Thread: Parenting Thread

(tear)

http://sftimes.co/?id=143&src=share_fb_new_143

Damn.

My wife had altar clearing duty at Church yesterday (a surprisingly complex operation in the Anglican Church) so my daughter (a month short of teenager now) and I were chatting with the Rector and Curate after service while we waited for her. My daughter told the Rector the "sometimes, like this morning, I act like a real teenager. Like I gave my parents a hard time when they woke me up for church, and then I got to church and I felt sorry for doing that to them." I then admitted sometimes I am too strict and do yell more loudly at her than was really called for.

I was kind of proud. I told her later one of the hardest things to do in life is to admit our own faults and mistakes, especially without trying to figure out some way to blame those faults and mistakes on somebody else. I told her a lot of grown ups, including me, struggle with that their entire lives.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I was kind of proud. I told her later one of the hardest things to do in life is to admit our own faults and mistakes, especially without trying to figure out some way to blame those faults and mistakes on somebody else. I told her a lot of grown ups, including me, struggle with that their entire lives.

Dread, i dont know what you do for a living - but that succinctly sums up what 3 years at university teaches social workers (and some other stuff - but mainly what you said!)

Next summer, we are planning a road trip to Mt. Rushmore and a few other National Parks along the way (and back). Mr. Gnome and I have discussed the need to save money in order to be able to go on this trip so that means less luxuries and a more modest Christmas this year. One of my middle children asked me if he would get a yearbook for his 8th grade year (he's a 7th grader this year). I said absolutely, a yearbook is a given for at least the last year of middle and high school. He then reminded me that we still need to buy school supplies for this year. I asked about a yearbook for this year and he said "no mom, remember? Vacation?"

Two of my four kids understand frugality. One kid decides what he wants to save up for, then does it. It's usually some big ticket item like a 7-string guitar. My middle school child saves up money then decides what he wants. The other two kids spend it like they have holes in their pockets.

OK, my girl just flat blew me away. My Dad's little brother (72) is losing a fight v. liver and lung cancer, just stopped chemo, and is preparing for home hospice. Its been a long fight and I cannot fault his decision.

Anyways, he was music director in a Presbyterian church, and has followed my daughter's singing progress with a lot of pleasure. Nancy had me call him to find out his favorite hymn (its Jerusalem), then unbeknownst to me contacted our church's music director, and arranged for the full choir to make a recording of Jerusalem just for him, with big thumping organ and all 40+ members. It was a damned fine gesture, and I hope he gets some joy from it. They made the recording yesterday, and I found out when I picked her up from choir practice. I am really proud that a 12 year old kid pulled this off.

My girl turned 13 today. Pray for me....

The best advice for new parents? Don't take advice.

Originally Posted by Clacquam

The best advice for new parents? Don't take advice.

Yeah - because all the experience and research from in the past is nothing compared to the knowledge held by new parents!

Had a parenting expert at our church last Sunday. Gave an interesting lecture. Perhaps his best piece of advice was for parents to not turn personal issues into legal or moral ones (i.e. hair, clothes, tattoos, piercings, etc.). Love the child the way you'd want your Heavenly Father to love you - with acceptance, forgiveness and the freedom to make mistakes all the while knowing that eventually they will get what you are telling them but it may take many many years before they figure it out.

Personally, that might be difficult for me because I think a child's appearance and behavior are somewhat a reflection on their parents. I have a hard time giving respect to someone who has a purple mohawk and a sardine can hanging from his lip with his earlobes stretched out to his shoulders. It just screams "Mommy didn't give me enough attention so I did this to myself." Also makes me wonder how any of these people ever expect to get jobs that pay above minimum wage. I realize God doesn't notice their appearance, only their hearts, but it is so difficult not to think something isn't really really wrong in their ability to relate to reality.

Originally Posted by OrangeHoof

Personally, that might be difficult for me because I think a child's appearance and behavior are somewhat a reflection on their parents. I have a hard time giving respect to someone who has a purple mohawk and a sardine can hanging from his lip with his earlobes stretched out to his shoulders. It just screams "Mommy didn't give me enough attention so I did this to myself." Also makes me wonder how any of these people ever expect to get jobs that pay above minimum wage. I realize God doesn't notice their appearance, only their hearts, but it is so difficult not to think something isn't really really wrong in their ability to relate to reality.

I am with you here. I think because an appearance like that is deliberately cultivated, and that this is done to be deliberately insulting and mocking in the first place, its only natural that I then am insulted. Part of parenting is teaching good manners - maybe even the most important thing.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

I am with you here. I think because an appearance like that is deliberately cultivated, and that this is done to be deliberately insulting and mocking in the first place, its only natural that I then am insulted. Part of parenting is teaching good manners - maybe even the most important thing.

Dread, as you know, i agree with you on many matters, and even the ones i don't - i invariably end up moving towards your opinion a little because of the solid argument you make.

However in this case i really think you are doing the majority of these kids a real disservice - sure rebellion in teenage years is normal and it is also normal to go against social norms, but we know why this happens from a neuroscientific perspective (it is to do with "brain pruning" where it cuts previously made neuro-pathways (behavioural responses to external stimuli) and the re-develops new pathways required in adulthood (it is during this process the rebellion occurs) to help them move from a child to an adult as the brain changes in accordance sexual development and to face the challenges of adult life. Concurrently to this, instead of using the pre-frontal cortex (thinking part of the brain) to make decisions, they use the limbic region (emotional centre - which is also very primitive). There is also an inability to identify risk and consequences during this period.

During this whole period, children/adolescents can not relate to many adults (it is also why they can be radicalized at this age with relative ease), so they find solace in their friends whom they can identify with - often these friends together create an anti-social persona (unconsciously of course) as it bonds them together closer and makes the group stronger, therefore the individual feels stronger and safer.

None of the above behaviour is deterministic for everyone (obviously) - but the brain phase is 100% true for all humans - it is the relationships they have had/currenlty have (which is why supporting loved ones is key) and the experiences as children (abuse/neglect etc) that will determine how this phase turns out.

But to say they do it to offend - is a very shallow assessment of what is going on.

I could go on and on about this - but i don't want people to accuse me of spamming the board - or just being flat out boring.

Originally Posted by daveaitken18

Dread, as you know, i agree with you on many matters, and even the ones i don't - i invariably end up moving towards your opinion a little because of the solid argument you make.

However in this case i really think you are doing the majority of these kids a real disservice - sure rebellion in teenage years is normal and it is also normal to go against social norms, but we know why this happens from a neuroscientific perspective (it is to do with "brain pruning" where it cuts previously made neuro-pathways (behavioural responses to external stimuli) and the re-develops new pathways required in adulthood (it is during this process the rebellion occurs) to help them move from a child to an adult as the brain changes in accordance sexual development and to face the challenges of adult life. Concurrently to this, instead of using the pre-frontal cortex (thinking part of the brain) to make decisions, they use the limbic region (emotional centre - which is also very primitive). There is also an inability to identify risk and consequences during this period.

During this whole period, children/adolescents can not relate to many adults (it is also why they can be radicalized at this age with relative ease), so they find solace in their friends whom they can identify with - often these friends together create an anti-social persona (unconsciously of course) as it bonds them together closer and makes the group stronger, therefore the individual feels stronger and safer.

None of the above behaviour is deterministic for everyone (obviously) - but the brain phase is 100% true for all humans - it is the relationships they have had/currenlty have (which is why supporting loved ones is key) and the experiences as children (abuse/neglect etc) that will determine how this phase turns out.

But to say they do it to offend - is a very shallow assessment of what is going on.

I could go on and on about this - but i don't want people to accuse me of spamming the board - or just being flat out boring.

Dave, first, you have never yet been boring. Those are good points as far as they go, no question. Part of a parents job is to impart mores and customs to our kids, with another part being to help navigate them through some very dangerous years without having them run aground. There is no foolproof way, nor a perfect one. All of us know kids from good families that turn out to be disasters - often who had siblings who transitioned quite successfully into happy functional adults. I believe very strongly in teaching kids to honor and respect customs and traditions. They don't have to like them, or understand them, and given their stage of development I am honestly not al that interested in their critiques of them. Hopefully some day they will.

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Dave, first, you have never yet been boring. Those are good points as far as they go, no question. Part of a parents job is to impart mores and customs to our kids, with another part being to help navigate them through some very dangerous years without having them run aground. There is no foolproof way, nor a perfect one. All of us know kids from good families that turn out to be disasters - often who had siblings who transitioned quite successfully into happy functional adults. I believe very strongly in teaching kids to honor and respect customs and traditions. They don't have to like them, or understand them, and given their stage of development I am honestly not al that interested in their critiques of them. Hopefully some day they will.

I am glad that i am not boring lol

Anyway - regarding your answer - i could not agree more. But my reply initially was to your assertion that kids dress like goths with nose piercings etc - for the purpose of being disrespectful and insulting towards others, that was what i took exception to. i just felt that part was unfair - the rest, yeah, i totally get all that.

In my church, we have a group of teens who sit together near the top of the auditorium seating at the back. Their dress is not outrageous but they slouch and cut up and leave a pile of trash (we allow coffee and snacks during the worship service, something many adults also leave litter which I find disrespectful) behind. I've grumbled a bit to some of the elders about them and the reply they give is "but at least they are here". Yes, and they are getting God's word for an hour whether it sinks in or not.

I'm approaching 60 but I haven't forgotten what it was like to be a teen. Part of what Dave is saying is true but I also agree with Dread. Some teens rebel even when the parents seemed outstanding people and other teens just sort of sulk through those years but otherwise behaved like young adults. I was in the latter group. I didn't have a happy teen life but it wasn't a time of outright disrespect even though the early 1970s were marked by the phrase "do your own thing".

Anyway, I admit judging by appearance is wrong. It's just when it's your own child and you see the reflection of yourself that makes it more difficult to accept the teen that expresses bizarre dress in ways that have a permanent alteration to one's body. The hair can grow back, the clothes can change but the tats and some of the body alterations these people will have to live with the rest of their lives.