Broncos shopping Travis Henry

[BOSSHOGG30]

Broncos RB Travis Henry, WR Javon Walker, and LB Ian Gold are all being shopped, but the team is up against the clock.

Henry's $6 million option bonus is due Feb. 29, Walker's $5.4 million bonus is due March 4, and Gold's $500,000 bonus is due March 3. Meanwhile, John Lynch's retirement decision should be made by March 4, when he is due a $1.12 million bonus.
Source: Denver Post

[pnbronco]

Broncos RB Travis Henry, WR Javon Walker, and LB Ian Gold are all being shopped, but the team is up against the clock.

Henry's $6 million option bonus is due Feb. 29, Walker's $5.4 million bonus is due March 4, and Gold's $500,000 bonus is due March 3. Meanwhile, John Lynch's retirement decision should be made by March 4, when he is due a $1.12 million bonus.
Source: Denver Post

Thanks BH for the heads up.

[slim]

Quick, someone get Carl Peterson on the phone. :D

[Broncolingus]

I'm not sure they'll be a bunch of teams jumping at (or 'on' in Henry's case) him...even teams desperate for a RB.

I wish this guy could've stayed healthy...

We'll throw in Gold and Walker too, but I don't really think that makes the pot any sweeter...

[Npba900]

Ummmmmmm......could this be a sign that Denver is really considering drafting Jon Stewart with their first pick!!!

[BOSSHOGG30]

Henry would make a very good back up for someone who already has a decent starting runningback. Henry is a very good back, but he can't handle the load of the long NFL season. He would make a good one two punch with a team like the Eagles and Westbrook, or Panthers with Williams or even the Steelers and Parker.

[Dean]

Quick, someone get Carl Peterson on the phone. :D

Don't call Carl call the 'skins. They always seem overjoyed to get taken to the woodshed in another trade with the Broncos.:D

[slim]

Henry would make a very good back up for someone who already has a decent starting runningback. Henry is a very good back, but he can't handle the load of the long NFL season. He would make a good one two punch with a team like the Eagles and Westbrook, or Panthers with Williams or even the Steelers and Parker.

I knew you would bring the iggles up :D

Henry straight up for Hunt?

[Npba900]

Broncos RB Travis Henry, WR Javon Walker, and LB Ian Gold are all being shopped, but the team is up against the clock.

Henry's $6 million option bonus is due Feb. 29, Walker's $5.4 million bonus is due March 4, and Gold's $500,000 bonus is due March 3. Meanwhile, John Lynch's retirement decision should be made by March 4, when he is due a $1.12 million bonus.
Source: Denver Post

What type of cap hits will the Broncos take by trading or cutting both Henry and Walker??? Does anyone know?

[BOSSHOGG30]

I knew you would bring the iggles up :D

Henry straight up for Hunt?

Actually I forgot they have Hunt.. so they won't be interested in Henry to back up with Westbrook... guess you have to take the Eagles off that list... they already have a stud power back in the wings.

[BOSSHOGG30]

What type of cap hits will the Broncos take by trading or cutting both Henry and Walker??? Does anyone know?

The same as if they keep them. It only saves them some of the bonus money.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Maybe the Jets would want Henry, Walker and a pick for Vilma?

lol... I doubt anyone will want Henry.... Not with this draft class and Julius Jones and Michael Turner as free agents.

We are stuck with him guys, unless we cut him... and I doubt that... Denver better get Henry's agent on the phone and work out a new contract

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Thanks for the news BOSS! Henry, Walker and Gold leaving would free up so much cap room for the future to re-sign guys like Tony, Brandon and Elvis. I think it's clear as day that Denver wants to take the hits now, and be able to re-sign the players that have been doing good for them here in Denver now.

I don't care if we ship all those turds off and only get fourth round value in return.

Get something.

Hell, just get rid of them.

[Drill-N-Fill]

Walker's value should be around mid to late 3rd highest.
Henry's value is nothing higher than a 4th b/c of his gifted past
Gold's worth 6th or 7th.

The only way I see us getting any real value is if we package and send some picks to move up in round 1 or 2. Getting 1 of the two best DT would be ideal.

[Bronco9798]

A cry baby, a druggie, and a bum. I'm sure the phone is ringing off the hook at Dove Valley.

[shank]

A cry baby, a druggie, and a bum. I'm sure the phone is ringing off the hook at Dove Valley.

*ring ring*

shanny: hello
caller: hello sir, i'd like to talk to you about your current long distance plan
shanny: sure, but first, i'd like to talk to YOU about ian gold...

[BOSSHOGG30]

A cry baby, a druggie, and a bum. I'm sure the phone is ringing off the hook at Dove Valley.

I know three people for sure that are calling Al Davis, Carl Peterson and Kelvin Sampson

[Requiem / The Dagda]

A cry baby, a druggie, and a bum. I'm sure the phone is ringing off the hook at Dove Valley.

Yeah, it probably is. They're begging for mercy. A phone call from each of Travis 43 children to Mike might do the trick.

[shank]

people talk about packaging the three, what about shipping them to the bears?

they have terrible wide receivers, benson is a joke, and they will lose briggs.

(be nice when you tell me why not :D)

[BOSSHOGG30]

people talk about packaging the three, what about shipping them to the bears?

they have terrible wide receivers, benson is a joke, and they will lose briggs.

(be nice when you tell me why not :D)

I don't think we can ship them together to any team. Their salary cap figures would be way too high. Let's hope that Denver actually goes through with these rumors and starts the rebuilding process off with a bang this season.

[Bronco9798]

people talk about packaging the three, what about shipping them to the bears?

they have terrible wide receivers, benson is a joke, and they will lose briggs.

(be nice when you tell me why not :D)

The Bears or any team is not going to take on 3 salaries after they all sucked or didnt play last year. It makes no economical sense. You just can't ship them ands say here make your own salaries for them.

[shank]

I don't think we can ship them together to any team. Their salary cap figures would be way too high. Let's hope that Denver actually goes through with these rumors and starts the rebuilding process off with a bang this season.

true, i realized this shortly after i posted. i don't see why anyone would trade for these guys knowing they will probably be FA by march...

[Requiem / The Dagda]

*ring ring*

shanny: hello
caller: hello sir, i'd like to talk to you about your current long distance plan
shanny: sure, but first, i'd like to talk to YOU about ian gold...

Just brilliant dude, just awesome. :beer:

[WARHORSE]

Washington is interested in Walker. But theyre interested in Chad Johnson more. Lets hope Marvin Lewis is gonna stick to his guns and not trade the cry baby.

For Walker and a snickers bar, Im sure we can get their first round pick this year, their second rounder next year, Ladell Betts, and a conditional first in 2010.

..........ok, lets throw in Henry as well. :coffee:

[RiversSucks]

Can I see the article that it was on?

Because I'm checking the latest article on the denverpost and it says nothing about them being shopped. It just says they're expected to be offered for trade. Of course the expectancy is from someone not affiliated with the Denver Broncos.

So did you make up the 'shopped' part?

[Drill-N-Fill]

Washington is interested in Walker. But theyre interested in Chad Johnson more. Lets hope Marvin Lewis is gonna stick to his guns and not trade the cry baby.

For Walker and a snickers bar, Im sure we can get their first round pick this year, their second rounder next year, Ladell Betts, and a conditional first in 2010.

..........ok, lets throw in Henry as well. :coffee:


You might have something with Betts. He wasn't used at all last year b/c Portis had a good season. And Betts in our system would be very good. He runs well, gets the tough yards, and is hard to bring down, plus he's light on the wallet. I would trade the 3 duds for Betts and a pick. We get some cap relief, and a young drug-free player.

[shank]

You might have something with Betts. He wasn't used at all last year b/c Portis had a good season. And Betts in our system would be very good. He runs well, gets the tough yards, and is hard to bring down, plus he's light on the wallet. I would trade the 3 duds for Betts and a pick. We get some cap relief, and a young drug-free player.

isn't washington already like 20 million over the cap or something ridiculous?

i don't think they can swing a deal for any of these 3 because of money alone.

[WARHORSE]

isn't washington already like 20 million over the cap or something ridiculous?

i don't think they can swing a deal for any of these 3 because of money alone.

Of course they can. Its Daniel Snyder.

He can buy ANYTHING.:confused:

[WARHORSE]

You might have something with Betts. He wasn't used at all last year b/c Portis had a good season. And Betts in our system would be very good. He runs well, gets the tough yards, and is hard to bring down, plus he's light on the wallet. I would trade the 3 duds for Betts and a pick. We get some cap relief, and a young drug-free player.


There was alot of sarcasm in my post...............but it is true...Betts would do well for us.

[Drill-N-Fill]

isn't washington already like 20 million over the cap or something ridiculous?

i don't think they can swing a deal for any of these 3 because of money alone.

Maybe so, but which year have they ever been conservative in trading/FA's. They always find a way to get it done.

[shank]

Maybe so, but which year have they ever been conservative in trading/FA's. They always find a way to get it done.

it's inevitable that it will catch up with them at some point.

20 million over with 45 players under contract sounds like this could possibly be the year:elefant:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I actually wanna keep Walker. IF he is healthy our WR corps will be incredible. Once he gets going again and starts catching the rock, he'll be fine. We've had WR tandems before who each caught 100 balls and each had 1,000 yard seasons in the same year. Why couldn't it happen again? We keep JW and kick Ian to the curb. HOPE Henry restructures and we'll have more flexibility on draft day.

[Bronco9798]

I actually wanna keep Walker. IF he is healthy our WR corps will be incredible. Once he gets going again and starts catching the rock, he'll be fine. We've had WR tandems before who each caught 100 balls and each had 1,000 yard seasons in the same year. Why couldn't it happen again? We keep JW and kick Ian to the curb. HOPE Henry restructures and we'll have more flexibility on draft day.

And once Marshall starts leading the team in catches and receiving yards, JW will start his "ME" act and then we have to deal with an in-season distraction. Rid yourself of the problem now and get rid of him. He is who he is, a ME guy. We don't have time to deal with that this up-coming year.

[Devilspawn]

To make it more appropriate, they should sell Travis Henry on the street corner.

[Hoshdude7]

I'll buy Henry and Walker. I know a guy that might want to buy Ian Gold, but with all these slavery/animal cruelty laws it will be hard to find use for him.

[Tned]

Can I see the article that it was on?

Because I'm checking the latest article on the denverpost and it says nothing about them being shopped. It just says they're expected to be offered for trade. Of course the expectancy is from someone not affiliated with the Denver Broncos.

So did you make up the 'shopped' part?

Rotoworld used 'shopped' here:

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=DEN

Referencing this article:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_8278262

[SmilinAssasSin27]

And once Marshall starts leading the team in catches and receiving yards, JW will start his "ME" act and then we have to deal with an in-season distraction. Rid yourself of the problem now and get rid of him. He is who he is, a ME guy. We don't have time to deal with that this up-coming year.

I hardly think dude is gonna be counting catches. We get him the ball and win games and he'll be fine. He's not out committing crime or embarrasing the team. He whines a bit. So what? As much as I like Marshall, JW was the man in 2006 and woulda been in 2007 as well if it weren't for the injuries. He may not be THE man in 2008, but he can definitely get his...and if he does, we are a MUCH better team.

[Npba900]

I hardly think dude is gonna be counting catches. We get him the ball and win games and he'll be fine. He's not out committing crime or embarrasing the team. He whines a bit. So what? As much as I like Marshall, JW was the man in 2006 and woulda been in 2007 as well if it weren't for the injuries. He may not be THE man in 2008, but he can definitely get his...and if he does, we are a MUCH better team.

I hope a compromise is worked out btwn Walker and Shanny. We fans need to remember that Marshall will not sneak up on teams next year! And will see more double teams if Walker is relased or injured. Point is, if Brandon is to repeat his 07 performance, he's going to need a WR of Walkers skills (when healthy).

[underrated29]

dam skippy guys. I have been one of henry's biggest backers this year but i would much rather keep javon than travis. For all the reason as you have said above. If we do and we draft stewart,mmm, and take a wr with a 2nd or 3rd we will have our entire offense that is like 5 years in the nfl or less. marsh,cut,sheff are all 2 years, javon is 4 so he is oldest and our rooks.

Dam thats a line up to scare the pants of the afcw for years!!! We need javon here. Stokes isnt going to take dble teams, and our rook i would presume will need some time to get acclimated, so that leaves glen. yeah:tsk:

Its essential to cutler development to scan the field and marshalls to have javon here to demand the double team, or burn the d if he is not.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Washington is interested in Walker. But theyre interested in Chad Johnson more. Lets hope Marvin Lewis is gonna stick to his guns and not trade the cry baby.

For Walker and a snickers bar, Im sure we can get their first round pick this year, their second rounder next year, Ladell Betts, and a conditional first in 2010.

..........ok, lets throw in Henry as well. :coffee:


Washington is also the only team that is still above the 2008 salary cap requirements. 6 million dollars over matter of fact.

[dogfish]

offer any or all of them to detroit for shaun rogers. . . .


"we'll give ya some of our douchebags for one of yours". . . . .

[Krugan]

I still dont see where people are claiming Walker was so outstanding in 06.

He had 65 catches, a whoping 15 more then a crippled Rod Smith. He didnt help improve one of the worst offenses we have had in years. Wel maybe he helped abit, without out him our O would have been a little more terrible, if thats possible.

He was anything but a show stopper.

He re-injures the knee this past season, is gone for the majority of it, came back and couldnt get open, and cries almost instantly.

Not what I would want to be centering my WR crew. Remove the thorn before it festers, always a good idea.

[Retired_Member_001]

I say we either package them all plus one of our draft picks for a high draft pick, or we see if we can pull a trade for Vilma or Saun Rodgers.

To be honest I'm glad we are getting rid of them, they are all cancers to this team and they will drag us down if we end up keeping them. Travis Henry is a drug addict who's as clever as a drunk Paris Hilton, Javon Walker is more cry prone than Dick Vermeil and Ian Gold tackles as if he has no head. Javon Walker and Travis Henry never learn their lesson and they will cause chemistry issues no matter what team they are on.

[Scarface]

A cry baby, a druggie, and a bum. I'm sure the phone is ringing off the hook at Dove Valley.

Yep. We won't trade any of them but all will probably end up released.

[Scarface]

And once Marshall starts leading the team in catches and receiving yards, JW will start his "ME" act and then we have to deal with an in-season distraction. Rid yourself of the problem now and get rid of him. He is who he is, a ME guy. We don't have time to deal with that this up-coming year.

I agree. This team has a core of young talented players who are hungry to win. Lets get rid of the ME players and do this thing the right way!

[Watchthemiddle]

And once Marshall starts leading the team in catches and receiving yards, JW will start his "ME" act and then we have to deal with an in-season distraction. Rid yourself of the problem now and get rid of him. He is who he is, a ME guy. We don't have time to deal with that this up-coming year.

And if it wasn't Walker playing the "ME" act, then we could see it out of Marshall. Love the guy, but I feel he is going to be one of those because the boy has skillz. I hope not.

[Scarface]

And if it wasn't Walker playing the "ME" act, then we could see it out of Marshall. Love the guy, but I feel he is going to be one of those because the boy has skillz. I hope not.

That kind of worries me too but he's in Atlanta working out with Jay and Scheff. Bottom line is I think he wants to be a winner above all else.

[Bronco9798]

Yep. We won't trade any of them but all will probably end up released.

I think Henry will be here. Shanny will ask him to take a pay cut and he'll have no choice since Shanny backed him on the drug thing. Henry is like a pup to Shanny right now. He'll do whatever is asked of him. If he comes into camp healthy, Shanny will give him one last chance to prove himself.

[WARHORSE]

I still dont see where people are claiming Walker was so outstanding in 06.

He had 65 catches, a whoping 15 more then a crippled Rod Smith. He didnt help improve one of the worst offenses we have had in years. Wel maybe he helped abit, without out him our O would have been a little more terrible, if thats possible.

He was anything but a show stopper.

He re-injures the knee this past season, is gone for the majority of it, came back and couldnt get open, and cries almost instantly.

Not what I would want to be centering my WR crew. Remove the thorn before it festers, always a good idea.


Go back and watch the film. He was ALL of our offense.

[WARHORSE]

I think Henry will be here. Shanny will ask him to take a pay cut and he'll have no choice since Shanny backed him on the drug thing. Henry is like a pup to Shanny right now. He'll do whatever is asked of him. If he comes into camp healthy, Shanny will give him one last chance to prove himself.


Yep.

And if he can keep Mendenhall on the bench, he deserves to start.:D

[Watchthemiddle]

That kind of worries me too but he's in Atlanta working out with Jay and Scheff. Bottom line is I think he wants to be a winner above all else.

Thats good news.

And to whoever thought Walker didn't do much in 06, he was the only one doing much.

Him and Jay clicked quick when Jay got his shot at QB.

And he started off 07 the same way he ended in 06. In those early games, Walker was killing teams on the quick slant. I think it was the Buffalo game on the game winning drive that he had 3-4 catches...and many for first downs to keep the drive going.

WHen the man is healthy, he is very good. Problem is, right now he seems to need to get his head and body in the same place.

[HolyDiver]

We will be lucky to trade one of the three................But if we were to somehow trade all three, we could have one hell of a draft.

[broncosfanscott]

Thats good news.And to whoever thought Walker didn't do much in 06, he was the only one doing much. Him and Jay clicked quick when Jay got his shot at QB.And he started off 07 the same way he ended in 06.* In those early games, Walker was killing teams on the quick slant.* I think it was the Buffalo game on the game winning drive that he had 3-4 catches...and many for first downs to keep the drive going. When the man is healthy, he is very good. Problem is, right now he seems to need to get his head and body in the same place.

It's too bad because even though he will never be 100% healthy, being on the field will make Marshall that much more dangerous. I hope that JW will cool down so things can work out.

[mclark]

Maybe the Jets would want Henry, Walker and a pick for Vilma?

lol... I doubt anyone will want Henry.... Not with this draft class and Julius Jones and Michael Turner as free agents.

We are stuck with him guys, unless we cut him... and I doubt that... Denver better get Henry's agent on the phone and work out a new contract

Henry for Vilma straight across. Both are damaged products.

[Lonestar]

That kind of worries me too but he's in Atlanta working out with Jay and Scheff. Bottom line is I think he wants to be a winner above all else.

Then he will probably want to get out of cow town DEN..

[Stargazer]

I don't care if we ship all those turds off and only get fourth round value in return.

Get something.

Hell, just get rid of them.

Pretty much. This team is in the middle of rebuilding mode with an eye for a championship year two years from now. Dump them all. Who cares about the cap hit. Grab ANY picks if offered. In the NFL with wise decision making, it doesn't take that long to remake your team. Thank you Jay Cutler, otherwise I think Shanny would have bailed & not have rebuilt this potential new team.

[Watchthemiddle]

Henry for Vilma straight across. Both are damaged products.

DJ and Vilma on the same field again.

I would go for that.

[Stargazer]

DJ and Vilma on the same field again.

I would go for that.

I'm surprised Vilma hasn't been traded already. Why the Jets hold onto him is beyond me. He's leaving town when he gets the opportunity.

[Watchthemiddle]

I'm surprised Vilma hasn't been traded already. Why the Jets hold onto him is beyond me. He's leaving town when he gets the opportunity.

What is wrong with him? Is he injured, disgruntled...whats his deal?

[Simple Jaded]

Henry for Vilma straight across. Both are damaged products.


Don't be too hasty, if they'll take Gold too, by all means, let 'em have him......

[Stargazer]

What is wrong with him? Is he injured, disgruntled...whats his deal?

He's not a 34 LB. He's out of place. IMO, he's wrong for their system. And his production shows.

[Simple Jaded]

What is wrong with him? Is he injured, disgruntled...whats his deal?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/11/01/2007-11-01_jets_knew_of_jonathan_vilmas_knee_injury-2.html

Coming off a knee injury, and he may have a degenerative knee condition......

[Stargazer]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/11/01/2007-11-01_jets_knew_of_jonathan_vilmas_knee_injury-2.html

Coming off a knee injury, and he may have a degenerative knee condition......

Stick him in a 43 and he'll produce. That article is BS becaue if he was defective before entering the draft, how did he produce 173 tackles in the NFL? By luck? I think not. Though Vilma has had injury problems, his #'s have decreased since Mangini became the coach(34).

[Simple Jaded]

Stick him in a 43 and he'll produce. That article is BS becaue if he was defective before entering the draft, how did he produce 173 tackles in the NFL? By luck? I think not. Though Vilma has had injury problems, his #'s have decreased since Mangini became the coach(34).

I have no problem with bringing in Vilma, even if he does need microfracture......but the article is not BS, the dude has a bad knee.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B03EFD9133AF936A15757C0A9629C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

There are plenty more articles saying the same thing......

[dogfish]

Stick him in a 43 and he'll produce. That article is BS becaue if he was defective before entering the draft, how did he produce 173 tackles in the NFL? By luck? I think not. Though Vilma has had injury problems, his #'s have decreased since Mangini became the coach(34).

probably the same way courtney brown produced 153 tackles and X other stats in the NFL before his knee gave out on him-- obviously, more skill than luck. . . but it doesn't matter that vilma is talented, and it matters very little whether his knee was trashed before the draft (although, no offense, i'll take a doctor's opinion over the speculation of someone on a message board)-- what DOES matter is that his knee is trashed now. . . . he played seven games this year, then missed the last nine without any reported ligament damage (ACL, etc)-- clearly, something pretty serious is going on with him. . .


mark my words, this guy is done, or close to it. . . . linemen, who can be effective despite limited range and explosion, sometimes recover from microfractures to have solid careers, but it's rare with skill position players-- especially undersized LBs whose game is based on speed. . . winslow had a good year coming off microfracture, but he's already scheduled for more offseason surgery-- how much longer you think he can hold up?

i wouldn't trade a sack of beans for vilma at this point. . . . we've already got enough problems with big-dollar guys and injury problems, no need to willingly take on more. . . we need to get the ones we currently have off the books, not turn around and trade them for others. . . if vilma was healthy i'd take him in a heart beat, but after a doctor has publicly stated that he has a degenerative knee condition. . . . ? we desperately need help at LB, but a gimp isn't the guy to turn to, no matter how good he was several years ago. . . . pass. . . .

[champbronc2]

Well at least I will see something interesting by February's end.

I hope...

:rolleyes:

But that's cool.

Henry= Not huge impact on last season.
Walker= No impact last season.
Gold= Little impact last season.

[lex]

What about Henry & Gold to Detroit for Shaun Rogers? It seems Detroit will be losing Lehman and Bailey...and theyre also wanting a RB from what Ive been seeing.

[Krugan]

Go back and watch the film. He was ALL of our offense.

And yet he still wasnt head and shoulders above a guy who should have had his hip replaced a year earlier.

He was 2nd fiddle in Green Bay and couldnt stand it, came here got a freebie with a broken Rod, only produced mediocre numbers on a team with minimal options(yea yea double teamed im sure).

He isnt the superstar people want to believe he is. The guy has talent but not to level it is percieved by many. Of course this is just my opinion.

I, at one point, gave him a minor pass due to our extremely poor offense that year. That being said, I would just as soon see him go elsewhere and cry about being a #2, being that should be where he is.

Its just my opinion of the guy, repeat behavior seems to be an issue here, and that alone is enough for me.

[shank]

is anyone at all surprised that there is not mention of offers or shopping of foxworth?

[Skinny]

is anyone at all surprised that there is not mention of offers or shopping of foxworth?Mikey and Slo love his versatility. Foxy having experiance playing both CB and Safety is a great asset to the defense in case of injuries in either area ... it does'nt suprise me much ...

[Lonestar]

Mikey and Slo love his versatility. Foxy having experiance playing both CB and Safety is a great asset to the defense in case of injuries in either area ... it does'nt suprise me much ...


Could also mean that other teams are not interested.. at all..

He is marginal as a #3 cb and a semi diaster as Safety..IMO

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Could also mean that other teams are not interested.. at all..

He is marginal as a #3 cb and a semi diaster as Safety..IMO

No JR, this isn't what it means. This is what you want it to mean.

[topscribe]

No JR, this isn't what it means. This is what you want it to mean.

JR said could also mean . . .

Guess you missed that?

-----

[Lonestar]

JR said could also mean . . .

Guess you missed that?

-----


Funny about reading being fundamental..

[Skinny]

Could also mean that other teams are not interested.. at all..

He is marginal as a #3 cb and a semi diaster as Safety..IMORumor has it New Orleans is interested in him, depending on what Mikey & Co. are asking for him will of course have alot to do with just how far that goes ... their in need of a CB.

I like Foxys athletic ability as a CB just not as a Safety, and he seems to flourish and do quite well as a nickel back and when he's playing zone and able to peek in the backfeild and read the QB ...

[topscribe]

Rumor has it New Orleans is interested in him, depending on what Mikey & Co. are asking for him will of course have alot to do with just how far that goes ... their in need of a CB.

I like Foxys athletic ability as a CB just not as a Safety, and he seems to flourish and do quite well as a nickel back and when he's playing zone and able to peek in the backfeild and read the QB ...

Foxy is a good CB in my opinion. Not great, but good.

I hope, if they trade him, that they get a good value in return.

Could surely use a third round pick, for instance . . .

-----

[Skinny]

Ya, a 3rd would do well for us ...

[Lonestar]

Rumor has it New Orleans is interested in him, depending on what Mikey & Co. are asking for him will of course have alot to do with just how far that goes ... their in need of a CB.

I like Foxys athletic ability as a CB just not as a Safety, and he seems to flourish and do quite well as a nickel back and when he's playing zone and able to peek in the backfeild and read the QB ...


Foxy is a good CB in my opinion. Not great, but good.

I hope, if they trade him, that they get a good value in return.

Could surely use a third round pick, for instance . . .

-----

Well I have never understood the love some have shown him..

He was marginal IMO usually beaten like a cheap drum as a nickle I can remember him almost making Manning a super ALL PRO with all the passes he allowed.

Maybe he will be better if he has a decent DL to put some pressure on the QB..

But I'd take a ham sandwich and a diet root beer for him if they offer..

If someone is dumb enough to give up more.. start talking to them about taking henry, and walker also.. Maybe bundle them up for a low ball #3..

[topscribe]

Well I have never understood the love some have shown him..

He was marginal IMO usually beaten like a cheap drum as a nickle I can remember him almost making Manning a super ALL PRO with all the passes he allowed.

Maybe he will be better if he has a decent DL to put some pressure on the QB..

But I'd take a ham sandwich and a diet root beer for him if they offer..

If someone is dumb enough to give up more.. start talking to them about taking henry, and walker also.. Maybe bundle them up for a low ball #3..

Ding! :nod:

-----

[Lonestar]

Ding! :nod:

-----

I'm not holding my breath until foxworthless becomes a pro bowler..

[topscribe]

I'm not holding my breath until foxworthless becomes a pro bowler..

Won't happen if he stays in the AFC, with Champ, Bly, Cromartie, etc., etc.

But I believe a team with a good pass rush would find Foxy a good value for a #3.

IMHO.

-----

[Lonestar]

Won't happen if he stays in the AFC, with Champ, Bly, Comarte, etc., etc.

But I believe a team with a good pass rush would find Foxy a good value for a #3.

IMHO.

-----

I'll take anything to get him out of DEN so all of these guys with a a man crush on him will shut up..

[topscribe]

I'll take anything to get him out of DEN so all of these guys with a a man crush on him will shut up..

Well, I don't know what will be available in the 3rd (which is why I rely on the
likes of posters such as Boss), but methinks maybe getting one in that round
for Foxy might ultimately be an exchange for a competent DT?

Or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about . . .

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I'll take anything to get him out of DEN so all of these guys with a a man crush on him will shut up..

Who has a man crush on him? I don't think anybody does. I think people realize he has some versatility and value to the team; they like his character and some other things. He's not nearly as bad as you make him out to be.

[RiversSucks]

Sometimes fans become emotionally attached to a certain player, I think that's the case with the Foxworth fans. Foxworth did lots of good stuff off the field with the darrent williams center and he has his own blog which creates more fans for him. But his fans fail to see how weak his performance on the field is. This past year he criticized the D-Line and their poor performance and he said it to the media. I mean, you don't say that stuff to the media, what good is it going to do? And he also has been saying that he could be a starting corner for any other team in the league, I see let him go and see if he can.

[topscribe]

Sometimes fans become emotionally attached to a certain player, I think that's the case with the Foxworth fans. Foxworth did lots of good stuff off the field with the darrent williams center and he has his own blog which creates more fans for him. But his fans fail to see how weak his performance on the field is. This past year he criticized the D-Line and their poor performance and he said it to the media. I mean, you don't say that stuff to the media, what good is it going to do? And he also has been saying that he could be a starting corner for any other team in the league, I see let him go and see if he can.

You might have noticed that Champ also pointed to the D-line . . .

-----

[Italianmobstr7]

You might have noticed that Champ also pointed to the D-line . . .

-----

And Lynch....

[lex]

I thought this thread was about Henry?

[Lonestar]

I thought this thread was about Henry?


Sometimes after a while thread go stale veers of to other areas which this one seems to have done..

If you wish to post something about henry please feel free to do so..

[Lonestar]

And Lynch....

I didn't see any comments about Champ going after John..Could you elaborate?

[lex]

Sometimes after a while thread go stale veers of to other areas which this one seems to have done..

If you wish to post something about henry please feel free to do so..

post 68. Are you calling my posts stale because only two posts later someone brought up Foxworth? I think you are calling my posts stale and I dont appreciate you taking a shot at me like that. Thats not nice.

[RiversSucks]

You might have noticed that Champ also pointed to the D-line . . .

-----

Bailey said we needed consistency up front.

Lynch said that the young guys up front need to develop.

Foxworth said the D-line has some holes, which is true, but why say it to the media? and that we need better personnel.

It's not about what he says, it's about how and why he says it to the media.

[topscribe]

I didn't see any comments about Champ going after John..Could you elaborate?

I think he meant Lynch alluded to the D-line as well as Champ and Foxy.

Champ has actually asked Lynch not to retire.

-----

[Lonestar]

Sometimes fans become emotionally attached to a certain player, I think that's the case with the Foxworth fans. Foxworth did lots of good stuff off the field with the darrent williams center and he has his own blog which creates more fans for him. But his fans fail to see how weak his performance on the field is. This past year he criticized the D-Line and their poor performance and he said it to the media. I mean, you don't say that stuff to the media, what good is it going to do? And he also has been saying that he could be a starting corner for any other team in the league, I see let him go and see if he can.


I understand he is a great guy in the community and I heard something about him being man of the year.. But that does not make up for on field play. If he played half as well as champ on any level and was man of the year then good for him resign him..

But when drafted he was expected to be more than a ST or nickle back.. They had huge expectations for him and Paymah. They were surprised that darrent whom was scheduled for KR duties took the spot away from them and the tall one..

[topscribe]

Bailey said we needed consistency up front.

Lynch said that the young guys up front need to develop.

Foxworth said the D-line has some holes, which is true, but why say it to the media? and that we need better personnel.

It's not about what he says, it's about how and why he says it to the media.

He called it as he saw it.

I'm fine with that . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Bailey said we needed consistency up front.

Lynch said that the young guys up front need to develop.

Foxworth said the D-line has some holes, which is true, but why say it to the media? and that we need better personnel.

It's not about what he says, it's about how and why he says it to the media.


I'd guess that Champ and John have creds and foxworthless does not..

Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt..

[mclark]

Trade Henry for Vilma; but keep Javon if he's willing to re-negotiate.

[lex]

Trade Henry for Vilma; but keep Javon if he's willing to re-negotiate.

Vilma is damaged goods. Do you really see Javon being willing to renegotiate unless its to affect a trade?

[mclark]

Vilma is damaged goods. Do you really see Javon being willing to renegotiate unless its to affect a trade?

Give Vilma a physical, see if he's really damaged.

I'm not sure about Javon. We read one thing, then another. I think we'd be very powerful with Marshall and Walker both catching footballs. Of course, to give Cutler the time to do this, we need to improve our offensive line, ASAP.

If Javon only cares about Javon, send him packing and get a draft choice for him (unload his salary).

[Tned]

post 68. Are you calling my posts stale because only two posts later someone brought up Foxworth? I think you are calling my posts stale and I dont appreciate you taking a shot at me like that. Thats not nice.

Lex. Give it a rest.

If you want to pick fights with mods, go do it on the Mane.

LET'S BE CLEAR, GIVE IT A REST. NOW.

[lex]

Lex. Give it a rest.

If you want to pick fights with mods, go do it on the Mane.

LET'S BE CLEAR, GIVE IT A REST. NOW.


I wasnt really trying to pick a fight. I was genuinely interested in the discussion of Henry and my subsequent post(s) to the one youre citing validates that.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Vilma may be damaged goods...but so are our 3 on the trade block. I'd gladly give Vilma a chance to come in and show he's still the reral deal if it helped us get rid of one of our problem children.

[Tned]

I wasnt really trying to pick a fight. I was genuinely interested in the discussion of Henry and my subsequent post(s) to the one youre citing validates that.

Lex, READ MY FINGERS:

GIVE IT A REST.

I'm sick of dealing with reported posts and PMs about your feuds with the mods.

As I have told you, I think you bring something to the football talk, so I hope you reign in your feud with some of the mods, but if you continue, you will lose.

So, once again.

GIVE IT A REST. Let this go, or you are going to force my hand.

[lex]

Vilma may be damaged goods...but so are our 3 on the trade block. I'd gladly give Vilma a chance to come in and show he's still the reral deal if it helped us get rid of one of our problem children.

Yeah, I dont know what to believe on Vilma. Id rather target Rogers though.

[Lonestar]

post 68. Are you calling my posts stale because only two posts later someone brought up Foxworth? I think you are calling my posts stale and I dont appreciate you taking a shot at me like that. Thats not nice.


Not at all sometimes threads naturally end and then start veer all over the place.

We are here to stop attacks, baiting and other things listed in the COC. NOT to keep every old thread completely on topic..

If you feel you have something to add about the thread topic by all means post it.. Perhaps someone will indeed respond to it..

[Npba900]

Give Vilma a physical, see if he's really damaged.

I'm not sure about Javon. We read one thing, then another. I think we'd be very powerful with Marshall and Walker both catching footballs. Of course, to give Cutler the time to do this, we need to improve our offensive line, ASAP.

If Javon only cares about Javon, send him packing and get a draft choice for him (unload his salary).

Another way to give Culter time to complete passes if improving the O line can't get done in 2008, would be to draft power rushing athletic Jon Stewart with our 12th pick, and selecting on of the behemouth stud lead blocking FB's like Caulcrick, Cox, or Schmitt.

A vastly upgraded power running game to go along with our zone blocking scheme will allow Cutler to remain up right and healthy as well as time to complete passes b/c now Denver has a FB who can take on rushing DE's or blitzing Line Backers. Oppossing teams won't be able to rush Cutler with reckless abandon w/o getting burned by the power running of Stewart or one of our behemouth FB's with size and power of Caulcrick, Cox, or Schmitt.

[Lonestar]

Another way to give Culter time to complete passes if improving the O line can't get done in 2008, would be to draft power rushing athletic Jon Stewart with our 12th pick, and selecting on of the behemouth stud lead blocking FB's like Caulcrick, Cox, or Schmitt.

A vastly upgraded power running game to go along with our zone blocking scheme will allow Cutler to remain up right and healthy as well as time to complete passes b/c now Denver has a FB who can take on rushing DE's or blitzing Line Backers. Oppossing teams won't be able to rush Cutler with reckless abandon w/o getting burned by the power running of Stewart or one of our behemouth FB's with size and power of Caulcrick, Cox, or Schmitt.

I do not share your enthusiasms with this. Our running game is OK now our biggest problem with running game is short yardage both 3 and short and inside the 5 .. Getting bigger Running back will not cure this issue getting quality and hopefully larger OLINE guys will..

Combine the three together and then we will be feared again. But I do not see that over the next couple of years way to many other by-products of having almost a decade of failed day one picks.. That need fixing first..

[topscribe]

I do not share your enthusiasms with this. Our running game is OK now our biggest problem with running game is short yardage both 3 and short and inside the 5 .. Getting bigger Running back will not cure this issue getting quality and hopefully larger OLINE guys will..

Combine the three together and then we will be feared again. But I do not see that over the next couple of years way to many other by-products of having almost a decade of failed day one picks.. That need fixing first..

I think he was referring to a blocking FB. I would like to see an authentic
blocking FB on the roster. That may not be all the Broncos need, but I believe
one would indeed make a difference in the short yardage situations.

-----

[dogfish]

I do not share your enthusiasms with this. Our running game is OK now our biggest problem with running game is short yardage both 3 and short and inside the 5 .. Getting bigger Running back will not cure this issue getting quality and hopefully larger OLINE guys will..

Combine the three together and then we will be feared again. But I do not see that over the next couple of years way to many other by-products of having almost a decade of failed day one picks.. That need fixing first..


JR, you know what a big proponent of fixing the O-line i am, but i don't think you should discount the value of a real top-notch RB either. . . . just for kicks, watch this highlight reel and pay attention to some of the goal line runs-- they're most definitely not all O-line. . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSKFOfc04Q




I think he was referring to a blocking FB. I would like to see an authentic
blocking FB on the roster. That may not be all the Broncos need, but I believe
one would indeed make a difference in the short yardage situations.

-----



absolutely! a head-knocking FB (owen schmitt!) would be a big help in short yardage situations. . .

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Also, our offensive line's woes are more from a pass blocking standpoint - we could do better in the run; but throw Stewart in there and baBANG.

[Lonestar]

I think he was referring to a blocking FB. I would like to see an authentic
blocking FB on the roster. That may not be all the Broncos need, but I believe
one would indeed make a difference in the short yardage situations.

-----


Perhaps some but not consistently like a Upgrade on the OLINE would do..

While overall our OLINES have been pretty good and last year was an aberration with all the injuries the fact of the matter is we have been in decline since the big dogs left.. Good, but not great and frankly TOP that is not good enough any longer..

With more and more 3-4 defenses and more ZBS teams in the mix defenses see them more than once a year or within our division, SAN and LC see them at least 4 times a year.. something to make an honest attempt at finding a way to stop it..

When we would play KC before we all pretty much knew that we would win in DEN and lose in KC,Same in OAK and SAN..

Now KC and SAN have to worry about 2 more games on the schedule against OAK going against the ZBS.. DC are paying more attention to it.. Thus more folks are finding ways to stop us..

[topscribe]

Perhaps some but not consistently like a Upgrade on the OLINE would do..

While overall our OLINES have been pretty good and last year was an aberration with all the injuries the fact of the matter is we have been in decline since the big dogs left.. Good, but not great and frankly TOP that is not good enough any longer..

With more and more 3-4 defenses and more ZBS teams in the mix defenses see them more than once a year or within our division, SAN and LC see them at least 4 times a year.. something to make an honest attempt at finding a way to stop it..

When we would play KC before we all pretty much knew that we would win in DEN and lose in KC,Same in OAK and SAN..

Now KC and SAN have to worry about 2 more games on the schedule against OAK going against the ZBS.. DC are paying more attention to it.. Thus more folks are finding ways to stop us..

Well, we have Nasty Nails coming back, along with Hamilton, I understand.
Plus I think Kuper is a real prospect. Holland has been a bit too soft in the
running game for his size, but he's a good pass blocker, and maybe the
presence of Nalen will help him use his 322 lbs. to advantage. I would feel
more comfortable to see an OT or two, though . . . an experienced vet, not
one who will have to play three years before Cutler has to stop running for
his life.

But, personally, I would still like to see Henry stay and get a stud FB for him.

-----

[Lonestar]

JR, you know what a big proponent of fixing the O-line i am, but i don't think you should discount the value of a real top-notch RB either. . . . just for kicks, watch this highlight reel and pay attention to some of the goal line runs-- they're most definitely not all O-line. . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSKFOfc04Q







absolutely! a head-knocking FB (owen schmitt!) would be a big help in short yardage situations. . .


NO doubt he would be an upgrade over what we have, IF he can translate running against PAC-10 defenses into running the same way in the pros'.

IMO we get more bang for the buck getting a top tier OT or TWO over a RB running behind our present gaggle of line guys..

A top tier OT can play for 10-15 years most RBs do not make it past year 4..

IMO way more upside getting one or two of the top OT and utilizing existing RBs.

If mikey can work some magic and come up with both I have no issues with it.. But lets not forget we have DT, LB, and Safety issues that have to be fixed also.. We all saw what a great DL does to NE's great OLINE..

[dogfish]

NO doubt he would be an upgrade over what we have, IF he can translate running against PAC-10 defenses into running the same way in the pros'.

IMO we get more bang for the buck getting a top tier OT or TWO over a RB running behind our present gaggle of line guys..

A top tier OT can play for 10-15 years most RBs do not make it past year 4..

IMO way more upside getting one or two of the top OT and utilizing existing RBs.

If mikey can work some magic and come up with both I have no issues with it.. But lets not forget we have DT, LB, and Safety issues that have to be fixed also.. We all saw what a great DL does to NE's great OLINE..


i'm just keping my fingers crossed and praying that we add a legitimate DT through free agency or trade-- bring in a corey williams, kris jenkins or shaun rogers, and i think our young guys on the DL will flourish. . . that would allow us to spend our two 1st day picks to upgrade OT, and either LB or RB. . . there are also at least half a dozen veteran safeties available this year who could upgrade the position, most likely without breaking the bank. . .

[Lonestar]

i'm just keping my fingers crossed and praying that we add a legitimate DT through free agency or trade-- bring in a corey williams, kris jenkins or shaun rogers, and i think our young guys on the DL will flourish. . . that would allow us to spend our two 1st day picks to upgrade OT, and either LB or RB. . . there are also at least half a dozen veteran safeties available this year who could upgrade the position, most likely without breaking the bank. . .

Now this I could live with..

Everyone is so hyped up about getting the best RB in college, it is not gonna happen. Mikey will not waste the pick that way when he has all of the other holes to fill.

If he can pick up at least one stud OLT that can come in and start day one, then we can get second round help at LB, DT, or maybe if we are lucky at Safety..


We all see in the big games you win and lose at the LOS and frankly we have been on the short end of the stick for many years now..

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Five bucks that Hamilton doesn't play football again.

[Slick]

Five bucks that Hamilton doesn't play football again.

It's extremely risky to count on this guy reverting to his old form.

Dan Morgan ring a bell? He simply can't stay on the field.

I'll see your 5 and raise you a 20.

[dogfish]

It's extremely risky to count on this guy reverting to his old form.

Dan Morgan ring a bell? He simply can't stay on the field.

I'll see your 5 and raise you a 20.

it's a bad bet-- either way you lose. . . . if hamilton doesn't play again we lose a solid player-- if he does play again you lose twenty bucks. . . .



:laugh:




but yea, unfortunately, i have serious concersn about his health going forward. . . and even if he is healthy, he didn't play all that well in '06 anyways-- is he really going to better with a year off and the guys on the other side of the line gaining a few more pounds on him every year? even if he comes back, i bet kuper beats him out in camp. . . .

[topscribe]

it's a bad bet-- either way you lose. . . . if hamilton doesn't play again we lose a solid player-- if he does play again you lose twenty bucks. . . .



:laugh:




but yea, unfortunately, i have serious concersn about his health going forward. . . and even if he is healthy, he didn't play all that well in '06 anyways-- is he really going to better with a year off and the guys on the other side of the line gaining a few more pounds on him every year? even if he comes back, i bet kuper beats him out in camp. . . .

True on Kuper.

I was thinking of depth, anyway, regarding Hamilton, even if he can play effectively.

-----

[Slick]

it's a bad bet-- either way you lose. . . . if hamilton doesn't play again we lose a solid player-- if he does play again you lose twenty bucks. . . .



:laugh:




but yea, unfortunately, i have serious concersn about his health going forward. . . and even if he is healthy, he didn't play all that well in '06 anyways-- is he really going to better with a year off and the guys on the other side of the line gaining a few more pounds on him every year? even if he comes back, i bet kuper beats him out in camp. . . .
hopefully I'd lose the 20 bucks, plus I'm payin in pesos so I'll try to trick someone about the exchange rate.

I agree. we'll see Kuper or Myers or both playing G if Nalen can hang in there for 1 more year.

[tubby]

Travis Henry rules. 2007 was a bad year. If he willing to take a paycut, keep him, and then give him the ball.... a lot.

Big Hoss :salute:

[Requiem / The Dagda]

The only thing Henry is good at is getting people pregnant.

[broncosfanscott]

Travis Henry rules. 2007 was a bad year. If he willing to take a paycut, keep him, and then give him the ball.... a lot.

Big Hoss :salute:

I just hope he can stay healthy for the whole season or at least a majority of it because he can definatly help with our short yardage problem.

Stay focused Henry, stay focused.

[topscribe]

I just hope he can stay healthy for the whole season or at least a majority of it because he can definatly help with our short yardage problem.

Stay focused Henry, stay focused.

Henry came to the Broncos with a reputation as a powerful runner, a good
blocker, and a decent receiver out of the backfield. He didn't disappoint them
in any of that. Moreover, he showed a terrific stiff arm. The only problem was,
he was injured.

Just like Adrian Peterson was. Just like Larry Johnson was.

Henry has already professed a new gratitude and determination to be better
than ever. If he is willing to restructure, and he comes back healthy, the
Broncos ought to do everything they can to keep him. As Shanny himself
said, Henry is the same guy who led the NFL in rushing the first five games
last year.

-----

[dogfish]

Henry came to the Broncos with a reputation as a powerful runner, a good
blocker, and a decent receiver out of the backfield. He didn't disappoint them
in any of that. Moreover, he showed a terrific stiff arm. The only problem was,
he was injured.

Just like Adrian Peterson was. Just like Larry Johnson was.

Henry has already professed a new gratitude and determination to be better
than ever. If he is willing to restructure, and he comes back healthy, the
Broncos ought to do everything they can to keep him. As Shanny himself
said, Henry is the same guy who lead the NFL in rushing the first five games
last year.

-----



henry also came to denver with a reputation for being injury prone, and he didn't disappoint in that area either. . . didn't tatum bell also have a season where he lead the league in rushing for the first four or five games?


:elefant:






it's not how you start, it's how you finish-- and henry has finished too many seasons limping around to be relied on. . . . that doesn't mean that i think he can't rebound with a good year, because he can, but he's not exactly a reliable option. . .

[topscribe]

henry also came to denver with a reputation for being injury prone, and he didn't disappoint in that area either. . . didn't tatum bell also have a season where he lead the league in rushing for the first four or five games?


:elefant:






it's not how you start, it's how you finish-- and henry has finished too many seasons limping around to be relied on. . . . that doesn't mean that i think he can't rebound with a good year, because he can, but he's not exactly a reliable option. . .

I do not believe there is a person in football who would disagree that there
is a monstrous difference between Tater and Travis Henry.

And you may be right about the injury issue, but more knowledgeable
football people than you or I thought he was worth a chance. I just can't
see sacrificing any opportunities to fortify the trenches, just so the Broncos
can perhaps throw the baby out with the bathwater in the backfield.

-----

[gobroncsnv]

Maybe our team needs to focus more on keeping the ballcarrier ALIVE at least until they can get to the line of scrimmage. Our biggest point of concern should be the front line. A lot of folks would look at a comment like this as "arrogance" on Shanny's part for just trying to find a "system" back instead of a stud. But I've said it before, ANY team's "skill" players will suck, on either side of the ball, if you can't hold your own on the line of scrimmage. Freak injuries have happened to the absolute best of them, but you live a little bit longer in this league if you can keep from getting gang-tackled by the whole dline because there wasn't a hole to run through. Henry and Young could make a great combo if we could take care of business up-front.

[Dreadnought]

Well, I guess the good news is that if Henry is around next year Selivin Young has proven he can and should see a good number of carries. If Henry is back, and we're seeing him in the top 5 rushers in the early part of the season, we are on the wrong track, because that means Henry is getting too many carries. Young looked great at times, but sould not be seeing more than 10-12 carries a game - add in 12-15 for Henry and a few more for Andre Hall and the FB's and we have the makings of a very good ground game if we get some better work from the o-line. That would reduce wear on our RB's and ideally keep them on the active roster all season long.

OTOH, if Dan Snyder wants to make a stupid offer for Henry, well, adios!

[dogfish]

I do not believe there is a person in football who would disagree that there
is a monstrous difference between Tater and Travis Henry.

And you may be right about the injury issue, but more knowledgeable
football people than you or I thought he was worth a chance. I just can't
see sacrificing any opportunities to fortify the trenches, just so the Broncos
can perhaps throw the baby out with the bathwater in the backfield.

-----


i've been one of the biggest proponents of rebuilding both of the lines over the years, but there's no law that we can't have good linemen AND a top notch RB. . . .

[topscribe]

i've been one of the biggest proponents of rebuilding both of the lines over the years, but there's no law that we can't have good linemen AND a top notch RB. . . .

I know you have, Dog, and you may be right in all this.

But the Broncos saw "top notch" in Henry. I'm not against upgrading in any
position, of course. And I am indeed impressed especially from what I have
seen of Stewart. I'm just saying the trenches should take priority if there is a
conflict.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

henry also came to denver with a reputation for being injury prone, and he didn't disappoint in that area either. . . didn't tatum bell also have a season where he lead the league in rushing for the first four or five games?


:elefant:






it's not how you start, it's how you finish-- and henry has finished too many seasons limping around to be relied on. . . . that doesn't mean that i think he can't rebound with a good year, because he can, but he's not exactly a reliable option. . .

QFT. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, poops like a duck; then it's a duck.

The Broncos thought (as always) that Henry's risk (top not cheef and keefer, and injury prone -- might have met Nate Jackson somewhere along the line) might have been worth the reward.

It doesn't matter how he started. You're dead on. It's how you finish; and in the race that is football - Henry didn't even make it across the line.

Cut this scrub and get a stud.

[mclark]

henry also came to denver with a reputation for being injury prone, and he didn't disappoint in that area either. . . didn't tatum bell also have a season where he lead the league in rushing for the first four or five games?


Being injury-prone, being a pot-head, and not knowing how to use a condom...

If we keep him, I'll root for him. I'd rather we dump him and start fresh with someone who doesn't have a pot-affection. But we may not be able to afford to dump him.

[topscribe]

JR, you know what a big proponent of fixing the O-line i am, but i don't think you should discount the value of a real top-notch RB either. . . . just for kicks, watch this highlight reel and pay attention to some of the goal line runs-- they're most definitely not all O-line. . . .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSKFOfc04Q



A military tank who reportedly runs a 4.4.

I could live with that . . . :coffee:

-----

[Lonestar]

Well, I guess the good news is that if Henry is around next year Selivin Young has proven he can and should see a good number of carries. If Henry is back, and we're seeing him in the top 5 rushers in the early part of the season, we are on the wrong track, because that means Henry is getting too many carries. Young looked great at times, but sould not be seeing more than 10-12 carries a game - add in 12-15 for Henry and a few more for Andre Hall and the FB's and we have the makings of a very good ground game if we get some better work from the o-line. That would reduce wear on our RB's and ideally keep them on the active roster all season long.

OTOH, if Dan Snyder wants to make a stupid offer for Henry, well, adios!

Actually this makes a lot of sense, get the OLINE fixed limit the carries for all and beat them to death with a a fresh back every quarter..

Frankly even TD would have issues trying to run behind this OLINE as it was the past couple of years..

You have to be able to get to the second level, that means past the DL and LOS to have a chance to break one.. When your getting hit at or before the LOS and dragging someone from there that is a blocking issue..

[dogfish]

A military tank who reportedly runs a 4.4.

I could live with that . . . :coffee:

-----

BEAST!


one of the reasons that i've come around to the idea of drafting stewart is that-- especially if clady is gone by 12-- he quite simply looks like a better prospect than any of the OTs, DTs or LBs who will be available there. . . at least IMO. . . even if we can get a solid year or two out of henry, RB is clearly going to be a need sooner rather than later-- why not fill it with one of the most balanced prospects to come around in quite some time?

good teams balance need vs. the quality of the prospect when drafting, while bad teams reach to fill immediate holes. . . to me, THAT is the definition of DAFTING, as JR would put it-- it's also one of the big reasons you end up with guys like foster, pierce and lilly. . . obviously it's hard to discuss the draft intelligently before we know what direction the team will take in free agency, but it looks like we should know what's going to happen with henry sooner rather than later. . .

[topscribe]

BEAST!


one of the reasons that i've come around to the idea of drafting stewart is that-- especially if clady is gone by 12-- he quite simply looks like a better prospect than any of the OTs, DTs or LBs who will be available there. . . at least IMO. . . even if we can get a solid year or two out of henry, RB is clearly going to be a need sooner rather than later-- why not fill it with one of the most balanced prospects to come around in quite some time?

good teams balance need vs. the quality of the prospect when drafting, while bad teams reach to fill immediate holes. . . to me, THAT is the definition of DAFTING, as JR would put it-- it's also one of the big reasons you end up with guys like foster, pierce and lilly. . . obviously it's hard to discuss the draft intelligently before we know what direction the team will take in free agency, but it looks like we should know what's going to happen with henry sooner rather than later. . .

The only thing is, Stewart is apparently projected as 15-22, which would
appear a mild reach. But I suppose that's guesswork, too . . .

-----

[dogfish]

The only thing is, Stewart is apparently projected as 15-22, which would
appear a mild reach. But I suppose that's guesswork, too . . .

-----

3 spots is no big deal-- those are arbitrary numbers anyways. . . it beats taking a DT like kentwan balmer or an OT like cherilus, who are both projected as late 1st round picks. . . and i simply feel that stewart is a more complete player with higher upside than dan connor or keith rivers. . .


EDIT: and of course, those projections may well change after the combine, team interviews, pro day workouts, etc etc. . . .

[mclark]

The only thing is, Stewart is apparently projected as 15-22, which would
appear a mild reach. But I suppose that's guesswork, too . . .

-----

We know things will change after the Combine. And we also know that some people fall during draft day, and some rise. Did everyone have Justin Harrell going in the top-17 last year?

I'd take Stewart at 12 IF we address OT and DL or MLB in free agency. A reach isn't really a reach unless the guy fails. And there's no guarantee that anyone drafted in the first round won't fail. We KNOW that some will fail.

A 3-7 spot reach is one thing; a full-round reach (like Foster, Tatum Bell, etc) are the ones that hurt. Or the 4 round reach, like Maurice Clarett.

[topscribe]

We know things will change after the Combine. And we also know that some people fall during draft day, and some rise. Did anyone have Justin Harrell going in the top-20 last year?

I'd take Stewart at 12 IF we address OT and DL or MLB in free agency. A reach isn't really a reach unless the guy fails. And there's no guarantee that anyone drafter in the first round won't fail. We KNOW that some will fail.

A 3-7 spot reach is one thing; a full-round reach (like Foster, Tatum Bell, etc) are the ones that hurt. Or the 4 round reach, like Maurice Clarett.

Ohhh, you had to bring up those memories . . . :frown:

-----

[G_Money]

Stewart may be a more complete player than Connor or Cherilus, are you better off going with the best player or the best combination of players?

The age-old draft question.

If I can get a RB that can do 95% of what Stewart would do in the offense in a later round, but I can only get a LB that would do 85% of what Connor would do (or might not start at all) then am I better off going with (let's say) a Connor/Rice or a Stewart/Gooden tandem set for my first day picks?

It all depends on who that second guy is. I think Tashard Choice is a 1500 yard back in this offense. I think Wheeler is a prime talent at LB who might be there in the 2nd (though I'm starting to doubt it). But we might miss out on Wheeler, so is someone like Beau Bell good enough in the 2nd to offset the loss of whichever LB we wanted at #12? How about at OT or S?

I don't mind a Stewart/Mendenhall pick at #12 (or if we move back a few spots and he's still there, that's okay too).

But we need more than one starter from this draft. In baseball, you use a sliding scale in determining value based on difficulty to replace. If you have A-Rod hitting 35 HRs from the SS position, that's impossible production to replace from that position, which is one reason he got $25 mil a season from Texas.

If you're getting 35 HRs from LF, OTOH, there are a few more guys who can do that. The combination of glove, position and bat is the key.

If you put this draft on a sliding scale, the LBs are not quite as cream-of-the-crop as they were when Laurinaitis and Maualuga were in it. They're still a quality position, but not nearly as dominating with two potential top-10 picks removed from the board.

Safety has some interesting players, but none really stands out from the pack and after the top 3-4 you're getting into projects.

OTs is a great class for the position, considering in most classes there might be 1-2 quality LTs and the rest are RTs or guards. This time there are several good-to-great LT prospects and some great RT ones too - but most will be gone after round one with the incredible need for the position.

And then there's the RBs. IMO there's at least one Pro-Bowler who will be drafted in rounds 3-4, probably more. The depth at RB in this class is unbelievable. With the right system and usage there are a dozen quality RBs who could help their teams or become stars.

Mendenhall and Stewart are as close to locks at RB as you get. Barring injury, they should be dominant backs for at least a half-dozen years.

So you can either lock down the position with one of those players, or gamble more on the position in a later round but fill other needs first which almost certainly will not be filled by players in rounds 3-4.

With the depth at RB I have trouble pulling the trigger on a 1st round back. Choice, Forte and Rice are all backs that I believe will be quality backs in the NFL and available in rounds 2-4.

All would also make mincemeat out of opponents running in this system (a system that doesn't fit Charles quite as well).

So for me it all depends on who else is available at that #12 slot, and if we can trade down or not. If we can't trade back to get another pick and drop to the late teens instead of #12, and we don't like the money we're paying for the quality of non-RB at #12, then draft Mendenhall or Stewart. Go for the home-run hitter and then try to add the defense and blocking around him.

But it's not a no-brainer.

~G

[mclark]

Stewart may be a more complete player than Connor or Cherilus, are you better off going with the best player or the best combination of players?

The age-old draft question.

If I can get a RB that can do 95% of what Stewart would do in the offense in a later round, but I can only get a LB that would do 85% of what Connor would do (or might not start at all) then am I better off going with (let's say) a Connor/Rice or a Stewart/Gooden tandem set for my first day picks?

It all depends on who that second guy is. I think Tashard Choice is a 1500 yard back in this offense. I think Wheeler is a prime talent at LB who might be there in the 2nd (though I'm starting to doubt it). But we might miss out on Wheeler, so is someone like Beau Bell good enough in the 2nd to offset the loss of whichever LB we wanted at #12? How about at OT or S?

I don't mind a Stewart/Mendenhall pick at #12 (or if we move back a few spots and he's still there, that's okay too).

But we need more than one starter from this draft. In baseball, you use a sliding scale in determining value based on difficulty to replace. If you have A-Rod hitting 35 HRs from the SS position, that's impossible production to replace from that position, which is one reason he got $25 mil a season from Texas.

If you're getting 35 HRs from LF, OTOH, there are a few more guys who can do that. The combination of glove, position and bat is the key.

If you put this draft on a sliding scale, the LBs are not quite as cream-of-the-crop as they were when Laurinaitis and Maualuga were in it. They're still a quality position, but not nearly as dominating with two potential top-10 picks removed from the board.

Safety has some interesting players, but none really stands out from the pack and after the top 3-4 you're getting into projects.

OTs is a great class for the position, considering in most classes there might be 1-2 quality LTs and the rest are RTs or guards. This time there are several good-to-great LT prospects and some great RT ones too - but most will be gone after round one with the incredible need for the position.

And then there's the RBs. IMO there's at least one Pro-Bowler who will be drafted in rounds 3-4, probably more. The depth at RB in this class is unbelievable. With the right system and usage there are a dozen quality RBs who could help their teams or become stars.

Mendenhall and Stewart are as close to locks at RB as you get. Barring injury, they should be dominant backs for at least a half-dozen years.

So you can either lock down the position with one of those players, or gamble more on the position in a later round but fill other needs first which almost certainly will not be filled by players in rounds 3-4.

With the depth at RB I have trouble pulling the trigger on a 1st round back. Choice, Forte and Rice are all backs that I believe will be quality backs in the NFL and available in rounds 2-4.

All would also make mincemeat out of opponents running in this system (a system that doesn't fit Charles quite as well).

So for me it all depends on who else is available at that #12 slot, and if we can trade down or not. If we can't trade back to get another pick and drop to the late teens instead of #12, and we don't like the money we're paying for the quality of non-RB at #12, then draft Mendenhall or Stewart. Go for the home-run hitter and then try to add the defense and blocking around him.

But it's not a no-brainer.

~G

I have to agree with this....until we make a splash in free agency.

[Lonestar]

I have to agree with this....until we make a splash in free agency.

which according to Pat teh money man we will not like in teh past..

[dogfish]

Stewart may be a more complete player than Connor or Cherilus, are you better off going with the best player or the best combination of players?

The age-old draft question.

If I can get a RB that can do 95% of what Stewart would do in the offense in a later round, but I can only get a LB that would do 85% of what Connor would do (or might not start at all) then am I better off going with (let's say) a Connor/Rice or a Stewart/Gooden tandem set for my first day picks?

It all depends on who that second guy is. I think Tashard Choice is a 1500 yard back in this offense. I think Wheeler is a prime talent at LB who might be there in the 2nd (though I'm starting to doubt it). But we might miss out on Wheeler, so is someone like Beau Bell good enough in the 2nd to offset the loss of whichever LB we wanted at #12? How about at OT or S?

I don't mind a Stewart/Mendenhall pick at #12 (or if we move back a few spots and he's still there, that's okay too).

But we need more than one starter from this draft. In baseball, you use a sliding scale in determining value based on difficulty to replace. If you have A-Rod hitting 35 HRs from the SS position, that's impossible production to replace from that position, which is one reason he got $25 mil a season from Texas.

If you're getting 35 HRs from LF, OTOH, there are a few more guys who can do that. The combination of glove, position and bat is the key.

If you put this draft on a sliding scale, the LBs are not quite as cream-of-the-crop as they were when Laurinaitis and Maualuga were in it. They're still a quality position, but not nearly as dominating with two potential top-10 picks removed from the board.

Safety has some interesting players, but none really stands out from the pack and after the top 3-4 you're getting into projects.

OTs is a great class for the position, considering in most classes there might be 1-2 quality LTs and the rest are RTs or guards. This time there are several good-to-great LT prospects and some great RT ones too - but most will be gone after round one with the incredible need for the position.

And then there's the RBs. IMO there's at least one Pro-Bowler who will be drafted in rounds 3-4, probably more. The depth at RB in this class is unbelievable. With the right system and usage there are a dozen quality RBs who could help their teams or become stars.

Mendenhall and Stewart are as close to locks at RB as you get. Barring injury, they should be dominant backs for at least a half-dozen years.

So you can either lock down the position with one of those players, or gamble more on the position in a later round but fill other needs first which almost certainly will not be filled by players in rounds 3-4.

With the depth at RB I have trouble pulling the trigger on a 1st round back. Choice, Forte and Rice are all backs that I believe will be quality backs in the NFL and available in rounds 2-4.

All would also make mincemeat out of opponents running in this system (a system that doesn't fit Charles quite as well).

So for me it all depends on who else is available at that #12 slot, and if we can trade down or not. If we can't trade back to get another pick and drop to the late teens instead of #12, and we don't like the money we're paying for the quality of non-RB at #12, then draft Mendenhall or Stewart. Go for the home-run hitter and then try to add the defense and blocking around him.

But it's not a no-brainer.

~G



good post, and obviously there are always plenty of angles to consider. . . as i said before, i am crossing my fingers in hope that we'll enter the draft with one main need filled by either corey williams, or shaun rogers if we can't get williams. . . my belief is that right now we've got more holes than we can realistically expect to fill with top talents in one offseason without getting pretty lucky on a few day two picks. . . that being my opinion, i would give clady some serious consideratiojn if he's there, but otherwise i'm all for swinging for the fences with stewart, who IMO probably has a higher ceiling than guys like rivers or connor. . . with a lot of solid OL prospects, even if cherilus and chris williams are gone we should have a shot at anthony collins or possibly brandon albert at 42-- or wheeler or mayo, but my personal preference would be to take an OT and see if we can hit on a 2nd day LB like maybe dizon or bell. . . we've got multiple picks to look at developmental S and WR prospects as well-- if worst comes to worst, and none of our 2nd day prospects pans out, we go into next year knowing that we'll have high interest in S, LB and WR in the early rounds of the draft. . .


i'm just starting to feel that stewart is both the safest pick AND potentially the most rewarding. . . a lot can change between now and then, though. . . .

[broncosfanscott]

Henry came to the Broncos with a reputation as a powerful runner, a good
blocker, and a decent receiver out of the backfield. He didn't disappoint them
in any of that. Moreover, he showed a terrific stiff arm. The only problem was,
he was injured.

Just like Adrian Peterson was. Just like Larry Johnson was.

Henry has already professed a new gratitude and determination to be better
than ever. If he is willing to restructure, and he comes back healthy, the
Broncos ought to do everything they can to keep him. As Shanny himself
said, Henry is the same guy who lead the NFL in rushing the first five games
last year.

-----

I am impressed with the fact that he want to make things better as far as his play (since he was injured) and what happened off the field. I hope everything works out. And by putting Young in there will surely help Henry out just in case.

[Drill-N-Fill]

DT>LB>T>S>WR>RB

Dorsey and Ellis probably won't be there at 12. Other DT's aren't worth it at 12.

At LB, you have Conner and Rivers (kind of undersized) there, but its a lil bit of reach at 12.

That leaves Clady. This is where I hope the Broncos go if Mcfadden isn't there. He's good value for the pick, and has a lot of game experience, size, and athletic ability.

I'm a UM guy and I think Phillips is a lil overrated and not worth it at 12. I say we stick it out another year with our average safteys.

RB's, everybody is high on Stewart and Mend. But would you rather go for a Back or Clady at LT who will protect Cutler's blind side for the next 12 years? I truly believe, we have been missing that featured back since Portis, however there are just too many need positions to get a RB with the 12th pick. If we trade down 5-6 spots and still get Stewart, I'll be happy with that. Just my opinion. Thoughts?

[dogfish]

DT>LB>T>S>WR>RB

Dorsey and Ellis probably won't be there at 12. Other DT's aren't worth it at 12.

At LB, you have Conner and Rivers (kind of undersized) there, but its a lil bit of reach at 12.

That leaves Clady. This is where I hope the Broncos go if Mcfadden isn't there. He's good value for the pick, and has a lot of game experience, size, and athletic ability.

I'm a UM guy and I think Phillips is a lil overrated and not worth it at 12. I say we stick it out another year w/o average safteys.

RB's, everybody is high on Stewart and Mend. But would you rather go for a Back or Clady at LT who will protect Cutler's blind side for the next 12 years? I truly believe, we have been missing that featured back since Portis, however there are just too many need positions to get a RB with the 12th pick. If we trade down 5-6 spots and still get Stewart, I'll be happy with that. Just my opinion. Thoughts?


i can't argue with any of that-- clady has been at the top of my list, and i'll be delighted if we take him. . . the only reason that i'm starting to like the idea of drafting stewart is that guys like anthony collins, brandon albert, and maybe heath benedict might be comparable to clady in terms of pure physical ability and long-term potential, while i'm not sure that any of the later round backs, talented though they may be, have the total package of skills that stewart does. . . . still, if we come away with clady and somebody like simms, wheeler or mayo, i'm sure not going to complain. . . . :woot:


ultimately, i just can't help thinking that we don't pick this high very often, and if we stay at 12 i want to see us make it count by coming away with a true stud. . . . and it's JMO of course, but i feel a lot more confident that stewart is going to be that guy than rivers, connor, phillips or probably balmer. . .

[topscribe]

i can't argue with any of that-- clady has been at the top of my list, and i'll be delighted if we take him. . . the only reason that i'm starting to like the idea of drafting stewart is that guys like anthony collins, brandon albert, and maybe heath benedict might be comparable to clady in terms of pure physical ability and long-term potential, while i'm not sure that any of the later round backs, talented though they may be, have the total package of skills that stewart does. . . . still, if we come away with clady and somebody like simms, wheeler or mayo, i'm sure not going to complain. . . . :woot:


ultimately, i just can't help thinking that we don't pick this high very often, and if we stay at 12 i want to see us make it count by coming away with a true stud. . . . and it's JMO of course, but i feel a lot more confident that stewart is going to be that guy than rivers, connor, phillips or probably balmer. . .

Well, I started out with "line first" like you, but like you, I am not incapable
of being swayed by an intelligent, cogent argument.

Every once in a while, one shows up . . .

-----

[G_Money]

Let's say Clady, Ellis, Dorsey and both Longs are gone, but the only RB off the board is Run DMC.

At this point (pre-combine) that leaves us with someone like Phillips at safety, Balmer at DT, Otah at OT, Connor or Rivers at LB, and Stewart or Mendenhall at RB.

We have not been able to find a trade partner to trade down.

Do we go with the safety who underperformed this year?

The inconsistent and possible one-year wonder at DT?

The OT who doesn't fit our system?

The LBs who are at least competent but would have been bested by a couple of Juniors that stayed in school?

Or the most talented RBs in the draft for our system, knowing we can probably still get a decent RB later?

That scenario is probably the one frustrating Shanny when he looks at the draft board right now.

How the LBs and the junior Phillips show at the combine could say a lot about whether we take this year's Stephen Jackson instead of DJ this time around. Have I mentioned that Rivers reminds me a lot of DJ...?

~G

[BOSSHOGG30]

Let's say Clady, Ellis, Dorsey and both Longs are gone, but the only RB off the board is Run DMC.

At this point (pre-combine) that leaves us with someone like Phillips at safety, Otah at OT, Connor or Rivers at LB, and Stewart or Mendenhall at RB.

We have not been able to find a trade partner to trade down.

Do we go with the safety who underperformed this year?

The OT who doesn't fit our system?

The LBs who are at least competent but would have been bested by a couple of Juniors that stayed in school?

Or the most talented RBs in the draft for our system, knowing we can probably still get a decent RB later?

That scenario is probably the one frustrating Shanny when he looks at the draft board right now.

How the LBs and the junior Phillips show at the combine could say a lot about whether we take this year's Stephen Jackson instead of DJ this time around. Have I mentioned that Rivers reminds me a lot of DJ...?

~G


This is exactly the situation I think will play out too. This could be one of those drafts we look back and say we should of gone with so and so instead of ?

[dogfish]

This is exactly the situation I think will play out too. This could be one of those drafts we look back and say we should of gone with so and so instead of ?

JMO of course, but i believe that three years down the road people may well be debating whether stewart or dorsey is the best player from this draft. . . .

[Lonestar]

JMO of course, but i believe that three years down the road people may well be debating whether stewart or dorsey is the best player from this draft. . . .

I doubt seriously that both will be stars unless injured and that is my friend luck of the draw..

Also depends on which teams they go to, the team could just suck that bad it would not have made a difference..

It is going to take 3-4 years of drafting in the top 5 for ATL to make a difference Much like it did in SAN.

Perennial losers like the bolts, browns, bungals, Cardinals, have to have a complete flush and restock with a great GM picking before they make a difference..

[Scarface]

Let's say Clady, Ellis, Dorsey and both Longs are gone, but the only RB off the board is Run DMC.

At this point (pre-combine) that leaves us with someone like Phillips at safety, Balmer at DT, Otah at OT, Connor or Rivers at LB, and Stewart or Mendenhall at RB.

We have not been able to find a trade partner to trade down.

Do we go with the safety who underperformed this year?

The inconsistent and possible one-year wonder at DT?

The OT who doesn't fit our system?

The LBs who are at least competent but would have been bested by a couple of Juniors that stayed in school?

Or the most talented RBs in the draft for our system, knowing we can probably still get a decent RB later?

That scenario is probably the one frustrating Shanny when he looks at the draft board right now.

How the LBs and the junior Phillips show at the combine could say a lot about whether we take this year's Stephen Jackson instead of DJ this time around. Have I mentioned that Rivers reminds me a lot of DJ...?

~G

Chris Williams and Branden Albert could be options after all is said and done.

[shank]

Chris Williams and Branden Albert could be options after all is said and done.

but do you reach for (what's now considered) a late 1st round tackle or reach very little (or not at all) for stewart or mendenhal?

i agree that if this situation happens and we can't trade down that RB is the pick that will have the most immediate impact on our team.

i really don't like travis henry. i think he's a deadbeat and an idiot. that being said, i actually still hope we restructure and retain him this year. If we don't have henry, then rb is a need, but i think a guy in a later round can be very good. i can't see a guy like forte or choice not getting at least 1200 yards here in denver if they can stay healthy. mix in selvin spelling, and hopefully a badass blocking FB in the draft (schmitt) and it makes it that much easier.

so far to me it looks like it will be hard for the broncos to dissapoint in the draft if they just stick to the needs and keep from reaching or giving up too much because they like a certain guy (ahem... moss)

[Scarface]

but do you reach for (what's now considered) a late 1st round tackle or reach very little (or not at all) for stewart or mendenhal?

i agree that if this situation happens and we can't trade down that RB is the pick that will have the most immediate impact on our team.

i really don't like travis henry. i think he's a deadbeat and an idiot. that being said, i actually still hope we restructure and retain him this year. If we don't have henry, then rb is a need, but i think a guy in a later round can be very good. i can't see a guy like forte or choice not getting at least 1200 yards here in denver if they can stay healthy. mix in selvin spelling, and hopefully a badass blocking FB in the draft (schmitt) and it makes it that much easier.

so far to me it looks like it will be hard for the broncos to dissapoint in the draft if they just stick to the needs and keep from reaching or giving up too much because they like a certain guy (ahem... moss)

Like I said, after all is said and done they might not be reaches. We still haven't had the combine and campus workouts. Draft stock will change a little bit between now and then.