Paige: Moreno not in running to get job done for Broncos

[broncofaninfla]

Paige: Moreno not in running to get job done for Broncos

By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/22/2009 01:00:00 AM MST


Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14045600#ixzz0aQpjLcHD (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14045600#ixzz0aQpjLcHD)
Perhaps the Broncos' rookie running back should be called No-Gain Moreno, or his name possibly should be written as Knwshn Mren.
Here are statistics the Broncos won't tell you, and you may not believe:
Of Knowshon Moreno's 224 runs this season, 36.6 percent have been stopped for 1, 0 or negative yards. A startling 23.7 percent of his rushes have produced a cumulative minus-39 yards.
Knowshon had no gain on five of his carries Sunday against the Raiders. He lost yardage on four attempts. He picked up 1 yard twice. His other eight runs resulted in 3, 8, 7, 5, 7, 8, 6 and 4 yards. Nineteen rushes for 42 yards, a 2.2-yard average.
No wonder the Broncos' offense is struggling, straggling, sprawling, straining, stressing. The running game is running aground with Moreno.
When will somebody admit it?
If Moreno, who has 879 yards with two games remaining, reaches 1,000 yards, he will have no honor among NFL runners.
Real rushers don't fail to surpass 100 yards once in a season. Real running backs have at least two runs in the 30-plus category in a season. Real members of the Broncos' 1,000-yard club don't have five games in which they net fewer than 50 yards, or 11 games in which they have negative plays, or five games in which their longest run is not in double digits.
Welcome to the NFL; this isn't the SEC.
And Knowshon held out for more — or Moreno — money.
Sure, he's a rookie, and he's getting his footing, and he doesn't have enough help in front of him, but he was the highest-drafted running back, and he was drafted at a spot where you expect to get a big- time player who makes an immediate impact. The Broncos have a long history of running backs who averaged more than 3.9 yards per carry their first season.
Even last year, when the Broncos were a dead team walking at season's end, and running backs were falling all over the field, seven different backs averaged more than 4 yards a carry. All except one were jettisoned. The leftover running back, Peyton Hillis, averaged 5.0 yards a carry last year and is averaging 4.5 in limited duty this year.
Hillis rushed for 129 yards in a road game last year. And, he did rush for 47 yards in one series at Kansas City this season.
But Josh McDaniels and his assistants act as if Hillis is The Invisible Man. "Why doesn't McDaniels like him?" is the most common question in Denver, and it's a reasonable question. McDaniels is not answering, except to say that he wants "my best players on the field."
Moreno, honestly, hasn't been that best player.
It has been documented that the Broncos have serious troubles on third-and-short and fourth-and-short, and near the goal. (They couldn't score a touchdown from the Raiders' 2-yard line with a chance to ice the game Sunday.)
But, every bit as important as their third-down problems are their first-down issues.
The Broncos' had 27 first- down situations (including: after kickoffs, at the beginning of the second half and after an interception) on Sunday.
Moreno was called upon to carry on first down — left, right and up the middle — 14 times. He got 23 yards on four first-quarter first-down runs, and 6 yards on 10 carries on first down the rest of the game.
As McDaniels has said, the blame can be spread around. The offensive line is not doing its job on the right, the left or in the middle. The screwy combination of old and new blocking schemes isn't succeeding. Because quarterback Kyle Orton doesn't stretch the field — and isn't asked to — defenses can pack the box with linebackers and safeties and cheat their cornerbacks up close.
And the play calling from McDaniels and his lieutenants — notably Mike McCoy, in his first year as an offensive coordinator — has been predictable, conservative and boring. If we know that Knowshon is running the ball on 50 percent of every first down, so do opponents. McDaniels promised to reveal offensive concepts never seen before. We've seen this type of attack over and over before.
Offensive line coach Rick Dennison and Bobby Turner, holdovers from the Mike Shanahan era, probably will be dismissed, but there was nothing wrong with their coaching of running backs and the offensive line in past years.
If McDaniels rigidly intends to stick with Moreno, the coach must call for the pass 50 times in Philadelphia to have a chance to win. The Eagles are 10th in the league against the rush. The Raiders are 28th.
Less Moreno, please.

[CoachChaz]

Paige is a scmuck. I'll agree Moreno is a rookie and is making mistakes, but this article completely sucks.

[broncofaninfla]

I agree Paige is a schmuck but I also agree with most of the article. The no gain and tackles for losses are a telling stat IMO and no it isn't all on the line.

[Mike]

I have been a little disappointed with Moreno, but it is hard to get positive yards when your offensive line is getting pushed back into your face and you are having to dodge the defense as soon as you get the hand-off.

[CoachChaz]

I agree Paige is a schmuck but I also agree with most of the article. The no gain and tackles for losses are a telling stat IMO and no it isn't all on the line.

I agreed with that. Sure, the line has it's issues, but it cant all beblamed on them. Moreno has to accept a portion of the blame. But I think Woody has a problem realizing the same thing that alot of others around here cant seem to grasp.

He's a ******* rookie. Why do we expect him to be the icon of perfection already?

[broncofaninfla]

I agreed with that. Sure, the line has it's issues, but it cant all beblamed on them. Moreno has to accept a portion of the blame. But I think Woody has a problem realizing the same thing that alot of others around here cant seem to grasp.

He's a ******* rookie. Why do we expect him to be the icon of perfection already?

I'll admit I have high expectations for the first RB taken in the draft. Maybe I'm spolied because we have had so much success through out the years with other rookies? Not sure, I just know I am VERY dissapointed in our running game as a whole and embarrassed everytime we fail in a short yardage situation and we fail a lot. I'm also pissed and confused about Mcd not using Hillis. He isn't being forthcoming about his reasons for not using him. Hillis has proven in the past he can get tough yardage, is hard to bring down and is a fan favorite for a reason, the kid can play in this league. A lot of Denver fans feel he can help us but Mcd seems hell bent to stick with the guys and schemes that have failed time and time again this season and keep us guessing as to why he won't play Hillis.

[Ravage!!!]

I know he's a rookie. I've seen a lot of rookies play in the NFL, and I've seen a lot of rookies get better in the NFL. But I've been disappointed in our rookie thus far. Doesn't mean I don't think he won't/can't improve, because I'm sure he will. But at the same time, I do have questions on if he's really as good as advertised coming into the draft. As of right now, I personally don't think he is. But I honestly DO hope he's evertyything we hoped for...because we will need him to be.

[Ravage!!!]

Maybe Portis will come back to Denver next season after Shanahan takes over in Washington (can't believe he would actually go to washington). We know Portis won't be wanted there and some of the Denver fans actually liked him.

[claymore]

Moreno is not the problem with this team. Nor its running woes.

[underrated29]

See my sig. It says it all and its been there since our 5th or 6th win. Siince before we started losing.

[Superchop 7]

I don't seem to recall Payton or Sanders having a line either.

Tatum Bell got 5.7 yards per carry last year.

Naw......couldn't be the back.......no way.

[CoachChaz]

I don't seem to recall Payton or Sanders having a line either.

Tatum Bell got 5.7 yards per carry last year.

Naw......couldn't be the back.......no way.

Yeah...that makes sense. The first name I think of after Payton and Sanders is Moreno as well. Are you ******* serious?

Bell averaged 5.7. Funny how the numbers are always used to promote the argument. In the off-season people said his numbers were inflated because we always had to pass and people didnt defend the run. Now all of the sudden, he's played out to be a superstar.

This O-line, play-calling, rb argument has officially gone beyond sane argument.

[silkamilkamonico]

I don't seem to recall Payton or Sanders having a line either.

Tatum Bell got 5.7 yards per carry last year.

Naw......couldn't be the back.......no way.

Naw...couldn't be the system....no way. It's not like the RB's in Denver have been thriving for years, and then going to other teams and failing miserably.

[Northman]

I agreed with that. Sure, the line has it's issues, but it cant all beblamed on them. Moreno has to accept a portion of the blame. But I think Woody has a problem realizing the same thing that alot of others around here cant seem to grasp.

He's a ******* rookie. Why do we expect him to be the icon of perfection already?

Moreno does do a lot of dancing back there.

[broncohead]

Moreno is fine imo. He makes mistakes as a rookie but most of the blame goes to the OL. What are defenders doing in the backfield anyway?

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

That has got to be one of the stupidest articles i've read relating to football all year.
WOW

[Buff]

I hated Woody's column about starting Simms. I hated his column about the Steeler fans in Invesco...

But it's hard to argue with anything he wrote here.

[tomjonesrocks]

Totally agree with the article. With all the needs on this team Moreno being drafted where he was was a head scratcher. In order to justify that draft spot on this team he needed to really show he is something special. He has not done that. You can blame the line, but Moreno has not shown the flashes that I would have expected to see by now. He's been stopped by good and bad defenses alike.

At this point the naysayers on Moreno are right. An average RB drafted at that draft position is a huge draft blunder. I hope the guy justifies McDaniels faith next season, but I'm not sure at all the potential is there for him to ever be a top back in this league.

[topscribe]

Paige is a scmuck. I'll agree Moreno is a rookie and is making mistakes, but this article completely sucks.

Beat me to it. Woody writes like he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Probably because he doesn't . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Totally agree with the article. With all the needs on this team Moreno being drafted where he was was a head scratcher. In order to justify that draft spot on this team he needed to really show he is something special. He has not done that. You can blame the line, but Moreno has not shown the flashes that I would have expected to see by now. He's been stopped by good and bad defenses alike.

At this point the naysayers on Moreno are right. An average RB drafted at that draft position is a huge draft blunder. I hope the guy justifies McDaniels faith next season, but I'm not sure at all the potential is there for him to ever be a top back in this league.

considering that Bucky has out performed him game in and out this was a wasted picked IMHO when we had other needs.. NT and DE's


but lets hope he turns out to be a better RB down the line.. when they address that issue..

[topscribe]

I don't seem to recall Payton or Sanders having a line either.

Tatum Bell got 5.7 yards per carry last year.

Naw......couldn't be the back.......no way.

Pity's sake, Chop, you brought up the names of arguably two the the three
G.O.A.T. RBs in history (along with Jim Brown). That is the standard you're
holding for Moreno?

Regarding last year: This is not the same line. Wiegmann and Hamilton obviously
are not the same. Hochstein is a career backup. So is Polumbus. And Harris is
not in there.

Plus the fact they are all trying to get used to a new system.

I'm not excusing Moreno. He needs to stop dancing, as he occasionally does
behind the line. But let's be reasonable. :nod:

-----

[SmilinAssasSin27]

He does dance more than I like, but our passing game also doesn't keep the defense very honest. The OLine needs converted to a more power running group, but we also need to at least TRY to go deep on occasion so that we can open up some runs.

[Buff]

I thought Sandy Clough took a good call on this last week:

Knowshon isn't great at anything, but he's pretty good at everything. The question is, did he warrant the #12 pick? The answer is, probably not... You'd like to draft a GREAT back with a top 15 pick, not a good one... But that doesn't necessarily make him a bust either. It's pretty unfair to classify him as such. He's a solid back, but probably should have gone at the beginning of the 2nd rd.

[topscribe]

I thought Sandy Clough took a good call on this last week:

Knowshon isn't great at anything, but he's pretty good at everything. The question is, did he warrant the #12 pick? The answer is, probably not... You'd like to draft a GREAT back with a top 15 pick, not a good one... But that doesn't necessarily make him a bust either. It's pretty unfair to classify him as such. He's a solid back, but probably should have gone at the beginning of the 2nd rd.

I believe I heard that very same description of Terrell Davis: "Not great at any
one thing but good at everything." That's encouraging, isn't it?

-----

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Give him some time and an offense that can accentuate his abilities. He was GREAT at Georgia. That's why he went #12. He can be a stud. Dude has 900 yards while sharing the rock almost 50/50 w/ Bucky. He need like 55 yards per game the rest of the way to get 1000. Hardly a bust IMHO.

[Buff]

I believe I heard that very same description of Terrell Davis: "Not great at any
one thing but good at everything." That's encouraging, isn't it?

-----

Easy there, Super Chopscribe... Let's not bring out the comparisons to the G.O.A.T. just yet. ;)

[tomjonesrocks]

I believe I heard that very same description of Terrell Davis: "Not great at any
one thing but good at everything." That's encouraging, isn't it?

-----

TD had some of the best field vision of any runner ever to play the game. So I wouldn't agree with those that say that.

I will also say that 70 percent of the time when you hear about a runner "he doesn't have great speed, but he has (blank)" it usually means the guy is headed for a lackluster career. No way I spend a early first round pick on a runner with average or below average speed no matter what the other skills supposedly are.

That said, I thought Moreno was supposed to be a top-notch blocker. He's not this either--he gets burned on blocking assignments all the time. Really disappointing.

[topscribe]

Easy there, Super Chopscribe... Let's not bring out the comparisons to the G.O.A.T. just yet. ;)

Damn. I'm not "comparing" anybody to anybody. I only said the same thing
was said of both.

What's the deal, anyway? If I say I'm the same height as Brandon Marshall,
am I comparing myself to him as a receiver? Geez.



TD had some of the best field vision of any runner ever to play the game. So I wouldn't agree with those that say that.

I will also say that 70 percent of the time when you hear about a runner "he doesn't have great speed, but he has (blank)" it usually means the guy is headed for a lackluster career. No way I spend a early first round pick on a runner with average or below average speed no matter what the other skills supposedly are.

That said, I thought Moreno was supposed to be a top-notch blocker. He's not this either--he gets burned on blocking assignments all the time. Really disappointing.

The guy who actually said that was a guy who blocked for TD for several
years: Schlereth.

But actually, Moreno is faster in the 40 than was Davis. TD was, in fact, one
of those to whom you I've heard said, "doesn't have great speed, but . . . "
But I just go back to what TD himself said about Moreno: "very fast on the
football field."

This is not to imply that I'm making Moreno the next TD (for Buff's sake). I'm
just commenting on some things I've read and heard . . .

:tsk:

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I have been a little disappointed with Moreno, but it is hard to get positive yards when your offensive line is getting pushed back into your face and you are having to dodge the defense as soon as you get the hand-off.

Alfred Williams addressed this yesterday, and said it would not matter if Hillis was in there. Stink also said the same thing.

[spikerman]

Moreno definitely hasn't lived up to the #12 pick, but on the bright side he's been a hell of a lot better than Ayers. I guess that doesn't say much for the Broncos' last draft.

[Buff]

Damn. I'm not "comparing" anybody to anybody. I only said the same thing
was said of both.

What's the deal, anyway? If I say I'm the same height as Brandon Marshall,
am I comparing myself to him as a receiver? Geez.




The guy who actually said that was a guy who blocked for TD for several
years: Schlereth.

But actually, Moreno is faster in the 40 than was Davis. TD was, in fact, one
of those to whom you I've heard said, "doesn't have great speed, but . . . "
But I just go back to what TD himself said about Moreno: "very fast on the
football field."

This is not to imply that I'm making Moreno the next TD (for Buff's sake). I'm
just commenting on some things I've read and heard . . .

:tsk:

-----

I remember when you used to have a sense of humor...

[topscribe]

Alfred Williams addressed this yesterday, and said it would not matter if Hillis was in there. Stink also said the same thing.

And so did Elway. (http://cbs4denver.com/sports/elway.john.loss.2.1384701.html)

-----

[topscribe]

I remember when you used to have a sense of humor...

Not today. Sorry.

Guess I'd better log off . . .

-----

[Dean]

Moreno does some things that I don't like but he is a freshman in the bigs. He shouldn't have to go from training camp to the #1 back. He isn't ready.

There are some things I would like to start to see out of him in the next two games. I would like to see him beat the first tackler now and again (maybe put his head down and attempt to run over someone). That spin move that he does while still behind the line of scrimmage I hope gets forgotten by next year.

I think that McKid is trying to prove that he can instantly carry the team and Moreno isn't there, yet. He is being forced into a situation that he isn't ready for. Particularly now that the blocking has regressed.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Speaking of training camp...didn't he miss his due to the foot injury? Cut the kid some slack.

[Lonestar]

Moreno definitely hasn't lived up to the #12 pick, but on the bright side he's been a hell of a lot better than Ayers. I guess that doesn't say much for the Broncos' last draft.


I think what spurred Josh into taking him was the rumor that SAN was looking to him to replace LT when he retires....

From what I have seen of ayers he is doing pretty good..

it is a hard transition from playing hands down DE every snap to OLB where you are actually working in space and in some situations covering a RB, TE or WR.. HUGE adjustment for a down in the dirt DE that in the past ONLY rushed the passer or covered running plays..

I have seen him cause a disruption on his side to the point that Doom has made a sack of two..

I think it will take a couple of years for him to bloom.. IIRC Mayock said in 3 years that he would be the superstar on defense of that draft.. I'll wait to see if it happens before throwing him to the dogs....

[Lonestar]

Speaking of training camp...didn't he miss his due to the foot injury? Cut the kid some slack.

IIRC he missed it because he wanted more money, and THEN was injured..

[Overtime]

compared to the likes of

Mike Bell
Mike Anderson
Clinton Portis
Quentin Griffin
Tatum Bell
Olandis Gary

Knowshown is a ******* joke.

[Bozo Jr.]

compared to the likes of

Mike Bell
Mike Anderson
Clinton Portis
Quentin Griffin
Tatum Bell
Olandis Gary

Knowshown is a ******* joke.

Oh brother!:rolleyes: The rookie is on the verge of breaking 1000 yards in his first season. Thats more than any team could ever hope for out of a rookie RB.

[Medford Bronco]

Naw...couldn't be the system....no way. It's not like the RB's in Denver have been thriving for years, and then going to other teams and failing miserably.

Tatum Bell was so awesome in Det:laugh:

[Medford Bronco]

compared to the likes of

Mike Bell
Mike Anderson
Clinton Portis
Quentin Griffin
Tatum Bell
Olandis Gary

Knowshown is a ******* joke.


He is much better than Quentin Griffin and is
better than Bell. most likely will be better than Gary.

Anderson was a different type back but had 2 good years
Mike Bell sucked here and benefits from having the best offense in the NFL
Portis is better, agreed

T Bell was a hr hitter. He was okay but Moreno will have a better career.

It is the line as well. They suck the last 4 or 5 games.
They also miss Buckhalter as a change of pace as well. This years Tatum Bell but better IMO

[Lonestar]

He is much better than Quentin Griffin and is
better than Bell. most likely will be better than Gary.

Anderson was a different type back but had 2 good years
Mike Bell sucked here and benefits from having the best offense in the NFL
Portis is better, agreed

T Bell was a hr hitter. He was okay but Moreno will have a better career.

It is the line as well. They suck the last 4 or 5 games.
They also miss Buckhalter as a change of pace as well. This years Tatum Bell but better IMO


not so sure he is or will be better than Mike Bell, as he is doing well this year down in NO..

his rookie year here he only started in 3 games but was a TD machine.. for an UDFA not bad..

http://www.nfl.com/players/mikebell/profile?id=BEL512977


tater is and always been a loser.. IIRC was billed as he could take it to the house but rarely, if ever did..

[broncophan]

Tatum Bell was so awesome in Det:laugh:

Tatum was the best at stealing luggage in Detroit...

[broncofaninfla]

As Moreno's game keeps slipping, Donald Brown and B Wells are getting stronger.

[gw2525]

Moreno is a bona fide mega star who will get his 1000 yards even though he has no blocking up front....McDaniels reminds me of dopey Lou Saban trying to run Floyd Little up the gut in his rookie season...Little gained a grand total of 232 yards rushing that first season...neither McDaniels or Saban knew how to maximize the potential of their talents....as much as I despise Shanahan at least he had a play book and knew how to call a football game...all this crying about Moreno averaging only 4 yards a carry.....Brandon Marshall is averaging 11 yards a catch but noone seems to care abothat...this wide receiver should be averaging 16-18 yards/catch with his running ability. Both are playmakers and could be difference makers if we had an Offensive plan to match their abilities....

[broncofaninfla]

Moreno is a bona fide mega star who will get his 1000 yards even though he has no blocking up front....McDaniels reminds me of dopey Lou Saban trying to run Floyd Little up the gut in his rookie season...Little gained a grand total of 232 yards rushing that first season...neither McDaniels or Saban knew how to maximize the potential of their talents....as much as I despise Shanahan at least he had a play book and knew how to call a football game...all this crying about Moreno averaging only 4 yards a carry.....Brandon Marshall is averaging 11 yards a catch but noone seems to care abothat...this wide receiver should be averaging 16-18 yards/catch with his running ability. Both are playmakers and could be difference makers if we had an Offensive plan to match their abilities....

I agree about Marshall but not Moreno. Mega stars don't go down with arm tackles or have poor vision like Moreno.

[titan]

I'm not ready to give up on Moreno. So far he shows to me he can be a solid nfl back. In the NY Giant game, in particular, he showed me the ability to make quick cuts and find holes that weren't there to start. I haven't seen this as much in other games, but that night one of the announcers even compared some of his moves to Barry Sanders.

Moreno has also shown good hands at times (the td catch against the Cowboys for one). What he doesn't have is breakaway speed. Some great bronco backs of the past (like Floyd Little) didn't have breakaway speed either.

I'm hoping with a full offseason conditioning program and training camp we'll see a better Knowshon in year two. Back in the 70's Broncos #1 draft choice Otis Armstrong didn't do much in his first year, then in his 2nd year led the league in rushing.

[Nomad]

Rookie this year, sophmore slump next year, so he better have it together by the third year....no excuses!! Hopefully Buck can keep carrying the load until then and stay healthy enough to do so!!

[Ravage!!!]

Rookie this year, sophmore slump next year, so he better have it together by the third year....no excuses!! Hopefully Buck can keep carrying the load until then and stay healthy enough to do so!!

if it takes him two years to justify his 1st round pick at RB, then thats not a good thing at all. RB is the easiest position in the NFL. THIS better be his slump.. imo.

[Nomad]

if it takes him two years to justify his 1st round pick at RB, then thats not a good thing at all. RB is the easiest position in the NFL. THIS better be his slump.. imo.

I was being a wisenheimer:D!!

I expected a little more from the fella even though he's a rookie (1st round that is) and the blockers are not doing their job very well!

[topscribe]

I'm not ready to give up on Moreno. So far he shows to me he can be a solid nfl back. In the NY Giant game, in particular, he showed me the ability to make quick cuts and find holes that weren't there to start. I haven't seen this as much in other games, but that night one of the announcers even compared some of his moves to Barry Sanders.

Moreno has also shown good hands at times (the td catch against the Cowboys for one). What he doesn't have is breakaway speed. Some great bronco backs of the past (like Floyd Little) didn't have breakaway speed either.

I'm hoping with a full offseason conditioning program and training camp we'll see a better Knowshon in year two. Back in the 70's Broncos #1 draft choice Otis Armstrong didn't do much in his first year, then in his 2nd year led the league in rushing.

Good post. TD didn't have "breakaway" speed, either, but he was regarded as
one of the best two backs, along with Barry Sanders, when he was playing.
Sanders, BTW, wasn't a Sayers-type burner, either.

I believe some of us have our fingers on the panic button. We need to
understand that Moreno, Ayers, and Smith are rookies.

At the time of D-Will's death, for instance, many thought he was on his way
to becoming a solid corner--maybe even a star. Yet he was torched many
times in his rookie year. You already mentioned Armstrong.

Moreno has been somewhat inconsistent, but we seem to forget that, as a
rookie, he is headed toward a 1,000-yard season, and that is while splitting
carries much of the season.

I have high hopes for KM. I believe next year we are going to see crescendos
in the performances of all the players we have been questioning, viz., Moreno,
Ayers, and Orton (and watch McBean, too, BTW).

-----

[Dean]

Just curious, Top, what have you seen in McBean? Earlier in the year he showed next to no pass rush but was okay versus the run. Recently, he has been gashed by the run game. :questionmark:

[topscribe]

Just curious, Top, what have you seen in McBean? Earlier in the year he showed next to no pass rush but was okay versus the run. Recently, he has been gashed by the run game. :questionmark:

I know. He's still developing. I see athleticism in him.

I'm only saying "watch." I'm hoping he breaks out after camp because he has
seemed to show the innate ability.

If not, then we're going to need another DE, too. :(

-----

[Ravage!!!]

weren't some jumping up and down, saying that this team would no longer have the late season break-downs because there would no longer be the powder puff TCs? We were supposed to be in such great shape and well conditioned. We were supposed to be tougher, meaner, and more physical because of our "increased contact" in training camp.

So how is it that moreno needs ANOTHER offseason conditioning program?

[Nomad]

I'm not ready to give up on Moreno.

No one is giving up on him, but expectations will always be high when the draft gurus hype up a player and they're taken at the top of their position!!

[rcsodak]

I have been a little disappointed with Moreno, but it is hard to get positive yards when your offensive line is getting pushed back into your face and you are having to dodge the defense as soon as you get the hand-off.

Mike, can you then tell all of us, then, WHY the same can't be said about Buckhalter?

Moreno sucks right now.

No ands/ifs/buts about it.

He needs to sit, and Hillis run the rock, until Bucky heals up.

[rcsodak]

weren't some jumping up and down, saying that this team would no longer have the late season break-downs because there would no longer be the powder puff TCs? We were supposed to be in such great shape and well conditioned. We were supposed to be tougher, meaner, and more physical because of our "increased contact" in training camp.

So how is it that moreno needs ANOTHER offseason conditioning program?

Because somebody thinks they can hold out instead of sweating/hitting/learning like the rest of the big boys, maybe?

[Ravage!!!]

Because somebody thinks they can hold out instead of sweating/hitting/learning like the rest of the big boys, maybe?

You mean the WR in San Fran?

Whats the excuse for the rest of the team?

[Dzone]

3/5ths of the offensive line is not blocking for shit. What a waste of talent. Moreno gets stuffed as soon as he's handed the ball. Orton is throwing from a wet paper bag pocket.

[nevcraw]

Moreno needs to hit the weight room, bulk up a bit and learn the age old lesson of patience.
He is a bit of tweener back at this point with out showing excellence in any area. He has not been helped by the interior line nor the scheme and the super predictable play calling.
IIRC - LT and Tiki also had issues in year 1 - so a stud back he still could become.

[horsepig]

Good post. TD didn't have "breakaway" speed, either, but he was regarded as
one of the best two backs, along with Barry Sanders, when he was playing.
Sanders, BTW, wasn't a Sayers-type burner, either.

I believe some of us have our fingers on the panic button. We need to
understand that Moreno, Ayers, and Smith are rookies.

At the time of D-Will's death, for instance, many thought he was on his way
to becoming a solid corner--maybe even a star. Yet he was torched many
times in his rookie year. You already mentioned Armstrong.

Moreno has been somewhat inconsistent, but we seem to forget that, as a
rookie, he is headed toward a 1,000-yard season, and that is while splitting
carries much of the season.

I have high hopes for KM. I believe next year we are going to see crescendos
in the performances of all the players we have been questioning, viz., Moreno,
Ayers, and Orton (and watch McBean, too, BTW).

-----

Finger, Hell! I'm leaning on it with my ####### elbow.

[dogfish]

As Moreno's game keeps slipping, Donald Brown and B Wells are getting stronger.

donald brown has been hurt for most of the past two months-- the guy has a grand total of 13 carries for 54 yards and no TDs since the first of november!

:lol: :rofl:

please explain to me how that is "getting stronger?"

i've been one of knowshon's staunchest supporters, and even i have to admit that i haven't been impressed with his performance recently. . . but you're REALLY reaching by suggesting brown's outperforming knowshon when the guy has 59 carries for the year and has missed five of the last eight weeks. . . i do think KM's facing tough circumstances between the blocking, the play calling and the consistently stacked LOS, and statistically he's been productive for a rookie splitting carries-- but he certainly hasn't been anything resembling dominant, and i know he's capable of a LOT more. . . and i still expect to see it from him next season. . .



weren't some jumping up and down, saying that this team would no longer have the late season break-downs because there would no longer be the powder puff TCs? We were supposed to be in such great shape and well conditioned. We were supposed to be tougher, meaner, and more physical because of our "increased contact" in training camp.

So how is it that moreno needs ANOTHER offseason conditioning program?

maybe because he missed part of this one and pretty much all of preseason?

come one rav, you shouldn't need me to hold your hand on this football 101 stuff-- step your game up! :D

in all seriousness though, i don't see how you can be anything but happy to see an end to shanahan's club med camps and the pillowy-soft teams we fielded in recent years. . . you've watched our games this year, can you deny that the defense as a whole has played with an entirely different level of intensity and physicality than the past few years? granted, they've had a few bad games mixed in, and that shouldn't be surprising from a unit with a fairly underwhelming overall talent level, but for the most part this D has been way nastier than the pansy units we ran out there the last couple of seasons. . . if anything, i think age might be catching up to some of them, which was a big concern of mine in the offseason when we put together such an old defense. . . i said then that i thought we might fade down the stretch if guys like alphonso smith, darcell mcbath, chris baker and spencer larsen weren't able or ready to make some contributions down the stretch, and for the most part they haven't been. . .

[Ravage!!!]

maybe because he missed part of this one and pretty much all of preseason?

come one rav, you shouldn't need me to hold your hand on this football 101 stuff-- step your game up! :D

in all seriousness though, i don't see how you can be anything but happy to see an end to shanahan's club med camps and the pillowy-soft teams we fielded in recent years. . . you've watched our games this year, can you deny that the defense as a whole has played with an entirely different level of intensity and physicality than the past few years? granted, they've had a few bad games mixed in, and that shouldn't be surprising from a unit with a fairly underwhelming overall talent level, but for the most part this D has been way nastier than the pansy units we ran out there the last couple of seasons. . . if anything, i think age might be catching up to some of them, which was a big concern of mine in the offseason when we put together such an old defense. . . i said then that i thought we might fade down the stretch if guys like alphonso smith, darcell mcbath, chris baker and spencer larsen weren't able or ready to make some contributions down the stretch, and for the most part they haven't been. . .

heh.. welll I saw a young receiver come in 9 games into the season after holding out and do just fine. So if moreno wasn't keeping himself in shape through that small 'holdout'... or hasn't gotten in shape in the 16+ weeks since, then it has NOTHING to do with the conditioning program he missed!!

As far as the rest.. yes.. the defense was stronger at the beginning of the season than it is now. The defense we have now is stronger than last years....but players and DC/scheme are completely different as well.

Considering how our Offense has faded, our defense isn't as strong as it was earlier in the year... I don't see how the actual 'club med' rumor is true at all. I don't see any difference as far as THAT goes. The defense has been more staunch for sure, but I think that comes from the DC coaching than the off-season TC workouts. We also have had players have the hamstring problems just like last year, despite having all the extra conditioning.

Plus... if this is the kind of offensive production we get from all this "extra conditioning" in the offseason... then I can pass on that too.

I guess what I'm saying.. considering the players that have missed TCs and continue to play at high levels (throughout the NFL), I think its over-rated. The tenacity of the defense is on the coaching.. so is the 'tenacity' of our offense. :beer:

[rcsodak]

3/5ths of the offensive line is not blocking for shit. What a waste of talent. Moreno gets stuffed as soon as he's handed the ball. Orton is throwing from a wet paper bag pocket.

Not to be repetitive....


....but....


....why can't the same be said when bucky has the ball? :rolleyes:

[rcsodak]

heh.. welll I saw a young receiver come in 9 games into the season after holding out and do just fine. So if moreno wasn't keeping himself in shape through that small 'holdout'... or hasn't gotten in shape in the 16+ weeks since, then it has NOTHING to do with the conditioning program he missed!!

As far as the rest.. yes.. the defense was stronger at the beginning of the season than it is now. The defense we have now is stronger than last years....but players and DC/scheme are completely different as well.

Considering how our Offense has faded, our defense isn't as strong as it was earlier in the year... I don't see how the actual 'club med' rumor is true at all. I don't see any difference as far as THAT goes. The defense has been more staunch for sure, but I think that comes from the DC coaching than the off-season TC workouts. We also have had players have the hamstring problems just like last year, despite having all the extra conditioning.

Plus... if this is the kind of offensive production we get from all this "extra conditioning" in the offseason... then I can pass on that too.

I guess what I'm saying.. considering the players that have missed TCs and continue to play at high levels (throughout the NFL), I think its over-rated. The tenacity of the defense is on the coaching.. so is the 'tenacity' of our offense. :beer:

RB's touch the ball a hell of a lot more times than a WR does. And take more of a beating, with running into 300+lb dudes, and blocking blitzing lb's.

There's really no comparison between the two.

[Ravage!!!]

RB's touch the ball a hell of a lot more times than a WR does. And take more of a beating, with running into 300+lb dudes, and blocking blitzing lb's.

There's really no comparison between the two.

Yeah. you are right. WRs don't run down the field on every play, make blocks, and /or take a beating as well. Noooooo comparison whatsoever. :coffee:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

The offense as a whole isn't producing. It really hasn't since the Baltimore defense showed the league the blueprint to beat us. Moreno is part of that offense. Hell, I don't get game film, just the game on TV sometimes and I could gameplan to stop the offense.

In short, stack the LOS and stop Moreno/Buck, bring pressure up the middle in Orton's face on third down because he's worthless outside of a perfect pocket, and play bump coverage on the outside to limit the WRs release and throw off the timing of our quick passing game. It's not hard to beat our scheme right now.

We only run like 5 offensive plays and of those plays, 3 are out of one formation and 2 are out of the other. Anyone who's seen a Broncos game knows the play before the snap. Not too hard to defend the predictable. Shit, if other teams triple teamed Marshall, we'd have absolutely no passing game to speak of.

Moreno is doing what he can and he'll get better, but without the threat of an intermediate to deep passing attack, teams just play run all day. There is no difference right now between our running game and the short passing game and both can be nullified using the same defensive scheme and front. Going 3 or 4 wide doesn't fool anyone. Everyone knows that it'll be a draw up the gut or a bubble screen to Marshall. Most teams just leave their base defense of 3 or 4 LBs in when we spread it out because even LBs can cover 5 yards downfield. Everyone knows we won't/can't go deep. It makes their job easy to get to Moreno when everyone is looking run or short pass on every play. This is a scheme/playcalling problem, not a Moreno problem.

[Mike]

compared to the likes of

Mike Bell
Mike Anderson
Clinton Portis
Quentin Griffin
Tatum Bell
Olandis Gary

Knowshown is a ******* joke.

You forgot Droughns. We all know that their production had nothing to do with the system Denver ran either. :coffee:

[JDL]

Moreno is fine imo. He makes mistakes as a rookie but most of the blame goes to the OL. What are defenders doing in the backfield anyway?

Because maybe we don't push defenses back with deeper passes and teams load the box??? Just a thought...

Even when there are holes though... Moreno is missing them... he far too often fails to recognize a hole and just slams it up into a crowd to try to gain something... that's not good. Little bit of what Tatum Bell did a lot of during his time. Buck has no problem finding those cutback lanes because as a vet he knows that a mere crease ... IS a hole in the NFL... Moreno is looking for huge gaps and you just aren't going to find those.... so he gets big time happy feet due to his indecision... hopefully as he gets more experienced he will get better. But, RBs are generally what they are when they come into the league... not a ton of learning to do running-wise... more pass blocking and ball security... every time Beanie Wells touches the ball you see a glimpse of something special... but he has ball security issues... still, Moreno needs to resolve his indecisions, he does have some nice moves, but just has to learn to get big gains and find the holes... I always liked him, but not in the type of run blocking scheme we're running now... zone blocking? Stud... pulling guards letting free defenders into the backfield (due to overload of defenders - see no deep passing) just really messes with him.

We'll see though... he definitely bares some of the blame though.

[JDL]

Not to be repetitive....


....but....


....why can't the same be said when bucky has the ball? :rolleyes:

Buck, cuts back AGAINST the grain and to the backside...avoiding all the defenders blowing up the front-side blocking and making those defenders pay for overpursuing... Moreno doesn't... simple.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Because maybe we don't push defenses back with deeper passes and teams load the box??? Just a thought...

Even when there are holes though... Moreno is missing them... he far too often fails to recognize a hole and just slams it up into a crowd to try to gain something... that's not good. Little bit of what Tatum Bell did a lot of during his time. Buck has no problem finding those cutback lanes because as a vet he knows that a mere crease ... IS a hole in the NFL... Moreno is looking for huge gaps and you just aren't going to find those.... so he gets big time happy feet due to his indecision... hopefully as he gets more experienced he will get better. But, RBs are generally what they are when they come into the league... not a ton of learning to do running-wise... more pass blocking and ball security... every time Beanie Wells touches the ball you see a glimpse of something special... but he has ball security issues... still, Moreno needs to resolve his indecisions, he does have some nice moves, but just has to learn to get big gains and find the holes... I always liked him, but not in the type of run blocking scheme we're running now... zone blocking? Stud... pulling guards letting free defenders into the backfield (due to overload of defenders - see no deep passing) just really messes with him.

We'll see though... he definitely bares some of the blame though.

Knowshon runs pretty well normally and has some good runs between the 20's. Buck has run well in those same situations, but you've got to remeber that McD uses Knowshon almost exclusively as our short yardage back. 3rd and 1 or 2 and red zone running is completely different than between the 20's. His ypc suffers a lot from trying to pound the ball inside the 5 or on 3rd and short when everyone is looking run and just loads the box. The lack of a passing game hurts our running game, also.

Should Knowshon be more decisive? Yes. Right now, I think he's just trying to do what he's told and run to the hole that's "supposed to" be there. Like Orton, he doesn't improvise and find those back-door plays very often. I think our entire offense is to blame, not just Moreno. The run blocking has been sub-par at best. I don't know how many times I've seen him make it back to the LOS after being hit 3 yds deep in the backfield. That's at least promising for the future. He always runs hard and doesn't shy away from contact which is nice to see. Once the line can do a better job and his reads and vision improve, I think he'll be a very good starting RB.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Buck, cuts back AGAINST the grain and to the backside...avoiding all the defenders blowing up the front-side blocking and making those defenders pay for overpursuing... Moreno doesn't... simple.

That type of running just doesn't work on short yardage and goal line stuff (where Moreno gets a LOT of carries) when the defense has stacked the line and is looking run. On the carries Buck has gotten in those situations, he hasn't really been any more successful than Moreno.