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broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 10:49 AM
Short yardage, big problem

Broncos repeatedly falter when only handful of yards needed
By Lindsay H. Jones
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/14/2009 01:00:00 AM MST


Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13991037#ixzz0Zg8DudPr (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13991037#ixzz0Zg8DudPr)
INDIANAPOLIS — The Broncos ended up with 357 yards of offense in Sunday's 28-16 loss, but it's the handful of yards they couldn't come up with that seemed to bother the team most.
Yes, the Short-Yardage Nightmare is back.
Much like they did in the first month of the season, the Broncos struggled most in the shortest of down-and-distance situations against Indianapolis, and failed runs and incomplete passes killed several promising drives.
The Broncos converted only 1-of-6 opportunities on third or fourth down when they needed fewer than 3 yards. They converted only 6-of-17 third downs overall.
The Broncos also were stopped three times on fourth down, including twice on fourth-and-1.
"We talked all week about finishing every play and finishing every opportunity, and we certainly didn't do that," quarterback Kyle Orton said.
The short-yardage problems plagued the Broncos' offense from the start, particularly on the ground.
Colts linebacker Gary Brackett wrapped up running back Correll Buckhalter for a 1-yard loss on a third-and-short play on the Broncos' first possession of the game.
On the next drive, after a third- down pass from Orton to Eddie Royal came up a yard short of the first down, Brackett again burst into the backfield to tackle running back Knowshon Moreno for no gain on fourth down.
Then in the second quarter, Moreno again needed only a yard but was stopped on back-to-back running plays, on third and fourth down.
"It was good stops by the defense," Moreno said. "All you can do is try your hardest and try your best for the team to try to get the first down."
With Buckhalter out of the game by the middle of the second quarter with a sprained ankle, the Broncos relied on Moreno, the rookie who has gained many of his 837 yards this season on runs between the tackles.
Those yards were not there Sunday, though, against the speedy Colts defense.
In fact, the Broncos' only third- down conversion on the ground came in the fourth quarter, on Orton's only attempt at a quarterback sneak. Orton caught the Colts' defense unprepared, quick-snapped the ball and pushed forward for 2 yards.
After the game, coach Josh McDaniels defended Moreno and dismissed the idea of third tailback Peyton Hillis getting carries in short-yardage situations.
"No," McDaniels said. "We had our best guy in there in that situation."
Hillis, the Broncos' biggest back, had one carry in short relief of Moreno on Sunday.
The Broncos also committed penalties — a delay of game and a false start — two other times lined up at third-and-1 in the third quarter. The team was unable to convert either time after moving back 5 yards when Orton was sacked to end one drive, then threw an interception at the Colts' 1-yard line to end the other.
"You can't set yourself back the way we did today," McDaniels said.

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 10:54 AM
It's not enough to just read this, watch Mcd's press conference after the game. He will never admit it's a scheme or personel issue. This has been going on ALL SEASON LONG. He is the head coach, it's his responsibility to fix this and he hasn't. Mcd is a stubborn full for not trying Hillis more in these situations and his stubborness will cost us opportunities to compete in games just like yesterday. I lost all respect and lost support for Mcd as a result of this.

Traveler
12-14-2009, 10:55 AM
I wouldn't take it that far BroncofaninFLA.

But, Wow! JMFMcD not even considering using Hillis in short yardage. WTF?

Wonder what his isssue (if there is one) is with Hillis?

After reading this, my educated guess is that Hillis and Jordan won't be with the team next season.

topscribe
12-14-2009, 10:58 AM
McDaniels might stubbornly insist that they had their "best guy in there," but
I cannot imagine 237-pound Gary Brackett stuffing 250-lb Hillis that easily . . .

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claymore
12-14-2009, 10:59 AM
It's not enough to just read this, watch Mcd's press conference after the game. He will never admit it's a scheme or personel issue. This has been going on ALL SEASON LONG. He is the head coach, it's his responsibility to fix this and he hasn't. Mcd is a stubborn full for not trying Hillis more in these situations and his stubborness will cost us opportunities to compete in games just like yesterday. I lost all respect and lost support for Mcd as a result of this.

We will never run well from the Shotgun with this offensive line and a QB that doesnt scare anyone.

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:00 AM
I wouldn't take it that far BroncofaninFLA.

But, Wow! JMFMcD not even considering using Hillis in short yardage. WTF?

Wonder what his isssue (if there is one) is with Hillis?

After reading this, my educated guess is that Hillis and Jordan won't be with the team next season.

I'm guessing your right. I also think Hillis will get significant playing time with who ever he signs with. I think Jordan is probably done but I'd be game to see him in a short yardage situation over Moreno right now.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:01 AM
It's easy to blame the coach and "lose all respect for him"...again. But read into it more. What I gather from his explanation is that it has nothing to do with the back...it's all about the line not stepping up. Is it harder to tackle Hillis than it is Moreno? Maybe...but I dont care how big you are, if you're geting hit immediately after receiveing the handoff, you're not going to be successful.

I'll be one of few to admit that I dont know as much as the head coach of this team. He has a projected 3-6 win team heading toward a playoff berth. So yeah...he doesnt deserve respect. Childish

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:04 AM
McDaniels might stubbornly insist that they had their "best guy in there," but
I cannot imagine 237-pound Gary Brackett stuffing 250-lb Hillis that easily . . .

-----

I agree. The Oline struggled yetserday BUT the tackles that were bringing down Moreno were arm tackles. Hillis has shown you need more than a arm tackle to bring him down.

In Mcd's press conference, you can tell he has a "thing" about this subject. Meanwhile we are no better now than we were at the beginning of the season in short yardage situations and the only personel change we have made has been Hochstien who BTW was get knocked on his *ss through out the game.

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:07 AM
It's easy to blame the coach and "lose all respect for him"...again. But read into it more. What I gather from his explanation is that it has nothing to do with the back...it's all about the line not stepping up. Is it harder to tackle Hillis than it is Moreno? Maybe...but I dont care how big you are, if you're geting hit immediately after receiveing the handoff, you're not going to be successful.

I'll be one of few to admit that I dont know as much as the head coach of this team. He has a projected 3-6 win team heading toward a playoff berth. So yeah...he doesnt deserve respect. Childish

I give Nolan more credit for our teams success than Mcd.

i agree the oline failed in these situations but give the ball to the big kid who has shown he can break arm tackles just to get a fighters chance out of the situation. It's a fail before the ball is snapped with Moreno in the backfield in short yardage situations when the line is playing like that.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:08 AM
I find it amusing that people really think Hillis will be a superstar RB and a guarantee to pick up short yardage yards.

claymore
12-14-2009, 11:10 AM
I didnt see any arm tackles. I saw the right side of our line get blown up. The only guy I like is clady. We just arent equipped to do what JMCD wants us to do.

Medford Bronco
12-14-2009, 11:11 AM
I find it amusing that people really think Hillis will be a superstar RB and a guarantee to pick up short yardage yards.

I said in the summer that Buck was better than him. We missed buck yesterday and has had a good year. the 1/2 tandem is not the problem with Denver. There are other issues here but if you told me we would be 8-5 with a playoff chance I would have laughed big time

also the overrated :franchiseqb: has 22 picks. If he played here this year we would be 7-6 at best, maybe even 6-7

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:12 AM
I find it amusing that people really think Hillis will be a superstar RB and a guarantee to pick up short yardage yards.

I don't think he would be a superstar but I do feel he is our best option in short yardage situations.

claymore
12-14-2009, 11:12 AM
I give Nolan more credit for our teams success than Mcd.

i agree the oline failed in these situations but give the ball to the big kid who has shown he can break arm tackles just to get a fighters chance out of the situation. It's a fail before the ball is snapped with Moreno in the backfield in short yardage situations when the line is playing like that.

I agree a 100%. We would be in serious trouble with last years defense.

Prepare for the flames!!!!!

:flame:

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:12 AM
I didnt see any arm tackles. I saw the right side of our line get blown up. The only guy I like is clady. We just arent equipped to do what JMCD wants us to do.

100% CORRECT!!!

However...we still need to try, just as we are every week. Because eventually we WILL have the personnel in place to achieve the execution and success that comes with it and we'll be badass!!!

Yeah...there were a few arm tackles out there...but ther were usually 6 arms involved

SOCALORADO.
12-14-2009, 11:20 AM
This is a offensive Line issue. Not a RB issue.
The offensive line needs to be reworked from a light quick line to a road grater power/protection line. Keep Clady and Harris and re-sign Chris Kuper in the offseason. Then sign FA Logan Mankins in the offseason. Get a Center in the draft. Theres like 4 really good ones.
If DEN only signs FA Logan Mankins in the offseason, and resigns Marshall, Doom and Kuper, i am good.

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:23 AM
This is a offensive Line issue. Not a RB issue.
The offensive line needs to be reworked from a light quick line to a road grater power/protection line. Keep Clady and Harris and re-sign Chris Kuper in the offseason. Then sign FA Logan Mankins in the offseason. Get a Center in the draft. Theres like 4 really good ones.
If DEN only signs FA Logan Mankins in the offseason, and resigns Marshall, Doom and Kuper, i am good.

I partially agree. I feel it is a Oline issue, RB issue in regards of the personel used and play calling. We are weak across the board in short yardage situations and have been all season long.

claymore
12-14-2009, 11:25 AM
I partially agree. I feel it is a Oline issue, RB issue in regards of the personel used and play calling. We are weak across the board in short yardage situations and have been all season long.

3rd down playcalling is what really pisses me off. It doesnt matter if its 3rd and one or 3rd and 8. I always walk away shaking my head.

SOCALORADO.
12-14-2009, 11:27 AM
3rd down playcalling is what really pisses me off. It doesnt matter if its 3rd and one or 3rd and 8. I always walk away shaking my head.

There has been alot of, "WTF?!?!?!?" going on with me on 3rd down this year as well.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:29 AM
3rd down playcalling is what really pisses me off. It doesnt matter if its 3rd and one or 3rd and 8. I always walk away shaking my head.


There has been alot of, "WTF?!?!?!?" going on with me on 3rd down this year as well.

No arguments...but my questions on 3rd down play calling have been on the defensive side of the ball.

Every damn game (especially yesterday) has been Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Touchdown

Frustrating

Dirk
12-14-2009, 11:38 AM
It's easy to blame the coach and "lose all respect for him"...again. But read into it more. What I gather from his explanation is that it has nothing to do with the back...it's all about the line not stepping up. Is it harder to tackle Hillis than it is Moreno? Maybe...but I dont care how big you are, if you're geting hit immediately after receiveing the handoff, you're not going to be successful.

I'll be one of few to admit that I dont know as much as the head coach of this team. He has a projected 3-6 win team heading toward a playoff berth. So yeah...he doesnt deserve respect. Childish

It's always easy to be the Monday Morning Coach.....


Like it or not, McD has gotten us to where we are today. Nolan wouldn't be here if not for McD.

Ravage!!!
12-14-2009, 11:41 AM
It's always easy to be the Monday Morning Coach.....


Like it or not, McD has gotten us to where we are today. Nolan wouldn't be here if not for McD.

And we wouldn't have the record we have had without Nolan. :beer:

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 11:42 AM
It's always easy to be the Monday Morning Coach.....


Like it or not, McD has gotten us to where we are today. Nolan wouldn't be here if not for McD.


And we wouldn't be in the playoff hunt if it wasn't for Nolan.

If Mcd gets credit for all that is right he should also get the blame for what is wrong.....The short yardage situation has been an issue for us all season long and Mcd has failed to fix it......

scott.475
12-14-2009, 11:45 AM
OK, so it is an O-line issue, not a RB issue, so because of that we will keep using the RB that has pretty consistently shown he can't carry people over the guy we have seen push 4 or 5 defenders down the field for extra yards fairly regularly? I am supposed to be happy that we won't use the RB who can actually overcome some of the deficits or our O-line? Give me a frickin' break. I will grant you the play calling on third down yesterday was stupifyingly laughable, as if the coach had no memory of recent history, but I fell pretty confident that Hillis could have pushed some of those defenders downfield for the yard we needed on a few occasions.

I am not saying Moreno is a bust, and he seems to be OK at dodging tacklers, but he is not good at breaking or carrying tacklers, that is just the truth. Oh, and he fumbled on the goal line again yesterday, right? Granted, a helmet hit the ball, but come on, how many excuses does this guy need?

I am just frustrated, not saying Hillis would end up being the #1, but the FACT is we have seen him carry multiple defenders time after time and why McD would not use him to overcome the problems of the O-line boggles the mind.

I also don't know why these threads always turn into a mutually exclusive thing. You don't have to hate Hillis just because you like Moreno, and vice-versa.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:45 AM
And we wouldn't be in the playoff hunt if it wasn't for Nolan.

If Mcd gets credit for all that is right he should also get the blame for what is wrong.....The short yardage situation has been an issue for us all season long and Mcd has failed to fix it......

Which he and everyone else acknowledges. Unfortunately, sometimes it comes down to what you have to work with. Spagnuolo is the greatest coach in the world (according to some) and he cant do much in STL...because he has nothing to work with

scott.475
12-14-2009, 11:48 AM
No arguments...but my questions on 3rd down play calling have been on the defensive side of the ball.

Every damn game (especially yesterday) has been Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Touchdown

Frustrating

No doubt. It seems like if all a team needs is 1 or 2 yards on 3rd down, we will give up 10 or more. Sadly, I think we are a bit better on 3rd this year than years past, but still fairly bad.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 11:50 AM
OK, so it is an O-line issue, not a RB issue, so because of that we will keep using the RB that has pretty consistently shown he can't carry people over the guy we have seen push 4 or 5 defenders down the field for extra yards fairly regularly? I am supposed to be happy that we won't use the RB who can actually overcome some of the deficits or our O-line? Give me a frickin' break. I will grant you the play calling on third down yesterday was stupifyingly laughable, as if the coach had no memory of recent history, but I fell pretty confident that Hillis could have pushed some of those defenders downfield for the yard we needed on a few occasions.

I am not saying Moreno is a bust, and he seems to be OK at dodging tacklers, but he is not good at breaking or carrying tacklers, that is just the truth. Oh, and he fumbled on the goal line again yesterday, right? Granted, a helmet hit the ball, but come on, how many excuses does this guy need?

I am just frustrated, not saying Hillis would end up being the #1, but the FACT is we have seen him carry multiple defenders time after time and why McD would not use him to overcome the problems of the O-line boggles the mind.

I also don't know why these threads always turn into a mutually exclusive thing. You don't have to hate Hillis just because you like Moreno, and vice-versa.

I think every human alive would trade their starting tailback for Peteresen and NO ONE fumble more than him. Just interesting to me.

I dont think it comes down to people hating Hillis so much as most of us arent going to call him a savior after two good games he had over a year ago.

McD doesnt use him alot and even the Mastermind didnt use him alot until he had to. What does that say about Hillis?

Traveler
12-14-2009, 12:22 PM
OK, so it is an O-line issue, not a RB issue, so because of that we will keep using the RB that has pretty consistently shown he can't carry people over the guy we have seen push 4 or 5 defenders down the field for extra yards fairly regularly? I am supposed to be happy that we won't use the RB who can actually overcome some of the deficits or our O-line? Give me a frickin' break. I will grant you the play calling on third down yesterday was stupifyingly laughable, as if the coach had no memory of recent history, but I fell pretty confident that Hillis could have pushed some of those defenders downfield for the yard we needed on a few occasions.

I am not saying Moreno is a bust, and he seems to be OK at dodging tacklers, but he is not good at breaking or carrying tacklers, that is just the truth. Oh, and he fumbled on the goal line again yesterday, right? Granted, a helmet hit the ball, but come on, how many excuses does this guy need?

I am just frustrated, not saying Hillis would end up being the #1, but the FACT is we have seen him carry multiple defenders time after time and why McD would not use him to overcome the problems of the O-line boggles the mind.

I also don't know why these threads always turn into a mutually exclusive thing. You don't have to hate Hillis just because you like Moreno, and vice-versa.

I hear what you are saying. I just disagree that Hillis would help in short yardage anymore than Moreno. Our failure in short yardage is a glaring weakness of the offensive line in this new scheme. I will agree that JMFMcD is being hard-headed in at least not giving Hillis a chance.

This OL was built to run the WCO, ZBS. Power football is not their strong suit. Especially the interior of the OL. They might say they are still using the ZBS, but I'd have to disagree. In games when they actually did use it, our RB's had good results running the ball.

We just don't have the horses to play power football at this time. Since JMFMcD isn't willing to change his scheme, this is someting we'll have to live with until we get the correct personnel to play smash mouth football.

The bad news is that (can't believe I'm about to say this) Dennison, and possibly Bobby Turner might not be here next season.

Ravage!!!
12-14-2009, 12:23 PM
I think every human alive would trade their starting tailback for Peteresen and NO ONE fumble more than him. Just interesting to me.

I dont think it comes down to people hating Hillis so much as most of us arent going to call him a savior after two good games he had over a year ago.

McD doesnt use him alot and even the Mastermind didnt use him alot until he had to. What does that say about Hillis?

I know I replied on this in the other thread.. but Shanahan DID use him quite a bit, especially on screens, long before Hillis was asked to be the starting RB.

It was only when he was put into the starting TB position that we saw just how stud this guy can be (and was). Just as Warner (and even Brady) and so many other players that were taken late in the draft (Davis)... you have to judge them from the performance on the field and not where they were picked in the draft.

((But I think scott is referring to Dream in his hate for Hillis simply because he likes Moreno.))

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 12:36 PM
With these commments I think it is clear as day that McDaniels does not feel Hillis is suited for this offense. Moreno is a hard runner and ran tough at Georgia. That was his knack. He was never a burner. He is a guy who consistently got it done. He is our best option, and the coach said that. I'm sure most people in the locker room believe it too. Our offensive line is the root of these short yardage problems. Not the idea that we're screwing over Peyton Hillis by not using them.

The more the coaches speak and the more games are played while Hillis sits on the sidelines, pretty much removes all doubt to the reasons why Hillis isn't getting opportunities. I wish people weren't so naive to see that.

claymore
12-14-2009, 12:40 PM
No arguments...but my questions on 3rd down play calling have been on the defensive side of the ball.

Every damn game (especially yesterday) has been Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Big Play...Stop, Stop, Touchdown

Frustrating

I guess I agree with you and me. :D I have zero faith we make a first down, and a little faith we stop on 3rd and whatever.

I know it was basically trash time after the 3rd Manning TD yesterday, but it could have been much worse.

Dirk
12-14-2009, 12:41 PM
I think Moreno is a stud and I think Hillis is a stud.

With that said, Hillis would not have gotten the short yardage needed either when the defensive line is in the backfield before the RB gets to the line of scrimmage.

The O-line is the end all to the short yardage issue.

HORSEPOWER 56
12-14-2009, 01:31 PM
I was very surprised to see Hillis get so little action after Buck left the game. I figured that Hillis would at least play FB in Larsen's spot once he went down and might see some carries or passes thrown his way.

Instead, when Bucky and Larsen went out, it seemed our game plan completely changed. No more lead blockers on running plays, more shotgun draws for no gain and almost no play action to speak of.

I don't know what Hillis did to get so far into McD's doghouse that he wasn't even considered for more than one play carrying the ball, but I doubt he'll be back next year after his lack of use this year.

Hell even in NE where they don't use a FB much, Evans and Morris got carries throughout the game, especially if Maroney was nicked up. Kevin Faulk was never ridden as hard as Knowshon was yesterday.

Biz1
12-14-2009, 02:17 PM
FB's just aren't utilized as much anymore. The last one I recall out West was Lorenzo Neil, and he was a lead blocker for LT. Once the NFL changed the rules to promote passer ratings and points scored, many offenses abandoned traditional running games in favor of TE's and 3 WR's.

Since the Denver O is struggling between the tackles, using Hillis as lead-block might be a good idea. In fact, Moreno was used in college as blocker at times so it could go both ways.

NameUsedBefore
12-14-2009, 03:01 PM
Hillis saved our bacon in that Cleveland game last year by carrying a tackler literally on his back for about four yards and consistently trudges forward... McDaniels is just being a stubborn SOB for some reason or another. Hillis will probably be cut and then go and make waves with another team.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 03:07 PM
Hillis may play for us or another team and have his moments, but let's not pretend he will make or break a team's success

Lonestar
12-14-2009, 03:20 PM
I partially agree. I feel it is a Oline issue, RB issue in regards of the personel used and play calling. We are weak across the board in short yardage situations and have been all season long.

the last time we could get tough yards in the red zone was with Mike Bell.. IIRC he had about 25 carries that year and 6 were for TD's.. a real scoring machine..

but other than that we have sucked in the red zone for a LONG time..

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 03:25 PM
I bet this wouldn't be as passionate of a subject with Broncos fans if Hillis would just be given the chance to show if he can contribute in the situations Buck and Moreno have failed in this season, short yaradge situations. Hillis has shown he is a tough SOB to bring down, I have a hard time believing he would go down as quick as Moreno and Buck do even when the line isn't playing up to par. The defenders might get to him as quick as they do with Buck and Moreno but I have a hard time believing he wouldn't drag a couple of them with him on his way forward. Hillis gives us a sluggers chance to get the tough yards that the other guys just aren't built to do.

topscribe
12-14-2009, 03:26 PM
I find it amusing that people really think Hillis will be a superstar RB and a guarantee to pick up short yardage yards.

Where did you see that?

I don't see any of those people here. :look:

-----

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 03:29 PM
Where did you see that?

I don't see any of those people here. :look:

-----

Wow...you must be skimming a little roo much, top

pnbronco
12-14-2009, 03:37 PM
Hillis did go in yesterday for Larson and was blocking.

claymore
12-14-2009, 03:43 PM
Hillis did go in yesterday for Larson and was blocking.

Hillis was 0.5602240896358543 percent of our offense yesterday.

Medford Bronco
12-14-2009, 03:48 PM
Hillis was 0.5602240896358543 percent of our offense yesterday.

You did not know that Hillis is better
than Terrell Davis and Mike Anderson combined:lol:

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 03:48 PM
I dont think anyone disagrees that it would be nice to see Hillis get the short yardage attempts...but for some reason...he hsant earned them. All we can do is trust the decision of the coaches.

Medford Bronco
12-14-2009, 03:49 PM
I dont think anyone disagrees that it would be nice to see Hillis get the short yardage attempts...but for some reason...he hsant earned them. All we can do is trust the decision of the coaches.

I would think that professional coaches know more than message board gurus.

(not calling anyone out, just a general statement)

Buff
12-14-2009, 03:52 PM
With these commments I think it is clear as day that McDaniels does not feel Hillis is suited for this offense. Moreno is a hard runner and ran tough at Georgia. That was his knack. He was never a burner. He is a guy who consistently got it done. He is our best option, and the coach said that. I'm sure most people in the locker room believe it too. Our offensive line is the root of these short yardage problems. Not the idea that we're screwing over Peyton Hillis by not using them.

The more the coaches speak and the more games are played while Hillis sits on the sidelines, pretty much removes all doubt to the reasons why Hillis isn't getting opportunities. I wish people weren't so naive to see that.

I'm somewhere on the fence on this one. I think if Hillis deserved to be getting more carries then he would have gotten them by now--so I partially agree with you.

But anyone who saw him play against the Jets or the Falcons last year knows that he is a better player than he has shown so far this year... So we're left to wonder whether or not he has fully recovered from his injury, or if McD is being stubborn, or what the hell the deal is. I think something's gotta give in short yardage--and while I don't feel our struggles are Moreno's fault--it's can't hurt to try something new... At least once or twice.

Mike
12-14-2009, 03:53 PM
I dont think anyone disagrees that it would be nice to see Hillis get the short yardage attempts...but for some reason...he hsant earned them. All we can do is trust the decision of the coaches.

That is what it boils down to. I thought that Hillis would have a little more opportunity yesterday when Buck when down. I heard (second-hand) that McD said in his presser that Hillis wasn't utilized because Larson was out and Hillis was the only FB. Don't know if that is true or not. But Moreno looked a little gassed and it seemed prudent to try to do what you got to do to keep his legs fresh.

What bothered me was calling the same play time after time in 3rd/4th and short. When your o-line is getting blown into the backfield, you need to adjust the playcalls. Play away from your weaknesses.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 03:55 PM
That is what it boils down to. I thought that Hillis would have a little more opportunity yesterday when Buck when down. I heard (second-hand) that McD said in his presser that Hillis wasn't utilized because Larson was out and Hillis was the only FB. Don't know if that is true or not. But Moreno looked a little gassed and it seemed prudent to try to do what you got to do to keep his legs fresh.

What bothered me was calling the same play time after time in 3rd/4th and short. When your o-line is getting blown into the backfield, you need to adjust the playcalls. Play away from your weaknesses.

I agree...on the other hand, a coach cant abandon plays altogether as well. Just another "damned if you do, damned if you dont" scenario

claymore
12-14-2009, 03:56 PM
I wonder what Moreno could have done in our offense last year more than I wonder what Hillis could do in our offense this year.

The line is terrible for this scheme. Moreno/buck have been phenomenal with what they have had to work with.

Poet
12-14-2009, 03:58 PM
I find it amusing that people really think Hillis will be a superstar RB and a guarantee to pick up short yardage yards.

Super star? No, but he's basically built like a fullback and has proven he can get tough yards.

Mike
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
I agree...on the other hand, a coach cant abandon plays altogether as well. Just another "damned if you do, damned if you dont" scenario

True, though I am not sure about playing to your weakness on critical downs. But, hey, it is easy for us to criticize what he does.

Bottom line, I don't care who runs the ball, I just hope they get the short yardage situation figured out.

pnbronco
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Hillis was 0.5602240896358543 percent of our offense yesterday.

What I was trying to say is that when Larson went down Hillis had to take that position of blocking. If he's blocking then he can't run the ball since there are only 2 backs that block and one is injuried.

claymore
12-14-2009, 04:02 PM
What I was trying to say is that when Larson went down Hillis had to take that position of blocking. If he's blocking then he can't run the ball since there are only 2 backs that block and one is injuried.

Lets not let this come between us. Im sorry. Jrwiz really got to me today though.

Medford Bronco
12-14-2009, 04:03 PM
What I was trying to say is that when Larson went down Hillis had to take that position of blocking. If he's blocking then he can't run the ball since there are only 2 backs that block and one is injuried.

Hello Pn. I dont think clay was trying to slam you.

I think some here overreact to Hillis.

yes he should get some more carries at times, esp yesterday

but he is by no means a better option than either one of the rbs that are playing full time IMHO.

Moreno is having a good rookie year and buck probably exceeded some expections.

we shall see.

ready for some :flame: :lol:

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 04:04 PM
I think Moreno would have done fantastic behind last years group of guys in the ZBS we're truly accustomed too. I wish they'd pitch it off or let him go wide a lot more. He can get to the corner and turn quite quickly. Draws, delays and all that shit from the Shotgun don't help at all when our interior blows.

silkamilkamonico
12-14-2009, 04:04 PM
It's not enough to just read this, watch Mcd's press conference after the game. He will never admit it's a scheme or personel issue. This has been going on ALL SEASON LONG. He is the head coach, it's his responsibility to fix this and he hasn't. Mcd is a stubborn full for not trying Hillis more in these situations and his stubborness will cost us opportunities to compete in games just like yesterday. I lost all respect and lost support for Mcd as a result of this.

That's a little brash I think. Every year it's coaches responsabilities around the NFl to fix situations that hurt the team, and every year 31 of them fail.

I honestly think you're being a little unrealistic about what's being expected, especially considering Denver is coming off a 10 year stint of a coach that didn't know how fix....anything.

TXBRONC
12-14-2009, 04:08 PM
What I was trying to say is that when Larson went down Hillis had to take that position of blocking. If he's blocking then he can't run the ball since there are only 2 backs that block and one is injuried.

How badly is Larsen injured? I haven't been able to keep up with things like usually do.

claymore
12-14-2009, 04:09 PM
How badly is Larsen injured? I haven't been able to keep up with things like usually do.

He has a broken backbone, and he's still listed ahead of Hillis on the depth chart.

:flame:

Superchop 7
12-14-2009, 04:10 PM
I've said it before, I will say it again








F=MA

Poet
12-14-2009, 04:12 PM
I understand the sentiment of "Look what McDaniel's has done, he knows more," but at the same point in time it doesn't make him infallible.

The entire "I can't believe people think Hillis is a beast" thing doesn't fly either, I guess I've just missed all the Jim Brown comparisons that are apparently happening.

Is Hillis better suited to short down rushing attempts than your other backs? Well Hillis already has proven he can do it, Moreno hasn't, Buckhalter is a servicable player who is having a career year. What's that tell you?

To me it DOESN'T tell me that Hillis needs to take many carries from your guys, but he's obviously better at the short yard situations than your other guys.

claymore
12-14-2009, 04:14 PM
I understand the sentiment of "Look what McDaniel's has done, he knows more," but at the same point in time it doesn't make him infallible.

The entire "I can't believe people think Hillis is a beast" thing doesn't fly either, I guess I've just missed all the Jim Brown comparisons that are apparently happening.

Is Hillis better suited to short down rushing attempts than your other backs? Well Hillis already has proven he can do it, Moreno hasn't, Buckhalter is a servicable player who is having a career year. What's that tell you?

To me it DOESN'T tell me that Hillis needs to take many carries from your guys, but he's obviously better at the short yard situations than your other guys.
Not in this offense.

Poet
12-14-2009, 04:15 PM
Not in this offense.

Uhh...


No.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 04:18 PM
I understand the sentiment of "Look what McDaniel's has done, he knows more," but at the same point in time it doesn't make him infallible.

The entire "I can't believe people think Hillis is a beast" thing doesn't fly either, I guess I've just missed all the Jim Brown comparisons that are apparently happening.

Is Hillis better suited to short down rushing attempts than your other backs? Well Hillis already has proven he can do it, Moreno hasn't, Buckhalter is a servicable player who is having a career year. What's that tell you?

To me it DOESN'T tell me that Hillis needs to take many carries from your guys, but he's obviously better at the short yard situations than your other guys.

I dont think anyone is claiming McD to be perfect or Hillis to be horrible. It's just a matter of assuming McD knows what is better for the team and having a reason for not using a big back in short yardage scenarios.

Bottom line...it's all speculation and NO ONE knows

claymore
12-14-2009, 04:19 PM
Uhh...


No.

People keep saying he needs 5 carries or a few a game or whatever. But in order to do that, you are taking them away from proven players.

I dont think Hillis needs anycarries unless injuries occur. He was a servicable backup last year when we lost 6 backs before him

It was a ZBS offense that was ver effective. His stats and abilities are inflated. Tatum bell did better in that scheme by far, and he works at the mall this year.

If Hillis cant make the field it is because he isnt better than the players at the position he is playing.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 04:21 PM
Peyton Hillis would play more if he earned a role. He has earned the role as bench warmer and Christmas Card picker-upper guy for the team at the local offices. He is enjoying his time.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 04:22 PM
People keep saying he needs 5 carries or a few a game or whatever. But in order to do that, you are taking them away from proven players.

I dont think Hillis needs anycarries unless injuries occur. He was a servicable backup last year when we lost 6 backs before him

It was a ZBS offense that was ver effective. His stats and abilities are inflated. Tatum bell did better in that scheme by far, and he works at the mall this year.

If Hillis cant make the field it is because he isnt better than the players at the position he is playing.

Did you just talk to God or something? Where did this come from?

claymore
12-14-2009, 04:23 PM
Did you just talk to God or something? Where did this come from?

Did I do something bad?

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 04:32 PM
Did I do something bad?

No...but it sounds like you are defending McD's decision with Hillis

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 04:34 PM
I dont think anyone disagrees that it would be nice to see Hillis get the short yardage attempts...but for some reason...he hsant earned them. All we can do is trust the decision of the coaches.

It would be a lot easier to trust the decisions of the coaches if we were suceeding in short yardage situations but we are not and haven't been all season long.

Moreno and Buck have auditioned behind that line in short yardage situations and as a team it hasn't worked.

The common reason in these threads is that the line failed and Hillis would be stopped too. I have a problem with that because it's a guess. We don't know how Hillis would do in those situations because he hasn't been given a chance recently. All we do know about Hillis is what we have seen. He is a big, bruiser type that is hard to bring down.

The failures of what we have tried to date should merit a chance for Hillis, at least I would hope it would.

MCd seemed pissed when he was asked about Hillis, as if he was offended somebody was questioning his personel decisions. I think that is playing into him not playing Hillis now BUT all I can do is guess like the rest of us. From where I'm sitting it just doesn't make any sense.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 04:36 PM
It would be a lot easier to trust the decisions of the coaches if we were suceeding in short yardage situations but we are not and haven't been all season long.

Moreno and Buck have auditioned behind that line in short yardage situations and as a team it hasn't worked.

The common reason in these threads is that the line failed and Hillis would be stopped too. I have a problem with that because it's a guess. We don't know how Hillis would do in those situations because he hasn't been given a chance recently. All we do know about Hillis is what we have seen. He is a big, bruiser type that is hard to bring down.

The failures of what we have tried to date should merit a chance for Hillis, at least I would hope it would.

MCd seemed pissed when he was asked about Hillis, as if he was offended somebody was questioning his personel decisions. I think that is playing into him not playing Hillis now BUT all I can do is guess like the rest of us. From where I'm sitting it just doesn't make any sense.

No argument there...but I just dont see ANY NFL coach having an answer sitting right in front of him and simply "choosing" not to use them without any reason. I dont know what it is or why, but for some reason, McD just wont use Hillis. I'd like to see it as much as anyone, but I'm going to give the coach the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 04:43 PM
You have a problem with it because it is a guess? Yet you assume that Hillis would have been done better because he is bigger? LOL. Give me a break.

CoachChaz
12-14-2009, 04:53 PM
You have a problem with it because it is a guess? Yet you assume that Hillis would have been done better because he is bigger? LOL. Give me a break.

That and the fact that 14 months ago, he ran over the vaunted Cleveland defense.

What more proof does one need to see that Hillis should get the ball

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 05:07 PM
If the coaches don't feel he is doing what is necessary to even have a role on special teams, I don't think he can handle a role on offense. Sorry. I'll trust McDaniels.

SOCALORADO.
12-14-2009, 05:11 PM
If the coaches don't feel he is doing what is necessary to even have a role on special teams, I don't think he can handle a role on offense. Sorry. I'll trust McDaniels.


Just off the top of my head, didnt Hillis have some kind of beef with his ARK coach? I believe the coach who moved on to Ole Miss. I cant remember exactly. Wasnt there some kind of personal isssue between the two?
Does anyone remember that?

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 05:13 PM
Coach McDaniels on this issue.

"You can't put him at halfback, when Larsen is hurt at fullback and you need him to play fullback since there are only two on the roster."

"Peyton is not in the doghouse."

"We've been successful with Moreno and Buck and we're going to keep going with that."

"He is not an option on third and short when he is the only fullback."

"I'm not worried about our backs, they have converted this year, when you don't stop the penetration that killed us yesterday in everyone of those situations you could give the ball to Frank O'Harris and he wouldn't even get a yard."

-- My transcription from the interview today.

There it is boys. I didn't put what the questions were, but they were about Hillis and why he wasn't used, and his satisfaction, etc. He also was asked if he agreed bigger backs are better (conventional wisdom) for short yardage, and he said all of our backs are 215 or higher, so it didn't make a difference to him. Obviously he is comfortable with Moreno and Buck, and is not happy with our line play.

As I've been saying.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-14-2009, 05:17 PM
Just off the top of my head, didnt Hillis have some kind of beef with his ARK coach? I believe the coach who moved on to Ole Miss. I cant remember exactly. Wasnt there some kind of personal isssue between the two?
Does anyone remember that?

Hillis was pissed off at Nutt back in 2005 when McFadden and Jones came in and took away his playing time. Nutt knew that his pro position was going to be an H-Back role, so did what he could to accommodate and help his team win and moved Hillis to FB. Hillis was pissed off to the point where he said he'd rather play linebacker. Fortunate for us, McDaniels said he has done everything he has been asked to do so it is unlikely he'll blow up here any time soon. Not that it matters.

NameUsedBefore
12-14-2009, 06:22 PM
I bet this wouldn't be as passionate of a subject with Broncos fans if Hillis would just be given the chance to show if he can contribute in the situations Buck and Moreno have failed in this season, short yaradge situations. Hillis has shown he is a tough SOB to bring down, I have a hard time believing he would go down as quick as Moreno and Buck do even when the line isn't playing up to par. The defenders might get to him as quick as they do with Buck and Moreno but I have a hard time believing he wouldn't drag a couple of them with him on his way forward. Hillis gives us a sluggers chance to get the tough yards that the other guys just aren't built to do.

This. Big time.

It's not just that Hillis isn't getting a chance, it's that he's not getting a chance while the guys we keep going back to fail over and over and over in these situations.

Is he gonna stay at fullback? Fine. Do what Shanahan did with Mike Anderson, run a Strong-I and hand it off from there.

nevcraw
12-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Coach McDaniels on this issue.

"You can't put him at halfback, when Larsen is hurt at fullback and you need him to play fullback since there are only two on the roster."

"Peyton is not in the doghouse."

"We've been successful with Moreno and Buck and we're going to keep going with that."

"He is not an option on third and short when he is the only fullback."

"I'm not worried about our backs, they have converted this year, when you don't stop the penetration that killed us yesterday in everyone of those situations you could give the ball to Frank O'Harris and he wouldn't even get a yard."

-- My transcription from the interview today.

There it is boys. I didn't put what the questions were, but they were about Hillis and why he wasn't used, and his satisfaction, etc. He also was asked if he agreed bigger backs are better (conventional wisdom) for short yardage, and he said all of our backs are 215 or higher, so it didn't make a difference to him. Obviously he is comfortable with Moreno and Buck, and is not happy with our line play.

As I've been saying.

well i for one don't agree with the coach.. I do not know more than Him but i certainly do not think he or anyone else is infallable.
They barely use the fullback anyway so why the sudden need to have one on the bench on reserve.. They have only one champ Bailey but feel just fine with letting him play on the KO team during a blowout in KC.
The idea of using a FB for short yardage is hardly revolutionary either from his forward postion or at a single back spot.
what a silly explantion.
He must not hink much of his ability to run and for that I wonder why..

Denver Native (Carol)
12-14-2009, 07:28 PM
I wouldn't take it that far BroncofaninFLA.

But, Wow! JMFMcD not even considering using Hillis in short yardage. WTF?

Wonder what his isssue (if there is one) is with Hillis?

After reading this, my educated guess is that Hillis and Jordan won't be with the team next season.

Just a few minutes ago, Ch 4 ran the part of Coach McD's talk with the press today, and he said that with Larsen hurt, Hillis was the FB? Hope that makes sense. You can listen to today's talk with the press on the following (under video/audio http://www.denverbroncos.com/

In an answer to someone's question - Coach McD said - "No, Hillis is NOT in the dog house".

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 07:34 PM
You have a problem with it because it is a guess? Yet you assume that Hillis would have been done better because he is bigger? LOL. Give me a break.

We've already seen what your beloved Moreno can do, it's a fail at this point. I'm ready to give somebody else a shot in those situations. I would prefer Hillis but I'm game for Jordan giving it a go as well. I would rather have a guy who is a tough guy to bring down that a guy who quite frankly goes down on too many arm tackles and fumbles.

broncofaninfla
12-14-2009, 07:46 PM
Just a few minutes ago, Ch 4 ran the part of Coach McD's talk with the press today, and he said that with Larsen hurt, Hillis was the FB? Hope that makes sense. You can listen to today's talk with the press on the following (under video/audio http://www.denverbroncos.com/

In an answer to someone's question - Coach McD said - "No, Hillis is NOT in the dog house".

Regardless of where you stand on the Hillis issue and short yardage issues this is a good press conference to watch. The media grills Mcd on the poor short yardage game and Hillis not getting playing time.

Dean
12-14-2009, 07:48 PM
Last year, the board went crazy over the Broncos offense's inability to pick up third downs and to score in the red zone. Here is where we were then and where we are now. During the off season the defense was fixed and now the offense is weak.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Repeating what has not been successful might not be the best approach. I realize as a coach you feel that you can coach them up but at some point you have to look elsewhere- either in personnel or scheme.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-14-2009, 07:55 PM
The Oline is not designed for bulldozing and hasn't been for a very long time. We need to draft Iutupi from Idaho in round 2 to play LG alongside Clady. Then get a BIG Free Agent Center.

Moreno does dance too much, but our line doesn't push the pile either.

claymore
12-14-2009, 08:29 PM
The Oline is not designed for bulldozing and hasn't been for a very long time. We need to draft Iutupi from Idaho in round 2 to play LG alongside Clady. Then get a BIG Free Agent Center.

Moreno does dance too much, but our line doesn't push the pile either.

Moreno might dance but Orton doesnt Rock and Roll. :D

LoyalSoldier
12-14-2009, 09:07 PM
Strange I said this, oh, back in week 3. Of course I got flamed for it.

Ravage!!!
12-14-2009, 09:39 PM
Last year, the board went crazy over the Broncos offense's inability to pick up third downs and to score in the red zone. Here is where we were then and where we are now. During the off season the defense was fixed and now the offense is weak.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct

Repeating what has not been successful might not be the best approach. I realize as a coach you feel that you can coach them up but at some point you have to look elsewhere- either in personnel or scheme.

Well.. at least we are consistent. We are both bad when away and at home. :tsk:

Requiem / The Dagda
12-15-2009, 12:36 AM
Good thing there are some quality guards in the draft, hope the Idaho Boy is athletic enough for us. From what I've seen, he sure seems to be able to be that way.

SOCALORADO.
12-15-2009, 08:50 AM
The Oline is not designed for bulldozing and hasn't been for a very long time. We need to draft Iutupi from Idaho in round 2 to play LG alongside Clady. Then get a BIG Free Agent Center.

Moreno does dance too much, but our line doesn't push the pile either.

Mike Iupati will be long gone by the end of the 1st round. PIT will take this kid no questions asked. Poor ben is getting beat down every game now. That offensive line is so poor and the players on it considered good are waaay overrated. This has been PITs achilles heel for the last couple seasons now.

I say grab Logan Mankins in FA to shore up the line and then get a Center in the draft.
Kristofer O'Dowd, USC
Stefen Wisniewski, Penn State
Matt Tennant, Boston College
Eric Olsen, Notre Dame

broncofaninfla
12-15-2009, 11:14 AM
Good thing there are some quality guards in the draft, hope the Idaho Boy is athletic enough for us. From what I've seen, he sure seems to be able to be that way.

We are in the playoff hunt THIS YEAR. Mcd has had all season long to fix our short yardage issues and he hasn't. Moreno has auditioned and failed in this role. Time for somebody new weather it be Jordan, Hillis or some guy off the street. Granted the line has to perform BUT we need a back who doesn't go down the fisrt time he is touched.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Moreno doesn't go down the first time he is touched. Stop exaggerating.

Mike
12-15-2009, 11:31 AM
Moreno doesn't go down the first time he is touched. Stop exaggerating.

He does seem to trip over the white line every now and again. He does run hard, but it seems that maybe how hard he attempts to run throws his balance out of whack a bit.

SOCALORADO.
12-15-2009, 11:49 AM
He does seem to trip over the white line every now and again. He does run hard, but it seems that maybe how hard he attempts to run throws his balance out of whack a bit.

I think it has to do with him learning to be patient and wait for the holes to open in front of him. Hes so anxious, hes learning too.

scott.475
12-15-2009, 12:44 PM
"I'm not worried about our backs, they have converted this year, when you don't stop the penetration that killed us yesterday in everyone of those situations you could give the ball to Frank O'Harris and he wouldn't even get a yard."

-- My transcription from the interview today.


Who is Frank O'Harris? I don't remember any Irish running back having a lot of success in the league! :D:laugh:

broncofaninfla
12-15-2009, 01:36 PM
Moreno doesn't go down the first time he is touched. Stop exaggerating.

Calling it like I see it, the kid has been brought down by way too many arm tackles and not just in short yardage situations.

Req, Moreno is the better starting back BUT he isn't getting it done in short yardage situations. Hillis may fail too but lets give him a chance before saying he can't do it.

broncofaninfla
12-15-2009, 01:38 PM
I think it has to do with him learning to be patient and wait for the holes to open in front of him. Hes so anxious, hes learning too.


He is getting more carries than any of our other backs, he is getting his chance to learn.

Spiritguy
12-16-2009, 03:14 PM
This whole thing about 3rd/4th and short has been a question that has bothered me most of this season. It drove me to distraction several times when we went up the gut over and over with little to show for it. Have also questioned why Hillis has not gotten opportunities to do something in that situation.

I came across this post at MHR talking about this very thing and the info was quite interesting. I ended up having a better understanding of why MCD was making the play calls he was. What I don't understand about the calls is why he tries to "force" the man on man blocking when the guys we have really aren't right for it. On occasion I can understand it would take the defense off guard so to speak. but to use it like they did in the Colts game just makes me shake my head. They were getting blow off the line over and over again.

The article is a good read and there is a post in the comments section (highlighted in green) that is good enough to stand on its own.



Why the Broncos (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/DEN) keep running between the tackles on 3rd & 4th and short, since that type of play has proven to be markedly unsuccessful. This started me wondering how often McDaniels has called a between the tackles run on 3rd or 4th and short. So, I went to nfl.com, pulled up the Game Book for each of our 13 games and looked at the play-by-play to see how often the Broncos have found themselves in 3rd/4th and short and what play was called. The results might surprise you.

For the sake of this discussion, I have defined "Short Yardage" as 1 or 2 yards to go. Many teams, the Broncos included tend to pass as often as they run in 3 or 4 yard situations.

According the stats posted on the Broncos page at nfl.com, the Broncos have had 185 3rd and 4th down conversion attempts, and have converted 66 (or 36%) of the time. Of those 185 attempts, 40 (or 22%) fall in the short yardage category as defined above. Here are some interesting stats about those 40 attempts:

1)12 (30%) of the 40 attempts were passes.
2)22 (55%) of them were runs.
3)6 (15%) had penalties called on them.
4)Denver converted 21 (53%) of the 40 attempts.
5)6 of the 12 pass attempts (50%) were converted.
6)14 of the 22 run attempts (64%) were converted.
7)1 defensive penalty gave Denver a first down.
8)5 offensive penalties forced the Broncos into 3rd or 4th and long.

Of the 12 Pass Attempts:

1)8 went short right; 3 resulted in 1st downs.
2)1 went short over the middle, and not only was converted but resulted in a TD.
3)3 went short left; 2 resulted in 1st downs.

Of the 22 Run Attempts:

1)1 went around the right end and resulted in a first down.
2)4 went to the right tackle; 3 resulted in first downs and 1 of those resulted in a TD.
3)4 went to the right guard; 3 resulted in first downs.
4)6 went up the middle; 2 resulted in first downs.
5)3 went to the left guard; 2 resulted in first downs.
6)2 went to the left tackle; both resulted in first downs.
7)2 went around the left end; 1 resulted in a first down.

So, of the 22 runs attempted on 3rd or 4th and short, 19 were between the tackles, and 12 (or 63%) resulted in first downs.

There is a lot more to the article here (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/12/13/1199492/3rd-4th-short-is-it-as-bad-as-it)

SOCALORADO.
12-16-2009, 04:19 PM
He is getting more carries than any of our other backs, he is getting his chance to learn.

I know, I know. I just think its a rookie thing. He wants so bad to impress, and he isnt patient. Hes young. But hes freaking good. i understand your point of view though in regards to Hillis. The whole things a scooby doo mystery.

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 04:37 PM
thoughts inspired by this thread:

- the subtext reads: it doesn't matter who the coach is, the fans will always side with the players. it's always the scheme's fault, never the player's fault (unless the player is a thug, then it's always his fault).

- hillis is so loved not because he contributes daily and has actually made significant plays to win games, but because he's a tough SOB who can drag players.

- the only people in today's NFL who like fullbacks are the fans who use terms like "slobberknocker" and "tough SOB."

- if hillis wasn't white, would he be so loved?

- i really want hillis to play and get chances on short yardage situations because after he fails all his fanboys can end this stupid debate.

Buff
12-16-2009, 04:49 PM
- i really want hillis to play and get chances on short yardage situations because after he fails all his fanboys can end this stupid debate.

And if he succeeds?

Requiem / The Dagda
12-16-2009, 04:51 PM
He won't and he probably won't be given an opportunity. The same people hanging on Hillis jock are the same ones who took a whiz in the ears of some of our teams best players for character concerns and a variety of other reasons. It is just baffling.

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 04:55 PM
And if he succeeds?

good for him and the team. then let the debate about playing time start. but a few pedestrian carries against a tired chiefs defense and (truly) average games against average or poor defenses (browns, falcons, etc.) last season don't convince me hillis is worthy of the praise people throw at him.

also, i wonder why this bit of logic hasn't crept into the hillis debate: if shanahan's zone blocking scheme was renowned for allowing average running backs to look great, why don't people assume hillis was simply the latest back to benefit from a great system? remember, pittman looked good last year too. this year, he played in the usfl or whatever the hell that league is called.

Buff
12-16-2009, 04:55 PM
He won't and he probably won't be given an opportunity. The same people hanging on Hillis jock are the same ones who took a whiz in the ears of some of our teams best players for character concerns and a variety of other reasons. It is just baffling.

What is baffling to me is why you and others have taken up this anti-Hillis campaign based solely on the fact that you are annoyed by the people who want Hillis to play a larger role in the offense.

Guy was a solid player for us last year. I can't blame people for wanting to see him get more reps to see if last year was a fluke or not.

rationalfan
12-16-2009, 04:56 PM
He won't and he probably won't be given an opportunity. The same people hanging on Hillis jock are the same ones who took a whiz in the ears of some of our teams best players for character concerns and a variety of other reasons. It is just baffling.

no doubt. you need to post more of your sense on this board. must be the dakota boy thing. Dakota country all the way.

claymore
12-16-2009, 04:59 PM
What is baffling to me is why you and others have taken up this anti-Hillis campaign based solely on the fact that you are annoyed by the people who want Hillis to play a larger role in the offense.

Guy was a solid player for us last year. I can't blame people for wanting to see him get more reps to see if last year was a fluke or not.

Thats me 100%. I just think its silly people want him to play when our starters are healthy. I will root for him every time he gets it though.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 05:24 PM
Thats me 100%. I just think its silly people want him to play when our starters are healthy. I will root for him every time he gets it though.

I do not know OF anyone that is stating he should be the starter..

most folks are saying that he should see action in certain areas.. when we need a change of pace, spell winded RB's, short yardage and some passes..

allow him to pound the ball a few times and then the Defense is more likely to be tired..

a few folks have been on Moreno's jock from day one and some cases since he was a dream in his daddies eyes.

splitting the load will keep starters from wearing down..

now if Bucky has the hot hand ride him till he needs to rest same form Moreno.. but it has been a rare day that that has happened.. in fact many games the run game has been in effective.. and we kept trying to get yards with the lightweights..

Ravage!!!
12-16-2009, 08:57 PM
It baffles me that after watching the NFL for so many years, people actually believe that coaches aren't human and don't hold grudges against players drafted by other coaches.. OR... actually think they don't put the ball in the hands of the players THEY have a vested investment in. Its BAFFLING to believe that people think human emotions never play a role in picking personnel and starters on an NFL squad. Truly.. astounding.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 09:04 PM
It baffles me that after watching the NFL for so many years, people actually believe that coaches aren't human and don't hold grudges against players drafted by other coaches.. OR... actually think they don't put the ball in the hands of the players THEY have a vested investment in. Its BAFFLING to believe that people think human emotions never play a role in picking personnel and starters on an NFL squad. Truly.. astounding.

so why do you suppose the Larsen who was drafted by mike is the starting FB..

Ravage!!!
12-16-2009, 09:07 PM
so why do you suppose the Larsen who was drafted by mike is the starting FB..

I can name a lot of players that are playing that were drafted by former coaches.

I'm not even saying this is THE reason or case here. I'm saying, it happens. We see it all the time in the NFL. Yet some will post, in this thread, and try to suggest that a coach will play ANYONE that is the best player on the roster no-matter-what... and thats not the case.

Lonestar
12-16-2009, 09:11 PM
I can name a lot of players that are playing that were drafted by former coaches.

I'm not even saying this is THE reason or case here. I'm saying, it happens. We see it all the time in the NFL. Yet some will post, in this thread, and try to suggest that a coach will play ANYONE that is the best player on the roster no-matter-what... and thats not the case.

on this point I tend to agree with you..

Moreno will get the starting job until he proves himself ineffectual.. as you said Josh has a vested interest to play and make "HIS" draft choices look good..

just the peter principal at work..

broncofaninfla
12-21-2009, 09:34 AM
Bump.

We still suck at short yardage. Jordan and QB sneaks didn't do the trick. Hopefully Mcstubborn will give Hillis a chance.

Dreadnought
12-21-2009, 09:44 AM
on this point I tend to agree with you..

Moreno will get the starting job until he proves himself ineffectual.. as you said Josh has a vested interest to play and make "HIS" draft choices look good..

just the peter principal at work..

Right - and now he doesn't even dare to allow Hillis a chance to show him up. Hence he has to be kept off of the field, and eventually quietly shipped out of town this off season. Handing Lamaont Jordan the reps in the Oakland game was proof enough of that.

This can of course be accompanied by a lot of the dishonest horseshit about "I put the best players on the field, no Hillis isn't in the doghouse, its all about the execution" we have come to expect. Some folks can buy that if they want, because its a free country

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 10:05 AM
Right - and now he doesn't even dare to allow Hillis a chance to show him up. Hence he has to be kept off of the field, and eventually quietly shipped out of town this off season. Handing Lamaont Jordan the reps in the Oakland game was proof enough of that.

This can of course be accompanied by a lot of the dishonest horseshit about "I put the best players on the field, no Hillis isn't in the doghouse, its all about the execution" we have come to expect. Some folks can buy that if they want, because its a free country

Funny...because when I see a run play on first and goal and the defensive line is in the backfield before the back even gets the handoff...I call that lack of execution. But maybe that's just me buying into horseshit.

G_Money
12-21-2009, 10:20 AM
After watching Hillis carry a 350 lb DT on his back to make a first down on 4th and 2 last year, I kinda wish we'd use the guy at least OCCASIONALLY during those times when our OL limitations are being shoved down our throats.

If McDaniels can't scheme around that fact that we can't move a loaf of wet bread inside the tackles then he might want to think about using a guy who can take a hit or carry a defender for something resembling positive yardage.

Or teach Orton the jump pass.

Or something. *laughs* It's getting kinda pathetic.

Still, like you say Coach, at some point it does come down to execution. Hard to draw up more elaborate plays to defeat our ineptitude inside if guys already can't manage "block that guy for 1 freakin second so the back can take the handoff."

Which is why I'd want the ball in the hands of the kid who likes to get punched in the face and can make his own hole.

At least try it once or twice, see what happens...

~G

Dreadnought
12-21-2009, 10:23 AM
Funny...because when I see a run play on first and goal and the defensive line is in the backfield before the back even gets the handoff...I call that lack of execution. But maybe that's just me buying into horseshit.

Its not either/or. The run blocking has indeed been awful, and Moreno runs with little power and almost no vision, which compounds the matter.

Well, at least he has stopped fumbling. Thats good I guess.

broncofaninfla
12-21-2009, 10:29 AM
I agree the Oline not executing does come into play BUT it's been happening ALL SEASON LONG. The coaches have failed to correct this problem and have failed to use all available resources.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 10:37 AM
After watching Hillis carry a 350 lb DT on his back to make a first down on 4th and 2 last year, I kinda wish we'd use the guy at least OCCASIONALLY during those times when our OL limitations are being shoved down our throats.

If McDaniels can't scheme around that fact that we can't move a loaf of wet bread inside the tackles then he might want to think about using a guy who can take a hit or carry a defender for something resembling positive yardage.

Or teach Orton the jump pass.

Or something. *laughs* It's getting kinda pathetic.

Still, like you say Coach, at some point it does come down to execution. Hard to draw up more elaborate plays to defeat our ineptitude inside if guys already can't manage "block that guy for 1 freakin second so the back can take the handoff."

Which is why I'd want the ball in the hands of the kid who likes to get punched in the face and can make his own hole.

At least try it once or twice, see what happens...

~G

It goes both ways. I can understand trying a guy that might be able to carry a house for 2 yards...and I can also see that it may not matter if there are 4 guys in the backfield on every run play.

Either way...the root of the problem is the pathetic play of the line.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 10:38 AM
I agree the Oline not executing does come into play BUT it's been happening ALL SEASON LONG. The coaches have failed to correct this problem and have failed to use all available resources.

I guess if I was an NFL coach, I would at some point assume that the guys on my NFL ROSTER have the capacity to block. If i have to teach them how to do that...there are bigger problems than my scheme

broncofaninfla
12-21-2009, 10:45 AM
I guess if I was an NFL coach, I would at some point assume that the guys on my NFL ROSTER have the capacity to block. If i have to teach them how to do that...there are bigger problems than my scheme

Last year our line was one of the best in the league, this year basically the same guys now suck? I don't but it at all. This is on scheme. We've had issues in the past with short yardage situations but nothing like this year.

Also on the subject of the line, Hochstiens play has been worse than Hamiltons in my opinion. Both sucked at this scheme. Sure would like to see Olsen and Hillis get a chance to help this team out at this point.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 10:48 AM
Last year our line was one of the best in the league, this year basically the same guys now suck? I don't but it at all. This is on scheme. We've had issues in the past with short yardage situations but nothing like this year.

Also on the subject of the line, Hochstiens play has been worse than Hamiltons in my opinion. Both sucked at this scheme. Sure would like to see Olsen and Hillis get a chance to help this team out at this point.

They go from a complex ZBS to a simpler straight block scheme. Sorry, but if the OL cannot block straight up it comes down to one fo two things. Either they are too small for the scheme or dont belong in the NFL.

Just comes down to Josh continuing to find the players he needs for this offense. Hamilton, Hochstein and Wiegmann are those players.

claymore
12-21-2009, 11:02 AM
They go from a complex ZBS to a simpler straight block scheme. Sorry, but if the OL cannot block straight up it comes down to one fo two things. Either they are too small for the scheme or dont belong in the NFL.

Just comes down to Josh continuing to find the players he needs for this offense. Hamilton, Hochstein and Wiegmann are those players.

They were all drafted as ZBS lineman. Thats what they are good at. They are starters in a ZBS and terrible depth in a spread offense type of system.

We disagree on this, but I dont understand how JMCD cant pull off a mix of the 2. Why cant he wait to fully impliment his offense when he gets the players that can execute it.

TThere has to be a plan, but this is ridiculous.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 11:17 AM
They were all drafted as ZBS lineman. Thats what they are good at. They are starters in a ZBS and terrible depth in a spread offense type of system.

We disagree on this, but I dont understand how JMCD cant pull off a mix of the 2. Why cant he wait to fully impliment his offense when he gets the players that can execute it.

TThere has to be a plan, but this is ridiculous.

Like I've said before. I dont care if you are use to blocking in a ZBS...if you are in the NFL...at some point in your life you learned how to block straight ahead. Don't tell me Wiegmann is use to ZBS after all his years in KC...and the rest of the guys are young and came from NON-ZBS offensive schemes in college. In fact...most people were pissed about drafting Clady and Harris for this reason.

topscribe
12-21-2009, 11:22 AM
Funny...because when I see a run play on first and goal and the defensive line is in the backfield before the back even gets the handoff...I call that lack of execution. But maybe that's just me buying into horseshit.

Sometimes the defenders have been in there so fast I have wondered if one of them was going to take the handoff . . .

-----

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 11:38 AM
Sometimes the defenders have been in there so fast I have wondered if one of them was going to take the handoff . . .

-----

That's McDaniels fault for not teaching NFL linemen how to block.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 11:41 AM
That's McDaniels fault for not teaching NFL linemen how to block.

or hiring the right assistants to do it

SOCALORADO.
12-21-2009, 11:41 AM
Like I've said before. I dont care if you are use to blocking in a ZBS...if you are in the NFL...at some point in your life you learned how to block straight ahead. Don't tell me Wiegmann is use to ZBS after all his years in KC...and the rest of the guys are young and came from NON-ZBS offensive schemes in college. In fact...most people were pissed about drafting Clady and Harris for this reason.

And now Clady and Harris (when healthy) are clearly the best max protect players on the line. I think ive have thrown this out here on this board, but i say draft one of the Centers in this years draft, O'Dowd, Tennant or Olsen, and sign FA Olineman Logan Mankins. So DEN spends a little more for a solid O-lineman who can protect the QB, and road grade. So what. I dont think DEN needs to be really active in FA anyways. Instead resign Marshall, Doom and Kuper.

Buff
12-21-2009, 11:53 AM
I'm a big McDaniels fan. I love that he shipped Jay out of here. I love his enthusiasm.

But seeing Lamont Jordan ahead of Hillis yesterday really pissed me off. There isn't a single Bronco fan in the world who thinks Jordan deserves to be ahead of Hillis on the depth chart. Not one. I know the coaches are better informed than us, but 8 million fans can't be wrong.

It is clearly a politics or ego thing, not a performance issue--and that pisses me off. I'm not going to even get into the half-assed game plan.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm a big McDaniels fan. I love that he shipped Jay out of here. I love his enthusiasm.

But seeing Lamont Jordan ahead of Hillis yesterday really pissed me off. There isn't a single Bronco fan in the world who thinks Jordan deserves to be ahead of Hillis on the depth chart. Not one. I know the coaches are better informed than us, but 8 million fans can't be wrong.

It is clearly a politics or ego thing, not a performance issue--and that pisses me off. I'm not going to even get into the half-assed game plan.

Whatever the reason is...we clearly dont know the details and all we can do is assume. Yes...it's curious that he chooses to ignore Hillis exists. But there has to be a reason for it somewhere

Buff
12-21-2009, 12:19 PM
Whatever the reason is...we clearly dont know the details and all we can do is assume. Yes...it's curious that he chooses to ignore Hillis exists. But there has to be a reason for it somewhere

Tony Scheffler sounded pretty baffled when they asked him in an interview this week. He said Hillis is healthy and working hard.

Four weeks ago I was saying we need to take a wait and see approach. At this point, I don't care how bad Hillis' performances have been in practice or in game action up until this point. Our short yardage package is the laughing stock of the NFL and Hillis was a beast for us last year. Time to try something new... And that doesn't mean using an overweight Jordan who was too slow to run effective pass patterns yesterday.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 12:43 PM
I heard that we will use hillis... hillis will get more use THIS game. He "loves" hillis. McD is lying through his teeth. There is a rift. THere is SOMETHING he doesn't like about hillis, and its NOT his play. NO WAY is it his play. Honestly, Hillis has the athletic ability to be a BIG time FB/H-back in this league. We saw it last year. No way he just loses that ability over the off-season. This is just PURE stubboness on McD's part.... and it may be because the media keeps asking about him "why," and he doesn't want to "Give in" and use him.

I don 't know. I hear that the coach in Minnesota is a bit upset that Favre is getting all the attention this season instead of him. The NFL is FULL of BIG-TIME ego's... and the HC position is no different. I don't think there is anyone that will deny that McDaniels has a BIG-TIME ego.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Tony Scheffler sounded pretty baffled when they asked him in an interview this week. He said Hillis is healthy and working hard.

Four weeks ago I was saying we need to take a wait and see approach. At this point, I don't care how bad Hillis' performances have been in practice or in game action up until this point. Our short yardage package is the laughing stock of the NFL and Hillis was a beast for us last year. Time to try something new... And that doesn't mean using an overweight Jordan who was too slow to run effective pass patterns yesterday.

Most of the team...including Scheffler...was baffled when Cutler was traded as well. Obviously, we've seen the advantage in that decision.

I'm not defending or blasting McD for the decision...just saying that there has to be a reason for it. What the truth is in that reason, none if us know

Buff
12-21-2009, 12:49 PM
Most of the team...including Scheffler...was baffled when Cutler was traded as well. Obviously, we've seen the advantage in that decision.

I'm not defending or blasting McD for the decision...just saying that there has to be a reason for it. What the truth is in that reason, none if us know

I agree there is obviously something that is keeping him from playing Hillis... That much is obvious.

But I'm saying that I don't really care what the reason is anymore... If he is good enough to be on the 53 man roster, then his ass needs to get the ball more than once every 10 weeks in mop up duty. We tried McD's way for 14 weeks--we've used his short yardage personnel and his packages--and they aren't getting the job done. Maybe Hillis won't be able to get the job done either, but why not try damnit?

I just felt like I was being slapped in the face when Jordan was in the game yesterday. I don't claim to be a better talent scout than our coaching staff... But something ain't right.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 12:51 PM
I agree there is obviously something that is keeping him from playing Hillis... That much is obvious.

But I'm saying that I don't really care what the reason is anymore... If he is good enough to be on the 53 man roster, then his ass needs to get the ball more than once every 10 weeks in mop up duty. We tried McD's way for 14 weeks--we've used his short yardage personnel and his packages--and they aren't getting the job done. Maybe Hillis won't be able to get the job done either, but why not try damnit?

I just felt like I was being slapped in the face when Jordan was in the game yesterday. I don't claim to be a better talent scout than our coaching staff... But something ain't right.

I think the thing I fear the most in this debate is suppose we use Hillis and he does indeed make the OL look better and we make the playoffs. What happenes when we face a team that can shut Hillis down? Then we get embarrassed and exposed on a greater scale. I'm not saying to keep Hillis on the bench in order to save face. I'm just saying that the problem lies in front of the running back and the true problem needs to be fixed

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 12:52 PM
I agree there is obviously something that is keeping him from playing Hillis... That much is obvious.

But I'm saying that I don't really care what the reason is anymore... If he is good enough to be on the 53 man roster, then his ass needs to get the ball more than once every 10 weeks in mop up duty. We tried McD's way for 14 weeks--we've used his short yardage personnel and his packages--and they aren't getting the job done. Maybe Hillis won't be able to get the job done either, but why not try damnit?

I just felt like I was being slapped in the face when Jordan was in the game yesterday. I don't claim to be a better talent scout than our coaching staff... But something ain't right.

At the same time, BUff... there isn't reason YET to believe that your player scout abilities isn't better.

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 12:56 PM
I watched the RB for Dallas carry a load of players into the endzone against the Saints on the goalline. He was buried in the backfield, and you just saw the pile MOVE forward. The first thing I said was "BINGO... thats why we need Hillis on these situations." Sometimes the OL needs that back to punish so that LBs aren't filling so fast. They aren't standing straight, and if they are, BAM..... y ou take a different approach of tackling Hillis than you do a Moreno on the goalline... we can run up the middle with a TE as FB, and just frigging SHOVE.

Oh well.. its the same debate again, and I don't see it changing. I honestly think McD is using the "my way" only mentality, and doesn't like the press choosing his personnel, and I beieve he sees it that way if he plays Hillis..... now

Buff
12-21-2009, 12:57 PM
I think the thing I fear the most in this debate is suppose we use Hillis and he does indeed make the OL look better and we make the playoffs. What happenes when we face a team that can shut Hillis down? Then we get embarrassed and exposed on a greater scale. I'm not saying to keep Hillis on the bench in order to save face. I'm just saying that the problem lies in front of the running back and the true problem needs to be fixed

Yeah, but they've tried for 8 weeks to fix the problem. It's obviously a personnel issue on the interior of the line. Short of signing some guys off the street there isn't much that can be done to address the true problem until after the season... So in the meantime, let's try to use all of the options we have available to us instead of bashing our heads against the wall doing the same thing that hasn't been working.

CoachChaz
12-21-2009, 01:00 PM
Yeah, but they've tried for 8 weeks to fix the problem. It's obviously a personnel issue on the interior of the line. Short of signing some guys off the street there isn't much that can be done to address the true problem until after the season... So in the meantime, let's try to use all of the options we have available to us instead of bashing our heads against the wall doing the same thing that hasn't been working.

I agree...and I'm going to assume McD isnt dumb enough not to think of that. Again...there is obviously a reason Hillis doesnt get used. I have NO clue what that reason is and I'd really love to know, but until then...we are left confused

weazel
12-21-2009, 02:31 PM
we should have used Sammy Winder

Lonestar
12-21-2009, 03:33 PM
I agree...and I'm going to assume McD isnt dumb enough not to think of that. Again...there is obviously a reason Hillis doesnt get used. I have NO clue what that reason is and I'd really love to know, but until then...we are left confused

hey he is one of my kids .. but maybe jsut maybe he is dumber than a post and does not understand the playbook.

that is the only reason I can think of.. maybe he hit on Joshes wife.. God only knows..

Ravage!!!
12-21-2009, 03:41 PM
Take ball, run straight ahead and get 2 yrds. Even Clay can understand that. McDaniel's system is NOT any more complicated than the rest of the NFL, and it certainly isn't more difficult than Shanahan's....yet Hillis was a big contributor then. That can't be the reason.

claymore
12-21-2009, 03:41 PM
hey he is one of my kids .. but maybe jsut maybe he is dumber than a post and does not understand the playbook.

that is the only reason I can think of.. maybe he hit on Joshes wife.. God only knows..

Well If the McDaniels family is blessed with a real dumb kid that cant block then we know what happened.

weazel
12-21-2009, 05:02 PM
hey he is one of my kids .. but maybe jsut maybe he is dumber than a post and does not understand the playbook.

that is the only reason I can think of.. maybe he hit on Joshes wife.. God only knows..

it's Marshall's job to hit women! ...oh sorry, you meant "hit"...