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WARHORSE
02-04-2008, 10:05 PM
I think for most NFL teams, maybe they would want Harris to be bigger. For Denver, Matt Lepsis was 6'4" 290 Lbs. Denver has Harris listed today at 6'5" 300 Lbs.

Ryan Harris
OT (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/position?id=46) | (6'4http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nfl/trans/1_2.gif", 305, 5.09) | NOTRE DAME (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/school?id=2339)

Scouts Grade: 73

Flags: (B: BULK/SIZE) Lacks size/bulk for position
Strengths: An experienced, battle-tested offensive lineman. Has developed into an extremely efficient offensive tackle at the highest collegiate level. Shows very good initial quickness and does a fine job with his first step and blocking angles. Technically sound lineman with good footwork and hand-placement. Rarely is out of position and does a good job of using leverage and angles to complete assignments as a run blocker. Possesses adequate upper body power. Does a good job of cutting defenders when asked to and he also does a fine job of hitting the moving target in space. He is asked to pull more often than most OT's, and he shows very good quickness and mobility in that regard. He has long arms and big hands. Shows a quick set in pass pro. Is agile enough to mirror-and-slide with more athletic pass rushers. Rarely gets beat around the corner by pure speed.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal size and dipped down under 280 pounds during his senior season. Possesses adequate but not good height for a left tackle prospect, and he must increase his bulk and prove he can maintain it moving forward. He lacks a wide base and does not show the consistent ability to anchor versus more powerful bull rushers. He doesn't play with a mean streak and he seems to be too much of a "finesse" blocker. He comes up short in terms of his ability to uproot defenders and drive them off the line of scrimmage as a run blocker. He also will leave his feet occasionally when he doesn't need to.

Overall: Harris received eight starts at right tackle during his true freshman season in 2003 and also saw extensive action on special teams. In 2004, he started at left tackle for all 12 of Notre Dame's contests but still contributed on special teams. Harris once again started every game (12) for the Fighting Irish in 2005 at left tackle giving him 31 consecutive starts leading up to his senior season in 2006. He started all 13 games at left tackle in 2006, giving him 44 consecutive starts to end his career. Harris has great experience at the highest level as a three and a half year starter. He also is a fine athlete for the position. However, Harris lacks ideal size and strength. Even more concerning to us is that he seems to lack a certain degree of toughness that it takes to succeed as a starting offensive tackle in the NFL. As such, we think Harris is a bit of an overrated prospect and would not recommend selecting him before the third round.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If its a matter of meaness, then we can tie a goad to his nads in each pregame ritual. Just give him a couple of charges between each series or so, and let the man take it out on our opposition. Outside of that, I hope the man has been working on his overall strength, especially his core.

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 10:07 PM
http://www.ktvb.com/xtra/moresports/stories/M_IMAGE.10a642fdd3f.93.88.fa.d0.7419951d.jpg

Slick
02-04-2008, 10:10 PM
http://www.ktvb.com/xtra/moresports/stories/M_IMAGE.10a642fdd3f.93.88.fa.d0.7419951d.jpg

Quoted for emphasis. Relying on Harris and Pears scares the crap out of me.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 10:11 PM
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/MartinG_19/Notre%20Dame%20Fighting%20Irish/RyanHarris.jpg

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 10:22 PM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/VWBug_girl/fat.jpg

Meet our new DT

Skinny
02-04-2008, 10:27 PM
Harris's size or talent/ability does'nt worry me ... it's his experiance. The 'lack of starting LT in the NFL protecting your Franchise QB' kinda experiance that scares the crap out of me.

If a OT is'nt ready to start right away at LT, it's usely in the best interest of the team to start him off a RT and groom them. I would feel much better about Harris a RT at the start of the 08' season than at LT.

If Mikey or Dennison, whoever makes the call there, decides to go with who we have on the roster, i'd feel alot better about Kuper at LT considering how much more game experiance he has than Harris. And he does'nt give up anything in the size department either at 6'4 302.

And i also hope at some point Harris so freakin proves me wrong i cry myself to sleep at night ... :elefant:

BroncoWave
02-04-2008, 10:27 PM
http://www.ktvb.com/xtra/moresports/stories/M_IMAGE.10a642fdd3f.93.88.fa.d0.7419951d.jpg

Yes please! :elefant:

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 10:33 PM
Harris's size or talent/ability does'nt worry me ... it's his experiance. The 'lack of starting LT in the NFL protecting your Franchise QB' kinda experiance that scares the crap out of me.

If a OT is'nt ready to start right away at LT, it's usely in the best interest of the team to start him off a RT and groom them. I would feel much better about Harris a RT at the start of the 08' season than at LT.

If Mikey or Dennison, whoever makes the call there, decides to go with who we have on the roster, i'd feel alot better about Kuper at LT considering how much more game experiance he has than Harris. And he does'nt give up anything in the size department either at 6'4 302.

And i also hope at some point Harris so freakin proves me wrong i cry myself to sleep at night ... :elefant:

McNeil did fine for the Chargers his rookie year.

Skinny
02-04-2008, 10:56 PM
McNeil's a better football player too. Was one of the top players in his Draft ... All-SEC, etc ... now he's a Pro Bowler ...

I don't think many Charger fans who knew of McNeil had worries about him stepping in and performing. Your a very knowledgable guy on draft prospects Boss, would you have??

SD fans knew what they got when they picked him ... a Franchise LT ...

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:02 PM
He better step it up from the sophomore slump if he wants to stay in good graces

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 11:16 PM
Yeah, I don't know how McNeil made the pro bowl this year... he was horrible.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:18 PM
Yeah, I don't know how McNeil made the pro bowl this year... he was horrible.

I don't expect him to be a bust, but I don't think the rookie hype he got was worth it

slim
02-04-2008, 11:20 PM
Are we talking about Harris or McNeil??

I'm confused.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:21 PM
Are we talking about Harris or McNeil??

I'm confused.

McNeill

slim
02-04-2008, 11:23 PM
McNeill

Do you think Harris will be better than NcNeil?

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:27 PM
Do you think Harris will be better than NcNeil?

Harris is just one of those players I can't really get a grasp on. He has the talen to be better...but will he maximize it? Who knows.

Scarface
02-04-2008, 11:37 PM
Harris is just one of those players I can't really get a grasp on. He has the talen to be better...but will he maximize it? Who knows.

Same here. He's got the athleticism we need for a LT. The staff likes him. I'm just going to be pissed if we pass on Clady and then Harris bombs out.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:43 PM
I agree. I'd prefer to draft Clady and play him at LT and put Harris at RT. I swear if I see Pears starting, I'm going to be sick.

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 12:01 AM
The best news about Harris is the fact that he has the foot speed needed to play the position. As for experience, he has a year on the second string, along with 3 and a half years as a starter in elite level college competition.

Piss him off, and let him play.

As for Clady, hes tall and rangy, could be an awesome LT.

Hes mean.

I like mean.:mad:

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 12:03 AM
One way or another, I want to see someone brought in to push Harris and make him work for it. Maybe a ZBS guy like Duane Brown in the 4th.

SoCalBronco
02-05-2008, 12:13 AM
I agree. I'd prefer to draft Clady and play him at LT and put Harris at RT. I swear if I see Pears starting, I'm going to be sick.

Unless something changes, We can at least take comfort in the fact that there's still plenty of time to load up on Pepto.

lex
02-05-2008, 12:19 AM
Harris's size or talent/ability does'nt worry me ... it's his experiance. The 'lack of starting LT in the NFL protecting your Franchise QB' kinda experiance that scares the crap out of me.

If a OT is'nt ready to start right away at LT, it's usely in the best interest of the team to start him off a RT and groom them. I would feel much better about Harris a RT at the start of the 08' season than at LT.

If Mikey or Dennison, whoever makes the call there, decides to go with who we have on the roster, i'd feel alot better about Kuper at LT considering how much more game experiance he has than Harris. And he does'nt give up anything in the size department either at 6'4 302.

And i also hope at some point Harris so freakin proves me wrong i cry myself to sleep at night ... :elefant:


What worries be is a) we dont know if he is any good when bullets start flying and b) his injured back. A bad back is not a good problem for a linemen to have.

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 12:56 AM
So, is Harris destined to be a backup over a drafted OT in this years draft? Or are we gonna use him at guard? What about Kupe and Hamilton? RT? Pears? Holland? Myers? Nalen? Alexander? Snell?

Pears is 6'8" and 300 plus. He has a full year at RT, and 13 games at LT. He is getting stronger and better wouldnt you think?



If we draft another LT, and Nails and Hamilton come back, we will be overloaded at OL.

lex
02-05-2008, 01:09 AM
So, is Harris destined to be a backup over a drafted OT in this years draft? Or are we gonna use him at guard? What about Kupe and Hamilton? RT? Pears? Holland? Myers? Nalen? Alexander? Snell?

Pears is 6'8" and 300 plus. He has a full year at RT, and 13 games at LT. He is getting stronger and better wouldnt you think?



If we draft another LT, and Nails and Hamilton come back, we will be overloaded at OL.

Who are you asking?

dogfish
02-05-2008, 01:31 AM
:pray: :pray: :pray:

Broncolingus
02-05-2008, 01:40 AM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/VWBug_girl/fat.jpg

Meet our new DT

DC's gonna be pissed you mad another pic of one of his girlfriends...

dogfish
02-05-2008, 01:47 AM
So, is Harris destined to be a backup over a drafted OT in this years draft? Or are we gonna use him at guard? What about Kupe and Hamilton? RT? Pears? Holland? Myers? Nalen? Alexander? Snell?

Pears is 6'8" and 300 plus. He has a full year at RT, and 13 games at LT. He is getting stronger and better wouldnt you think?



If we draft another LT, and Nails and Hamilton come back, we will be overloaded at OL.




overloaded with a bunch of average guys, maybe-- there's not a dominator in the bunch, not even nails anymore. . . to answer your question about pears, IMO he did not show much progress this year, if any. . . i think he's a limited player-- he doesn't have the feet or the balance to handle speed off the edge, and he doesn't seem to play with the power you'd expect from a guy his size. . . sure, he can improve with more experience and continued improvement to his technique, but i question how much. . . throw in harris' inexperience added to his back problems, and OT might be the weakest position on the team right now-- DEFINITELY needs some help, especially if we actually want to keep cutler healthy. . . it would be great to bring in a vet who can play right away, but it's not like the free agent market is ever exactly full of quality left tackles, and bowlen's recent comments about free agent spending didn't exactly sound like he was real high on the idea of another spending spree this offseason. . .

with a class that's strong at the top, i don't know when we're ever going to get a better chance to grab a top-quality OT prospect, and i think we should take it-- i'd absolutely take clady if he's there at 12, although we might be able to trade back a few spots and still get jeff otah or chris williams, or grab a very promising RT prospect in cherilus. . . we could also look at baker if he's there in the 2nd, which i'm starting to think he might be-- not my favorite prospect, but he's pretty polished and should be able to start quickly. . .

ultimately though, if we don't sign any significant free agents, MY preference would be to take an OT in the 1st and maybe a DT in the 2nd-- it's gonna be interesting to see how they stack up after the combine. . . . knowing shanahan though, he'll probably take a WR and a LB on the 1st day, and ignore the lines. . . . :mad:

dogfish
02-05-2008, 01:48 AM
DC's gonna be pissed you mad another pic of one of his girlfriends...

not as mad as i'm gonna be if that *******'s really dating my mom!!



:boxing:

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 02:02 AM
Pears may be our fall back guy there as he is a natural LT where he has played most of his career and filled in OK for Lepsis the year before.. In fact he might have even been better than Lepsis was this year..

I think all of this is so totally premature until after the combine.. When is that BTW..

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 02:11 AM
Who are you asking?


Everyone. :grillin:

SoCalBronco
02-05-2008, 02:19 AM
I would love to see Harris step up and cement his place as the starting LT, but before that means anything there has to be COMPETITION to step up to.
I'm starting to come around to the idea of drafting Clady at #12.

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 02:21 AM
overloaded with a bunch of average guys, maybe-- there's not a dominator in the bunch, not even nails anymore. . . to answer your question about pears, IMO he did not show much progress this year, if any. . . i think he's a limited player-- he doesn't have the feet or the balance to handle speed off the edge, and he doesn't seem to play with the power you'd expect from a guy his size. . . sure, he can improve with more experience and continued improvement to his technique, but i question how much. . . throw in harris' inexperience added to his back problems, and OT might be the weakest position on the team right now-- DEFINITELY needs some help, especially if we actually want to keep cutler healthy. . . it would be great to bring in a vet who can play right away, but it's not like the free agent market is ever exactly full of quality left tackles, and bowlen's recent comments about free agent spending didn't exactly sound like he was real high on the idea of another spending spree this offseason. . .

with a class that's strong at the top, i don't know when we're ever going to get a better chance to grab a top-quality OT prospect, and i think we should take it-- i'd absolutely take clady if he's there at 12, although we might be able to trade back a few spots and still get jeff otah or chris williams, or grab a very promising RT prospect in cherilus. . . we could also look at baker if he's there in the 2nd, which i'm starting to think he might be-- not my favorite prospect, but he's pretty polished and should be able to start quickly. . .

ultimately though, if we don't sign any significant free agents, MY preference would be to take an OT in the 1st and maybe a DT in the 2nd-- it's gonna be interesting to see how they stack up after the combine. . . . knowing shanahan though, he'll probably take a WR and a LB on the 1st day, and ignore the lines. . . . :mad:


Well, I'll admit that the guy is not dominant at this point of his game, but I also dont remember anyone coming from his side of the field and pasting Cutler. Houston seemed to give him fits with Mario. But Mario gives everyone fits.

Hes young, last year was only his third year, and the Oline only allowed 36 sacks last year, and that was with a banged up Lepsis. Hes already mobile, and a very good run blocker. If he adds some strength, I think he'll be fine. Each year hes got to be getting stronger, and Denver is surely pushing him.

That being said, if CLady is the real deal, Id gladly take him. As long as he comes in and starts from day 1.

dogfish
02-05-2008, 02:31 AM
Well, I'll admit that the guy is not dominant at this point of his game, but I also dont remember anyone coming from his side of the field and pasting Cutler. Houston seemed to give him fits with Mario. But Mario gives everyone fits.

Hes young, last year was only his third year, and the Oline only allowed 36 sacks last year, and that was with a banged up Lepsis. Hes already mobile, and a very good run blocker. If he adds some strength, I think he'll be fine. Each year hes got to be getting stronger, and Denver is surely pushing him.



JMO of course, but i thought he got beaten far too regularly in pass pro-- maybe there wasn't one particular game where he got flat dominated other than houston, but i though he gave up pretty consistent pressure. . . i don't consider him to be a particularly good run blocker, either-- i would agree that he has adequate mobility for the ZBS, but i don't ever remember him blowing anybody up, and he should be at his size. . . . it's not like i can watch every lineman on every play of course, and i didn't have the heart to re-watch games this season, so maybe i'm just missing it. . . . however, i will throw out a stat from football outsiders-- they had us ranked 26th in runs over right tackle. . . not that i think their work is gospel by any means, but their approach is interesting at the very least. . . i don't expect everybody to agree, but i personally will be extremely disappointed if we don't at least give ourselves some other decent options at OT. . . .

broncohead
02-05-2008, 04:32 AM
If we don't bring in a top FA OT and don't draft an OT in the first day then that means that the coaching staff thinks that Harris can replace Lepsis and Pearse can continue to progress. I wouldn't be against bringing in more OL.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 08:09 AM
McNeil's a better football player too. Was one of the top players in his Draft ... All-SEC, etc ... now he's a Pro Bowler ...

I don't think many Charger fans who knew of McNeil had worries about him stepping in and performing. Your a very knowledgable guy on draft prospects Boss, would you have??

SD fans knew what they got when they picked him ... a Franchise LT ...

And Calvin Johnson is better than Brandon Marshall................Because he was a top 10 pick, right?

SmilinAssasSin27
02-05-2008, 08:50 AM
I have about zero faith in Harris, but he is who we have right now. The coaches have invested a fairly early draft pick on him and from what I am hearing...they like him. We aren't 1 year off from teh SB, so I say let the boy play. Let him shine or fail. If he fails, do what we need to do to get that LT in the 09 draft. In the meantime, let's fix the D.

Scarface
02-05-2008, 09:06 AM
So, is Harris destined to be a backup over a drafted OT in this years draft? Or are we gonna use him at guard? What about Kupe and Hamilton? RT? Pears? Holland? Myers? Nalen? Alexander? Snell?

Pears is 6'8" and 300 plus. He has a full year at RT, and 13 games at LT. He is getting stronger and better wouldnt you think?



If we draft another LT, and Nails and Hamilton come back, we will be overloaded at OL.

I honestly believe the staff likes Harris and he will be our starter at LT. I just hope the staff isn't wrong about him.

If they are right, we are in great shape and can address other positions in the draft.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 09:09 AM
And Calvin Johnson is better than Brandon Marshall................Because he was a top 10 pick, right?

No, it would mostly be because he has more talent.

MHCBill
02-05-2008, 09:12 AM
I honestly believe the staff likes Harris and he will be our starter at LT. I just hope the staff isn't wrong about him.

If they are right, we are in great shape and can address other positions in the draft.Couldn't agree more.

I say there is zero chance we draft a OT in the first round.

It will shout that we screwed up on our Harris pick from the year before. We have to let him play first to know whether or not he's a keeper.

See sig below...

Hobe
02-05-2008, 09:21 AM
Hey, first we talk about developing rookies, then we slam the young player. It's off-season. We will see who works hard in the program. Mini-camps for training and development. Lets see who grows. We need two strong tackles to make the running game work and protect Cutler. I am happy to have a lot of young potential.:D

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 10:20 AM
No, it would mostly be because he has more talent.


More talent than Marshall? ...................Now THAT, I've got to see.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 10:23 AM
Pears played LT in 2006..............Did pretty well. I think Harris can do even better than that. Not sure what all the panic is about. But I sure hope we don't pull another George Foster in the 1st round again.

mclark
02-05-2008, 12:21 PM
McNeil did fine for the Chargers his rookie year.

I'll trade Harris for McNeil straight up right now.

mclark
02-05-2008, 12:27 PM
Does the staff really like Harris that much? Or are they just blowing hot air? They thought Jeremy LeSeuer would be a starter. They loved Paymah's potential. Willie Middlebrook was going to be an all pro cornerback.

If Harris is such a bright light, why wasn't he starting at the end of this season? Our offensive line was a total mess the second half of the season, and Harris managed to play in only three games this year.

Chronic back problems?

Are we going to trust our franchise quarterback to a rookie left tackle with chronic back problems and an undrafted right tackle who was less than spectacular this season? I hope not.

Protect your qb and let him light up the passing game. Then you can draft 7 defensive players after that.

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 12:30 PM
I honestly believe the staff likes Harris and he will be our starter at LT. I just hope the staff isn't wrong about him.

If they are right, we are in great shape and can address other positions in the draft.


Im inclined to think so. Remember, he had a first round grade up until the injury. Also, I think he will play fine if he plays mean, but Im more concerned about his back more than anything else. He has the feet, and what he has struggled with in the past isnt something that cant be fixed with coaching and hard work. Remember that the first team D goes against the second team O in practice, and Harris has been getting work.

With that being said, if we were to draft another OT and he came in and dominated, then I think we have the makings of a really good line.

Im not asking for much, just a line like the one Zim anchored.

Is it wrong to want to see commercials about our Oline on TV again?

Like how about the Broncos Oline smashing the Power Rangers or sumthin, eh? :coffee:

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 12:31 PM
Does the staff really like Harris that much? Or are they just blowing hot air? They thought Jeremy LeSeuer would be a starter. They loved Paymah's potential. Willie Middlebrook was going to be an all pro cornerback.

If Harris is such a bright light, why wasn't he starting at the end of this season? Our offensive line was a total mess the second half of the season, and Harris managed to play in only three games this year.

Chronic back problems?

Are we going to trust our franchise quarterback to a rookie left tackle with chronic back problems and an undrafted right tackle who was less than spectacular this season? I hope not.

Protect your qb and let him light up the passing game. Then you can draft 7 defensive players after that.

Thats the million dollar question.

mclark
02-05-2008, 12:33 PM
Pears played LT in 2006..............Did pretty well. I think Harris can do even better than that. Not sure what all the panic is about. But I sure hope we don't pull another George Foster in the 1st round again.

Pears played pretty well at left tackle -- but that was the year that our pass protection was based on Jake Plummer running around tryiing to get outside the pocket. Teams just tried to force Jake to stay in the pocket -- and force him to beat them with his arm.

I'm not sure Pears was as effective once Cutler took over.

turftoad
02-05-2008, 12:40 PM
Denver does't ussually draft O Line early in the draft. Harris was drafted in the third round. The Broncos traded up to get him. He was rated by many scouts as the third ranked OT in the draft last year. He is a typical Broncos OL'man, quick, smart and a good technician. Yeah ......... the knock on him is his back and his aggresivness. His back is supposed to better and hopefully the coach's will work on his aggression.
Almost gotta give the kid a chance.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 12:43 PM
Denver does't ussually draft O Line early in the draft. Harris was drafted in the third round. The Broncos traded up to get him. He was rated by many scouts as the third ranked OT in the draft last year. He is a typical Broncos OL'man, quick, smart and a good technician. Yeah ......... the knock on him is his back and his aggresivness. His back is supposed to better and hopefully the coach's will work on his aggression.
Almost gotta give the kid a chance.

Yep...............Alot of fans to ready to write off other players as well...............Kuper..Myers.....Already hearing trash about Selvin Young not being durable enough. We just need to give these players with potential, a few years to develope.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 12:48 PM
When Cutler is on the DL, I'll be sure to ask him how the young O-line is developing

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 12:49 PM
When Cutler is on the DL, I'll be sure to ask him how the young O-line is developing

You worry too much Coach..............

turftoad
02-05-2008, 12:51 PM
I haven't seen or read anywhere thats says his back problem is chronic. At this point, Paymah is a better player than Foxworth.



Does the staff really like Harris that much? Or are they just blowing hot air? They thought Jeremy LeSeuer would be a starter. They loved Paymah's potential. Willie Middlebrook was going to be an all pro cornerback.

If Harris is such a bright light, why wasn't he starting at the end of this season? Our offensive line was a total mess the second half of the season, and Harris managed to play in only three games this year.

Chronic back problems?

Are we going to trust our franchise quarterback to a rookie left tackle with chronic back problems and an undrafted right tackle who was less than spectacular this season? I hope not.

Protect your qb and let him light up the passing game. Then you can draft 7 defensive players after that.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 12:52 PM
Everyone says they know we can get anyone to rush for 1000 yards, but they still want that "stud running back". Well, as long as Cutler is the featured part of this offense, I want the "stud left tackle"

Slick
02-05-2008, 12:54 PM
Everyone says they know we can get anyone to rush for 1000 yards, but they still want that "stud running back". Well, as long as Cutler is the featured part of this offense, I want the "stud left tackle"

There's about 15 posters swinging from Mendenhall and Sterwart's nuts over at Broncomania.

I agree, I want that LT first, then a stud back. Davis from Clemson next year maybe.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 12:57 PM
There's about 15 posters swinging from Mendenhall and Sterwart's nuts over at Broncomania.

I agree, I want that LT first, then a stud back. Davis from Clemson next year maybe.

...and both of those players would be nice additions...just not what we need to keep our prized possession alive.

mclark
02-05-2008, 01:05 PM
Everyone says they know we can get anyone to rush for 1000 yards, but they still want that "stud running back". Well, as long as Cutler is the featured part of this offense, I want the "stud left tackle"

I just keep chanting: "Super Bowls, Hall of Fame left tackle. Super Bowls, Hall of Fame left tackle...!"


Watching clips of Zimmerman in a Bronco uniform was a revelation. Now there was an offensive lineman!

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 01:08 PM
Pears played LT in 2006..............Did pretty well. I think Harris can do even better than that. Not sure what all the panic is about. But I sure hope we don't pull another George Foster in the 1st round again.

He played pretty well there from what I remember he is a natural LT played there pretty much his whole career..


Does the staff really like Harris that much? Or are they just blowing hot air? They thought Jeremy LeSeuer would be a starter. They loved Paymah's potential. Willie Middlebrook was going to be an all pro cornerback.

If Harris is such a bright light, why wasn't he starting at the end of this season? Our offensive line was a total mess the second half of the season, and Harris managed to play in only three games this year.

Chronic back problems?

Are we going to trust our franchise quarterback to a rookie left tackle with chronic back problems and an undrafted right tackle who was less than spectacular this season? I hope not.

Protect your qb and let him light up the passing game. Then you can draft 7 defensive players after that.


I think mikey was trying to keep Lepsis in because of his experience for lack of nothing else.. Hindsight tells us all he should have gotten Harris playing time so we know for sure what we really need for the future.

mclark
02-05-2008, 01:08 PM
I haven't seen or read anywhere thats says his back problem is chronic. At this point, Paymah is a better player than Foxworth.

When DWilliams was killed, instead of letting our drafted cornerbacks take over the job, we traded for another cornerback.

Paymah is more physical that Foxworth. And he seems to finally be getting it. Whether he will ever be an NFL starter is still unclear.

lex
02-05-2008, 01:08 PM
Im inclined to think so. Remember, he had a first round grade up until the injury. Also, I think he will play fine if he plays mean, but Im more concerned about his back more than anything else. He has the feet, and what he has struggled with in the past isnt something that cant be fixed with coaching and hard work. Remember that the first team D goes against the second team O in practice, and Harris has been getting work.

With that being said, if we were to draft another OT and he came in and dominated, then I think we have the makings of a really good line.

Im not asking for much, just a line like the one Zim anchored.

Is it wrong to want to see commercials about our Oline on TV again?

Like how about the Broncos Oline smashing the Power Rangers or sumthin, eh? :coffee:


I think we should look at someone like Nicks, who might be able to play both LT or RT. He's slotted for the 2nd. We could also target John Greco.

turftoad
02-05-2008, 01:15 PM
When DWilliams was killed, instead of letting our drafted cornerbacks take over the job, we traded for another cornerback.

Paymah is more physical that Foxworth. And he seems to finally be getting it. Whether he will ever be an NFL starter is still unclear.

Yep......... we traded for Bly. To be honest, none of the CB's we drafted that year will probably be starters. Even D. Will (may he rest in peace) was only average. Both Paymah and Foxworth are good nickle and back up guys but I wouldn't feel good about either one of them as a starter.

lex
02-05-2008, 01:20 PM
Yep......... we traded for Bly. To be honest, none of the CB's we drafted that year will probably be starters. Even D. Will (may he rest in peace) was only average. Both Paymah and Foxworth are good nickle and back up guys but I wouldn't feel good about either one of them as a starter.

Theyre better than people realize. We have a somewhat skewed perspective since until recently the only pass rush weve had came from blitzing...and then after the pittsburgh game we stopped blitzing...and then we couldnt stop the run. If these guys played on teams who had their affairs in order on defense more than we have had, theyd look a lot better.

Slick
02-05-2008, 01:22 PM
I think we should look at someone like Nicks, who might be able to play both LT or RT. He's slotted for the 2nd. We could also target John Greco.

While I'd prefer a first round talent to go with our Franchise QB, I can't argue this type of thinking either. Either way, we need the depth. If Bowlen and Coach stick to their guns and stay away from the free agent market(obviously there will be some signings, but I doubt any big contracts will be given) we will need some sort of insurance policy.

If anything happens to Pears or Harris like what happened this year to our o line...

turftoad
02-05-2008, 01:32 PM
Theyre better than people realize. We have a somewhat skewed perspective since until recently the only pass rush weve had came from blitzing...and then after the pittsburgh game we stopped blitzing...and then we couldnt stop the run. If these guys played on teams who had their affairs in order on defense more than we have had, theyd look a lot better.

I don't think they are, neither does the coaching staff. If they did they wouldn't have gone out and got Bly.

lex
02-05-2008, 01:40 PM
I don't think they are, neither does the coaching staff. If they did they wouldn't have gone out and got Bly.

You dont think that was the best value they could get for Bell and Foster and thats why they acquired Bly? Perhaps they werent targeting Bly as much as thats what was offered. Remember, we were considering trading up to #2 at one point so different scenarios were being discussed. We definitely know that much.

topscribe
02-05-2008, 02:17 PM
Yep......... we traded for Bly. To be honest, none of the CB's we drafted that year will probably be starters. Even D. Will (may he rest in peace) was only average. Both Paymah and Foxworth are good nickle and back up guys but I wouldn't feel good about either one of them as a starter.

Actually, some seemed to feel D-Will was headed for stardom. Remember, we
last saw him in only his second year. Far as Foxy and Paymah are concerned,
I guess that's why they were taken in the third round, instead of first or
second. You start drafting for depth from then on, don't you?

Yes, the Broncos needed Bly, but I don't think they would have given him a
sniff, had they not lost D-Will.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that the reason the secondary did not perform
to apparent expectations was largely due to poor pass rush and run defense.

-----

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 02:19 PM
Yep......... we traded for Bly. To be honest, none of the CB's we drafted that year will probably be starters. Even D. Will (may he rest in peace) was only average. Both Paymah and Foxworth are good nickle and back up guys but I wouldn't feel good about either one of them as a starter.


Most folks I knew were calling for another CB late in the year in 2006. Then Darrent died and he became Champ junior. He was IMO like you said average, better than Paymah but IMO not starter material.. If he did not have Champ on the other side the pure passers would have had a field day HOF numbers each week against that defense.. no pass rush unless we sent the 3rd army across the LOS we got zero pressure on the good OLINE and QB's..

Then everyone climbed on foxworthless' nuts how wonderful he was and some even think he could start on many teams in the NFL. Perhaps so but those would be pretty pitiful defense to start with.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 02:42 PM
I thought DW was on his way to being an excellent CB...............even though his 2006 season was not as good as his rookie year............. The guy was very strong for his size, had good speed and a great punt returner...............Now, Paymah looks to be the guy that will be our nickel over Foxworth.

dogfish
02-05-2008, 03:21 PM
I have about zero faith in Harris, but he is who we have right now. The coaches have invested a fairly early draft pick on him and from what I am hearing...they like him. We aren't 1 year off from teh SB, so I say let the boy play. Let him shine or fail. If he fails, do what we need to do to get that LT in the 09 draft. In the meantime, let's fix the D.

i would agree with you if he was playing a position other than left tackle, but if he fails he just might get our franchise player hurt-- he's already had one concussion thanks to george foster, i don't want to see him getting any more. . . . coach is 1000% right to be concerned about it. . .


also, as of right now, we have NO depth there whatsoever-- if harris does fail, who do we turn to?

turftoad
02-05-2008, 03:40 PM
i would agree with you if he was playing a position other than left tackle, but if he fails he just might get our franchise player hurt-- he's already had one concussion thanks to george foster, i don't want to see him getting any more. . . . coach is 1000% right to be concerned about it. . .


also, as of right now, we have NO depth there whatsoever-- if harris does fail, who do we turn to?

So....................... what IF we draft Clady and he fails???? Foster was a first rounder too remember.

If, if, if, if etc.....

dogfish
02-05-2008, 03:49 PM
So....................... what IF we draft Clady and he fails???? Foster was a first rounder too remember.

If, if, if, if etc.....





we need more depth at tackle, and that's fact-- right now we have a grand total of one player on our roster who's ever started a game at tackle in the NFL, and he's nothing special. . . . even if harris proves to be an adequate LT right out of the gate, your young guy (clady, or whoever) provides talented depth, and can potentially push pears at RT as the year goes on. . . . i never suggested that someone like clady couldn't fail-- i AM saying that we need more options for the crucial spot on the line, and it's my belief that clady projects as a much better player than ryan harris based on their respective size, skill set and college performance. . . .

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:07 PM
we need more depth at tackle, and that's fact-- right now we have a grand total of one player on our roster who's ever started a game at tackle in the NFL, and he's nothing special. . . . even if harris proves to be an adequate LT right out of the gate, your young guy (clady, or whoever) provides talented depth, and can potentially push pears at RT as the year goes on. . . . i never suggested that someone like clady couldn't fail-- i AM saying that we need more options for the crucial spot on the line, and it's my belief that clady projects as a much better player than ryan harris based on their respective size, skill set and college performance. . . .

Let's try to work our cap a little better than that.............It's like spending a ton of money on Henry, only to have Selvin Young, who plays for basically the minimum, start.................Now, say we draft a Tackle#1...............but Harris turns out to be our starting LT.............Now we have a huge salary sitting on the bench...........I don't think that's a safe bet drafting a Tackle with our #1 pick..............

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Let's try to work our cap a little better than that.............It's like spending a ton of money on Henry, only to have Selvin Young, who plays for basically the minimum, start.................Now, say we draft a Tackle#1...............but Harris turns out to be our starting LT.............Now we have a huge salary sitting on the bench...........I don't think that's a safe bet drafting a Tackle with our #1 pick..............

Move one to RT. I'll take almost anyone over there besides Pears.

dogfish
02-05-2008, 04:12 PM
Let's try to work our cap a little better than that.............It's like spending a ton of money on Henry, only to have Selvin Young, who plays for basically the minimum, start.................Now, say we draft a Tackle#1...............but Harris turns out to be our starting LT.............Now we have a huge salary sitting on the bench...........I don't think that's a safe bet drafting a Tackle with our #1 pick..............

sitting on the bench until he takes pears' job away from him. . . . :D


and that's assuming harris turns out to be the guy, and his back can hold up for a full season. . . .




besides which, it's common for our OLs to sit for a year. . . i hate the "only draft them if they can start right away" philosophy-- if you limit your choices that way you might end up missing some guys with exceptional long-term potential. . . . also, there is no "safe bet" when drafting. . . .

dogfish
02-05-2008, 04:13 PM
Move one to RT. I'll take almost anyone over there besides Pears.

hah. . . you type faster than i do. . . . :lol:

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:14 PM
Not that I DON'T want another Zimmerman or Tony Jones, but if we can get by with Harris and Pears, then we can spend that money elsewhere. I just hope we draft a Defensive player #1.............after that, I don't care AS MUCH.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:16 PM
Not that I DON'T want another Zimmerman or Tony Jones, but if we can get by with Harris and Pears, then we can spend that money elsewhere. I just hope we draft a Defensive player #1.............after that, I don't care AS MUCH.

This is what you want to do when our offense revolves around a young stud QB? Wow.

I won't disagree with getting a defensive player forst, but at some point we need to draft a tackle, even if it's just to give Harris and (yuck) Pears a little competition.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:24 PM
This is what you want to do when our offense revolves around a young stud QB? Wow.

I won't disagree with getting a defensive player forst, but at some point we need to draft a tackle, even if it's just to give Harris and (yuck) Pears a little competition.


Okay, I'll tell you what I'll do.............If we draft Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey #1, then we can go ahead and draft a Tackle # 2...............How about that? .............But if we don't take a DT #1, then we'll have to use our #2 on a DT..............leaving only 4th round picks for a Tackle.................OR... worry about a Tackle in 2009...............now Coach,tell me if this is okay, because I'm e-mailing Shanahan as we speak.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:26 PM
Okay, I'll tell you what I'll do.............If we draft Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey #1, then we can go ahead and draft a Tackle # 2...............How about that? .............But if we don't take a DT #1, then we'll have to use our #2 on a DT..............leaving only 4th round picks for a Tackle.................OR... worry about a Tackle in 2009...............now Coach,tell me if this is okay, because I'm e-mailing Shanahan as we speak.

What quality of a DT are you getting in the 2nd that you can't get in the 4th?

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:29 PM
What quality of a DT are you getting in the 2nd that you can't get in the 4th?


Trevor Law and Pat Sims...........

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:31 PM
Trevor Law and Pat Sims...........

Will Pat simms make it to our #2 pick? Is Laws really that much better than Okam, Pressley, Fluellen, Rubin, Dotson?

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:32 PM
What quality of a DT are you getting in the 2nd that you can't get in the 4th?

Looking at that again.............I can't believe you asked that question.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Will Pat simms make it to our #2 pick? Is Laws really that much better than Okam, Pressley, Fluellen, Rubin, Dotson?


Is Laws better than Okam??????????? Good God man............What is up with you today?

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:34 PM
Is Laws better than Okam??????????? Good God man............What is up with you today?

Let me reword it. Is Laws a better value based on our needs in the 2nd than the rest of my list would be in the 4th?

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:35 PM
Let me reword it. Is Laws a better value based on our needs in the 2nd than the rest of my list would be in the 4th?

Laws would start for us.................. That's what I want from a draft pick.............to step in and start............4th rounders usually end up being Dorsett Davis, Monsanto Pope, guys like that.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:38 PM
Laws would start for us.................. That's what I want from a draft pick.............to step in and start............4th rounders usually end up being Dorsett Davis, Monsanto Pope, guys like that.

Here's my scenario for filling 2 needs.

Laws in round 2...Ezra Butler/Alvin Bowen, etc in round 4...

...or...

Groves/Henderson in round 2...Okam/Dotson/Pressley/Hayden, etc. in round 4.

I like the 2nd scenario better based on overall value.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:44 PM
Here's my scenario for filling 2 needs.

Laws in round 2...Ezra Butler/Alvin Bowen, etc in round 4...

...or...

Groves/Henderson in round 2...Okam/Dotson/Pressley/Hayden, etc. in round 4.

I like the 2nd scenario better based on overall value.


Coach...............Do me a favor.............And never mention Frank Okam's name again...............Thanks.

tubby
02-05-2008, 04:46 PM
Trevor Law and Pat Sims...........

I'd throw Marcus Harrison in there too.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 04:58 PM
I'm not that sure Law will last until our pick in the 2nd round.............43rd overall............since NE lost their pick.

tubby
02-05-2008, 05:45 PM
I'm not that sure Law will last until our pick in the 2nd round.............43rd overall............since NE lost their pick.

Actually we have the 42nd pick overall. Just cause.

WARHORSE
02-05-2008, 05:55 PM
Not that Im saying draft a RB, but a dominant RB will help protect Cutler as well as a LT. Not only in picking up blitzes, but by running the ball dominantly.

Make no mistake about it, that fake dive up the gut or off tackle when it comes to a dominant runningback will do amazing things to the LBers and safeties. Its called playaction, its a Broncos staple, and when you have a dominant RB, you'll see wide open receivers and TEs running all over the field...........or a runningback up someones front and down their back.

I'll take an impact LT, but I'll take an impact RB too. Especially if the LT has to 'develope'.

Skinny
02-05-2008, 06:16 PM
And Calvin Johnson is better than Brandon Marshall................Because he was a top 10 pick, right?I think you misunderstood my post HD.

And FTR, no, Brandon Marshall is a better NFL player than Calvin Johnson is right now because it is what it is. JMO though ...

topscribe
02-05-2008, 06:23 PM
Not that Im saying draft a RB, but a dominant RB will help protect Cutler as well as a LT. Not only in picking up blitzes, but by running the ball dominantly.

Make no mistake about it, that fake dive up the gut or off tackle when it comes to a dominant runningback will do amazing things to the LBers and safeties. Its called playaction, its a Broncos staple, and when you have a dominant RB, you'll see wide open receivers and TEs running all over the field...........or a runningback up someones front and down their back.

I'll take an impact LT, but I'll take an impact RB too. Especially if the LT has to 'develope'.

I think you can look no further than our Travis Henry. Until he went down
last year, he was leading the NFL in rushing. I don't know how one can get
more dominant than that.

Now, about drafting for the D-line. Or (second to that) LT . . .

-----

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 06:30 PM
I think you can look no further than our Travis Henry. Until he went down
last year, he was leading the NFL in rushing. I don't know how one can get
more dominant than that.

Now, about drafting for the D-line. Or (second to that) LT . . .

-----


While those numbers are semi impressive you have to look at the teams he put them up against.. Some of the lousiest Run Defenses in the league..

I'll take dominant LOS play with marquee players over what we have had fro a long while except during the SB years.. Hmmmmm I have to wonder if that is not really the root factor of DENs constant decline.

topscribe
02-05-2008, 06:35 PM
While those numbers are semi impressive you have to look at the teams he put them up against.. Some of the lousiest Run Defenses in the league..

I'll take dominant LOS play with marquee players over what we have had fro a long while except during the SB years.. Hmmmmm I have to wonder if that is not really the root factor of DENs constant decline.

It isn't like that was Henry's first year, where those were the only games from
which we can judge. He already was highly regarded as a running back. That's
why he signed for the big bucks. The point is, what's the point in getting a
dominant running back when the Broncos have one who has shown, far before
those games even took place, that he can be a dominant running back?

Some people here are hyperventilating over drafting a running back, when
the Broncos desperately need people who can stop a running back.

-----

Slick
02-05-2008, 06:37 PM
While those numbers are semi impressive you have to look at the teams he put them up against.. Some of the lousiest Run Defenses in the league..

I'll take dominant LOS play with marquee players over what we have had fro a long while except during the SB years.. Hmmmmm I have to wonder if that is not really the root factor of DENs constant decline.

Not to mention all those yards with no TD's. If we do keep the trio we had last year, better line play should change that.

I guess an argument for a franchise back is valid, but with the current line, will it make that much of a difference? Larry Johnson and Shawn Alexander came down to earth after their line play went south.

Slick
02-05-2008, 06:44 PM
Actually, some seemed to feel D-Will was headed for stardom. Remember, we
last saw him in only his second year. Far as Foxy and Paymah are concerned,
I guess that's why they were taken in the third round, instead of first or
second. You start drafting for depth from then on, don't you?

Yes, the Broncos needed Bly, but I don't think they would have given him a
sniff, had they not lost D-Will.

Nonetheless, I still maintain that the reason the secondary did not perform
to apparent expectations was largely due to poor pass rush and run defense.

-----
I didn't want to take this off topic, but I completely agree. If we still had D-Will, no Bly. Plus he had heart and a passion for the game and was improving every week.

Also, he was the best punt returner this team has had since Rick Upchurch.

I miss him. :salute:

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 06:44 PM
It isn't like that was Henry's first year, where those were the only games from
which we can judge. He already was highly regarded as a running back. That's
why he signed for the big bucks. The point is, what's the point in getting a
dominant running back when the Broncos have one who has shown, far before
those games even took place, that he can be a dominant running back?

Some people here are hyperventilating over drafting a running back, when
the Broncos desperately need people who can stop a running back.

-----

Amen, brother your preaching to the choir.


Not to mention all those yards with no TD's. If we do keep the trio we had last year, better line play should change that.

I guess an argument for a franchise back is valid, but with the current line, will it make that much of a difference? Larry Johnson and Shawn Alexander came down to earth after their line play went south.

I'll take either upgrade on the LOS way before any "skill" players. Being an old OG I know that the games are indeed won or lost at the LOS..

I'd prefer the stud DT first but Jay also has to be watched over..

Slick
02-05-2008, 06:51 PM
Amen, brother your preaching to the choir.



I'll take either upgrade on the LOS way before any "skill" players. Being an old OG I know that the games are indeed won or lost at the LOS..

I'd prefer the stud DT first but Jay also has to be watched over..

I think if Ellis or Dorsey fell, absolutely. LT is close to as important,but no one feels like those two players will fall to us. From what I've read the DT's after them are a major reach at 12.

I hope Harris can play, and I'm not throwing him under the bus. I just think it's risky to count on it.

Hobe
02-05-2008, 09:18 PM
Im not asking for much, just a line like the one Zim anchored.

Sounds reasonable to me.:D

SmilinAssasSin27
02-05-2008, 09:39 PM
Were the run Ds he faced really that bad? Buffalo, Oakland and Jacksonville? All pretty stout vs the run. The first 2 had other issues, but was run D one of em?

lex
02-05-2008, 10:13 PM
It isn't like that was Henry's first year, where those were the only games from
which we can judge. He already was highly regarded as a running back. That's
why he signed for the big bucks. The point is, what's the point in getting a
dominant running back when the Broncos have one who has shown, far before
those games even took place, that he can be a dominant running back?

Some people here are hyperventilating over drafting a running back, when
the Broncos desperately need people who can stop a running back.

-----

Absolutely. Plus I think I read somewhere that Henry can run a 3.9 forty.

topscribe
02-05-2008, 10:14 PM
Absolutely. Plus I think I read somewhere that Henry can run a 3.9 forty.

Yes, Chris Henry can, in fact.

But we have Travis. He can't.

-----

gobroncsnv
02-05-2008, 11:31 PM
Some people here are hyperventilating over drafting a running back, when
the Broncos desperately need people who can stop a running back.

-----

Madden-ites and FF-leaguers... Too many think that it's only the skill positions that make a team win real games.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 12:06 AM
You should Youtube Ryan Harris if you haven't already.... there are a lot of video's of him on there from before he played at Notre Dame...... He was so skinny compared to where he is now.

WARHORSE
02-06-2008, 12:31 AM
It isn't like that was Henry's first year, where those were the only games from
which we can judge. He already was highly regarded as a running back. That's
why he signed for the big bucks. The point is, what's the point in getting a
dominant running back when the Broncos have one who has shown, far before
those games even took place, that he can be a dominant running back?

Some people here are hyperventilating over drafting a running back, when
the Broncos desperately need people who can stop a running back.

-----


I hate to be the one to mention this, not tryin to start a fight or anything......but Im havin a hard time findin where it was that Henry dominated. The only thing that I could see that he dominated was the sidelines, and that is a serious issue. If he had been non injury issue in the past, perhaps we could look at him as having bad luck this year. But this isnt the first time, nor the second.
I like how tough Henry runs, but what I didnt like was how many direct shots he took to the legs. I mean hard shots. He ran very hard in his first few games, very hard. But the way he was running, he was getting cracks left and right. Guys teein off on him. He didnt look good against Jacksonville either.

Part of bein a dominant runningback is being able to stay on the field.
That would be dominance.

Best case scenario, he stays healthy and pounds out 1500 yards tops. Mediocre scenario, he plays most of the season, but runs for 1200 yards.
Worst case scenario.....we saw that already.

Thing about a 1200 yard back........they dont scare no one.

Especially when you cant find the endzone.

SoCalBronco
02-06-2008, 01:28 AM
Henry and every other runner next year will be better off.
Shanny needs to make sure the Broncos field a better/healthier/deeper o-line to MAKE that happen.
If the o-line isn't better in 08 than 07, no WAY we make the playoffs.

topscribe
02-06-2008, 01:38 AM
I hate to be the one to mention this, not tryin to start a fight or anything......but Im havin a hard time findin where it was that Henry dominated. The only thing that I could see that he dominated was the sidelines, and that is a serious issue. If he had been non injury issue in the past, perhaps we could look at him as having bad luck this year. But this isnt the first time, nor the second.
I like how tough Henry runs, but what I didnt like was how many direct shots he took to the legs. I mean hard shots. He ran very hard in his first few games, very hard. But the way he was running, he was getting cracks left and right. Guys teein off on him. He didnt look good against Jacksonville either.

Part of bein a dominant runningback is being able to stay on the field.
That would be dominance.

Best case scenario, he stays healthy and pounds out 1500 yards tops. Mediocre scenario, he plays most of the season, but runs for 1200 yards.
Worst case scenario.....we saw that already.

Thing about a 1200 yard back........they dont scare no one.

Especially when you cant find the endzone.

It is true that Henry has been oft injured. However, his season previous to
coming to the Broncos was a 1,211 yard one . . . in 13 games. (He is
offically listed has having played 14, but in only 13 was he actually on the
field, for all intents and purposes.) That computes to the equivalent of
1,500 yards over 16 games, for comparative purposes.

Previous to that were two 1,400-yard seasons with Buffalo. So, yes, he
does have some success to show during his career.

So, coupled with Selvin Young, who has speed and is everything Tater
wasn't, they form a good change-of-pace duo, it would seem, and by
complementing each other, they should help each other to stay healthy.

Everybody seems to be full of Adrian Peterson. That is probably justifiably
so, but notice he went down last year, too. So superstar studs aren't
immune from it, either. The Broncos could stay with what they have at RB
and draft for the lines, where they need it, and take a chance of what they
have going down . . . or they could draft a stud RB, take a chance with his
going down, and have neither.

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of see a no-brainer here.

-----

mclark
02-06-2008, 11:57 AM
So....................... what IF we draft Clady and he fails???? Foster was a first rounder too remember.

If, if, if, if etc.....

Every player we might draft at #12 MIGHT fail. Courtney Brown was the #1 overeall, wasn't he? He was largely a failure as well, considering where he was drafted.

Injuries too can ruin a first round pick.

So, what do you do? You use your best judgment -- and go forward on faith.

(One thing about Foster: I don't think anyone else had him ranked as high as Denver did. I think we reached for him.)

HolyDiver
02-06-2008, 12:06 PM
Every player we might draft at #12 MIGHT fail. Courtney Brown was the #1 overeall, wasn't he? He was largely a failure as well, considering where he was drafted.

Injuries too can ruin a first round pick.

So, what do you do? You use your best judgment -- and go forward on faith.

(One thing about Foster: I don't think anyone else had him ranked as high as Denver did. I think we reached for him.)


There is even a possibility that Dan Connor won't be drafted in the first round.............Wait until James Hardy runs a sub 4.4 fourty and he'll start getting mentioned as a top 10 pick. I still hope, if Dorsey and Ellis are gone, we need to trade back atleast 8 spots.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 12:10 PM
Every player we might draft at #12 MIGHT fail. Courtney Brown was the #1 overeall, wasn't he? He was largely a failure as well, considering where he was drafted.

Injuries too can ruin a first round pick.

So, what do you do? You use your best judgment -- and go forward on faith.

(One thing about Foster: I don't think anyone else had him ranked as high as Denver did. I think we reached for him.)

Like you said... Injuries can ruin a first round pick, because if it wasn't for injuries, Brown would of been a beast... he was awesome when healthy... which was extremely rare.

Watchthemiddle
02-06-2008, 12:13 PM
I think we can all agree that Harris fits the mold.

I have read that some of you on here don't think he has enough experience to be our starting LT.

Well, anyone we draft...even if its Clady has even less experience then Harris.

Unless Clady is a man beast or we draft one that can step in and dominate from day one, I say stick with what we got, develop them and use our money and picks elsewhere. Just MO.

HolyDiver
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
I think we can all agree that Harris fits the mold.

I have read that some of you on here don't think he has enough experience to be our starting LT.

Well, anyone we draft...even if its Clady has even less experience then Harris.

Unless Clady is a man beast or we draft one that can step in and dominate from day one, I say stick with what we got, develop them and use our money and picks elsewhere. Just MO.

:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:


Finally, a man of reason...........I personally think Harris could turn into a very good LT.............Two positions the Broncos never need to draft high...........Runningbacks and O-linemen...........simply because of our system. Very few teams use the zone blocking-one-cut system, so, player evaluating is based on what the MAJORITY of teams are looking for. ...............We are usually looking for the exact opposite...............smaller and quick, as opposed to............well, George Foster.

lex
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
I think we can all agree that Harris fits the mold.

I have read that some of you on here don't think he has enough experience to be our starting LT.

Well, anyone we draft...even if its Clady has even less experience then Harris.

Unless Clady is a man beast or we draft one that can step in and dominate from day one, I say stick with what we got, develop them and use our money and picks elsewhere. Just MO.

He also has a bad back.

topscribe
02-06-2008, 12:21 PM
Every player we might draft at #12 MIGHT fail. Courtney Brown was the #1 overeall, wasn't he? He was largely a failure as well, considering where he was drafted.

Injuries too can ruin a first round pick.

So, what do you do? You use your best judgment -- and go forward on faith.

(One thing about Foster: I don't think anyone else had him ranked as high as Denver did. I think we reached for him.)

Yep. The O-line is still trying to get over that one . . .

-----

lex
02-06-2008, 12:26 PM
:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:


Finally, a man of reason...........I personally think Harris could turn into a very good LT.............Two positions the Broncos never need to draft high...........Runningbacks and O-linemen...........simply because of our system. Very few teams use the zone blocking-one-cut system, so, player evaluating is based on what the MAJORITY of teams are looking for. ...............We are usually looking for the exact opposite...............smaller and quick, as opposed to............well, George Foster.


More teams are using the ZBS now and mobile linemen with size go high. Our smallish guys are one of our problems in short yardage situations. Its been proposed that we need to get bigger guys who are mobile enough rather than small guys all the time.

What we need is to look for specific traits. If the higher end picks have those and the size to go with it, we shoudnt hesitate to take those guys because they are too big.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 12:28 PM
Does Maurice Williams play LT or is it RT?

I know he was moved to G for the Jags this season due to injuries, but he is a pretty good tackle.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 12:29 PM
Free agent OL Maurice Williams is not expected back with the Jags in 2008.

Williams started inside after G Chris Naeole tore his quads in 2007, but his best position is tackle. Richard Collier will likely replace Williams as the Jaguars' swing lineman. Williams should get a chance to start elsewhere.
Source: jaguars.com

He is only 29 years old and gives us a veteran with experience.

topscribe
02-06-2008, 12:31 PM
Henry and every other runner next year will be better off.
Shanny needs to make sure the Broncos field a better/healthier/deeper o-line to MAKE that happen.
If the o-line isn't better in 08 than 07, no WAY we make the playoffs.

It would seem to me that if the Broncos were to address anything in the
offensive backfield, they would go after someone such as Tony Richardson,
who is a UFA this year. They have the RBs. Now they need more holes. Just
think: Henry or Young running behind Graham and Richardson. :nod:

That, in my mind, would complete the backfield and open the opportunity to
go after linemen.

-----

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 12:33 PM
It would seem to me that if the Broncos were to address anything in the
offensive backfield, they would go after someone such as Tony Richardson,
who is a UFA this year. They have the RBs. Now they need more holes. Just
think: Henry or Young running behind Graham and Richardson. :nod:

-----

How old is he? Isn't he like 36 or 37?

topscribe
02-06-2008, 12:36 PM
How old is he? Isn't he like 36 or 37?

36. Which means a player who went to the Pro Bowl, who might come relatively cheap?

A good short-term investment, possibly?

-----

HolyDiver
02-06-2008, 12:36 PM
Full Name: Antonio Richardson
Born: December 17, 1971
Frankfurt, Germany
Height: 6-1
Weight: 238 lbs.

CoachChaz
02-06-2008, 12:47 PM
We can fill the tackle position later in the draft. Alot of solid guys in the 4th.

mclark
02-06-2008, 01:52 PM
We've done very well with late draft choices for the offensive line and free agents. That is, with our zone blocking system, we've been able to use smaller, athletic offensive lineman to make our running game go.

Problems with that: we haven't run very well inside the red zone because our offensive linemen get overpowered in short-yardage situations, especially as defensive linemen have gotten bigger and bigger.

A second problem has been that our smaller offensive linemen have not been very good at pass blocking, again being overpowered by larger defensive linemen. One of the reasons Jake Plummer was effective for us was because he was NOT a pocket passer and avoided sacks with his feet.

If we want Jay Cutler to be a pocket passer (and I'm not sure we don't want more moving pocket with Jay, because he throws better on the run too apparently), then we need to spend more money on better, bigger offensive linemen. We don't have Alex Gibbs any more. Our offensive line was terrible this past season. Lepsis has retired. Nalen and Hamilton are question marks. The only times we won the Super Bowl we had a first round pick playing left tackle for us. Maybe the time for fire-sale offensive linemen is over, especially if we want to try to keep Cutler healthy for a long career.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 01:54 PM
We've done very well with late draft choices for the offensive line and free agents. That is, with our zone blocking system, we've been able to use smaller, athletic offensive lineman to make our running game go.

Problems with that: we haven't run very well inside the red zone because our offensive linemen get overpowered in short-yardage situations, especially as defensive linemen have gotten bigger and bigger.

A second problem has been that our smaller offensive linemen have not been very good at pass blocking, again being overpowered by larger defensive linemen. One of the reasons Jake Plummer was effective for us was because he was NOT a pocket passer and avoided sacks with his feet.

If we want Jay Cutler to be a pocket passer (and I'm not sure we don't want more moving pocket with Jay, because he throws better on the run too apparently), then we need to spend more money on better, bigger offensive linemen. We don't have Alex Gibbs any more. Our offensive line was terrible this past season. Lepsis has retired. Nalen and Hamilton are question marks. The only times we won the Super Bowl we had a first round pick playing left tackle for us. Maybe the time for fire-sale offensive linemen is over, especially if we want to try to keep Cutler healthy for a long career.

I think it has more to do with players missing their assignments. Our O-line is very young and we also have some older players who are losing a step or two. Once our young guys get the system down we will be ok.

mclark
02-06-2008, 01:58 PM
I think it has more to do with players missing their assignments. Our O-line is very young and we also have some older players who are losing a step or two. Once our young guys get the system down we will be ok.

I don't know: I see a lot of overpowered Bronco offensive linemen late in the season, especially Myers and Pears. I think we're ok at center (if Nalen/Hamilton come back) and guard, but we're paper thin at tackle.

BOSSHOGG30
02-06-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't know: I see a lot of overpowered Bronco offensive linemen late in the season, especially Myers and Pears. I think we're ok at center (if Nalen/Hamilton come back) and guard, but we're paper thin at tackle.

Harris didn't really play much last season... It will be hard to over power him.. he is a big boy. Pears is very raw, I agree he has some work to do, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. Kuper can move to Tackle as well if Hamilton and Nalen both come back that is probably what will happen. We do need depth on the O-line, but I think the nucleus of the O-line is pretty promising.

mclark
02-06-2008, 02:11 PM
Harris didn't really play much last season... It will be hard to over power him.. he is a big boy. Pears is very raw, I agree he has some work to do, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. Kuper can move to Tackle as well if Hamilton and Nalen both come back that is probably what will happen. We do need depth on the O-line, but I think the nucleus of the O-line is pretty promising.

If Kuper has to move to tackle, then we're weak at guard.

I think the Broncos' insiders are going to tell us what they really think about Harris by who we try to sign as a free agent and who we draft.

I'm perplexed as to why Harris got almost no time at the end of this season when Lepsis was demoralized and Pears was lousy.

Lonestar
02-06-2008, 02:15 PM
Yep. The O-line is still trying to get over that one . . .

-----

NO mikey is still trying to cover up that turd, no litter box big enough..

G_Money
02-06-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm perplexed as to why Harris got almost no time at the end of this season when Lepsis was demoralized and Pears was lousy.

This is what I don't understand.

Lepsis talks up Harris, which is good...but I really don't like a pair of back surgeries in 2 years and the fact that he didn't get on the field even though we could have used him.

Harris isn't a big boy. Harris is an averaged-sized boy for a T position. Just because Lepsis was pretty small for the position, let's not go overboard. Every one of the 1st and 2nd round OTs in this draft are bigger.

Harris is 6'5" and 300ish pounds after a year in a pro weight room.

Long: 6'7", 315
Clady: 6'6, 316
Williams: 6'6", 320
Otah: 6'6", 340
Baker: 6'5", 310
Cherilus: 6'7", 315

Can Harris do what we want a lineman to do? Probably, yeah. Will he excel at it? Nobody knows.

I think we also need a replacement for Myers, regardless of whether Nalen and Hamilton are both back or not. I don't think he's strong enough to hold the middle.

I like Kuper and Holland fine, but both tackle positions need addressing and if we move Kuper to address RT, then we'll need another guard as mclark says.

I really hope Harris is the guy. It'd be a big help.

But even if he is, our work is not done. I'd rather plan for him not being the guy and be proven wrong - it's easier to deal with too many good linemen than too few.

~G

Lonestar
02-06-2008, 02:40 PM
This is what I don't understand.

Lepsis talks up Harris, which is good...but I really don't like a pair of back surgeries in 2 years and the fact that he didn't get on the field even though we could have used him.

Harris isn't a big boy. Harris is an averaged-sized boy for a T position. Just because Lepsis was pretty small for the position, let's not go overboard. Every one of the 1st and 2nd round OTs in this draft are bigger.

Harris is 6'5" and 300ish pounds after a year in a pro weight room.

Long: 6'7", 315
Clady: 6'6, 316
Williams: 6'6", 320
Otah: 6'6", 340
Baker: 6'5", 310
Cherilus: 6'7", 315

Can Harris do what we want a lineman to do? Probably, yeah. Will he excel at it? Nobody knows.

I think we also need a replacement for Myers, regardless of whether Nalen and Hamilton are both back or not. I don't think he's strong enough to hold the middle.

I like Kuper and Holland fine, but both tackle positions need addressing and if we move Kuper to address RT, then we'll need another guard as mclark says.

I really hope Harris is the guy. It'd be a big help.

But even if he is, our work is not done. I'd rather plan for him not being the guy and be proven wrong - it's easier to deal with too many good linemen than too few.

~G

Great post
Even with all the scenarios listed above I think we need another OT to push these guys and be back up.. Whether that is a 1 rounder or a 4-7 rounder depends on who they can get where.. If we can get a semi stud OT/DT in the 2nd great..

mclark
02-06-2008, 06:49 PM
I really hope Harris is the guy. It'd be a big help.

But even if he is, our work is not done. I'd rather plan for him not being the guy and be proven wrong - it's easier to deal with too many good linemen than too few.

~G

I agree with this. Having too much talent on the team IS the place we want to be, isn't it?

SoCalBronco
02-07-2008, 03:38 AM
I don't know: I see a lot of overpowered Bronco offensive linemen late in the season, especially Myers and Pears. I think we're ok at center (if Nalen/Hamilton come back) and guard, but we're paper thin at tackle.

Myers is TERRIBLE.
Always heard how smart & versitle He was, that He could "play every position along the line".
After watching Him get pushed back and flat run over by opposing defensive linemen, I don't even want Him on our bench. He's just not strong enough to play in the NFL.
just my take.

WARHORSE
02-07-2008, 04:42 AM
We also dont want to be cutting talent.

If Kuper is at guard, Hamilton at center, Holland at guard, Harris at LT, and Pears at RT, then we have Nalen and Myers on the bench as guys with talent. Say Nalen retires next year. That leaves quite a bit of spaces to fill, especially in the depth department.

If we get a dominant LT in this draft, then Harris can go RT, or one of the guard positions. That leaves Kuper, Holland, Pears to fill out the line. Im thinking that Kuper, when all is said and done, may be the best guy for right tackle. If we had a franchise LT in the draft, and Harris proved to be an all world left guard, then we have the basis for quite a line.

On a side note: The Denver Broncos look for run blocking linemen first. Though they want players that can do it all, in our scheme, the limited amount of sacks comes from our point in makin the QB get rid of the ball quickly. Much of the Broncos offense comes from DEs getting hung out to dry by dominant running off tackle, between guard and tackle. Thats one of the ways we slow the pass rush using smaller linemen, due to the fact that DEs arent so eager just to rush the QB when they know we have a RB that will gash them hugely if they dont honor the run. The place that we get hurt, is when we get behind, and the DE know they dont need to honor the run. Thats when really good DEs get after our QBs.

We ARENT looking to make our offense a pocket passing offense. Its just that in order for us to be dominant, we have to be able to do that when defenses try to take away our rollouts.

Unlike Jake Plummer, not only is Jay able to run, roll out, and pass accurately doing so, but he can ALSO beat you from the pocket.

Just like John Elway.

Scarface
02-07-2008, 08:46 AM
Harris didn't really play much last season... It will be hard to over power him.. he is a big boy. Pears is very raw, I agree he has some work to do, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. Kuper can move to Tackle as well if Hamilton and Nalen both come back that is probably what will happen. We do need depth on the O-line, but I think the nucleus of the O-line is pretty promising.

One of Harris' weaknesses in college was getting overpowered. For a LT he's not that big and strong. He's more of an athletic finesse tackle. Probably why we drafted him.

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Zimmerman and Tony Jones were both around 295.

CoachChaz
02-07-2008, 09:03 AM
Zimmerman and Tony Jones were both around 295.

That worked for them...10 years ago.

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 09:10 AM
That worked for them...10 years ago.

And 305 or 310 should work now.

CoachChaz
02-07-2008, 09:37 AM
And 305 or 310 should work now.

I didn't realize the suggested rate of evolutionary size increase was 1 to 1.5 pounds per year. Sorry

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 10:02 AM
I didn't realize the suggested rate of evolutionary size increase was 1 to 1.5 pounds per year. Sorry

Well, you should know this by now..............I, on the other hand.............Did not know that Tackles weighing less than 400 pounds, were ineffective................I too, am sorry.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 10:56 AM
And 305 or 310 should work now.

If the Broncos still had Zimmerman, 295 would still work.

Nonetheless, if Harris would gain 5 or 10 pounds in the weight room, that
would go a long way toward those strength concerns, I would think.

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
02-07-2008, 11:03 AM
Absolutely. Plus I think I read somewhere that Henry can run a 3.9 forty.

Nobody in the NFL runs even close to that. What a crock of skunk piss.

mclark
02-07-2008, 11:25 AM
Zimmerman and Tony Jones were both around 295.

295 is probably big enough, if you have good strength, balance and quick feet. Some guys at 215 are stronger than some guys at 300 pounds.

Also, defensive players just get bigger and bigger.

mclark
02-07-2008, 11:31 AM
We also dont want to be cutting talent.

If Kuper is at guard, Hamilton at center, Holland at guard, Harris at LT, and Pears at RT, then we have Nalen and Myers on the bench as guys with talent. Say Nalen retires next year. That leaves quite a bit of spaces to fill, especially in the depth department.

If we get a dominant LT in this draft, then Harris can go RT, or one of the guard positions. That leaves Kuper, Holland, Pears to fill out the line. Im thinking that Kuper, when all is said and done, may be the best guy for right tackle. If we had a franchise LT in the draft, and Harris proved to be an all world left guard, then we have the basis for quite a line.

On a side note: The Denver Broncos look for run blocking linemen first. Though they want players that can do it all, in our scheme, the limited amount of sacks comes from our point in makin the QB get rid of the ball quickly. Much of the Broncos offense comes from DEs getting hung out to dry by dominant running off tackle, between guard and tackle. Thats one of the ways we slow the pass rush using smaller linemen, due to the fact that DEs arent so eager just to rush the QB when they know we have a RB that will gash them hugely if they dont honor the run. The place that we get hurt, is when we get behind, and the DE know they dont need to honor the run. Thats when really good DEs get after our QBs.

We ARENT looking to make our offense a pocket passing offense. Its just that in order for us to be dominant, we have to be able to do that when defenses try to take away our rollouts.

Unlike Jake Plummer, not only is Jay able to run, roll out, and pass accurately doing so, but he can ALSO beat you from the pocket.

Just like John Elway.

I think the only place on the line where pass blocking trumps run blocking is at left tackle, since so many teams put their best pass rusher at right defensive end, on the right-handed qb's blind side.

But you want your left tackle to be able to run block also.

We do need Jay to be able to sit comfortably in the pocket and pick teams apart. If we can do that, all other parts of our offense become easier.

turftoad
02-07-2008, 11:33 AM
I didn't realize the suggested rate of evolutionary size increase was 1 to 1.5 pounds per year. Sorry

Sheeeeesh........... I gain about 10lbs every winter. So...... in about 10 years I should be able to compete for the starting LT spot. The upside for that is I'll only be 55yrs old then. :D

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Sheeeeesh........... I gain about 10lbs every winter. So...... in about 10 years I should be able to compete for the starting LT spot. The upside for that is I'll only be 55yrs old then. :D


Only?

BOSSHOGG30
02-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Nobody in the NFL runs even close to that. What a crock of skunk piss.

I think Deon Sanders has the fastest timed forty... wasn't it like 4.19?

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I think Deon Sanders has the fastest timed forty... wasn't it like 4.19?


Something like that............I would like to see the Combine start looking at 10 times.............meaning 10 yard dash..............Alot happens in 10 yards.

Lonestar
02-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Zimmerman and Tony Jones were both around 295.


But that was also 10-15 years ago and the rest of the OLINE was solid.. Huge difference today

topscribe
02-07-2008, 12:01 PM
I think Deon Sanders has the fastest timed forty... wasn't it like 4.19?

Champ said he ran that at one time. And Champ is not given to exaggeration.

And RB Chris Henry's low time was 4.33, which he backed up with a 4.36
and other sub-4.4 runs. Here are just a couple of several references
regarding that:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=14994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_(running_back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_%28running_back))

Dream did his best to ridicule me over on Mania when I said Chris Henry
could do it. He said no way could a 5-11, 230 lb. RB could run a 4.4. After
he was humiliated by Henry's recorded times, then called out by several
others regarding that after all he had said, I don't think he got over that.

Well, Henry and Champ both happen to be in the NFL, don't they?

You're going to need a little sugar with that skunk piss, Dream. :coffee:

Now, :focus:

-----

topscribe
02-07-2008, 12:04 PM
But that was also 10-15 years ago and the rest of the OLINE was solid.. Huge difference today

So you think Zim wouldn't cut it today? JR . . . :tsk:

-----

Lonestar
02-07-2008, 12:07 PM
So you think Zim wouldn't cut it today? JR . . . :tsk:

-----



not on this team with the existing OLINE guys.. with the improvement of size and speed of todays DLine guys.. I think he would be slightly above average in todays environment..

SoCalBronco
02-07-2008, 12:10 PM
I think Deon Sanders has the fastest timed forty... wasn't it like 4.19?
I always thought it was Joey Gallaway that timed fastest every at the combine. Deon definitely figures though.

Watchthemiddle
02-07-2008, 12:11 PM
I think Deon Sanders has the fastest timed forty... wasn't it like 4.19?

Bo Jackson could run a 4.19

Sorry...that was probably off topic.

Actually I think it was a 4.29..anyway fast for a big boy

SoCalBronco
02-07-2008, 12:13 PM
The NFL combine must use some jacked up stopwatches.
From Wikipedia.

Sport's Illustrated's Dr. Z, Paul Zimmerman notes in his book "The Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football", that most football experts agree that the 4.3 second forty is largely a myth. That the fastest college and international sprinters likely run in the 4.4s. But once one guy says he is a 4.3, then everybody claims to have them on their team as not to appear slower, and due to the inaccuracies of hand-timing, many coaches believe they actually have players who run 4.3's, although Zimmerman is doubtful. This thought is born out in an article available on the US Olympic Committee website at http://www.usoc.org/11611_32384.htm entitled "NFL Treats 40-yard Dash Times as Sacred" by Mark Ziegler for the San Diego Union Tribune in 2005. To quote from the article, regarding the day of Ben Johnson's steroid-induced world record run in the hundred meters at the 1988 Seoul Olympics, "Timing officials have since broken down that famed race into 10-meter increments, and Johnson was so preposterously fast that he went through 50 meters in 5.52 seconds and 60 meters in 6.37 -- both under the current world records at those distances. He went through 40 yards that day in 4.38 seconds."


There actually is no single, "official" 40 time at the NFL Combine. National Scouting, which runs the combine, provides three times per run, two fully hand-held and one stopped electronically. Each player may run twice, thereby yielding a potential six times. National Scouting provides all six of these times to NFL teams. The teams then do what they want with those times, or ignore them. Some teams use the best electronic time. Some teams throw out the fastest and slowest and average the rest. Some teams use the best time provided. And some teams use a time provided by their own scout on site."

HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 12:16 PM
But that was also 10-15 years ago and the rest of the OLINE was solid.. Huge difference today


Zimmermen, Shlereth, Nalen, Habibb and T. Jones.................Best line EVER in Bronco history............... I think we sometimes expect too much from our O-line..............We may NEVER have a line like that again............. I really like Kuper.......I think holland did well and I actually think, unlike most of you, that Myers did just fine................Pears is not Zimmerman, but the guy showed up every week and played pretty damn solid for the most part..............Would I like BETTER Offensive linemen? ................Hell yes..............Would I like to use our #1 pick for one? ................No way.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 12:16 PM
not on this team with the existing OLINE guys.. with the improvement of size and speed of todays DLine guys.. I think he would be slightly above average in todays environment..

I disagree. He has proven to be of HOF quality. He was bigger and better than
Lepsis, and Lepsis did just fine before this last year. And nobody, not even
today, has ever been better than the Reggie Whites and Lawrence Taylors of
that day.

Plus, I think I have a higher opinion of this O-line than you do. They were
inconsistent, playing terrible one week and lights out another, but they
were young. They will not be so young this year. I look for them to be
dramatically better this year. And with players, none who have never played
before with the others on theline, and several who had never played their
current positions, it takes a lot of time for an O-line to develop and gel. A
Zimmerman on the line would only have accelerated that progress with his
excellent play and leadership.

-----

BOSSHOGG30
02-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Champ said he ran that at one time. And Champ is not given to exaggeration.

And RB Chris Henry's low time was 4.33, which he backed up with a 4.36
and other sub-4.4 runs. Here are just a couple of several references
regarding that:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=14994
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_(running_back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Henry_%28running_back))

Dream did his best to ridicule me over on Mania when I said Chris Henry
could do it. He said no way could a 5-11, 230 lb. RB could run a 4.4. After
he was humiliated by Henry's recorded times, then called out by several
others regarding that after all he had said, I don't think he got over that.

Well, Henry and Champ both happen to be in the NFL, don't they?

You're going to need a little sugar with that skunk piss, Dream. :coffee:

Now, :focus:

-----

230 pound running backs run 4.4 all the time.... Doesn't mean they will do well in the NFL.

A lot of big guys can run i nthe nfl.....
Look at some guys like Julius Pepper, Vernon Davis, T.J. Duckett, Michael Turner.

They are all super fast considering their size. No one should be shocked if a guy that weighs 230 pounds runs a 4.4.

Lonestar
02-07-2008, 12:27 PM
I disagree. He has proven to be of HOF quality. He was bigger and better than
Lepsis, and Lepsis did just fine before this last year. And nobody, not even
today, has ever been better than the Reggie Whites and Lawrence Taylors of
that day.

Plus, I think I have a higher opinion of this O-line than you do. They were
inconsistent, playing terrible one week and lights out another, but they
were young. They will not be so young this year. I look for them to be
dramatically better this year. And with players, none who have never played
before with the others on theline, and several who had never played their
current positions, it takes a lot of time for an O-line to develop and gel. A
Zimmerman on the line would only have accelerated that progress with his
excellent play and leadership.

-----


Yes he was I repeat WAS a HOF player but todays DLINE types are simply evolving to another level. Lepsis was great for many reasons but will never be considered for the HOF either.. IMHO

Your also correct about this OLINE it may take several years and a couple of QUALITY draft choices to become great again..

lex
02-07-2008, 12:30 PM
Nobody in the NFL runs even close to that. What a crock of skunk piss.

I was being facetious...as in he runs a 3.9 just like Selvin Young runs in the 4.3s.

lex
02-07-2008, 12:41 PM
Comparing 40 times in football to track and field is problematic. They're two entirely different animals, especially back in the day when Bo and Deion ran. Actually, I've read that Bo had as low as a 4.14 on some stopwatches. Last year on NFLN Deion said he ran a 4.19. Ive also heard Deion could run a 4.2X forty while in pads. They say that the way the time it now can add up to .08 seconds.

BTW, Chris Henry's time was posted as a 4.4 even though as you were watching it it showed as a 4.33. But theres really no such thing as an official time according to the combine.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Yes he was I repeat WAS a HOF player but todays DLINE types are simply evolving to another level. Lepsis was great for many reasons but will never be considered for the HOF either.. IMHO

Your also correct about this OLINE it may take several years and a couple of QUALITY draft choices to become great again..

Good as Lepsis was, Zimmerman on his worst day was better than Lepsis was
on his best. Schlereth was better than either Hamilton or Kuper (at this time
for Kuper, who is very promising). Neil was better than Holland. Tony Jones
was emphatically better than Pears. And Nalen was, well, Nalen.

That line would do just fine today, IMO.

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HolyDiver
02-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Good as Lepsis was, Zimmerman on his worst day was better than Lepsis was
on his best. Schlereth was better than either Hamilton or Kuper (at this time
for Kuper, who is very promising). Neil was better than Holland. Tony Jones
was emphatically better than Pears. And Nalen was, well, Nalen.

That line would do just fine today, IMO.

-----

That line.................today? ..............They would dominate.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Comparing 40 times in football to track and field is problematic. They're two entirely different animals, especially back in the day when Bo and Deion ran. Actually, I've read that Bo had as low as a 4.14 on some stopwatches. Last year on NFLN Deion said he ran a 4.19. Ive also heard Deion could run a 4.2X forty while in pads. They say that the way the time it now can add up to .08 seconds.

BTW, Chris Henry's time was posted as a 4.4 even though as you were watching it it showed as a 4.33. But theres really no such thing as an official time according to the combine.

Chris Henry was timed in several different places at several different times.
He played collegiate ball at the University of Arizona in Tucson. I live in
Tucson. I have followed UA sports since 1982 (before that, actually,
because CSU, my favorite I-A school, was in the WAC with UA). That is
how I know what Chris Henry has done. He consistently ran sub-4.4
times.

Now, I'm done with this. Dream went through several pages of this over at
Mania, trying to ridicule me on this, only to end up with egg on his face.

I don't want the same thing to happen to you. :coffee:

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roomemp
02-07-2008, 12:58 PM
Enough reminising about Broncos O Lines of the past. How can you compare Zimmerman to anybody who played tackle for us. He is in the HOF. Its not fair. Our line is not in that bad of shape. We need solid depth especially at LT. Harris should be the starter but we need a veteran behind him just incase. We do not need to spend a 1st rounder at tackle. Thats why we draft Harris in the 3rd. Give the guy a chance. As for Pears, the guy is a gamer. He might not be the best but he shows up every week.

mclark
02-07-2008, 01:09 PM
Zimmerman, today, would dominate like he did for many years in the NFL.

lex
02-07-2008, 01:23 PM
Chris Henry was timed in several different places at several different times.
He played collegiate ball at the University of Arizona in Tucson. I live in
Tucson. I have followed UA sports since 1982 (before that, actually,
because CSU, my favorite I-A school, was in the WAC with UA). That is
how I know what Chris Henry has done. He consistently ran sub-4.4
times.

Now, I'm done with this. Dream went through several pages of this over at
Mania, trying to ridicule me on this, only to end up with egg on his face.

I don't want the same thing to happen to you. :coffee:

-----

For there to be egg on my face, Id have to say something incorrect. And his posted time was a 4.4.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=1186

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070227/A_SPORTS/702270323

http://www.nflanswers.com/article.php?story=20070227123349632

G_Money
02-07-2008, 01:37 PM
The NFL combine must use some jacked up stopwatches.
From Wikipedia.

Sport's Illustrated's Dr. Z, Paul Zimmerman notes in his book "The Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football", that most football experts agree that the 4.3 second forty is largely a myth. That the fastest college and international sprinters likely run in the 4.4s. But once one guy says he is a 4.3, then everybody claims to have them on their team as not to appear slower, and due to the inaccuracies of hand-timing, many coaches believe they actually have players who run 4.3's, although Zimmerman is doubtful. This thought is born out in an article available on the US Olympic Committee website at http://www.usoc.org/11611_32384.htm entitled "NFL Treats 40-yard Dash Times as Sacred" by Mark Ziegler for the San Diego Union Tribune in 2005. To quote from the article, regarding the day of Ben Johnson's steroid-induced world record run in the hundred meters at the 1988 Seoul Olympics, "Timing officials have since broken down that famed race into 10-meter increments, and Johnson was so preposterously fast that he went through 50 meters in 5.52 seconds and 60 meters in 6.37 -- both under the current world records at those distances. He went through 40 yards that day in 4.38 seconds."


There actually is no single, "official" 40 time at the NFL Combine. National Scouting, which runs the combine, provides three times per run, two fully hand-held and one stopped electronically. Each player may run twice, thereby yielding a potential six times. National Scouting provides all six of these times to NFL teams. The teams then do what they want with those times, or ignore them. Some teams use the best electronic time. Some teams throw out the fastest and slowest and average the rest. Some teams use the best time provided. And some teams use a time provided by their own scout on site."

The Combine starts the clock when you start to move. The Olympics start the time when the gun goes off. That's the difference - the .2 seconds it takes the nerve impulse of the sound to hit your brain and for your brain to send the signal to run.

Olympic times and Combine times are different animals.

As for Zimmerman - yes, he would be great now, as he was great then. But the position keeps getting bigger, and there's a reason for that. Bigger men with longer reach and just-as-quick feet can fill the positional needs better.

Size is not everything. But Harris has always played small, while Zimm (like Nalen) always played big. They were stronger, meaner, and dirtier than the other guys, and so size mattered less to those Ring of Famers.

If you're soft (and Harris has a rep as being soft) and injury-prone, then maybe we should hold your size against you as another demerit.

Robert Gallery is huuuuuuge...and soft. Much like George Foster.

I'm more concerned with soft linemen than small ones. I wanted Satele or Khalil in last year's draft, because I wanted a center-in-waiting and neither guy is a cupcake.

I think Harris has cupcake potential. His size is just another mark that can't be placed in his favor. It's not the reason I'm concerned about him, but it doesn't help my opinion of him, because over the next 10 years the "prototype" for the position is only gonna get bigger and freakier, and average now will be small in a few years.

I'm definitely hoping Harris turns out to be a great lineman. But since we need 3 great linemen to add to the OL (with Lepsis gone, Nalen on the way out and his backup Hamilton uncertain, and Pears sucking) Harris turning out or not turning out doesn't affect my drafting of OL in the least.

Myers isn't anything more than a backup. Pears should be a backup.

So we need more starters - period. And since Harris should be able to play LT, RT, or even G if necessary, adding a better OT doesn't negate his potential line contributions.

If we drafted a better WR than Marshall somehow, would Marshall help the team less by being the #2 receiver and being on the right side instead of the left?

Of course not. It would be a happy day to get such a contributor - and that's what I want from our OL decisions this offseason. I'm looking to have a couple of happy days by the end of April.

~G

topscribe
02-07-2008, 01:50 PM
That's my concern about Harris, too, G.

He has all the raw talent in the world, but can he become the smash-mouth
tackle he needs to be in the NFL? That will be the difference between his
success or his bust, IMO.

-----

topscribe
02-07-2008, 01:56 PM
For there to be egg on my face, Id have to say something incorrect. And his posted time was a 4.4.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?Prospect_ID=1186

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070227/A_SPORTS/702270323

http://www.nflanswers.com/article.php?story=20070227123349632

Good documentation.

We're essentially on the same page here.

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BOSSHOGG30
02-07-2008, 01:58 PM
Harris will be fine... he is very young, he has all the skills, he is smart... it will just take a little time.

Like 9798 would say, "just give him time to gel."

mclark
02-07-2008, 02:06 PM
I think G has said a lot here. You can be a bit undersized as an offensive lineman if your are mean and dirty. If Harris was mean like Nalen, I wouldn't be worried about him. Those mean guys don't come around all the time.

Defensive lineman are dirty all the time. You only hear them whining when offensive linemen are at least as dirty as they are.

Buff
02-07-2008, 02:24 PM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/VWBug_girl/fat.jpg

Meet our new DT

I thought we cut Sam Adams... :confused:

G_Money
02-07-2008, 02:59 PM
Harris will be fine... he is very young, he has all the skills, he is smart... it will just take a little time.

Like 9798 would say, "just give him time to gel."

1) Yes, he is smart. He went to ND, that's not exactly a course-load chocked full of basketweaving classes.

2) He's had two back surgeries in two years, and dropped from potentially the 1st to actually the 3rd round because his performance flat-lined after the first one. You can look at that as either a benefit (hey, with a healthy back he's a 1st round talent and the sky's the limit!) or a drawback (so wait, he had a back issue that neutered him, and then once we drafted him he had ANOTHER back surgery?).

Back issues don't normally get better, nor lend themselves to 100% recovery. Once a back issue, always a back issue. I find it to be a huge, huge concern. It can be maintained, but this isn't a case of "staple that PCL back together and keep going."

3) We actually don't know that he has all the skills. Heck, we don't know that Ryan Clady (Who I think is a MUCH better LT prospect than Harris) has "all the skills." He potentially could learn all the required skills. That's different.

Now to be fair, I would have questioned the heck out of the wisdom of converting a TE to LT, but that took a while and Lepsis got to prove himself every step of the way. He started on special teams, won a RT job in training camp a couple of years later, and didn't start at LT until 7 years after we drafted him.

Nobody walked up to him after a year in which he did nothing and said, "Okay kid, the starting LT gig is yours, hope your back is okay and don't screw it up. Cutler needs his spine in one piece and it's all up to you."

If we were bringing in a stud starting LT and letting Harris, Pears and Kuper duke it out to play RT I'd have far fewer concerns. Harris + Pears on the edges as our default has the makings of a season-long disaster.

~G

BOSSHOGG30
02-07-2008, 03:08 PM
I'm not to worried because Denver has always been pretty good with the o-line... I think they do a good job... I was worried last season at RG because we had Holland in there from New Orleans... New Orleans didn't have the best line and Holland couldn't even stay in the starting lineup. But Holland happened to be one of the better offensive linemen we had last season... so my worry's went away.

G_Money
02-07-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm not to worried because Denver has always been pretty good with the o-line... I think they do a good job... I was worried last season at RG because we had Holland in there from New Orleans... New Orleans didn't have the best line and Holland couldn't even stay in the starting lineup. But Holland happened to be one of the better offensive linemen we had last season... so my worry's went away.

1999 - Tony Jones LT, Lepsis RT
2000 - Tony Jones LT, Lepsis RT
2001 - Teague LT, Lepsis RT
2002 - Salaam LT , Lepsis RT
2003 - Salaam LT , Lepsis RT
2004 - Foster RT , Lepsis LT
2005 - Foster RT , Lepsis LT
2006 - Foster RT , Lepsis/Pears LT
2007 - Pears RT , Lepsis LT

How could we tell if we can draft tackles or not?

We didn't draft Tony Jones.

Teague only started for us long enough to get shown out of town.

We picked up a UDFA TE with a blown out knee and made him a T staple for a decade.

Salaam was a stop-gap.

We spent a 1st round pick on a tackle who turned out to be pretty useless as a tackle.

Pears is a decent backup, but is he a starter?

- Lepsis never made a Pro Bowl IIRC. He was the definition of a good, solid contributor.
- Foster was worthless.
- Teague never did what we wanted him to do.
- Pears and Harris are still a prayer.

Add to the the gradual decline of our OL as the studs like Nalen and Lepsis aged, and watching them never be augmented by any other truly great players, and I have my concerns. Our line scheme can be run by less-than-pro-bowl players, but I have to think adding a Pro Bowler or two would be nice.

~G

dogfish
02-07-2008, 04:07 PM
another good post, G. . . . that's been my main concern with harris from day one-- every scouting report i've seen calls him soft. . . NOT exactly what you want in your linemen! it's great for people to say "he has the physical skills, just coach 'im up to play mean," but it rarely works like that. . . if it was that simple, the notre dame coaches would have just done it-- if it was that simple, foster wouldn't have played like a 330 pound sissy. . . . guys like stink and nails didn't need to be TOLD to go out and bury somebody. . . .


of our current OLs, it looks to me like kuper is the only one who really has that nasty edge. . .

WARHORSE
02-07-2008, 04:14 PM
Well, in getting back into this lively discussion, I just wanted to point out that in college, Ryan Harris ran a 4.28 forty consistently. That was when his hair was longer though.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/warhorse001/michaelross.jpg

Charlie Weis timed him himself and turned the papers over to the proper authorities in Denver.

We have ourselves a MONSTER.

Lets all be happy now.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/warhorse001/barneyspank.gif

topscribe
02-07-2008, 04:18 PM
Well, in getting back into this lively discussion, I just wanted to point out that in college, Ryan Harris ran a 4.28 forty consistently. That was when his hair was longer though.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/warhorse001/michaelross.jpg

Charlie Weis timed him himself and turned the papers over to the proper authorities in Denver.

We have ourselves a MONSTER.

Lets all be happy now.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/warhorse001/barneyspank.gif

:jaw: Well, I'll be full of skunk piss!!

-----

bmarsh15
02-07-2008, 04:40 PM
I think if we stay at they 12th pick we should only pick Ryan Clady because of the lack of talent and he would be great in our system protecting Jay for years.

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/44/447184.jpg

lex
02-07-2008, 04:48 PM
I think if we stay at they 12th pick we should only pick Ryan Clady because of the lack of talent and he would be great in our system protecting Jay for years.

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/44/447184.jpg

While I wouldnt complain about Clady or Chris Williams, it seems Shanahan is intent on giving Ryan Harris a shot with Pears at RT too. Maybe a RT in round 2, eh? I wouldnt mind Nicks or Cherilous. I think Nicks might be able to play LT.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-07-2008, 04:52 PM
230 pound running backs run 4.4 all the time.... Doesn't mean they will do well in the NFL.


Which was exactly my point on Broncomania.

Did you know Travis Henry has 4.3 speed as well?

Requiem / The Dagda
02-07-2008, 04:54 PM
:jaw: Well, I'll be full of skunk piss!!

-----

Just like you were when you said Travis Henry ran in the 4.3's as well? Now, now - does this have to be deleted?

Egg on ya face?

Tned
02-07-2008, 05:11 PM
Any chance we can stop the pissing contest and start talking about football again?

Just wondering?

Requiem / The Dagda
02-07-2008, 05:11 PM
Any chance we can stop the pissing contest and start talking about football again?

Just wondering?

You mean about people suggesting Harris would be a good right tackle?

turftoad
02-07-2008, 05:14 PM
I merged the Clady thread with this one.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Just like you were when you said Travis Henry ran in the 4.3's as well? Now, now - does this have to be deleted?

Egg on ya face?

Yes, well I was simply referring to CoachScout, who has Henry's time at 4.39.
Here, take a look, fourth player from the top: http://www.couchscout.com/dnvr.htm .

Guess you'll have to take it up with them.


And now, :focus:

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lex
02-07-2008, 05:24 PM
Yes, well I was simply referring to CoachScout, who has Henry's time at 4.39.
Here, take a look, fourth player from the top: http://www.couchscout.com/dnvr.htm .

Guess you'll have to take it up with them.

-----

http://www.couchscout.com/rbform.htm

Did you input Henry's 40 time yourself?

Tned
02-07-2008, 05:27 PM
Any chance we can stop the pissing contest and start talking about football again?

Just wondering?

Why don't you guys create a "whip it out and measure it" thread, rather than continuing to argue in this thread? Last time I checked it was about left tackles, not which of you is 'right' or can prove the other 'wrong'.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 05:27 PM
http://www.couchscout.com/rbform.htm

Did you input Henry's 40 time yourself?

I'll do this ONE more time: :focus:

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G_Money
02-07-2008, 05:49 PM
I'd just like to see some estimation of Harris's upside.

Let's list his attributes:

Positive:

- Bigger than Lepsis
- Smart player
- moves well
- long arms
- MIGHT be able to play LT at the pro level

Negative:

- still not huge, and tends to drop 20 pounds during the season (was around 275-280 according to some reports after ND season)
- Doesn't play with extreme leverage or strength
- not nasty
- has back issues

You know what that sounds like to me? A work in progress.

He needs to shore up his negative areas. Has he done that?

I don't think anybody can say.

Are we hoping that his upside is to be Lepsis? A good, solid contributor who is a bit under-rated and can help make a great line?

Do we think he can be a smaller Orlando Pace? A purely dominant Tackle, multiple Pro Bowler...?

Is he instead the next Trey Teague, an acceptable lineman who played both Tackle and Center of all things? Jack of all trades, master of none?

Who is Ryan Harris expected to be?

If it's not Orlando Pace, then I don't understand what the hesitation is in going after a better tackle.

If it is Orlando Pace, then I'd like to know at the bottom of which bottle of Gentlemen Jack this opinion was formulated.

Ryan Harris may indeed turn out to be a fine tackle, but if I'd had the chance to get Orlando Pace then I would happily have moved Lepsis over to RT for his entire career.

It's theoretically possible that we could have our pick of the non-Jake-Long OTs in this draft at #12 - and it's a really good tackle draft. When I think of what a Joe-Thomas-caliber LT could mean to this team, it makes me smile.

I'd hate to pass on that quality of a player because "We just couldn't fit him in, what with Harris and Pears already on the roster."

~G

topscribe
02-07-2008, 05:51 PM
I'd just like to see some estimation of Harris's upside.

Let's list his attributes:

Positive:

- Bigger than Lepsis
- Smart player
- moves well
- long arms
- MIGHT be able to play LT at the pro level

Negative:

- still not huge, and tends to drop 20 pounds during the season (was around 275-280 according to some reports after ND season)
- Doesn't play with extreme leverage or strength
- not nasty
- has back issues

You know what that sounds like to me? A work in progress.

He needs to shore up his negative areas. Has he done that?

I don't think anybody can say.

Are we hoping that his upside is to be Lepsis? A good, solid contributor who is a bit under-rated and can help make a great line?

Do we think he can be a smaller Orlando Pace? A purely dominant Tackle, multiple Pro Bowler...?

Is he instead the next Trey Teague, an acceptable lineman who played both Tackle and Center of all things? Jack of all trades, master of none?

Who is Ryan Harris expected to be?

If it's not Orlando Pace, then I don't understand what the hesitation is in going after a better tackle.

If it is Orlando Pace, then I'd like to know at the bottom of which bottle of Gentlemen Jack this opinion was formulated.

Ryan Harris may indeed turn out to be a fine tackle, but if I'd had the chance to get Orlando Pace then I would happily have moved Lepsis over to RT for his entire career.

It's theoretically possible that we could have our pick of the non-Jake-Long OTs in this draft at #12 - and it's a really good tackle draft. When I think of what a Joe-Thomas-caliber LT could mean to this team, it makes me smile.

I'd hate to pass on that quality of a player because "We just couldn't fit him in, what with Harris and Pears already on the roster."

~G

I remember Lepsis' first year at LT. You know where he drew the most criticism?

He was soft.

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G_Money
02-07-2008, 06:04 PM
LT or RT?

His first year as a LT we set a team record for fewest sacks, didn't we? I don't think anybody was calling him soft then.

When he first came in out of college, he WAS soft IIRC. That's not unusual. "Here, badly injured college tight end that we're converting to right tackle, man up and play hard."

But he got it figured out.

Some guys get it, some guys don't. We don't know which one Harris is yet, that's my concern with just handing him the most critical role in Cutler's 2008 success.

~G

turftoad
02-07-2008, 06:11 PM
I'm sure the coach's have seen enough of Harris to know where he'll be. FA and the draft will tell the rest of us what they are thinking.

topscribe
02-07-2008, 06:17 PM
LT or RT?

His first year as a LT we set a team record for fewest sacks, didn't we? I don't think anybody was calling him soft then.

When he first came in out of college, he WAS soft IIRC. That's not unusual. "Here, badly injured college tight end that we're converting to right tackle, man up and play hard."

But he got it figured out.

Some guys get it, some guys don't. We don't know which one Harris is yet, that's my concern with just handing him the most critical role in Cutler's 2008 success.

~G

No, I remember, shortly after he took over, how they were commenting
about how much ground he was giving in pass protection. I recall specifically
in one game where Madden replayed it and pointed it out. Lepsis was doing
well by the end of the year, and the stats are okay, but he was having a
terrible time of it initially.

-----

mclark
02-07-2008, 06:29 PM
Well, in getting back into this lively discussion, I just wanted to point out that in college, Ryan Harris ran a 4.28 forty consistently. That was when his hair was longer though.



Hell, let's play him at running back.

Scarface
02-08-2008, 09:11 AM
LT or RT?

His first year as a LT we set a team record for fewest sacks, didn't we? I don't think anybody was calling him soft then.

When he first came in out of college, he WAS soft IIRC. That's not unusual. "Here, badly injured college tight end that we're converting to right tackle, man up and play hard."

But he got it figured out.

Some guys get it, some guys don't. We don't know which one Harris is yet, that's my concern with just handing him the most critical role in Cutler's 2008 success.

~G

I think he set a record for false starts.

mclark
02-08-2008, 11:36 AM
I think he set a record for false starts.

I thought Carswell had that record. I guess that was false starts per play.

BOSSHOGG30
02-08-2008, 11:46 AM
Pears is only 25 years old guys.... give him some time!

Harris is only 22 years old guys.... give him some time!

Myers is a valuable back up and he is only 26.

Kuper is only 25!

Holland is only 27

We have some very young players, we will be fine... they need experience.

Also, you have to keep in mind that we have shuffled the positions a little on the offensive line. When the guys actually get set at one position then maybe they can become more comfortable.

Lonestar
02-08-2008, 12:34 PM
Pears is only 25 years old guys.... give him some time!

Harris is only 22 years old guys.... give him some time!

Myers is a valuable back up and he is only 26.

Kuper is only 25!

Holland is only 27

We have some very young players, we will be fine... they need experience.

Also, you have to keep in mind that we have shuffled the positions a little on the offensive line. When the guys actually get set at one position then maybe they can become more comfortable.

I think overall they maybe the future of the franchise, I for one think perhaps having a super stud watching Jay blindside could be a really good thing..Afterall he is a bout 5 concussion from a medical retirement as we speak..

We all know that good OLINES must play together for more than a few games before they are good. Great OLINE are usually ones that have the same guys next to them for 5-15 years. No one has to think about what the guy next to them is doing, they KNOW what they will do..

HolyDiver
02-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I think overall they maybe the future of the franchise, I for one think perhaps having a super stud watching Jay blindside could be a really good thing..Afterall he is a bout 5 concussion from a medical retirement as we speak..

We all know that good OLINES must play together for more than a few games before they are good. Great OLINE are usually ones that have the same guys next to them for 5-15 years. No one has to think about what the guy next to them is doing, they KNOW what they will do..

Kind of like the Spatans.

topscribe
02-08-2008, 01:08 PM
Pears is only 25 years old guys.... give him some time!

Harris is only 22 years old guys.... give him some time!

Myers is a valuable back up and he is only 26.

Kuper is only 25!

Holland is only 27

We have some very young players, we will be fine... they need experience.

Also, you have to keep in mind that we have shuffled the positions a little on the offensive line. When the guys actually get set at one position then maybe they can become more comfortable.

I was kind of down on Holland earlier in the season, but, honestly, he has
been on an island out there. An offensive lineman has to have some support
on one side or the other, and Holland essentially had neither, with Pears
learning his position on one side and Myers learning his position on the other.

The line had no chemistry, and it had nothing to do with talent. NONE of
those guys had played with each other at their respective positions ever
before. Three had never been starters at their positions . . . in fact, they
essentially had never played those respective positions before at all. The
ony two on the line who had were Holland, with the aforementioned problem,
and Lepsis, whose injury, coupled with age, finally did him in.

This next year will bring with it a fine line, IMO . . . with one question mark.
With a year together and another preseason behind them, Pears and Holland
will know each other, and so will Myers and Kuper, if they remain where
they were. If not, that means Nalen will be his own nasty self again, and
Hamilton will resume LG, while Kuper takes over at LT. Or maybe Harris will
come out with an extra 10 pounds on him, and a little meaner, to exhibit his
significant upside.

Of course, I have just revealed the question mark: left tackle. But with that
being the only real pressing issue on the O-line, the Broncos, with a whole
offseason to do it, should be able to fix it.

Really, I feel much of the angst over the O-line is unfounded. With a healthy
backfield coming back, an outstanding QB with one more year under his belt,
perhaps the deepest TE corps in the league, and BMarsh, Stokes, and
(hopefully) Javon, I am excited almost to the point of being giddy.

I just hope the defense . . . :pray:

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mclark
02-08-2008, 01:19 PM
Pears is only 25 years old guys.... give him some time!

Harris is only 22 years old guys.... give him some time!

Myers is a valuable back up and he is only 26.

Kuper is only 25!

Holland is only 27

We have some very young players, we will be fine... they need experience.

Also, you have to keep in mind that we have shuffled the positions a little on the offensive line. When the guys actually get set at one position then maybe they can become more comfortable.

There's no guarantee that with experience they are going to be better. LeSeuer, Shoate, and Middlebrooks were all young at one point, lacking experience; and eventually they all got cut.

Alex Gibbs had a way of taking quick, small lineman who were undraftable for most teams and making them a heck of a unit, especially as run-blockers. We don't have Alex Gibbs any longer.

As bad as our defensive line and linebackers played last year, our offensive line, at the end of the season, was just a hearbeat behind them in poor play. What was the basis of our red-zone woes last year? Poor play calling? Small backs? Maybe some of that. But it was really because our offensive line was so weak.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-08-2008, 02:22 PM
Pears absolutely sucks. Primary reason why Daniel Graham didn't do jack in the passing game because he was that punk's training wheels all year long.

Lonestar
02-08-2008, 04:16 PM
There's no guarantee that with experience they are going to be better. LeSeuer, Shoate, and Middlebrooks were all young at one point, lacking experience; and eventually they all got cut.

Alex Gibbs had a way of taking quick, small lineman who were undraftable for most teams and making them a heck of a unit, especially as run-blockers. We don't have Alex Gibbs any longer.

As bad as our defensive line and linebackers played last year, our offensive line, at the end of the season, was just a hearbeat behind them in poor play. What was the basis of our red-zone woes last year? Poor play calling? Small backs? Maybe some of that. But it was really because our offensive line was so weak.

It was all of the above but we have sucked inside the 5 for almost a decade now and that IMO comes from not having the bulk to move beef deep in the red zone..

Plain and simple it is better to be inside the 20, but outside the five because of goal line defenses are almost impossible for our lightweights to move..

Maybe Our OLINE should be called the piglets as a total opposite to the HOGGS..

topscribe
02-08-2008, 04:20 PM
It was all of the above but we have sucked inside the 5 for almost a decade now and that IMO comes from not having the bulk to move beef deep in the red zone..

Plain and simple it is better to be inside the 20, but outside the five because of goal line defenses are almost impossible for our lightweights to move..

Maybe Our OLINE should be called the piglets as a total opposite to the HOGGS..

ROTF!! :pound:

Well, Myers is bigger, and Holland is huge. Kuper is bigger, and he is immensely
strong . . . Nalen-type strong. If Kuper or Harris step into LT, either is bigger
than what the Broncos had before.

So they seem . . . well, bigger.

-----

Lonestar
02-08-2008, 04:25 PM
ROTF!! :pound:

Well, Myers is bigger, and Holland is huge. Kuper is bigger, and he is immensely
strong . . . Nalen-type strong. If Kuper or Harris step into LT, either is bigger
than what the Broncos had before.

So they seem . . . well, bigger.

-----



they are not huge and that is what you need deep in the red zone..

I'm not advocating replacing them all with 325+ pounders just that mikey does not try open holes for running backs with the piglets. Needs to adjust the play calling down there.. Or go jumbo with some extra DL guys as blocking blobs..

topscribe
02-08-2008, 04:32 PM
they are not huge and that is what you need deep in the red zone..

I'm not advocating replacing them all with 325+ pounders just that mikey does not try open holes for running backs with the piglets. Needs to adjust the play calling down there.. Or go jumbo with some extra DL guys as blocking blobs..

Well, the DL folks aren't that much bigger, if at all.

But Holland is 325, Myers is 300 (which is pretty good for a center), Kuper is
about 305 (but plays like 320). I would like to see Harris with another 10 lbs.
or so on his now 305 frame if he's going to be at LT. It would also be nice to
see Pears with another 5 or 10 lbs. But they are getting to where they are
pretty decent.

I believe the biggest difference could be a good, Griffith-type FB. Maybe
Graham could shift over to FB on short yardage situations? I dunno . . .

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
02-08-2008, 04:35 PM
Weight isn't the be all end all when it comes to evaluating the success of lineman. There are certainly 295 pound tackles who are stronger at the POA than someone who is 320 pounds. It's about getting the right player and prioritizing your needs. Denver hasn't placed priority on getting a top flight offensive lineman since they drafted Harris in the third round last year; and he was only a "good" prospect, but not "great." Too much stock is put into the size of the players we have, and not their skill.

topscribe
02-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Actually, I think that's pretty elementary to everybody here . . .

-----

Requiem / The Dagda
02-08-2008, 04:44 PM
It certainly doesn't seem like it, since people believe that the bigger we get - the better we will be; which isn't necessarily true. Let's emphasize the skill set that Harris has, along with other potential options rather than what they tip the scale at. We use a scheme that emphasizes finesse offensive lineman rather than big chubs; so all those praying for the beef are probably just setting themselves up for disappointment. Denver's going to draft and acquire players who have the athleticism and finesse necessary to succeed as zone blockers, they aren't going to draft 325 slow footed monsters who are slow to get to the next level.

Then again, we can get bigger lineman who are also excellent fits for this blocking scheme, it's just a matter of who is there and how well the team sees them fit.

Slick
02-08-2008, 04:51 PM
I'm advocating more depth at the tackle position, and I'm a little disappointed we let Eslinger get away. He must not have impressed our former LB acting as an o line coach.

I remember the Arron Gibsons of the world, 6'8" 400+, and couldn't block his way out of a paper bag.

G_Money
02-08-2008, 05:33 PM
I'm advocating more depth at the tackle position, and I'm a little disappointed we let Eslinger get away. He must not have impressed our former LB acting as an o line coach.

I remember the Arron Gibsons of the world, 6'8" 400+, and couldn't block his way out of a paper bag.

Eslinger couldn't move anybody. He and Myers have the same problem, cept he might be worse than Myers.

I was happy to get Eslinger where we drafted him (it's always good to be able to get the best college center with a late-round pick) but being a great college center doesn't necessarily make him a great pro center.

I'm hoping for Lichtensteiger this year, a nasty center in the Nalen mold (but a bit bigger) who packs a punch in the run game. I still think he needs a bit of footwork improvement to succeed in our system, but he has the right attitude and leverage IMO to help our goal-line problem. We'll see.

~G

Slick
02-08-2008, 05:54 PM
Eslinger couldn't move anybody. He and Myers have the same problem, cept he might be worse than Myers.

I was happy to get Eslinger where we drafted him (it's always good to be able to get the best college center with a late-round pick) but being a great college center doesn't necessarily make him a great pro center.

I'm hoping for Lichtensteiger this year, a nasty center in the Nalen mold (but a bit bigger) who packs a punch in the run game. I still think he needs a bit of footwork improvement to succeed in our system, but he has the right attitude and leverage IMO to help our goal-line problem. We'll see.

~G

Myers is versatile, I hope we re-sign him. I figured there was a reason we didn't protect Eslinger, and I agree I thought it was a great value pick, oh well.

I'm not familiar with Lichtenstiger, but if he comes with a Conrad Dobler-esc. type of attitude, heck yes.

One of the main reasons I'm high on Schmitt is not so much his measurables, it's that attitude and leverage you're describing. I want those type of players protecting our QB, and busting heads in the red zone.

Skinny
02-08-2008, 06:38 PM
For Eslinger to reach his full potential, the best thing possible that could have happened for him happened ... Kubs hired Gibbs. The 'Coaching' and 'System' are now in place for him to flourish which i fully expect him to do. The only thing that can stop him now is injuries or being a slacker ...

I hate he got away but it was the best thing that could have happened for Greg ... the sky's the limit now ...

Lonestar
02-08-2008, 11:26 PM
Bigger is not better, merely able to move the beef down inside the 5 where finesse no longer works like it did on the 45 yard line..

No one has to mu knowledge advocated getting 325+ Olinemen across the board..

Scarface
02-09-2008, 01:18 AM
Eslinger couldn't move anybody. He and Myers have the same problem, cept he might be worse than Myers.

I was happy to get Eslinger where we drafted him (it's always good to be able to get the best college center with a late-round pick) but being a great college center doesn't necessarily make him a great pro center.

I'm hoping for Lichtensteiger this year, a nasty center in the Nalen mold (but a bit bigger) who packs a punch in the run game. I still think he needs a bit of footwork improvement to succeed in our system, but he has the right attitude and leverage IMO to help our goal-line problem. We'll see.

~G

I always thought Eslinger was too small and unathletic. Mangold and Chester were superior prospects. Mangold especially. He was the best center and probably the best o-lineman in that draft.

Npba900
02-09-2008, 01:08 PM
I was kind of down on Holland earlier in the season, but, honestly, he has
been on an island out there. An offensive lineman has to have some support
on one side or the other, and Holland essentially had neither, with Pears
learning his position on one side and Myers learning his position on the other.

The line had no chemistry, and it had nothing to do with talent. NONE of
those guys had played with each other at their respective positions ever
before. Three had never been starters at their positions . . . in fact, they
essentially had never played those respective positions before at all. The
ony two on the line who had were Holland, with the aforementioned problem,
and Lepsis, whose injury, coupled with age, finally did him in.

This next year will bring with it a fine line, IMO . . . with one question mark.
With a year together and another preseason behind them, Pears and Holland
will know each other, and so will Myers and Kuper, if they remain where
they were. If not, that means Nalen will be his own nasty self again, and
Hamilton will resume LG, while Kuper takes over at LT. Or maybe Harris will
come out with an extra 10 pounds on him, and a little meaner, to exhibit his
significant upside.

Of course, I have just revealed the question mark: left tackle. But with that
being the only real pressing issue on the O-line, the Broncos, with a whole
offseason to do it, should be able to fix it.

Really, I feel much of the angst over the O-line is unfounded. With a healthy
backfield coming back, an outstanding QB with one more year under his belt,
perhaps the deepest TE corps in the league, and BMarsh, Stokes, and
(hopefully) Javon, I am excited almost to the point of being giddy.

I just hope the defense . . . :pray:

-----

Good analysis. I think b/c our RB's are injury prone at best, Denver should try and get a Rashard Mendenhall type back in the 2nd round as well as try and draft one of the heavier athletic FB's in the 4th round. Denver can ill-afford to keep the same attitude of believing they can just plug any 2nd day pick RB into our offense and expect to get to the SB. Denver needs to find a RB in this years draft thats as close to a Portis or TD type RB as possible.

A heavier athletic FB would really help as a lead blocker inside the Red Zone, as well as provide that extra push in the 4th Qtr to run out the clock to protect any leads Denver may have. Mike Shanahan should have his eye on the following FB's in the up coming draft:

Owen Schmitt
Class: Sr.
Hometown: Fairfax, Va.
Height: 6-3
Weight: 260
Position: FB

Physical fullback who ranks among the nation’s best ... powerful blocker with tremendous ball skills ... tough guy who loves to practice and work out ... spent some time this spring at tight end and adjusted well to blocking up front ... makes the difficult catch look easy ... a great team leader

Jehuu Caulcrick
Born: August 6, 1983
Hometown: , Liberia
Height: 6-0
Weight: 255 lbs. Age: 24
Pos: RB
Class: Senior

Jerome Bettis-type running back figures to earn his share of carries in 2007 . ranked as the nation's third-best fullback by Phil Steele's College Football Preview preseason honorable mention All-America selection by Street & Smith's . . . has deceptive speed for a back his size . . . three-year letterman has rushed for 1,523 career yards (4.9 avg.) and 18 TDs .
2007 STATS:
ATT 222 | YDS 872 | TD 21

Mike Cox

Height / Weight:
6-1 / 260
Position:
Fullback
Birthdate:
07/11/1985

AT GEORGIA TECH: One of the best-blocking backs in college football... a major reason teammate Tashard Choice was able to accumulate 1,000 yards rushing in both 2006 and 2007... a big, bruising fullback... has shown the ability to catch passes out of the backfield... known by most as "Bull".

SmilinAssasSin27
02-09-2008, 01:14 PM
I liked Eslinger a lot coming out. I thought his superior zone blocking at Minnesota would translate well for us...guess I was a bit off on that one.

turftoad
02-09-2008, 01:31 PM
I always thought Eslinger was too small and unathletic. Mangold and Chester were superior prospects. Mangold especially. He was the best center and probably the best o-lineman in that draft.

I agree. He was also a first rounder Scar.

WARHORSE
02-09-2008, 03:18 PM
Good analysis. I think b/c our RB's are injury prone at best, Denver should try and get a Rashard Mendenhall type back in the 2nd round as well as try and draft one of the heavier athletic FB's in the 4th round. Denver can ill-afford to keep the same attitude of believing they can just plug any 2nd day pick RB into our offense and expect to get to the SB. Denver needs to find a RB in this years draft thats as close to a Portis or TD type RB as possible.




Mendenhall will not be there for us in the second round.

BOSSHOGG30
02-09-2008, 04:06 PM
Eslinger couldn't move anybody. He and Myers have the same problem, cept he might be worse than Myers.

I was happy to get Eslinger where we drafted him (it's always good to be able to get the best college center with a late-round pick) but being a great college center doesn't necessarily make him a great pro center.

I'm hoping for Lichtensteiger this year, a nasty center in the Nalen mold (but a bit bigger) who packs a punch in the run game. I still think he needs a bit of footwork improvement to succeed in our system, but he has the right attitude and leverage IMO to help our goal-line problem. We'll see.

~G

I was really impressed with Lichtensteiger... he was one of the better looking prospects at the Senior Bowl. He needs some work, but give him a year or two to develop and he will be one heck of a center.

Simple Jaded
02-09-2008, 07:01 PM
That line.................today? ..............They would dominate.

That's the point in all of this, Denver simply cannot find small lineman that can perform at that level. The players today that can perform at that level all seem to have more size, but the size of these players is secondary to their ability.

Yet they keep trying find the same type of player, drafting undersized 7th round scrub after undersized 7th round scrub. And when that fails they scour the street for Cubic Zirconia's in the Rough or they add a few pounds to a TE and move him inside.

While I pray for a new OL every single year at this time, I think all this discussion about drafting Clady/Williams with the 12th pick is wishful thinking......Denver has their 2008 Offensive Line in place, imo.

I think they're more than content to go into the future protecting their franchise QB with Harris, Hamilton, Nalen, Holland and Pears. In fact, I wouldn't doubt if they are convinced this group is every bit as capable as the SB lines.

I think that's because the Broncos are convinced that the "System" is the real talent, not the lineman, not the RB. They're convinced that they can continue to draft late round talent and put up 2000 yards rushing.

The problem is, they're right!

It's too damn bad that meaningless rushing stats just aren't nearly enough to get it done these days.

If you never changes the way you do things, you can never expect different results. So if Denver wants to improve on the whopping 10 rushing TD's they had last year, they better get to work on reinventing the playcalling (or avoid the redzone all together).

Cause this group of stiffs isn't any better than last years......

Lonestar
02-09-2008, 07:39 PM
That's the point in all of this, Denver simply cannot find small lineman that can perform at that level. The players today that can perform at that level all seem to have more size, but the size of these players is secondary to their ability.

Yet they keep trying find the same type of player, drafting undersized 7th round scrub after undersized 7th round scrub. And when that fails they scour the street for Cubic Zirconia's in the Rough or they add a few pounds to a TE and move him inside.

While I pray for a new OL every single year at this time, I think all this discussion about drafting Clady/Williams with the 12th pick is wishful thinking......Denver has their 2008 Offensive Line in place, imo.

I think they're more than content to go into the future protecting their franchise QB with Harris, Hamilton, Nalen, Holland and Pears. In fact, I wouldn't doubt if they are convinced this group is every bit as capable as the SB lines.

I think that's because the Broncos are convinced that the "System" is the real talent, not the lineman, not the RB. They're convinced that they can continue to draft late round talent and put up 2000 yards rushing.

The problem is, they're right!

It's too damn bad that meaningless rushing stats just aren't nearly enough to get it done these days.

If you never changes the way you do things, you can never expect different results. So if Denver wants to improve on the whopping 10 rushing TD's they had last year, they better get to work on reinventing the playcalling (or avoid the redzone all together).

Cause this group of stiffs isn't any better than last years......


I fear your correct on several fronts.. They (mikey) think their stuff does not stink.

They have a great rushing attack between the 20's and therefore are OK with it.. they can always point to the top 5 yardage and say see were good at it we have lead the league in rushing overall since 1912 and there fore we know what we are doing..

With this group or any others they will not be able to consistently run inside the 5, UNTIL they beef it up a bit about 10 pounds per player except Holland. Who probably needs to lose about 5-8 pounds of tummy..

Scarface
02-09-2008, 09:29 PM
Mendenhall will not be there for us in the second round.

Not a snowballs chance in hell.

lex
02-10-2008, 10:54 AM
Good analysis. I think b/c our RB's are injury prone at best, Denver should try and get a Rashard Mendenhall type back in the 2nd round as well as try and draft one of the heavier athletic FB's in the 4th round. Denver can ill-afford to keep the same attitude of believing they can just plug any 2nd day pick RB into our offense and expect to get to the SB. Denver needs to find a RB in this years draft thats as close to a Portis or TD type RB as possible.

A heavier athletic FB would really help as a lead blocker inside the Red Zone, as well as provide that extra push in the 4th Qtr to run out the clock to protect any leads Denver may have. Mike Shanahan should have his eye on the following FB's in the up coming draft:

Owen Schmitt
Class: Sr.
Hometown: Fairfax, Va.
Height: 6-3
Weight: 260
Position: FB

Physical fullback who ranks among the nation’s best ... powerful blocker with tremendous ball skills ... tough guy who loves to practice and work out ... spent some time this spring at tight end and adjusted well to blocking up front ... makes the difficult catch look easy ... a great team leader

Jehuu Caulcrick
Born: August 6, 1983
Hometown: , Liberia
Height: 6-0
Weight: 255 lbs. Age: 24
Pos: RB
Class: Senior

Jerome Bettis-type running back figures to earn his share of carries in 2007 . ranked as the nation's third-best fullback by Phil Steele's College Football Preview preseason honorable mention All-America selection by Street & Smith's . . . has deceptive speed for a back his size . . . three-year letterman has rushed for 1,523 career yards (4.9 avg.) and 18 TDs .
2007 STATS:
ATT 222 | YDS 872 | TD 21

Mike Cox

Height / Weight:
6-1 / 260
Position:
Fullback
Birthdate:
07/11/1985

AT GEORGIA TECH: One of the best-blocking backs in college football... a major reason teammate Tashard Choice was able to accumulate 1,000 yards rushing in both 2006 and 2007... a big, bruising fullback... has shown the ability to catch passes out of the backfield... known by most as "Bull".


Mendenhall will not be there for us in the second round.

Yeah, no kidding. Mayock actually has Mendenhall as the top ranked RB.

PatricktheDookie
02-10-2008, 10:22 PM
You don't need to have big offensive linemen to be effective inside the 20s.

You need to have good offensive linemen, which may or may not be big.

nevcraw
02-10-2008, 10:32 PM
I always thought Eslinger was too small and unathletic. .


Tell that to Jeff Saturday.

Lonestar
02-10-2008, 11:15 PM
You don't need to have big offensive linemen to be effective inside the 20s.

You need to have good offensive linemen, which may or may not be big.

Your correct to a degree, but we have neither as we speak..

We need to get bigger inside the 5.. Once you are down there the field shrinks up to next to nothing.. The deepest anyone has to play is 2 yards off the LOS, if that... Everyone is next to the LOS opposed to outside the red zone where a normal 5-15 yard drop for a safety or CB is the norm. Instead of defending thirty yards deep they are defending 15 yards of depth.

The ZBS is finesse at its best inside the 5 you need mean, nasty and brute strength to run the ball consistently.. Something we have not been able to do for almost a decade..

broncofanatic1987
02-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by PatricktheDookie
You don't need to have big offensive linemen to be effective inside the 20s.

You need to have good offensive linemen, which may or may not be big.

This is true. But, when you're relying solely on second day draft picks and undrafted players, what are the chances of you having a good offensive line that will get the job done inside the 20s? Even the Patsies have two first day picks, including a first rounder.

Get the talent on the line and you improve your chances for success. They did good by getting Harris, but it can't stop there.

Scarface
02-11-2008, 11:30 PM
Tell that to Jeff Saturday.

Okay, but I'd be telling that to a far superior player than Greg Eslinger.

WARHORSE
02-12-2008, 01:53 AM
Okay, but I'd be telling that to a far superior player than Greg Eslinger.

Eslinger needs strength. Thats what set guys like Schlereth apart. You can be light and athletic, and use technique.......that will get you far. But when it comes to goaline situations, its a little harder to be effective at it. The light, athletic guys that are, are very strong............like Nails.

Superchop 7
02-12-2008, 10:46 PM
The first question someone will ask (when they see him play) is "what is that tattoo on his arm ???

Answer: water. I will let him give the description of what it means somewhere down the road, but, it's very poignant. Smart kid.

YoungMoneyMay
02-14-2008, 05:37 AM
I think we s hould take Clady out of Boise State. Ryan Harris would probably be better off at RT. Then we would have two great tackles.

Joel
02-14-2008, 10:04 AM
I think we s hould take Clady out of Boise State. Ryan Harris would probably be better off at RT. Then we would have two great tackles.
Then we would have a great RT sitting on the bench (Erik Pears) while a highly touted rookie and an untested sophomore start. No thanks. I'd rather put Pears back at LT, or one of the Chrisses, than start a rookie protecting our QB of the next decades blindside. At least then we have guys with experience against folks like Strahan instead of experience against Miami of Ohio. Which brings me to my other point: All playing for Notre Dame says to me is that a guy's probably overrated (see: The Rocket et alia).

mclark
02-14-2008, 11:32 AM
Then we would have a great RT sitting on the bench (Erik Pears) while a highly touted rookie and an untested sophomore start. No thanks. I'd rather put Pears back at LT, or one of the Chrisses, than start a rookie protecting our QB of the next decades blindside. At least then we have guys with experience against folks like Strahan instead of experience against Miami of Ohio. Which brings me to my other point: All playing for Notre Dame says to me is that a guy's probably overrated (see: The Rocket et alia).

"Great RT" sitting on the bench? Is Erik Pears 'great'? In my mind, Erik Pears is a backup quality lineman who is versatile, can play either tackle spots or even guard. But I don't think he's 'great'. Our offensive line at the end of this season was in the shambles. And Lepsis wasn't the worst. But he was so embarassed, he retired. We have to address OT in free agency and/or in the draft.

BOSSHOGG30
02-14-2008, 11:43 AM
"Great RT" sitting on the bench? Is Erik Pears 'great'? In my mind, Erik Pears is a backup quality lineman who is versatile, can play either tackle spots or even guard. But I don't think he's 'great'. Our offensive line at the end of this season was in the shambles. And Lepsis wasn't the worst. But he was so embarassed, he retired. We have to address OT in free agency and/or in the draft.

or just relax and let the really young guys actually develop instead of freaking out. it would also help if they could actually stay at one position instead of moving around all the time. Bringing back key vets like Nalen and Hamilton are also huge.

Will someone do the math for me and let me know what the average age of Harris, Pears, Myers and Kuper is please

Joel
02-14-2008, 12:27 PM
"Great RT" sitting on the bench? Is Erik Pears 'great'? In my mind, Erik Pears is a backup quality lineman who is versatile, can play either tackle spots or even guard. But I don't think he's 'great'. Our offensive line at the end of this season was in the shambles. And Lepsis wasn't the worst. But he was so embarassed, he retired. We have to address OT in free agency and/or in the draft.
I think his knee and our 7-9 record had more to do with it than embarrassment, and the latter had more to do with giving up 100+ yards to people like Chokeland than our OFFENSIVE line play. But I'll reiterate some old points; our line consisted of:

A third year RT who started at LT most of last year,
A RG who was in NO last year,
A Pro Bowl center
A second year LG in his first starts and
A Pro Bowl caliber LT coming off major surgery following a season ending injury.

Oh, and a completely new backfield. When you figure all that in I think they did pretty well, and as BOSSHOGG says, assuming we get Nalen and Hamilton back and don't play Musical Linemen again next year, our situation isn't nearly as dire as some would paint it. We obviously need a quality LT, because it's the QBs blindside and faces the best speed rushers, but I'd feel better about Pears going back there than any rookie doing it. At least Pears knows what to expect and has another year of experience; the real downside I see there is it would involve moving linemen around s'more, which I don't want to do, but at this point that's going to happen to some extent regardless because Lepsis won't be starting. He's a good RT who has the potential to be great, IMHO, and when Lepsis got hurt he was an adequate LT, particularly for a second year player who'd never started ANYWHERE in the Pros. I think he learned a LOT from being thrown to the wolves in '06, and while he blew some plays, he'll be a much better tackle down the road as a result. You're entitled to think some guy from OU or Miami will be better come September, but I must respectfully disagree.

BOSSHOGG30
02-14-2008, 01:10 PM
You don't need to have big offensive linemen to be effective inside the 20s.

You need to have good offensive linemen, which may or may not be big.

Exactly, but you do need a good run blocking full back and a runningback with a nose for the end zone.

mclark
02-14-2008, 01:51 PM
or just relax and let the really young guys actually develop instead of freaking out. it would also help if they could actually stay at one position instead of moving around all the time. Bringing back key vets like Nalen and Hamilton are also huge.

Will someone do the math for me and let me know what the average age of Harris, Pears, Myers and Kuper is please

Sometimes relaxing and letting things unfold is good; and sometimes not. Pears wasn't drafted, he was so well thought of. So assuming he is going to get better with age may not be the answer. (He may or may not be another Lepsis.) Pears got manhandled quite often at the end of this season. He looked tired, overmatched at times.

Myers was badly overpowered at center. He may improve with time but he may not.

Nalen and Hamilton are keys on the inside. Kuper and Holland look like keepers to me. I'm not sold on Pears and I'm a bit perplexed as to why Harris got so little playing time this year after we were out of the race. If he is really the tackle of the future, why did he spend so much time on the bench when we were floundering?

I think we can be ok on the offensive line if all of our players come together without a glitch. I don't think we'll be a GREAT offensive line with these tackles. I'd like us to have a GREAT offensive line.

mclark
02-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I think his knee and our 7-9 record had more to do with it than embarrassment, and the latter had more to do with giving up 100+ yards to people like Chokeland than our OFFENSIVE line play. But I'll reiterate some old points; our line consisted of:

A third year RT who started at LT most of last year,
A RG who was in NO last year,
A Pro Bowl center
A second year LG in his first starts and
A Pro Bowl caliber LT coming off major surgery following a season ending injury.

Oh, and a completely new backfield. When you figure all that in I think they did pretty well, and as BOSSHOGG says, assuming we get Nalen and Hamilton back and don't play Musical Linemen again next year, our situation isn't nearly as dire as some would paint it. We obviously need a quality LT, because it's the QBs blindside and faces the best speed rushers, but I'd feel better about Pears going back there than any rookie doing it. At least Pears knows what to expect and has another year of experience; the real downside I see there is it would involve moving linemen around s'more, which I don't want to do, but at this point that's going to happen to some extent regardless because Lepsis won't be starting. He's a good RT who has the potential to be great, IMHO, and when Lepsis got hurt he was an adequate LT, particularly for a second year player who'd never started ANYWHERE in the Pros. I think he learned a LOT from being thrown to the wolves in '06, and while he blew some plays, he'll be a much better tackle down the road as a result. You're entitled to think some guy from OU or Miami will be better come September, but I must respectfully disagree.

My ideal picture would be signing Jordan Gross to play right tackle and drafting Clady for left tackle.

Injuries really hurt our offensive line this year. But we couldn't run consitently at the end of the season and we couldn't protect Cutler consistently. And, once we hit the Red Zone, our line moved steadily backward.

As I said in an earlier post, it would be nice to have a GREAT offensive line. It would be nice to let Cutler sit in the pocket and have time to pick the defense apart.

Also, Nalen is a tough old man coming off a major injury. At some point he won't be able to come back. And Hamilton is a question mark because he was a psychotic amnesiac for about 3 months last year after a concussion demolished his personality. If those 2 guys don't make it back, are you still comfortable with our offensive line?

I don't want anyone from OU or Miami in the offensive line (I'm not crazy about having Myers in our offensive line either, even though he did play at Miami).

turftoad
02-14-2008, 01:59 PM
My ideal picture would be signing Jordan Gross to play right tackle and drafting Clady for left tackle.

Injuries really hurt our offensive line this year. But we couldn't run consitently at the end of the season and we couldn't protect Cutler consistently.

As I said in an earlier post, it would be nice to have a GREAT offensive line. It would be nice to let Cutler sick in the pocket and have time to pick the defense apart.

I don't want anyone from OU or Miami in the offensive line (I'm not crazy about having Myers in our offensive line either).

Looks like Gross is going to be tagged.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-14-2008, 02:03 PM
Why would Harris be better at right tackle? He's a finesse pass blocker. He's not a mauler or a good run blocker. He's a LT or a LG; pick your poison.

mclark
02-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Looks like Gross is going to be tagged.

We'll know by 21 February. ("Ideals" rarely work out.)

Gross to Get Slapped with the Franchise Tag?


It appears that the Panthers Jordan Gross is going to get tagged with the Frachise Player Tag according to Carolina Growl. GM Marty Hurney didn’t say for 100 percent that Gross would get the tag, but did say on Wednesday “It’s a possibility. But I don’t want to say yes at this point. It’s something we haven’t decided.” If the Panthers do put the tag on the offensive tackle, he would be slated to make $7.455 million this season, the average salary cap figure of the top five players at his position.

The Panthers and Gross have talked about a long-term deal, but so far, no conclusion has been reached. They can keep talking, but Carolina must come to a decision by February 21st, or 8 days later he will hit the open market, where there is a need for a big-time tackle on many teams like him. The site says that Gross is looking for a deal of about $7 mil per season, with more than $18 mil in guaranteed money.

One thing you can say about Gross, he’s been as durable as any player in the league over the past five seasons, as he has not missed a start. He is known throughout the league as a solid run and pass blocker, and has lived up to his number one draft pick out of Utah.

Skinny
02-14-2008, 10:43 PM
I'd rather put Pears back at LT, or one of the Chrisses, than start a rookie protecting our QB of the next decades blindside. At least then we have guys with experience against folks like Strahan instead of experience against Miami of Ohio. Which brings me to my other point: All playing for Notre Dame says to me is that a guy's probably overrated (see: The Rocket et alia).If whatever Mikey & Co. do fails through-out the Season at LT, this may just happen. Whether it be Harris, Kuper, a FA, or a Draft choice that is unable to get the job done, they can always slide Pears back to that side ...

dogfish
02-14-2008, 10:45 PM
If whatever Mikey & Co. do fails through-out the Season at LT, this may just happen. Whether it be Harris, Kuper, a FA, or a Draft choice that is unable to get the job done, they can always slide Pears back to that side ...

if pears ends up protecting cutler's blind side again, bowlen needs to run shanahan out of town. . . .

Requiem / The Dagda
02-14-2008, 10:46 PM
Erik Pears should be a reserve tackle only. That guy went undrafted for a reason.

Skinny
02-14-2008, 10:47 PM
I think the situation would have to be pretty bad for that to happen df ... worst case scenerio ...

Skinny
02-14-2008, 11:07 PM
Erik Pears should be a reserve tackle only. That guy went undrafted for a reason.I agree with you Pears should only be a reserve OT, but remember, Lepsis was also undrafted, so that really has nothing to do with it ... as long as you have good Coaching.

And we don't have that kind of Coaching ...

dogfish
02-14-2008, 11:10 PM
I think the situation would have to be pretty bad for that to happen df ... worst case scenerio ...

if we're down to the third or fourth guy on the depth chart that's certainly understandable-- no team in the league runs that deep with quality left tackles. . . i'm just saying that if a limited athlete who doesn't have the balance or explosive first step to handle speed off the edge is our option 1B behind a completely unproven guy with a bad back at the position most entrusted with protecting the health of our franchise player, then it's time to seriously re-evaluate the way this team is being built. . . . hell, i don't like pears starting on the right side all that much, let alone the left side. . .

Skinny
02-14-2008, 11:32 PM
i'm just saying that if a limited athlete who doesn't have the balance or explosive first step to handle speed off the edge is our option 1B behind a completely unproven guy with a bad back at the position most entrusted with protecting the health of our franchise player, then it's time to seriously re-evaluate the way this team is being built. . . . hell, i don't like pears starting on the right side all that much, let alone the left side. . .Oh i hear ya, if it was up to me ... he'd be in a reserve role.

lol, but i'm not the one who put Pears there the Season before last when Lepsis went down ... Mikey/Dennison did. And if things bottom out again, who's to say they don't go right back to Pears again ya know ...

I don't want him at LT ... but that's not to say Mikey/Dennison does'nt if all else fails.

I've been wanting a real O-line Coach for years ...