Point-Counter Point:Broncos: Deserve credit or just lucky?

Do the Broncos deserve credit for the wins or where they just lucky?

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2007...line---19scpt/

Point-Counterpoint: Broncos: Deserve credit or just lucky?
By Chris Shelton (Contact), Ryan Thorburn (Contact)
Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Deserve credit

Ryan Thorburn

The Denver Broncos are 2-0 and alone at the top of the AFC West.

How they got there doesn't matter.

As Al Davis used to say a long, long time ago — "Just win, baby."

How about giving Jay Cutler some credit for executing the late drives under pressure to put Jason Elam in position for the game-winning field goals?

How about crediting Mike Shanahan for hitting a clutch three-run homer in free agency with the signings of Travis Henry, Brandon Stokley and Dan Graham?

And how about getting off D.J. Williams' back until an opposing offense scores more than 14 points?

That's right, Buffalo scored 14 points and Oakland's offense scored 12 points (the Raiders defense returned an interception back for six points and also had a safety in their 23-20 overtime loss at Invesco Field).

Yes, there are some major issues for Shanahan and his staff to address. Denver needs to shore up its run defense, and Cutler needs to cut down on his turnovers if this team is going to remain in contention.

But in the NFL every team has flaws, including the San Diego Chargers.

LaDainian Tomlinson has 68 yards rushing through two games. Philip Rivers doesn't appear to be much further along than Cutler. Norv Turner's past is already putting a lot of pressure on a team built to win the Super Bowl in the here and now.

The Broncos are going to find a way to beat Jacksonville this Sunday and they are going to have all of their weaknesses exposed the following week at Indianapolis.

And then we'll find out what this team is really all about when the Chargers visit Invesco Field.

Lucky

Chris Shelton

Denver's 2-0 start to the NFL season sure looks good, but it's a mirage.

How many times can the Broncos pull it out at the end the way they did the first two weeks?


Aside from the Shanahanigans used to psych out Sebastian Janikowski on Sunday and the fire drill to rescue the win over Buffalo in the season opener, there's not much to like about the start.

The Broncos allowed Buffalo running back Marshawn Lynch to gain 90 of this season's 154 yards against them, and Oakland's LaMont Jordan had 159 yards on the ground against Denver. Jordan has only rushed for more than 480 yards in one season in his six-year pro career.

If the Broncos can't keep someone such as Jordan in check, what do you expect Jacksonville's Fred Taylor to do to them this week? Taylor is closing in on 10,000 career rushing yards.

It doesn't get any easier for Denver, either, with a trip to Indianapolis next week and a home game against San Diego in the fifth week.

Colts running back Joseph Addai already has 199 rushing yards on a team that has Peyton Manning, and he did it against the Saints and Titans. San Diego brings last year's NFL most valuable player in running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Then there's Jay Cutler, who threw a left-handed shovel pass at Buffalo that brought back memories of Jake Plummer's left-handed shovel pass for an interception. Cutler's passes continue to look thrown behind his receivers and he looks to be struggling with his decision making under pressure.

Let's save the euphoria over this 2-0 start until the Broncos pass some much tougher tests in the next three games.

Good find TX


I agree with both of them.

I don't how you can because they are so different.

Shelton has some good points but I think he's dead wrong on Jay. I mean come on visions of Jake Plummer when Jay had that little left handed shuffle pass? I don't think so. Jay is indecisive? I don't agree with that. An indecisive quarterback isn't going march a team down the field for game winning scores.

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Originally Posted by TXBRONC

I don't how you can because they are so different.

Shelton has some good points but I think he's dead wrong on Jay. I mean come on visions of Jake Plummer when Jay had that little left handed shuffle pass? I don't think so. Jay is indecisive? I don't agree with that. An indecisive quarterback isn't going march a team down the field for game winning scores.

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Sorry but both have good points.

I think Jay will come out of it, but having a tad bit more time to get the ball of with out having a DL guy in your face mask will not hurt either.

For the matter in almost every game since the PIT playoff game.

For all thats made about their defense, theyve only yielded 1 TD in each game. I agree though that I hope they improve. But while the defense hasnt yielded many points, the offense has been able to move the ball. If they continue to move the ball like that, the points should come in greater abundance.

yay "Shanahanigans"

Haha...nice

If the left-handed shovel pass was the one he did that was incomplete to an inelligible receiver, that was a heady play, because he was just trying to avoid the sack, not get a completion. I don't recall that being left-handed, though, so he might be talking about something else.

The thing with both views (and I'm sure it's intentional), is that they're polar opposites of one another. It makes for an interesting point-counterpoint, but the truth is likely in the less sensational middle.

Like Bowlen says, he's happy with the teams progress, as it's still learning, yet it's also winning at the same time, which is rare. Take San Diego, with all the same talented players as last season, yet struggling to get their offense in gear as they adjust to new coaching. If the Bears offense could be just decent, they could easily be 0-2 right now.

And like the Ferrari analogy on individual players when Brandon Marshall was injured, the same can be said of teams. There are teams that can only win when everything's clicking on all cylinders, and there are teams that can win ugly. This team can definitely win ugly. :woot:

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Lucky

Chris Shelton

Denver's 2-0 start to the NFL season sure looks good, but it's a mirage.

How many times can the Broncos pull it out at the end the way they did the first two weeks?

Aside from the Shanahanigans used to psych out Sebastian Janikowski on Sunday and the fire drill to rescue the win over Buffalo in the season opener, there's not much to like about the start.

The Broncos allowed Buffalo running back Marshawn Lynch to gain 90 of this season's 154 yards against them, and Oakland's LaMont Jordan had 159 yards on the ground against Denver. Jordan has only rushed for more than 480 yards in one season in his six-year pro career.

If the Broncos can't keep someone such as Jordan in check, what do you expect Jacksonville's Fred Taylor to do to them this week? Taylor is closing in on 10,000 career rushing yards.

It doesn't get any easier for Denver, either, with a trip to Indianapolis next week and a home game against San Diego in the fifth week.

Colts running back Joseph Addai already has 199 rushing yards on a team that has Peyton Manning, and he did it against the Saints and Titans. San Diego brings last year's NFL most valuable player in running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Then there's Jay Cutler, who threw a left-handed shovel pass at Buffalo that brought back memories of Jake Plummer's left-handed shovel pass for an interception. Cutler's passes continue to look thrown behind his receivers and he looks to be struggling with his decision making under pressure.

Let's save the euphoria over this 2-0 start until the Broncos pass some much tougher tests in the next three games.

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If the media (Shelton) is'nt whining about one thing (losing), their whining about something else (winning).:rolleyes:

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If the Broncos can't keep someone such as Jordan in check, what do you expect Jacksonville's Fred Taylor to do to them this week? Taylor is closing in on 10,000 career rushing yards.

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Wha??

You meen the same Fred"Tender To The Touch"Taylor that has a eye popping 73 total yards rushing in two games! :ahhhhh:

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San Diego brings last year's NFL most valuable player in running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

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And . . .































He has 68 total yards rushing! (That's a 1.9 ypc on the rictor scale) :lol:

Hey, you gotta take your shots on L.T. when ya gett'um! ;)

A little perspective on "lucky" teams....

In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens had 6 games where they failed to score a TD.

In case you may have forgotten, that's the year they won the Super Bowl.

My point? As golf great Gary Player once said....

The harder you work, the luckier you get.

You can say the Broncos have been lucky, but the bottom line is, they made their own luck by working hard. We have the #1 offense in the NFL and the #2 defense.

While no one would argue that we've left numerous opportunities to put opponents away on the field, when you are ranked that high, you're creating situations where good things happen.

Sometimes, even "lucky" things.

Eventually, that hard work is going to produce wins where there can be no question about luck or talent.

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Originally Posted by broncos_mtnman

A little perspective on "lucky" teams....

In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens had 6 games where they failed to score a TD.

In case you may have forgotten, that's the year they won the Super Bowl.

My point? As golf great Gary Player once said....

The harder you work, the luckier you get.

You can say the Broncos have been lucky, but the bottom line is, they made their own luck by working hard. We have the #1 offense in the NFL and the #2 defense.

While no one would argue that we've left numerous opportunities to put opponents away on the field, when you are ranked that high, you're creating situations where good things happen.

Sometimes, even "lucky" things.

Eventually, that hard work is going to produce wins where there can be no question about luck or talent.

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In just every game mistakes will be made and opportunities will arise the team that's better advantage of there opponents miscues usually wins the game.

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Originally Posted by broncos_mtnman

A little perspective on "lucky" teams....

In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens had 6 games where they failed to score a TD.

In case you may have forgotten, that's the year they won the Super Bowl.

My point? As golf great Gary Player once said....

The harder you work, the luckier you get.

You can say the Broncos have been lucky, but the bottom line is, they made their own luck by working hard. We have the #1 offense in the NFL and the #2 defense.

While no one would argue that we've left numerous opportunities to put opponents away on the field, when you are ranked that high, you're creating situations where good things happen.

Sometimes, even "lucky" things.

Eventually, that hard work is going to produce wins where there can be no question about luck or talent.

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Nice post, man! :salute:

Shanny and the Broncos work hard to put themselves in situations where they have an opportunity to win. Contrast that to the Bills who, on offense, tried to play it safe on offense, because they were trying not to lose.

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Originally Posted by lex

For all thats made about their defense, theyve only yielded 1 TD in each game. I agree though that I hope they improve. But while the defense hasnt yielded many points, the offense has been able to move the ball. If they continue to move the ball like that, the points should come in greater abundance.

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Shanahan said that in an other article I read just a day or two ago.

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Originally Posted by broncos_mtnman

A little perspective on "lucky" teams....

In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens had 6 games where they failed to score a TD.

In case you may have forgotten, that's the year they won the Super Bowl.

My point? As golf great Gary Player once said....

The harder you work, the luckier you get.

You can say the Broncos have been lucky, but the bottom line is, they made their own luck by working hard. We have the #1 offense in the NFL and the #2 defense.

While no one would argue that we've left numerous opportunities to put opponents away on the field, when you are ranked that high, you're creating situations where good things happen.

Sometimes, even "lucky" things.

Eventually, that hard work is going to produce wins where there can be no question about luck or talent.

---

Not picking on you, but did YOU really just write that?
:laugh:

Its funny how the tide has turned....season has just about started the same...offense has struggled to score, but its okay because in "stats" we are NUMBER 1 !!!

Again not picking on YOU but just realize its 2 weeks into the season. :first:

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Originally Posted by Watchthemiddle

Not picking on you, but did YOU really just write that?
:laugh:

Its funny how the tide has turned....season has just about started the same...offense has struggled to score, but its okay because in "stats" we are NUMBER 1 !!!

Again not picking on YOU but just realize its 2 weeks into the season. :first:

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No there are some big differences WTM. Last year we struggled to score because we struggled to move the ball. The problem with scoring this year is that we we missing opportunities when we are in the red zone, but we are moving the ball. Last year close games like these last we didn't win.

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Originally Posted by TXBRONC

No there are some big differences WTM. Last year we struggled to score because we struggled to move the ball. The problem with scoring this year is that we we missing opportunities when we are in the red zone, but we are moving the ball. Last year close games like these last we didn't win.

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Its all relative. Every SINGLE year...whether it be last 2006. 05, 04, 03 ,02 etc...since the Super Bowl years we have failed to be a dominant force in the redzone. Its still that way.

I hate to say it ( because I don't want to start a Jake war ) but no one can say that it wasnt' the same under him. We moved the ball effectively from the 20-20 and then stalled.

I didn't have and answer for it then whether it be the QB, play calling, or personel..I still don't.

I just want to see an offense with Javon, Marshall, Graham, Henry, Sheffler, Stokley...and CUtler to put up more.

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Originally Posted by Watchthemiddle

We moved the ball effectively from the 20-20 and then stalled.

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Not exactly ....

1st game, 2006 - 17 first downs, 259 total yards (161 rushing, 98 passing)
2nd game, 2006 - 18 first downs, 318 total yards (145 rushing, 173 passing)

1st game, 2007 - 23 first downs, 470 total yards (171 rushing, 294 passing)
2nd game, 2007 - 26 first downs, 441 total yards (181 rushing, 260 passing)

So, comparing the 1st 2 games last year to the 1st 2 games this year, we didn't move the ball anywhere near as well as we are doing this year. Plus, we've actually scored more this year within the 1st 2 games than we had the first 6 games last year.

In the same train of thought that broncos_mtnman mentioned, with the yardages the Broncos put up this year, they are in better possition to score more points.

With the yardages at the same time last year at this point, there was virtually no opportunity to score a lot of points, so that each missed opportunity to score becomes more of a backbreaker. This year, we give ourselves much more chances to make up for missed opportunities.

That is a huge improvement in an offense with lots of new skill players and adjustments in the offensive line. They just need more games to get better.

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Originally Posted by Watchthemiddle

Its all relative. Every SINGLE year...whether it be last 2006. 05, 04, 03 ,02 etc...since the Super Bowl years we have failed to be a dominant force in the redzone. Its still that way.

I hate to say it ( because I don't want to start a Jake war ) but no one can say that it wasn't' the same under him. We moved the ball effectively from the 20-20 and then stalled.

I didn't have and answer for it then whether it be the QB, play calling, or personnel..I still don't.

I just want to see an offense with Javon, Marshall, Graham, Henry, Sheffler, Stokley...and CUtler to put up more.

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You and I disagree then, last you we did not move the ball effectively our 3rd down conversion rate was one worst in the League. However, our red zone scoring when we could get there was good, unfortunately we didn't get there nearly enough. So fare we're getting into the red zone we just finishing drives, but with as well as we are moving the ball that will come in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TXBRONC

You and disagree then, last you we did not move the ball effectively our 3rd down conversion rate was one worst in the League. However, our red zone scoring when we could get there was good, unfortunately we didn't get there nearly enough. So fare we're getting into the red zone we just finishing drives, but with as well as we are moving the ball that will come in my opinion.

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Playcalling. Seems to me that the playcalling has been somewhat questionable. That stupid FB dive needs to get chucked or Denver needs to get a big FB to pound it. Mike Bell can't do it. You can't just throw away a down and that's what that play amounts to. It isn't only that play though, practically every drive there are a few playcalls that have me scratching my head.

Shanahan is calling a much more concervative game. He needs to get a little more creative and not be so predictable especially inside the 10.

Maybe he feels Jay is not ready to handle complex plays...maybe he is just playing with his new toy and seeing how it handles...but Denver cannot afford to throw away plays against the teams coming up.

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Originally Posted by omac

Not exactly ....

1st game, 2006 - 17 first downs, 259 total yards (161 rushing, 98 passing)
2nd game, 2006 - 18 first downs, 318 total yards (145 rushing, 173 passing)

1st game, 2007 - 23 first downs, 470 total yards (171 rushing, 294 passing)
2nd game, 2007 - 26 first downs, 441 total yards (181 rushing, 260 passing)

So, comparing the 1st 2 games last year to the 1st 2 games this year, we didn't move the ball anywhere near as well as we are doing this year. Plus, we've actually scored more this year within the 1st 2 games than we had the first 6 games last year.

In the same train of thought that broncos_mtnman mentioned, with the yardages the Broncos put up this year, they are in better possition to score more points.

With the yardages at the same time last year at this point, there was virtually no opportunity to score a lot of points, so that each missed opportunity to score becomes more of a backbreaker. This year, we give ourselves much more chances to make up for missed opportunities.

That is a huge improvement in an offense with lots of new skill players and adjustments in the offensive line. They just need more games to get better.

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Well now have you factored in who was available to help move that ball this year vs last year.

Henry>>>>tater who could have never gained any yards behind this years OLINE
graham>>alexander
walker>>>walker who was coming off a ACL
Marshall>>smith who was playing on one hip

Then you might compare them to who we played.

STL>> BUF much better offense in STL def was not to shabby either

We had zip on our DLine last year and coyer was a joke.

Have we moved the ball better then last year sure have

but it is not all Jay vs Jake here either.

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Originally Posted by LDB

Playcalling. Seems to me that the playcalling has been somewhat questionable. That stupid FB dive needs to get chucked or Denver needs to get a big FB to pound it. Mike Bell can't do it. You can't just throw away a down and that's what that play amounts to. It isn't only that play though, practically every drive there are a few playcalls that have me scratching my head.

Shanahan is calling a much more concervative game. He needs to get a little more creative and not be so predictable especially inside the 10.

Maybe he feels Jay is not ready to handle complex plays...maybe he is just playing with his new toy and seeing how it handles...but Denver cannot afford to throw away plays against the teams coming up.

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I don't know LDB, our second touchdown was on a fullback dive. Shanahan might be using it a little more than he has in the past, but I don't think its much more. You might also remember two Denver's TD in Super Bowl XXXII were off of the fullback dive.

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Originally Posted by TXBRONC

I don't know LDB, our second touchdown was on a fullback dive. Shanahan might be using it a little more than he has in the past, but I don't think its much more. You might also remember two Denver's TD in Super Bowl XXXII were off of the fullback dive.

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Ok...if you need a 1 yard gain, then try it. Problem is I have seen Shanahan use it in both games in long yardage situations.

I also believe that Griffith was a much better FB than Bell. Given the right FB and it might be more successful.

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Originally Posted by LDB

Ok...if you need a 1 yard gain, then try it. Problem is I have seen Shanahan use it in both games in long yardage situations.

I also believe that Griffith was a much better FB than Bell. Given the right FB and it might be more successful.

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You may be correct here but Bell had a bunch of TD's (5 or 6) from short yardage last year.

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Originally Posted by LDB

Ok...if you need a 1 yard gain, then try it. Problem is I have seen Shanahan use it in both games in long yardage situations.

I also believe that Griffith was a much better FB than Bell. Given the right FB and it might be more successful.

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No doubt, at the time Griffith was the best blocking fullback in the game and yeah was much more polished than Bell is. Bell's only been playing the position for about a mouth.

I remember the situations that you are speaking of. However he also used a I believe it was a draw play with Young that gained about 20 yards in a 3rd and long situation.

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Originally Posted by LDB

Playcalling. Seems to me that the playcalling has been somewhat questionable. That stupid FB dive needs to get chucked or Denver needs to get a big FB to pound it. Mike Bell can't do it. You can't just throw away a down and that's what that play amounts to. It isn't only that play though, practically every drive there are a few playcalls that have me scratching my head.

Shanahan is calling a much more concervative game. He needs to get a little more creative and not be so predictable especially inside the 10.

Maybe he feels Jay is not ready to handle complex plays...maybe he is just playing with his new toy and seeing how it handles...but Denver cannot afford to throw away plays against the teams coming up.

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Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the FB dive play either, but it has provided 33.3% of our offensive TD production so far this year... :wacko: (which, of course, isn't saying much). I don't think they should scrap it all together, but once a game is probably enough (defense willing).

Yeah, this run, run, run, kick inside the 10 stuff must stop. Turn the kid loose, I say! :ninja:

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Originally Posted by Mount-n-Groan

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the FB dive play either, but it has provided 33.3% of our offensive TD production so far this year... :wacko: (which, of course, isn't saying much). I don't think they should scrap it all together, but once a game is probably enough (defense willing).

Yeah, this run, run, run, kick inside the 10 stuff must stop. Turn the kid loose, I say! :ninja:

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nice to see you over here your post is a good one.

I think they have that play in there to keep the defense honest.

remember that mikey does the scripted plays for more than just making yards.

He is a chess master when he calls a play via the script it is mostly for seeing how the defense handles it. They go over in the picture book how they lined up and how they reacted to it. He is setting them up for something else off the same formation for later in the game.

When the defense starts reacting to us they have lost the game. When they have to stop and think about it for even a micro second we have the advantage.

That's what I think. Using the FB dive is way taking some pressure off of Henry.

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Originally Posted by Watchthemiddle

Not picking on you, but did YOU really just write that?
:laugh:

Its funny how the tide has turned....season has just about started the same...offense has struggled to score, but its okay because in "stats" we are NUMBER 1 !!!

Again not picking on YOU but just realize its 2 weeks into the season. :first:

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I don't feel like you're picking on me.

I think there's a drastic difference between this year and last year when it comes to scoring stuggles.

As someone has already posted, we have moved the ball substantially better than last year over the first two games. This will eventually result in far more scoring opportunities than in the past.

I'm not naive to the fact that stats don't mean anything when it comes to scoring. The point of posting what I did was to show that our lack of scoring isn't due to a lack of offensive production. That's all...

Yep, I know that we're only in the second week of the season, but guess what, we're 2-0 this year. That wasn't the case last year or the year before.

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Originally Posted by LDB

Shanahan is calling a much more concervative game. He needs to get a little more creative and not be so predictable especially inside the 10.

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I don't know if I agree that we are being more conservative. How many times have you seen a QB option run from our own endzone in years past? I know that's not a red zone play, but I think it shows that Shanny is opening up his options on the offense.

I don't think we would be leading the NFL in total yards if we were being conservative.

However, I do agree about the FB play. So far, it ain't workin'.

:beer:

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Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Well now have you factored in who was available to help move that ball this year vs last year.

Henry>>>>tater who could have never gained any yards behind this years OLINE
graham>>alexander
walker>>>walker who was coming off a ACL
Marshall>>smith who was playing on one hip

Then you might compare them to who we played.

STL>> BUF much better offense in STL def was not to shabby either

We had zip on our DLine last year and coyer was a joke.

Have we moved the ball better then last year sure have

but it is not all Jay vs Jake here either.

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Exactly. While I am tickled with Jay's performance so far, I remain miffed
that they did not seem to give Jake the same considerations when it came
to providing weapons.

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Originally Posted by topscribe

Exactly. While I am tickled with Jay's performance so far, I remain miffed
that they did not seem to give Jake the same considerations when it came
to providing weapons.

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Only one comment. This isn't a Jake or for that matter, a JAY thread.

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Originally Posted by broncos_mtnman

Only one comment. This isn't a Jake or for that matter, a JAY thread.

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The point came up, so I responded to the point.

I do not take issue with a side coment once in a while. That does not
constitute "off-topic." You took issue because you don't like Jake. Fine.
Ignore it, and go on your way. Simple. :coffee:

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I dont mind a FB dive inside the five but the last one that we ran was inside their 15 and it was on a 2nd and 10. I think some of the play calling goes a little more conservative after Cutler turns the ball over. It seems like they try to take the pressure off him so to not compound mistakes and let him settle down again.

The original question whether the Broncos deserve credit for their two wins or were they just lucky is irrelevant. To win by complete domination on both sides of the ball counts as a W. To win mainly with either the defensive side or the offensive side counts as a W. To win on one play or an officials call counts as a W. There are no degrees of winning nor are there any style points given. The Broncos are 2-0. There is no deserving credit to be considered. Why you won or why you lost is IMO meaningless justification.

I am sure that Mike Shanahan appreciates meaningfull critique and suggestions in play calling. I would imagine that he will take it under advisement. His offenses have struggled during his twelve years with the Broncos.;)

If there is one thing that I have learned in my 40+ years of football, you are never as good as you think that you are when you win and never as bad as you think that you are when you lose. IMO that concept applies to the Jay vs Jake comparisons. Jay is the Denver QB why not compare him to himself- compare what he did or didn't do this game to the Buffalo game or to his play last year. :deadhorse:

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Originally Posted by Jrwiz

Well now have you factored in who was available to help move that ball this year vs last year.

Henry>>>>tater who could have never gained any yards behind this years OLINE
graham>>alexander
walker>>>walker who was coming off a ACL
Marshall>>smith who was playing on one hip

Then you might compare them to who we played.

STL>> BUF much better offense in STL def was not to shabby either

We had zip on our DLine last year and coyer was a joke.

Have we moved the ball better then last year sure have

but it is not all Jay vs Jake here either.

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This ISN'T a Jay vs Jake; my statement had to do with the TEAM doing better offensively this year than last year, in response to the statement that Denver's always been great at moving the ball from the 20 to the 20.

On your Bills vs. Rams comparison, you could also note that on defense, they were both good against the pass, and both poor against the run, but with both stats, the Bills were BETTER than the Rams. (Passing Defense '06: Bills 7th, Rams 8th; Rushing Defense: Bills 28th, Rams 31st).

The difference is, against what was last season the 7th best passing defense in the league, the Broncos were able to gain about 300 yards passing. (added) Last season, against the 8th best pass defense, we were only able to gain 98 yards passing.

So yes, like my original point, this TEAM has a much better offense than last year's team. I did not make a Jay vs. Jake reference here. I compared the offenses of the TEAMS. :cheers:

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Originally Posted by Dean

The original question whether the Broncos deserve credit for their two wins or were they just lucky is irrelevant. To win by complete domination on both sides of the ball counts as a W. To win mainly with either the defensive side or the offensive side counts as a W. To win on one play or an officials call counts as a W. There are no degrees of winning nor are there any style points given. The Broncos are 2-0. There is no deserving credit to be considered. Why you won or why you lost is IMO meaningless justification.

I am sure that Mike Shanahan appreciates meaningfull critique and suggestions in play calling. I would imagine that he will take it under advisement. His offenses have struggled during his twelve years with the Broncos.;)

If there is one thing that I have learned in my 40+ years of football, you are never as good as you think that you are when you win and never as bad as you think that you are when you lose. IMO that concept applies to the Jay vs Jake comparisons. Jay is the Denver QB why not compare him to himself- compare what he did or didn't do this game to the Buffalo game or to his play last year. :deadhorse:

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Great post, Dean! :salute:

A win is a win, and an ugly win counts as much as a perfect looking one. And just to add, even "polished" teams like Indy have bad games or the matchups that make them look less mighty than they are. No one would confuse the Titans as one of the best teams in the league, yet the Colts seem to play their worst against them.

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Originally Posted by broncos_mtnman

Only one comment. This isn't a Jake or for that matter, a JAY thread.

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Yeah, I agree, your comments as well as mine have had to do with this TEAM's offense being better this season than last season, not which had the better QB.

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Originally Posted by omac

Yeah, I agree, your comments as well as mine have had to do with this TEAM's offense being better this season than last season, not which had the better QB.

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Exactly!!

:2thumbs:

I can agree that both make good points for their case and after we play the Colts and Chargers, we will surely see where we stand. Shanahan has a lot of toys (weapons) to play with this year and will get everything clicking. True, we have won by 1 and 3 points in weeks 1 and 2 respectivley, but you have to realize that we have put up 400+ yds. each game. If we keep putting up those yards then 30 point games will come.

Our run :defense: is suspect at the moment and is something that is going to have to fixed for us to be a solid team. We are only two games into a season with a new scheme........Rome wasn't built in a day.

The one thing I have a problem with the "lucky" side are his comments on Cutler. The reference to Plummer on Jay's shuffle pass in Buffalo are totally different because as some people forget Jay has only played seven games and IMO is doing quite well considering. Plummer was making mistakes that a 10 year veteran shouldn't do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broncosfanscott

I can agree that both make good points for their case and after we play the Colts and Chargers, we will surely see where we stand. Shanahan has a lot of toys (weapons) to play with this year and will get everything clicking. True, we have won by 1 and 3 points in weeks 1 and 2 respectivley, but you have to realize that we have put up 400+ yds. each game. If we keep putting up those yards then 30 point games will come.

Our run :defense: is suspect at the moment and is something that is going to have to fixed for us to be a solid team. We are only two games into a season with a new scheme........Rome wasn't built in a day.

The one thing I have a problem with the "lucky" side are his comments on Cutler. The reference to Plummer on Jay's shuffle pass in Buffalo are totally different because as some people forget Jay has only played seven games and IMO is doing quite well considering. Plummer was making mistakes that a 10 year veteran shouldn't do.

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I don't see a left handed shuffle pass as being a mistake, its just the same as throwing it down the field left handed.