Thread: NFL's problem: Yards up, but scoring down

Originally Posted by CrazyHorse

One of the problems with Zone Blocking is that relies on having more people at the point of attack. This doesn't work well in the red zone because the defense bunches together. The solution is beef up the line, build a power running game, and pound the rock.

Actually it requires the D to move one way or the other. if they are disciplined and stay at home then the ZBS is for crap.

and you are correct deep in the red zone there are many more players near the LOS the have so much less field to defend.

Why mike never got this concept is way beyond my pay grade. Guess he was content to kick FG and make Jason into a HOF player.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Guess that is why our red zone O has sucked for more than a decade.

Mike was ahead of the rest of the league.

A real innovating leader.

That explains it all.

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0-4 in the Super Bowl pre-Shanahan

2-0 in the Super Bowl with Shanahan.

Remember that. Never forget it.

Originally Posted by atwater27

0-4 in the Super Bowl pre-Shanahan

2-0 in the Super Bowl with Shanahan.

Remember that. Never forget it.

yep he won two super bowls got the CAPS on my shelf.

But did virtually nothing after all his HOF players retired.

IIRC one playoff win in those ensuing 11 years.

Some thing to really hang your hat on.

Cutler leads the league the last couple years in red zone int's. I don't blame Shanahan for that. But obviously Denver is not the only team that has trouble in the red zone lately. I do think Denver will improve in that area with the power blocking scheme. I expect knowshon's TD total to go up.

Originally Posted by broncobryce

Cutler leads the league the last couple years in red zone int's. I don't blame Shanahan for that. But obviously Denver is not the only team that has trouble in the red zone lately. I do think Denver will improve in that area with the power blocking scheme. I expect knowshon's TD total to go up.

Curious why you do not hold mike responsible for jays interceptions.

Had he been coached and held accountable by mike they flat would not have happened or at least not as much.

I alos believe that power blocking will enable us to score more in the red zone and for that matter get those 3rd and short first downs we have sucked at for years.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Curious why you do not hold mike responsible for jays interceptions.

Had he been coached and held accountable by mike they flat would not have happened or at least not as much.

I alos believe that power blocking will enable us to score more in the red zone and for that matter get those 3rd and short first downs we have sucked at for years.

Because I don't think anyone can stop Jay from throwing into triple coverage besides Jay. He just thinks he can sling the ball into anything. I'm sure he got on Jay for throwing those redzone picks. I think he was trying to coach him up, but you can only do so much.

Originally Posted by broncobryce

Because I don't think anyone can stop Jay from throwing into triple coverage besides Jay. He just thinks he can sling the ball into anything. I'm sure he got on Jay for throwing those redzone picks. I think he was trying to coach him up, but you can only do so much.

Perhaps your correct but settingg his ass on the bench would have gotten his attention.

But then I have always believed that jay is another coach killer like jeff george was. will do what he wants or thinks he can do because of his rocket arm.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Perhaps your correct but settingg his ass on the bench would have gotten his attention.

But then I have always believed that jay is another coach killer like jeff george was. will do what he wants or thinks he can do because of his rocket arm.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Martz in chicago. If they don't win this coming season, the coaching staff and GM will probably be canned, and I will agree with you on the coach killer thing.

Just a couple of things...

1. Shanahan - HOF Coach
2. McDaniels - Still basically finding his own (could be a HOF coach we just don't know yet)

Also, the CBs and Safetys are getting much faster and better it seems and would contribute to the low scoring.

As far as Denver's low scoring, it seems to me that BMarsh and Royal cannot get separation once they get down in the redzone. Now, is that because of coverage or just them? I don't know. But every game I watched, it looked like they just couldn't separate themselves. And would definately contribute to low scoring.

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Actually it requires the D to move one way or the other. if they are disciplined and stay at home then the ZBS is for crap.

and you are correct deep in the red zone there are many more players near the LOS the have so much less field to defend.

Why mike never got this concept is way beyond my pay grade. Guess he was content to kick FG and make Jason into a HOF player.

yeah mike averaged 11th in offensive scoreing the nine years after elway...because he kicked FGs

On to the main point, because this thread had nothing to do with McDaniels or Shanahan no matter how hard anyone tries to pound that square peg into a round hole, I am convinced that the problem is twofold;

A) Pass patterns are too short. They are too focused on moving the chains rather than scoring. Moving the chains is a means to an end, not an end itself. The Saints kill you with 20+ yard scoring passes, and I don't think their players are that much better than anyone else's.

B) Dink n' Dunk passing has replaced too much of the running game (see above). Or rather, it has tried to. It won't work once you get down close. Theoretically, a screen or hitch is just a long handoff - we keep hearing that - except that it really isn't the same thing at all. Once you get into the Red Zone you have to have a believable running game, even if you choose to score via the pass, because that makes play action work and/or creates doubt in a defense's mind.

Your correct in sayong you have to have a credible running game which we have not had since portis left. Yes we had some 1K runners but once inside the 20's they were not getting the job done.

Does anyone debate that?

Outside of MIKE Bell a few years ago getting almost as many TD's as yards for the year we have not hada goal line. Back since MA and TD TD had a GREAT OLINE and since most of them retired andf Gibbs left it has been Blah at best inside the 10.

IMO Josh saw the problem and tried to fix it grabbing a "name" RB and beleiving that the best OLINE in football could actually learn how to do something LIKE powwer block.
I think he kept Dennison and the OLINE intact until he saw for sure it was not working.

Featherweight OLINE guys are just not big andf strong enuff to power block.
Hence one of the reasons all but 3 of that group are gone coach included.
I know that rick got a promotion but I'll also bet he was not getting great v ibes arfound dove v alley either.

Get the LOS fixed on both sides and lots of good things are going to happen.


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Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Your correct in sayong you have to have a credible running game which we have not had since portis left. Yes we had some 1K runners but once inside the 20's they were not getting the job done.

Does anyone debate that?

Outside of MIKE Bell a few years ago getting almost as many TD's as yards for the year we have not hada goal line. Back since MA and TD TD had a GREAT OLINE and since most of them retired andf Gibbs left it has been Blah at best inside the 10.

IMO Josh saw the problem and tried to fix it grabbing a "name" RB and beleiving that the best OLINE in football could actually learn how to do something LIKE powwer block.
I think he kept Dennison and the OLINE intact until he saw for sure it was not working.

Featherweight OLINE guys are just not big andf strong enuff to power block.
Hence one of the reasons all but 3 of that group are gone coach included.
I know that rick got a promotion but I'll also bet he was not getting great v ibes arfound dove v alley either.

Get the LOS fixed on both sides and lots of good things are going to happen.


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There is a difference of 13 lbs between our starting Oline and the Patriots Oline. We arent as light as we like to think.

I myslef think its coaching. Dennison is gone, hopefully the new dude from the CFL knows what he's doing.

Originally Posted by claymore

There is a difference of 13 lbs between our starting Oline and the Patriots Oline. We arent as light as we like to think.

I myslef think its coaching. Dennison is gone, hopefully the new dude from the CFL knows what he's doing.

i used to fight that same thing on the other board....when you looked at it we had guys at 290--295...but solid...not fatties...opposed to what was basicaly average for a oline 305-310..on fat boys... i never seen where that extra 10 pounds of flab or lack of it was why we had horrible red zone production...i would look more to the zen master of zone blocking alex gibbs left for atlanta...and each yr further from his teaching we got worse

case in point...the first superbowl...Gb had the biggest baddest dline around..our smaller oline..strong, as opposed to flabby manhandled them in the second half

Originally Posted by claymore

There is a difference of 13 lbs between our starting Oline and the Patriots Oline. We arent as light as we like to think.

I myslef think its coaching. Dennison is gone, hopefully the new dude from the CFL knows what he's doing.

I think your close to the point. But even if we are close to NE size OLINE that still does not mean our guys could indeed power block. OR be taught how to by an ex LB that learned ZBS from the master.

I like to think that replacing casey and hamilton with at least 310+ guys will make a huge difference. That plus ha ving a REAL OLINE coach to teach them PBS.

Like I said before I really believe that Josh coming into town he was told that the OLINE and Coach was the BEST therefore he did not worry about it as he had other more pressing issuses.


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