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View Full Version : Time To Vent: I Hate This Offense. Period.



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getlynched47
12-21-2009, 12:33 AM
Let it be known, I have never been a huge Josh McDaniels fan...but I was starting to come around a little bit after our 6-0 fluke start. Little did I know, after our bye week our true Denver Bronco team has came, going 2-6 since that point.

That being said, I have tried to be patient and patient with this abomination of an offense, and I've snapped. I hate this offense and I wish it was never brought here to Denver.

Let's go over some stats, shall we?

Total Yards: 17th
3rd Down Conversion: 22nd
4th Down Conversion: 30th
Scoring: 20th
Red Zone Scoring: 29th

These are the stats that are important for this offense. In addition, I wish there was a stat for stupid playcalling because we would be near the top with that one. I'll get into that in a little bit.

What the hell is wrong with this offense? Wasn't McDaniels' focus to improve our red zone offense because the 2008 Denver Broncos gained a lot of yards but either Jay Cutler and the offense would turn it over, or we would settle for field goals. He vowed to improve our scoring offense, but hasn't come through. You could argue all you want about players executing, but in the end it all comes back to the coach putting in those players who might not be executing, or just having stupid play calls.

For example, short-yardage has been ridiculous. I don't know what McDaniels is thinking. He keeps doing something that clearly hasn't worked and won't work. He keeps pressing to MAKE it work, but he's costing us with his stupid play-calling and personel in short yardage and long yardage. For goodness sakes, what the hell would we lose trying Peyton Hillis at short yardage when Knowshon Moreno clearly isnt' effective doing it?

And in long yardage, McDaniels calls a freakin screen on 3rd and 15? Kyle Orton can throw the deep ball, but the play calling is limiting our entire offense.

I'm sick and tired of: 5 yard hitch, bubble screen, crossing route, bubble screen, hitch, screen, screen, slant, etc. It's not the QB, it's the play calling and the stupid system.

Another thing that really pisses me off is how McDaniels is simply unwilling to get the ball to our playmakers. We have a plethora of playmakers...USE THEM!!! Everywhere I read, everything I observe, it's that Eddie Royal, Tony Scheffler, Daniel Graham, Brandon Stokley, and Peyton Hillis are being UNDERUTILIZED!! When the hell is it going to get into McDaniels head that he can't simply rely on Brandon Marshall, Jabar Gaffney and Knowshon Moreno?!?! We have the weapons, might as well use them.

Conform the offense to the weapons you have, not conform the weapons to this boring-ass offense. Utilize our weapons, not neglect them. Is that too much to ask for?

Another thing, that Clady screen. Really? You want to jeopardize arguably our best offensive player for kicks? Is it worth risking a huge injury to Ryan Clady for a stupid play like that? Seriously, I would expect better from the guy that orchestrated the 2007 New England Patriots offense.

Sadly, I realize that as long as McDaniels is our head coach and offensive coordinator that this stupid offense will remain intact. But is it too much to ask that we STOP DOING CRAP THAT ISN'T WORKING!?!? McDaniels is known for being an offensive genius, guru, mastermind, etc. Show me why.

And no, the "it's a new system" excuse doesn't fly any longer. We've gone 14 games and I haven't seen improvement.

Fix our damn scoring offense and stop making excuses. Loss after loss after loss, McDaniels' excuse is that "We need to execute better". Is it execution? Or is it this stupid offensive system?

Reality is that we're 2-6 after starting off the season 6-0, and our season depends on winning these next two games. The Eagles are probably one the toughest team we have faced on our rocky road, and we need a win or else our season is toast.

Phew. Venting felt so good. If you read through all of this, you're a champion and I :salute: you. I look forward to having a great discussion regarding this topic. Let's keep one thing in mind: It doesn't bother me if you disagree with me. Let's discuss. But don't attack me. Attack the ideas.

titan
12-21-2009, 12:43 AM
"Kyle Orton can throw the deep ball, but the play calling is limiting our entire offense."

Lost in the disappointing finish was Orton's throw on the last play of the game- that was impressive! (threading the needle on a 39 yard pass). I agree the Broncos aren't using the deep pass enough.

sneakers
12-21-2009, 12:45 AM
"Kyle Orton can throw the deep ball, but the play calling is limiting our entire offense."

Lost in the disappointing finish was Orton's throw on the last play of the game- that was impressive! (threading the needle on a 39 yard pass). I agree the Broncos aren't using the deep pass enough.

Hahaha! Right! I did feel a little excited to see the ball thrown that far by a Bronco QB this year.

Overtime
12-21-2009, 12:55 AM
we'll be fine if we get a real QB who can move the ball down the field efficiently, and a few O-linemen. everything else is in place on offense.


defense needs much improvement, but we're not far off.

Orton has to go. Time to groom Brandstater.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 12:56 AM
Brand will NEVER be the starting QB of this team. Mark my words on that. Never.

Its defintitely time to get another QB, but lets quit this pipe dream about a 6th round pick simply because he's on the team.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 12:59 AM
Hahaha! Right! I did feel a little excited to see the ball thrown that far by a Bronco QB this year.

Orton's two TD passes against Washington went 53 and 50 yards in the air, respectively.

Orton's "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half in the NE game went about 65 in the air.

The pass Marshall dropped in the Cincy game went about 50 yards in the air.

The fade TD to Marshall in the Indy game went about 42 yards on the air.

Oh yeah, Orton can throw them . . .

-----

GEM
12-21-2009, 01:03 AM
Ya know what I'm tired of.....Orton being the scapegoat for McDaniels joke of a system. He throws what is called. McDaniels has so many freaking training wheels on this offense, I'm surprised they gain anything during a 60 minute game. Orton has shown he can throw a long ball, but freakin McDaniels refuses to call the play.

We have a stubborn coach who instead of doing what is best for the team, chooses to limit what the player do just to prove his own points, to which he still fails miserably.

Ya know why everyone bitches about Hillis not getting touches? Why no one will shut up about it....because McDaniels refuses to give him a shot to even prove us wrong. Lamont freaking Jordan? That guy should be sitting at home on Sundays, he has no business in on ANY situation. Moreno? Dude needs to stop the hesitate and back pedal at the freaking line. Either find a hole to run through or get off the field. Without Bucky, our run game is a joke. Our Oline, where the hell have they gone?? Ohhhh yea....McDaniels changed the scheme that worked for them and refuses to scrap his pulling guard and power line bullshit, even though we don't have the freaking players for it.

Pigheadedness is killing us. McDaniels, check your effing ego at the tunnel and win the mother ******* game. Jerk.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 01:04 AM
What gets me is that, all the while Orton was completing 19/34 for 278 yards
and no INTs, the offensive line and defensive line were playing matador nearly
the whole game. And still, we have people calling for Orton's head . . . :confused:

If you want to bitch and moan, why don't you address the team's failures
instead of its strong points?

-----

GEM
12-21-2009, 01:15 AM
What gets me is that, all the while Orton was completing 19/34 for 278 yards
and no INTs, the offensive line and defensive line were playing matador nearly
the whole game. And still, we have people calling for Orton's head . . . :confused:

If you want to bitch and moan, why don't you address the team's failures
instead of its strong points?

-----

Top, it bugs the living hell out of me. I've been behind McDaniels all season. Hell I do what I can to get people back on board, but dammit, McD isn't helping. He's hurting this team. His playcalling is bland, you can call it before the guys line up. If people sitting at home can call every offensive play, does he not think defensive gurus will do the same? I'm so frustrated right now. Our star players are calling our offense mediocre, another is openly saying that if they aren't going to use him to send him somewhere else. My fear is that the coach is losing this locker room. :yardog:

I absolutely hate this shit.

getlynched47
12-21-2009, 01:19 AM
we'll be fine if we get a real QB who can move the ball down the field efficiently, and a few O-linemen. everything else is in place on offense.


defense needs much improvement, but we're not far off.

Orton has to go. Time to groom Brandstater.

So if we didn't have Orton, our offense would be better??? :laugh:

How about Chris Simms? Will that work for you?

It's not Orton, and people need to realize that.

"Everything else is in place on offense"

Just for this season, but afterwards Scheffler's gone, we lose all of our guards, maybe Stokley is finished, and if we don't re-sign Brandon Marshall he's gone to.

McDaniels needs to fix the offensive system and his play calling, because it isn't working.

To GEM: you are absolutely right. McDaniels is the most egotistical shit I have seen in a very long time. He's so damn stubborn that he wants to do it the way it worked in New England, even though it may not work here. His overconfidence and big ass ego get in the way of much of our success IMHO.

GEM
12-21-2009, 01:21 AM
Merry effing Christmas, Broncos fans. :yardog:

GEM
12-21-2009, 01:26 AM
Also...what have the Broncos done to piss off the officials? I mean, we couldn't buy a flag if we waved JaMarcus Russell's guaranteed bank account in front of them. :bitter:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 01:33 AM
Also...what have the Broncos done to piss off the officials? I mean, we couldn't buy a flag if we waved JaMarcus Russell's guaranteed bank account in front of them. :bitter:

WORST officiated gamed I've watched in all my years. Of ALL games, not just Denver's.

How many cheap shots did they put on Orton? Pass interferences? Face masks? Holding? Lined up in the neutral zone? And Goodman's PI? BULL-SHIT!

They should all be fired. :tsk:

Watchthemiddle
12-21-2009, 01:40 AM
Execution Execution Execution.

Everyone wants to blame the QB for not throwing deep......how about taking your eyes off of the QB and take a look at the O-line during a play.

Last week everyone wanted to blame Knowshon for not picking up the short yardage 3rd down plays.....how about taking your eyes off the RB and look at the o-line and watching the D shoot through the gaps un-touched.

Everyone wants to blame McDaniels for everything.....I agree on the play calling aspect ..it does seem bland, but let's not forget that this offense has been together for 7 months in a brand new system. I hate excuses, but sometimes you need to see the big picture and put things into perspective.

When Shanahan was here, he and his new QB's in HIS system got the 3 year pass treatment. "It takes 3 years for the QB to learn the system".....that is all we would hear about. Now, 7 months into McDaniels system HE SUCKS and he and Orton need to go!!

We have one of the brightest up and coming coaches in the league. I heard a quote from Carson Palmer this week saying something along the lines that he bets players LOVE to play for McDaniels. To get rid of him after one year and still at a chance to make the playoffs WITHOUT THE HELP OF OTHERS is a huge accomplishment for a Rookie coach considering what he took over.

LoyalSoldier
12-21-2009, 01:57 AM
It seems like since 2005 we can not get a complete team at all.

2006 1st half of the season = Offense stunk, Defense ruled
2006 2nd half of the season = Offense made improvements, Defense regressed
2007 = Offense was average, Defense was terrible
2008 = Offense was good, Defense was one of the worst the NFL had ever seen
2009 = Offense has been below average, Defense has been above average


We just can not seem to get the whole team to play good football all year long. It has been one side carrying the whole team.

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 04:57 AM
Someone said the offense has been together for 14 games. Yes and NO. How many games has harris been gone 4 or 5 now. What about KO with the dislocated finger and sprained ankle. How many games has one or more of the RB's been not up to speed. Hamilton has been replaced.

Now normaly those situations would be hinder a team that has been together for years but collectively they have slowed the got it and do not have to think about a playbecause it is automatic mode.

The players may"know" the playbook, but that extra fraction of a second they take to think before they do it makes a HUGE difference in the NFL.

Can Josh call a better game? I suspect he is making the calls based on his perception of what they can do not based on what he thinks they should.
Someone said players were going to bail because they are unhappy. So far I've not heard anything like that.

If they have said that then link its please.

Do I think Hillis should be used more YEP. I have always been a BIG fan of 220+ RB's.

So yes Josh get him in the game more. He just “might" surprise you with his attitude and play.

Orton is not the issuse it is a light in the loafers OLINE for the type of play required of them.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

claymore
12-21-2009, 05:46 AM
Im with Jr on this. Lets give Mcdaniels a chance. :drinking:

titan
12-21-2009, 06:09 AM
Taking a step back from the disappointing Oakland loss, I'd say this team still has personnel issues. Oakland dominated both lines and that is usually the team that wins.

I've supported McDaniels all along and even if the team finishes 9-7 it's still better than I expected given the tough schedule and the offseason turmoil. That said, my concern with McDaniels isn't with his playcalling. Give him the horses and I think he'll be ok. It's his drafting that has me worried.

Trading a future #1 for Alphonso Smith looks more and more like a bad decision. Right from the start Smith was small for the position but supposedly would make up for it with his ball hawking and coverage skills. I haven't seen it. Trading up for Richard Quinn, who was supposed to be a beast blocking, was questionable, too. Did we see Quinn against the Raiders in a game where the Broncos sorely needed some more beef up front? I don't remember seeing him - where were the 3 tight end sets especially on short yardage?

To be fair the other picks are looking better. Knowshon I give a passing grade to (despite his recent short yardage struggles) - I think he'll be ok with a full offseason and training camp. Ayers gets another OK grade after year 1. The rookie safeties look good (McBath and Bruton). And McKinley looks to have potential as a receiver and in the return game.

In free agency generally McDaniels did well. The defensive upgrades were much better than the many questionable defensive free agents Shanahan used to sign.

Still, the draft is the lifeblood of any team and I'm not convinced McDaniels is a good drafter after year 1. McDaniels draft system is the Patriot way - have fewer players on your board and get those players. Will McDaniels be as adept at drafting as the Patriots? Very much in question after year 1. He seemed to overpay for players, squandering picks to move up (for Smith and Quinn). He traded away from what is supposed to be a better draft year (2010) for a 2009 pick (Smith). His trading the Broncos #1 for Smith instead of the Bears pick will work out, but was a huge gamble.

I'm hoping McDaniels learns from his mistakes and we'll see a better draft this year. The Bears #1 pick has to be an impact player - can't afford to miss on that one. Shanahan was a brilliant offensive mind whose downfall was his poor drafts on the defensive side of the ball. McDaniels seems better at free agency than Mike so far, but his drafting is the big question for me.

broncofaninfla
12-21-2009, 07:10 AM
Ya know what I'm tired of.....Orton being the scapegoat for McDaniels joke of a system. He throws what is called. McDaniels has so many freaking training wheels on this offense, I'm surprised they gain anything during a 60 minute game. Orton has shown he can throw a long ball, but freakin McDaniels refuses to call the play.

We have a stubborn coach who instead of doing what is best for the team, chooses to limit what the player do just to prove his own points, to which he still fails miserably.

Ya know why everyone bitches about Hillis not getting touches? Why no one will shut up about it....because McDaniels refuses to give him a shot to even prove us wrong. Lamont freaking Jordan? That guy should be sitting at home on Sundays, he has no business in on ANY situation. Moreno? Dude needs to stop the hesitate and back pedal at the freaking line. Either find a hole to run through or get off the field. Without Bucky, our run game is a joke. Our Oline, where the hell have they gone?? Ohhhh yea....McDaniels changed the scheme that worked for them and refuses to scrap his pulling guard and power line bullshit, even though we don't have the freaking players for it.

Pigheadedness is killing us. McDaniels, check your effing ego at the tunnel and win the mother ******* game. Jerk.

My feelings exactly!

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 07:14 AM
I like the offense. I just don't think we have the pieces set to make it effective.

We can't score in the redzone because we can't run the ball, and in fear of turning the ball over, Orton throws the ball in the stands. That's what you get with an efficient QB who's afraid to turn the ball over.

I'm also sick and tired of Orton and his inability to make quick decisions. I can see why McDaniels feels handcuffed in calling offensive plays. The line isn't strong and the minute Orton sees someone 4 feet away from him he just falls down.

All the great QB's have the ability to manipulate the pocket to a degree, and move around long enough to make a play. Aaron Rodgers is a perfect example of that. Orton is a perfect example of not being able to do that.

You want an efficient QB like Orton, you better make damn sure everything around him is perfect. I personally don't want to bank the success of the offense on not having any injuries or breakdowns.

And the only thing I hatge about watching the screen plays is Orton throwing at the feet of a stationary WR 10 yards away from him. Unbelievable.

EastCoastBronco
12-21-2009, 07:43 AM
Vent all you want about gameplan and coaching. From what I could see on my laptop (freakin game wasn't broadcast out here) the boys in silver and black just plain out played us. Other than that one drive where Marshall "posted up" and got the TD and the goalline stand, we looked like we didn't want to be there. That 3 run 95 yard drive that Oakland had was all I needed to see to know we were going to lose this one. They were hungrier by far. Sad part is...I thought we had that part of our game (the motivation part) taken care of....

claymore
12-21-2009, 07:48 AM
Vent all you want about gameplan and coaching. From what I could see on my laptop (freakin game wasn't broadcast out here) the boys in silver and black just plain out played us. Other than that one drive where Marshall "posted up" and got the TD and the goalline stand, we looked like we didn't want to be there. That 3 run 95 yard drive that Oakland had was all I needed to see to know we were going to lose this one. They were hungrier by far. Sad part is...I thought we had that part of our game (the motivation part) taken care of....

Red Zone Efficiency 1/4 - 25%, Third Down Efficiency 4/15 - 26%.

Our defense has won several games for us this year. Our offense is terrible. And its not the players fault. Predictible playcalling, plays not designed to suite the players we have....

Call it what you want, I call it bad coaching.

Northman
12-21-2009, 08:00 AM
Vent all you want about gameplan and coaching. From what I could see on my laptop (freakin game wasn't broadcast out here) the boys in silver and black just plain out played us. Other than that one drive where Marshall "posted up" and got the TD and the goalline stand, we looked like we didn't want to be there. That 3 run 95 yard drive that Oakland had was all I needed to see to know we were going to lose this one. They were hungrier by far. Sad part is...I thought we had that part of our game (the motivation part) taken care of....

/thread

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 08:36 AM
Red Zone Efficiency 1/4 - 25%, Third Down Efficiency 4/15 - 26%.

Our defense has won several games for us this year. Our offense is terrible. And its not the players fault. Predictible playcalling, plays not designed to suite the players we have....

Call it what you want, I call it bad coaching.

I call is bias...but that's just me

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2009, 08:39 AM
I know I'll catch heat but I do blame Orton more than anyone else. I saw Orton go down with a one handed push from a defensive lineman. No matter what you think about Orton, he got outplayed by Charlie F'n Frye yesterday. When he got pressure, he'd move around in the pocket to buy time. Orton NEVER does, EVER! Maybe having just a little bit of pocket awareness and mobility is too much to ask? Orton is Drew Bledsoe without the arm. Dan Marino was more mobile than Orton.

Silky said it best in his earlier post that our offense is so ridiculously simplified because of Orton. McD doesn't TRUST him to go downfield. Even on third down, he almost never throws beyond the sticks. He's a check down machine. Half the guys on this board could do what Orton has done so far in this offense - I CAN THROW A BUBBLE SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY AND LET MARSHALL RUN FOR 7 YARDS! I can dive into the back of the O-line on 3rd and one and not pick up the first down!

I do blame Orton for our offensive woes and will continue to do so. He's ineffective at running the offense, period. He got all the credit when we were 6-0 for being so "careful" with the football and such a good game manager. Now he gets the credit for being 2-6. This is pretty much the same O-line from last year that gave up so few sacks, the difference... ORTON!

For everyone out there who thinks Orton is the right fit let me ask you this, Where would Orton be without Marshall? For the last 4 weeks almost all of his passing stats are because of Marshall making plays with his legs or huge catches on poorly thrown balls. 200 of Orton's 277 yds vs Indy were 3 yard passes to Marshall that he made plays out of. Had we traded Marshall away like so many people wanted to, where would Orton be? This isn't "synergy" between the two like Brady and Welker or Manning and Wayne, this is "let me just throw it in Marshall's direction and hope he makes a play".

It is Orton. Plain and simple. Watch this guy play, I mean really watch him. NOBODY in the league fears this guy. EVERY team has the same game plan vs us, stop the run and force Orton to beat you because he can't. It's the truth people, everyone seems to know it but us.

claymore
12-21-2009, 08:40 AM
I call is bias...but that's just me

So its good coaching?

HORSEPOWER 56
12-21-2009, 08:45 AM
So its good coaching?

I don't care for the play calling most of the time either clay, but when your QB is an immobile buffoon who can't read defenses, can't make stick throws and can't scramble, you're extremely limited in the play calling.

Do you really think our offense would be this pathetic with a better QB in there? Seriously, do you think if Cutler had stayed all we'd do is 3 yd curls and bubble screens? Is that all Brady does? Is that all anybody in the league does besides us?

I don't think McDoogie trusts Orton farther than he can throw him. That's why our offensive playbook contains 5 plays.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 08:52 AM
So its good coaching?

I've tried to stay open-minded about the team and what causes their problems as long as I can, but at the end of the day I see players simply not executing. If the rest of the offense played with the heart and passion that Marshall and Moreno play with, they'd be unstoppable. Do I think the play-calling lacks a little creativity? Sure. But when your QB and OL cant execute the basics...what convinces you that they can do anythign more complex?

I think McD is handcuffed a little by the play of Orton and the line. Brandon Stokely takes a 65 yard pass play down to the 2...and that doesnt motivate the line enough to block for a running play? Instead they give up a 1 yard loss? Assume they block someone and we score there...we win. How the hell is th coach to blame for that?

If you want to blame a coach for not being prepared yesterday...look at Nolan. You're facing Charlie Frye and your players allow Oakland to run for over 200?

claymore
12-21-2009, 08:53 AM
I don't care for the play calling most of the time either clay, but when your QB is an immobile buffoon who can't read defenses, can't make stick throws and can't scramble, you're extremely limited in the play calling.

Do you really think our offense would be this pathetic with a better QB in there? Seriously, do you think if Cutler had stayed all we'd do is 3 yd curls and bubble screens? Is that all Brady does? Is that all anybody in the league does besides us?

I don't think McDoogie trusts Orton farther than he can throw him. That's why our offensive playbook contains 5 plays.

I really, Really hope that is the case. It simplifies the problem greatley. I think Orton is doing exactly what he is being told though. Just like Moreno, and our offensive line.

claymore
12-21-2009, 08:57 AM
I've tried to stay open-minded about the team and what causes their problems as long as I can, but at the end of the day I see players simply not executing. If the rest of the offense played with the heart and passion that Marshall and Moreno play with, they'd be unstoppable. Do I think the play-calling lacks a little creativity? Sure. But when your QB and OL cant execute the basics...what convinces you that they can do anythign more complex?

I think McD is handcuffed a little by the play of Orton and the line. Brandon Stokely takes a 65 yard pass play down to the 2...and that doesnt motivate the line enough to block for a running play? Instead they give up a 1 yard loss? Assume they block someone and we score there...we win. How the hell is th coach to blame for that?

If you want to blame a coach for not being prepared yesterday...look at Nolan. You're facing Charlie Frye and your players allow Oakland to run for over 200?
Nolan deserves to get an ass chewing, but he has kept us in almost every game this year. He isnt the problem.

Maybe our line doesnt believe in what JMCD is doing. Or how he is trying to do it. Maybe our line isnt gifted enough to block guys straight up. Thats why all but Clady and harris were free agents or later round picks.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 08:57 AM
I really, Really hope that is the case. It simplifies the problem greatley. I think Orton is doing exactly what he is being told though. Just like Moreno, and our offensive line.

Exactly right. Orton is a robot. He wont make too many errors, but doing anything outside of what he's told to do isnt in his "programming". That means no adjustments will be made on the field on his part.

Moreno's woes fall on the shoulders of the OL. A few injuries and a few players that cant handle the scheme and it leads to poor run blocking. That should be the first thing corrected in the off-season.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 08:59 AM
Nolan deserves to get an ass chewing, but he has kept us in almost every game this year. He isnt the problem.

Maybe our line doesnt believe in what JMCD is doing. Or how he is trying to do it. Maybe our line isnt gifted enough to block guys straight up. Thats why all but Clady and harris were free agents or later round picks.

Overall...I dont think either coahc is the problem. Looking at just yesterday...I dont care what the gameplan is. If you are a Bronco...you DO NOT allow Oakland to come in to your house and win. At some point pride has to come into play and you make something happen.


They didnt

elsid13
12-21-2009, 09:03 AM
Ya know what I'm tired of.....Orton being the scapegoat for McDaniels joke of a system. He throws what is called. McDaniels has so many freaking training wheels on this offense, I'm surprised they gain anything during a 60 minute game. Orton has shown he can throw a long ball, but freakin McDaniels refuses to call the play.

We have a stubborn coach who instead of doing what is best for the team, chooses to limit what the player do just to prove his own points, to which he still fails miserably.

Ya know why everyone bitches about Hillis not getting touches? Why no one will shut up about it....because McDaniels refuses to give him a shot to even prove us wrong. Lamont freaking Jordan? That guy should be sitting at home on Sundays, he has no business in on ANY situation. Moreno? Dude needs to stop the hesitate and back pedal at the freaking line. Either find a hole to run through or get off the field. Without Bucky, our run game is a joke. Our Oline, where the hell have they gone?? Ohhhh yea....McDaniels changed the scheme that worked for them and refuses to scrap his pulling guard and power line bullshit, even though we don't have the freaking players for it.

Pigheadedness is killing us. McDaniels, check your effing ego at the tunnel and win the mother ******* game. Jerk.

Gem,

Orton is a problem in my mind for fours reasons. First on 3rd downs (the money down for QB) he fails to often. Either by not completing the required pass to right WR/TE or not changing the run play to attack the defense formation. Since the day he was hired, McDaniels has stated that QB needs to audible at the line for this offense to be successful. Second, Orton needs a clean pocket to make his throws. This is the NFL rarely does QB get a clean pocket to 100% of the time to make his throws. Add his lack of mobility and you get SOB Part 2. Finally there appears to be a deep option on all the play calls (not all 4 WRs/TEs are sitting within 5 yards of the line), Orton is risk adverse and always checks down. It alright to throw INT once and awhile if it's deep ball. That forces the defense to play honest.

Yesterday we had 4 to 5 series of 3rd down in the row the offense failed to convert. The QB needs to be one make some play on those downs and we might win that game.

SOCALORADO.
12-21-2009, 09:47 AM
Gem,

Orton is a problem in my mind for fours reasons. First on 3rd downs (the money down for QB) he fails to often. Either by not completing the required pass to right WR/TE or not changing the run play to attack the defense formation. Since the day he was hired, McDaniels has stated that QB needs to audible at the line for this offense to be successful. Second, Orton needs a clean pocket to make his throws. This is the NFL rarely does QB get a clean pocket to 100% of the time to make his throws. Add his lack of mobility and you get SOB Part 2. Finally there appears to be a deep option on all the play calls (not all 4 WRs/TEs are sitting within 5 yards of the line), Orton is risk adverse and always checks down. It alright to throw INT once and awhile if it's deep ball. That forces the defense to play honest.

Yesterday we had 4 to 5 series of 3rd down in the row the offense failed to convert. The QB needs to be one make some play on those downs and we might win that game.

Gotta agree with ya on this. Good post.
There has been a deep threat on alot of plays this year, and Orton has checked down in an almost stubborn way. He just wont even really look that way, and i think teams are watching tape of him and realizing this. He occasionally throws deep, but its a fluke thing on a totally busted coverage, or its at the very end of the game or just before half time when its irrelevant anyways, or he has no choice but to throw it.
Orton is a career back up. Period. MCD knew this and made the best of a screwed situation in getting him, because MCD is good at coaching QBs specifically. His history shows this. And thats all great. But as a long term starter in DEN, Orton is not the answer.
Also, for other posters, dont be suprised if MCD does indeed draft a QB in a draft that has alot of "quality" QBs in it. Just because DEN moved up to the 6th to take Brandstater doesnt make him the final solution. Plenty of options out there....

claymore
12-21-2009, 09:50 AM
Gotta agree with ya on this. Good post.
There has been a deep threat on alot of plays this year, and Orton has checked down in an almost stubborn way. He just wont even really look that way, and i think teams are watching tape of him and realizing this. He occasionally throws deep, but its a fluke thing on a totally busted coverage, or its at the very end of the game or just before half time when its irrelevant anyways, or he has no choice but to throw it.
Orton is a career back up. Period. MCD knew this and made the best of a screwed situation in getting him, because MCD is good at coaching QBs specifically. His history shows this. And thats all great. But as a long term starter in DEN, Orton is not the answer.
Also, for other posters, dont be suprised if MCD does indeed draft a QB in a draft that has alot of "quality" QBs in it. Just because DEN moved up to the 6th to take Brandstater doesnt make him the final solution. Plenty of options out there....

He took a 16-0 SB team to 11-5 with Cassell. When we win a Playoff game with Orton I will say he has a good history with QB's.

I have yet to see the genius that was promised. I have seen alot of luck in the first 6 games, and questionable moves and callsthe rest of the time.

I hope the problem is Orton. Because that is alot easier to fix than if the issue was JMCD.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 09:52 AM
He took a 16-0 SB team to 11-5 with Cassell. When we win a Playoff game with Orton I will say he has a good history with QB's.

I have yet to see the genius that was promised. I have seen alot of luck in the first 6 games, and questionable moves and callsthe rest of the time.

I hope the problem is Orton. Because that is alot easier to fix than if the issue was JMCD.

Is that the same lucky 6-0 team that you said you'd finally believe in if they went 6-0?

claymore
12-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Is that the same lucky 6-0 team that you said you'd finally believe in if they went 6-0?

Yup, then they dropped 4 straight. We are 2-6 since I accepted the luck wins. (couple of those were real wins).

SOCALORADO.
12-21-2009, 09:57 AM
He took a 16-0 SB team to 11-5 with Cassell. When we win a Playoff game with Orton I will say he has a good history with QB's.

I have yet to see the genius that was promised. I have seen alot of luck in the first 6 games, and questionable moves and callsthe rest of the time.

I hope the problem is Orton. Because that is alot easier to fix than if the issue was JMCD.

I am not saying hes a great HC. I am saying hes good at coaching QBs. That seems to be his specialty, and you can see he has some success with QBs that no other teams even wanted. When was Cassell drafted? In the 7th? Its impressive, considering that these guys are coached up prior to a game really well and they execute his game plan. MCD has done this all year twice! To me, that pretty impressive considering.
Really i have said all year that DEN has 2 HCs. One for offense and one for defense. Its really helped this team attain the success they have had this year.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 12:32 PM
I don't think the ONLY problem is Orton. Not at all. But as some have pointed out, he doesn't do ANYTHING to MAKE plays. 3rd down conversions are horrible. How many times do you see Breese throw deep on 3rd and 1 because he identifies the 1-n-1 coverage? A lot.

Most QBs do (sometimes to the point of irritating the crap out of me). But they THROW at the 1-n-1 coverage. So is it the "system" or is it the QB? Im pretty sure I see Brady isolate and throw at the single coverage. Finding the single coverage is QB 101, so its not "learning the system" junk. Orton is a good guy, but he's not going to WIN you games unless the defense plays lights out (or shut out). Thats the problem as far as HE goes.

I haven't seen anything, yet, that would make me believe that the success in NE was anything outside of Brady-Moss-welker

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 12:39 PM
I don't think the ONLY problem is Orton. Not at all. But as some have pointed out, he doesn't do ANYTHING to MAKE plays. 3rd down conversions are horrible. How many times do you see Breese throw deep on 3rd and 1 because he identifies the 1-n-1 coverage? A lot.

Most QBs do (sometimes to the point of irritating the crap out of me). But they THROW at the 1-n-1 coverage. So is it the "system" or is it the QB? Im pretty sure I see Brady isolate and throw at the single coverage. Finding the single coverage is QB 101, so its not "learning the system" junk. Orton is a good guy, but he's not going to WIN you games unless the defense plays lights out (or shut out). Thats the problem as far as HE goes.

I haven't seen anything, yet, that would make me believe that the success in NE was anything outside of Brady-Moss-welker

But I personally believe that we have the Moss-Welker portion of that equation in Marshall-Royal. Royal hasnt shown that much this year, but Orton doesnt seem to trust him very much either...at least not as much as he does Marshall.

The additional proof in the Orton robotics lies in Marshall's numbers. Obviously, most plays are designed to go to Marshall and that's where Orton's first check is. If marshall isnt open, he'll check to a 2nd option and then throw it away.

I think Orton could be successful if he gained confidence in himself first and foremost. Unfortunately, that's the "head" portion of a player that cant be coached. The "head" is also why Cutler is gone and failing elsewhere.

So, if Orton cant get his head into the position as it's demanded in Denver with McD, we have no choice but to find someone else.

DenBronx
12-21-2009, 12:43 PM
mcdaniels tries to play way to safe with all of the weapons we have on offense. eddie and hillis have not been used all year and i'm sick of it. i'm not sure getting a big arm qb in round one of the draft will do us any good because josh will not throw it deep.

bowlen??? where are you in this melt down? i thought you said you want to win a superbowl?

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 12:48 PM
mcdaniels tries to play way to safe with all of the weapons we have on offense. eddie and hillis have not been used all year and i'm sick of it. i'm not sure getting a big arm qb in round one of the draft will do us any good because josh will not throw it deep.

bowlen??? where are you in this melt down? i thought you said you want to win a superbowl?

Talk about overreaction

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 01:09 PM
But I personally believe that we have the Moss-Welker portion of that equation in Marshall-Royal. Royal hasnt shown that much this year, but Orton doesnt seem to trust him very much either...at least not as much as he does Marshall.

The additional proof in the Orton robotics lies in Marshall's numbers. Obviously, most plays are designed to go to Marshall and that's where Orton's first check is. If marshall isnt open, he'll check to a 2nd option and then throw it away.

I think Orton could be successful if he gained confidence in himself first and foremost. Unfortunately, that's the "head" portion of a player that cant be coached. The "head" is also why Cutler is gone and failing elsewhere.

So, if Orton cant get his head into the position as it's demanded in Denver with McD, we have no choice but to find someone else.


See.. I don't believe, again, that Royal just "all of a sudden" goes from what many fans believed to be our "Best WR" to simply going non-existent. He can't go from a guy that runs fantastic routes to get open and catch 90 balls, to a guy that can't get open. This kid can't go from "having amazing hands" to a guy the QB doesn't trust. Scheffler, Stokely, and Hillis? These guys can go into the locker room without having to wash their uniforms.

I'm just not convinced, for a MOMENT, that Orton is very good at reading coverages and who is open and who isn't other than finding the check down 'easy' throw. He can't seem to isolate the single coverage, doesn't attack that coverage, and rarely is able to find a very talented WR on the team (Royal).

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 01:15 PM
See.. I don't believe, again, that Royal just "all of a sudden" goes from what many fans believed to be our "Best WR" to simply going non-existent. He can't go from a guy that runs fantastic routes to get open and catch 90 balls, to a guy that can't get open. This kid can't go from "having amazing hands" to a guy the QB doesn't trust. Scheffler, Stokely, and Hillis? These guys can go into the locker room without having to wash their uniforms.

I'm just not convinced, for a MOMENT, that Orton is very good at reading coverages and who is open and who isn't other than finding the check down 'easy' throw. He can't seem to isolate the single coverage, doesn't attack that coverage, and rarely is able to find a very talented WR on the team (Royal).

I agree...and as I said before, the offense is designed for a QB to simply check down and not have to read the defense. based on that...orton is the perfect QB for it. However, Orton seems to check once and then get rid of the ball. he checks from primary target (Marshall) to emergency target (HB or TE) and then gets rid of the ball.

We need a QB that is capable of checking properly, but who also has the confidence and athleticism to move and find an alternate option downfield.

Orton isnt that guy and I think McDaniels knows that. Who knows if it comes with more experince in the system or not. We'll find out next year, I suppose.

JDL
12-21-2009, 01:38 PM
As I keep saying... Orton's problem isn't that he can't read the defense (well, a case could be made that he is unable to move around the pocket and keep looking downfield, when he pulls it down and tries to move, usually something bad happens.)

However, his problem is that he is not accurate. There is no amount of fixing or coaching that could ever correct that. Royal is a smaller WR and is best used on slant routes and quick cutting routes going away from defenders to the inside or outside. I don't really even see Orton throw many of those passes anymore and when he does he is usually behind the WR. That's ok when throwing to Marshall, as we saw, he turns a bad throw into a one-handed stab. Royal can't do that, he doesn't have the wingspan and body size to do that sort of thing. The only time Orton can hit him or most other WRs, is on curl routes, where he doesn't have to adjust for lateral movement. Those are part of Orton's limitations. He is good enough to win games in the league, but ultimately he is a bit like Griese (actually worse than Griese in his prime because given protection he could actually hit all the short and medium throws.) But, long-term he is not the answer and people just cannot be dense enough to think he is. We should keep him on the team no doubt and he should probably start for a couple years until we groom someone and I am SURE most people would give McD the benefit of the doubt if he actually acknowledged this and mades apparent steps to fixing apparent problems.

He seems really arrogant though and full of himself... the best thing to happen to Shanahan, was to be humbled .. now twice. McD is going to run things into the ground unless he learns how to adapt and change his perceptions. If he is this rigid and unable to make necessary modifications on something even as simple as giving Moreno more of a breather (like last week where he'd rather have destroyed Moreno than put any other back on the field to rest him even for a couple plays) then you have a real issue.

All this stuff about we are not inside the Broncos... that approach is nonsense.. lemmings to the cliff. There are more bad personnel managers and coaches in the NFL than there are good ones and we are trying to determine that about the current Broncos staff. The Broncos have 2 wins in 8 games and McDaniels deserves all the heat and criticism that he is getting, it is no different than the praise. The red zone failures and lack of addressing the DL in the offseason have really badly hurt this team. It is hard not to see that and young coaches will make errors, but if you have a guy who is bound and determined to not only fail to learn from his errors but refuse to acknowledge them, even if just to himself... then we have problems and there is an appearance of that going on here now.

weazel
12-21-2009, 02:30 PM
at least we got Nolan...

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 03:09 PM
mcdaniels tries to play way to safe with all of the weapons we have on offense. eddie and hillis have not been used all year and i'm sick of it. i'm not sure getting a big arm qb in round one of the draft will do us any good because josh will not throw it deep.

If you think McDaniels doesn't want to throw the ball downfield you didn't watch him in New England. And yes, Matt Cassell did throw the ball down field. Kyle Orton is simply a QB you don't want to throw the ball downfield with. Why? Because unless it's absolutely for surely ther e (which it isn't always there for any team), Orton throws the ball away.


bowlen??? where are you in this melt down? i thought you said you want to win a superbowl?

Bowlen's watching his Broncos be more competitive in a week by week basis then he was with Shanahan ever year with a team that wasn't supposed to win 4 games.

I'm still not sure why everyone's looking at this team and all of a sudden thinking we should be SuperBowl contenders. We're a ways away from that. We were a ways away from that when we were winning. Deal with it.

missingnumber7
12-21-2009, 03:16 PM
Bowlen's watching his Broncos be more competitive in a week by week basis then he was with Shanahan ever year with a team that wasn't supposed to win 4 games.

.


Really? Because I think that this seasons team looks exactly like last seasons late season melt down.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 03:29 PM
Really? Because I think that this seasons team looks exactly like last seasons late season melt down.

Instead of losing a three game lead at the end, we lost it in November.. and could be the ONLY team to go 6-0 and not reach the playoffs. Not sure where we "appear" to be more competitive. Defensively for sure. We sure as hell didn't look competitive at ALLLLLLLLLLL in NOV when getting friggin' WHIPPED by Balimore, Pitt, and San Diego. We just looked "competitive" against one of the worst teams in the NFL.

The difference from this year's team to last years team, is that we aren't giving up 28 points a game and having to keep up. Instead, we give up 16 and try to keep up.

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 03:30 PM
this system is designed to throw to the open receiver where ever they are.. not throw into double coverage but to throw to the open guy ..

now there could be lots of reasons we are not getting open guys.. our WR/TE are not running the routes correctly.. which as fans with no access to the play calling or playbook we would not know.. what may look like a wide open person could be someone running the wrong route.. or not being on time with that route..

Y'all can flap your gums and lips or fingers in this case but without being in the film room none of us KNOW for sure what is going on..

Orton seems to be getting the ball to the guy that has been getting YAC and that is what this scheme is designed to do.. might be throwing that bubble screen after he sees the coverage down field.. unless you KNOW what has been called or what they are giving us defensively, you can't be critical of how they are doing..

this is perhaps more complex a scheme than mikes 4-5 plays everyone bitched about last year.. something that most of the players had 2-3 years to learn.. why is it no one is willing to give these player more than 14 games to make it work..

the fact that we have lost the LOS battle in most of the games this year seems to fall on deaf ears.. how can you fix that mid year other than changing personal and so far Hamilton is gone Harris is out with an injury.. we all knew that the OLINE was thin (literally) to start with.. but everyone wanted extra WR just in case marshall did not get with the program..

this team is and will be a project to REBUILD into the 2010 season and we still have chance for the playoffs something that FEW here thought would be possible after all the changes in the off season..

Northman
12-21-2009, 03:37 PM
this system is designed to throw to the open receiver where ever they are.. not throw into double coverage but to throw to the open guy ..

now there could be lots of reasons we are not getting open guys.. our WR/TE are not running the routes correctly.. which as fans with no access to the play calling or playbook we would not know.. what may look like a wide open person could be someone running the wrong route.. or not being on time with that route..

Y'all can flap your gums and lips or fingers in this case but without being in the film room none of us KNOW for sure what is going on..

Orton seems to be getting the ball to the guy that has been getting YAC and that is what this scheme is designed to do.. might be throwing that bubble screen after he sees the coverage down field.. unless you KNOW what has been called or what they are giving us defensively, you can't be critical of how they are doing..

this is perhaps more complex a scheme than mikes 4-5 plays everyone bitched about last year.. something that most of the players had 2-3 years to learn.. why is it no one is willing to give these player more than 14 games to make it work..

the fact that we have lost the LOS battle in most of the games this year seems to fall on deaf ears.. how can you fix that mid year other than changing personal and so far Hamilton is gone Harris is out with an injury.. we all knew that the OLINE was thin (literally) to start with.. but everyone wanted extra WR just in case marshall did not get with the program..

this team is and will be a project to REBUILD into the 2010 season and we still have chance for the playoffs something that FEW here thought would be possible after all the changes in the off season..

The irony is after the 2005 season we went from having a lethargic offense and somewhat good defense too a great offense and no defense back to a lethargic offense and a decent defense. Im just wondering when its going to be both. I will say this though, if we have the same struggles next year i dont want to hear anymore excuses from anyone about why this team isnt performing better in all phases. Ill give McD his pass this year but next year we better be in the playoffs and we better win the division. Anything else is unacceptable.

claymore
12-21-2009, 03:42 PM
The irony is after the 2005 season we went from having a lethargic offense and somewhat good defense too a great offense and no defense back to a lethargic offense and a decent defense. Im just wondering when its going to be both. I will say this though, if we have the same struggles next year i dont want to hear anymore excuses from anyone about why this team isnt performing better in all phases. Ill give McD his pass this year but next year we better be in the playoffs and we better win the division. Anything else is unacceptable.

Thats when we draft a QB and JMCD adds 3 years to his contract! :elefant:

Northman
12-21-2009, 03:49 PM
Thats when we draft a QB and JMCD adds 3 years to his contract! :elefant:

I have no idea what he is going to do but i said at the beginning of the year i expected 9-7 at the very least. I know you saw that post from me too because you said the same thing. As for the draft, i dont care what he does as its his ass on the line not mine. But, i would like to see him stockpile draft picks like they do in NE. Going by how the Bears are playing we should be able to swindle Shanahan and the Foreskins by taking McCoy in the top 10. :laugh:

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 03:51 PM
Yeah.. the WRs and TEs are running the wrong routes. Yeah.. after 14 weeks into the system, Orton is the ONLY one that is running the right plays and everyone else is messing up. The system is SOOOOO complicated, that no one can get it.

THis system isn't any harder than any other system. This is not any harder than Mike's system. Throwing to the open receiver isn't new to ANY system. Having a dump off RB to catch the three yard pass, is in EVERY system. How many times do we have to hear from players and coaches that EVERY SYSTEM runs the same plays?? The RBs all run to the same holes. The receivers all run the same routes from team to team.

claymore
12-21-2009, 03:51 PM
I have no idea what he is going to do but i said at the beginning of the year i expected 9-7 at the very least. I know you saw that post from me too because you said the same thing. As for the draft, i dont care what he does as its his ass on the line not mine. But, i would like to see him stockpile draft picks like they do in NE. Going by how the Bears are playing we should be able to swindle Shanahan and the Foreskins by taking McCoy in the top 10. :laugh:

Id like it to be ten wins. I think he has had alot of luck come his way this year, and the 10th win will erase the stuff that bothers me. :D

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Id like it to be ten wins. I think he has had alot of luck come his way this year, and the 10th win will erase the stuff that bothers me. :D

heh.. liar :beer:

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 04:00 PM
The irony is after the 2005 season we went from having a lethargic offense and somewhat good defense too a great offense and no defense back to a lethargic offense and a decent defense. Im just wondering when its going to be both. I will say this though, if we have the same struggles next year i dont want to hear anymore excuses from anyone about why this team isnt performing better in all phases. Ill give McD his pass this year but next year we better be in the playoffs and we better win the division. Anything else is unacceptable.

unless SAN loses alot of players to FA and that does not seem possible unless we get a CBA and then that screws us also.. I do not see us wining the division..

they had the blessing if you call it that to get a lot of great draft choices because they sucked so bad 4-7 years ago.. they picked up some great players that are now coming into their prime..

so taking the division no I do not see that unless they have a catastrophic event that screws them..

they have had the chance to draft well and the GM to do so.. something this team has not had.. they drafted in the top 5 for a couple three years and we have not for a long long time..

until rivers and most of their Defense retires or is a FA I think we are looking for wild card for a few years yet till we get Joshes Draft choice up and trained..

What say you?

Northman
12-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Yeah.. the WRs and TEs are running the wrong routes. Yeah.. after 14 weeks into the system, Orton is the ONLY one that is running the right plays and everyone else is messing up. The system is SOOOOO complicated, that no one can get it.

THis system isn't any harder than any other system. This is not any harder than Mike's system. Throwing to the open receiver isn't new to ANY system. Having a dump off RB to catch the three yard pass, is in EVERY system. How many times do we have to hear from players and coaches that EVERY SYSTEM runs the same plays?? The RBs all run to the same holes. The receivers all run the same routes from team to team.


Hey, when did McD join the Pats?

claymore
12-21-2009, 04:10 PM
unless SAN loses alot of players to FA and that does not seem possible unless we get a CBA and then that screws us also.. I do not see us wining the division..

they had the blessing if you call it that to get a lot of great draft choices because they sucked so bad 4-7 years ago.. they picked up some great players that are now coming into their prime..

so taking the division no I do not see that unless they have a catastrophic event that screws them..

they have had the chance to draft well and the GM to do so.. something this team has not had.. they drafted in the top 5 for a couple three years and we have not for a long long time..

until rivers and most of their Defense retires or is a FA I think we are looking for wild card for a few years yet till we get Joshes Draft choice up and trained..

What say you?

I say we take this division back.

underrated29
12-21-2009, 04:10 PM
actually i do think we are a few key players away. We need some talent not a bunch of marginals.

Our defense is almost there, and on offense we are there except OL.

On offense we need a C (badly). we need a LG and depth at T. WR could use help but not really and QB is a upgrade needed.

Defense we need a NT a big fat Mammoth. We also need a pass rush DE and Depth at CB- champ,goodman,ty are older will be around abother year or two.

So if we land an ELITE QB, NT and C (which canbe found in 2nd/3rd) we just shored up big areas. A QB can help the offense go, the C will keep him upright, and NT will stop the run.


We dont need a whole bunch of new players. We dont have room on the roster for them either. We had a hard time getting under our limit this year, add in a bunch new rook draftees and its no good. Our foundation is set and solid. lets add those few spectacle pieces to throw us over the top.

The Glue Factory
12-21-2009, 05:12 PM
Well let's take a look at where we are at compared to oh... 6 months ago. Almost all of us thought 8-8 would be a great way to end the season. Surprise! Here we are. Guaranteed at least a non-losing season (just like the way we ended last year, I might add) with potential for finishing a winning season and a possible trip to the playoffs.

What's getting lost in all this doom the day after a heart wrenching loss, is that McDaniels is working with a hybrid team. He's got the small, agile, quick line of the ZBS whic isn't the traditional kind of line he wants. The DL isn't what he wants because it's being converted from a 3-4.

In the end this team is a patchwork between old and new and we have people audacious enough to complain that we're actually exceeding expectations for this year!? Get a grip people! I'm not saying we haven't lost games we should have one (the last two weeks are prime examples) but the assumption in over 90% of the posts in this cluster @#$^ of a thread is assuming we're playing with a team that isn't in process of conversion.

Am I ok with the loss last night? Heck no! I just about threw my remote through my brand new 55" HDTV for crying out loud. I have NEVER had the thought cross my mind before yesterday. But you have got to remember that the team that is on the field this year and next is a team in transition from what Shanny made to what McDaniels is making. Not all the parts are even on the team to make us the great team we will be. some parts are there already. Give McDaniels another 2 years and I would be shocked if we're still complaining about what's getting our panties in a bunch right now.

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 05:25 PM
Really? Because I think that this seasons team looks exactly like last seasons late season melt down.

Really? Because I think there was significantly higher expectations last season than there were this season, and worse case scenario we would finish with the same recod as last year.

The season might finish as a disappointment, but lets not sit here and pretend that this season was some kind of major disappointment in general, considering the team we have and the state of the organization.

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 05:27 PM
Well let's take a look at where we are at compared to oh... 6 months ago. Almost all of us thought 8-8 would be a great way to end the season. Surprise! Here we are. Guaranteed at least a non-losing season (just like the way we ended last year, I might add) with potential for finishing a winning season and a possible trip to the playoffs.

What's getting lost in all this doom the day after a heart wrenching loss, is that McDaniels is working with a hybrid team. He's got the small, agile, quick line of the ZBS whic isn't the traditional kind of line he wants. The DL isn't what he wants because it's being converted from a 3-4.

In the end this team is a patchwork between old and new and we have people audacious enough to complain that we're actually exceeding expectations for this year!? Get a grip people! I'm not saying we haven't lost games we should have one (the last two weeks are prime examples) but the assumption in over 90% of the posts in this cluster @#$^ of a thread is assuming we're playing with a team that isn't in process of conversion.

Am I ok with the loss last night? Heck no! I just about threw my remote through my brand new 55" HDTV for crying out loud. I have NEVER had the thought cross my mind before yesterday. But you have got to remember that the team that is on the field this year and next is a team in transition from what Shanny made to what McDaniels is making. Not all the parts are even on the team to make us the great team we will be. some parts are there already. Give McDaniels another 2 years and I would be shocked if we're still complaining about what's getting our panties in a bunch right now.

bears repeating..

mike wanted fast and smart OLINE and Dline..and super fast LBs..

it was a good thing before everyone got HUGE on the LOS and mauled us when we went to pocket passing scheme under humdinger..

the hand writing was on the wall then but took 2 more years to get Clady..

now we have our franchise OLT and maybe if he can stay healthy ORT.. Kuper looks like a keeper but OLG and Center re the weak spots and the games I have seen KO is getting pressure from the NT and DT which do not allow him to step up into the pocket when the DE's are turned loose..

that has to change and I think we will spend a couple of 2-4 draft choices on OG and center..

Josh has a vison and it may or may not get fixed this coming year but he is trying to overcome alot of bad drafting/FA years from before..

Most of Y'all were OK with a winning record from before why not now..

Northman
12-21-2009, 05:36 PM
Well let's take a look at where we are at compared to oh... 6 months ago. Almost all of us thought 8-8 would be a great way to end the season. Surprise! Here we are. Guaranteed at least a non-losing season (just like the way we ended last year, I might add) with potential for finishing a winning season and a possible trip to the playoffs.

What's getting lost in all this doom the day after a heart wrenching loss, is that McDaniels is working with a hybrid team. He's got the small, agile, quick line of the ZBS whic isn't the traditional kind of line he wants. The DL isn't what he wants because it's being converted from a 3-4.

In the end this team is a patchwork between old and new and we have people audacious enough to complain that we're actually exceeding expectations for this year!? Get a grip people! I'm not saying we haven't lost games we should have one (the last two weeks are prime examples) but the assumption in over 90% of the posts in this cluster @#$^ of a thread is assuming we're playing with a team that isn't in process of conversion.

Am I ok with the loss last night? Heck no! I just about threw my remote through my brand new 55" HDTV for crying out loud. I have NEVER had the thought cross my mind before yesterday. But you have got to remember that the team that is on the field this year and next is a team in transition from what Shanny made to what McDaniels is making. Not all the parts are even on the team to make us the great team we will be. some parts are there already. Give McDaniels another 2 years and I would be shocked if we're still complaining about what's getting our panties in a bunch right now.

Well, both Brady and Cassel put up at least 20TD's in their first go rounds with McD's system. Brady in fact threw for 50 TD's in his second year under McD's system. Ive heard from a few on here that Orton will be much better next year so im guessing we should at least expect 25 to 30 TD's from our QB and offense. McD has set the bar this year of either .500 or better football. Anything less is not going to cut it.

The Glue Factory
12-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Well, both Brady and Cassel put up at least 20TD's in their first go rounds with McD's system. Brady in fact threw for 50 TD's in his second year under McD's system. Ive heard from a few on here that Orton will be much better next year so im guessing we should at least expect 25 to 30 TD's from our QB and offense.

Brady and Cassell didn't have to deal with a patchwork team and undersized linemen either.




McD has set the bar this year of either .500 or better football. Anything less is not going to cut it.

As of 2 weeks ago that was attained, being guaranteed another non-losing season. With a game against KC in Denver, I think we end the year at least 9-7.

getlynched47
12-21-2009, 05:49 PM
Let me ask something to the Orton haters who are arguing that we need a "playmaking" QB...I posted this in the mane:


You want a game breaker or game manager?

What constitutes a game breaker? A player who throws 19 TDs (Cutler) instead of 17 TDs (Orton)?? Or a player that throws 25 INTs (Cutler) instead of 8 INTs (Orton)??

Cutler is known as a "playmaker", but the only plays I see him making are to the opposition. What is your definition of a playmaker? A higher completion percentage? That goes to Kyle Orton. A better QB rating? That goes to Kyle Orton too. How about a better yards per play average? Oh look that belongs to Kyle Orton as well. More passing yards? Kyle Orton over Jay Cutler there also.

I'm confused as to what you want in a QB?

Here's what the issue is. JOSH MCDANIELS. He is the one limiting this offense with his stupid offensive system AND his horrendous playcalling.

Jay Cutler is a playmaker, no? Well then why does Kyle Orton beat him on almost every major statistical category? That makes Kyle Orton a playmaker, no?

Enlighten me, please.

I am NOT bashing Kyle Orton, in fact I feel bad for Orton because McDaniels wants to hold his hand and limit him, it's not the other way around. McDaniels is calling conservative bullshit plays, not Orton.

Northman
12-21-2009, 05:52 PM
Brady and Cassell didn't have to deal with a patchwork team and undersized linemen either.




As of 2 weeks ago that was attained, being guaranteed another non-losing season. With a game against KC in Denver, I think we end the year at least 9-7.


In 06' Brady didnt have any goto receiver as Moss wasnt there yet. Any players that were put in place was done by Belichek, not McD. McD had no say in what players were in place or drafted. Cassel still had to come right off the bench after not playing for 3 or more years. Sorry, im not buying this whole not knowing the system crap. If the Oline is struggling than it has to do with the coach who doesnt know how to utilize them which he knew when he came in. It just goes back to McD not being able to make adjustments.

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 05:56 PM
Let me ask something to the Orton haters who are arguing that we need a "playmaking" QB...I posted this in the mane:



I am NOT bashing Kyle Orton, in fact I feel bad for Orton because McDaniels wants to hold his hand and limit him, it's not the other way around. McDaniels is calling conservative bullshit plays, not Orton.

Terrible article. You're insinuating the extremes of both sides. Kyle Orton is a game manager that can't make plays. Jay Cutler is not a game manager that can make plays. Nobody wants either QB.

Give me:
Kurt Warner
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Mark Sanchez
Carson Palmer
Matt Schaub
Ben Roethlesberger
Peyton Manning
Vince Youing
Philip Rivers
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Donovon McNabb
Aaron Rodgers
Brett Favre
Matt Stafford
Drew Brees

over those 2 yahoo's anyday. All these guys can manage the game, AND make plays.

Also, Josh McDaniels is calling this offense much more conservative than he did with Matt Cassell. Tells you what he thinks about Orton. But then again, when Orton's just going to throw the ball away in safety 75% of the time in being aggressive, why bother even calling those plays.

underrated29
12-21-2009, 06:02 PM
Most of Y'all were OK with a winning record from before why not now..

I have no prob. with the win record.
What i have is a prob with is the play calling. Everything else is fine.



I will say this, josh is a perfect fit for the broncos. Because he is stubborn as a mule.

I believe because of his play calls that we have lost 2 games- possibly 3 or 4 that we should not have. Thats my problem. And i have been saying since the beginning of the season too. This is nothing new with me. I have been ragging on his run game specifically, but now its spreading, and in my amatuer opinion it sucks.

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 06:02 PM
Terrible article. You're insinuating the extremes of both sides. Kyle Orton is a game manager that can't make plays. Jay Cutler is not a game manager that can make plays. Nobody wants either QB.

Give me:
Kurt Warner
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Tom Brady
Mark Sanchez
Carson Palmer
Matt Schaub
Ben Roethlesberger
Peyton Manning
Vince Youing
Philip Rivers
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Donovon McNabb
Aaron Rodgers
Brett Favre
Matt Stafford
Drew Brees

over those 2 yahoo's anyday. All these guys can manage the game, AND make plays.

Also, Josh McDaniels is calling this offense much more conservative than he did with Matt Cassell. Tells you what he thinks about Orton. But then again, when Orton's just going to throw the ball away in safety 75% of the time in being aggressive, why bother even calling those plays.

do you not realize that Cassell also had 3 years behind Brady to have his ducks lined up.. while he may not have played much he still was able to set in the film room and see and listen to the coaches..

it was second nature to him when he stepped on the field the first time..

everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to totally understand Mikes system.. but lots have given up on Josh and KO after 14 games..:tsk:

The Glue Factory
12-21-2009, 06:03 PM
I am NOT bashing Kyle Orton, in fact I feel bad for Orton because McDaniels wants to hold his hand and limit him, it's not the other way around. McDaniels is calling conservative bullshit plays, not Orton.

And you can see how open or covered all the receivers are? Maybe the short passes aren't all called that way and instead the result of covered receivers. I'm not saying they are but I find it hilarious that people are defining the problems on this team when they don't have access to game tape from which to make an informed assessment.

I understand the sentiment in this thread, "We're frustrated with playing almost good enough to beat Indy, Wash, Oak, etc..." I get it. I'm there too. But take a step back people. We were (except one or two of us) despairing our lot and dreamed of finishing just 8-8.

GEM
12-21-2009, 06:05 PM
bears repeating..

mike wanted fast and smart OLINE and Dline..and super fast LBs..

it was a good thing before everyone got HUGE on the LOS and mauled us when we went to pocket passing scheme under humdinger..

the hand writing was on the wall then but took 2 more years to get Clady..

now we have our franchise OLT and maybe if he can stay healthy ORT.. Kuper looks like a keeper but OLG and Center re the weak spots and the games I have seen KO is getting pressure from the NT and DT which do not allow him to step up into the pocket when the DE's are turned loose..

that has to change and I think we will spend a couple of 2-4 draft choices on OG and center..

Josh has a vison and it may or may not get fixed this coming year but he is trying to overcome alot of bad drafting/FA years from before..

Most of Y'all were OK with a winning record from before why not now..

Clady isn't going to stay healthy running him out to the side and trying to have him catch a ball. Stupidity 101, put the best LT in the game today's knees on the line. We're just lucky he didn't end up on injured reserve. :rolleyes:

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 06:07 PM
I have no prob. with the win record.
What i have is a prob with is the play calling. Everything else is fine.



I will say this, josh is a perfect fit for the broncos. Because he is stubborn as a mule.

I believe because of his play calls that we have lost 2 games- possibly 3 or 4 that we should not have. Thats my problem. And i have been saying since the beginning of the season too. This is nothing new with me. I have been ragging on his run game specifically, but now its spreading, and in my amatuer opinion it sucks.


I agree we have lost a couple of games we should not have for whatever reason IMHO it is not executing the scheme..

does that mean we do not have the scheme down yet or the players to make it work..

how long will it take to fix that..

I have always said this was a rebuilding year and I was not expecting much this year other than to win home games, not get blown out, not to lose trap games and be competive in all games..

so far we are ahead of what we had in the past IMHO..

OAK has alot of talent just sucks at coaches and owner.. even sometime great talent can over come that.. we saw that yesterday..

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 06:10 PM
Clady isn't going to stay healthy running him out to the side and trying to have him catch a ball. Stupidity 101, put the best LT in the game today's knees on the line. We're just lucky he didn't end up on injured reserve. :rolleyes:

come on no worse than having him block down field..

it was gimmick play no harm done and had we won the game nobody would be doing anything but rave about it..

how many times did mike run tackle eligible plays?

weazel
12-21-2009, 06:13 PM
come on no worse than having him block down field..

it was gimmick play no harm done and had we won the game nobody would be doing anything but rave about it..

how many times did mike run tackle eligible plays?

11 times

Northman
12-21-2009, 06:13 PM
everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to totally understand Mikes system.. but lots have given up on Josh and KO after 14 games..:tsk:

A lot of the leeway for Jay was because he was a rookie. Jay never had the time to sit behind anyone and learn. He was learning as he was going. Orton, although having not started every game at least had the luxury to sit and learn from the bench and had/has more vet experience than Jay does. Jay is learning a new system in Chicago and still has more TD passes than Orton. And all this working with so-so wideouts and a coach who is refusing to use his RB to help him out. Doesnt exclude Jay from his tendency to turn the ball over but at the end of the day the plays have to be made from the Qb in the redzone. The last two weeks have been absolute failures in that regard from our QB. Like i said, if your right than there should be no problem winning the division and making the playoffs next year. If we dont, then....

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 06:14 PM
do you not realize that Cassell also had 3 years behind Brady to have his ducks lined up.. while he may not have played much he still was able to set in the film room and see and listen to the coaches..

That's nothing on Orton's 6 years or whatever. The dude hasn't changed as a QB in 6 years. He's a game manager. He has an inability to make plays. It isn't that hard to understand really.


it was second nature to him when he stepped on the field the first time..

everyone was willing to give jay up to three years to totally understand Mikes system.. but lots have given up on Josh and KO after 14 games..:tsk:

Do you honestly think that 4-6 years in the league and 14 starts for Denver, Orton is all of a sudden going to change the way he plays the game?

I sure as hell don't wanna wait around hoping for that to happen anytime soon.

GEM
12-21-2009, 06:14 PM
come on no worse than having him block down field..

it was gimmick play no harm done and had we won the game nobody would be doing anything but rave about it..

how many times did mike run tackle eligible plays?

I'm not looking back at Mike and his team. I am looking forward to McD and his. I didn't like it, I don't find the payoff worth the risk.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 06:36 PM
That's nothing on Orton's 6 years or whatever. The dude hasn't changed as a QB in 6 years. He's a game manager. He has an inability to make plays. It isn't that hard to understand really.


Do you honestly think that 4-6 years in the league and 14 starts for Denver, Orton is all of a sudden going to change the way he plays the game?

I sure as hell don't wanna wait around hoping for that to happen anytime soon.

This is effectively only Orton's third year on the field. And his game has
progressively changed. He was better last year than he was his rookie year,
and he is better this year than he was last year. I know: I have seen
considerable amounts of all three years.

I also don't understand the cogintive inability of some to realize that Orton
has played his entire career against incredible obstacles. We have been over
and over and over these obstacles, time and time and time again, ad nauseam.

While some, with these cognitive limitations, seemingly fail to take these
obstacles into consideration when "evaluating" Orton's performances on the
field, I have become increasingly impressed with him because of them.

Orton will be better next year than he has this year (and he has been good
this year) because he will have a year in the new system under his belt, and
he will have played a year with the O-line, receivers, and RBs--not to mention
that he will be more experienced. And healthier.

Orton has the potential to become a "franchise" QB and will do so, IMO, if
given an honest chance--which I believe McDaniels intends to do . . .

-----

topscribe
12-21-2009, 06:44 PM
A lot of the leeway for Jay was because he was a rookie. Jay never had the time to sit behind anyone and learn. He was learning as he was going. Orton, although having not started every game at least had the luxury to sit and learn from the bench and had/has more vet experience than Jay does. Jay is learning a new system in Chicago and still has more TD passes than Orton. And all this working with so-so wideouts and a coach who is refusing to use his RB to help him out. Doesnt exclude Jay from his tendency to turn the ball over but at the end of the day the plays have to be made from the Qb in the redzone. The last two weeks have been absolute failures in that regard from our QB. Like i said, if your right than there should be no problem winning the division and making the playoffs next year. If we dont, then....

You cannot learn how to tend bar by sitting on the other side with a beer in
your hand. Several times, if you have listened to any pressers and interviews,
we have heard that a player learns on the field. Otherwise, from my 50+ years
of watching pro ball, I should be able to go out and excel at any position on
the field.

Jay had far better coaching than Kyle did. Far better. Shanahan coached the
likes of Montana, Young, Kubiak, Griese, Plummer, and Elway. Jay had a QB
coach who had no right to be on the field.

To say that Orton was in a better position than Jay is not to know . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 06:55 PM
This is effectively only Orton's third year on the field. And his game has
progressively changed. He was better last year than he was his rookie year,
and he is better this year than he was last year. I know: I have seen
considerable amounts of all three years.

I also don't understand the cogintive inability of some to realize that Orton
has played his entire career against incredible obstacles. We have been over
and over and over these obstacles, time and time and time again, ad nauseam.

While some, with these cognitive limitations, seemingly fail to take these
obstacles into consideration when "evaluating" Orton's performances on the
field, I have become increasingly impressed with him because of them.

Orton will be better next year than he has this year (and he has been good
this year) because he will have a year in the new system under his belt, and
he will have played a year with the O-line, receivers, and RBs--not to mention
that he will be more experienced. And healthier.

Orton has the potential to become a "franchise" QB and will do so, IMO, if
given an honest chance--which I believe McDaniels intends to do . . .

-----

He's been in the league long enough, whether learning behind doors or playing, to know what you're going to get from him.

He's not a bad QB by any means. He's the kind of QB you look for in a backup. Efficient, takes care of the ball, and manages the game.

I want a QB that can win us games. Orton doesn't wiun us games. He doesn't lose games. There's a huge difference of mentality between the 2 and I love the aggressive approach, and not passive one.

It's a matter of opinion from whatever side your choosing to look at the argument.

elsid13
12-21-2009, 06:56 PM
Brady and Cassell didn't have to deal with a patchwork team and undersized linemen either.




As of 2 weeks ago that was attained, being guaranteed another non-losing season. With a game against KC in Denver, I think we end the year at least 9-7.

NE line averages 306, Denver 302. Real undersized.

claymore
12-21-2009, 07:03 PM
NE line averages 306, Denver 302. Real undersized.

I was going to check that out today but got to lazy. I dont think its size as much as the guys we have were groomed from birth almost in the ZBS.

They were NFL elite at that, but maybe not even draftable at normal spread stuff.

elsid13
12-21-2009, 07:08 PM
I was going to check that out today but got to lazy. I dont think its size as much as the guys we have were groomed from birth almost in the ZBS.

They were NFL elite at that, but maybe not even draftable at normal spread stuff.

That not really true.

Clady, Kuper and Harris have size and mobility to play in either power blocking or zone system. While Weigman played in man blocking scheme in KC.

People forget this system requires linemen with ability to move because of all the traps and pulls it requires. There is a fair amount ZBS built into it, too. The only difference is McDaniels doesn't like the back side linemen cutting the defender down, like Gibbs and Dennison taught.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 07:13 PM
He's been in the league long enough, whether learning behind doors or playing, to know what you're going to get from him.

He's not a bad QB by any means. He's the kind of QB you look for in a backup. Efficient, takes care of the ball, and manages the game.

I want a QB that can win us games. Orton doesn't wiun us games. He doesn't lose games. There's a huge difference of mentality between the 2 and I love the aggressive approach, and not passive one.

It's a matter of opinion from whatever side your choosing to look at the argument.

Okay, let's go over this one more time:

1. Had inferior coaching at Chicago
2. Played with inferior line and wide receivers
3. "Complemented" by #27 ranked running game at Chicago
4. Played last half of last season with high ankle sprain
5. Playing this season in a new system--to all the team, not just him
6. Playing with inconsistent running game
7. Playing behind a suddenly often porous O-line
8. Played the first few games with a severely dislocated finger in this throwing hand
9. Has played the last few games on a high ankle sprain

Now, Orton is not going to take on the inability to win games just because
you have declared it. That is something you and a couple others keep saying
here on the board. You never accompany it with any documentation. You just
say it, and it's supposed to be gospel because you said so. That is the
impression I am getting.

Now, I personally saw him win games last year. And this year, He won the NE game
with not one, but two drives starting inside his own 10-yard line. He won the Dallas
game with a 51-yard pass to Brandon Marshall.

You say, without documentation, that Orton cannot win games. Yet such
documentation exists, vividly showing that he has won games . . .

Orton has yet to play without a bunch of obstacles inhibiting him, yet he still
has done a good job. Yes, he will get better. No, we have not see his best.
Of that, I am assured . . .

-----

topscribe
12-21-2009, 07:18 PM
I was going to check that out today but got to lazy. I dont think its size as much as the guys we have were groomed from birth almost in the ZBS.

They were NFL elite at that, but maybe not even draftable at normal spread stuff.

Nah, it's size, now that they are old. I'm talking about Wiegmann (285) and
Hamilton (290). Hochstein (305) is a little bigger, but he's a career backup.

It is true that Clady, Harris, and Kuper belong in the "elite" classification. But
there is a big hole, IMO, at C and LG (and RT with Harris out, of course, but
that will be cured in the offseason).

-----

topscribe
12-21-2009, 07:40 PM
NOBODY in the league fears this guy.

Oh? And how many in the league have you talked to?

-----

The Glue Factory
12-21-2009, 07:41 PM
NE line averages 306, Denver 302. Real undersized.

Very well. I sit corrected. Brady and Cassell didn't have to work with a patchwork team or rookie HC. Like it or not ALL rookies make mistakes that aren't repeated. McDaniels has a learning curve too and complaining about it isn't going to change the fact that he is learning. Nor will it go away by declaring our rookie HC shouldn't have a learning curve. Even Shanahan didn't have a very good outing as a rookie HC.

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 07:54 PM
Okay, let's go over this one more time:

1. Had inferior coaching at Chicago
2. Played with inferior line and wide receivers
3. "Complemented" by #27 ranked running game at Chicago
4. Played last half of last season with high ankle sprain
5. Playing this season in a new system--to all the team, not just him
6. Playing with inconsistent running game
7. Playing behind a suddenly often porous O-line
8. Played the first few games with a severely dislocated finger in this throwing hand
9. Has played the last few games on a high ankle sprain

Now, Orton is not going to take on the inability to win games just because
you have declared it. That is something you and a couple others keep saying
here on the board. You never accompany it with any documentation. You just
say it, and it's supposed to be gospel because you said so. That is the
impression I am getting.

Now, I personally saw him win games last year. And this year, He won the NE game
with not one, but two drives starting inside his own 10-yard line. He won the Dallas
game with a 51-yard pass to Brandon Marshall.

You say, without documentation, that Orton cannot win games. Yet such
documentation exists, vividly showing that he has won games . . .

Orton has yet to play without a bunch of obstacles inhibiting him, yet he still
has done a good job. Yes, he will get better. No, we have not see his best.
Of that, I am assured . . .

-----

I can give you the New England game.

I can't give you the Dallas game, because it;s one play. 1 play. If a Qb can't make one play throughout the course of the game, he has no business in the NFL.

One thing we can probably both agree on. Denver's offense has some major problems, and nobody seems to know how to fix it, or where the problem lies. I think that's worse than having a guy like Orton our QB.

Dreadnought
12-21-2009, 07:56 PM
Very well. I sit corrected. Brady and Cassell didn't have to work with a patchwork team or rookie HC. Like it or not ALL rookies make mistakes that aren't repeated. McDaniels has a learning curve too and complaining about it isn't going to change the fact that he is learning. Nor will it go away by declaring our rookie HC shouldn't have a learning curve. Even Shanahan didn't have a very good outing as a rookie HC.

This is nothing like a "patchwork team" though, and we have been comparatively pretty injury free apart from Harris. There was in fact a superb offense already in place - a rarity for an incoming coach, who is more likely to inherit some mess like the Browns, Rams, or Lions. This excuse is hogwash. The offense has now become a team liability, and that is entirely through McD's doing. Now we are watching the team in reverse overall, and a coach who is too stubborn to correct it if the needed corrections don't align with his own view of reality. That tells me he will probably fail, and we would get to go through the Nightmare scenario again in one to two years.

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 07:57 PM
Very well. I sit corrected. Brady and Cassell didn't have to work with a patchwork team or rookie HC. Like it or not ALL rookies make mistakes that aren't repeated. McDaniels has a learning curve too and complaining about it isn't going to change the fact that he is learning. Nor will it go away by declaring our rookie HC shouldn't have a learning curve. Even Shanahan didn't have a very good outing as a rookie HC.

Shanahan didn't have a very good outing his final 10 years with the exception of the 1.

I still love McDaniels. He seems to stay behind Orton, so all I can oiffer is a biased opinion and not question McDaniels.

But if this offense isn't significantly better next year and Orton is our QB, I will really start questioning McDaniels. Moreso because he seems to think that Orton can be our QB.

Dreadnought
12-21-2009, 07:59 PM
Shanahan didn't have a very good outing his final 10 years with the exception of the 1.

I still love McDaniels. He seems to stay behind Orton, so all I can oiffer is a biased opinion and not question McDaniels.

But if this offense isn't significantly better next year and Orton is our QB, I will really start questioning McDaniels. Moreso because he seems to think that Orton can be our QB.

Shanahan > McDaniels. I wish I had a friggin' Time Machine...

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 08:04 PM
Shanahan > McDaniels. I wish I had a friggin' Time Machine...

Shanahan's overrated.

1 playoff win in the last 10 years.

If Bowlen did the correct thing, and fired Shanahan 6 years ago when he should have, Denver would be well beyond this mess.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 08:08 PM
I can give you the New England game.

I can't give you the Dallas game, because it;s one play. 1 play. If a Qb can't make one play throughout the course of the game, he has no business in the NFL.

One thing we can probably both agree on. Denver's offense has some major problems, and nobody seems to know how to fix it, or where the problem lies. I think that's worse than having a guy like Orton our QB.

One play? What are you talking about? First, that is often how a QB wins a
game. That only reinforces just how much Orton did win that game. Granted,
Marshall made an amazing TD run out of it, but Orton was on the delivering
end of it.

But Silk, that one play was on top of a 20/29, 243 yd, 2 TD, 0 INT day that
gave him a 117.5 QB rating.

*sheesh*

-----

topscribe
12-21-2009, 08:09 PM
Shanahan didn't have a very good outing his final 10 years with the exception of the 1.

I still love McDaniels. He seems to stay behind Orton, so all I can oiffer is a biased opinion and not question McDaniels.

But if this offense isn't significantly better next year and Orton is our QB, I will really start questioning McDaniels. Moreso because he seems to think that Orton can be our QB.

I agree: If the offense is not better next year, I will join you in that . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 08:13 PM
One play? What are you talking about? First, that is often how a QB wins a
game. That only reinforces just how much Orton did win that game. Granted,
Marshall made an amazing TD run out of it, but Orton was on the delivering
end of it.

But Silk, that one play was on top of a 20/29, 243 yd, 2 TD, 0 INT day that
gave him a 117.5 QB rating.

*sheesh*

-----

That's how good the system is when it's working.

I mean c'mon. Tell me you have not seen Marshall catch the ball at his shoelaces on screens where he's 10 feet away from the QB. Orton, who's supposed to be accurate, can't even get those right half the time.

Again, Orton isn't a bad QB. But to think that he can QB a team that is a perrenniel contender for the Lombardi trophy? C'mon. He isn't anywhere in the ball park as gus like Brees/Manning/Brady/Warner/Manning/Rivers/Roethlesberger...etcc...

He!!, Orton isn't even in the same ball park as guys like Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, etc.

Speaking of Aaron Rodgers, watch him play behind an oline that's worse than Denver's. The Packers got an absolute steal with him, and he's going to be the next great QB.

Medford Bronco
12-21-2009, 08:20 PM
What gets me is that, all the while Orton was completing 19/34 for 278 yards
and no INTs, the offensive line and defensive line were playing matador nearly
the whole game. And still, we have people calling for Orton's head . . . :confused:

If you want to bitch and moan, why don't you address the team's failures
instead of its strong points?

-----

I agree. He was basically running for his life at times.

IF mcdaniels no longers wants the ZB system. Get all new o lineman besides Clady after this year. These guys cant be traditional blockers like he had in NE right now. They just cant handle a good pass rush at this time.

That being said. We still could squeak in at 9-7 to play Gods team in Foxboro. That would be awesome.. Go Broncos

topscribe
12-21-2009, 08:23 PM
That's how good the system is when it's working.

I mean c'mon. Tell me you have not seen Marshall catch the ball at his shoelaces on screens where he's 10 feet away from the QB. Orton, who's supposed to be accurate, can't even get those right half the time.

Again, Orton isn't a bad QB. But to think that he can QB a team that is a perrenniel contender for the Lombardi trophy? C'mon. He isn't anywhere in the ball park as gus like Brees/Manning/Brady/Warner/Manning/Rivers/Roethlesberger...etcc...

He!!, Orton isn't even in the same ball park as guys like Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, etc.

Speaking of Aaron Rodgers, watch him play behind an oline that's worse than Denver's. The Packers got an absolute steal with him, and he's going to be the next great QB.

I guess you've never seen Manning or Brady play? You've never seen receivers
reach down, behind them, or have to dive for their passes? I have. Have you
ever played in a football game, at least on the college level? I have. The QB
often has to make them dive, or catch behind them, or at their shoe tops
because there are defenders ready to pick off the "perfect" pass. Not all of
such passes are from inaccuracy, regardless of who is at QB. In fact, it often
is a display of accuracy. But don't just believe me: Marshall himself said he
was "amazed" at Orton's ball placement.

I'm not saying that it isn't the case of a little bit of inaccuracy in every case,
Silk. But we can't judge from just seeing where the pass went. We need to
dig a bit deeper and evaluate why it went there.

And I do watch the Packers. I have watched them ever since, oh, 1955 or so.
And they do not have a "worse" O-line than Denver's at this point. Did you not
watch Denver's games against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, SD (2nd game), or Indy?
Or Oakland yesterday?



Nonetheless, if you want to start comparing quarterbacks, I'm not playing. I'm
talking about Orton. ;)

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topscribe
12-21-2009, 08:25 PM
I agree. He was basically running for his life at times.

IF mcdaniels no longers wants the ZB system. Get all new o lineman besides Clady after this year. These guys cant be traditional blockers like he had in NE right now. They just cant handle a good pass rush at this time.

That being said. We still could squeak in at 9-7 to play Gods team in Foxboro. That would be awesome.. Go Broncos

Well no, I'm not about to say McDaniels should jettison Harris or Kuper. Not even.

But I do believe he needs to make C and LG the priority in the offseason, until he
has those positions satisfied . . .

. . . And don't dismiss altogether the possibility of 10-6. This is one strange
team this year . . . strange enough to actually win in Philly . . .

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Medford Bronco
12-21-2009, 08:27 PM
Well no, I'm not about to say McDaniels should jettison Harris or Kuper. Not even.

But I do believe he needs to make C and LG the priority in the offseason, until he
has those positions satisfied . . .

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okay maybe an exaggeration but you know what I mean;)

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 08:53 PM
I guess you've never seen Manning or Brady play? You've never seen receivers
reach down, behind them, or have to dive for their passes? I have. Have you
ever played in a football game, at least on the college level? I have. The QB
often has to make them dive, or catch behind them, or at their shoe tops
because there are defenders ready to pick off the "perfect" pass. Not all of
such passes are from inaccuracy, regardless of who is at QB. In fact, it often
is a display of accuracy. But don't just believe me: Marshall himself said he
was "amazed" at Orton's ball placement.


Tops I think you're missing the point. Manning and Brady can throw balls that force their Wr's reach. Why? because they engineer the offense, and make plays. They move the ball down the field. They don't have to be great in one area, because they are so very very good in all areas.

Kyle Orton doesn't have that luxery.

I'm not saying that it isn't the case of a little bit of inaccuracy in every case,
Silk. But we can't judge from just seeing where the pass went. We need to
dig a bit deeper and evaluate why it went there.


And I do watch the Packers. I have watched them ever since, oh, 1955 or so.
And they do not have a "worse" O-line than Denver's at this point. Did you not
watch Denver's games against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, SD (2nd game), or Indy?
Or Oakland yesterday?





-----


Green Bay has arguably the worst oline in the NFL. Even with Denver's injuries, they are still better than Green Bay's.

I'm just saying, I think the state of our organization sucks right now. We're going through transistion (which actually has gone well), our offense is full of playmakers and has a good mix of serious talent and Pro Bowlers, and it's godforsakenly horrible.

We have the best rookie RB in the NFL, a top 5 WR in the NFL, a plethora of other recieving options that 27-30 other teams can't top, arguably the best LT in the game, a Pro Bowl C, and our offense isn't even a top 20 offense, that's how bad it is as a whole. And let's not talk about injuries because that's irrelevent, being every team is going through it.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:01 PM
Tops I think you're missing the point. Manning and Brady can throw balls that force their Wr's reach. Why? because they engineer the offense, and make plays. They move the ball down the field. They don't have to be great in one area, because they are so very very good in all areas.

Kyle Orton doesn't have that luxery.

I'm not saying that it isn't the case of a little bit of inaccuracy in every case,
Silk. But we can't judge from just seeing where the pass went. We need to
dig a bit deeper and evaluate why it went there.



Green Bay has arguably the worst oline in the NFL. Even with Denver's injuries, they are still better than Green Bay's.

I'm just saying, I think the state of our organization sucks right now. We're going through transistion (which actually has gone well), our offense is full of playmakers and has a good mix of serious talent and Pro Bowlers, and it's godforsakenly horrible.

We have the best rookie RB in the NFL, a top 5 WR in the NFL, a plethora of other recieving options that 27-30 other teams can't top, arguably the best LT in the game, a Pro Bowl C, and our offense isn't even a top 20 offense, that's how bad it is as a whole. And let's not talk about injuries because that's irrelevent, being every team is going through it.

No, let's do talk about injuries if it hampers an individual player's performance.
I'm not talking about what every team is going through. I'm talking about Kyle
Orton. Which makes me think you are missing the point, which is, if he can
play this well on a high ankle sprain--which he has played for nearly a full year
out of his nearly three years on the field--and a severely dislocated finger on
his throwing hand--which he did for nearly another one-half of a year--and
play as well has he has, that impresses me deeply and makes me look forward
to how well he can play, healthy, with one season under his belt in this
system that is so new to him this year.

Now, that's Kyle Orton. Not Manning. Not Brady. Not Rothlisberger. Not
Rodgers. Kyle Orton.

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Northman
12-21-2009, 09:01 PM
To say that Orton was in a better position than Jay is not to know . . .

-----

Didnt you just say that a player learns best when he is on the field? Orton has been on the field so whats the problem? Is McD not a good coach? Your contradicting yourself here.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 09:04 PM
I think Kyle's injuries are helping him. Its been giving him excuses from some fans for years now.

Northman
12-21-2009, 09:05 PM
But if this offense isn't significantly better next year and Orton is our QB, I will really start questioning McDaniels. Moreso because he seems to think that Orton can be our QB.

If it doesnt improve DRASTICALLY there will be a lot of people with mud on their face.

silkamilkamonico
12-21-2009, 09:05 PM
No, let's do talk about injuries if it hampers an individual player's performance.
I'm not talking about what every team is going through. I'm talking about Kyle
Orton. Which makes me think you are missing the point, which is, if he can
play this well on a high ankle sprain--which he has played for nearly a full year
out of his nearly three years on the field--and a severely dislocated finger on
his throwing hand--which he did for nearly another one-half of a year--and
play as well has he has, that impresses me deeply and makes me look forward
to how well he can play, healthy, with one season under his belt in this
system that is so new to him this year.

Now, that's Kyle Orton. Not Manning. Not Brady. Not Rothlisberger. Not
Rodgers. Kyle Orton.

-----

Seems to me then that Kyle Orton is a really good QB who's just injury prone, never really healthy and averages out to be a descent QB.

If that's the case, McDaniels better look for someone that can stay a little healthier during the offseason.

At some point you have to face the music.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:07 PM
Didnt you just say that a player learns best when he is on the field? Orton has been on the field so whats the problem? Is McD not a good coach? Your contradicting yourself here.

How long has Orton been on the field for the Broncos in this system that is new
to both him and the entire team? 5 years? 10 years? 2 years? No, not even one
(1) year yet. And in what state of health?

And are you saying Orton has done a bad job? It looks pretty good to me,
considering he played the first several games with a severely dislocated finger
on is throwing hand and the past several games on a high ankle sprain, while
his O-line has often given him precious little time and the RBs have often
produced precious few yards, especially in short yardage and the red zone.

Yessir, I believe he has done a pretty good job, and I am looking forward to
how much better he will do next year . . .

-----

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:11 PM
Seems to me then that Kyle Orton is a really good QB who's just injury prone, never really healthy and averages out to be a descent QB.

If that's the case, McDaniels better look for someone that can stay a little healthier during the offseason.

At some point you have to face the music.

Oh? And what do you consider "injury prone"? What I consider "injury prone" is
recurrent hamstrings or owies from being so fragile. A high ankle sprain from a
300-pound monster landing on it is not injury prone. Neither is a dislocation so
severe that the bone tears through the skin.

But the fact he has played through them tells me he is tougher than hell. I can
also see how it has limited what he can do over when he is healthy. But then,
I try to give a guy a break, y'know? :coffee:

And, I repeat, Orton has done a good job, despite injury. And I have a season
full of games to document that. So I also don't know what you mean by
"decent."

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Northman
12-21-2009, 09:16 PM
How long has Orton been on the field for the Broncos in this system that is new
to both him and the entire team? 5 years? 10 years? 2 years? No, not even one
(1) year yet. And in what state of health?

And are you saying Orton has done a bad job? It looks pretty good to me,
considering he played the first several games with a severely dislocated finger
on is throwing hand and the past several games on a high ankle sprain, while
his O-line has often given him precious little time and the RBs have often
produced precious few yards, especially in short yardage and the red zone.

Yessir, I believe he has done a pretty good job, and I am looking forward to
how much better he will do next year . . .

-----


The system is not that complex. Sorry, you can sell that garbage elsewhere. Especially since guys like Cassel and Brady had ZERO problems picking it up in their first years of playing in it.

Secondly, ive supported Orton 100% but unlike some on here i understand his limitations. He is not "elite" Top. He will never be "elite". So, as ive stated a 100 times already if your going to bank the farm on Orton being the longterm solution than you need to build the team around him and "hope" that it becomes the next 2000 Ravens which doesnt happen very often. And you simply cannot bank on that too happen. So, you need to find a balance and get a Qb who when the chips are down (Indy/Oakland) pick up the slack and get the team in the endzone to help win ballgames. But Orton is not that kind of guy. Oh i know, he had a couple of nice drives in the NE game but all of sudden he cant do it anymore? Please. Even the sun shines on a monkey's ass every once in a while. And the injury shit just needs to stop already. Its not like the guy is playing with a broken leg or from a shark attack bite. Virtually every QB has played with something broken or bruised so dont pretend that Orton is the only to do that. Seriously. :lol:

As i stated previously, Im counting on Orton lighting it up next year since Brady threw 50 TD's in his second year. If Orton cant even get 30 we will have this discussion again mate. :salute:

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:19 PM
The system is not that complex. Sorry, you can sell that garbage elsewhere. Especially since guys like Cassel and Brady had ZERO problems picking it up in their first years of playing in it.

Secondly, ive supported Orton 100% but unlike some on here i understand his limitations. He is not "elite" Top. He will never be "elite". So, as ive stated a 100 times already if your going to bank the farm on Orton being the longterm solution than you need to build the team around him and "hope" that it becomes the next 2000 Ravens which doesnt happen very often. And you simply cannot bank on that too happen. So, you need to find a balance and get a Qb who when the chips are down (Indy/Oakland) pick up the slack and get the team in the endzone to help win ballgames. But Orton is not that kind of guy. Oh i know, he had a couple of nice drives in the NE game but all of sudden he cant do it anymore? Please. Even the sun shines on a monkey's ass every once in a while. And the injury shit just needs to stop already. Its not like the guy is playing with a broken leg or from a shark attack bite. Virtually every QB has played with something broken or bruised so dont pretend that Orton is the only to do that. Seriously. :lol:

As i stated previously, Im counting on Orton lighting it up next year since Brady threw 50 TD's in his second year. If Orton cant even get 30 we will have this discussion again mate. :salute:

Where the **** did I say Orton was "elite"? What is "elite"?

Will you please stop putting words in my mouth then inflating them? I'm not
doing anything more than presenting some damned positive aspects of his
play. Shit. I never mentioned Brady or Manining or Brees or Rivers. I never
used the word "elite." I only said Orton could be a good QB.

What the hell? Say something positive, and all the sudden the wolves come out.

Damn.


And I am the only one who has presented any documentation.

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Northman
12-21-2009, 09:22 PM
Where the **** did I say Orton was "elite"? What is "elite"?

Will you please stop putting words in my mouth then inflating them? I'm not
doing anything more than presenting some damned positive aspects of his
play. Shit. I never mentioned Brady or Manining or Brees or Rivers. I never
used the word "elite." I only said Orton could be a good QB.

What the hell? Say something positive, and all the sudden the wolves come out.

Damn.

-----

Come on. Ive been positive about his game managing abilities but then when i mention that we still need a better QB in place all of sudden i get accused of not knowing what im talking about. Talk about wolves feeding on the young.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 09:22 PM
I dont agree with Silk very much.. and certainly don't agree with the state in which Shanahan left this team... BUT... he was dead on with

"...Again, Orton isn't a bad QB. But to think that he can QB a team that is a perrenniel contender for the Lombardi trophy?..."

Orton is a stop-gap QB at best. There are VERY few teams in the NFL that would dare give him a long-term contract because he isn't MEANT to be a long-term answer. He's purely a guy you put in, UNTIL, you find a starter. Orton, in 2 years, will be a back-up in the NFL.... and nothing more. He'll be a pretty good back-up though. He'll be like Kerry Collins and Neil Odonnell. He'll be a good guy to have on the team, like Chris Redman is to the Falcons right now.

Is it a knock to say the guy is good enough to be one of the best back-ups in the National Football League? I don't know, depends on your perspective. But I think thats the reality. Once he is released from Denver (probably after next season, if NOT this offseason)...that will be two teams that have let him go from their starting roster. How many NFL QBs continue to start after that?

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:25 PM
Come on. Ive been positive about his game managing abilities but then when i mention that we still need a better QB in place all of sudden i get accused of not knowing what im talking about. Talk about wolves feeding on the young.

And when I say I have the opinion that we don't need a "better" QB, I get
accused of not knowing what I'm talking about. Only the haters are allowed
their opinions on this board. Anything positive gets attacked.

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Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 09:29 PM
I'd like to post a VERy definitive reply that there was THREADS asking "where is Ravage at" simply because I had "negative" things to say about this team and Orton prior to the season. Please... PLEASE stop making it sound as if the "positive" posters get attacked on this MB. Thats being absolutely absurdly blind.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:30 PM
I dont agree with Silk very much.. and certainly don't agree with the state in which Shanahan left this team... BUT... he was dead on with

"...Again, Orton isn't a bad QB. But to think that he can QB a team that is a perrenniel contender for the Lombardi trophy?..."

Orton is a stop-gap QB at best. There are VERY few teams in the NFL that would dare give him a long-term contract because he isn't MEANT to be a long-term answer. He's purely a guy you put in, UNTIL, you find a starter. Orton, in 2 years, will be a back-up in the NFL.... and nothing more. He'll be a pretty good back-up though. He'll be like Kerry Collins and Neil Odonnell. He'll be a good guy to have on the team, like Chris Redman is to the Falcons right now.

Is it a knock to say the guy is good enough to be one of the best back-ups in the National Football League? I don't know, depends on your perspective. But I think thats the reality. Once he is released from Denver (probably after next season, if NOT this offseason)...that will be two teams that have let him go from their starting roster. How many NFL QBs continue to start after that?

See, here is exactly what I mean. ^^^

Declaration without documentation . . . :coffee:

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Northman
12-21-2009, 09:30 PM
And when I say I have the opinion that we don't need a "better" QB, I get
accused of not knowing what I'm talking about. Only the haters are allowed
their opinions on this board. Anything positive gets attacked.

-----

I never said you couldnt have your opinion. I just dont agree with it. But, im on board with seeing what Orton and McD do next year. I certainly expect a division title and playoff appearance along with a MUCH better offensive product. For the last few years we have had good defense, bad offense, good offense, bad defense, and so on. If you truly believe that Orton is the answer than all i can say is lets hope your are right. I would much rather you be right than me but i can only go on what i have observed from Orton in his career as a starting QB.

Northman
12-21-2009, 09:31 PM
I'd like to post a VERy definitive reply that there was THREADS asking "where is Ravage at" simply because I had "negative" things to say about this team and Orton prior to the season. Please... PLEASE stop making it sound as if the "positive" posters get attacked on this MB. Thats being absolutely absurdly blind.

Yea, but i did that out of love man. :D

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:32 PM
I never said you couldnt have your opinion. I just dont agree with it. But, im on board with seeing what Orton and McD do next year. I certainly expect a division title and playoff appearance along with a MUCH better offensive product. For the last few years we have had good defense, bad offense, good offense, bad defense, and so on. If you truly believe that Orton is the answer than all i can say is lets hope your are right. I would much rather you be right than me but i can only go on what i have observed from Orton in his career as a starting QB.

I honestly do believe Orton can be the answer. And I could be wrong.

So we both hope I'm right . . .

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Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 09:36 PM
See, here is exactly what I mean. ^^^

Declaration without documentation . . . :coffee:

-----

Again.. without documentation?? :lol: Seriously?? What documentation would you want me to provide with my prediction of the events to come? Seriously, Top.. come on. Cut this line of arguing out. I was right about Plummer, and making the same statement here about Orton. We'll see if I'm wrong. :coffee:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 09:37 PM
It seems like since 2005 we can not get a complete team at all.

2006 1st half of the season = Offense stunk, Defense ruled
2006 2nd half of the season = Offense made improvements, Defense regressed
2007 = Offense was average, Defense was terrible
2008 = Offense was good, Defense was one of the worst the NFL had ever seen
2009 = Offense has been below average, Defense has been above average


We just can not seem to get the whole team to play good football all year long. It has been one side carrying the whole team.

LS, did you REALLY expect a complete team, in 4mos. work?

REALLY? :rolleyes:

All the earlier seasons were under Shanny.
How 'bout we give McD a fighting chance.

Huh?

What say ya? :elefant:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 09:45 PM
I like the offense. I just don't think we have the pieces set to make it effective.

We can't score in the redzone because we can't run the ball, and in fear of turning the ball over, Orton throws the ball in the stands. That's what you get with an efficient QB who's afraid to turn the ball over.

I'm also sick and tired of Orton and his inability to make quick decisions. I can see why McDaniels feels handcuffed in calling offensive plays. The line isn't strong and the minute Orton sees someone 4 feet away from him he just falls down.

All the great QB's have the ability to manipulate the pocket to a degree, and move around long enough to make a play. Aaron Rodgers is a perfect example of that. Orton is a perfect example of not being able to do that.

You want an efficient QB like Orton, you better make damn sure everything around him is perfect. I personally don't want to bank the success of the offense on not having any injuries or breakdowns.

And the only thing I hatge about watching the screen plays is Orton throwing at the feet of a stationary WR 10 yards away from him. Unbelievable.

Did you see what he had to work with at Chicago for an Oline? ANYBODY would be shellshocked!

Give him time. He's admitted he's still learning the system. When he's not "thinking" and just reacting, he'll do alot better, imo.
And that frickin' Oline has GOT to start getting stouter! They looked intimidated vs. Oak's Dline. That's unforgiveable!

topscribe
12-21-2009, 09:56 PM
Again.. without documentation?? :lol: Seriously?? What documentation would you want me to provide with my prediction of the events to come? Seriously, Top.. come on. Cut this line of arguing out. I was right about Plummer, and making the same statement here about Orton. We'll see if I'm wrong. :coffee:

Right about Plummer? Team went to playoffs every year he finished the season?

One (1) playoff season in the 5 years before he came?

None since his departure?

And you were right about Plummer? :pound:

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rcsodak
12-21-2009, 09:59 PM
I know I'll catch heat but I do blame Orton more than anyone else. I saw Orton go down with a one handed push from a defensive lineman. No matter what you think about Orton, he got outplayed by Charlie F'n Frye yesterday. When he got pressure, he'd move around in the pocket to buy time. Orton NEVER does, EVER! Maybe having just a little bit of pocket awareness and mobility is too much to ask? Orton is Drew Bledsoe without the arm. Dan Marino was more mobile than Orton.

Silky said it best in his earlier post that our offense is so ridiculously simplified because of Orton. McD doesn't TRUST him to go downfield. Even on third down, he almost never throws beyond the sticks. He's a check down machine. Half the guys on this board could do what Orton has done so far in this offense - I CAN THROW A BUBBLE SCREEN ON EVERY PLAY AND LET MARSHALL RUN FOR 7 YARDS! I can dive into the back of the O-line on 3rd and one and not pick up the first down!

I do blame Orton for our offensive woes and will continue to do so. He's ineffective at running the offense, period. He got all the credit when we were 6-0 for being so "careful" with the football and such a good game manager. Now he gets the credit for being 2-6. This is pretty much the same O-line from last year that gave up so few sacks, the difference... ORTON!

For everyone out there who thinks Orton is the right fit let me ask you this, Where would Orton be without Marshall? For the last 4 weeks almost all of his passing stats are because of Marshall making plays with his legs or huge catches on poorly thrown balls. 200 of Orton's 277 yds vs Indy were 3 yard passes to Marshall that he made plays out of. Had we traded Marshall away like so many people wanted to, where would Orton be? This isn't "synergy" between the two like Brady and Welker or Manning and Wayne, this is "let me just throw it in Marshall's direction and hope he makes a play".

It is Orton. Plain and simple. Watch this guy play, I mean really watch him. NOBODY in the league fears this guy. EVERY team has the same game plan vs us, stop the run and force Orton to beat you because he can't. It's the truth people, everyone seems to know it but us.

Wow. Where to start....

.....
.....
.....
.....
.....

*bolded areas, in order*
"Charlie F'n Frye", nor all 3 COMBINED, had 1/2 the yardage KO did.
*strike 1*
link? Was/Nyg games prove you wrong.
*swing-n-miss*
Same Oline (but not really, is it), but different blocking scheme.
*foul ball*
Crock-a-shit! Exaggerate much? :rolleyes:
*SWING AND A MISS! STRRRRRRIKE 3!!!!!!*

.....next. :coffee:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:02 PM
Overall...I dont think either coahc is the problem. Looking at just yesterday...I dont care what the gameplan is. If you are a Bronco...you DO NOT allow Oakland to come in to your house and win. At some point pride has to come into play and you make something happen.


They didnt

Shanny did....
:couch:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:08 PM
I am not saying hes a great HC. I am saying hes good at coaching QBs. That seems to be his specialty, and you can see he has some success with QBs that no other teams even wanted. When was Cassell drafted? In the 7th? Its impressive, considering that these guys are coached up prior to a game really well and they execute his game plan. MCD has done this all year twice! To me, that pretty impressive considering.
Really i have said all year that DEN has 2 HCs. One for offense and one for defense. Its really helped this team attain the success they have had this year.

For those of you that have limited memories ( :D )....

Cassell was drafted in 2005. That means he was learning/practicing the NE offense for 3yrs PRIOR to starting, and then putting it to use in '08.

KO? 8mos?

Yea. You're all right. It's the QB.

:rolleyes:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:16 PM
See.. I don't believe, again, that Royal just "all of a sudden" goes from what many fans believed to be our "Best WR" to simply going non-existent. He can't go from a guy that runs fantastic routes to get open and catch 90 balls, to a guy that can't get open. This kid can't go from "having amazing hands" to a guy the QB doesn't trust. Scheffler, Stokely, and Hillis? These guys can go into the locker room without having to wash their uniforms.

I'm just not convinced, for a MOMENT, that Orton is very good at reading coverages and who is open and who isn't other than finding the check down 'easy' throw. He can't seem to isolate the single coverage, doesn't attack that coverage, and rarely is able to find a very talented WR on the team (Royal).

You're kidding, right?

Have you ever WATCHED NE play, rav?

Brady throws short dumpoffs to his rb's CONSTANTLY! Either out in the flat, or after they fake a handoff, and run through the line into the clearing.

Good grief. :rolleyes:

And far be it for ME to suggest that Royal is having his "sophomore slump". :coffee:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Instead of losing a three game lead at the end, we lost it in November.. and could be the ONLY team to go 6-0 and not reach the playoffs. Not sure where we "appear" to be more competitive. Defensively for sure. We sure as hell didn't look competitive at ALLLLLLLLLLL in NOV when getting friggin' WHIPPED by Balimore, Pitt, and San Diego. We just looked "competitive" against one of the worst teams in the NFL.

The difference from this year's team to last years team, is that we aren't giving up 28 points a game and having to keep up. Instead, we give up 16 and try to keep up.

Do some research, rav. I believe there's already been a 6-0 team not making the playoffs. Heard it on Sirius, but can't remember who/when.

And the only thing keeping Oak from having a winning record, is the QB position. Don't fool yourself.
When a team consistently drafts high, year-in/out, they're apt to get good sooner or later.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 10:29 PM
Do some research, rav. I believe there's already been a 6-0 team not making the playoffs. Heard it on Sirius, but can't remember who/when.

And the only thing keeping Oak from having a winning record, is the QB position. Don't fool yourself.
When a team consistently drafts high, year-in/out, they're apt to get good sooner or later.

I just hope Al Davis doesn't leave soon, so maybe they won't . . .

-----

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:30 PM
I have no idea what he is going to do but i said at the beginning of the year i expected 9-7 at the very least. I know you saw that post from me too because you said the same thing. As for the draft, i dont care what he does as its his ass on the line not mine. But, i would like to see him stockpile draft picks like they do in NE. Going by how the Bears are playing we should be able to swindle Shanahan and the Foreskins by taking McCoy in the top 10. :laugh:

I pray to the Almighty that you're referring to Gerald. :rolleyes:

broncophan
12-21-2009, 10:53 PM
I think we all need to chill out a little bit.....I can remember people complaining about our offense about 3 years ago when we were 7-4......and well......we know what happened after that....

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 10:57 PM
A lot of the leeway for Jay was because he was a rookie. Jay never had the time to sit behind anyone and learn. He was learning as he was going. Orton, although having not started every game at least had the luxury to sit and learn from the bench and had/has more vet experience than Jay does. Jay is learning a new system in Chicago and still has more TD passes than Orton. And all this working with so-so wideouts and a coach who is refusing to use his RB to help him out. Doesnt exclude Jay from his tendency to turn the ball over but at the end of the day the plays have to be made from the Qb in the redzone. The last two weeks have been absolute failures in that regard from our QB. Like i said, if your right than there should be no problem winning the division and making the playoffs next year. If we dont, then....

Orton was drafted 1yr earlier than Cutler.

22wins vs 29losses - Cutler (51games)

29wins vs 18losses - Orton (47 games)

Orton won 10games HIS ROOKIE SEASON! So much for "never .... the time to sit behind anyone and learn."

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 11:08 PM
That's nothing on Orton's 6 years or whatever. The dude hasn't changed as a QB in 6 years. He's a game manager. He has an inability to make plays. It isn't that hard to understand really.

Do you honestly think that 4-6 years in the league and 14 starts for Denver, Orton is all of a sudden going to change the way he plays the game?

I sure as hell don't wanna wait around hoping for that to happen anytime soon.

Are you reading what you're posting? LMAO!

Has Chicago ever had a QB coach/guru while Orton was there? Cutler had Shanny/Kubiak!

He finally has one, in McD. How about letting him spend an offseason with his wr's (like cutler did), and with McD & co.!

And Orton was drafted in '05. Started his rookie year, went 10-5. Year 2, didn't play. Year 3, 2-1. Year 4, 9-6. 21-12 record.

Y/A
Orton: 5.1/6.0/6.4 This year -7.2
Cutler: 7.3/7.5/7.3 This year - 6.4

See a trend?

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 11:15 PM
Shanahan > McDaniels. I wish I had a friggin' Time Machine...


Who in the world compares a future HoF HC to a rookie HC?

Surely not you, D! :shocked:

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 11:17 PM
That's how good the system is when it's working.

I mean c'mon. Tell me you have not seen Marshall catch the ball at his shoelaces on screens where he's 10 feet away from the QB. Orton, who's supposed to be accurate, can't even get those right half the time.

Again, Orton isn't a bad QB. But to think that he can QB a team that is a perrenniel contender for the Lombardi trophy? C'mon. He isn't anywhere in the ball park as gus like Brees/Manning/Brady/Warner/Manning/Rivers/Roethlesberger...etcc...

He!!, Orton isn't even in the same ball park as guys like Rodgers, Flacco, Ryan, etc.

Speaking of Aaron Rodgers, watch him play behind an oline that's worse than Denver's. The Packers got an absolute steal with him, and he's going to be the next great QB.

So when Orton has a great game, "it's the system".....

...but when he doesn't........?????

:confused:

Dreadnought
12-21-2009, 11:23 PM
Who in the world compares a future HoF HC to a rookie HC?

Surely not you, D! :shocked:

Oh, there's no comparison at all. I would expect McD to address our ex coach as nothing less respectful than "Mr. Shanahan" or "Coach Shanahan"

Coach Shanahan is entitled to call McD "son," as in "Look here, son, I made guys like Selvin Young, P.J. Pope, Andre Hall, and Tatum Bell into 5+ YPC backs. Tell me again why your blocking system works better than the ZBS?"

rcsodak
12-21-2009, 11:25 PM
Again.. without documentation?? :lol: Seriously?? What documentation would you want me to provide with my prediction of the events to come? Seriously, Top.. come on. Cut this line of arguing out. I was right about Plummer, and making the same statement here about Orton. We'll see if I'm wrong. :coffee:

What did you say that made you "right about Plummer"? That he would take the team to the playoffs? Have winning records every year? Progressively get better (int's)?

Must've missed those..... :coffee:

getlynched47
12-22-2009, 12:11 AM
Silk, so basically you're calling Kyle Orton a handicap on our offense instead of Josh McDaniels' playcalling?

I'm sorry but I really don't agree because Orton is able to make the throws.

And BTW if Josh McDaniels didn't want Kyle Orton because Kyle would hinder this offense, then why the hell did he pass up Jason Campbell and higher draft picks??? THAT tells you what McDaniels thinks about Orton.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 12:34 AM
Did you see what he had to work with at Chicago for an Oline? ANYBODY would be shellshocked!

Not Aaron Rodgers. He has an oline worse than Denver's, and easily rivals Chicago's, and the guy is going to be a Pro Bowl QB with his team in the playoffs.

nevcraw
12-22-2009, 12:38 AM
See.. I don't believe, again, that Royal just "all of a sudden" goes from what many fans believed to be our "Best WR" to simply going non-existent. He can't go from a guy that runs fantastic routes to get open and catch 90 balls, to a guy that can't get open. This kid can't go from "having amazing hands" to a guy the QB doesn't trust. Scheffler, Stokely, and Hillis? These guys can go into the locker room without having to wash their uniforms.

I'm just not convinced, for a MOMENT, that Orton is very good at reading coverages and who is open and who isn't other than finding the check down 'easy' throw. He can't seem to isolate the single coverage, doesn't attack that coverage, and rarely is able to find a very talented WR on the team (Royal).

rep on the eddie part..

Last year - hillis had the best hands on the team. Now he's benched, not a shot at playing.. forget the the short yardage runs.. if one does not think for a second he would have caught that pass that alligator arms Jordan decided wasnt worth getting, and turning it up field, then one is crazy.. How does Lamont Jordan a career neer do well give us a shot at winning? Isn't that what good coaching is? giving your team the tools to win??

How does this team go from one of the best OL's to one that cannot convert QB sneaks, dump off plays, a billion redzone chances, etc. etc. etc.

I thought I was on drugs watching the game - dellusional, am I really watching this team belly flop a shot at the playoffs?? too bad I was sober..

the football world is against you Broncos.. in hostile philly.. with your 09 lives on the line.. how will you respond??

tune in next week...............

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 12:39 AM
Are you reading what you're posting? LMAO!

Has Chicago ever had a QB coach/guru while Orton was there? Cutler had Shanny/Kubiak!

He finally has one, in McD. How about letting him spend an offseason with his wr's (like cutler did), and with McD & co.!

And Orton was drafted in '05. Started his rookie year, went 10-5. Year 2, didn't play. Year 3, 2-1. Year 4, 9-6. 21-12 record.

Y/A
Orton: 5.1/6.0/6.4 This year -7.2
Cutler: 7.3/7.5/7.3 This year - 6.4

See a trend?

Time would be nice if he's shown improvement throughout the year, which he clearly has not.

And LMAO at bringing Jay Cutler into the equation. He's not even shown he can be a franchise QB.

Even Matt Cassell showed significant improvement throughout the year last year. But I know, I know. Cassell had great teammates.

I mean, how can you honestly compare Moss, Welker, and Maroney to Marshall/Royal/Stokely/Scheffler and Moreno.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 12:40 AM
So when Orton has a great game, "it's the system".....

...but when he doesn't........?????

:confused:

Now you're catching on.

Did the light bulb just go on about Orton being a system QB, and nothing more?

topscribe
12-22-2009, 12:43 AM
Not Aaron Rodgers. He has an oline worse than Denver's, and easily rivals Chicago's, and the guy is going to be a Pro Bowl QB with his team in the playoffs.

Good for Aaron Rodgers. I'm a fan of his.

Now, back to this offense . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 12:46 AM
Silk, so basically you're calling Kyle Orton a handicap on our offense instead of Josh McDaniels' playcalling?

Not exactly. I'm saying McDaniels isn't going to call plays with Orton that he would with Brady, or even Cassell.


I'm sorry but I really don't agree because Orton is able to make the throws.

Is that way he throws the ball in the stands over 50% of the time in the redzone? Because he can make throws?

I've never seen a Qb just say "---- it", give up on the play and launch it into the red zone seats as often as Orton does. Good grief. I know you want to be save with the ball but at some point you have to try and make a play.

We settle for FG's so often because we can't run the ball, and because Orton can't make throws as often as he needs too.



And BTW if Josh McDaniels didn't want Kyle Orton because Kyle would hinder this offense, then why the hell did he pass up Jason Campbell and higher draft picks??? THAT tells you what McDaniels thinks about Orton.


Because Campbell sucks too, and it's quite obvious the front office doesn;t want to pay the guaranteed bonus's that all these high picks come with, which is why your hearing talk about Denver trading down in the draft to save money.

Besides, Orton > Campbell. And believe me, that's not saying much.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 12:47 AM
Good for Aaron Rodgers. I'm a fan of his.

Now, back to this offense . . .

-----


Ugh, please don't remind me. It makes me sick to my stomach.

OaklandRaider
12-22-2009, 12:50 AM
Let it be known, I have never been a huge Josh McDaniels fan...but I was starting to come around a little bit after our 6-0 fluke start. Little did I know, after our bye week our true Denver Bronco team has came, going 2-6 since that point.

That being said, I have tried to be patient and patient with this abomination of an offense, and I've snapped. I hate this offense and I wish it was never brought here to Denver.

Let's go over some stats, shall we?

Total Yards: 17th
3rd Down Conversion: 22nd
4th Down Conversion: 30th
Scoring: 20th
Red Zone Scoring: 29th

These are the stats that are important for this offense. In addition, I wish there was a stat for stupid playcalling because we would be near the top with that one. I'll get into that in a little bit.

What the hell is wrong with this offense? Wasn't McDaniels' focus to improve our red zone offense because the 2008 Denver Broncos gained a lot of yards but either Jay Cutler and the offense would turn it over, or we would settle for field goals. He vowed to improve our scoring offense, but hasn't come through. You could argue all you want about players executing, but in the end it all comes back to the coach putting in those players who might not be executing, or just having stupid play calls.

For example, short-yardage has been ridiculous. I don't know what McDaniels is thinking. He keeps doing something that clearly hasn't worked and won't work. He keeps pressing to MAKE it work, but he's costing us with his stupid play-calling and personel in short yardage and long yardage. For goodness sakes, what the hell would we lose trying Peyton Hillis at short yardage when Knowshon Moreno clearly isnt' effective doing it?

And in long yardage, McDaniels calls a freakin screen on 3rd and 15? Kyle Orton can throw the deep ball, but the play calling is limiting our entire offense.

I'm sick and tired of: 5 yard hitch, bubble screen, crossing route, bubble screen, hitch, screen, screen, slant, etc. It's not the QB, it's the play calling and the stupid system.

Another thing that really pisses me off is how McDaniels is simply unwilling to get the ball to our playmakers. We have a plethora of playmakers...USE THEM!!! Everywhere I read, everything I observe, it's that Eddie Royal, Tony Scheffler, Daniel Graham, Brandon Stokley, and Peyton Hillis are being UNDERUTILIZED!! When the hell is it going to get into McDaniels head that he can't simply rely on Brandon Marshall, Jabar Gaffney and Knowshon Moreno?!?! We have the weapons, might as well use them.

Conform the offense to the weapons you have, not conform the weapons to this boring-ass offense. Utilize our weapons, not neglect them. Is that too much to ask for?

Another thing, that Clady screen. Really? You want to jeopardize arguably our best offensive player for kicks? Is it worth risking a huge injury to Ryan Clady for a stupid play like that? Seriously, I would expect better from the guy that orchestrated the 2007 New England Patriots offense.

Sadly, I realize that as long as McDaniels is our head coach and offensive coordinator that this stupid offense will remain intact. But is it too much to ask that we STOP DOING CRAP THAT ISN'T WORKING!?!? McDaniels is known for being an offensive genius, guru, mastermind, etc. Show me why.

And no, the "it's a new system" excuse doesn't fly any longer. We've gone 14 games and I haven't seen improvement.

Fix our damn scoring offense and stop making excuses. Loss after loss after loss, McDaniels' excuse is that "We need to execute better". Is it execution? Or is it this stupid offensive system?

Reality is that we're 2-6 after starting off the season 6-0, and our season depends on winning these next two games. The Eagles are probably one the toughest team we have faced on our rocky road, and we need a win or else our season is toast.

Phew. Venting felt so good. If you read through all of this, you're a champion and I :salute: you. I look forward to having a great discussion regarding this topic. Let's keep one thing in mind: It doesn't bother me if you disagree with me. Let's discuss. But don't attack me. Attack the ideas.

Great post and I agree.

McDaniels certainly deserves some blame. I mean this guy was supposed to be the offensive guru.

The Broncos have a very talented offensive roster, and it boggles my mind how a guy like McDaniels doesn't find ways to use those weapons. Eddie Royal is a very good player. He has ELITE speed and quickness. You HAVE to find ways to get the ball in his hands, are you kidding me? Tony Scheffler is a match up NIGHTMARE. Dude is basically an extra WR playing TE, and you can't find ways to get him the ball? Peyton Hillis was a beast last year. He is on the bench while Lamont Freaking Jordan is getting carries?

But everything is not McDaniels fault, some of the blame has to go on Kyle Orton. Orton sucks whenever he has to throw the ball over 20 yards. He is a non threat to complete a downfield pass, teams know this and they don't respect his deep ball. Whenever there is a blitz coming, he RARELY finds the open man. Most of the time the balls end up on the ground or he overthrows them when pressure is in his face. He also forces the ball to Marshall probably more than Jay Cutler did.

Anyway thats just how I feel

topscribe
12-22-2009, 12:55 AM
Time would be nice if he's shown improvement throughout the year, which he clearly has not.

Oh? He has not? Here are his numbers the last 4 games (working backwards):

(Team, COMP/ATT, YDS, TD, INT, QBR)

OAK 19/34 278 1 0 92.5 (Frye, Losman, Russell combined QB rating: 56.0)

IND 29/41 277 2 1 95.3 (P. Manning 65.6)

KC 15/25 180 2 1 92.1 (Cassel 14.6)

NYG 18/28 245 1 1 89.1 (E. Manning 65.6)

And all that while playing with a high ankle sprain. Those are some decent
numbers. In fact, Orton outplayed the opposing QBs in every single game.

Who says he hasn't improved? :listen:

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GEM
12-22-2009, 12:56 AM
Great post and I agree.

McDaniels certainly deserves some blame. I mean this guy was supposed to be the offensive guru.

The Broncos have a very talented offensive roster, and it boggles my mind how a guy like McDaniels doesn't find ways to use those weapons. Eddie Royal is a very good player. He has ELITE speed and quickness. You HAVE to find ways to get the ball in his hands, are you kidding me? Tony Scheffler is a match up NIGHTMARE. Dude is basically an extra WR playing TE, and you can't find ways to get him the ball? Peyton Hillis was a beast last year. He is on the bench while Lamont Freaking Jordan is getting carries?

But everything is not McDaniels fault, some of the blame has to go on Kyle Orton. Orton sucks whenever he has to throw the ball over 20 yards. He is a non threat to complete a downfield pass, teams know this and they don't respect his deep ball. Whenever there is a blitz coming, he RARELY finds the open man. Most of the time the balls end up on the ground or he overthrows them when pressure is in his face. He also forces the ball to Marshall probably more than Jay Cutler did.

Anyway thats just how I feel

Holy....what rock did you come out from? :D Kidding! Good first post back.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 01:02 AM
Oh? He has not? Here are his numbers the last 4 games (working backwards):

(Team, COMP/ATT, YDS, TD, INT, QBR)

OAK 19/34 278 1 0 92.5

IND 29/41 277 2 1 95.3

KC 15/25 180 2 1 92.1

NYG 18/28 245 1 1 89.1

And all that while playing with a high ankle sprain. Those are some decent numbers.

Who says he hasn't improved? :listen:

-----

Only further proof of him being a system QB. Just think, with Orton improving and getting better, our offense is starting to flourish up to around 18 ppg.

18.

It's like Jay Cutler all over again, but different.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:06 AM
Only further proof of him being a system QB. Just think, with Orton improving and getting better, our offense is starting to flourish up to around 18 ppg.

18.

It's like Jay Cutler all over again, but different.

Bullshit. What is it that makes you so damned stubborn you can't concede
anything? Pride? Ego? Is it so important for you to "save face" on a football
message board? Everything I have presented is evidence of a damned good QB,
and you and the other cynics here have provided nothing. Nothing.

-----

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:09 AM
Holy....what rock did you come out from? :D Kidding! Good first post back.

That was a good post? Mmmm-kay . . . :coffee:

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Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:10 AM
What did you say that made you "right about Plummer"? That he would take the team to the playoffs? Have winning records every year? Progressively get better (int's)?

Must've missed those..... :coffee:

No.. and those have nothing to do with what is being said.

I was right about Plummer being nothing more than a stop-gap QB. One that would be in Denver just long enough for the coach to go out and find another. Just as we did.

Just as we'll do with Orton... hopefully sooner than later. Orton is a back-up quality QB... period. A guy you want to come in off the bench, but not to be your starter.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 01:10 AM
Bullshit. What is it that makes you so damned stubborn you can't concede
anything? Pride? Ego? Is it so important for you to "save face" on a football
message board? Everything I have presented is evidence of a damned good QB,
and you and the other cynics here have provided nothing. Nothing.

-----

LMAO

What do you want me to "concede" exactly?

Orton is a great QB, gives our offense a chance, and wins game for us?

please. I'd be lying out of my ass if I said that.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:12 AM
LMAO

What do you want me to "concede" exactly?

Orton is a great QB, gives our offense a chance, and wins game for us?

please. I'd be lying out of my ass if I said that.

There you go again. Should I add "honest" to my request?

I mean, where did I use the word "great"?

See what I mean? Exaggerate the word--or fabricate it outright--then put it into my mouth . . . :tsk:



No.. and those have nothing to do with what is being said.

I was right about Plummer being nothing more than a stop-gap QB. One that would be in Denver just long enough for the coach to go out and find another. Just as we did.

Just as we'll do with Orton... hopefully sooner than later. Orton is a back-up quality QB... period. A guy you want to come in off the bench, but not to be your starter.

And there you go again. You keep repeating the same old thing over and over,
always without anything to back it up, as if pure repetition will cause us to
believe it . . .

-----

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 01:14 AM
There you go again. Should I add "honest" to my request?

I mean, where did I use the word "great"?

See what I mean? Exaggerate the word--or fabricate it outright--then put it into my mouth . . . :tsk:

-----

Ok, a "damned good" QB?

I've already said he isn't a bad QB by any means. Apparently you completely missed that. numerous of times.

Orton's a good QB. Now, Denver needs to go and find their next franchise QB that can win games for them when other key people get injured.

That's honest.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:15 AM
Ok, a "damned good" QB?

I've already said he isn't a bad QB by any means. Apparently you completely missed that. numerous of times.

Orton's a good QB. Now, Denver needs to go and find their next franchise QB that can win games for them when other key people get injured.

That's honest.

Yes. As I said, the numbers indicate a damned good QB.

"Great" is John Elway, Johnny Unitas, and, yes, Peyton Manning, et al.

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Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:17 AM
Top.. here you go again thinking that you provide "irrefutable evidence" to support your claim, and its just stats. Stats don't tell the story. They never have and they never will. You can show me stats all day long, but its WATCHING the games and how its played that makes the difference.

Orton doesn't do a LOT of the things you would expect to see from a 5th year QB in the NFL. He doesnt' move from teh pocket, he doesn't find and isolate the man coverage. He doesn't test the downfield ball. He doesn't seem to find anything else other than the primary receiver and/or the rb check down. Its EASY to hit a high % of passes if they are the 3 yrd check-off all day long. Teams will GIVE You that check-off because they know its NOT going to beat you.

Orton doesn't look off safeties, he doesn't pull them away with shrugs or pump fakes. Orton is scared to take chances and can't seem to read when a WR is open unless he's WIDE open. Orton's accurcy on crossing routes is not good.

These are examples of things that people SEE rather than what some numbers (like the infamous QB rating) show. YOU may feel that you have given "evidence" of some good play. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of numbers that don't tell a SINGLE thing on how the game is actually played on the field.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 01:19 AM
Yes. As I said, the numbers indicate a damned good QB.

-----

Cool. He's a damned good QB.

He's a good stop gap for the next franchise guy, whomever it's going to be.

Surely there's someon out there that can generate more than 20 ppg with all the talent on this offense.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2009, 01:20 AM
"Great" is John Elway, Johnny Unitas, and, yes, Peyton Manning, et al.

-----

What comes betwen "great" and "damned good"?

because with guys like Manning and Brady, there's a plethora of QB's in the NFL right now that are better, and much much better than Kyle Orton.

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:22 AM
And there you go again. You keep repeating the same old thing over and over,
always without anything to back it up, as if pure repetition will cause us to
believe it . . .

-----

Actually.. if you READ the quote of RC's.... he asked what exactly I said about plummer. My post directly answered THAT quote.

Just for YOUR info. I've heard your SAME defenses of Orton over and over again. When are you going to stop repeating yourself????? They haven't changed a SINGLE thing in anyone's mind.. he's STILL going to be a back-up QB.

My OPINIION on ORton's future, is JUST as relevant and as good as YOURS. So please.. stop pulling this "needing something to back it up" CRAP, when every conjecture is based on an EDUCATED GUESS. If you feel YOUR guess is different... great. More power to you. But I'm PRETTY damned sure (going with experience and an Educated Guess again) that you are NOT going to stop giving YOUR guesses on how GREAT Orton is going to be. :coffee:

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:24 AM
Top.. here you go again thinking that you provide "irrefutable evidence" to support your claim, and its just stats. Stats don't tell the story. They never have and they never will. You can show me stats all day long, but its WATCHING the games and how its played that makes the difference.

Orton doesn't do a LOT of the things you would expect to see from a 5th year QB in the NFL. He doesnt' move from teh pocket, he doesn't find and isolate the man coverage. He doesn't test the downfield ball. He doesn't seem to find anything else other than the primary receiver and/or the rb check down. Its EASY to hit a high % of passes if they are the 3 yrd check-off all day long. Teams will GIVE You that check-off because they know its NOT going to beat you.

Orton doesn't look off safeties, he doesn't pull them away with shrugs or pump fakes. Orton is scared to take chances and can't seem to read when a WR is open unless he's WIDE open. Orton's accurcy on crossing routes is not good.

These are examples of things that people SEE rather than what some numbers (like the infamous QB rating) show. YOU may feel that you have given "evidence" of some good play. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of numbers that don't tell a SINGLE thing on how the game is actually played on the field.

And there you go again, confining me to just "stats." Stats are just part of it.
I, and several others who support Orton, have spent the season watching him.
Observing him. Thoroughly. Open-mindedly.

I have also researched him very heavily over the past few years. You know it.
But, of course, you want to confine me to stats. That Figures (so to speak).

But I'll tell you: the more consistent stats are, the more accurate they
become. Orton's are as consistent as anyone's.

You see, the difference between you and me is that I have talked about what
Orton has done, backed by documentation, while you have insisted on making
the same prediction on what he is going to do, over and over again, with
absolutely no documentation.

-----

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:29 AM
And there you go again, confining me to just "stats." Stats are just part of it.
I, and several others who support Orton, have spent the season watching him.
Observing him. Thoroughly. Open-mindedly.

I have also researched him very heavily over the past few years. You know it.
But, of course, you want to confine me to stats. That Figures (so to speak).

But I'll tell you: the more consistent stats are, the more accurate they
become. Orton's are as consistent as anyone's.

You see, the difference between you and me is that I have talked about what
Orton has done, backed by documentation, while you have insisted on making
the same prediction on what he is going to do, over and over again, with
absolutely no documentation.

-----

Because its STUPID to ask for documentation on a PREDICTION. The only thing you have REPEATED over and over again, is that you believe him to be a good QB. Then you THINK that your stats actually continue to support that viewpoint. GREAT. But it doesn't change or alter MY viewpoint of him. I dont' need the 'stats' to SEE that Orton is nothing more than a back-up quality QB. THe kind of guy you have on your team just long enough to take snaps until you actually find a good QB.

Its absolutely ABSURD to ask for documentation on the opinion of future playing status in the NFL... and even MORE ridiculous that you actually continue to use that as if its some "telling" observation of yours that pokes holes in my prediction.

It doesn't. Not-in-the-least. :coffee:

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:31 AM
he's STILL going to be a back-up QB.


There you go again, and again, and again. The same baseless prediction.

I have never made a prediction. I have given my opinion. And I have said I
may be wrong about the future. My facts are about his past: I am not wrong
about that.

But you present your prediction as fact--as if we are to believe it on your
word. If that is your opinion, then you might present it as such. Might help.

-----

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:36 AM
There you go again, and again, and again. The same baseless prediction.

I have never made a prediction. I have given my opinion. And I have said I
may be wrong about the future. My facts are about his past: I am not wrong
about that.

But you present your prediction as fact--as if we are to believe it on your word.

Sorry. Doesn't fly . . . :coffee:

-----

Its NOT baseless!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

What do you not understand about opinions??? WOW!! :laugh:

Here.. let me state it this way for you since you dont' seem to grasp. An opinion is an opinion. It doesn't HAVE to have 'fact.' Its an OPINION. A fact is a fact. You have not provided a SINGLE fact that is changing my OPINION on the future of Orton's starting status.

ALSO.. someone doesn't have to STATE its an opinion when its a PREDICTION of the future. That is what is known as a GIVEN. Its redundant to state its an opinion when its OBVIOUSLY and opinion... unless you think I can read the future??? So please, quit being so nick-picky with ridiculous requests.

The BASIS for my opinion, is WATCHING him play. I've watched MORE than enough of his play to be able to see just how good, average, or not good that he is. He's an average QB, thus one that will ALWAYS be looked upon as nothing more than a stop-gap. Teams do not want average QBs for long.

:lol: didn't realize that forming an opinion is such a complicated subject. :coffee:

getlynched47
12-22-2009, 01:40 AM
I won't argue against the fact that we need a new QB. But what's the master plan? To draft a rookie QB early and throw him into the fire? More often than not, you kill a rookies career putting him in too early.

I'm just saying that I feel Josh McDaniels is the problem THIS YEAR offensively, moreso than Kyle Orton.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 01:41 AM
Its NOT baseless!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

What do you not understand about opinions??? WOW!! :laugh:

Here.. let me state it this way for you since you dont' seem to grasp. An opinion is an opinion. It doesn't HAVE to have 'fact.' Its an OPINION. A fact is a fact. You have not provided a SINGLE fact that is changing my OPINION on the future of Orton's starting status.

The BASIS for my opinion, is WATCHING him play. I've watched MORE than enough of his play to be able to see just how good, average, or not good that he is. He's an average QB, thus one that will ALWAYS be looked upon as nothing more than a stop-gap. Teams do not want average QBs for long.

:lol: didn't realize that forming an opinion is such a complicated subject. :coffee:

You don't really want to get into that "average" thing with me, do you, Ravage? :coffee:

Anyway, I don't know where you get the idea I'm trying to change your
opinion. I was not originally even discussing it with you. You entered my
discussion with someone else. Not that you are not welcome; you are. But
don't get the idea I was trying to achieve the impossible, i.e., talk sense into
you.

Nonetheless, it just occurred to me that we are making each other the topic
here. Let's not do that. In fact, I'm outta here. I'll let you have the last say
because I'm done.

And then, :focus:

-----

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 01:46 AM
I won't argue against the fact that we need a new QB. But what's the master plan? To draft a rookie QB early and throw him into the fire? More often than not, you kill a rookies career putting him in too early.

I'm just saying that I feel Josh McDaniels is the problem THIS YEAR offensively, moreso than Kyle Orton.

Thats not true. There are several QBs in the NFL that are doign fine, or have done fine, by being put in as the starter while a rookie. Hell, with the 'qb guru' as our coach, this should be simple.

Brees, Manning, McNabb, Ryan, Flacco, Stafford, Rothlesburger, Young, Sanchez,... are just some of the QBs that have started as rookies.

Elevation inc
12-22-2009, 02:33 AM
DRAFT SEAN CANFIELD FROM OREGON STATE IN RD 3 and we will be golden for the future......:D

bcbronc
12-22-2009, 04:59 AM
Orton is so good he doesn't need to put touchdowns on the board

elsid13
12-22-2009, 05:24 AM
DRAFT SEAN CANFIELD FROM OREGON STATE IN RD 3 and we will be golden for the future......:D

Canfield, is the kinda of QB that McDaniels would be able to be very very productive with.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 05:47 AM
Tops I think you're missing the point. Manning and Brady can throw balls that force their Wr's reach. Why? because they engineer the offense, and make plays. They move the ball down the field. They don't have to be great in one area, because they are so very very good in all areas.

Kyle Orton doesn't have that luxery.

I'm not saying that it isn't the case of a little bit of inaccuracy in every case,
Silk. But we can't judge from just seeing where the pass went. We need to
dig a bit deeper and evaluate why it went there.

.

But remember that Brady and Manning have also been in there scheme for more than 14 games their recievers have been in the scheme for more than 14 games except for Gaffney Orton has NONE. Same for the oline TE, RB's and all of the Coaches save Josh. They have been working with m±ch the same personnel for years not months.

I don't understand why most folks here do not get that this is NEW for everyone.

While you might get away with changes like this in college this is the NFL where even the loser teams are better than most college teams.

Brady said it took him 3 years to fully understand the scheme, everyone was willing to give Jay a pass for three years to learn Mikes scheme.

So wehy is everyone throwing Orton underr the bus after 14 games he has played for most of that time he has had an injury to deal with beside having all of his teamates learning it also.

I know we have a few folks that still. Have not gotten over mike and jay being gone but it is time to realize Josh is here to stay and so is his scheme. Might as well get behind it and stop being negative nancys about every little thing.

It is going to take awile for everyone to be on the same page every play.

Get a couple biggie Oline guys to replace OG and C either in FA or the draft and a lot of the issues will go away.

When KO can step up into the pocket because the NT or DT are not collapsing the pocket maybe there will be time to go deeper than we have been.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Northman
12-22-2009, 07:06 AM
You're kidding, right?

Have you ever WATCHED NE play, rav?

Brady throws short dumpoffs to his rb's CONSTANTLY! Either out in the flat, or after they fake a handoff, and run through the line into the clearing.

Good grief. :rolleyes:

And far be it for ME to suggest that Royal is having his "sophomore slump". :coffee:

That usually happens when a QB doesnt throw to you very often. But yea, its everyone else's fault except Orton. :lol:

Northman
12-22-2009, 07:08 AM
Not Aaron Rodgers. He has an oline worse than Denver's, and easily rivals Chicago's, and the guy is going to be a Pro Bowl QB with his team in the playoffs.

Forget Rodgers, did you see Big Ben? No defense and no offensive line and he put up 37 pts anyway. :lol:

Northman
12-22-2009, 07:13 AM
I've already said he isn't a bad QB by any means. Apparently you completely missed that. numerous of times.






Funny how that works huh? This is kind of like the bozo's who were clamoring that Jay was the best thing since slice bread and couldnt understand he had weaknesses. Now, you can sit here and say that Orton is decent and not great and yet get a load of shit for pointing out his flaws. Its a no win senario my friend. Trust me.

Northman
12-22-2009, 07:21 AM
Top.. here you go again thinking that you provide "irrefutable evidence" to support your claim, and its just stats. Stats don't tell the story. They never have and they never will. You can show me stats all day long, but its WATCHING the games and how its played that makes the difference.

Orton doesn't do a LOT of the things you would expect to see from a 5th year QB in the NFL. He doesnt' move from teh pocket, he doesn't find and isolate the man coverage. He doesn't test the downfield ball. He doesn't seem to find anything else other than the primary receiver and/or the rb check down. Its EASY to hit a high % of passes if they are the 3 yrd check-off all day long. Teams will GIVE You that check-off because they know its NOT going to beat you.

Orton doesn't look off safeties, he doesn't pull them away with shrugs or pump fakes. Orton is scared to take chances and can't seem to read when a WR is open unless he's WIDE open. Orton's accurcy on crossing routes is not good.

These are examples of things that people SEE rather than what some numbers (like the infamous QB rating) show. YOU may feel that you have given "evidence" of some good play. The only thing I've seen is a bunch of numbers that don't tell a SINGLE thing on how the game is actually played on the field.


I remember a few years ago when Brunell was in Wash and had a completion record (against Jax i believe) of like 23 straight passes in the game. And that within itself is a nice record to have only it was done with screen and 10 yds or less type of passes. Orton is very efficient with the 0-15 yd range. Most Qb's are but when you start going outside that zone he becomes less accurate and least effective. Now, i know he can throw deep as ive seen it in the Bmore game and in some of the other games. However, his accuracy is not that great which is to be expected. He is not a great QB, only decent. And currently his success is based upon the system that is in place but as we are finding out teams are starting to figure out the system and since McDaniels clearly doesnt trust him to stretch the field very often it limits the offense. I cannot stress this enough, if Orton is too take this team to a SB he will have to be just like Plummer and have an ALL WORLD defense to back him up. But those are very rare and hard to come by. Orton does not have the capability to carry this team to a SB. So while he is decent which some of us have said repeatedly we do not believe he is the longterm answer for this team at QB. Calling Orton a decent but not great QB is not an insult. He is what he is. It could be worse, we could have Jmarshmellow man....wait, he was clutch wasnt he? JK :lol:

Ziggy
12-22-2009, 07:54 AM
I couldn't agree more North. Orton is a serviceable starter, a very good backup, and certainly not worth giving a medium to large contract to. I'd love to keep him around next season, either as a backup or a starter until one of the younger guys or draft picks can step up and allow McD to expand the playbook. Is it all his fault that this offense isn't firing on all cylinders? No, but he is a factor. The interior offensive line needs to be revamped to start with. I just don't think that Orton will scare any defense, even with a good Oline and RB's. McD has had to put most of the playbook back on the shelf, much the way that Shanny did when Plummer was here. Time will tell who was right, but we do know that when McD had the horses, his offense set records. That tells me that the system works. The players in it currently don't.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 07:58 AM
It doesnt matter who the QB or the RB or the coach is. Fans tend to wear their heart on their sleeves and get emotional about their team. That's fine...but be realistic about it. The only reason people are so hateful and pissy right now is because of the 6-0 start. If Denver was 8-6 right now after having lost the first 6 games, everyone would be glorifying them for their improvement. Unfortunately, most fans can't see it that way. They forget that maybe there were reasons we started 6-0 that dont exist anymore. make the change in scheme was confusing to teams early on and made up for the lack of talent we have. Maybe we got lucky a few times and the team is really still learining the nuances of the offense. There are all kinds of reasons for how things have gone over the last 8 games, but no one wants to look at those. No...we'll just blame the coach, the rookie RB, the QB, the system...pretty much everything except the receivers and the OL. Afterall...those are pretty much the only things left in tact from the St. Michael era. NOTHING could possibly be blamed on those areas...unless of course they do make a mistake and then...that only happened because Josh asked them to do something they should be able to do anyway.

I dont see issues with being upset about a team and their performance, but PLEASE remember this is a team that is technically still rebuilding. There are still alot of pieces to be fixed and a quick start should NOT be a guideline for an entire season. It could be worse. We could be a Patriots team in 2007 or a potentially a Colts team in 2009 that goes all the way to the Super Bowl undefeated...only to lose.

There are worse things that could happen and in all honesty...if people cant see the positives that have already come out of this season and the limited changes that have already been made...well...at some point those people are intentionally looking the other way and that's sad.

claymore
12-22-2009, 08:08 AM
What comes betwen "great" and "damned good"?

because with guys like Manning and Brady, there's a plethora of QB's in the NFL right now that are better, and much much better than Kyle Orton.

Orton is a 2nd tier QB. No more no less. At least we dont ave anything invested in him and we have options.

Northman
12-22-2009, 08:13 AM
I couldn't agree more North. Orton is a serviceable starter, a very good backup, and certainly not worth giving a medium to large contract to. I'd love to keep him around next season, either as a backup or a starter until one of the younger guys or draft picks can step up and allow McD to expand the playbook. Is it all his fault that this offense isn't firing on all cylinders? No, but he is a factor. The interior offensive line needs to be revamped to start with. I just don't think that Orton will scare any defense, even with a good Oline and RB's. McD has had to put most of the playbook back on the shelf, much the way that Shanny did when Plummer was here. Time will tell who was right, but we do know that when McD had the horses, his offense set records. That tells me that the system works. The players in it currently don't.


Exactly. McDaniels is going to have to decide what route he is going to take when it comes to his QB. Is he going to try and build around Orton? Or is he going to try and find a QB who is more capable of making the plays necessary to win ballgames when the rest of the team falters? For me, it doesnt matter as a fan, i just want to win. And if indeed guys like Top, JR, and RCS think that Orton is capable of carrying this team to the SB than we should see immediate results next year. Orton is not a rookie, he has more talent here than he has ever had in Chicago and yet his offensive production is almost virtually the same as last year. The only real improvement he has made is his completion percentage. However, when most of your passes are under 15 yds your completion percentage will go up drastically. As far as McD's system is concerned. Yea, McD takes some blame here. Mainly because he came in and knew the type of lines we had and just like Shanahan failed to address them. Luckily, Nolan and his system has better utilized some of the players we had but there are still some glaring weaknesses. As for the offensive line, he's essentially done Orton a disservice by taking the line out of their normal comfort zone. However again, if the system worked early in the year it should be working now. But McD's failure to adjust at all is allowing this team to choke down the stretch. Unfortuanely, all i see in McD right now is Brian Billick. Next year will be important on so many levels in terms of what kind of HC he will be for the future.

broncofaninfla
12-22-2009, 08:27 AM
It doesnt matter who the QB or the RB or the coach is. Fans tend to wear their heart on their sleeves and get emotional about their team. That's fine...but be realistic about it. The only reason people are so hateful and pissy right now is because of the 6-0 start. If Denver was 8-6 right now after having lost the first 6 games, everyone would be glorifying them for their improvement. Unfortunately, most fans can't see it that way. They forget that maybe there were reasons we started 6-0 that dont exist anymore. make the change in scheme was confusing to teams early on and made up for the lack of talent we have. Maybe we got lucky a few times and the team is really still learining the nuances of the offense. There are all kinds of reasons for how things have gone over the last 8 games, but no one wants to look at those. No...we'll just blame the coach, the rookie RB, the QB, the system...pretty much everything except the receivers and the OL. Afterall...those are pretty much the only things left in tact from the St. Michael era. NOTHING could possibly be blamed on those areas...unless of course they do make a mistake and then...that only happened because Josh asked them to do something they should be able to do anyway.

I dont see issues with being upset about a team and their performance, but PLEASE remember this is a team that is technically still rebuilding. There are still alot of pieces to be fixed and a quick start should NOT be a guideline for an entire season. It could be worse. We could be a Patriots team in 2007 or a potentially a Colts team in 2009 that goes all the way to the Super Bowl undefeated...only to lose.

There are worse things that could happen and in all honesty...if people cant see the positives that have already come out of this season and the limited changes that have already been made...well...at some point those people are intentionally looking the other way and that's sad.

I agree with 90% of what you have to say, I am optimistic for next season BUT we have the playoffs in our grasp THIS season. The short yardage game has stunk since game one. It's on the coaches to call plays that work. Our Oline hasn't been able to execute these sitations all season long. Instead of changing our approach in converting in these sitautions our caoch has been stubborn and continued to try the SAME approach week in and week out. He has also been stubborn about using different players in this situation. We have yet to see a Larsen Hills package in a short yardage situation. i don't give a rats ass if the oline is failing to execute, at least try to use a guy who has shown he CAN break arm tackles and drag people with him. To use any of the guys we have been failing with ALL season long with again at this point just looks stubborn and is pointless. It's a guarentee to fail.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 08:48 AM
I agree with 90% of what you have to say, I am optimistic for next season BUT we have the playoffs in our grasp THIS season. The short yardage game has stunk since game one. It's on the coaches to call plays that work. Our Oline hasn't been able to execute these sitations all season long. Instead of changing our approach in converting in these sitautions our caoch has been stubborn and continued to try the SAME approach week in and week out. He has also been stubborn about using different players in this situation. We have yet to see a Larsen Hills package in a short yardage situation. i don't give a rats ass if the oline is failing to execute, at least try to use a guy who has shown he CAN break arm tackles and drag people with him. To use any of the guys we have been failing with ALL season long with again at this point just looks stubborn and is pointless. It's a guarentee to fail.

We can beat ourselves to death trying to figure it out...or we can bash the guy for reasons we dont know. I have better things to stress out about, but...to each their own

topscribe
12-22-2009, 09:45 AM
That usually happens when a QB doesnt throw to you very often. But yea, its everyone else's fault except Orton. :lol:

Wow, nice argument. :rolleyes:

BTW, in another post, I provided these numbers:

Orton's comp percentage to Royal: 47%
Everybody else: more than 60%

If Eddie's slump is Orton's fault, then why doesn't that show up with the other
receivers? He is their QB, too.



Forget Rodgers, did you see Big Ben? No defense and no offensive line and he put up 37 pts anyway. :lol:

Yes, I saw Big Ben.

5 February 2006: 9/21, 42.9%, 123yds, 0 TD, 2 INT, 22.6 QBR

In fact, Ben hasn't become consistently good until this year, his 6th year on
the field. Even then, he had bad games against Cincy and Cleveland this year.

Happens to the best of them . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 11:38 AM
Thats not true at all. Ben was more consistent last year than he is this year.

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 11:48 AM
The question is this:

Can Orton take you to a superbowl ?

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 12:47 PM
So its Ortons fault that we have lost games, because he has not stretched the field?.

Or its Joshes fault that teams are playing their safeties deep.

Or we have stunk in the red zone since TD and Poortis have been gone. (Minus Mike Bells year).

Or Orton is the bad guy because inspite of having better stats (I know those do not mean anything to a few fans) over his past few years, even thoiugh his collapsing pocket has not allowed him time to throw deep. Or perhaps the high ankle sprain and dislocated (broken through the skin) may be hampering them not from being great and not being as mobile as he could be.

BTW the odds of finding another Elway are slim so for all of you that think Josh is not looking you do him a diservice, but I suspect he will turn KO into a better than average QB that some of you seem to think he is.

Josh has improved what many thought Brady was a HOF QB in his last year of teaching 07 him. And took his Backup a career backup to an 11-5 record.

I have faith that Josh can improve KO to a fine career here in DEN once he gets a chabce to improve his techniqueand mechanics something that he did not have as much time as he would have liked to in the few weeks he had in OTAs last year.

If we improve the size and strength of the oline a lot of things happen the red zone blocking becomes better, kyle has time to step up into the pocket that has not collapsed into him. And the deeper pass then becomes available to throw.

This team will continue to be a work in progress next year but should see progress in these areas.

If Josh was not in a hurry to win this past year perhaps we would have seen Hamilton replaced earlier. Kind a hard to replace the Icon of the old guard without giving him a chance to do it.

I have always said this team would be more consistent in 2010.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

rationalfan
12-22-2009, 12:53 PM
sorry, don't have time to read through all the posts in this thread. so if my point has been addressed, ignore me.

with all this talk about hillis and mcdaniels' play calling i'm thinking the missing argument is the importance of buckhalter. with him, the team's offense marches down the field (mostly). without him, the team's offense looks stale. no reasearch here, just a hunch. but it's on my mind.

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 12:57 PM
The safeties do NOT play us deep.

underrated29
12-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Or its Joshes fault that teams are playing their safeties deep.






This part stuck out to me, just like it does everytime Josh says it. ^



I simply refuse to believe that ALL the teams we have played play their safties deep. There is no way they do that. And it also goes against everything we have seen. We never go deep why would they keep them deep, we constantly see 8-9 in box. Constantly. We also never ever ever work the middle of the field. Everything is to the side line.

(which is why on are very rare occasions we do go middle it always is a big play, because no one is there)

Safties deep is a poor excuse by the coaching staff to cover up a lack of something. Play calling, talent at qb, talent at wr, talent at OL, talent at scheme whatever......But Not EVERYTEAM plays their safties so far deep. Esp, when we never ever go deep.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 01:35 PM
Funny how that works huh? This is kind of like the bozo's who were clamoring that Jay was the best thing since slice bread and couldnt understand he had weaknesses. Now, you can sit here and say that Orton is decent and not great and yet get a load of shit for pointing out his flaws. Its a no win senario my friend. Trust me.


I guess it is the constant drum beat by a few that were on Jays jock for so long that continue to down play Orton and try to make him look like another Griese QB.. when he has not had a decent chance to learn how to be a QB yet..

some will never get over John or in some cases jay.. thinking/implying unless we have one or the other the guy in place is a dud..

that franchise QB are falling off trees and we are to stupid to not throw one to the wolves as a rookie.. instead of giving KO a chance to improve because in their minds he will never be good enough because he replaced jay..

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 01:45 PM
This part stuck out to me, just like it does everytime Josh says it. ^



I simply refuse to believe that ALL the teams we have played play their safties deep. There is no way they do that. And it also goes against everything we have seen. We never go deep why would they keep them deep, we constantly see 8-9 in box. Constantly. We also never ever ever work the middle of the field. Everything is to the side line.

(which is why on are very rare occasions we do go middle it always is a big play, because no one is there)

Safties deep is a poor excuse by the coaching staff to cover up a lack of something. Play calling, talent at qb, talent at wr, talent at OL, talent at scheme whatever......But Not EVERYTEAM plays their safties so far deep. Esp, when we never ever go deep.



perhaps some are seeing what they want to see.. since I have not seen all of the games this year.. and those I did I did not spend countless hours studying the tivo like I have in the past I can't say but what I have seen and what Josh has said on more than ONE occasion..

perhaps there are 8-9 in the box prior to the snap but are dropping back in coverage at the snap and KO or the coaches are seeing this on their game tape.. I do not know for sure.. I trust them alot more than a couple of arm chair/MM QB's on here..


we have a few fans that are so invested in there favorite players they are not open to seeing what is or is not really happening .. you know beauty is in the eye of the beholder type thing.. so some still have visions of jay dancing in their heads.. Santa is bring them lumps of coal 3 days from now..

I'm willing to give Orton, Josh the benefit of doubt for now and IF they do not improve next year then I'll worry about if he is OUR future franchise QB or not.. after all Tom Brady was not a franchise QB his first year under this scheme either..

there has simply not been enough time in play here for them to know just yet..

Northman
12-22-2009, 01:46 PM
I guess it is the constant drum beat by a few that were on Jays jock for so long that continue to down play Orton and try to make him look like another Griese QB.. when he has not had a decent chance to learn how to be a QB yet..

some will never get over John or in some cases jay.. thinking/implying unless we have one or the other the guy in place is a dud..

that franchise QB are falling off trees and we are to stupid to not throw one to the wolves as a rookie.. instead of giving KO a chance to improve because in their minds he will never be good enough because he replaced jay..


For me Cutler has nothing to do with it. I wasnt sold on him either so he is irrelevant to this discussion for me. As for Orton getting his chance this and next year i dont see that changing. No one here in Broncosforums land control player changes and moves. People are just expressing themselves as to what they expect to see. But you can imagine people's frustration when we keep seeing the same result year in and year out. For me, the bottom line next year is i as a fan need to see some major improvements which (knock on wood) a lot of you guys have already predicted. Im still of the wait and see approach and until i see some major changes im not expecting much next year.

Northman
12-22-2009, 01:47 PM
Wow, nice argument. :rolleyes:

BTW, in another post, I provided these numbers:

Orton's comp percentage to Royal: 47%
Everybody else: more than 60%

If Eddie's slump is Orton's fault, then why doesn't that show up with the other
receivers? He is their QB, too.




Yes, I saw Big Ben.

5 February 2006: 9/21, 42.9%, 123yds, 0 TD, 2 INT, 22.6 QBR

In fact, Ben hasn't become consistently good until this year, his 6th year on
the field. Even then, he had bad games against Cincy and Cleveland this year.

Happens to the best of them . . .

-----

Jesus Top, quit being a drama queen so much. :rolleyes:

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:02 PM
For me Cutler has nothing to do with it. I wasnt sold on him either so he is irrelevant to this discussion for me. As for Orton getting his chance this and next year i dont see that changing. No one here in Broncosforums land control player changes and moves. People are just expressing themselves as to what they expect to see. But you can imagine people's frustration when we keep seeing the same result year in and year out. For me, the bottom line next year is i as a fan need to see some major improvements which (knock on wood) a lot of you guys have already predicted. Im still of the wait and see approach and until i see some major changes im not expecting much next year.

I see alot of changes coming next year in upgrading the OLINE.. and as you know has been my biggest harp forever.. we have stunk in the redzone forever.. at least back to TD/CP time.. we have been on this small fast smart OLINE crap since Zimmerman retired.. while the rest of the NFL was getting bigger on the DL's we stayed the same.. and the ZBS works pretty well when they are not loaded for bear in short yardage or inside the 5 yard line..

inside the red zone they simply do not have that much field they have to protect and can keep the DB's close to the LOS after all who is going to beat anyone deep with at most 30 yards to defend..

we have steadfastly in years past thought we could more all that beef while being out weighed by in some cases 30-50 pounds a man.. not counting on extra Biggies being brought in to hold the LOS..

Josh said when coming to town we had problems with the offense that not all was hunky dory we needed to get bigger STRONGER and faster on the OLINE.. and that was what he started to do.. but I think since the ZBS was working so well he thought he could hybridize it and get some pulling guard stuff they used in NE to work only to find out Hamilton in particular was not the man to do it.. than found out when the pocket collapsed from the middle that there were even more issues than he thought.. thus an upgrade at C and ORG I thin the OG can be had in rounds 3-4 but the center I think is going to have to come as FA... maybe a stud ORG in the draft will save caseys bacon not sure there. but two pint sized linemen next to each other was killing us.. maybe Polumbus can be a better guard than OT.. he certainly has the size for it.. and does not have to worry about speed rushers there going around him..

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 02:02 PM
Orton's comp percentage to Royal: 47%
Everybody else: more than 60%

If Eddie's slump is Orton's fault, then why doesn't that show up with the other
receivers?

-----

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Why did Cutler "not" have a problem throwing the ball to Royal ?

(Because Orton sucks)

If you want to throw stats around......try this one......if you are behind by a score and you need a first down......Eddie will get you a first down 75% of the time he catches it.

underrated29
12-22-2009, 02:16 PM
perhaps some are seeing what they want to see.. since I have not seen all of the games this year.. and those I did I did not spend countless hours studying the tivo like I have in the past I can't say but what I have seen and what Josh has said on more than ONE occasion..

perhaps there are 8-9 in the box prior to the snap but are dropping back in coverage at the snap and KO or the coaches are seeing this on their game tape.. I do not know for sure.. I trust them alot more than a couple of arm chair/MM QB's on here..


we have a few fans that are so invested in there favorite players they are not open to seeing what is or is not really happening .. you know beauty is in the eye of the beholder type thing.. so some still have visions of jay dancing in their heads.. Santa is bring them lumps of coal 3 days from now..

I'm willing to give Orton, Josh the benefit of doubt for now and IF they do not improve next year then I'll worry about if he is OUR future franchise QB or not.. after all Tom Brady was not a franchise QB his first year under this scheme either..

there has simply not been enough time in play here for them to know just yet..



Which is why i listed QB as my final area of need of improvement.


Kyle with our current OL and current play calling will not succeed. However, as i stated before. Josh Will Fix the OL this year, and once that is done i would bet almost anything the play calling will look better too. The direct result of that is Kyle should play great for us. (not that he isnt now, well he is more good than great now but still.)



That though still has nothing to do with the S playing high. So far this year i see a lot of cover two, with coverage rolled over to marshall. This means there is a soft spot in the zone, or single on royal,shceff,gaff, or stokes....or whoever is in the lineup. Yet the S still arent very deep.

I see this mostly on 3rd and 10 or so. Otherwise I see lots of 8-9 in the box. Not a whole lot of dropping back in coverage, or atleast dropping back deep.


I do not see All the teams we have played, as thats what has come out of Joshs mouth, they play their S deep. I have not seen all of them play deep on us. I am sure it holds water sometimes, or on film before they play us. But to me it seems more like an excuse for something. For what i dont know, but I cant grasp the concept that 13 teams so far have played us 2 deep all the time.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:32 PM
Which is why i listed QB as my final area of need of improvement.


Kyle with our current OL and current play calling will not succeed. However, as i stated before. Josh Will Fix the OL this year, and once that is done i would bet almost anything the play calling will look better too. The direct result of that is Kyle should play great for us. (not that he isnt now, well he is more good than great now but still.)



That though still has nothing to do with the S playing high. So far this year i see a lot of cover two, with coverage rolled over to marshall. This means there is a soft spot in the zone, or single on royal,shceff,gaff, or stokes....or whoever is in the lineup. Yet the S still arent very deep.

I see this mostly on 3rd and 10 or so. Otherwise I see lots of 8-9 in the box. Not a whole lot of dropping back in coverage, or atleast dropping back deep.


I do not see All the teams we have played, as thats what has come out of Joshs mouth, they play their S deep. I have not seen all of them play deep on us. I am sure it holds water sometimes, or on film before they play us. But to me it seems more like an excuse for something. For what i dont know, but I cant grasp the concept that 13 teams so far have played us 2 deep all the time.



hey I have not seen it myself either, personally have not been watching that much about it, (Being an EX OG I watch the OLINE alot and we are getting the crap beat out of us in the middle).. so I'll take your word on it..

But also have to respect what Josh is saying also..

SOCALORADO.
12-22-2009, 02:48 PM
For me Cutler has nothing to do with it. I wasnt sold on him either so he is irrelevant to this discussion for me. As for Orton getting his chance this and next year i dont see that changing. No one here in Broncosforums land control player changes and moves. People are just expressing themselves as to what they expect to see. But you can imagine people's frustration when we keep seeing the same result year in and year out. For me, the bottom line next year is i as a fan need to see some major improvements which (knock on wood) a lot of you guys have already predicted. Im still of the wait and see approach and until i see some major changes im not expecting much next year.

Pickler had nothing to do with it for me either.
This was an attitude issue. Not a physical, franchise QB issue.
Pickler thought his poop didnt stink, so he was shipped off, and because of his attitude, we realized he wasnt what many had him pegged as. Good. I am glad the problem was rectified in regards to Pickler. However, i dont think after watching Orton in DEN this year that the issue of a socalled, "franchise QB" has been resolved. Hasnt been resolved since John left.
SO i have no problem with the FO resolving it, in the draft, if thats what they do. if not, then we wait.
I think this thread shows that theres a combination of issues that need to be resolved in the offseason.

Northman
12-22-2009, 02:51 PM
Pickler had nothing to do with it for me either.
This was an attitude issue. Not a physical, franchise QB issue.
Pickler thought his poop didnt stink, so he was shipped off, and because of his attitude, we realized he wasnt what many had him pegged as. Good. I am glad the problem was rectified in regards to Pickler. However, i dont think after watching Orton in DEN this year that the issue of a socalled, "franchise QB" has been resolved. Hasnt been resolved since John left.
SO i have no problem with the FO resolving it, in the draft, if thats what they do. if not, then we wait.
I think this thread shows that theres a combination of issues that need to be resolved in the offseason.


Well again, if your a type of team that is going to have a game manager than you need to build around him. If thats the case than Josh will address that this offseason. But, some on here claim Orton to be more than that and if thats the case than next year in the same system he should be pretty much scoring at will with the talent he has behind him. Its just next year 17 points a game just isnt going to cut it.

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 03:17 PM
Well again, if your a type of team that is going to have a game manager than you need to build around him. If thats the case than Josh will address that this offseason. But, some on here claim Orton to be more than that and if thats the case than next year in the same system he should be pretty much scoring at will with the talent he has behind him. Its just next year 17 points a game just isnt going to cut it.

Problem is.. building AROUND him means building a defense that doesn't allow the other team to score. Thats MUCH harder to do, win a SB with defense, than building around a quality QB. I don't see how ANYONE can say that this offense isn't packed with talent. Yet we still can't score.

yes I know I know (before some on here jump on it).. .. its the OL. The OL that was the strength of this team last year is now the HUGE PROBLEM of our entire offense. :coffee:

topscribe
12-22-2009, 03:46 PM
Thats not true at all. Ben was more consistent last year than he is this year.

Okay, here is the comparison between the two years for Roethisberger:

2009 67.7 comp, 22 TD, 11 INT, 100.6 QBR
2008 59.9 comp, 15 TD, 17 INT, 80.1 QBR

Now, here are the QB ratings between the two years, game by game:

2009

89.6
80.8
95.6
128.9
123.9
113.6
87.8
116.0
51.5
109.0
123.3
75.1
121.9


2008

147.0
110.2
50.6
80.4
100.6
38.5
15.1
59.0
96.4
94.2
75.2
80.9
81.9
86.4
58.6


Once again, you are without documentation. I am not. :coffee:

-----

topscribe
12-22-2009, 03:49 PM
Jesus Top, quit being a drama queen so much. :rolleyes:

Right. You just go on debating. I shouldn't take part. If I do, I'm a drama queen.

What the hell is the matter with you, anyway? :tsk:

And I am not Jesus. Please do not use His Name so loosely when you address me directly.

-----

topscribe
12-22-2009, 03:56 PM
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Why did Cutler "not" have a problem throwing the ball to Royal ?

(Because Orton sucks)

If you want to throw stats around......try this one......if you are behind by a score and you need a first down......Eddie will get you a first down 75% of the time he catches it.

But he has caught it only 47% of the time.

And he is the only one under 60%.

If you have one cylinder missing and the others are firing, then the delivery
system (distributor, fuel) must be okay. The problem has to be with the
firing system in that cylinder, right? You don't go blaming the whole engine for
one cylinder.

I'm not bashing Eddie. I'm a big fan of Fast Eddie's. I'm just saying that if he
is the only one having receiving problems, then they need to see how they
can work with Eddie, not look at Orton.

-----

Northman
12-22-2009, 04:00 PM
Right. You just go on debating. I shouldn't take part. If I do, I'm a drama queen.

What the hell is the matter with you, anyway? :tsk:

And I am not Jesus. Please do not use His Name so loosely when you address me directly.

-----

Id appreciate it if you didnt use the term hell.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Id appreciate it if you didnt use the term hell.

Okay. If hell is your god, I respect that. :coffee:

-----

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Okay, here is the comparison between the two years for Roethisberger:

2009 67.7 comp, 22 TD, 11 INT, 100.6 QBR
2008 59.9 comp, 15 TD, 17 INT, 80.1 QBR

Now, here are the QB ratings between the two years, game by game:

2009

89.6
80.8
95.6
128.9
123.9
113.6
87.8
116.0
51.5
109.0
123.3
75.1
121.9


2008

147.0
110.2
50.6
80.4
100.6
38.5
15.1
59.0
96.4
94.2
75.2
80.9
81.9
86.4
58.6


Once again, you are without documentation. I am not. :coffee:

-----

ONCE again what? THIS is why we LIMIT your opinion to stats, because thats alllllll you look at. YOu, apparently, are unable to WATCH the games without thinking that STATS are what proves play. Stats are the START of a discussion, top.. NEVER the end. You keep bringing up stats as if they PROVE your point on play on the field. Stats NEVER prove the play on the field. Just like that lousy, ridiculous, WASTE of a stat "QB rating." That stat doesn't tell the story or the play on the field at ALLL. It was meant to give fans an EASY stat to look at, because most fans don't know what they are looking AT. The fact that you keep using them as your basis for your opinion on your statements, is really making my point for me. :lol:

** forgot my :coffee: **

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:07 PM
ONCE again what? THIS is why we LIMIT your opinion to stats, because thats alllllll you look at. YOu, apparently, are unable to WATCH the games without thinking that STATS are what proves play. Stats are the START of a discussion, top.. NEVER the end. You keep bringing up stats as if they PROVE your point on play on the field. Stats NEVER prove the play on the field. Just like that lousy, ridiculous, WASTE of a stat "QB rating." That stat doesn't tell the story or the play on the field at ALLL. It was meant to give fans an EASY stat to look at, because most fans don't know what they are looking AT. The fact that you keep using them as your basis for your opinion on your statements, is really making my point for me. :lol:

It won't work, Ravage. You are not going to stop me from using stats. I know
you would like for me to, because you have no answer for them.

That is an old philosophical ploy: If you have no answer for it, then dismiss it
as irrelevant or invalid. Works with libs and evolutionists quite well . . . :coffee:

But if you don't know what you are looking AT, then perhaps a class in
statistics would be in order. Just about every school teaches it . . .

P.S. If stats are alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll I look at, then
tell me, how many of Kyle's games did you see last year? How many clips did
you study? I studied them alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllll. At least alllllllllllllllllllllllll
I could find. Every one of them. And I saw about seven of his full games. I
also read and listened to allllllllllllllllllllllllll about him I could find . . .

And before I ever began that, I had a general negative feeling about him. But
then, I was open-minded . . . :coffee:

-----

Northman
12-22-2009, 04:10 PM
It won't work, Ravage. You are not going to stop me from using stats. I know
you would like for me to, because you have no answer for them.

That is an old philosophical ploy: If you have no answer for it, then dismiss it
as irrelevant or invalid. Works with libs and evolutionists quite well . . . :coffee:

But if you don't know what you are looking AT, then perhaps a class in
statistics would be in order. Just about every school teaches it . . .

-----

So the basis of your point is that Orton can throw a 5 yd pass but cant throw a TD to save his life. Gotcha. :salute:

elsid13
12-22-2009, 04:10 PM
Wow, nice argument. :rolleyes:

BTW, in another post, I provided these numbers:

Orton's comp percentage to Royal: 47%
Everybody else: more than 60%

If Eddie's slump is Orton's fault, then why doesn't that show up with the other
receivers? He is their QB, too.

-----

Royal is playing 2nd outside WR in this base 3 wide look. The WR that usually runs the deep routes in this system.

Those routes are what Gaffney ran in NE last season, and are designed to pull the over the top coverage away from the slot and #1 WR. If you look at Royal's number (37 catches 345 yrd) they are very similar to what Gaffney did in NE last season (38 catches 468). The low completion is because of Orton inaccuracy on deep routes.

The question please should be asking is why no production from slot WR in this offense?

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 04:11 PM
It won't work, Ravage. You are not going to stop me from using stats. I know
you would like for me to, because you have no answer for them.

That is an old philosophical ploy: If you have no answer for it, then dismiss it
as irrelevant or invalid. Works with libs and evolutionists quite well . . . :coffee:

But if you don't know what you are looking AT, then perhaps a class in
statistics would be in order. Just about every school teaches it . . .

-----

I know what I'm looking AT on the field. I have NOOO problem with using stats. BUt I'm smart enough to know that stats are NEVER EVER the story when talking abotu PLAY on the field. You, obviously, don't. Thats ok. But don't complain to me again why we only see your opinion as being stat based.... as you did before. Because you don't seem to see past the stats, and are limited to only basing an opinon formed by looking at the numbers on paper. So if you want to continue to only use your "QB rating" as some way to base your opinion on actual play on the field.... .more power to you. But know now why your opinion on Orton's skill level is so quickly dismissed.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:12 PM
So the basis of your point is that Orton can throw a 5 yd pass but cant throw a TD to save his life. Gotcha. :salute:

Huh? :confused:

-----

Northman
12-22-2009, 04:13 PM
Huh? :confused:

-----

I know, its tough to refute that. Im still down with ya bro.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:13 PM
I know what I'm looking AT on the field. I have NOOO problem with using stats. BUt I'm smart enough to know that stats are NEVER EVER the story when talking abotu PLAY on the field. You, obviously, don't. Thats ok. But don't complain to me again why we only see your opinion as being stat based.... as you did before. Because you don't seem to see past the stats, and are limited to only basing an opinon formed by looking at the numbers on paper. So if you want to continue to only use your "QB rating" as some way to base your opinion on actual play on the field.... .more power to you. But know now why your opinion on Orton's skill level is so quickly dismissed.

Speak for yourself.

YOU quickly dismiss my opinion. And you know what?

I don't give a shit. :coffee:

-----

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:15 PM
I know, its tough to refute that. Im still down with ya bro.

Refute what? Sorry I'm so dense. But I didn't know what the hel. . . er heck . . . you were getting at.

(Sorry . . . your god.)

-----

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:17 PM
Royal is playing 2nd outside WR in this base 3 wide look. That WR that usually runs the deep routes in this system.

Those routes are what Gaffney ran in NE last season, and are designed to pull the over the top coverage away from the slot and #1 WR. If you look at Royal's number (37 catches 345 yrd) they are very similar to what Gaffney did in NE last season (38 catches 468). The low completion is because of Orton inaccuracy on deep routes.

The question please should be asking is why no production from slot WR in this offense?

Hmmm . . . first, there is the charge that Orton refuses to throw deep.

Now, Royal's numbers are down because of Orton's inaccuracy on deep routes.

:confused:

-----

GEM
12-22-2009, 04:21 PM
Alright, let's stop getting stuck on the personal issues here and act like adults. Stick with the subject matter and the debate without getting the passive aggressive hits on each other in.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:25 PM
Alright, let's stop getting stuck on the personal issues here and act like adults. Stick with the subject matter and the debate without getting the passive aggressive hits on each other in.

Damn. Have I gotten soft? Passive aggressive?

I was shooting for direct hits.

Okay, GEM. I'll try to be a good boy. I'll try . . . :D

-----

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 04:30 PM
Alright, let's stop getting stuck on the personal issues here and act like adults. Stick with the subject matter and the debate without getting the passive aggressive hits on each other in.


for that matter might be nice to get

:focus:

Time To Vent: I Hate This Offense. Period.

Northman
12-22-2009, 04:45 PM
for that matter might be nice to get

:focus:

Time To Vent: I Hate This Offense. Period.


Same ol' same ol'. Different QB, same issues in the redzone. Your right, it sucks bad. :tsk:

topscribe
12-22-2009, 04:49 PM
Same ol' same ol'. Different QB, same issues in the redzone. Your right, it sucks bad. :tsk:

Well, minus all the INTs. But, you're right . . . they've been miserable down there.

Which is puzzling because Orton was deadly in the end zone last year . . .

-----

Northman
12-22-2009, 04:57 PM
Well, minus all the INTs. But, you're right . . . they've been miserable down there.

Which is puzzling because Orton was deadly in the end zone last year . . .

-----

Well, actually according to his stats he had 14 TD's in the redzone last year. He has 13 this year. About the same although he does have more to work with here and yet cant seem to connect.

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 04:57 PM
But he has caught it only 47% of the time.

And he is the only one under 60%.

If you have one cylinder missing and the others are firing, then the delivery
system (distributor, fuel) must be okay. The problem has to be with the
firing system in that cylinder, right? You don't go blaming the whole engine for
one cylinder.

I'm not bashing Eddie. I'm a big fan of Fast Eddie's. I'm just saying that if he
is the only one having receiving problems, then they need to see how they
can work with Eddie, not look at Orton.

-----

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________


Sidenote,

In modern engines, when one cylinder mis-fires, the O2 sensor reads it as being too "lean". (far more oxygen than fuel in the cylinder) It compensates by adding more fuel to the cylinders. (plural)

The problem with this particular engine is a weak fuel pump, the best option is to replace it.

Does Eddie drop balls on kickoffs ?

:elefant:

GEM
12-22-2009, 04:58 PM
Well, actually according to his stats he had 14 TD's in the redzone last year. He has 13 this year. About the same although he does have more to work with here and yet cant seem to connect.

I wonder what the percentage is running vs. passing in the red zone for this year. How many times we have attempted running vs. attempted passing.

Northman
12-22-2009, 05:01 PM
I wonder what the percentage is running vs. passing in the red zone for this year. How many times we have attempted running vs. attempted passing.

Let me see if i can find out. Hold on.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 05:03 PM
I'm holding but losing my grip..:salute:

rationalfan
12-22-2009, 05:05 PM
ONCE again what? THIS is why we LIMIT your opinion to stats, because thats alllllll you look at. YOu, apparently, are unable to WATCH the games without thinking that STATS are what proves play. Stats are the START of a discussion, top.. NEVER the end. You keep bringing up stats as if they PROVE your point on play on the field. Stats NEVER prove the play on the field. Just like that lousy, ridiculous, WASTE of a stat "QB rating." That stat doesn't tell the story or the play on the field at ALLL. It was meant to give fans an EASY stat to look at, because most fans don't know what they are looking AT. The fact that you keep using them as your basis for your opinion on your statements, is really making my point for me. :lol:

** forgot my :coffee: **

math only fails when there's a user error. the same could be said about stats. also, remember, win-loss records are also stats. that seems to negate your argument that stats never prove the play on the field.

regardless, this is the best unimportant message board argument i've read in a while.

Nomad
12-22-2009, 05:06 PM
Listening to Brian Billick on FSR a while ago, he said with the rules of today in the NFL a team with a solid passing game will excel and he gave Indy and SD as examples. Saying Indy is 32nd in rushing and SD is 30th in rushing!! He had a great interview and made great points but this stuck out to me!!

Superchop 7
12-22-2009, 05:07 PM
Alright, let's stop getting stuck on the personal issues here and act like adults. Stick with the subject matter and the debate without getting the passive aggressive hits on each other in.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________

So, I get in this huge crash at Vail, I look like Charlie Brown after getting hit by a pitch, glove here, glove there, ski still going down the slope, coat almost ripped off, so much ice in the zipper I can't zip it back up, bloody nose,..........people on the gondola cheering in appreciation.

My buddy comes up to me, stops, looks down.....and says......you broke my freaking goggles.

Then ski's down the hill.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 05:08 PM
Well, actually according to his stats he had 14 TD's in the redzone last year. He has 13 this year. About the same although he does have more to work with here and yet cant seem to connect.

But that's 14 vs. 13 out of how many times they were there, respectively?

It just seemed once he got down there it was TD time. That was backed by a
96-something QB rating in the red zone.

It's probably not as high this year . . .

-----

Northman
12-22-2009, 05:12 PM
But that's 14 vs. 13 out of how many times they were there, respectively?

It just seemed once he got down there it was TD time. That was backed by a
96-something QB rating in the red zone.

It's probably not as high this year . . .

-----

I dont know, at the moment i cant find the info on the run vs pass in the redzone for either team. But between this year and last year his Comp/Atts are almost identical. However, his comp percentage is up at a average of 62.4 with a QB rate of 89.2. His TD's overall are about the same but his interceptions are down. Fumbles are down from last year but not by much.

topscribe
12-22-2009, 05:31 PM
I dont know, at the moment i cant find the info on the run vs pass in the redzone for either team. But between this year and last year his Comp/Atts are almost identical. However, his comp percentage is up at a average of 62.4 with a QB rate of 89.2. His TD's overall are about the same but his interceptions are down. Fumbles are down from last year but not by much.

Yes, that was a red zone rating I gave. His overall rating last year was 79.6

Take a look at this: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/7282/passing_splits.html

His rating is 90.5 in the red zone. But his comp is down to 49%.

Now, I don't know off the top how the running game complements this, but I
will have to say that the failures of the Broncos down there have probably
cost them at least two games, and everybody has to start to execute better,
including him . . .

-----

SOCALORADO.
12-22-2009, 06:02 PM
According to this thread at 16 pages, is two-fold.
1. Orton is a career back-up QB at best who plays and tries hard. He has to be absolutely mistake free at all times in the robotic system, to have any kind of success, and the defense must be like the 2000 Ravens.
2. The offensive line needs to be revamped to max protect the QB, and road grade
for the running game.

Solutions???
Anyone??Anyone???
Please give your best case solution for this by next season.
Heres my opinion.

1. Go get Logan Mankins. pay him, and plug him in. He can road grade, and hes protected one of the best extremelly well in his career. If DEN has to pay a little bit to get him, go ahead, cause i dont think DEN should be really active in FA otherwise.
2. If DEN can somehow tender TE Tony Sheffler and trade him for a 2nd or 3rd, then do it!! Tony is walking if he hits FA anywyas, He'll want huge $$$, and their will be plenty of teams interested. NYG, GB, CAR to name a few. I dont know how DEN can do this, but if they can it would be great in aquiring another draft pick, but i am not so sure its feasible as of yet. I will have to look into it further, but if anyone has any info on this, i would appreciate it.
3. Get a QB in the draft. Preferably a tall, strong armed QB who can make all the throws and can play in the system. And isnt a head case, numbskull. Ryan Mallett ARK would be my 1st choice and if it means taking him in the 1st , so be it. Hes HUGE. Compared to Joe Flacco in every category. 6'6" 240 with a CANNON. I would prefer to move down in the draft to the 20s for DEN to do this, but i am now thinking that Mallett may just be the 1st QB taken in the draft. If thats the case, then Sean Canfield ORE ST would be the next best type of player for a MCD spread offense, in the 3rd round. Let whoever is drafted fight it out with Orton and Brandstater. If Kyle wants to walk, let him. MCD has a nice resume of taking young, no name QBs and being productive with them, so he would have a bunch of young guns to work with.
4. Use the rest of the draft to address the defense.
5. Resign Marshall, Doom and Kuper.

Nomad
12-22-2009, 06:06 PM
You'll get your chance watching Sean Canfield tonight!!

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 08:37 PM
I dont know, at the moment i cant find the info on the run vs pass in the redzone for either team. But between this year and last year his Comp/Atts are almost identical. However, his comp percentage is up at a average of 62.4 with a QB rate of 89.2. His TD's overall are about the same but his interceptions are down. Fumbles are down from last year but not by much.




but, but, but, stats don't mean anything haven't you heard?;)

the only thing that matters is how folks feel about him and for Gods sake never ever quote QB rating.. it is only for stupid people..:rolleyes:

Northman
12-22-2009, 09:14 PM
but, but, but, stats don't mean anything haven't you heard?;)

the only thing that matters is how folks feel about him and for Gods sake never ever quote QB rating.. it is only for stupid people..:rolleyes:

Nah, stats mean something but they are not the be all end all to what makes a good player.

getlynched47
12-22-2009, 11:35 PM
A pile of shit could call a better game than Josh McDaniels :coffee:

Get better Josh, we need some decent playcalling to win our final 2 games.

MOtorboat
12-22-2009, 11:44 PM
A pile of shit could call a better game than Josh McDaniels :coffee:

Get better Josh, we need some decent playcalling to win our final 2 games.

Care to enlighten us about the pre-season feelings you had?

I suspect you're just going to hide behind crap, as usual, but we all know this team is better than you thought they were, yet, we still have to listen to you bitch.

Pathetic, really.

topscribe
12-23-2009, 12:15 AM
Nah, stats mean something but they are not the be all end all to what makes a good player.

I believe you are 71.4% correct . . .

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getlynched47
12-23-2009, 01:19 AM
Care to enlighten us about the pre-season feelings you had?

I suspect you're just going to hide behind crap, as usual, but we all know this team is better than you thought they were, yet, we still have to listen to you bitch.

Pathetic, really.

Huh? What the hell is your problem?

I said in the OP that I was never a big fan of Josh McDaniels. And, quite honestly, I wasn't hiding behind anything because I'm talking about this offense, not how I thought that this team was going to be ass-horrible (like I'm the only one who believed that :rolleyes:)

So I can't "bitch" about this crappy offense only because I thought this team was going to suck during preseason? Now that's pathetic, if you ask me.

Anyways, you're off topic, and I really don't know why this pisses you off. Am I wrong in the OP? I'd be more than happy to discuss this topic with you.

silkamilkamonico
12-23-2009, 01:26 AM
A pile of shit could call a better game than Josh McDaniels :coffee:.

Please. I know you're trying, but don;t be a complete idiot about this. Josh is the one that engineered the #1 offense in NFL history.

Ziggy
12-23-2009, 01:51 AM
According to this thread at 16 pages, is two-fold.
1. Orton is a career back-up QB at best who plays and tries hard. He has to be absolutely mistake free at all times in the robotic system, to have any kind of success, and the defense must be like the 2000 Ravens.
2. The offensive line needs to be revamped to max protect the QB, and road grade
for the running game.

Solutions???
Anyone??Anyone???
Please give your best case solution for this by next season.
Heres my opinion.

1. Go get Logan Mankins. pay him, and plug him in. He can road grade, and hes protected one of the best extremelly well in his career. If DEN has to pay a little bit to get him, go ahead, cause i dont think DEN should be really active in FA otherwise.
2. If DEN can somehow tender TE Tony Sheffler and trade him for a 2nd or 3rd, then do it!! Tony is walking if he hits FA anywyas, He'll want huge $$$, and their will be plenty of teams interested. NYG, GB, CAR to name a few. I dont know how DEN can do this, but if they can it would be great in aquiring another draft pick, but i am not so sure its feasible as of yet. I will have to look into it further, but if anyone has any info on this, i would appreciate it.
3. Get a QB in the draft. Preferably a tall, strong armed QB who can make all the throws and can play in the system. And isnt a head case, numbskull. Ryan Mallett ARK would be my 1st choice and if it means taking him in the 1st , so be it. Hes HUGE. Compared to Joe Flacco in every category. 6'6" 240 with a CANNON. I would prefer to move down in the draft to the 20s for DEN to do this, but i am now thinking that Mallett may just be the 1st QB taken in the draft. If thats the case, then Sean Canfield ORE ST would be the next best type of player for a MCD spread offense, in the 3rd round. Let whoever is drafted fight it out with Orton and Brandstater. If Kyle wants to walk, let him. MCD has a nice resume of taking young, no name QBs and being productive with them, so he would have a bunch of young guns to work with.
4. Use the rest of the draft to address the defense.
5. Resign Marshall, Doom and Kuper.

1.Good call on Mankins, Socal. Line him up next Clady and the left side is good for the next 7-10 years.
2. I don't think that there's any way a team gives up a 2nd for Sheff. If there's a sucker out there that will, take the pick and run.
3. My QB of choice is Bradford. The kid can make every throw, is familiar with the spread, and reads defenses quickly. He also has the quickest release in college football. He's a perfect fit for this offense, NFL ready, and worth trading up for.
4. Re-sign Doom and Kuper.
5. Go after Vincent Jackson in free agency. He's a big body, big play wide receiver, without the character issues.
6. Franchise Marshall and let him go for 2 first round picks. If no team bites on it, the Broncos have him for another year at fair pay. Also, if he gets suspended again, our cap is only wasted for 1 more year. Next season, rinse and repeat.
7. Grab some depth at O-line in the draft.

silkamilkamonico
12-23-2009, 02:00 AM
1.Good call on Mankins, Socal. Line him up next Clady and the left side is good for the next 7-10 years.
2. I don't think that there's any way a team gives up a 2nd for Sheff. If there's a sucker out there that will, take the pick and run.
3. My QB of choice is Bradford. The kid can make every throw, is familiar with the spread, and reads defenses quickly. He also has the quickest release in college football. He's a perfect fit for this offense, NFL ready, and worth trading up for.
4. Re-sign Doom and Kuper.
5. Go after Vincent Jackson in free agency. He's a big body, big play wide receiver, without the character issues.
6. Franchise Marshall and let him go for 2 first round picks. If no team bites on it, the Broncos have him for another year at fair pay. Also, if he gets suspended again, our cap is only wasted for 1 more year. Next season, rinse and repeat.
7. Grab some depth at O-line in the draft.

I think you make some real good points, specifically 1-4, and 7. I couldn't agree more about Bradford.

I don't agree at all about Vincent Jackson. He's a one dimensional deep ball target, and he's probably going to get paid along the lines of top 5-10 money. That's far too much for a one trick pony.

I think you re-sign Marshall, and you take the chance on his character, and I wouldn't have said that at all at the beginning. I was actually an advocate of getting rid of him. The guy is a top 5 WR, will probably get even better, and everyone around the organization has again and again confirmed that he has really changed his perspective. I would take Rod Smith's word in a heartbeat.

broncophan
12-23-2009, 02:08 AM
I think you make some real good points, specifically 1-4, and 7. I couldn't agree more about Bradford.

I don't agree at all about Vincent Jackson. He's a one dimensional deep ball target, and he's probably going to get paid along the lines of top 5-10 money. That's far too much for a one trick pony.

I think you re-sign Marshall, and you take the chance on his character, and I wouldn't have said that at all at the beginning. I was actually an advocate of getting rid of him. The guy is a top 5 WR, will probably get even better, and everyone around the organization has again and again confirmed that he has really changed his perspective. I would take Rod Smith's word in a heartbeat.

I have not seen enough of Vincent Jackson to know.....but it seems like he always makes big plays against the Broncos......and the guy is huge...

silkamilkamonico
12-23-2009, 02:12 AM
I have not seen enough of Vincent Jackson to know.....but it seems like he always makes big plays against the Broncos......and the guy is huge...

Yea he makes huge plays. He's a big down the field threat. I think it's more of a staple of the Charger offense though. I don't think there is a better play action throw down the field team then them at the moment.

He reminds me a lot of Chris Chambers when he was in Miami. CLearly better than chambers though. I'm not sure I would put him as a top 10 WR in the NFL though.

Ziggy
12-23-2009, 02:15 AM
I like Vincent Jackson for a few reasons. He has gotten better every season. He uses his body well to shield the ball when it is coming in, he fights for the ball in the air, and he plays with a nasty attitude. On the other hand, if we don't fix this interior O-line, deep targets are a moot point anyways.

Lonestar
12-23-2009, 05:21 AM
I believe you are 71.4% correct . . .

-----

Sounds average to me.

Nomad
12-23-2009, 07:22 AM
I like Vincent Jackson for a few reasons. He has gotten better every season. He uses his body well to shield the ball when it is coming in, he fights for the ball in the air, and he plays with a nasty attitude. On the other hand, if we don't fix this interior O-line, deep targets are a moot point anyways.

I like watching Vincent Jackson plus he has a damn good QB throwing to him. I hate to say it but SD (too bad they're in our division) is fun to watch though I do dislike L. Tomlison!!

CoachChaz
12-23-2009, 07:51 AM
Before we jump all over the Mankins thing, I think we should look at Jahri Evans. Kid is a beast run blocker. Logan has sytem knowledge and he'd be great, but there are other options before we hand him the farm

HORSEPOWER 56
12-23-2009, 07:55 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the only real place on the line that needs a re-build is Center. Weigmann is old and is about done. The other guys are fine, they just need some real coaching. I think you all know where I think our problem lies so I'll leave it at that.

SOCALORADO.
12-23-2009, 08:42 AM
1.Good call on Mankins, Socal. Line him up next Clady and the left side is good for the next 7-10 years.
2. I don't think that there's any way a team gives up a 2nd for Sheff. If there's a sucker out there that will, take the pick and run.
3. My QB of choice is Bradford. The kid can make every throw, is familiar with the spread, and reads defenses quickly. He also has the quickest release in college football. He's a perfect fit for this offense, NFL ready, and worth trading up for.
4. Re-sign Doom and Kuper.
5. Go after Vincent Jackson in free agency. He's a big body, big play wide receiver, without the character issues.
6. Franchise Marshall and let him go for 2 first round picks. If no team bites on it, the Broncos have him for another year at fair pay. Also, if he gets suspended again, our cap is only wasted for 1 more year. Next season, rinse and repeat.
7. Grab some depth at O-line in the draft.


I dont know why, but i have a weird hunch that Bradford will be a Bronco come draft day. I just do. Just the way he plays, and the way the spread is set up in DEN, i think that he is the guy MCD targets. It would not suprise me at all to see him in DEN.
As for Canfield last night, bleh. The weather ruined that game before the 2 teams ever walked onto the field. He had a bad game. Shoot, ORE ST had a horrible game.
I like the Marshall plan. I do however hope DEN can just resign him, and keep him. And i also advocated getting rid of him. But hes just too freakin good. VJackson isnt close as a reciever to Marshall. He is good though.
I keep seeing vague posts that DEN can just tender players like Sheff or kuper. I am a little lost on this theory, but it seems some think this is possible. Not sure if it has to do with the CBA. hmm..

broncosinindy
12-23-2009, 09:24 AM
Before we jump all over the Mankins thing, I think we should look at Jahri Evans. Kid is a beast run blocker. Logan has sytem knowledge and he'd be great, but there are other options before we hand him the farm
Jahri Evans is New Orleans biggest free agent to be out there. I think he is not a UFA either. NO has the ability to tag him as a RFA. I would love to have him but there is no way he leaves NO this year. Unless it is a trade after he has been tagged.

broncosinindy
12-23-2009, 09:28 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the only real place on the line that needs a re-build is Center. Weigmann is old and is about done. The other guys are fine, they just need some real coaching. I think you all know where I think our problem lies so I'll leave it at that.

Problem is i do not see any Drafted player this year being able to start. There are no elite talents at C, The FA is very slim pickings as well. We could and i dont know if i like this is give Hamiliton a one year deal and move him to center. I dont know if he is any better then casey. Unfortunetly i am not very encouraged we will be able to fix it this next year.