate "talent" with natural ability. Dumervil did not become more "talented" last year. I think he may have been put in a better position to succeed based on using him in a way that took better advantage of his ability.

As for team value, as a fan, I personally don't care much about that. I want the best team on the field. It remains to be seen if the best team comes from talent or character. I suspect it's a mixture of both. I'm just worried that McDaniels leans too much on the latter at the expense of the former.

Originally Posted by spikerman

Since players will perform differently in different schemes, I think the only way to judge "talent" is on a purely physical level. Despite his penchant for throwing interceptions, Jay Cutler is obviously more physically gifted than Orton. McDaniels himself raved about Cutler's abilities when he first took over. Now, he may not have fit into the system that McDaniels wants to use, but that doesn't take away from his natural ability. Last year Cutler had to learn a new scheme (and he'll have to learn a new one this year). Hey, if the scheme excuse works for the Broncos it should work for Cutler too. Marshall was a headcase, but there is no WR currently on the Broncos who can match his ability. Maybe Thomas in the future, but it's way too early to tell. There is also no receiving threat at TE that comes close to Scheffler.

I equate "talent" with natural ability. Dumervil did not become more "talented" last year. I think he may have been put in a better position to succeed based on using him in a way that took better advantage of his ability.

As for team value, as a fan, I personally don't care much about that. I want the best team on the field. It remains to be seen if the best team comes from talent or character. I suspect it's a mixture of both. I'm just worried that McDaniels leans too much on the latter at the expense of the former.

Some good thoughts there, Spike. I would add the caveat, however, that
you still need a balance. (I know, you indicated that: I'm just emphasizing it
for the sake of the issue.) For instance, Ryan Leaf was more physically gifted
than Peyton Manning. Where Peyton won it took place between the ears.

Same as when you are considering pure physical talent, exclusive of character.
E.g., there was no character issue with either Joe Montana or John Elway.
Elway was more physically gifted than Montana in nearly ever area. Why, then
was/is there such a raging controversy as to who was the better QB? Who
knows?--That just falls into the "intangible" category, doesn't it?

Both Cutler and Orton were in new systems last year. Orton ended up with
the better stats and record. Yet we know about the disparity between the
physical gifts. The answer, again, took place between the ears. It wasn't a
"character" issue: It was simply a decision issue, IMO. Orton made better
decisions on the field, where Cutler trusted his arm too much and took chances.

I'm not stating this as fact - only suggesting a possible scenario . . .

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Originally Posted by topscribe

Both Cutler and Orton were in new systems last year. Orton ended up with
the better stats and record. Yet we know about the disparity between the
physical gifts. The answer, again, took place between the ears. It wasn't a
"character" issue: It was simply a decision issue, IMO. Orton made better
decisions on the field, where Cutler trusted his arm too much and took chances.

I'm not stating this as fact - only suggesting a possible scenario . . .

-----

It has to do with it as with all gunslinger mentality your going to have those INT's. But the other part of that is the system in which the guys were in. Chicago wanted a more open/downfield attack while Orton was in a contained/controlled attack. His mistakes were cut down because the pass percentages favored him more than they did Cutler.

Originally Posted by spikerman

Since players will perform differently in different schemes, I think the only way to judge "talent" is on a purely physical level. Despite his penchant for throwing interceptions, Jay Cutler is obviously more physically gifted than Orton. McDaniels himself raved about Cutler's abilities when he first took over. Now, he may not have fit into the system that McDaniels wants to use, but that doesn't take away from his natural ability. Last year Cutler had to learn a new scheme (and he'll have to learn a new one this year). Hey, if the scheme excuse works for the Broncos it should work for Cutler too. Marshall was a headcase, but there is no WR currently on the Broncos who can match his ability. Maybe Thomas in the future, but it's way too early to tell. There is also no receiving threat at TE that comes close to Scheffler.

I equate "talent" with natural ability. Dumervil did not become more "talented" last year. I think he may have been put in a better position to succeed based on using him in a way that took better advantage of his ability.

As for team value, as a fan, I personally don't care much about that. I want the best team on the field. It remains to be seen if the best team comes from talent or character. I suspect it's a mixture of both. I'm just worried that McDaniels leans too much on the latter at the expense of the former.

I don't think you can equate talent with just natural ability, otherwise guys like Joe Montana and Drew Brees wouldn't be elite QB's because they don't have natural ability. IMHO, you HAVE to consider decision making a part of natural ability. If you don't, you also ave guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and countless other "prototypical" looking QB's coveted by everyone.

If someone wants to argue the new scheme, that they have to look at the fact that Orton was a better QB than Cutler in their first year in a new scheme.

Scheffler is a one trick pony. He's a terrible blocker, and should probably be used as a slot WR in some schemes.

It's all a matter of how someone percieves the situation. Nobody knows what would have happened with Cutler and company in McDaniels scheme. Almost every analyst new that the once dominating oline under Shanahan's scheme would not work in a power scheme, and had to have been changed. Cutler IMHO woul dhave put up good numbers in McDaniels system, would have made some great throws, but he also would have made some terrible decisions that resulted in turnovers because that's what he does. That's just not asked in McDaniels offense.

Originally Posted by silkamilkamonico

I don't think you can equate talent with just natural ability, otherwise guys like Joe Montana and Drew Brees wouldn't be elite QB's because they don't have natural ability. IMHO, you HAVE to consider decision making a part of natural ability. If you don't, you also ave guys like JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and countless other "prototypical" looking QB's coveted by everyone.

If someone wants to argue the new scheme, that they have to look at the fact that Orton was a better QB than Cutler in their first year in a new scheme.

Scheffler is a one trick pony. He's a terrible blocker, and should probably be used as a slot WR in some schemes.

It's all a matter of how someone percieves the situation. Nobody knows what would have happened with Cutler and company in McDaniels scheme. Almost every analyst new that the once dominating oline under Shanahan's scheme would not work in a power scheme, and had to have been changed. Cutler IMHO woul dhave put up good numbers in McDaniels system, would have made some great throws, but he also would have made some terrible decisions that resulted in turnovers because that's what he does. That's just not asked in McDaniels offense.

I believe that Joe Montana and Drew Brees both have a lot of natural ability, but it may be in different areas than players such as Cutler. A player can't make it to the NFL without some ability. The thing that Montana and Brees (among others) did that players like Cutler haven't figured out is that natural ability or "talent" is not enough. The players that work the hardest are the ones who are the most successful (ie. Jerry Rice).

I know I'll get flamed for it, but to me Joe Montana is a bit overrated. Yes, he won all of those championships, but he had GREAT supporting casts. Montana was a great leader and exceptionally accurate, which I believe were the areas where he was most talented. He didn't have the greatest arm and he wasn't the most mobile, but he worked hard enough to maximize the abilities God gave him. So what's the point I'm trying to make? Hell I don't know, I've gotten myself lost now. Seriously, I think that if you take a player like Cutler who, to me, is as physically gifted as anyone playing, and get him work hard to become a complete QB, he'll be much farther ahead than someone who is not as physically gifted who works hard.

Orton did have a better year than Cutler, but a lot of that is because of interceptions. Cutler is a gunslinger while Orton's play was conservative. I am no fan of Cutler, but I suspect he puts more fear in people (including his own fans) than Orton does. That's not a knock or Orton it's just a fact of Cutler's monster arm. I suspect that Cutler will almost always throw more picks than Orton. It just depends on what the coaching staffs are willing to live with.

Scheffler was not a great blocker, but I think one thing this team is missing now is a pass catching TE.

If Scheff is only a pass catcher, then he's not much of a TE... That's a position that is at least as much blocking as is receiving. Sharpe wasn't the best blocker either, but he could block somewhat. Scheff was a better fit as a toreador. Ole! The mention of Scheff as a slot type receiver is more of how he should be viewed. That he lines up as a TE is relevant only to how close to the tackle he plays, not as a technician of that position.

I've said it before... Graham can catch rather well... we just need to get him in the game sooner. Everybody remembers his drop against Jax a few years ago. Not as many remember that it was late in the 4th qtr, and the first time in the game they threw AT ALL to him. Let him get started earlier, and the man has the hands for catching. And he SURE has the skills for blocking.

But back to the QB thing, I think Cutler is no more accurate at the long ball than Orton. Until I SEE him do better, I'm keeping that opinion. Jay was no great shakes with us on plus 30 yard throws. Decision-wise, Orton is a definite upgrade, team-mate wise, leader-wise, also no contest. Jay definitely takes it in the pouting department, though.

Originally Posted by gobroncsnv

If Scheff is only a pass catcher, then he's not much of a TE... That's a position that is at least as much blocking as is receiving. Sharpe wasn't the best blocker either, but he could block somewhat. Scheff was a better fit as a toreador. Ole!

Tony Gonzlez wasn't much of a blocker either....especially in his early years. Scheff wasnt that bad of a blocker. His biggest problem... he didn't do enough butt kissing... imo.

Its just now that the Patriots are actually looking to use a pass catching TE in their offense. They drafted a good one. But McD's system doesn't use a TE for much outside of being an additional blocker for the spread offense.

Sceffler's problem was crying about his own selfish "un"oppurtunities regardless of how well the team was doing. He didn't care about winning. He cared about getting his. JMHO.

Originally Posted by Ravage!!!

Its just now that the Patriots are actually looking to use a pass catching TE in their offense. They drafted a good one. But McD's system doesn't use a TE for much outside of being an additional blocker for the spread offense.

The Patriots tried to implement a pass catching TE a few years ago when they drafted Ben Watson, but Watson's inability to work the middle of the field got him cut, and Rob Gronkoski drafted.

Originally Posted by silkamilkamonico

The Patriots tried to implement a pass catching TE a few years ago when they drafted Ben Watson, but Watson's inability to work the middle of the field got him cut, and Rob Gronkoski drafted.

They had both Daniel Graham and Ben Watson. Ben was more of th pass catching TE and Daniel the blocker... but could catch very well. Daniel wanted out of NE because they didn't throw to the TE enough, and Denver promised him a more piece of the offense. Ben, although the better pass catching TE of the two, wasn't used much in NE because their system didn't use it.

Its why McD has gotten rid of our pass catching TE and drafted a guy that can't catch along with Graham, who's considered to be one one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL. What part of our TEs, or drafting of TEs, seems to indicate ANY kind of using the TE in our spread offense? None. Zero. Nothing about our roster suggests that we even care about throwing to the TE.

Watson has one year over 40 catches. I personally don't think thats "trying" to use the TE.

Ben Watson was a workout warrior who had an amazing combine ala Vernon Davis style. He came in at 6'4" 258 and ran a 4.53 40, which was ridiculous for TE's in 2004. It was known he was underutilized in Georgia and the Patriots drafted him at the end of the first round after already having a blocking TE in Dan Graham who was entrenched in as a starter.

The Patriots did indeed draft Watson with the purpose of using him in the recieving game while Graham did the dirty work. He ended up struggling with the cerebral part of the game and had problems with drops. He only caught around 40 balls a year like you said or even less, which didn't pan out as a recieving TE, which is why he was cut.

NE drafted Gronkowski as a receiving TE, but IMHO he isn't going to catch 40+ balls every year, especially when they have that little white dude working the slot.

Originally Posted by silkamilkamonico

Sceffler's problem was crying about his own selfish "un"oppurtunities regardless of how well the team was doing. He didn't care about winning. He cared about getting his. JMHO.

Its interesting that someone would criticize Scheffler for this. The last game that Denver won before they went into a slump was a game where they heavily used Scheffler.