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View Full Version : Were we out coached and deserved to lose?



broncofaninfla
12-20-2009, 09:15 PM
Were we out coached and deserved to lose?

silkamilkamonico
12-20-2009, 09:19 PM
I wanted to vote "yes" to we were outcoached today, but then you added that absurd part about the ego.

Josh is to humble. He needs to be more egotistical.

Northman
12-20-2009, 09:21 PM
Nah, but whatever motivation and intensity we started out with has been waning. Not too mention the offensive playcalling has been unimaginative. Cable didnt do anything special. He just ran it down our throats and controlled the clock. But the execution of this team and the redzone scoring is still a problem even now.

BroncoWave
12-20-2009, 09:21 PM
Wow, this isn't a loaded question at all. :rolleyes:

Nomad
12-20-2009, 09:21 PM
Was only able to watch a little of the game, but i'm sure you'll get some interesting answers! One thing I did notice, from that short while, was the BRONCOS didn't look interested being in this game!!

MasterShake
12-20-2009, 09:23 PM
I wanted to vote "yes" to we were outcoached today, but then you added that absurd part about the ego.

Josh is to humble. He needs to be more egotistical.

Exactly. We should have taken a cue from the Raiders and gone for it on 4th down and goal a few times. You'd think they were the ones playing for a playoff spot!

Players. Win. Games. Period.

I think we have a good team with great talent, but they need to execute. The coach can only tell them what to do.

Mike
12-20-2009, 09:23 PM
Could have worded the choices better.

SM19
12-20-2009, 09:23 PM
I'm no huge fan of Coach McDaniels, but outcoached by Tom Cable? Nah.

Medford Bronco
12-20-2009, 09:24 PM
Bad play calling after getting the ball back with 3:50 or so left in the game. Too many passes.

Oh well.

Oak has beat Pitt and Cincy as well so they are not that bad at times. :puke:

spikerman
12-20-2009, 09:25 PM
Nah, but whatever motivation and intensity we started out with has been waning. Not too mention the offensive playcalling has been unimaginative. Cable didnt do anything special. He just ran it down our throats and controlled the clock. But the execution of this team and the redzone scoring is still a problem even now.
Addressing the part about running it down the Broncos' throats - it's the same as last year. They can't stop the run. Of course, it's not very surprising considering the Broncos did nothing to address their biggest weakness last year (DL). Patchwork units typically don't work well.

Medford Bronco
12-20-2009, 09:26 PM
Exactly. We should have taken a cue from the Raiders and gone for it on 4th down and goal a few times. You'd think they were the ones playing for a playoff spot!

Players. Win. Games. Period.

I think we have a good team with great talent, but they need to execute. The coach can only tell them what to do.

We dont have great talent.
We have some good talent but need a much better O line
and some other spots as well.

We are a 9-7 team talentwise and are playing to that

The 6-0 looks like a fluke now:mad:

maybe Claymore was right

broncofaninfla
12-20-2009, 09:54 PM
Yet again we fail in the red zone, yet again we fail in short yardage situations.

Our short yardage situation was going to get better with Jordan? Really? a QG sneak was McD's answer to our short yardage issues? Really? We throw a pass to Clady in the redzone? Really?

MasterShake
12-20-2009, 09:55 PM
We dont have great talent.
We have some good talent but need a much better O line
and some other spots as well.

We are a 9-7 team talentwise and are playing to that

The 6-0 looks like a fluke now:mad:

maybe Claymore was right

I think you are spot on about the O-line. Probably what cost us the game today.

Shazam!
12-20-2009, 09:57 PM
Worst Poll Ever.

getlynched47
12-20-2009, 10:28 PM
Tom Cable outcoached Josh McDaniels. Who would've thunk it?!?!? :lol:

I think Josh McDaniels just outsmarts himself sometimes :coffee:

camdisco24
12-20-2009, 10:36 PM
Yes and No, I didnt pick either because of the wording.
Yes because there were some awful play calls.
No because the TEAM effort was TERRIBLE accross the board.
Offsence was weak, Offensive Line was disgracful, D couldnt stop the run... ect ect.... you cant put it all on the coach with the players dont do their part.

Im looking for a big rebound next week. I KNOW we can do it, but will they show up to do it?????????????

Lonestar
12-20-2009, 11:09 PM
your win and lose on the LOS and OAK has a much better DL than we have OLINE and vice versa..

RB can't run through non extent holes.. QB's only able to throw routes that are open for so long.. how many sacks today?

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-20-2009, 11:21 PM
This poll is ridiculous because of these blanketed statements, just make it a yes or no and it won't be so stupid.

NameUsedBefore
12-20-2009, 11:24 PM
Yes. In fact he's getting outcoached nearly every game -- and what in the hell is up with his clock management btw? Every game we're just throwing timeouts away.

If it weren't for Mike Nolan this team would be up a creek.

Timmy!
12-20-2009, 11:27 PM
If it weren't for Mike Nolan this team would be up a creek.

The offensive play calling today was completely retarded. 100% stupid. That said, the defense gave up almost 250 yards rushing. :shocked:

JDL
12-20-2009, 11:32 PM
This OL bs really needs to stop. This is the NFL and they are not going to open up huge holes. The reason Buck always seems to bust big plays Moreno cannot is that Moreno is missing HUGE backside holes... teams overpursue him to the frontside and he NEVER takes it back. He has missed more backside cuts than I care to remember. The other issue is this ridiculous Pats blocking scheme we continue to try and run. McDaniels has his head shoved so far up BBs @ss he doesn't seem to grasp that Denver owned New England and one of the reasons was Denver's superior running attack ... two questions

1) Last time you saw all OL fire off in unison to one side?

2) Last time you saw these stupid traps and pulls actually work?

The Patriots were never a great run team under BB, NEVER... so we dismantle our bread and butter (generally top 5 rushing attack system) to run New England's. I like some of the things McD has done... but this one thing has to be the absolute dumbest most arrogant thing he does. He continues to ram Moreno into short yardage situations and he just crawls up an OLs @ss and tries to push him. He can be a good back if he would just learn to see the holes that are there... this isn't college, a crease IS a hole, instead he just keeps pushing pushing pushing...gets tackled falls forward... when the frontside hole is NOT there ... you f-ing cut the ball back and he almost NEVER does that. Clearly I'm frustrated, but seriously, that is what is going on and all this bs excuses laying it all on the feet of the OL, is just absurd.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 08:31 AM
Yes. In fact he's getting outcoached nearly every game -- and what in the hell is up with his clock management btw? Every game we're just throwing timeouts away.

If it weren't for Mike Nolan this team would be up a creek.

Yeah...because Nolan's defense was SOOOO impressive. You're facing Charlie Frye. YOU PUT 8 MEN IN THE BOX!!! Or you sit back and let Oakland run for over 200. Not many teams win when the opponent rushes for that much.

As far as the offense...execution is key. There was no creativity in the playcalling, but there doesnt have to be. Just execute the plays that are called an you're fine. This team cant do that yet.

broncofaninfla
12-21-2009, 09:26 AM
Nolan put the players in postions to make tackles, they just kept missing.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Nolan put the players in postions to make tackles, they just kept missing.

That would be execution...not coaching.

Medford Bronco
12-21-2009, 06:47 PM
This OL bs really needs to stop. This is the NFL and they are not going to open up huge holes. The reason Buck always seems to bust big plays Moreno cannot is that Moreno is missing HUGE backside holes... teams overpursue him to the frontside and he NEVER takes it back. He has missed more backside cuts than I care to remember. The other issue is this ridiculous Pats blocking scheme we continue to try and run. McDaniels has his head shoved so far up BBs @ss he doesn't seem to grasp that Denver owned New England and one of the reasons was Denver's superior running attack ... two questions

1) Last time you saw all OL fire off in unison to one side?

2) Last time you saw these stupid traps and pulls actually work?

The Patriots were never a great run team under BB, NEVER... so we dismantle our bread and butter (generally top 5 rushing attack system) to run New England's. I like some of the things McD has done... but this one thing has to be the absolute dumbest most arrogant thing he does. He continues to ram Moreno into short yardage situations and he just crawls up an OLs @ss and tries to push him. He can be a good back if he would just learn to see the holes that are there... this isn't college, a crease IS a hole, instead he just keeps pushing pushing pushing...gets tackled falls forward... when the frontside hole is NOT there ... you f-ing cut the ball back and he almost NEVER does that. Clearly I'm frustrated, but seriously, that is what is going on and all this bs excuses laying it all on the feet of the OL, is just absurd.

The only year that NE ran great was 2004 when Corey Dillon got like 1600 plus yards and 15 plus tds. Otherwise spot on.

but I would have taken Antoine Smith on the goal line over Moreno and his lack of push. I am not a huge Hillis fan like some but he should get a chance on short yardage. He must have naked pics of McDaniels wife or something:lol:

Dzone
12-21-2009, 08:45 PM
Running quarterback sneaks is NOT smart with Orton. Why they did that I will never know.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 09:12 PM
Running quarterback sneaks is NOT smart with Orton. Why they did that I will never know.

Cause Orton is a power rusher and never gets hurt :shocked:

NameUsedBefore
12-22-2009, 08:28 AM
Yeah...because Nolan's defense was SOOOO impressive. You're facing Charlie Frye. YOU PUT 8 MEN IN THE BOX!!! Or you sit back and let Oakland run for over 200. Not many teams win when the opponent rushes for that much.

As far as the offense...execution is key. There was no creativity in the playcalling, but there doesnt have to be. Just execute the plays that are called an you're fine. This team cant do that yet.

Well clearly I was looking at the bigger picture -- i.e., holding many teams to very few points. AKA, 6-games in a row with the average offensive output of what, 17-points a game? If Mike Nolan isn't here and the offense is rolling a thunderous sub-20 points per game we don't break .500.

As for the offense... creativity isn't an issue? The lack of creativity is becoming a pretty serious issue. The curls and short slants haven't been working for some time and yet McDaniels still puts total faith in them -- screen passes on third and long, anyone? Clever stuff like that can work, but not when you make them mainstream; not when you fail to threaten other avenues of getting a first down. They will work for as long as the opposing defense lets them, then when it comes crunch time for this offense, when it actually really needs to get something going, the opposing defenses clamp down on the dainty passing game and force us elsewhere -- but McDaniels can't seem to make the adjustment from there.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 08:40 AM
Well clearly I was looking at the bigger picture -- i.e., holding many teams to very few points. AKA, 6-games in a row with the average offensive output of what, 17-points a game? If Mike Nolan isn't here and the offense is rolling a thunderous sub-20 points per game we don't break .500.

As for the offense... creativity isn't an issue? The lack of creativity is becoming a pretty serious issue. The curls and short slants haven't been working for some time and yet McDaniels still puts total faith in them -- screen passes on third and long, anyone? Clever stuff like that can work, but not when you make them mainstream; not when you fail to threaten other avenues of getting a first down. They will work for as long as the opposing defense lets them, then when it comes crunch time for this offense, when it actually really needs to get something going, the opposing defenses clamp down on the dainty passing game and force us elsewhere -- but McDaniels can't seem to make the adjustment from there.



In my experience it's always been pretty difficult to make an omelet without an egg.

I'll let you guys figure that out

Northman
12-22-2009, 09:14 AM
Actually, i think both Coach and Nub are right here.

Coach is right in the sense that it used to be when you played the Denver Broncos you knew what they were going to do. Even with Elway early in Shanahan's tenure you knew we were going to run Davis down your throat. There was no secret, it was up to the opposing defense to stop them. But back then the team executed 95% of the time. As time has gone on the amount of talent and age has caught up with Denver. But, Nub is also right in the sense that when you have a system and its not working you cannot keep trying to pound the square into the little round hole. You have to then become creative and adjust to scheme that is hindering you. There's plenty of blame to go around for why this team is yet again inconsistent from one week to the next, year in and year out. Thing is, we've seen this team be able to compete. Now its time to see some ingenuity and creativeness which hasnt shown up yet. Most of the players are there, they are just not being utilized properly.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 10:12 AM
Actually, i think both Coach and Nub are right here.

Coach is right in the sense that it used to be when you played the Denver Broncos you knew what they were going to do. Even with Elway early in Shanahan's tenure you knew we were going to run Davis down your throat. There was no secret, it was up to the opposing defense to stop them. But back then the team executed 95% of the time. As time has gone on the amount of talent and age has caught up with Denver. But, Nub is also right in the sense that when you have a system and its not working you cannot keep trying to pound the square into the little round hole. You have to then become creative and adjust to scheme that is hindering you. There's plenty of blame to go around for why this team is yet again inconsistent from one week to the next, year in and year out. Thing is, we've seen this team be able to compete. Now its time to see some ingenuity and creativeness which hasnt shown up yet. Most of the players are there, they are just not being utilized properly.

Except the scheme, the play-calling and the execution worked already...against 3 of our tougher opponents in fact. All the sudden, the plays that worked against playoff teams, dont work against Oakland and Washington? I dont buy it

Medford Bronco
12-22-2009, 10:22 AM
Except the scheme, the play-calling and the execution worked already...against 3 of our tougher opponents in fact. All the sudden, the plays that worked against playoff teams, dont work against Oakland and Washington? I dont buy it

I really think the OL is a huge problem. Esp on run blocking recently.

We shall see what happens.

I just hope we pull off an upset at Philly (not likely but one can hope)
or other teams we need to lose, lose.

I just want to see one playoff game this year for growth. Obviosly I want them to win but I dont expect much out of this bunch now.
Next year is the target year to make some noise.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 10:33 AM
I really think the OL is a huge problem. Esp on run blocking recently.

We shall see what happens.

I just hope we pull off an upset at Philly (not likely but one can hope)
or other teams we need to lose, lose.

I just want to see one playoff game this year for growth. Obviosly I want them to win but I dont expect much out of this bunch now.
Next year is the target year to make some noise.

The next big test for McD is this upcoming off-season. I've said before...if he fails to recognize the issues this current roster has (interior OL and the whole DL) and improve them...he will lose alot of my support as well.

I'd like to see a future improvement at QB as well, but that's not quite as easily fixed.

Ravage!!!
12-22-2009, 11:24 AM
Seems there was a LOT of people "jumping for joy" that our TCs were no longer going to be 'powder puff" and that we would NO LONGER see a second-half collapse.

The playcalling hasn't changed, and neither has the execution. But I don't see how the execution of the plays aren't just as much on the coaching as the players? I mean, the players all of a sudden got worse????

But the difference is that our defense isn't holding teams to 0 points anymore. The offense is still the same, but when your defense is now giving up points (a whopping 18 pts per game)....our offense doesn't have the luxury of playing it nice and slow and easy and hoping for the ONE big play.

Northman
12-22-2009, 01:32 PM
Except the scheme, the play-calling and the execution worked already...against 3 of our tougher opponents in fact. All the sudden, the plays that worked against playoff teams, dont work against Oakland and Washington? I dont buy it

I wouldnt really say it worked against some of our earlier opponents. At least consistently. Otherwise we wouldnt of been digging ourselves out of those early deficits. The scheme that McD uses calls for more scoring than we are actually getting. I mean yes, we arent executing like we should but now that the surprise is out of the box you would think he would make some adjustments to try and keep defenses guessing. I just havent seen any of that from McD yet.

CoachChaz
12-22-2009, 01:38 PM
I wouldnt really say it worked against some of our earlier opponents. At least consistently. Otherwise we wouldnt of been digging ourselves out of those early deficits. The scheme that McD uses calls for more scoring than we are actually getting. I mean yes, we arent executing like we should but now that the surprise is out of the box you would think he would make some adjustments to try and keep defenses guessing. I just havent seen any of that from McD yet.

I agree. But there is another side to that coin. If the QB has no faith in his arm and the team has moderate faith in the QB and the line suffers some injuries and isnt up to speed...things tend to take a step backwards. How can you make things more complex and imaginitive, if you dont have the tools to do it.

Does anyone really want to see Orton throwing 5 or 6 deep balls every game? And who's to say those plays are there and he simply chooses to find the shorter route. There have been many times I've seen Gaffney and Royal slotting up the middle only to witness a 5 yard out to Marshall.

Traveler
12-22-2009, 01:38 PM
Seems there was a LOT of people "jumping for joy" that our TCs were no longer going to be 'powder puff" and that we would NO LONGER see a second-half collapse.

The playcalling hasn't changed, and neither has the execution. But I don't see how the execution of the plays aren't just as much on the coaching as the players? I mean, the players all of a sudden got worse????

But the difference is that our defense isn't holding teams to 0 points anymore. The offense is still the same, but when your defense is now giving up points (a whopping 18 pts per game)....our offense doesn't have the luxury of playing it nice and slow and easy and hoping for the ONE big play.

Posted this on another message board. Concerning our offensive and defensive lines:

IRRC, there was an article this offseason that studied the play of big physical vs small finesse offensive and defensive line play at the beginning and toward the end of the season. Wish I could remember where I found it.

In short, the article stated that small OL & DL's- like ours- usually get worn down by mid-season and severely struggle towards seasons end. Whereas, bigger more physical teams struggle early and get better towards the end of the year. As we all know, smaller linemen have been a Bronco staple for almost a decade.

The Baltimore game exposed the major weakness on both our offense and defensive lines. Weakness that won't be corrected until we get the type of players in here that can physically beat the man in front of them one on one.

Without re-watching the game, Oakland has similar types of players on defense as Baltimore and a used a similar gameplan against us. We were flat out hammered physically on both sides of the ball.

Look for this to continue at Philly on Sunday because Denver hasn't shown physically they are capable of stopping a team like that.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Were we out coached? No. Were we phyically beaten? Definitely!

Northman
12-22-2009, 01:54 PM
I agree. But there is another side to that coin. If the QB has no faith in his arm and the team has moderate faith in the QB and the line suffers some injuries and isnt up to speed...things tend to take a step backwards. How can you make things more complex and imaginitive, if you dont have the tools to do it.

Does anyone really want to see Orton throwing 5 or 6 deep balls every game? And who's to say those plays are there and he simply chooses to find the shorter route. There have been many times I've seen Gaffney and Royal slotting up the middle only to witness a 5 yard out to Marshall.

Well, thats a great question. I keep hearing that Orton is capable of doing that very thing only McD is holding him back. Now, just being a fan i have to go on the assumption that McD knows what he is doing in terms of how he limits Orton's attempts down the field. For all i know maybe McD went with a conservative offense this year just to try and get the team confidence without having a mass collection of turnovers. I dont know. As for the plays being there i just cant believe that their arent plays to be made there. Just like the play in Indy where he underthrew Marshall. The play was there he just didnt execute it. Im not even sure if we have to throw it 50+ yds every game. But i think you do need to extend his range to like 30-40 more often. I mean, at least give the defense something to think about and allow them to quit crashing down on the running game.

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:20 PM
Except the scheme, the play-calling and the execution worked already...against 3 of our tougher opponents in fact. All the sudden, the plays that worked against playoff teams, dont work against Oakland and Washington? I dont buy it

to me it was lack of intensity.. IMHO they were trapped in both games.. the coaches gave them scheme, plan to do the job and our players flat got beat on the Field.. happens some times..

were thinking about playing Phiily next week and got beat up.. btw by a talented team..

Lonestar
12-22-2009, 02:26 PM
The next big test for McD is this upcoming off-season. I've said before...if he fails to recognize the issues this current roster has (interior OL and the whole DL) and improve them...he will lose alot of my support as well.

I'd like to see a future improvement at QB as well, but that's not quite as easily fixed.



not so sure that the entire DL needs to be upgraded but the NT does for certain.. and the OLG and center needs BEEF and a nasty attitude.. I would not turn away a stud DE or two but NT is numero uno of all spots on this team.. would love a Suh but do not see jay getting that top 1-3 choice for us..

might just get us a top 6-9 but even he can't blow it that bad..