Broncos QB Orton's toughness earns respect

[TXBRONC]

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14022392

Broncos QB Orton's toughness earns respect
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/18/2009 01:00:00 AM MST
Updated: 12/18/2009 03:02:24 AM MST

For ill-humored kicks, let's say the Broncos' first-round draft pick next April becomes an utter failure.

He turns out to be smaller than Ted Gregory, weaker than Marcus Nash, slower than Willie Middlebrooks, more illogical than Tommy Maddox.

We're talking Tony Mandarich-off-steroids-sized bust.

What would people make then of the trade that sent Kyle Orton and draft picks to the Broncos in exchange for Jay Cutler?

"If they would have made a one-for-one deal, I would take Orton straight up over Cutler, no question," said Joe Theismann, an NFL Network analyst and former quarterback. "Noooo question."

That may be easy to say now, but to Theismann's credit, he was on record making similar comments well before Cutler became a turnover disaster with the Chicago Bears and before Orton reinforced he has not necessarily been a winning quarterback because of a strong defense and strong running game, but because he's a winner, period.

Orton has a 29-16 lifetime won-loss record as a starting quarterback, 19-3 at home entering the Broncos' playoff-pivotal game Sunday afternoon against the AFC West-rival Oakland Raiders at Invesco Field at Mile High.

Orton appears to be on the brink of leading a second team to the playoffs, coupling these 8-5 Broncos with the 2005 Bears, whom he guided to a 10-5 mark as a rookie.

Cutler, meanwhile, is 22-28 lifetime and already guaranteed to miss the playoffs for the fourth season in his four-year career.

But never mind comparing Orton to Cutler. Orton has graduated beyond matching his play against the Bears' quarterback, who has thrown an NFL-high 22 interceptions.

With 16 touchdown passes against eight interceptions, Orton's TD-to- pick ratio ranks 10th among NFL quarterbacks with at least eight starts. His 8-4 record as a starter is tied with Arizona's Kurt Warner for eighth-best and Orton's 62.9 completion percentage is 12th.

"Pretty accurate passer," Broncos running back Correll Buckhalter said. "Didn't know that about him. What I remember about him in Chicago is they threw the ball downfield a lot. But he puts the ball where you want it."

Orton's performance this season might be better appreciated, perhaps, if people take into account how he's played through two serious injuries.

He played the first four games with a glove on his right throwing hand to protect his index finger, after he suffered an open dislocation in the preseason. He then suffered a severe left ankle sprain in Game 9 against Washington that is just now starting to come around.

"The two things Kyle wound up with are so detrimental to a quarterback — your finger and your ankle," Theismann said.

Orton has been performing with the upper-half of NFL quarterbacks this season despite having relatively good health for only four games.

"Obviously, the healthier you are (and) the better you feel, the better you are going to play," Orton said. "To start off the season for (four) games and have a broken finger, it's not perfect. It's not how you want it, but that's just how it is."

Orton probably had no business playing with his finger injury in the season opener at Cincinnati, or coming in late in the first half with his ankle injury against San Diego. But his willingness to play when not at his best perhaps translates into his uncanny ability to win.

"To be a leader of a quarterback, somebody your teammates always respect, you have to demonstrate toughness," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said. "And that means playing through some injuries. I think you have to demonstrate the ability to handle adversity, whether that means an injury or some other type of adversity. I think you have to handle pressure or criticism. Which I don't know if I've met anybody any better at handling — 'It didn't go well, but hey, you know what, we go to work, we get it better and we fix it.' "

It was McDaniels who dared to execute the highly criticized trade that sent Cutler and a fifth-round draft pick (Johnny Knox) to Chicago in exchange for Orton, a first-round pick in 2009 (Robert Ayers), a first-round pick in 2010 and a third-round pick that was packaged with another third-round draft choice to select tight end Richard Quinn.

Throw out all the extras, however, and Orton, a slow-footed, average-armed, fourth-round pick in 2005, clearly has outplayed Cutler, an athletic, rocket-armed, first-round pick in 2006.

"People can look at combine numbers and how big and tall or fast a guy is, but what you can't really measure is things that you don't see," Raiders star defensive lineman Richard Seymour said. "The ability to be a leader and have your troops rally around you and the heart that you play with.

"They can measure everything on the outside, but they can't really measure anything on the inside, and that's why you can have sixth- or seventh-round guys become awesome players and that's why you can also have first-round busts. It's really the measure of what's on the inside, and Kyle is a guy who plays that way."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

[claymore]

LOW Ball him!!!!!!!!!

[honz]

I love Orton. Dortoh and Clay can kiss my butt.

[claymore]

I love Orton. Dortoh and Clay can kiss my butt.

Im glad you guys like him. I dont know if I dislike the HC, the OC or the QB. The QB is the one I see, so he gets the blame, but the problem lays with one of the 3.

[Timmy!]

I hate winning seasons. Off with his head!

[GEM]

Clay, there is a thread talking about Orton and a contract already. Do we have to turn every single Orton thread into an Orton bash or the negative norm? I mean geez, we get it already.

[shank]

Clay, there is a thread talking about Orton and a contract already. Do we have to turn every single Orton thread into an Orton bash or the negative norm? I mean geez, we get it already.

clay just can't follow the rules. permaban him!!



:D

[Northman]

Im glad you guys like him. I dont know if I dislike the HC, the OC or the QB. The QB is the one I see, so he gets the blame, but the problem lays with one of the 3.

I feel ya, i was feeling the same way last year.

[Lonestar]

I like what he has brought to the team.. error free winning..

[Brand]

Yeah. It is terrible when the Broncos are winning.

[rcsodak]

The nice thing about having lower round qb's starting, is they don't have that instant target on them to PROVE they're worth the high billing they received. They just go out there and perform!

Until PManning becomes a FA, and McD grabs him, I'm glad Orton is the QB.

[Watchthemiddle]

The nice thing about having lower round qb's starting, is they don't have that instant target on them to PROVE they're worth the high billing they received. They just go out there and perform!

Until PManning becomes a FA, and McD grabs him, I'm glad Orton is the QB.

Orton has lived up to his billing and some. He is not a *cough cough* media hyped superstar like the previous QB here who has yet to live up to anything except playing catch with the defense.

[Watchthemiddle]

"To be a leader of a quarterback, somebody your teammates always respect, you have to demonstrate toughness," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said. "And that means playing through some injuries. I think you have to demonstrate the ability to handle adversity, whether that means an injury or some other type of adversity. I think you have to handle pressure or criticism. Which I don't know if I've met anybody any better at handling — 'It didn't go well, but hey, you know what, we go to work, we get it better and we fix it.' "

We have seen now Jake and Kyle handle adversity very well. Huh, two guys who did nothing but win while in the NFL...and yet you have guys drafted #11 over all who can't get out of their own way or lead a cow to water.

[Timmy!]

We have seen now Jake and Kyle handle adversity very well. Huh, two guys who did nothing but win while in the NFL...and yet you have guys drafted #11 over all who can't get out of their own way or lead a cow to water.

But damn can they throw the ball really hard!!

[rcsodak]

But damn can they throw the ball really hard!!

Which makes it easier for those int's to become pick-6's. ;)

[BroncoBJ]

Damn, I don't know why people always look at the negatives in every player. I wasn't a huge Jake Plummer fan but I was a fan of winning. And even though he didn't put up great numbers/stats, at least we won with him. I'd rather have someone who puts up average/poor stats and wins games. Rather then someone who puts up great stats and loses. Thats just me though. I'm a bit wack but I really enjoy winning. No joke. :elefant:

[Dzone]

How about those bears fans who were laughing at us back in August? Boy, I have had some harsh discussions with friends from Chicago. They defend Cutler like he is God. They blame Turner, lovie Smith, the Mccaskeys for Cutlers poor performance. They really dont think those 22 interceptions were Cutlers fault at all. LOL...well, it has to be frustrating to them that they may have a Ryan leaf on their hands.hahaha

[Dean]

I hate winning seasons. Off with his head!

I guess my question would whether winning season is the result of our offense. IMO the defense is dragging our offense into the play-offs and its a shame because there are multiple offensive weapons on rhe team.

[Timmy!]

I guess my question would whether winning season is the result of our offense. IMO the defense is dragging our offense into the play-offs and its a shame because there are multiple offensive weapons on rhe team.

Quick quiz:

Compared to last season, this year the offense is averaging how many points less per game?

A. 3.4
B. 5.7
C. 6.5
D. 7.2

If you answered A, you're a winner, and are probably lying. That's right. 3.4 points a game less. It doesn't seem like it, but it's a fact. People seem to think we had this unstoppable offense last season. That wasn't the case.

[Nomad]

I like Orton as well, but I wish he'd work on his pocket awareness and have some kind of mobility when he can't rely on his blockers! Other than that, Orton has a great locker room presence(according to players) and also a great leader plus he wins!! I hope his next 3 games are lights out!! I hear he's fan friendly too!!

[rcsodak]

I like Orton as well, but I wish he'd work on his pocket awareness and have some kind of mobility when he can't rely on his blockers! Other than that, Orton has a great locker room presence(according to players) and also a great leader plus he wins!! I hope his next 3 games are lights out!! I hear he's fan friendly too!!

Give him some time, Nomad. I'm curious to see what McD has instore for him this off-season.

I have a feeling the KO we see next year is going to be a more comfortable/improved version.

[Nomad]

Give him some time, Nomad. I'm curious to see what McD has instore for him this off-season.

I have a feeling the KO we see next year is going to be a more comfortable/improved version.

I am my friend!! It's just the areas I would like to see him improve and the most frustrating....overall I like Orton. But rc, I believe these last 3 games will be his make or break and I hope to see him do good!!

[rcsodak]

I am my friend!! It's just the areas I would like to see him improve and the most frustrating....overall I like Orton. But rc, I believe these last 3 games will be his make or break and I hope to see him do good!!

Oh yeh, of little faith. ;)

Relax, bud!

Pop open a cold one.

Sit back, and enjoy.

:beer:

[topscribe]

Give him some time, Nomad. I'm curious to see what McD has instore for him this off-season.

I have a feeling the KO we see next year is going to be a more comfortable/improved version.

Orton won't have the broken finger, his ankle will be healed, and Orton himself
said that this next camp is going to mean a lot to him.

Orton has done well for coming in, not only to a new team, but to new coaches
and a new system--both to the entire team--while at the same time having to
gel with his receivers and O-line, and, as I mentioned, playing through serious
injuries. He has been more than good this year, IMO.

-----

[Lonestar]

How about those bears fans who were laughing at us back in August? Boy, I have had some harsh discussions with friends from Chicago. They defend Cutler like he is God. They blame Turner, lovie Smith, the Mccaskeys for Cutlers poor performance. They really don't think those 22 interceptions were Cutlers fault at all. LOL...well, it has to be frustrating to them that they may have a Ryan leaf on their hands.hahaha

lots of fans here did the same thing when he did not win or threw picks it was all someone else's fault.. but because he was a "pro bowl QB" that meant he could do no wrong..


Quick quiz:

Compared to last season, this year the offense is averaging how many points less per game?

A. 3.4
B. 5.7
C. 6.5
D. 7.2

If you answered A, you're a winner, and are probably lying. That's right. 3.4 points a game less. It doesn't seem like it, but it's a fact. People seem to think we had this unstoppable offense last season. That wasn't the case.


outstanding ZINGER.. because we were number 2 in yards (between the 20's I add) everyone thinks the offense stinks this year.. while it has lots of room to improve 3rd down conversions, IMO that is more of a timing issue and play calling than QB failure..


I like Orton as well, but I wish he'd work on his pocket awareness and have some kind of mobility when he can't rely on his blockers! Other than that, Orton has a great locker room presence(according to players) and also a great leader plus he wins!! I hope his next 3 games are lights out!! I hear he's fan friendly too!!

lots of room for improvement in all regards there and as more players are comfortable and playing on insict and knowledge of the scheme the better they will get..


Orton won't have the broken finger, his ankle will be healed, and Orton himself
said that this next camp is going to mean a lot to him.

Orton has done well for coming in, not only to a new team, but to new coaches
and a new system--both to the entire team--while at the same time having to
gel with his receivers and O-line, and, as I mentioned, playing through serious
injuries. He has been more than good this year, IMO.

-----

and overcome all the bad feelings of replacing a demigod , the press lots of fans disliked him because he was not jay with a rocket arm..

[Northman]

Damn, I don't know why people always look at the negatives in every player. I wasn't a huge Jake Plummer fan but I was a fan of winning. And even though he didn't put up great numbers/stats, at least we won with him. I'd rather have someone who puts up average/poor stats and wins games. Rather then someone who puts up great stats and loses. Thats just me though. I'm a bit wack but I really enjoy winning. No joke. :elefant:

Overall when it comes to this team i do understand that philosphy. However, it is possible to have a Qb who puts up stats AND wins. And i think that is what some people are talking about. I love the fact that we are winning again but im not sold on Orton as the long term solution UNLESS McD is planning on winning a championship with a defense first philosphy in which he can build around Orton. But, since that philosphy is rare in itself i think it would be wise to look for a future prospect at the QB position who ultimately will be considered elite. IMO

[Dean]

Quick quiz:

Compared to last season, this year the offense is averaging how many points less per game?

A. 3.4
B. 5.7
C. 6.5
D. 7.2

If you answered A, you're a winner, and are probably lying. That's right. 3.4 points a game less. It doesn't seem like it, but it's a fact. People seem to think we had this unstoppable offense last season. That wasn't the case.

The turnover numbers have improved significantly and that is all on the offense but I think that you are overlooking something. How many of those scores came from or were set up by special teams and a defensive stop? How many times more has the defense given our O the ball? Haven't you noticed the improved field position? We aren't trailing the NFL this year.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think you are only looking at a small piece of the picture.

[Lonestar]

Overall when it comes to this team i do understand that philosphy. However, it is possible to have a Qb who puts up stats AND wins. And i think that is what some people are talking about. I love the fact that we are winning again but im not sold on Orton as the long term solution UNLESS McD is planning on winning a championship with a defense first philosphy in which he can build around Orton. But, since that philosphy is rare in itself i think it would be wise to look for a future prospect at the QB position who ultimately will be considered elite. IMO

just curious why you think Orton can not develop as a QB.. what has he done this year to prove he can't be a top 10 to 5 QB..

I just do not understand why there is no faith in him, Josh or the QB's coach to make him better in this offense..

why but a very few of us see the potential in Kyle that almost everone saw in jay..

do you only beleive that an elite QB can win the big one?

[Northman]

just curious why you think Orton can not develop as a QB.. what has he done this year to prove he can't be a top 10 to 5 QB..

I just do not understand why there is no faith in him, Josh or the QB's coach to make him better in this offense..

why but a very few of us see the potential in Kyle that almost everone saw in jay..


Just a feeling. But you know me better Jr as i have had nothing but support for Kyle when he first arrived and still give him support even now. But in the long run i dont see the "it" factor. I dont see a guy who can take over at any given moment and put the team on his back if need be. And i dont believe Cutler is that guy either but i do see more potential for that in Jay than i do Kyle. Guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were very good game managers (nothing wrong with that term) who excelled when the team around them was superior in every way. Kyle can easily win a SB with a more talented team around him but those moments and teams come by so rarely im not sure i would sell the farm to set one up in that way. This isnt a Kyle bash from me in any way but he does have a lot more limitations in my opinion than say a guy like Manning or Brady. Im not calling for Kyle to be replaced after this year but i do honestly believe that we will need to groom an elite talent behind him for our future. Whether or not we can win a SB with Kyle at the helm remains to be seen. I have all the faith in the world that we will continue to be competitive, far more than the last few years but just like when we had Jake i dont think Kyle will be the ultimate answer when it comes to crunch time. But hey, if Kyle can prove me wrong than thats a bonus for me as a Bronco fan. :D

[Lonestar]

Just a feeling. But you know me better Jr as i have had nothing but support for Kyle when he first arrived and still give him support even now. But in the long run i dont see the "it" factor. I dont see a guy who can take over at any given moment and put the team on his back if need be. And i dont believe Cutler is that guy either but i do see more potential for that in Jay than i do Kyle. Guys like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were very good game managers (nothing wrong with that term) who excelled when the team around them was superior in every way. Kyle can easily win a SB with a more talented team around him but those moments and teams come by so rarely im not sure i would sell the farm to set one up in that way. This isnt a Kyle bash from me in any way but he does have a lot more limitations in my opinion than say a guy like Manning or Brady. Im not calling for Kyle to be replaced after this year but i do honestly believe that we will need to groom an elite talent behind him for our future. Whether or not we can win a SB with Kyle at the helm remains to be seen. I have all the faith in the world that we will continue to be competitive, far more than the last few years but just like when we had Jake i dont think Kyle will be the ultimate answer when it comes to crunch time. But hey, if Kyle can prove me wrong than thats a bonus for me as a Bronco fan. :D

fair answer, just I do not agree with it.. that was not just calling you out but asking other also why they do not think he can develop into a consistent top ten QB..

and do we need an elite (whatever that definition really is) QB to be a consistent winner..

We all know that having a franchise QB without surrounding talent means nothing but getting our ass kicked in big games.. I count 2 super bowls that John could not do it all by himself..

I have seen Kyle move the team when behind a couple times this year and come from behind to win it.. and at that time he was nursing a dislocated finger on his throwing hand IIRC.. in some of those games he did not have a Marshall to help carry the team....

Just not sure what every one does not see in him that a few of us do.. Does it mean that we have to have a John Elway again to do this or we have no hope of winning super bowls?

[Northman]

fair answer, just I do not agree with it.. that was not just calling you out but asking other also why they do not think he can develop into a consistent top ten QB..

and do we need an elite (whatever that definition really is) QB to be a consistent winner..

We all know that having a franchise QB without surrounding talent means nothing but getting our ass kicked in big games.. I count 2 super bowls that John could not do it all by himself..

I have seen Kyle move the team when behind a couple times this year and come from behind to win it.. and at that time he was nursing a dislocated finger on his throwing hand IIRC.. in some of those games he did not have a Marshall to help carry the team....

Just not sure what every one does not see in him that a few of us do.. Does it mean that we have to have a John Elway again to do this or we have no hope of winning super bowls?


For me, there will never be another John Elway and so the bar has and always will be set high. Doesnt mean i wont give another Bronco QB a fair chance to make a name for himself and take his place among the many Bronco greats. But, despite some of the success that Kyle has had this year you do have to take it with a grain of salt. We caught a lot of teams off guard this year in terms of how we have played on all sides of the football. Obviously, when we have lost it hasnt always been on Kyle's shoulders alone but once teams go into next year and get have more film on how our offense works it wont take defenses long to find ways to figure us out. The question will be CAN Kyle improve. Especially in the long game which part of that falls on McD's shoulders as a coach. So, if your correct than we shall see going into next year. As of now having watch Orton in both Chicago and in Denver i havent seen anything to show me that he improve upon his current status as a QB individually.

[topscribe]

For me, there will never be another John Elway and so the bar has and always will be set high. Doesnt mean i wont give another Bronco QB a fair chance to make a name for himself and take his place among the many Bronco greats. But, despite some of the success that Kyle has had this year you do have to take it with a grain of salt. We caught a lot of teams off guard this year in terms of how we have played on all sides of the football. Obviously, when we have lost it hasnt always been on Kyle's shoulders alone but once teams go into next year and get have more film on how our offense works it wont take defenses long to find ways to figure us out. The question will be CAN Kyle improve. Especially in the long game which part of that falls on McD's shoulders as a coach. So, if your correct than we shall see going into next year. As of now having watch Orton in both Chicago and in Denver i havent seen anything to show me that he improve upon his current status as a QB individually.

Of course, Kyle can improve, and will improve. How can he not improve after
all the injuries through which he has played this season, on a new team with
new coaches in a new system, even to the coaches?

So he will be better, not only because of his own experience and return to
health, but because the entire team will have become more orientated to the
system, which will help Kyle immensely.

-----

[Northman]

Of course, Kyle can improve, and will improve. How can he not improve after
all the injuries through which he has played this season, on a new team with
new coaches in a new system, even to the coaches?

So he will be better, not only because of his own experience and return to
health, but because the entire team will have become more orientated to the
system, which will help Kyle immensely.

-----

Orton has been plagued with injuries his entire career not just in Denver. If thats the biggest reason for him not improving than we still have a problem there. Like i said, we will see how he does next year but im not really holding my breath as i believe we have seen the extent to which Orton can be effective as a QB.

[topscribe]

Orton has been plagued with injuries his entire career not just in Denver. If thats the biggest reason for him not improving than we still have a problem there. Like i said, we will see how he does next year but im not really holding my breath as i believe we have seen the extent to which Orton can be effective as a QB.

He would have to not have improved in order to have a reason for not improving.
Orton has improved.

But you can't tell me that he can be on top of his game with a compound
dislocation of a finger on his throwing hand, then a high ankle sprain.

And his "entire career" amounts effectively to three (3) seasons: his (healthy)
rookie year, when he quarterbacked an 11-5 playoff team, last year on a team
that barely missed the playoffs, and, of course, this year, 8-5 and playoff
bound so far.

Now, if you are trying to imply "injury-prone," I don't buy it. "Injury-prone," to
me, composes hamstrings and owies incurred from fragility, not injuries from
300-pounders landing on your ankles or a bone bursting through the skin.

But you have glossed over all the other factors I listed. Kyle is going to be
better in a system of which he is familiar, along with coaches, an O-line, and
receivers with which he is familiar, and another year's experience with another
camp. That should be a no-brainer.

But let's not forget he hasn't been all that bad this year . . .

-----

[Northman]

But let's not forget he hasn't been all that bad this year . . .

-----

I have never said he hasnt played well this year. However, we will still have to agree to disagree of him improving as a top notch Qb who can carry a team if need be.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Northman, he practices 14 and 15 hours on wednesday and thursday well after the rest of the team leaves. If that doesn't tell you he's always going to improve then just look at how quick he is learning this extremely-complicated-by-all-accounts system.

Or, just look at the fact that he's 19-3 at home.

[topscribe]

I have never said he hasnt played well this year. However, we will still have to agree to disagree of him improving as a top notch Qb who can carry a team if need be.

I would have agreed with you, had I not seen him take over in the NE and Dallas
games and in two or three games last year. I really believe the opinions you
(who are not necessarily anti-Orton but have your doubts) and others (who
are) base it on the stigma he carries with you. I had the same impression before
I observed his past performances thoroughly and saw his capabilities.

But I guess our disagreement in this area is severe, when you don't think Orton
can take over, and I know he can . . .

-----

[Northman]

Northman, he practices 14 and 15 hours on wednesday and thursday well after the rest of the team leaves. If that doesn't tell you he's always going to improve then just look at how quick he is learning this extremely-complicated-by-all-accounts system.

Or, just look at the fact that he's 19-3 at home.

Again, this isnt about his work ethic. This isnt about him as a team player. This isnt about him playing smart and having a winning record. This is about him improving to the point to where he could carry a team need be if the rest of the team fails around him. It takes a certain special kind of QB to accomplish that kind of task. To me, right now Kyle Orton is not that kind of QB. He may prove me wrong next year but im not counting on it. However, so as long as we keep winning its all irrelevant but in the reality of the NFL 9 times out of 10 you need an elite QB who can take over when the rest of the team fails.

[Northman]

I would have agreed with you, had I not seen him take over in the NE and Dallas
games and in two or three games last year. I really believe the opinions you
(who are not necessarily anti-Orton but have your doubts) and others (who
are) base it on the stigma he carries with you. I had the same impression before
I observed his past performances thoroughly and saw his capabilities.

But I guess our disagreement in this area is severe, when you don't think Orton
can take over, and I know he can . . .

-----

Fair enough, i will have to see much more of those comebacks when opposing teams are actually prepared for it. The Dallas and NE games were good drives but in the Indy game he wasnt able to make the plays that a elite QB needs to make when the time calls for it. And that game was well after the early year comebacks. Time will tell i guess.

[topscribe]

Again, this isnt about his work ethic. This isnt about him as a team player. This isnt about him playing smart and having a winning record. This is about him improving to the point to where he could carry a team need be if the rest of the team fails around him. It takes a certain special kind of QB to accomplish that kind of task. To me, right now Kyle Orton is not that kind of QB. He may prove me wrong next year but im not counting on it. However, so as long as we keep winning its all irrelevant but in the reality of the NFL 9 times out of 10 you need an elite QB who can take over when the rest of the team fails.

No, I don't buy that. A quarterback--any quarterback--needs a team that doesn't fail.

Even Elway didn't win the Super Bowl without a good defense and an exceptional O-line and running back . . .

-----

[Northman]

No, I don't buy that. A quarterback--any quarterback--needs a team that doesn't fail.

Even Elway didn't win the Super Bowl without a good defense and an exceptional O-line and running back . . .

-----


Although thats true Elway also carried 3 bad teams to the SB which is a tough task within itself. If your implying that Orton is on that same level than i definitely disagree with you.

[topscribe]

Fair enough, i will have to see much more of those comebacks when opposing teams are actually prepared for it. The Dallas and NE games were good drives but in the Indy game he wasnt able to make the plays that a elite QB needs to make when the time calls for it. And that game was well after the early year comebacks. Time will tell i guess.

You can pick out single games for any QB, where he didn't come through. Name
him: Elway, Montana, Marino, Brady, P. Manning--anybody--and I can dig up
games where he couldn't make the plays in given games . . .

-----

[Northman]

You can pick out single games for any QB, where he didn't come through. Name
him: Elway, Montana, Marino, Brady, P. Manning--anybody--and I can dig up
games where he couldn't make the plays in given games . . .

-----

Sure, but those are rare and far in between. The fact is Top that you have your "A" level Qb's, your "B" level, and so on. Orton just happens to fall in the "B" level for me which means he requires more help than the "A" level QB to succeed in this league. Doesnt mean he is horrible, but nowhere near the level of the elite. And he has done nothing to prove that he can be on that level ever in his career. Fact is, special QB's show within the first couple of years the kind of impact and career they will have. Right now, Kyle hasnt shown me that he is on the elite level. If he comes out and proves me wrong next year than great. I lose nothing here.

[topscribe]

Although thats true Elway also carried 3 bad teams to the SB which is a tough task within itself. If your implying that Orton is on that same level than i definitely disagree with you.

Please don't pull that Broncos Country kiddie stuff that I am trying to equate
Orton with Elway.

Please don't . . .

But let's just consider Elway's 1980s Super Bowl teams. What happened in each
of the games? Why? Answer: mediocre to bad defenses.

Now, consider Rothlisberger's performance in his Super Bowl game after the 2005
season. What happened in that game? Why? It wasn't Big Ben's performance--
a 21-something QB rating--for sure. It was his defense, wasnt' it?

What you pointed out only reinforces my point. A quarterback--any
quarterback--needs a team that will not fail him.

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[Northman]

Please don't pull that Broncos Country kiddie stuff that I am trying to equate
Orton with Elway.

Please don't . . .

But let's just consider Elway's 1980s Super Bowl teams. What happened in each
of the games? Why? Answer: mediocre to bad defenses.

Now, consider Rothlisberger's performance in his Super Bowl game after the 2005
season. What happened in that game? Why? It wasn't Big Ben's performance--
a 21-something QB rating--for sure. It was his defense, wasnt' it?

What you pointed out only reinforces my point. A quarterback--any
quarterback--needs a team that will not fail him.

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No reason to get offended and insulting Top. We are just having a discussion in which we just dont agree on the impact of our current QB. Yes, any QB needs to have help. In order for Peyton to get his ring he needed his defense to play at a medium to good level. But Manning was still the main driving force and still is for that team. Elway needed the same thing along with a great running game. But, it does not take away from him actually getting to the SB with some subpar teams. You keep saying that all these QB's need help but then somehow disagree that Orton cant be on that same level. At least that is how i am taking your posts since you seem to use that as the basis of your arguements. Are you in the belief that had Orton been on this team last year that he would of put up similiar numbers as Jay? I say no.