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Lonestar
12-15-2009, 04:01 PM
Krieger:
By Dave Krieger
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST


By popular demand, let's have a look at the strange case of Peyton Hillis, the 250-pound, second-year back who, like a George Orwell character, has become a nonperson at Dove Valley under mysterious circumstances.

Here's Broncos coach Josh McDaniels on Hillis back in June, during an offseason minicamp, as quoted by my colleague Jim Armstrong: "We're going to use every skill he has. He does a lot of things well. He can run the ball as a single back or he can catch the ball out of the backfield. He can block in two- back sets or he can split out wide. He's got great hands and he's a very tough runner to bring down when you give him the ball. So he'll do a lot of different things for us."

Here's McDaniels on Hillis at the end of August, during the preseason, as quoted by my colleague Jeff Legwold: "Kind of an older- school guy. Physical fits him, tough fits him, smart, plays a lot of positions on our team."

Here's McDaniels after Sunday's game at Indianapolis when I asked if he might address his team's difficulties in short yardage with Hillis, a bigger back than Correll Buck- halter or Knowshon Moreno:

"No."

Here's McDaniels when I asked him why: "We're putting our best player out there in that situation."

Here's McDaniels on Monday when I asked him if he had changed his opinion of Hillis since last summer: "Nope. He's done everything we've asked him to do and he's filled in when we've asked him to fill in and will likely play a broader role this week, depending on Buckhalter's health and availability for this game."

Here's McDaniels when talk radio host Les Shapiro mentioned fans think Hillis is in his doghouse: "He's not in the doghouse."

Hillis carried the ball one time Sunday, for 2 yards, just after Moreno ran for 11 and took a breather. Buckhalter already had gone out with the injured ankle that had him on crutches after the game.

Hillis carried the ball 68 times for 343 yards as a rookie last season, an average of just more than 5 yards per carry, leading a decimated running back corps in rushing and sometimes imitating a freight train. He has carried it 12 times in 11 games this season for 54 yards.

So when Moreno was stuffed on third-and-1 and fourth-and-1 near the end of the first half Sunday, short-circuiting a key scoring chance, it was natural to ask why Hillis, who outweighs Moreno by 35 pounds, didn't get a try.

McDaniels offered three reasons:

1. The Broncos' running game has been good the way it is and Buckhalter and Moreno have converted plenty of short-yardage situations.

2. When Spencer Larsen went down with a back injury on the opening kickoff, it left Hillis the only fullback for McDaniels' two-back sets, so he couldn't play halfback.

3. The short-yardage struggles had nothing to do with the runners and everything to do with the offensive line.

These all have a certain logic, but they're not particularly convincing. If McDaniels were still as high on Hillis as he was last summer, wouldn't he at least give him a try in power rushing situations?

"He's a very tough runner to bring down when you give him the ball," he said then.

Has that changed? Did Hillis show up late for a meeting, forget to brush his teeth, leave a horse's head in somebody's bed? Hillis answers these questions carefully — especially the one about the horse's head — trying not to dig himself deeper into the doghouse he's not in.

"I do what I can when they want me to," he said after Sunday's game. "I can't pick and choose when I can go in there and play. I can only wait for my time."

Even if McDaniels is right that defensive penetration, not the running back, was the Broncos' problem in short yardage, you'd think a big back who could plow through a tackler or two would be just as helpful in that case.

I'm not trying to suggest that Hillis would dramatically change an offense that now fits the definition of mediocre by most statistical measures. Still, sometimes it seems McDaniels would rather make a point than a first down. Why wouldn't you try your big back in short yardage after repeatedly failing with smaller backs? There's something happening here, and what it is ain't exactly clear.

When I asked McDaniels if he agrees that big backs make sense in short yardage, he said Buckhalter and Moreno are big backs, each weighing in excess of 215 pounds. So there you go.

Whatever's going on, if Buckhalter can't play Sunday, McDaniels may have no choice but to find out if Hillis' fans have a point.

Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com or twitter.com/DaveKrieger

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13998702

SOCALORADO.
12-15-2009, 04:04 PM
Em kay, so which one of you is Krieger? Hmm, cmon just out with it!

BroncoWave
12-15-2009, 04:33 PM
I think you should start another thread JR.

Lonestar
12-15-2009, 04:36 PM
I think you should start another thread JR.

I did..:laugh:

broncofaninfla
12-15-2009, 05:01 PM
Krieger:
By Dave Krieger
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/15/2009 01:00:00 AM MST



I'm not trying to suggest that Hillis would dramatically change an offense that now fits the definition of mediocre by most statistical measures. Still, sometimes it seems McDaniels would rather make a point than a first down. Why wouldn't you try your big back in short yardage after repeatedly failing with smaller backs? There's something happening here, and what it is ain't exactly clear.


Whatever's going on, if Buckhalter can't play Sunday, McDaniels may have no choice but to find out if Hillis' fans have a point.

Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com or twitter.com/DaveKrieger

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13998702

Love the line in bold, I wonder the same thing.

BroncoWave
12-15-2009, 05:30 PM
Love the line in bold, I wonder the same thing.

I think it's a load of crap.

What point is he trying to prove? He's never had anything but positive things to say about Peyton Hillis. I think anyone who truly believes that he's not playing him "just to make a point" has become blinded to the point of delusion out of their love for Hillis.

If anyone REALLY thinks he'd rather prove some point than get first downs or win ballgames, then there's really nothing else that can be said to you.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-15-2009, 06:15 PM
It is a load of crap. Anything for the Hillis Crowd to grasp at to make their case. Too bad Hillis sucks.

broncofaninfla
12-15-2009, 07:39 PM
It is a load of crap. Anything for the Hillis Crowd to grasp at to make their case. Too bad Hillis sucks.

What is it Req, did a guy who looked just like Hillis steal your girlfriend or beat you up for lunch money when you were in school?

I honestly think it would make you mad if he did come in and kick *ss and even worse if Denver wins as a result.

Hillis isn't a threat to Moreno, he is possibly a unused resource for our short yardage situations. If he fails, then he joins Buck and Moreno as yet another back that has failed in those situations behind that line. If he suceeds then the TEAM is better as a result.

rcsodak
12-15-2009, 09:33 PM
Oct article, after the Raider game.


McDaniels said he'll continue to count on Hillis as the team's short-yardage specialist and Jordan as the "four-minute" back when the Broncos are holding a lead and trying to run down the clock. Still, he said, any of the team's running backs should be ready to take the ball in goal-line or short-yardage situations.

"We still have a lot of confidence in Peyton Hillis," McDaniels said. "We're going to have a lot of confidence in Peyton Hillis. But all of our backs take reps on goal-line. That's not uncommon."

Hillis said it's critical for the short-yardage specialist to finish the drives the offensive unit starts.

"You kind of put the whole team on your shoulders at that point," he said. "They drive the ball way down to the goal line, and, you don't want to create undue pressure per se, but you know you have to get it in."

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_13464225?source=searchles#ixzz0ZoYe6BRD

The same game where Hillis false started, moving the ball from the 1 back to the 6.

He also got stuffed at the LOS, repeatedly, as did the other backs.

Lets not forget that even when Shanny was coaching, redzone/short yardage SUCKED! And MANY, if not all of you, were whining about needing bigger/better Olineman.

Show me a team with crappy Olines, and I'll show you a team that has the same problems.

It's NOT necessarily the rb's, OR the scheme.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Actually, he kicked my dog.

Northman
12-15-2009, 09:41 PM
Some of what McD said doesnt make a lot of sense. I understand that once Larsen went out it left it up to Hillis to be the FB but is McD implying he doesnt run any FB sets with the tailbacks? I still dont understand not using 2 threats vs one in those situations. I do realize the Oline was having issues but come on, Hillis is a much stronger player and has proven he can be reliable in those situations. Just strange but i really hope McD isnt risking games just to try and save face somehow. That would suck.

shank
12-15-2009, 10:12 PM
Actually, he kicked my dog.

good.

TXBRONC
12-15-2009, 10:17 PM
good.

Rednecks like Hillis don't kick dogs without just cause.

jhildebrand
12-15-2009, 10:24 PM
I think it's a load of crap.

What point is he trying to prove? He's never had anything but positive things to say about Peyton Hillis. I think anyone who truly believes that he's not playing him "just to make a point" has become blinded to the point of delusion out of their love for Hillis.

If anyone REALLY thinks he'd rather prove some point than get first downs or win ballgames, then there's really nothing else that can be said to you.

I kind of disagree with your point, BTB. You clearly have a problem when your coach is also the GM. As it has been mentioned, McD has said all of the nice things about Hillis. We know he isn't one to talk for the sake of hearing himself talk or to heap meaningless praise. Clealry McD meant what he said about Hillis. If you truly believe all of those things, why did Hillis go 2 months between carries? Jordan got a call before Hillis.

McD drew heat for taking Moreno at 12. The problem with McD as a coach and GM is he has a vested interest to give "his" guy every chance to succeed whereas any other coach will play the guy who gives the team the best chance to win.

Something certainly is there. Krieger was on with Scott and Al this afternoon. I will see if I can find a link to it. He makes a pretty clear case, IMHO.

Superchop 7
12-15-2009, 11:57 PM
Force equals mass times acceleration.

Any coach with half a brain puts the big back in.

Puh-leeze.

You damn well know this is an ego/dog house thing.

jhildebrand
12-16-2009, 12:02 AM
IF it is because Spencer Larsen got hurt and he "needed" a FB than I find that hard to believe as Hillis was lined up for 5 plays. Richard Quinn or the lineman McD used earlier in the season can do that.

I guess for me the issue is why have Hillis on the roster at all. Go steal a DT off somebody's practice squad and see if you get lucky. It would be more productive.

Superchop 7
12-16-2009, 12:04 AM
But I will give Kreiger his due.

Word on the street is this.....

If you are media.

You are not allowed to even "ask" about Hillis.

You will be treated like crap by the Broncos of you do.

So Dave, I tip my cap.

Took a pair on your part to do that.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-16-2009, 12:10 AM
They should post on the forums here, I think a few did at the Mane.

nevcraw
12-16-2009, 12:50 PM
I cannot wait to see Hillis destroy Faider's Front seven..

Then we will hear - "this exactly the what we expected when we came up with the gameplan. The offense would run the same with any back we put in there".

I do like our new coach a lot but this little conspiracy smells like 3 day old fish..

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 04:45 PM
But I will give Kreiger his due.

Word on the street is this.....

If you are media.

You are not allowed to even "ask" about Hillis.

You will be treated like crap by the Broncos of you do.



source.

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 04:50 PM
since y'all think you're coaches regarding the hillis situation i thought i'd try thinking like a coach too. here's the result:

the offensive line's holes close so damn fast buckhalter's the only back swift enough to get through them without being gang tackled. hillis doesn't work in short yardage or any situations because he's too slow to the hole. doesn't matter how strong the guy runs, if the hole has disappeared by the time he gets to the line the guy's useless.

rather than focus fanboy fondness on a particular running back, why not wonder why the coaches didn't call more sweeps and off-tackle runs? those were, repeatedly, our biggest gains from the running game sunday.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 05:31 PM
since y'all think you're coaches regarding the hillis situation i thought i'd try thinking like a coach too. here's the result:

the offensive line's holes close so damn fast buckhalter's the only back swift enough to get through them without being gang tackled. hillis doesn't work in short yardage or any situations because he's too slow to the hole. doesn't matter how strong the guy runs, if the hole has disappeared by the time he gets to the line the guy's useless.

rather than focus fanboy fondness on a particular running back, why not wonder why the coaches didn't call more sweeps and off-tackle runs? those were, repeatedly, our biggest gains from the running game sunday.

were they the ones called or did the RB make the decision when they got to teh LOS?

we may never know..

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 05:48 PM
were they the ones called or did the RB make the decision when they got to teh LOS?

we may never know..

i doubt knowshon emancipated himself from the play's intended design. the dude loves to cut and juke, yet those runs didn't come as the result of spontaneous movement. plus, he had several chances to bounce runs outside the line and he didn't.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 05:54 PM
i doubt knowshon emancipated himself from the play's intended design. the dude loves to cut and juke, yet those runs didn't come as the result of spontaneous movement. plus, he had several chances to bounce runs outside the line and he didn't.


but in the last half he made several runs off tackle for good yards..

I did not to get to see the games in total till last nights replay on NFLN and it had me wondering just what all the ruckus was on game day..

broncofaninfla
12-16-2009, 07:43 PM
I hope we do see Hillis this weekend. He deserves a chance to improve on our anemic short yardage running game.

Medford Bronco
12-16-2009, 08:12 PM
Rednecks like Hillis don't kick dogs without just cause.

Only Brian Griese kicks, I mean falls over dogs:lol:

shank
12-16-2009, 08:22 PM
"Not when he's the only fullback," McDaniels said.

knowshon was the only halfback and he was limping into the huddle... :confused:

oh well. we'll see what happens against oakland.

jhildebrand
12-16-2009, 08:24 PM
since y'all think you're coaches regarding the hillis situation i thought i'd try thinking like a coach too. here's the result:

the offensive line's holes close so damn fast buckhalter's the only back swift enough to get through them without being gang tackled. hillis doesn't work in short yardage or any situations because he's too slow to the hole. doesn't matter how strong the guy runs, if the hole has disappeared by the time he gets to the line the guy's useless.

rather than focus fanboy fondness on a particular running back, why not wonder why the coaches didn't call more sweeps and off-tackle runs? those were, repeatedly, our biggest gains from the running game sunday.

Funny, the same O line last year had the same issues opening holes like they do this year. Hillis had no problem running for 5 YPC.

This year when the holes were hard to come by in the Cleveland game, yes the Cleveland game, who did McD call on late in the game to punch it in? Hillis.

The fact is Buckhalter was and has been injured in games and Moreno is either running tired or just plain ineffective. If that is the case, what do you have to lose running Hillis on some of those plays? NOTHING!

It seems like it would be common sense to use a big, powerful back to soften a D early and then shift to a faster, still strong back to gash and gas them. The Bucs employed it with great success with Alstott and Dunn.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 09:09 PM
Funny, the same O line last year had the same issues opening holes like they do this year. Hillis had no problem running for 5 YPC.

This year when the holes were hard to come by in the Cleveland game, yes the Cleveland game, who did McD call on late in the game to punch it in? Hillis.

The fact is Buckhalter was and has been injured in games and Moreno is either running tired or just plain ineffective. If that is the case, what do you have to lose running Hillis on some of those plays? NOTHING!

It seems like it would be common sense to use a big, powerful back to soften a D early and then shift to a faster, still strong back to gash and gas them. The Bucs employed it with great success with Alstott and Dunn.

your way to logical, for those fans that do not like him, to get..:salute:

dogfish
12-16-2009, 10:27 PM
McDaniels blamed the short-yardage failures on poor blocking by the offensive line and others, not bad runs by Moreno.

"The back is the last thing I'm concerned about on short yardage," McDaniels said. "If you don't stop the penetration, which killed us (Sunday) in every single one of those situations, you can give the ball to Franco Harris or anybody else, they're not getting a yard."

well maybe if you don't just try to jam the ball into the A gap in every single one of those situations, maybe they don't blitz the hell out of it and keep blowing it up. . .


just sayin'. . . .

jhildebrand
12-16-2009, 10:36 PM
well maybe if you don't just try to jam the ball into the A gap in every single one of those situations, maybe they don't blitz the hell out of it and keep blowing it up. . .


just sayin'. . . .

Not to mention one back out with a bad ankle and the other who just bummed his ankle up and you have him run the same play...twice??? :tsk:

People think this is bad now. Just wait until we see this kind of crap in the playoffs-assuming we make the playoffs.

rcsodak
12-16-2009, 11:04 PM
But I will give Kreiger his due.

Word on the street is this.....

If you are media.

You are not allowed to even "ask" about Hillis.

You will be treated like crap by the Broncos of you do.

So Dave, I tip my cap.

Took a pair on your part to do that.

That's funny...

I just read a clip from Klis, where he gave praise to McD for never backing away from a question...always answering.

You sure you weren't in some dark, stinky alley?

rcsodak
12-16-2009, 11:10 PM
Funny, the same O line last year had the same issues opening holes like they do this year. Hillis had no problem running for 5 YPC.

This year when the holes were hard to come by in the Cleveland game, yes the Cleveland game, who did McD call on late in the game to punch it in? Hillis.

The fact is Buckhalter was and has been injured in games and Moreno is either running tired or just plain ineffective. If that is the case, what do you have to lose running Hillis on some of those plays? NOTHING!

It seems like it would be common sense to use a big, powerful back to soften a D early and then shift to a faster, still strong back to gash and gas them. The Bucs employed it with great success with Alstott and Dunn.

I know I'd feel alot better about Moreno, if he'd somehow learn that evil trick of staying upright!

How many times last week, did he loose his legs...trip over his own feet....with nobody even around him?

Is he SO fast, that he can't 'pick 'em up and put 'em down' without tripping?

dogfish
12-16-2009, 11:58 PM
I just read a clip from Klis, where he gave praise to McD for never backing away from a question...always answering.



have you listened to any of his pressers? he may always answer, but he never says anything. . . . :lol:



as for knowshon. . . the kid displayed absolutely tremendous balance throughout his college career-- i thought it was his single most impressive physical attribute. . . i don't know what the hell is going on with him stumbling around, but i have a feling that the game is still moving really fast for him, and that he's really pressing to make plays instead of just letting his instincts take over. . .

not that he hasn't been productive this year, but i really expect us to see him playing at a different level next season. . .

Ravage!!!
12-17-2009, 12:00 AM
I look at these highlights, and it just irritates me MORE to see that we aren't using this Kid more often. He is HARD to bring down, and has great hands. Just makes NO sense whatsoever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HAiaY3vps&feature=related

jhildebrand
12-17-2009, 12:07 AM
I know I'd feel alot better about Moreno, if he'd somehow learn that evil trick of staying upright!

How many times last week, did he loose his legs...trip over his own feet....with nobody even around him?

Is he SO fast, that he can't 'pick 'em up and put 'em down' without tripping?

For all the talk i.e. "excuses" that there is always a defender in the back field or hole why is it hardly mentioned all the occasions Moreno has made it to the second level only to trip or go down on a shoe string tackle?

Chris90210
12-17-2009, 09:23 AM
I look at these highlights, and it just irritates me MORE to see that we aren't using this Kid more often. He is HARD to bring down, and has great hands. Just makes NO sense whatsoever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HAiaY3vps&feature=related

:salute: I love that vid

I really wish he didn't get hurt last year:mad:

jhildebrand
12-17-2009, 12:47 PM
:salute: I love that vid

I really wish he didn't get hurt last year:mad:

I love that video for a couple of reasons:

1. It highlights sevral runs where defenders were in the backfield and Peyton made them miss or plowed through them.

2. He is only tackled by one person from behind after a long catch

3. He has as much speed to get to the outside or up the gut on long runs as Moreno has shown.

scott.475
12-17-2009, 01:05 PM
His receiving is pretty darn good too. On the catch where he got hurt, you would expect to see from a receiver, not a running back. He got a lot of air going up for that catch. Run that vid to :24 seconds and really take a look at how much elevation he gets from the ground and over the defenders...but he is just average talent.:tsk:

Lonestar
12-17-2009, 01:16 PM
I'll take 11 GUYs with his attitude and "average" talent any day for my team.

I suspect that it would be above average in wins.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Dreadnought
12-17-2009, 01:25 PM
well maybe if you don't just try to jam the ball into the A gap in every single one of those situations, maybe they don't blitz the hell out of it and keep blowing it up. . .


just sayin'. . . .

There is an old saying I have always liked, sometimes attributed to Churchill - "Stubborness is a stupid and weak man's imitation of resolve"

Not saying its necessarily stubborness that's at work here, but of all human failings its one of my least favorite.

rationalfan
12-17-2009, 01:45 PM
I love that video for a couple of reasons:

1. It highlights sevral runs where defenders were in the backfield and Peyton made them miss or plowed through them.

2. He is only tackled by one person from behind after a long catch

3. He has as much speed to get to the outside or up the gut on long runs as Moreno has shown.

believe me, i'm being objective here, but methinks you're still seeing that video through fan-colored eyes. hillis does look good in those highlights, but he was caught from behind a couple times and I didn't see too many defenders in the backfield.

regardless, he did look good.

but the most striking thing about that collection of clips is how much i miss the play-action roll out play. it seemed to work every time.

broncofaninfla
12-17-2009, 01:47 PM
With Buck missing practice again it's looking likely that Hillis will get some game reps this weekend.