Thread: Broncos need to move Marshall, antics out of town

Originally Posted by Jrwiz

UNlike some I still think there is talent there.. I have seen no indication that he can't throw it long, Nor have I seen that he can't make "all of the throws".

You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.

I'll give him another year hopefully behind a decent Pass blocking oLINE and having another year in the scheme as well as most of his targets having the same.

I know that many here think that the team should have had the O down dick straight after a couple of games, but football at this level playing against the best of the best players in the world just does not allow for any hesitation..

Kind a like when Ashley came to town, he terrorized the WAC had an almost 400 yard day against UTEP. was highly touted a burner with grate pass catching ability. But he found out fast that talent can only get you so far. Playing against world class DB in the NFL was a far cry from those in the WAC.

He had to evolve but he was a one trick pony that IMHO did not like to get hit, something he rarely did in the WAC.

I'm not saying that Kyle is an elite QB but we really do not need and Elite QB to win consistently and frankly no one thought brady was going to be the QB he turned out to be. He developed into one with coaching and practice.

I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.

I for one am willing to give him at least this coming year to see what he is. If Josh wants to draft another QB I have no issues with that but I suspect he will be a later round choice and not a day one guy. T hat is or has not been in the NE mentality for decades or at least since Bill took over. In fact just the opposite. Like mike liked no body RB's I suspect Josh will like no name QB's.

I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

Originally Posted by spikerman

You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.

I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.

I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

I think the OLINE and lack of a consistent running game cause the game plan to be what we saw.

Also when something is new to everyone it can be a total chinese fire drill. with everyone thinking about their routes/roles it just flat takes time for everyone to be on the same page.

Orton not only had to know his reads and the routes he was looking for but if one of the WR does not clear the area for the other WR then all is screwed. or at least most is screwed.

for those that are going argue that farve, and the rookie in NYJ played well in new systems these also had great OLINE and a great running games they stepped into. Also they were the only newbie in the scheme so they only had to worry about getting their part and not wondering is Royal going to run the correct route.

Cassell had the working knowledge of 2-3 ears watching a HOF QB and setting in film and QB meetings with him. It was not brand new to him stepping on the field with NO ONE else knowing what was going on. Did Josh work wonders with him, who knows , but he did adapt the playbook/game plan each week to make him look great.


Again last year in KC everything was new for everyone just like it was here in DEN.

I'm pretty sure that next year will be a vast improvement IF we get some OLINE help, for not only QB play but also everyone else.

Rome was not built in a day.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

Okay, this is the last poke I'm going to make at Orton this thread but I learned some new trivia today. Remember how bad we were about 3 & out this year? Did you know we led the league in 3 & outs? I didn't until today.

Sure, you can say it was the O-line's fault or the fact that our RBs couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, but I learned another fun fact today. Do you know what team led the league in 3 & outs last year? The Chicago Bears. There's only one constant there - a QB that either will not or can not throw consistently past the sticks and make plays with his arm when it matters most... on 3rd down.

does it really mean arm strength? We really do not know that for sure do we?
All it means is we sucked at it for what whatever reason and they did not.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.

Who says he has to "hit the gym"?

I think it's easy to agree that he's never had much coaching, after he hit the NFL. Not when you look at where he was.

Now, he has McD. The same person that turned Cassell into a pretty damn good QB in his only year starting.

Give him the offseason with McD, and lets' see what he has to show for it.

I'm betting we're going to see a more accurate/decisive QB than what was on the field last year.

Originally Posted by Northman

Unfortuantely, who's fault is that? If you know you dont have the guys in place to run YOUR scheme why try and force it? Wouldnt the "smart" thing to do would be to utilize the scheme that best fits your personnel?

Why? So the team the following year is still learning the system he WANTS to install?

You have to start SOMEWHERE, right? What better time than the present!

Originally Posted by rcsodak

Who says he has to "hit the gym"?

McD..... in his interview

Originally Posted by spikerman

You're right, we haven't seen that evidence. What we've seen is, whether it's his choice or the coaches, a complete lack of will to attempt those throws.

I'm not necessarily anti-Orton, but let's not pretend this guy is a "young" player who just needs to figure out the NFL game. He's been around for awhile. I think by now what you see is what you get. The last few season also prove that unless you have an exceptional defense (Denver doesn't), then yes, you probably need an elite, or at least a VERY good, QB to win.

I hope McDaniels doesn't picture himself a QB miracle worker because of one year with Cassel. If he really turned him into a great QB I don't think he would have struggled like he did last year. I'm not saying that McDaniels didn't play a large role with Cassel, but I suspect he caught lightning in a bottle for one year. I don't think he (or we) can count on him turning much lesser QBs into Super Bowl champions.

Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.

Originally Posted by rcsodak

Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.

I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.

Originally Posted by rcsodak

Why? So the team the following year is still learning the system he WANTS to install?

You have to start SOMEWHERE, right? What better time than the present!

Originally Posted by rcsodak

Orton's not 'old', either.

In fact, Cutler has played in more games.

Let's not think he's some journeyman QB that's been bouncing around the league for 10yrs.

College:
--tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy's .
--can throw a football 73 or 74 yards "if I get into one" ... out-threw NFL quarterback Jon Kitna at Purdue's Elite Quarterback Camp
--Purdue career leader with 2.43 interception percentage (23 interceptions in 947 attempts)
--119.8 career passing efficiency
--named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News ... selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith's.

He has the ability. He just needs to be allowed to use it.

Wait RC you are being way to logical in your posts.

SOme of this folks expected him to come in to a brand new team, brand new scheme, one that even the OC or QB coach has to learn. the only folks on O that have clue about it are Josh, the FB, and one Oline guy that is not even on the starting lineup.

That leaves everyone learning a new scheme including play calling, routes, how to read defenses, blocking assignments, timing of receivers, so it is not just Orton that is learning EVERYONE is some of them rookies. What makes it hard on Orton as He has to know what everyone is doing on the field where they are supposed to be, when, what route they are running. ALos need sot be able to read the defense in front of him and to be able to check off the play if it is not going to work.

Some of the doubters were willing to give cutler up to three years to learn mikes scheme even though most of the players were already doing it before he got here. So he did not have to worry about if the WR was running the correct route.

Yet they expected Orton and the team to have this down pat after a few games.

It is just not like that at this level playing against world class athletes that do not allow any time for indecision, doubt or for that matter thinking after the ball is snapped. It all has to be automatic, like they have done it a thousand times before.

Originally Posted by HORSEPOWER 56

I'm not trying to turn this into another anti-Orton debate, but I think we've seen his best football. I don't see his physical skills improving. He's in his prime physically right now. Every year older will add wisdom, but detract from his athleticism, it's just a fact of life.

Orton never really was an ideal physical specimen, so even if he "hits the gym" this offseason I don't think it's going to change much (maybe it'll help him fight off those pesky ankle injuries, who knows?).

Manning and Favre have always been physical specimens with a big arm and the ability to throw the ball to anywhere on the field. Brees, although not prototypical size, is deadly accurate on short and mid range passes and is the master of putting the ball "only where his WR can get it".

Okay, I'm done now.

Sorry, but Kyle has a stronger arm than Manning, and that is not debatable.
That has been publicly proven.

And I don't know how you think we've seen Orton's best football. I don't know
how a QB can display his best football with the obstacles and injuries Orton
has endured. To me, that is a ridiculous assumption.

-----

Originally Posted by spikerman

I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.

You know, I hear that time and time and time again, that Orton could not
beat out Grossman. I guess a whole lot of people around here barely know
where Chicago is, let alone anything about the Bears.

Orton decisively beat out Grossman in 2008. When Orton went down for one
game with a high ankle sprain, Grossman stepped in. The very next week,
Orton took back the starting job, ankle sprain and all.

Let us stop this idiotic assumption that Orton could not beat out Grossman.
Let us not assume we are all morons and cannot check the records to see for
ourselves.

-----

Originally Posted by spikerman

I never meant to imply he was old, but he's not a young, inexperienced player either.

Like I said, I'm not an Orton hater, but there are some things to keep in mind. First, throw out the college stats - they don't mean anything in the NFL.

Next, the distance he can throw the ball is not a true test of arm strength. I think pretty much all NFL QBs can throw the ball anywhere from 65-80 yards.
The true test is the zip he can put on the 15 yard "out".

Finally, we have to remember that this is a guy who could not decisively beat out Rex Grossman as the starting QB for the Bears. Grossman is a marginal NFL player. So while I'm not rooting against Orton, history tells me that last year was pretty typical for him. I wouldn't expect to see much more than that in the future. If he proves me wrong, I would be EXTREMELY happy.

You also have to remember that grossman was the big name QB the franchise guy they IIRC spent a #1 on in 2003 while Kyle was a mere #4 the year 2005 draft IIRC. #106 VS. 22 BIG Difference in expectation level from the FO to the fan levels.

Actually he did beat out grossman in 2008 until his ankle injury took him out of one game and the rest of the year he played on a high ankle sprain. Having his best year as a QB playing hurt for half a year. While he started 15 games as a rookie. He was injured in his second year and he took over for grossman in the third year in the last three games and started all games in 2008. except of a game he missed due to a high ankle sprain. but then he finished the season as the starter playing on a high ankle sprain.

Just had to set the record straight


This is one tough dude to play on the ankle for now about 12 games in his NFL career and 6 games wearing glove to protect his forefinger after a compound (bone broke skin) dislocated finger.

He is Warrior lets give a chance to prove he can through that 15 ears out that so many have dissed him on this past year.


http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton...50&season=2008

Originally Posted by topscribe

You know, I hear that time and time and time again, that Orton could not
beat out Grossman. I guess a whole lot of people around here barely know
where Chicago is, let alone anything about the Bears.

Orton decisively beat out Grossman in 2008. When Orton went down for one
game with a high ankle sprain, Grossman stepped in. The very next week,
Orton took back the starting job, ankle sprain and all.

Let us stop this idiotic assumption that Orton could not beat out Grossman.
Let us not assume we are all morons and cannot check the records to see for
ourselves.

-----

Thanks for the personal shot Top. I would have expected more from you. I'll know better next time.