Thread: McClain, Pouncey or bust

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

We do not have to have a GREAT WR to win most of the marbles and frankly most WR are worthless as a tit on a boar the first couple of years.

Whereas top flight OG and centers can step in and make a difference in a heartbeat.

I consider the front 7 on D the LOS players especially in a 3-4 as in most purposes they all play it except for perhaps one of the ILB's.


I saw your point on the LB's we do not have to have one day one but maybe one of the 2nd's if someone is special there. definitely early on day three.

I'm just guessing that if Weatherspoon is there in the second he is ours, I think We are going after Tebow day two and Dan Williams at 11 or shortly thereafter if we can move back a bit.

I just watched the second part of his tape on the predraft presser. He was impressed with all three of these kids.

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

Originally Posted by Lancane

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

-----

Originally Posted by Lancane

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

Yo have valid points but seldom does a WR burst onto the scene and make a huge difference. you can count them on two hands over the past decade. and then most of those were not number 1 picks they were seconds or less.

If our QB whoever that may be has more time to make a decision or the WR have that extra time to get a stepfather making a move or TWo then our passing game will not be any worse than what we had last year.

IF our Oline can PBS instead of pbs then our RBs, who are not chopped liver should be albe to keep the changes moving and BTW when the run games become viable then the passing games gets better also. Because they have to respect the Running game.

Please tell me how that does not help the team longer term. There are many WR that can come later in the draft and probably be as much an impact as dez could have this next year. IIRC Bm was a forth rounder and did not turn out so bad.

If it were up to me I'd never draft another WR againand go with only picking up FA and UDFA as they have been the stable oft WR core for almost a decade now. WR are IMO the biggest hit and miss there is in the NFL.

That is how I see it and while having stud WR is nice it is not the end all to this teams issues.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

-----

You seemed to have summed it up quite well.

Originally Posted by topscribe

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

-----

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...

Originally Posted by Lancane

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...

YES I remember ashley well a total bust at WR if he had to catch a ball between the hash marks or could not make a circus catch so he could flop to the earth and not be tackled.

HE is my poster child for not taking WR in the first.

I do not have blind faith about Josh nor did I with mike.

Ido have blind trust that improving the LOS play on each side of the ball will make HUGE improvements to everyone else on the team.

I'm not convinced that ANY WR is worth taking in the draft. If they are that good that they can't fail then they are usually a head case and do not work out more than a few years anyway. Yes Larry Fitz is a GREAT WR but he is an anomaly for that position. IMO we need to FA those spots if you think those other WR are going to be good by all means draft them some where other than day one or two.

Originally Posted by Lancane

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...

I really don't understand your Ashlie Lelie analogy. One of Gaffney's strengths
is his toughness over the middle. Lelie avoided the middle like a den of snakes.
Gaffney blocks. Lelie thought a block was something high school kids drive
around on Saturday night. Gaffney is a team person who plays when and
where he was told. Lelie thought he should be gifted #1 . . . forget earning it.

Frankly, I'm disappointed Gaffney was not played more this last year. When he
was given the chance, he dominated defenders . . .witness Philly, NE, KC.

Do the Broncos need a receiver? Without a doubt. Do they need one worse
than a center or guard? That's where doubt enters in.

Again, I watched Lionel Taylor, Floyd Little, Otis Armstrong, Al Denson. I saw
their heroics and sometimes jaw-dropping plays. I also suffered with them,
year after year, with their losses because the lines just blew.

And, as I mentioned, the Broncos last year were 8-8, Marshall and all. The
previous year, they were 8-8, Marshall and all. And again, it was because of the
lines.

Give Orton time and the RB blocking, and be decent in run defense, and the
Broncos will win. Don't do that, and they won't. That's what I am looking at . . .

-----

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

YES I remember ashley well a total bust at WR if he had to catch a ball between the hash marks or could not make a circus catch so he could flop to the earth and not be tackled.

HE is my poster child for not taking WR in the first.

I do not have blind faith about Josh nor did I with mike.

Ido have blind trust that improving the LOS play on each side of the ball will make HUGE improvements to everyone else on the team.

I'm not convinced that ANY WR is worth taking in the draft. If they are that good that they can't fail then they are usually a head case and do not work out more than a few years anyway. Yes Larry Fitz is a GREAT WR but he is an anomaly for that position. IMO we need to FA those spots if you think those other WR are going to be good by all means draft them some where other than day one or two.

I get what you're saying and you make some valid points...I just don't think we can succeed with McDaniels as the head coach if we don't have some great or elite talent, especially at receiver and his track record speaks as much.

Originally Posted by Lancane

I get what you're saying and you make some valid points...I just don't think we can succeed with McDaniels as the head coach if we don't have some great or elite talent, especially at receiver and his track record speaks as much.

I disagree and on that will have to agree to do so.

For that matter mike could not win consistently without elite players. Having a WR that is great makes no sense if the QB does not have the time to throw to him.

the WR is not going to be a game breaker but a Running game combined with time to pass will win a hell of a lot more games. IMHO

Yes we many win a few games with an elite WR but we will be more consistent with a PBS and a running game as they can always doulbe or triple a WR but it is hard to do that with a great OLINE kicking ass for the running game.

I want McClain.

McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain,

Originally Posted by KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128

I want McClain.

McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain,

But we have needs. WR, G, C, DE, NT, ILB, S in that order. There is enough ILB depth in this draft to pick up a decent one later. We need to trade down. We simply have too many needs.

Originally Posted by atwater27

But we have needs. WR, G, C, DE, NT, ILB, S in that order. There is enough ILB depth in this draft to pick up a decent one later. We need to trade down. We simply have too many needs.

If I correctly read McDaniels' comments between the lines in his presser, I picked
up that this is what he would really like to do . . .

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Trading down and adressing those needs would go a long way in building my confidence in Josh.