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broncofaninfla
12-22-2009, 11:24 AM
Is Lamont Jordan better than Peyton Hillis? If so, please explain your reasoning....

MasterShake
12-22-2009, 11:32 AM
No. He's Lamont Jordan. Thats why.

claymore
12-22-2009, 11:35 AM
McDaniels thinks so. I have nothing else to go off of. I need more than one run to base my opinion.

broncofaninfla
12-22-2009, 11:37 AM
Jordan showed nothing in camp or preseason and has been hurt most of the season yet a gimpy Jordan was chosen over a healthy and fresh Hillis. Just doesn't make sense and makes me question Mdc's competence and honesty.

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 11:52 AM
It's all about ego.

The cancer in the locker room is the head coach.

claymore
12-22-2009, 11:58 AM
Oh my!

camdisco24
12-22-2009, 11:59 AM
Jordan's Career Vs. Hillis preformance last year= NO

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 12:04 PM
Tatum Bell averaged 5.7 yards per carry last year.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 12:09 PM
Tatum Bell averaged 5.7 yards per carry last year.

Exactly...and Hillis had one and a half good games.

I'm not saying one is better than the other and most of the comments in this thread so far already show the bias involved with this ridiculous poll. The world would be a much better place if people thought before they spoke

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:05 PM
I'm thinking pretty soundly. I KNOW Hillis is a better player. I KNOW that Hillis has the athletic ability to be a STUD in this league. He's not a FB, but a TB. He can catch as well as ANYONE out of the backfield in the NFL, and is a 250lb beast when he runs.

Maybe Hillis whistled at his wife. I don't know. But I know that Hillis is the better player. That being said...the poll is pretty lame (just sayin')

broncofaninfla
12-22-2009, 01:10 PM
Exactly...and Hillis had one and a half good games.

I'm not saying one is better than the other and most of the comments in this thread so far already show the bias involved with this ridiculous poll. The world would be a much better place if people thought before they spoke

Bias? Try opinions....it's a forum...we all have opinions. I'm asking for opinions regardless of where a person stands on this issue.

1 1/2 good games for Hillis, really? How many good games has Jordan had for us?

Ridiculous poll? You would be hard pressed to find a more passionate subject with Broncos fans right now than our short yardage failures and Mcd flat out ignoring Hillis.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 01:12 PM
Bias? Try opinions....it's a forum...we all have opinions. I'm asking for opinions regardless of where a person stands on this issue.

1 1/2 good games for Hillis, really? How many good games has Jordan had for us?

Ridiculous poll? You would be hard pressed to find a more passionate subject with Broncos fans right now than our short yardage failures and Mcd flat out ignoring Hillis.

McD being called a cancer and his cometence and honesty being questioned has SOOOO much to do with who of Jordan and Hillis is better.

broncofaninfla
12-22-2009, 01:17 PM
McD being called a cancer and his cometence and honesty being questioned has SOOOO much to do with who of Jordan and Hillis is better.

Actually it does because ther is no way Jordan has shown he is better than Hillis and I question the competence of the coach who feels that way.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 01:20 PM
Well I think Hillis could be one hell of a Kevin Faulk the go to man in the red zone, third down back out of the backfield..

we all know he runs balls out and takes no prisoners, but doe put DB's on the sidelines when they try to tackle him..

the only reason I can think of he is dumber than a rock and does not get the scheme or he is the father of Joshes next kid.. nothing else makes sense.. IMHO

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 01:22 PM
Well I think Hillis could be one hell of a Kevin Faulk the go to man in the red zone, third down back out of the backfield..

we all know he runs balls out and takes no prisoners, but doe put DB's on the sidelines when they try to tackle him..

the only reason I can think of he is dumber than a rock and does not get the scheme or he is the father of Joshes next kid.. nothing else makes sense.. IMHO

Agreed.

claymore
12-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Well I think Hillis could be one hell of a Kevin Faulk the go to man in the red zone, third down back out of the backfield..

we all know he runs balls out and takes no prisoners, but doe put DB's on the sidelines when they try to tackle him..

the only reason I can think of he is dumber than a rock and does not get the scheme or he is the father of Joshes next kid.. nothing else makes sense.. IMHO


Agreed.

So either way he has more game than Jordan?

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 01:30 PM
So either way he has more game than Jordan?

I wont argue that. Jordan has had in moments in the past, but based on potential and overall ability I would much rather see Hillis in there. But we dont.

So...a coach doesnt use a weapon he has at his disposal and because we havent liked him since he traded away the interception king...the one and apparently only reason for him to NOT play Hillis is his stubborn ego? I know I'm not the only one that sees that as ridiculous.

Whatever the reason is...we dont know. But to insist a coach would simply ignore a potential answer to a problem merely because he doesnt like him or because he's not "one of his guys". Just silly. We dont knwo the answer so we'll just immediately assume the worst.

Buff
12-22-2009, 01:55 PM
Exactly...and Hillis had one and a half good games.

I'm not saying one is better than the other and most of the comments in this thread so far already show the bias involved with this ridiculous poll. The world would be a much better place if people thought before they spoke

Don't be a hater.

Hillis had at least 4 solid games last season and was going for a fifth before he got hurt. Casey Wiegman has basically come out and said that their playoff hopes died with his injury. Considering the production he accumulated when he didn't play at all the first half of the season last year, he deserves a much longer look than he's gotten. Period.

Northman
12-22-2009, 01:57 PM
No way in hell.

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:00 PM
So all you guys think JMCD is wrong?

Buff
12-22-2009, 02:02 PM
Yes, he is letting his judgment be clouded by some external factor that we are not privvy to in this instance. No way Lamont Jordan gives us a better chance to win than Hillis.

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes, he is letting his judgment be clouded by some external factor that we are not privvy to in this instance. No way Lamont Jordan gives us a better chance to win than Hillis.

If he is allowing personal feelings dictate playing time, I dont see how you guys would want him as your HC.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:10 PM
Yes, he is letting his judgment be clouded by some external factor that we are not privvy to in this instance. No way Lamont Jordan gives us a better chance to win than Hillis.

I can see that Jordan has more time in grade and knows the scheme better than Hillis does but that would be the ONLY reason behind this that remotely makes sense..


or as ravage said he whistled at Joshes wife..:laugh::laugh:

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:12 PM
If he is allowing personal feelings dictate playing time, I dont see how you guys would want him as your HC.

earth to Clay he is our HC get used to it..

I did not like alot of things that Reeves did nor mike for that matter.. but I had to live with it then also..

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:15 PM
earth to Clay he is our HC get used to it..

I did not like alot of things that Reeves did nor mike for that matter.. but I had to live with it then also..

I know who he is, and there is nothing I can do about it. But for you guys to blindly support one questionable move after another, then act shocked and outraged about a backup FB not being a RB baffles me.

Buff
12-22-2009, 02:32 PM
I know who he is, and there is nothing I can do about it. But for you guys to blindly support one questionable move after another, then act shocked and outraged about a backup FB not being a RB baffles me.

Because it's all about wins and losses... That's what I keep trying to stress to you. We're a winning team and we control our own destiny to get into the playoffs. That's all you can really ask for in this league. If we were a 2 win team and blindly supporting him, it would be different...

While there have been some questionable moves and while we have been a crappy 2nd half team, it seems that he has a vision for where he's trying to get. Ex: The Cutler move doesn't seem nearly as heinous as it did 6 months ago. We're always going to second guess the coach, that's just the nature of being a fanatic... As long as he's putting a winning product out there it's hard to be too critical of him. Not to mention it's his first year on the job, you've got to give him 2-3 years before you can totally judge his body of work.

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:47 PM
Because it's all about wins and losses... That's what I keep trying to stress to you. We're a winning team and we control our own destiny to get into the playoffs. That's all you can really ask for in this league. If we were a 2 win team and blindly supporting him, it would be different...

While there have been some questionable moves and while we have been a crappy 2nd half team, it seems that he has a vision for where he's trying to get. Ex: The Cutler move doesn't seem nearly as heinous as it did 6 months ago. We're always going to second guess the coach, that's just the nature of being a fanatic... As long as he's putting a winning product out there it's hard to be too critical of him. Not to mention it's his first year on the job, you've got to give him 2-3 years before you can totally judge his body of work.
I agree a hundred percent with all of that. I just dont see why some of the perenial defenders of JMCD would be so bent out of shape about Hillis.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:52 PM
I agree a hundred percent with all of that. I just dont see why some of the perenial defenders of JMCD would be so bent out of shape about Hillis.

perennial having a life cycle lasting more than two years.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perennial

after he has had it, you can BITCH..:laugh:

Buff
12-22-2009, 02:55 PM
I agree a hundred percent with all of that. I just dont see why some of the perenial defenders of JMCD would be so bent out of shape about Hillis.

I could be completely wrong about this, but I think it's a product of you guys not being able to see all of the games last year. If you saw Hillis play last year, I don't see how you could NOT be bent out of shape that he hasn't had a role in the offense all year. He was THAT good in his limited time on the field.

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:55 PM
perennial having a life cycle lasting more than two years.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perennial

after he has had it, you can BITCH..:laugh:

LOL! You know what I meant. I just dont see how Hillis is what got ya'll riled up.

claymore
12-22-2009, 02:57 PM
I could be completely wrong about this, but I think it's a product of you guys not being able to see all of the games last year. If you saw Hillis play last year, I don't see how you could NOT be bent out of shape that he hasn't had a role in the offense all year. He was THAT good in his limited time on the field.

I saw every game last year. I thought Hillis had a bright future as a FB, but LOL'ed when you guys said he would be a RB.

If anything, Im pissed we dont utilize a FB more, and Im pissed larsen is a better blocker, cause I dont think he is nearly as athletic.

Buff
12-22-2009, 03:07 PM
I saw every game last year. I thought Hillis had a bright future as a FB, but LOL'ed when you guys said he would be a RB.

If anything, Im pissed we dont utilize a FB more, and Im pissed larsen is a better blocker, cause I dont think he is nearly as athletic.

I don't think anyone is saying give him 200+ carries per season...

But 3-5 touches per game seems perfectly reasonable... Especially when he can get you the tough short yards and that happens to be our weakness.

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 03:13 PM
I'm STILL saying that I think Hillis can be a TB. Absolutely.. Yes. I know I feel JUST as confident that Hillis' skill set would be JUST as effective for us from what I've seen of Moreno.... so far. I was MUCH more impressed with Hillis last year, than I have been with Moreno this year.

Dean
12-22-2009, 07:54 PM
Agreed.

I wonder who voted yes?





:laugh:

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 07:59 PM
I wonder who voted yes?





:laugh:


josh.. was logged in for a few minutes earlier..:salute:

Buff
12-22-2009, 08:09 PM
I wonder who voted yes?





:laugh:

Well, Dream is banned... So I think it must have been Clay.

Bozo Jr.
12-22-2009, 08:58 PM
He will be be gone after this season so who givies a flying **** about Hillis!

Medford Bronco
12-22-2009, 09:05 PM
Well I think Hillis could be one hell of a Kevin Faulk the go to man in the red zone, third down back out of the backfield..

we all know he runs balls out and takes no prisoners, but doe put DB's on the sidelines when they try to tackle him..

the only reason I can think of he is dumber than a rock and does not get the scheme or he is the father of Joshes next kid.. nothing else makes sense.. IMHO

I said it earlier, he must have a picture of McDs wife naked with Tiger Woods:eek::lol:

CoachChaz
12-23-2009, 08:16 AM
Hillis was listed as a FB in the draft simply because he's a 250 lb white guy...but as far as his skills and what he knows...he's a TB. However, he's not a 25 carry TB. The entire NFL knows that. A good example will be to watch where heisman runner up Toby Gerhart gets drafted. Watch him slip to round 3.

That being said, I think Hillis would be solid getting 3-5 carries per game in certain situations and like everyone else...I'm curious as to why it doesnt happen. But since he'll never be a premiere back...drafting Moreno was necessary. After that, you cant even use Hillis as a regular back-up because he offers no "change of pace".

Hillis' future is as an H back. He'll be playing elsewhere in the near future and no matter where he goes, he'll never make or break a team's success.

Ravage!!!
12-23-2009, 12:44 PM
Hillis' future is as an H back. He'll be playing elsewhere in the near future and no matter where he goes, he'll never make or break a team's success.

only a couple things I disagree with on your post. ONe, I think he should get more than 3-5 carries. But.. :shrug:

2... I think he does offer a change of pace. Much like the Bradshaw and Jacobs (although Hillis is a much better receiver than Jacobs). I don't see why Hillis couldn't be just as effective as Jacobs as a RB.

and 3...we've seen pass catching TEs be a HUGE difference maker from just ok teams, to great teams. OR from bad teams to good teams. Hillis in a H-back type role (like Wycheck used to be), could very much be a difference maker for a team. Used as a stud RB and getting first downs instead of punting, is a difference maker. Putting the ball in the endzone instead of kicking the FG, could be a huge difference maker.

All depends on the team he ends up on and their current needs and the role he fills.

Ravage!!!
12-23-2009, 12:46 PM
He will be be gone after this season so who givies a flying **** about Hillis!

ME.. and hte ONLY reason Hillis is GONE after the season, is because (for unknown reasons) the coach isn't using his talent. Thus... I CARE about Hillis.

JDL
12-23-2009, 12:56 PM
Tatum Bell averaged 5.7 yards per carry last year.

That was on only 44 carries.... and inflated by 2 runs for 63yds in the final game. On a carry to carry basis he was ALWAYS unreliable and inconsistent... he would constantly get no gains, but his average always looked better than it really was because of his speed and ability to go the distance. Had just horrible field vision.

JDL
12-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Exactly...and Hillis had one and a half good games.

I'm not saying one is better than the other and most of the comments in this thread so far already show the bias involved with this ridiculous poll. The world would be a much better place if people thought before they spoke

This isn't accurate.

Week 9 - 116 total yards 1 TD (7 touches)
Week 10 - didn't play much and didn't get 1st touch until well into the 3rd Q when Torain got hurt.
Week 11 - 70 total yards 2 TDs (13 touches)
Week 12 - 96 total yards 1 TD (19 touches)
Week 13 - 129 total yards 1 TD (22 touches)
Week 14 - 69 total yards 1 TD (9 touches - injured)

His red zone TDs

1st and G MIA 1 - TD-REC
2nd and 1 ATL 7 - TD (9yd pass on 1st down set this up)
3rd and G ATL 2 - TD (Pope got the touches on 1st/2nd down from the 4)
4th and 1 OAK 6 - TD (2 passes and WR reverse led to this situation)
1st and G NYJ 1 - TD
*Note his other rushing TD was an 18yd run

This team struggles in the Red Zone? Well, here you have 5 red zone examples of why Hillis deserves a chance. He is versatile and powerful against goaline type defenses.

Additionally, between the 20s he was very good and averaged 6.86yds/touch.

I don't think anyone is really advocating making him the starter, but this is a guy who can be a very dangerous and versatile playmaker in relief of Hillis/Buck and particularly with the injuries has at least shown enough (if you watched the game tape from last year AT ALL) to know he deserves a shot. My guess is due to the Cutler situation that ruffled a lot of feathers (Stokely was pissed about the long-snapper, Hillis and Scheffler were both put on the trade block according to MANY rumors probably due to personality issues.) It has every outside appearance of an internal conflict rather than a performance issue.

broncofaninfla
12-23-2009, 01:37 PM
This isn't accurate.

Week 9 - 116 total yards 1 TD (7 touches)
Week 10 - didn't play much and didn't get 1st touch until well into the 3rd Q when Torain got hurt.
Week 11 - 70 total yards 2 TDs (13 touches)
Week 12 - 96 total yards 1 TD (19 touches)
Week 13 - 129 total yards 1 TD (22 touches)
Week 14 - 69 total yards 1 TD (9 touches - injured)

His red zone TDs

1st and G MIA 1 - TD-REC
2nd and 1 ATL 7 - TD (9yd pass on 1st down set this up)
3rd and G ATL 2 - TD (Pope got the touches on 1st/2nd down from the 4)
4th and 1 OAK 6 - TD (2 passes and WR reverse led to this situation)
1st and G NYJ 1 - TD
*Note his other rushing TD was an 18yd run

This team struggles in the Red Zone? Well, here you have 5 red zone examples of why Hillis deserves a chance. He is versatile and powerful against goaline type defenses.

Additionally, between the 20s he was very good and averaged 6.86yds/touch.

I don't think anyone is really advocating making him the starter, but this is a guy who can be a very dangerous and versatile playmaker in relief of Hillis/Buck and particularly with the injuries has at least shown enough (if you watched the game tape from last year AT ALL) to know he deserves a shot. My guess is due to the Cutler situation that ruffled a lot of feathers (Stokely was pissed about the long-snapper, Hillis and Scheffler were both put on the trade block according to MANY rumors probably due to personality issues.) It has every outside appearance of an internal conflict rather than a performance issue.

I continue to see more evidence to make a case for more playing time than I do not to play him. Just wish the coach would be forthcoming about why he isn't playing him because I truly don't believe the bs Mcd has said about this to date.

rcsodak
12-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Is Lamont Jordan better than Peyton Hillis? If so, please explain your reasoning....

Only 1 person who owns an opinion on this matter....who is able to see both of them close up during practices.....

....and he doesn't reside on this board.



He holds the Trump card.

hotcarl
12-23-2009, 11:44 PM
i voted "no" FYI

good thread, quick read, lots of thrills.

merry xmas you dark vampire,
carl
:welcome::fro:

broncofaninfla
12-24-2009, 09:30 AM
Only 1 person who owns an opinion on this matter....who is able to see both of them close up during practices.....

....and he doesn't reside on this board.



He holds the Trump card.

With each stop on every short yaradge situation we fail to convert and with each loss, the kid holding the trump card is making me wonder WTF he is thinking..........

rcsodak
12-26-2009, 02:08 AM
With each stop on every short yaradge situation we fail to convert and with each loss, the kid holding the trump card is making me wonder WTF he is thinking..........

Well, I doubt you're the only one, fla.

But maybe we should all question Hillis, instead? Maybe he's "packed it in?"

Dean
12-26-2009, 07:47 AM
He didn't "pack it in" when he was allowed to play against KC.

dogfish
12-26-2009, 01:12 PM
Well, I doubt you're the only one, fla.

But maybe we should all question Hillis, instead? Maybe he's "packed it in?"

let him play, and watch him pack it in the endzone. . . .


free hillis!


the movement starts here. . . .

Ravage!!!
12-26-2009, 01:43 PM
With each stop on every short yaradge situation we fail to convert and with each loss, the kid holding the trump card is making me wonder WTF he is thinking..........

There isn't any question. He's being smart. He's made it VERY clear that he's protecting our back-up FB, and he's too valuable to put in the game because of that role :shocked:

BCJ
12-26-2009, 10:40 PM
Lamont was a waste of a pickup and was brought in based on McD knowing him...fair enough. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT HE IS BETTER THAN PEYTON! Not sure if McD is just giving everyone the big one finger salute but this is killing us not being able to run 3rd and 4th and short. Not saying Hillis would make everyone, but Ive seen enough of Moreno not following blocks and getting stuffed. I know Hillis could shed one of those Defensive players to get a needed first down.

rcsodak
12-26-2009, 11:56 PM
He didn't "pack it in" when he was allowed to play against KC.
True, coach. But NONE of us know his attitude during the week.

There simply has to be a reason he's not seeing the field after McD buried him with praise all offseason.

Maybe he's fumbling the rock in practices? I dunno..... :tsk:

getlynched47
12-27-2009, 01:30 AM
Lamont Jordan can suck it.

JDL
12-27-2009, 02:46 AM
You know... I can't help but laugh at the willful ignorance of some people who will NEVER question the coach...'oh... he's at practice ... he knows more than you... he CAN'T possibly be wrong' lol. Nobody, is perfect ... period! And truthfully, Broncos fans are more than forgiving, but when the overwhelming majority of people see something for which the coach won't even give ANY semblance of a logical explanation for... fans have EVERY right and really a DUTY to call BS.

Coaches don't have to explain their every decision, but when they repeatedly fail and do nothing but continue to do the SAME things that led to that failure, fans who pay the money that supports the organization, deserve answers.... sorry... owners treat it as a business... well, fine... it's a business... I expect results for my support (including monetary.) I sure as hell wouldn't have sat around as a Lions fan and excused EVERY idiotic move of Matt Millen. It doesn't take an expert in ANYTHING to recognize incompetence or to evaluate results. We as fans may not know all the reasons why things are the way they are, but Hillis has shown a certain ability in the red zone and short yardage, anyone with a pair of eyes saw it last year. We've seen total ineptitude in that area this year and the team hasn't tried ANYTHING new... same personnel same formations.... you have to question someone... anyone who continues to adhere to the all the same things that have led to obvious failures... and when that person continues to fail to explain any reason other than continuing to support guys like HIllis with success in this area, but then not playing them.. WILL get criticized, you better damn well expect that... you don't want to get criticized anymore? get the problem fixed.

Sorry, it is a result-oriented business and we have not only failed to see results in that area, we have progressively gotten worse. It begs serious questions which McDaniels can choose to answer in press conferences or on the field by resolving the problem. Make your choice.

Timmy!
12-27-2009, 04:08 AM
I blame Orton.

Dean
12-27-2009, 08:52 AM
True, coach. But NONE of us know his attitude during the week.

There simply has to be a reason he's not seeing the field after McD buried him with praise all offseason.

Maybe he's fumbling the rock in practices? I dunno..... :tsk:

I don't know what he could be showing in practice. I've never heard of a fourth string RB getting any practice time except on the scout offense or when there are multiple injuries.

IMO this decision was made months ago and hasn't been revisited. Therein lie my problem. If what you are doing is unsuccessful, you can't just say it's yhe best we've got abd exclude all other options. Maybe Hillis can't get it done, either, but without making an attempt that has been successful (a battering ram type of back) with other teams not all options have been explored.

As a coach, I've always seen my job as to explore every possibility to give my team the best chance to be successful.

titan
12-27-2009, 09:25 AM
I'm a big fan of Hillis but I think his problem is that he isn't that great of a blocker and he isn't good on special teams. McD tried to use Peyton as a returner early in the season but it didn't work out.

Maybe Jordan is a better blocker (doubt he's any value on special teams). I would like to see more of Peyton's power running and receiving abilities used in this offense.

Ravage!!!
12-27-2009, 11:26 AM
Like JDL said above. Its not so much that he isn't being used, but there hasn't been a SINGLE explanation that makes sense. Everythign is sidestepped and avoided, OR... we get "he's the ONLY back-up FB, and we can't risk it." Which makes NOOOO sense.

So I think because we haven't been given a REAL answer, it leads me to believe that there is something OTHER than football, and right now BOTH are doing the right thing about not taking it to the press. Leave it in the locker room, keep it in house. Thats how it should be. BUT, there is no way anyone can truly believe that there is logical FOOTBALL sense to the lack of use of a very skilled athlete.

broncophan
12-27-2009, 11:36 AM
I would have to think McD would want his best 11 players on offense on the field at all times in any/every situation........whatever the circumstances...so imo....McD, as the head coach,......does not think Hillis can help him/his team....or we would see him on the field......unless McD doesn't care......I just don't see how personal grudges or things like that would play any factor on game day.

Ravage!!!
12-27-2009, 11:42 AM
I would have to think McD would want his best 11 players on offense on the field at all times in any/every situation........whatever the circumstances...so imo....McD, as the head coach,......does not think Hillis can help him/his team....or we would see him on the field......unless McD doesn't care......I just don't see how personal grudges or things like that would play any factor on game day.

It happens all the time. We see it all over the NFL. Coaches and players are human. People don't always get along. People don't always work well together. Bosses and employees dont' always get along. Thats a reality all over the world. The NFL isn't any different.

If we heard a story of a player and coach not getting along on another team, would we really be that shocked or surprised to read about it??? No. Its not that uncommon. Why would we be so shocked to find that a coach in Denver doesn't get along with a player? It happens.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2009, 11:50 AM
Overall? Jordan was probably better in his prime than Hillis. He was a beast in NY playing behind Curtis Martin.

Now... I don't think so. I'd like to see Hillis get more playing time based on his performance last year but I'm not in charge, am I? I think it's pretty humorous that the majority of the "why aren't we playing Hillis?" advocates are also the biggest McDaniels supporters. The "scheme" apologists.

You really can't have both. Either you support McD's judgement on his scheme and players in it or you support getting Hillis back in a major role with the offense. Personally, I HATE our new offense. Hillis, Scheffler and most importantly Eddie Royal have been the victims of it.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2009, 11:53 AM
It happens all the time. We see it all over the NFL. Coaches and players are human. People don't always get along. People don't always work well together. Bosses and employees dont' always get along. Thats a reality all over the world. The NFL isn't any different.

If we heard a story of a player and coach not getting along on another team, would we really be that shocked or surprised to read about it??? No. Its not that uncommon. Why would we be so shocked to find that a coach in Denver doesn't get along with a player? It happens.

It's not just a McD/Hillis thing. Eddie Royal seems to be on that wagon, Scheffler too. McD is playing "his guys" over Broncos on the team when he got here. Gaffney sees the field more than Royal or Stokely. Jordan gets carries over Hillis if Buck can't go. Hochstein replaced Hamilton - but that hasn't fixed anything - the running game is WORSE and the passing game still stinks.

You figure it out.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2009, 12:06 PM
The problem with not playing Hillis at FB over Larsen is simple. Larsen, even when healthy, is not an offensive threat. He's a run blocker, pure and simple. The defense doesn't even have to pretend to account for him on the field. There's no way he's getting the ball. He won't ever be a runner, a receiver out of the backfield or even a pass protector. When he sets foot on the field, we're running the ball plain and simple. You might as well line up a Guard at FB. This tips our hand every time.

With a FB who is an offensive threat, you have to account for him, even if you don't think he's getting the ball. Mike Tolbert in SD is the perfect example. About once a game, he catches a pass that goes for big yardage because everyone is too busy watching Gates, LT, Sproles, Jackson, etc and forgets about him. Once he catches that one pass, the defense now has to account for him when he's in the game and that removes a defender to account for someone else. Hillis gives us that ace. Larsen doesn't.

I don't care what McD's feelings on Hillis are, you play your best players and do what you can to win games. We're a better team with Hillis in the game than without him. Period.

broncophan
12-27-2009, 12:09 PM
It happens all the time. We see it all over the NFL. Coaches and players are human. People don't always get along. People don't always work well together. Bosses and employees dont' always get along. Thats a reality all over the world. The NFL isn't any different.

If we heard a story of a player and coach not getting along on another team, would we really be that shocked or surprised to read about it??? No. Its not that uncommon. Why would we be so shocked to find that a coach in Denver doesn't get along with a player? It happens.

I don't doubt that coaches don't get along with some players.....including McD.
I just find it hard to believe that a head coach would not want his 11 best players on the field at any time.....

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2009, 12:16 PM
I don't doubt that coaches don't get along with some players.....including McD.
I just find it hard to believe that a head coach would not want his 11 best players on the field at any time.....

I don't think it has anything to do with "getting along". How can anyone not like Eddie Royal? Sure he gets playing time but he's rarely targeted and almost never the first option on any play. Hillis is just another Bronco not named Kyle Orton, Brandon Marshall, Knowshon Moreno, or Correll Buckhalter. Right now, these are the only guys touching the ball in McD's offense with any consistency.

Lonestar
12-27-2009, 12:36 PM
I don't doubt that coaches don't get along with some players.....including McD.
I just find it hard to believe that a head coach would not want his 11 best players on the field at any time.....

I think he believes that Jordan is the better player here because he has been in the scheme longer, thus he trusts him more..


I don't think it has anything to do with "getting along". How can anyone not like Eddie Royal? Sure he gets playing time but he's rarely targeted and almost never the first option on any play. Hillis is just another Bronco not named Kyle Orton, Brandon Marshall, Knowshon Moreno, or Correll Buckhalter. Right now, these are the only guys touching the ball in McD's offense with any consistency.

I do not think Eddie not getting the ball has anything to do with Josh they call a play and once at the LOS the QB looks at the D and then goes through the progression.. nothing more or less. He certainly has trust in Marshall, hell marshall probably has promised him a half a mil as an incentive to feed him the ball..:laugh:

Orton knows if he trows it to him he will catch it..

HORSEPOWER 56
12-27-2009, 02:38 PM
I think he believes that Jordan is the better player here because he has been in the scheme longer, thus he trusts him more..



I do not think Eddie not getting the ball has anything to do with Josh they call a play and once at the LOS the QB looks at the D and then goes through the progression.. nothing more or less. He certainly has trust in Marshall, hell marshall probably has promised him a half a mil as an incentive to feed him the ball..:laugh:

Orton knows if he trows it to him he will catch it..

I just don't see how a guy with 90 catches just "disappears". It's not like we don't throw the ball a lot in this scheme. When thrown to, Eddie still makes very good catches. Either way, there are only two answers:

1) Orton won't throw it Eddie's way
2) McD's scheme doesn't give Eddie opportunities

It's almost impossible to believe that Eddie is somehow blanketed on every play and is never open. Look at the offense as it is right now, only McD's "guys" are seeing any action.

BroncoWave
12-27-2009, 05:18 PM
There you go Hillis nuthuggers, he got a carry on 3rd and 1 and got stuffed. Please **** now. RB is clearly not our problem on short yardage, it's the blocking. And there is NOTHING Hillis can do to fix that.

Buff
12-27-2009, 06:00 PM
There you go Hillis nuthuggers, he got a carry on 3rd and 1 and got stuffed. Please **** now. RB is clearly not our problem on short yardage, it's the blocking. And there is NOTHING Hillis can do to fix that.

Yeah, 1 carry where they knew a run was coming is a great sample size. :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone is claiming that the line isn't a big problem... Our contention is that we've tried to run with a busted line with Moreno, Buck and Jordan with limited success... Why not give Hillis a shot? What do we have to lose?

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-27-2009, 07:58 PM
Yeah, 1 carry where they knew a run was coming is a great sample size. :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone is claiming that the line isn't a big problem... Our contention is that we've tried to run with a busted line with Moreno, Buck and Jordan with limited success... Why not give Hillis a shot? What do we have to lose?

Hillis just had his shot and blew it, just like his shots in the first four games of the season with the fumbling and penalties and arguing. Every shot he's had this year he's blown and i'd be surprised to see him on this team come 2010.

JDL
12-27-2009, 09:22 PM
I just don't see how a guy with 90 catches just "disappears". It's not like we don't throw the ball a lot in this scheme. When thrown to, Eddie still makes very good catches. Either way, there are only two answers:

1) Orton won't throw it Eddie's way
2) McD's scheme doesn't give Eddie opportunities

It's almost impossible to believe that Eddie is somehow blanketed on every play and is never open. Look at the offense as it is right now, only McD's "guys" are seeing any action.


Royal is a slant WR primarily, Orton is pretty inaccurate throwing the slant. He doesn't trust it because he is usually behind the WR and he only trusts Marshall because he has made so many INT saving receptions. Royal is NOT the problem, he still gets open on those slants, but rarely do we throw the slant, Most of Orton's completions are stationary or curl route targets that sit down in the zone or run a route with little lateral movement allowing him to throw more or less on a straight path. Stokely is in the same boat (actually drops earlier in the season have him in the dog house too) Gaffney is more of a possession WR who can find a soft spot in a zone and sit down which is why he gets a few targets. Really, other than Marshall though, we don't throw many slants because of Orton's accuracy issues.

JDL
12-27-2009, 09:23 PM
Hillis just had his shot and blew it, just like his shots in the first four games of the season with the fumbling and penalties and arguing. Every shot he's had this year he's blown and i'd be surprised to see him on this team come 2010.

He had his shot from the FB position which isn't the same.. a FB blast gives that player no choice but to hit the POA ... If you lined HIllis up with a FB it would have been a more valid analysis of his ability this year, but like mentioned above... not much of a sample size.

Dean
12-27-2009, 10:21 PM
There you go Hillis nuthuggers, he got a carry on 3rd and 1 and got stuffed. Please **** now. RB is clearly not our problem on short yardage, it's the blocking. And there is NOTHING Hillis can do to fix that.

It looks like he is not the only one stuffed recently.

http://www.nfl.com/players/knowshonmoreno/profile?id=MOR120768

Knowshon Moreno | #27 | RB

Denver Broncos | Official Team Site



Height: 5-11 Weight: 210 Age: 22

Born: 7/16/1987 Belford , NJ

College: Georgia

Experience: Rookie

Recent Games more
WK OPP RESULT Rushing Receiving Fumbles
Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
14 @ IND L 16-28 23 63 2.7 11 0 3 13 4.3 8 0 -- --
15 OAK L 19-20 19 42 2.2 8 0 3 39 13.0 21 0 -- --
16 @ PHI L 27-30 9 18 2.0 6 0 3 17 5.7 16T 1 -- --

Career Stats more
Season Team Rushing Receiving Fumbles
G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost
2009 Denver Broncos 15 9 233 897 3.8 36 5 25 165 6.6 27 2 4 4
TOTAL 233 897 3.8 36 5 25 165 6.6 27 2 4 4

© 2009 NFL Enterprises LLC. NFL and the NFL shield design are registered trademarks of the National Football League.The team names, logos and uniform designs are registered trademarks of the teams indicated. All other NFL-related trademarks are trademarks of the National Football League. NFL footage © NFL Productions LLC. PRIVACY POLICY [/QUOTE]

How are those numbers for getting the job done?

Lonestar
12-27-2009, 10:26 PM
from what I recall the only one today that ran well was bucky..

moreno has not really shown me much..

as for the Hillis run with that little option to improvise the holes has to be there not the backs of your OLINE guys being stuffed..

to close to the LOS to make much of a cut so it is a QUICK give to a Big back..

Italianmobstr7
12-27-2009, 10:37 PM
Wait, so you're saying that if the O-line isn't blocking well (which they didn't on Hillis' run) then we might not have a good running game? So why is that the case for Hillis but not for Moreno?...

Lonestar
12-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Wait, so you're saying that if the O-line isn't blocking well (which they didn't on Hillis' run) then we might not have a good running game? So why is that the case for Hillis but not for Moreno?...

no one said is not..

but in hillis case he was the UP back with no decision making time what so ever..

both bucky and moreno play the deep back that has some latitude on where they are supposed to go.. and chances to change it if their hole is pluggged..

Hillis was called to power dive behind his OLINE that is supposed to generate some push .. they did not and being that close to the line not much time to do much other than plug away.. to close to bounce it outside. and frankly I would rather my 240 RB s hit the hole and go.. not dance around in the back field like moreno is doing..

when a power dive is called there is not cut back for him to go to..

BCJ
12-28-2009, 02:35 AM
why dont the naysayers on hillis actually look back at the play where he is stuffed. He was stopped at least a yard behind the LOS. He got within 4 inches of the first down. That enabled us to go for it on 4th which his block helped the RB and not the FB, make the necessary yardage. Moreno is not a Short yardage rb. Take away his big 3rd down run against KC and you have a very average to below average results.

dogfish
12-28-2009, 03:01 AM
Like JDL said above. Its not so much that he isn't being used, but there hasn't been a SINGLE explanation that makes sense. Everythign is sidestepped and avoided, OR... we get "he's the ONLY back-up FB, and we can't risk it." Which makes NOOOO sense.

So I think because we haven't been given a REAL answer, it leads me to believe that there is something OTHER than football, and right now BOTH are doing the right thing about not taking it to the press. Leave it in the locker room, keep it in house. Thats how it should be. BUT, there is no way anyone can truly believe that there is logical FOOTBALL sense to the lack of use of a very skilled athlete.

josh's wife isn't talking either, so we may never know the answer. . .



I think he believes that Jordan is the better player here because he has been in the scheme longer, thus he trusts him more..



I do not think Eddie not getting the ball has anything to do with Josh they call a play and once at the LOS the QB looks at the D and then goes through the progression.. nothing more or less. He certainly has trust in Marshall, hell marshall probably has promised him a half a mil as an incentive to feed him the ball..:laugh:

Orton knows if he trows it to him he will catch it..

orton also knows that marshall has a MUCH bigger frame and wider catching radius, which give his frequently lass than pinpoint passes a greater chance of being caught. . . also, marshall's big body is much better at walling off defenders on those comeback routes. . . just sayin'. . .



Yeah, 1 carry where they knew a run was coming is a great sample size. :rolleyes:



owned by reality. . .

but ya just KNEW the "father knows best" peeps would use that one play to justify peyton's complete and total yearlong lack of involvement in the offense. . .



Royal is a slant WR primarily, Orton is pretty inaccurate throwing the slant. He doesn't trust it because he is usually behind the WR and he only trusts Marshall because he has made so many INT saving receptions. Royal is NOT the problem, he still gets open on those slants, but rarely do we throw the slant, Most of Orton's completions are stationary or curl route targets that sit down in the zone or run a route with little lateral movement allowing him to throw more or less on a straight path. Stokely is in the same boat (actually drops earlier in the season have him in the dog house too) Gaffney is more of a possession WR who can find a soft spot in a zone and sit down which is why he gets a few targets. Really, other than Marshall though, we don't throw many slants because of Orton's accuracy issues.

great point. . . today i was freakin' SCREAMING for us to throw some slants-- or drags, or square-ins. . . our play calling is so gat damn stale-- you can only throw so many five yard comebacks before the defense kinda figures it out. . . did anybody notice that when we threw a couple of slants and skinny posts in the second half we actually started moving the ball? marshall runs well off the comebacks because he's big enough to turn around and shed that first tackler, but royal is much better when he's going forward and the ball hits him in stride. . .

i won't even say anything about the number of screens we threw AGAIN today, because my head will probably explode. . . and it's just brutally ironic, because i love the screen-- i spent most of the past decade bitching because we have the personnel to execute them well and shenanigans refused to dial them up. . . now it's just the opposite-- i said before the game that we'd lose if josh called fifteen screens, and i bet we ran more than that. . . :tsk:

for all the talk about his "amoeba" offense in the offseason, it sure looks like he only has about ten or fifteen plays in his play book. . .

Dean
12-28-2009, 08:06 AM
Naw, we have more than 10 or 15 plays, We have at least that many screen passes and that fan favorite Moreno off guard left and right. :D We even have a screen to our LT. :frusty:

CoachChaz
12-28-2009, 08:23 AM
Knowshon Moreno - ROOKIE

That is all

Ravage!!!
12-28-2009, 10:41 AM
I've seen a LOT of rookie RBs in the NFL.

Elevation inc
12-28-2009, 10:56 AM
I've seen a LOT of rookie RBs in the NFL.

meh its our OL, look at how matt forte is fairing behind his....and he was a beast last year

CoachChaz
12-28-2009, 11:08 AM
I've seen a LOT of rookie RBs in the NFL.

Yeah...and the successful ones had o-lines that blocked. I'll give you that Moreno makes rookie mistakes, but how anyone cant see the middle of our line get blown up on a regular basis is beyond me. Must be the coaching:rolleyes:

broncofaninfla
12-28-2009, 11:23 AM
Hillis just had his shot and blew it, just like his shots in the first four games of the season with the fumbling and penalties and arguing. Every shot he's had this year he's blown and i'd be surprised to see him on this team come 2010.

:tsk: