Thread: Orton lets his performance do his talking

I know I have a lot of questions about Ortons level of play. Certain areas of his play were very difficult to watch last year. I don't want to belabor my past listing of these issues but his progressions, check downs, field awareness, pocket presence, and lack of attacking the deep ball were all issues last year.

That said I don't think I'm prepared to cast complete judgment on his level of play without seeing it first hand this year. I honestly think we may have gotten as much out of Orton that can be squeezed out of him last year. However he may well surprise everyone and I want to see if the two years in the system really is that big of a difference as the night and day he and McD have made reference to about his comfort and efficiency in the offense so far in mini camps (which isn't a great test IMO either). Stranger things have happened and lesser QB's have matured into real forces in the league who were older then Orton. Honestly though, Quinn and a rookie Tebow don't inspire confidence in me as replacements behind center.

Originally Posted by BigBroncLove

I know I have a lot of questions about Ortons level of play. Certain areas of his play were very difficult to watch last year. I don't want to belabor my past listing of these issues but his progressions, check downs, field awareness, pocket presence, and lack of attacking the deep ball were all issues last year.

That said I don't think I'm prepared to cast complete judgment on his level of play without seeing it first hand this year. I honestly think we may have gotten as much out of Orton that can be squeezed out of him last year. However he may well surprise everyone and I want to see if the two years in the system really is that big of a difference as the night and day he and McD have made reference to about his comfort and efficiency in the offense so far in mini camps (which isn't a great test IMO either). Stranger things have happened and lesser QB's have matured into real forces in the league who were older then Orton. Honestly though, Quinn and a rookie Tebow don't inspire confidence in me as replacements behind center.

Well, yes, BBL . . . two years in the system. And . . .

Familiarity with receivers.
Receivers familiar with each other.
Familiarity with the O-line.
The O-line familiar with each other.

. . . And healthy.

Last year, Orton had four games with a 100+ QB rating and six at 90+ (and
another at 89). And that is with all these challenges. ^^^

Now, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how he would not be better this
year than he was last year. All these listed problems will have been solved,
and it looks as if the running game and defense may be improved.

I'm not making any predictions. I only would like to give him a fair chance
before I start relegating him to the bench, as several here have tried to do.
I'll make my judgment as to how good he is this next year. I haven't seen him
in "normal" circumstances yet. That's all I'm saying . . .

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Originally Posted by topscribe

So you consider that as an argument that Orton has had his chance and could
not get the Broncos into the playoffs? You even augmented my point: Not even
the great John Elway could get his team into the playoffs several different
times.

But there is something else you overlooked: Orton did get his team into the
playoffs as a rookie quarterback. He did not play in the postseason, as a
"coach's decision," but he did get them there. So you cannot say he is not
capable of getting a team into the playoffs.

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If that is what you got out of if and what you still hold onto as far as Orton's capabilities than i dont know what to tell you dude. My point was he needs to get DENVER into the playoffs. Not Chicago. And then, even when he did get Chicago into the playoffs he couldnt hold onto the job unlike Elway. Lets also look at WHEN he got chicago to the playoffs and that was on the back of a very good defense that year. Elway never really had that until later on. So who really is worth the price of admission? A QB who can carry a team to a SB or a QB who can guide a very good defensive team to one? I find it hysterical that you would even attempt to measure the two equally. Sorry, when it comes to this particular debate on whether Orton is the type of the QB who can do special things your just flat out of your mind.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did.

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they?

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Orton wasnt a rookie last year if that is what you were implying. And no one said he was the downfall to last year only that when the defense did fail he couldnt carry them or even make them competitive.

Originally Posted by dogfish

did that just happen?

Dont ask.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Well, yes, BBL . . . two years in the system. And . . .

Familiarity with receivers.
Receivers familiar with each other.
Familiarity with the O-line.
The O-line familiar with each other.

. . . And healthy.

Last year, Orton had four games with a 100+ QB rating and six at 90+ (and
another at 89). And that is with all these challenges. ^^^

Now, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how he would not be better this
year than he was last year. All these listed problems will have been solved,
and it looks as if the running game and defense may be improved.

I'm not making any predictions. I only would like to give him a fair chance
before I start relegating him to the bench, as several here have tried to do.
I'll make my judgment as to how good he is this next year. I haven't seen him
in "normal" circumstances yet. That's all I'm saying . . .

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We've talked about all these things but, I'll say the injury thing isn't, hasn't been, and likely won't be as big an issue for me regarding his play as you. He was injured in both ankle and hand but there were more then a few games in which both played a much reduced role. Games in which Orton did not play above and beyond the games he was injured.

As for the the other things your talking about, they won't play nearly as big a role now then they would have at the end of the 09 season. That's because...

The Center and left guard positions will be different players and the Oline will have its own issues in finding a comfort level with one another. Besides the blind side tackle which is another issue currently, the Center is arguably the most important piece of the puzzle, he calls out the adjustments in block assignments and we'll likely be porting in a rookie. Hopefully they'll let Kuper do that till Walton finds his stride. They can get comfortable with one another, a lot depends on it actually, but its not a sure bet and I'm not about to count that as a growing strength. Clady may well be out for few games if not more and that could be a massive blow to this offense.

Receivers.... not so much again. Stokley didn't play most of last year due to injury or being out played by other players. Marshall is gone. Scheffler is gone (and wasn't a huge piece of the puzzle last year). Royal and Orton never really got on teh same page last year outside of one or two games. Graham is more of blocker and will likely be used in that fashion. Besides Gaffney and perhaps to a degree Royal, that comfort level isn't there yet. We'll also be trying to port Decker and Thomas in there for good reason. So again familiarity with one another and Ortons familiarity with them is not a strength at this point.

Originally Posted by Northman

If that is what you got out of if and what you still hold onto as far as Orton's capabilities than i dont know what to tell you dude. My point was he needs to get DENVER into the playoffs. Not Chicago. And then, even when he did get Chicago into the playoffs he couldnt hold onto the job unlike Elway. Lets also look at WHEN he got chicago to the playoffs and that was on the back of a very good defense that year. Elway never really had that until later on. So who really is worth the price of admission? A QB who can carry a team to a SB or a QB who can guide a very good defensive team to one? I find it hysterical that you would even attempt to measure the two equally. Sorry, when it comes to this particular debate on whether Orton is the type of the QB who can do special things your just flat out of your mind.

Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

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Originally Posted by topscribe

Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

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No need to be insulting Top, you know better. Fact is, you brought up Elway as your example which is nothing NEAR what was being discussed. This is like JR always bringing up Shanahan in every discussion because he wants to spend a lot of time deflecting from the discussion at hand. Maybe, just maybe if you had read my post correctly you wouldnt of gone off tangent.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

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Play nice....

A lot of us debate with civility. I think, even in the face of the alternative, you never make your point by insult.

Originally Posted by BigBroncLove

We've talked about all these things but, I'll say the injury thing isn't, hasn't been, and likely won't be as big an issue for me regarding his play as you. He was injured in both ankle and hand but there were more then a few games in which both played a much reduced role. Games in which Orton did not play above and beyond the games he was injured.
.

That's right, and that is what makes me optimistic. Because during those games
Orton did not have the high ankle sprain, he threw for 11 TDs and 4 INTs and
2,031 yards in 8½ games, and his W-L was 6-2 through 8 games. In four of
those games, his QBR was 100+, and two others were 90+. And that was with
that split open finger the first two or three games or so.

I saw the same thing in 2008. He was receiving compliments from all over for
his play until he incurred that high ankle sprain.

So when Orton's injuries played a reduced role, he excelled, didn't he? That's
why I said, or at least implied, I want to see him play a season healthy and in
more "normal" circumstances.

Originally Posted by Northman

No need to be insulting Top, you know better. Fact is, you brought up Elway as your example which is nothing NEAR what was being discussed. This is like JR always bringing up Shanahan in every discussion because he wants to spend a lot of time deflecting from the discussion at hand. Maybe, just maybe if you had read my post correctly you wouldnt of gone off tangent.

No, if you had read my post correctly and gotten the point, then it would never
have happened. I made a point, but I apparently insulted your god. Had you
applied a trace of cognitive power, you would have seen what I was getting
at.

Shanahan has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither does JR. See how
silly that is?

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Originally Posted by BigBroncLove

Play nice....

A lot of us debate with civility. I think, even in the face of the alternative, you never make your point by insult.

Oh, I never intended to insult.

I meant it . . .

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Originally Posted by topscribe

No, if you had read my post correctly and gotten the point, then it would never
have happened. I made a point, but I apparently insulted your god. Had you
applied a trace of cognitive power, you would have seen what I was getting
at.

Shanahan has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither does JR. See how
silly that is?

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Good grief. I cant even debate with you anymore without the silly childish antics. Welcome to ignore.

Originally Posted by topscribe

That's right, and that is what makes me optimistic. Because during those games
Orton did not have the high ankle sprain, he threw for 11 TDs and 4 INTs and
2,031 yards in 8½ games, and his W-L was 6-2 through 8 games. In four of
those games, his QBR was 100+, and two others were 90+. And that was with
that split open finger the first two or three games or so.

I saw the same thing in 2008. He was receiving compliments from all over for
his play until he incurred that high ankle sprain.

So when Orton's injuries played a reduced role, he excelled, didn't he? That's
why I said, or at least implied, I want to see him play a season healthy and in
more "normal" circumstances.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Passer ratings are one of the worst ways to gauge a QB IMO. Based upon completion percentage largely in which a massive portion of the Broncos offense was pieced together by bubble screens, three step slants, and other short passing throws that are easy to create a completion and hard to make something out of. I know your opinion on QB rating and you defend it rather vehemently, so again, agree to disagree.

The only three games in which Orton I felt operated at a high level were Dallas, NE, and the Giants last year. The rest, if watched in full, had a great many three and outs, a stat very hard to track. Was that all on Orton? No, but he shares more then his fair share of the load and i think most who watched the same games as me agree that he has a lot of room for improvement. As for the other post about insults.... wow man.

Originally Posted by Northman

Good grief. I cant even debate with you anymore without the silly childish antics. Welcome to ignore.

If you cannot get a simple point I made without this childish "don't mention x
in the say breath as y," then I don't know what to say.

And what kind of comment is that? Since when have you and I been in a debate?

Wow, skin is thin around here. I'm putting in a call for sanity . . .

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