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View Full Version : How Essential is the D-Line?



DenBronx
02-04-2008, 01:34 AM
The Patriots had imo the best offense in history, only to lose to a 14 point under dog. This game goes to show you that defense wins championships and a complete team starts with a complete front 4. Strahan and company were incredibly dominant and threw Brady around like a rag doll the whole game. Brady was knocked down over 18 times and sacked 4 times. Bronco fans, it is essential to have a dominant D-line. We can have all the superstar CB's, LB's and Safeties in the world but if we don't plug in some monsters at DT and some hungry DE's then I think were going to continue being on the outside looking in.

Watchthemiddle
02-04-2008, 02:21 AM
Its a must.

sneakers
02-04-2008, 02:24 AM
It makes your cornerbacks look like superstars....ask Deltha O'neil.

(didn't he have 10 interceptions the same year we had Trevor Pryce and that DE Barry? who went on to the cardinals?)

Stargazer
02-04-2008, 02:25 AM
The Patriots had imo the best offense in history, only to lose to a 14 point under dog. This game goes to show you that defense wins championships and a complete team starts with a complete front 4. Strahan and company were incredibly dominant and threw Brady around like a rag doll the whole game. Brady was knocked down over 18 times and sacked 4 times. Bronco fans, it is essential to have a dominant D-line. We can have all the superstar CB's, LB's and Safeties in the world but if we don't plug in some monsters at DT and some hungry DE's then I think were going to continue being on the outside looking in.

Denver's front four sucks.:mad: Will we see improvement?

gobroncsnv
02-04-2008, 08:01 AM
Especially the Pats' last drive... NO time for little Tommy to throw. They wiped the smile right off his face. Those guys were the MVP of the game. Gotta win at the LOS, or not much else matters. The Giants know how to put their money in the right places. Is this a lesson we can learn???

It makes Brady have to trade in his super model for Ugly Betty.

MHCBill
02-04-2008, 08:30 AM
The Patriots had imo the best offense in history, only to lose to a 14 point under dog. This game goes to show you that defense wins championships and a complete team starts with a complete front 4. Strahan and company were incredibly dominant and threw Brady around like a rag doll the whole game. Brady was knocked down over 18 times and sacked 4 times. Bronco fans, it is essential to have a dominant D-line. We can have all the superstar CB's, LB's and Safeties in the world but if we don't plug in some monsters at DT and some hungry DE's then I think were going to continue being on the outside looking in.Any other posts that don't agree and fully understand this concept are WRONG!

If anyone who watched this Super Bowl doesn't get it... defense starts up front with pressure on the QB. If you don't get it you'll never have a clue.

Including the Broncos brass.

nevcraw
02-04-2008, 09:24 AM
The other thing that the Giants showed is you build from the draft and augment with 1-2players who fit the scheme.
Notice how many rookies on the giants contributed?
I kept thinking about the the Al Wilson trade to NY. The rumor was Justin Tuck was part of it. He is solid.
Also - notice how much pressure they got from the middle. Fixing our D line is paramount.

Hobe
02-04-2008, 09:42 AM
The Giants D-line play was a thing of beauty last night. They were dominant and controlled the line of scrimmage for the Giants. They were a real mix of players and the Giants had enough of them to rotate them. If I recall correctly the last sack on Brady was by a rookie defensive tackle. However, the bigger deal was the fact that the Pats could not run. No one had a big leads in the game, some that offences could do anything. The Giants forced the Pats to pass and then harassed Brady relentlessly.

There is no doubt that our defensive line needs work, but they don’t all suck! We have some promising rookies (Harris, Crowder, Moss, Birdine, plus others in reserve.) that need to be developed. Dumervil, Ekuban, and Engelberger are keepers. We still need others.
Keep working on the rookies and look for improvement. Big name FA have not been the answer so far.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 09:47 AM
Nothing startling here. Of course a DLine is important. Most of us have been screaming for a dline for the last 10 years. Just never get it.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 09:52 AM
Again, everyone of those DLinemen the Giants got was through the DRAFT! Several of those LB's were free agent pick-ups, so does this answer the question on what we should do in the draft? What we saw last night was the recipe to beat the elite teams in the NFL, great DLine and different blitz packages. They stopped the best offense in NFL History (by points scored anyway) cold.

I think the Broncs should trade up to get Ellis or trade down to get more picks if the cost is too high to get Ellis. Anything else is just putting window dressing on the DLine issue.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Again, everyone of those DLinemen the Giants got was through the DRAFT! Several of those LB's were free agent pick-ups, so does this answer the question on what we should do in the draft? What we saw last night was the recipe to beat the elite teams in the NFL, great DLine and different blitz packages. They stopped the best offense in NFL History (by points scored anyway) cold.

I think the Broncs should trade up to get Ellis or trade down to get more picks if the cost is too high to get Ellis. Anything else is just putting window dressing on the DLine issue.

We can always find some retreads from someone else's team. We're pretty good at that and then have Shanny tell us how great they are going to be.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 09:59 AM
We can always find some retreads from someone else's team. We're pretty good at that and then have Shanny tell us how great they are going to be.
Filling in one spot on the Dline with a FA isn't a big deal, but recently it has been a disaster. Shanny better get a scout who knows DT's or something or we need a real GM who knows talent. I'll give Shanny a pass for now as the last two drafts have looked better, but he needs to get some good DT's in the draft this year or next or we will continue to be on the outside looking in.

Where is Coach to argue about LB's over DT's?

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 10:03 AM
Filling in one spot on the Dline with a FA isn't a big deal, but recently it has been a disaster. Shanny better get a scout who knows DT's or something or we need a real GM who knows talent. I'll give Shanny a pass for now as the last two drafts have looked better, but he needs to get some good DT's in the draft this year or next or we will continue to be on the outside looking in.

Where is Coach to argue about LB's over DT's?

I'm still not sold on the last draft. Moss is still an undersized unproven project. Crowder looked decent, and Thomas was mis-used. I'm still hoping for a huge impact from these three. Just not sold, yet.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:09 AM
I'm still not sold on the last draft. Moss is still an undersized unproven project. Crowder looked decent, and Thomas was mis-used. I'm still hoping for a huge impact from these three. Just not sold, yet.
We'll see how they do without with some blitzing help and without the 200 lb weight of Jim Bates hanging around their neck. Not saying Slowik will be any better, but at least he'll try to blitz and make adjustments.

I don't know about Moss either, definately a Bates scheme type DE. He could turn out to be ok though, Pryce didn't do anything his 1st year either.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I just hope we manage the draft and free-agency well. We have some leverage this year again with that 12 pick and we can dangle JW out there if needed. I'd like to see us move back and pick up some more picks. There are a lot of steals in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th round if you get lucky.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:19 AM
I just hope we manage the draft and free-agency well. We have some leverage this year again with that 12 pick and we can dangle JW out there if needed. I'd like to see us move back and pick up some more picks. There are a lot of steals in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th round if you get lucky.
That is the name of the game. Why are the Pats, Colts, Chargers, etc. in the playoffs every year? Good drafts, plain and simple. I read that Bowlen is getting turned off my free agents, what worked in 1997 and 1998 doesn't work today, that is the ever changing NFL. Good for him, Shanny's biggest weakness is impatience. He wants to win the SB every year, but you just can't do it with FA anymore. The Broncos are probably going to take 2 more years to get back to where they contend, but only if they draft well. Building the Oline and Dline is the best recipe for long term success IMHO.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 10:22 AM
That is the name of the game.
Why are the Pats, Colts, Chargers, etc. in the playoffs every year? Good drafts, plain and simple. I read that Bowlen is getting turned off my free agents, what worked in 1997 and 1998 doesn't work today, that is the ever changing NFL. Good for him, Shanny's biggest weakness is impatience. He wants to win the SB every year, but you just can't do it with FA anymore. The Broncos are probably going to take 2 more years to get back to where they contend, but only if they draft well. Bulding the Oline and Dline is the best recipe for long term success IMHO.

It's called the front office and management. Something we lack. Polian and Smith are two of the best.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 10:25 AM
Filling in one spot on the Dline with a FA isn't a big deal, but recently it has been a disaster. Shanny better get a scout who knows DT's or something or we need a real GM who knows talent. I'll give Shanny a pass for now as the last two drafts have looked better, but he needs to get some good DT's in the draft this year or next or we will continue to be on the outside looking in.

Where is Coach to argue about LB's over DT's?

We drafted 4 d-linemen in the last 2 drafts. Either we don't know how to draft them or we don't utilize them.

I don't think it's an automatic assumption that 4 top tier DL are needed. If Moss pans out as a pass rusher to compliment Dumer and Crowder can play every down and perform like he did last year and Thomas is utilized properly...don't we already have a solid line.

Yes the Giants line was accumulated through the draft...but all of the regulars have at minimum, 3 years experience.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:34 AM
We drafted 4 d-linemen in the last 2 drafts. Either we don't know how to draft them or we don't utilize them.

I don't think it's an automatic assumption that 4 top tier DL are needed. If Moss pans out as a pass rusher to compliment Dumer and Crowder can play every down and perform like he did last year and Thomas is utilized properly...don't we already have a solid line.

Yes the Giants line was accumulated through the draft...but all of the regulars have at minimum, 3 years experience.
So you draft a couple of DT's this year and in 2 years our line looks pretty good. Think of this...

DE's - Doom, Crowder, Moss, Ekuban or Engleberger
DT's - Ellis (trade next year's 1 to move up and get him), Thomas, McKinley, another draft pick like Red Bryant, Odom, or another big 320 lb type. That way we have the run stopper and penetrate-type of DT's in a rotation.

It sure looked good for the Giants last night, their line killed the Pats (with their 3 Pro Bowlers). I'm sure much of it is the scheme, but we haven't had much luck the last few years with retreads and rookie FA DT's. Other than Jamal Williams and Pat Williams (that I can think of) the Pro Bowl DT's are 1st round picks.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 10:35 AM
yeah and Tuck was a 3rd rounder.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 10:41 AM
So you draft a couple of DT's this year and in 2 years our line looks pretty good. Think of this...

DE's - Doom, Crowder, Moss, Ekuban or Engleberger
DT's - Ellis (trade next year's 1 to move up and get him), Thomas, McKinley, another draft pick like Red Bryant, Odom, or another big 320 lb type. That way we have the run stopper and penetrate-type of DT's in a rotation.

It sure looked good for the Giants last night, their line killed the Pats (with their 3 Pro Bowlers). I'm sure much of it is the scheme, but we haven't had much luck the last few years with retreads and rookie FA DT's. Other than Jamal Williams and Pat Williams (that I can think of) the Pro Bowl DT's are 1st round picks.

Understood, but I remember last off season, the "experts" talked about how the Giants needed to improve their d-line in the draft. The Giants are solid on the outside, like we could be soon, but do Cofield and Robbins really impress anyone in the middle of that line?

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 10:43 AM
Understood, but I remember last off season, the "experts" talked about how the Giants needed to improve their d-line in the draft. The Giants are solid on the outside, like we could be soon, but do Cofield and Robbins really impress anyone in the middle of that line?

Yes, I like them both!

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:43 AM
yeah and Tuck was a 3rd rounder.
True, and we would have had hime if Al's back wasn't effed up. Damn the luck. Tuck is a monster, wonder if they'll move him back to end if Strahan retires?

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:46 AM
Understood, but I remember last off season, the "experts" talked about how the Giants needed to improve their d-line in the draft. The Giants are solid on the outside, like we could be soon, but do Cofield and Robbins really impress anyone in the middle of that line?
But, I thought, Tuck was a DE that they were going to use to replace Strahan (who everyone thought was retiring or leaving the team at draft time). So at the time they probably needed another player. Having Strahan back and moving Tuck inside was definately the answer.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 10:48 AM
But, I thought, Tuck was a DE that they were going to use to replace Strahan (who everyone thought was retiring or leaving the team at draft time). So at the time they probably needed another player. Having Strahan back and moving Tuck inside was definately the answer.

The heart AND the production from that line comes from the DE's. Anything the DT's get is based on help from the ends. If Crowder, Moss and Dumer produce like NY's DE's, then Thomas and another solid guy in the middle should be enough. However, they aren't going to win the battle every time and we'll still need help behind them.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 10:52 AM
The heart AND the production from that line comes from the DE's. Anything the DT's get is based on help from the ends. If Crowder, Moss and Dumer produce like NY's DE's, then Thomas and another solid guy in the middle should be enough. However, they aren't going to win the battle every time and we'll still need help behind them.
True, I just think it's easier to find really good players or great players at LB in FA or later in the draft. I guess being a big, fat, DT sized guy I'm biased somewhat. :D

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 10:56 AM
Last night is living proof how important a defensive line can be to the success of an overall team.

I'd say the Giants have decent corners, but they're nothing that will make your tongue fall out of your mouth. Usi, Michael and Justin are probably one of the top three, if not the top three defensive end tandem in the NFL. I'm still a little bitter about us not being able to get Tuck a few years ago, and after a hurt season last year - he's proving his worth.

He only started two games, but had over 60 tackles and 10 sacks. He is dominant when he's on the field and it showed last night. The Giants DT's are nothing to get too excited about - but their ends are tremendous.

With Crowder and Dumervil in the fold, and hopefully a healthy Moss - Denver has the potential for a good defensive line as well. Throw in Thomas and things can get even better. Draft another young DT or get a good veteran and we should be okay. I'd still get another power end because Dumervil and Moss will never fill that void, and Crowder will need to stay fresh on occasion as well.

Having a good defensive line is paramount. Games are won in the trenches. Last night is living proof.

turftoad
02-04-2008, 10:58 AM
But, I thought, Tuck was a DE that they were going to use to replace Strahan (who everyone thought was retiring or leaving the team at draft time). So at the time they probably needed another player. Having Strahan back and moving Tuck inside was definately the answer.

Tuck is an end. He will replace Stahan when he retires. They put him in as a DT in passing situations because of his speed and pass rush abilities.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:00 AM
True, I just think it's easier to find really good players or great players at LB in FA or later in the draft. I guess being a big, fat, DT sized guy I'm biased somewhat. :D

I won't disagree with you, but I figure we did get a 1st round DT last year. If it weren't for the rhetorical character questions, Thomas could have easily worked his way into the first round last year.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 11:02 AM
I won't disagree with you, but I figure we did get a 1st round DT last year. If it weren't for the rhetorical character questions, Thomas could have easily worked his way into the first round last year.
Very true, maybe we can find another one this year. As long as his name isn't Clarett or he isn't a prima donna WR. Tired of those types.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 11:03 AM
Tuck is an end. He will replace Stahan when he retires. They put him in as a DT in passing situations because of his speed and pass rush abilities.
He would probably wear out as a DT over time, but he has plenty of strength. I saw him just toss one of the guards out of his way last night, the guy is a beast.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:07 AM
Very true, maybe we can find another one this year. As long as his name isn't Clarett or he isn't a prima donna WR. Tired of those types.

I think there are guys that can fill that role that will be available later on. No one is in the class of Dorsey or Ellis, but what we'd have to give to move up to get them would deplete the picks we need to get help elsewhere. Now if we could somehow sign Briggs...I'd be all for moving up and trying to get one of the big DT's

mopatt24
02-04-2008, 11:22 AM
There can be some solid and smart pick ups in FA this year. ( Greg Jones for 1, IMO ) Even if they bring Rogers in ( which I have a feeling they'll make a play for ) I think they should still try to make a play for Sedrick Ellis come draft time.

Unrealistic likely, but would not be surprised if such moves were made

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Pat Sims, DT from Auburn and Trevor Laws, DT from Notre Dame, should both be there in the 2nd round..............So, if nothing else, we can still pickup a good DT if Ellis and Dorsey are both gone............Trade back and draft Connor, picking up either an additional pick, or swaping 2nd rounders with a top five team, and then taking one of those DT's...............I like Laws alot.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 11:31 AM
Denver can use Crowder like the Giants do Tuck. Move Crowder to DT with Thomas and put Doom and Moss on the outside. We should be good to go with pressuring the QB, run stopping is where we struggle.

mclark
02-04-2008, 11:36 AM
Giants will have Kiwi coming back from injured reserve next year as well.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Denver can use Crowder like the Giants do Tuck. Move Crowder to DT with Thomas and put Doom and Moss on the outside. We should be good to go with pressuring the QB, run stopping is where we struggle.

The price you pay for having small DE's. One of them has to eventually go. I like Crowder because he can get to the QB and play the run, so either Moss or Dumer could be traded since they are both the same player.

We really don't know hoe Thomas will play against the run since he wasn't allowed to last year. Adding a good tackler in the LB corps would help as well.

G_Money
02-04-2008, 11:39 AM
I'm still not sold on the last draft. Moss is still an undersized unproven project. Crowder looked decent, and Thomas was mis-used. I'm still hoping for a huge impact from these three. Just not sold, yet.

Right.

So how do you reconcile "Well, everyone of our DL draftpicks from last year might be busts" with "WE MUST DRAFT A DL!!!111!!!ONE!!!11!!"

FWIW, I didn't like Moss on draft day, I did like Crowder and Thomas fine, but I was especially unhappy about giving up all the draftpicks to get Moss and Thomas.

Now it's a year later, and we're still talking about blowing...I mean SPENDING another 1st round draftpick on a DL. Defensive line is a conundrum: on the one hand, it's really hard to pry great DL away from other teams so you need to draft them, but OTOH they have one of the highest "bust" rates of any position.

If we spent 3 of our 1st 4 picks on LBs instead of DTs I guarantee you at least one quality starter, and probably an entire cadre of special teams contributors and backups.

I can't guarantee that with 3 DL picks.

So knowing that we need LBs and DL and safeties and a WR and some OL and probably a RB and... :eek:

Anyway, knowing that we have a lot of needs that we skipped over last year because we were "a piece or two" from being championship material, which would you rather do?

1) Spend more picks on DL, although year 2 is a better indicator for DL than year 1 (usually) and we may already have the right DL on this team. This means acknowledging our draft last year is already a bust and prevents us from adding some top-flight talent to other positions.

2) Skip DL entirely in the draft and pick up all those other positions we foolishly skipped last year. Make the 07 draft a make-or-break draft for the DL - if it doesn't work and we skip it in 08 we'll be so far behind it's ridiculous.

3) Draft backups (calling Monsanto Pope, Mr. Pope, your lookalike in the draft has a car waiting...) or roleplayers for the DL and spend the 1st day picks on other (more reliable) positions.

*shrugs* For me, last year's draft HAS to work. We flushed our other options. I cross my fingers and hope that we got the right guys, and fill my other positions, drafting the right rotation player (say Hayden from Wisconsin, maybe) on the 2nd day if he's there.

Yes, a great DL is a tremendous way to win if you can make it work. We've never won that way, not in the entire history of the Denver Broncos. Having a great player here or there like Rulon Jones does not make an entire front fearsome.

And since we've won - A LOT - I get the feeling that although a dominant DL can be a great way to win, it's not the only way.

Pressuring the QB, though, is a must. An absolute must. And THAT'S something that's been sorely lacking recently, but doesn't necessarily require the greatest front 4 in the land.

The thing that came out of the Giants game is that pressure on the QB allowed them to have their way with the greatest offense in the land. They did it with the DL - we'll likely have to do it another way, unless those '07 kids turn into studs. But it's the pressure that's the key. Clamp down on the run, put the screws to the opposing QB and you can win a lot of games.

~G

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 11:39 AM
The price you pay for having small DE's. One of them has to eventually go. I like Crowder because he can get to the QB and play the run, so either Moss or Dumer could be traded since they are both the same player.

We really don't know hoe Thomas will play against the run since he wasn't allowed to last year. Adding a good tackler in the LB corps would help as well.

I wished they would try moss at outside linebacker for a a few plays. Experiment with him during the off season and preseason.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:41 AM
The price you pay for having small DE's. One of them has to eventually go. I like Crowder because he can get to the QB and play the run, so either Moss or Dumer could be traded since they are both the same player.

We really don't know hoe Thomas will play against the run since he wasn't allowed to last year. Adding a good tackler in the LB corps would help as well.

Moss is 265 and Dumervil is 260............How is that small for a DE?

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 11:42 AM
Moss is 265 and Dumervil is 260............How is that small for a DE?

It's not small if that player has power.... Neither player has the power to stop the run. Not yet anyways. Bigger O-linemen engulf them and maul them over.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:45 AM
It's not small if that player has power.... Neither player has the power to stop the run. Not yet anyways. Bigger O-linemen engulf them and maul them over.


I disagree, I think Dumervil is actually very good against the run. I was especially notcing that when I re-watched the Viking game the other day.........

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 11:46 AM
I disagree, I think Dumervil is actually very good against the run. I was especially notcing that when I re-watched the Viking game the other day.........

He gives good effort, but for the most part he is a libility.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 11:46 AM
Crowder isn't as explosive as Tuck, but I agree that we can slide him inside on passing downs to create that push. We did that with Ekuban to let Dumervil get PT his rookie season, so yeah.

mopatt24
02-04-2008, 11:47 AM
Pat Sims, DT from Auburn and Trevor Laws, DT from Notre Dame, should both be there in the 2nd round..............So, if nothing else, we can still pickup a good DT if Ellis and Dorsey are both gone............Trade back and draft Connor, picking up either an additional pick, or swaping 2nd rounders with a top five team, and then taking one of those DT's...............I like Laws alot.


Makes alot of since

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:47 AM
Put Crowder and Moss side by side and tell me that Moss is only 10 pounds lighter than Crowder. If that's the case...great. Maybe he can develop a run defense game. But I don't know that he in that weight range.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:48 AM
He gives good effort, but for the most part he is a libility.

Mostly because he's always close to the QB and not as close to the Runningback as the rest of the Defensive line...............His main goal is to apply pressure and SECOND, is to chase the Runningback. I have seen him chase down the runner from behind on numerous occassions.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Put Crowder and Moss side by side and tell me that Moss is only 10 pounds lighter than Crowder. If that's the case...great. Maybe he can develop a run defense game. But I don't know that he in that weight range.

He's 6'6''..............So, he may not LOOK as heavy...............Wilt chamberlin weighed 300 pounds at one point in his career too.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Dooms too inconsistent, not great against the run, and is nothing special in my opinion. He makes some plays here and there, sure. He's a specialist and should be used in that role.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 11:50 AM
Denver should trade down about two times. From #12 to #18 and pick up a second rounder, and trade down even more and get another second or a third and end up having a nice haul.

If we're looking for a linebacker, there's no reason to draft in the first round when there is talent well into Day 2, and given the fact that line backer is one of those positions where you can get production ASAP (like G was referring to) I'd hope we'd wait.

Trade down, way down - get more picks and take a BPA in the first. Perhaps an OT, WR, RB. . . whatever. Just get players who can produce and help this team. We need more picks though.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:50 AM
He's 6'6''..............So, he may not LOOK as heavy...............Wilt chamberlin weighed 300 pounds at one point in his career too.

It's only 2 inches taller than Crowder.

Nevertheless, if he truly weighs in at 265, then there is no excuse for him to not be able to play the run.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 11:51 AM
Denver should trade down about two times. From #12 to #18 and pick up a second rounder, and trade down even more and get another second or a third and end up having a nice haul.

If we're looking for a linebacker, there's no reason to draft in the first round when there is talent well into Day 2, and given the fact that line backer is one of those positions where you can get production ASAP (like G was referring to) I'd hope we'd wait.

Trade down, way down - get more picks and take a BPA in the first. Perhaps an OT, WR, RB. . . whatever. Just get players who can produce and help this team. We need more picks though.

Don't be taking no WR with the 1st pick. No WR is coming in next year and taking this team where it needs to be. None....

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:53 AM
My vote is to take the BPA regardless of where we draft. I think we have enough holes that we could benefit from anythign we take. Dorsey, Ellis and Clady gone at 12? Grab Mendenhall.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:53 AM
It's only 2 inches taller than Crowder.

Nevertheless, if he truly weighs in at 265, then there is no excuse for him to not be able to play the run.

I didn't see where he had a problem..............He only played 6 games or so............I'm not about to give up on the guy just yet...........LOL !!!!!!!!!

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:55 AM
I didn't see where he had a problem..............He only played 6 games or so............I'm not about to give up on the guy just yet...........LOL !!!!!!!!!

I'm not saying I'm giving up on him. When I was promoting us drafting him all of last off season, I always mentioned he played well against the run at Florida. I have full confidence in him to transistion that to the NFL, but Doom is racking up sacks and Crowder showed signs he can be a dominant DE. Someone has to lose out on PT.

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 11:56 AM
If last night's game wasn't a sure example of why we need to draft DT...I don't know what is...

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm not saying I'm giving up on him. When I was promoting us drafting him all of last off season, I always mentioned he played well against the run at Florida. I have full confidence in him to transistion that to the NFL, but Doom is racking up sacks and Crowder showed signs he can be a dominant DE. Someone has to lose out on PT.

If it was Crower that broke his leg and Moss that had the valueable playing time this year, I think we would not be having this discussion.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 11:59 AM
If it was Crower that broke his leg and Moss that had the valueable playing time this year, I think we would not be having this discussion.

Maybe...maybe not. We won't know that until we see Moss on a regular basis. Hopefully they both pan out.

Cutler6MVP
02-04-2008, 12:00 PM
Dooms too inconsistent, not great against the run, and is nothing special in my opinion. He makes some plays here and there, sure. He's a specialist and should be used in that role.

I am going to have to disagree with you there....

You might be right when it comes to him being too inconsistent but he definetely is something special. He's young, so he has time to improve, and yes I understand this is 2nd year in the league. He has the hardest part of a DE mastered for the most part. The easier part(playing the run) he could learn as he goes along, and as he learns the situation of the down better.

We need people who can rush the passer, and Doom is our only one. Not every DE can become a complete DE, but thats still no reason to make him only a specialist. We need to make a supporting cast around him, that can make up for some of the bad run game D he brings.

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 12:01 PM
I am going to have to disagree with you there....

You might be right when it comes to him being too inconsistent but he definetely is something special. He's young, so he has time to improve, and yes I understand this is 2nd year in the league. He has the hardest part of a DE mastered for the most part. The easier part(playing the run) he could learn as he goes along, and as he learns the situation of the down better.

We need people who can rush the passer, and Doom is our only one. Not every DE can become a complete DE, but thats still no reason to make him only a specialist. We need to make a supporting cast around him, that can make up for some of the bad run game D he brings.

But he's never going to be big enough to protect against the run. That's the problem.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 12:05 PM
Maybe...maybe not. We won't know that until we see Moss on a regular basis. Hopefully they both pan out.

I know, I've heard it all before...............I heard the same thing about Marshall.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Don't be taking no WR with the 1st pick. No WR is coming in next year and taking this team where it needs to be. None....

You mean the Super Bowl? No rookie is going to take this team where it needs to be next year. The draft is about the future and fixing things long-term, it's not a stop-gap. Jay's going to need an extra receiver down the road, that's a given. There's no better time than now to get one, especially in this draft, which has a plethora of talent.


If last night's game wasn't a sure example of why we need to draft DT...I don't know what is...

Besides the fact that the Giants defensive tackles are made up of undrafted free agents, late-round picks and mediocre talent; your point may have held some value.

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 12:12 PM
You mean the Super Bowl? No rookie is going to take this team where it needs to be next year. The draft is about the future and fixing things long-term, it's not a stop-gap. Jay's going to need an extra receiver down the road, that's a given. There's no better time than now to get one, especially in this draft, which has a plethora of talent.



Besides the fact that the Giants defensive tackles are made up of undrafted free agents, late-round picks and mediocre talent; your point may have held some value.

Did I say which round? We need to address the position, somewhere.

Cutler6MVP
02-04-2008, 12:12 PM
But he's never going to be big enough to protect against the run. That's the problem.

That might be so, but that doesnt mean we should make him a situational passer. We need to build a supporting cast around him that can rush the passer and play the run. There are few of Dooms kind out there, and you're really lucky if you can find a complete DE that could rush the passer with success and stop the run.

No one is claiming Doom is a superstar, theyre saying he could become one, hell he could become one of the greatest rushing DE's, who knows. All we need him to do is take on some blockers for our LB's(hopefully we get some good ones) to swoop in and make the tackle.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 12:18 PM
Did I say which round? We need to address the position, somewhere.

That's not my point. You're saying last night is living proof that we need to address the defensive tackle position. Why? The Giants haven't addressed it. The Giants get the pressure from their elite defensive ends, not from a push on the interior. Making a reference to the Giants successes last night and trying to use that as a talking point to say why we need to draft defensive tackles would be false, because most of the pressure the Giants get do come from their ends, and when a guy like Justin Tuck (DE) gets to slide inside on passing downs and disrupt on the interior.

The Giants defensive tackles suck and they haven't addressed them. Your point is moot.

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 12:24 PM
That's not my point. You're saying last night is living proof that we need to address the defensive tackle position. Why? The Giants haven't addressed it. The Giants get the pressure from their elite defensive ends, not from a push on the interior. Making a reference to the Giants successes last night and trying to use that as a talking point to say why we need to draft defensive tackles would be false, because most of the pressure the Giants get do come from their ends, and when a guy like Justin Tuck (DE) gets to slide inside on passing downs and disrupt on the interior.

The Giants defensive tackles suck and they haven't addressed them. Your point is moot.

The Patriots were forced to pass because they couldn't run. This is the time when you tell me Kawika Mitchell is an elite linebacker.

Robbins was a second-round pick for the Vikings...and a free agent signing. Barry Cofield was a fourth-round selection and Jay Alford was a third-round selection...no undrafted free agents in sight.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 12:32 PM
Robbins was a second-round pick for the Vikings...and a free agent signing. Barry Cofield was a fourth-round selection and Jay Alford was a third-round selection...no undrafted free agents in sight.

Excuse my lack of research on when Cofield and company were undrafted. They had three active defensive tackles during the playoffs. What does that tell you?

MOtorboat
02-04-2008, 12:41 PM
Excuse my lack of research on when Cofield and company were undrafted. They had three active defensive tackles during the playoffs. What does that tell you?

That those three tackles did one heck of a job...which then allowed their defensive ends to pin their ears back and go.

MHCBill
02-04-2008, 12:47 PM
I know I'm not the only person to be saying this, but we have got to get our pressure on the opposing QB a priority.

Defense should have two priorities... stop the run, rush the QB.

The beauty about rushing the QB is even without sacks you can make him make bad decisions, poor throws, etc. Constant pressure with hits, knockdowns, and sacks creates poor timing and hurried throws. Hurried throws and poor timing creates turnovers and incompletions. So simple, yet so hard to do.

If this team is going to turn the corner they need three elements to come together. Player talent needs improved, coaching (play calls, schemes, and utliizing personel correctly), and player execution.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 12:57 PM
That's not my point. You're saying last night is living proof that we need to address the defensive tackle position. Why? The Giants haven't addressed it. The Giants get the pressure from their elite defensive ends, not from a push on the interior. Making a reference to the Giants successes last night and trying to use that as a talking point to say why we need to draft defensive tackles would be false, because most of the pressure the Giants get do come from their ends, and when a guy like Justin Tuck (DE) gets to slide inside on passing downs and disrupt on the interior.

The Giants defensive tackles suck and they haven't addressed them. Your point is moot.

Giants DT did a good enough job stopping the run that the DE's could rush the passer. Also, you may have missed the huge sack that Jay Alford had and the pressure Justin Tuck put on the QB from the DT position.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 01:02 PM
It all starts up the middle....Having a good front 4 and MLB are very important for any defense. Same thing goes with an offense.... You need a good center, QB, and FB.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 01:09 PM
I have to think that the Giants DT's benefit from the DE play more than the DE's benefit from the DT's. They have great DE's a very good MLB and Mitchell isn't exactly a hack. Add a solid SS in Wilson and they have a very good defense.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 01:15 PM
I have to think that the Giants DT's benefit from the DE play more than the DE's benefit from the DT's. They have great DE's a very good MLB and Mitchell isn't exactly a hack. Add a solid SS in Wilson and they have a very good defense.


DE's job, mainly, is to rush the passer............sure, they make tackles too.

DT's job is to stop the run..............and yes, they also can rush the passer.

So why, are we constantly looking for players to do both............I know there are some that can, but there is a reason you want 320 pound DT's and 260 pound DE's..................Big strong run stuffing DT's and quick, passrushing DE's.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 01:24 PM
how essential is the Dline....?


ask the Giants

Cutler6MVP
02-04-2008, 01:35 PM
how essential is the Dline....?


ask the Giants

Couldnt of said it any better myself.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 01:39 PM
DE's job, mainly, is to rush the passer............sure, they make tackles too.

DT's job is to stop the run..............and yes, they also can rush the passer.

So why, are we constantly looking for players to do both............I know there are some that can, but there is a reason you want 320 pound DT's and 260 pound DE's..................Big strong run stuffing DT's and quick, passrushing DE's.

..and when guys like Doom and Gold are getting swallowed up by blockers and Lynch is chasing LT 40 yards downfield, we'll see the importance of solid tackling on the edges.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 01:44 PM
..and when guys like Doom and Gold are getting swallowed up by blockers and Lynch is chasing LT 40 yards downfield, we'll see the importance of solid tackling on the edges.

We must be talking about two different Dumervils..............He doesn't get eatten up by blockers Coach...............Gold on the other hand.

BigDaddyBronco
02-04-2008, 01:45 PM
I have to think that the Giants DT's benefit from the DE play more than the DE's benefit from the DT's. They have great DE's a very good MLB and Mitchell isn't exactly a hack. Add a solid SS in Wilson and they have a very good defense.
I would agree except when Tuck was playing inside. It would be a hard choice between him and Osi on who was more disruptive in that game. That and the blitzing. The pressure from the DT's and blitzes kept the FB and RB on pass protection in the middle and Osi and Strahan had one-on-one match-ups.

So my original point. We were shown that a combo of a really good DLine and some timely blitzes shut down one of the best offenses in NFL history. Should the Broncos try and copy the Giants success?

roomemp
02-04-2008, 01:46 PM
DE's job, mainly, is to rush the passer............sure, they make tackles too.

DT's job is to stop the run..............and yes, they also can rush the passer.

So why, are we constantly looking for players to do both............I know there are some that can, but there is a reason you want 320 pound DT's and 260 pound DE's..................Big strong run stuffing DT's and quick, passrushing DE's.

DE's rush the passer yes but they also keep containment, which is just as important. If the DE's just rushed the passer on every play, offenses would just run draw plays all day. We need at least one complete DE to start on the line. Moss might turn into that someday but I think Crowder has a better chance to develop into a more complete DE

Cutler6MVP
02-04-2008, 01:48 PM
..and when guys like Doom and Gold are getting swallowed up by blockers and Lynch is chasing LT 40 yards downfield, we'll see the importance of solid tackling on the edges.

I believe I stated earlier we need to get a better LB core for this to work.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 01:50 PM
I believe I stated earlier we need to get a better LB core for this to work.

...and I completely agree. Hence my preference to pursue a guy like Briggs.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 01:51 PM
DE's rush the passer yes but they also keep containment, which is just as important. If the DE's just rushed the passer on every play, offenses would just run draw plays all day. We need at least one complete DE to start on the line. Moss might turn into that someday but I think Crowder has a better chance to develop into a more complete DE


Dumervil can keep containment.................Engelberger can't.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 01:53 PM
DE's rush the passer yes but they also keep containment, which is just as important. If the DE's just rushed the passer on every play, offenses would just run draw plays all day. We need at least one complete DE to start on the line. Moss might turn into that someday but I think Crowder has a better chance to develop into a more complete DE

Crowder will be more complete, more solid...............Dumervil will make more plays............sacks, forcing fumbles, etc.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 01:53 PM
..and when guys like Doom and Gold are getting swallowed up by blockers and Lynch is chasing LT 40 yards downfield, we'll see the importance of solid tackling on the edges.

did u say DOOM gets swallowed by blockers?


im really confused now........... and sober

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 01:54 PM
Sedrick Ellis seems to be climbing the draft charts. In order for that to occur, someone must drop. Is anyone against us taking Vernon Gholston at DE if he is the one who slips?

roomemp
02-04-2008, 01:57 PM
Dumervil can keep containment.................Engelberger can't.

I can't count on my fingers how many times Doom broke containment. Engleberger can keep containment better than Doom hence the reason why Doom sucks as a pass rusher. Doom overpursues and Engleberger does not pursue at all

Broncolingus
02-04-2008, 01:57 PM
Most of us agree with everyone and everything being said here...

Not that it's anything that hasn't been said for the past 4-5 years now...

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 01:58 PM
did u say DOOM gets swallowed by blockers?


im really confused now........... and sober

On running plays. Isn't run defense the problem we have? Doom had 12 sacks and all of 39 tackles. There is a reason for that. Even Engleberger, while playing hurt all season, had more tackles.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 01:58 PM
Dumervil can keep containment.................Engelberger can't.

Is that a joke?

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 02:00 PM
I can't count on my fingers how many times Doom broke containment. Engleberger can keep containment better than Doom hence the reason why Doom sucks as a pass rusher. Doom overpursues and Engleberger does not pursue at all


Doom SUCKS as a passrusher???????? did i read that right?

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 02:00 PM
Is that a joke?


Uh.............No, it's not.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:03 PM
On running plays. Isn't run defense the problem we have? Doom had 12 sacks and all of 39 tackles. There is a reason for that. Even Engleberger, while playing hurt all season, had more tackles.

your right..... i think doom is more of a sack specialist obviously... I think the run defense was terrible cuz or LB corps was..... well, not that good.

with a solid group of LBs that can blitz and move off blocks, the Run will improve without any upgrades/changes on the line

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:04 PM
I can't count on my fingers how many times Doom broke containment. Engleberger can keep containment better than Doom hence the reason why Doom sucks as a pass rusher. Doom overpursues and Engleberger does not pursue at all

is THAT a joke???

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 02:04 PM
Our defensive line is so bad that Josh Mallard came in and was actually one of the better defensive linemen we had at the end of the season.

Doom struggles stopping the run
Engelberger is a backup starting on a bad defensive line
Thomas and Crowder have real talent but both need to be used better
Moss is over-rated with most Broncos fans
McKinley is a backup starting on a bad defensive line
Ekuban is a solid player, but was injuried

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:05 PM
somebody please kick me in the balls

roomemp
02-04-2008, 02:05 PM
Doom SUCKS as a passrusher???????? did i read that right?



No Doom is a great pass rusher. He SUCKS at containment

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:06 PM
since when the hell was it the main job ENDs to stop the run in this league?


are some of you people smokin crack? seriously

roomemp
02-04-2008, 02:09 PM
since when the hell was it the main job ENDs to stop the run in this league?


are some of you people smokin crack? seriously


Since the defenses main job was to stop the offense

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 02:09 PM
since when the hell was it the main job ENDs to stop the run in this league?


are some of you people smokin crack? seriously

Now I know you are high. A complete end that can play the run, can stay in the game all 3 downs and be an asset on pass plays on 1st and 2nd down. A DE that can ONLY rush the passer can pretty much only play on obvious passing situations. Much like Doom.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:13 PM
Now I know you are high. A complete end that can play the run, can stay in the game all 3 downs and be an asset on pass plays on 1st and 2nd down. A DE that can ONLY rush the passer can pretty much only play on obvious passing situations. Much like Doom.

ok... so dwight freeney sucks cuz he doesnt do well at stopping the run...

an IDEAL setup would be to a SPECIALIST and a who can move blockers and run down the line as your DEs......

Elvis is a small guy... He doesnt possess the strength to manuever the olinmen on rushing plays... He will beef up a bit... Guy is getting better and better.

AGAIN..... our run stopping problems will heal with LBs that can play.... DJ is our only good LB

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 02:14 PM
Who was the MVP of rhe Defense?

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:14 PM
Since the defenses main job was to stop the offense

yea cuz its that easy right?

roomemp
02-04-2008, 02:16 PM
ok... so dwight freeney sucks cuz he doesnt do well at stopping the run...

an IDEAL setup would be to a SPECIALIST and a who can move blockers and run down the line as your DEs......

Elvis is a small guy... He doesnt possess the strength to manuever the olinmen on rushing plays... He will beef up a bit... Guy is getting better and better.

AGAIN..... our run stopping problems will heal with LBs that can play.... DJ is our only good LB

Not really.....Our LB's will just be making more tackles because the running game will consistantly get to the second level.

roomemp
02-04-2008, 02:21 PM
yea cuz its that easy right?


If your a pro athlete

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 02:23 PM
ok... so dwight freeney sucks cuz he doesnt do well at stopping the run...

an IDEAL setup would be to a SPECIALIST and a who can move blockers and run down the line as your DEs......

Elvis is a small guy... He doesnt possess the strength to manuever the olinmen on rushing plays... He will beef up a bit... Guy is getting better and better.

AGAIN..... our run stopping problems will heal with LBs that can play.... DJ is our only good LB

Dwight Freeney does suck versus the run. If the Colts didn't put so many points on the board every game you would see Freeney's sack totals go down because more teams would run on them. The Colts use Freeney and Mathis because they know they will put up some points on the board and teams have to pass to keep up with them or get back in the game.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Look at the DE's that can play the run. Allen, Kerney, Cole, Williams, Kampman, Umenyiora.

These are your sack leaders because they can stay on the field. Of all the DE's in the NFL with 8 sacks or more (17 total) only John Abraham and KGB had fewer tackles than Doom.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 02:27 PM
Look at the teams that made the playoffs.

Cowboys, Packers, Giants, and Redskins
Patriots, Chargers, Colts, and Jaguars

Everyone of these teams have good defensive lines, good MLB's, and at least one good safety or run the 3-4 and make up for safety play with an extra linebacker.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 02:28 PM
I started a thread elsewhere, but I don't think the DEs are the issue...it's the tiny bodies around them. Sure Osi and Strahan can play the run, but they also have a lot bigger, more physical bodies surrounding them to assist. We don't have that.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:29 PM
[/B]

Not really.....Our LB's will just be making more tackles because the running game will consistantly get to the second level.

second level?

try the 5th level.... doom made tackles 20 yards down field cuz guy like Ian Gold get get off a block....

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 02:31 PM
Ian's counterpart on the Giants weighs almost 30 more lbs than he does. I'd say that has to help a little.

roomemp
02-04-2008, 02:37 PM
second level?

try the 5th level.... doom made tackles 20 yards down field cuz guy like Ian Gold get get off a block....

Do you know why that happened? DOOM BROKE CONTAINMENT TO BEGIN WITH. It all starts upfront

Gold does suck though....I agree

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 02:57 PM
Do you know why that happened? DOOM BROKE CONTAINMENT TO BEGIN WITH. It all starts upfront

Gold does suck though....I agree

i just think that the LINE is supposed to create pressure and disrupt the Oline... The guys on the Dline are supposed to take up blocks.... it helps the LBs make plays and STOP THE RUN....

Dline= pressure, penetration, kill the QB
LBs= blitzing, working the left to right, filling gaps, not getting swallowed by blocks


All i have to say is.... Al Wilson played with these guys pretty much(on the dline)... We did well at stopping the run that year... Al was THAT good... So good that by losing him, we lost our Run Defense....

believe it buddy

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 03:28 PM
That those three tackles did one heck of a job...which then allowed their defensive ends to pin their ears back and go.

Okay no, if you knew how to analyze football and watch the games and actually knew how the Giants played their defense you'd understand. Their tackles are BAD.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 03:29 PM
Giants DT did a good enough job stopping the run that the DE's could rush the passer. Also, you may have missed the huge sack that Jay Alford had and the pressure Justin Tuck put on the QB from the DT position.

Alford did well, but overall their DT's are poor.

Secondly, Tuck is a DE - as I'm sure you know. They put him there to rush the passer because their DT's blow rear and can't do it.

The Giants have one of the worst interior DL's in the NFL.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 03:30 PM
Okay no, if you knew how to analyze football and watch the games and actually knew how the Giants played their defense you'd understand. Their tackles are BAD.

whoa.... you know your talking to MB right man?

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 03:33 PM
whoa.... you know your talking to MB right man?

Is that like talking to the Giants defensive coordinator?

Giants fans even think their defensive tackles suck, I'd trust Giants fans over a guy who doesn't realize what the Giants do in order to get a push in the middle considering the people they have at the position can't do it. They have Manuel Wright on their roster. Enough said.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 03:37 PM
Is that like talking to the Giants defensive coordinator?

Giants fans even think their defensive tackles suck, I'd trust Giants fans over a guy who doesn't realize what the Giants do in order to get a push in the middle considering the people they have at the position can't do it. They have Manuel Wright on their roster. Enough said.

wow... MB... can we get a response please.... Dream has you by the balls right now

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 03:38 PM
They Giants DT might not be pro bowl material... but they are far from sucking! They have their run stuffers and then they put in Tuck to get him on the field. The Giants GM says DE's are like Pitchers in baseball.... you can never have enough good ones... the Giants use DE's at Linebacker, DE and DT. DE's are usually very athletic and it makes a lot of since if you think about it... it doesn't mean the DT suck...just the Giants like to use the most athletic talent they have to get to the QB.

The Giants had one mission versus the Pats.... Get to Brady.... Putting in DE's worked. If the Giants were playing the Chargers... I bet they leave those DT's in longer with a new mission.... Stop the Chargers running game.

Giants coaches are smart... they understand their players strenghts and weaknesses very well. They put in the personel that best suits their situation.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 03:39 PM
Was that sack Alford's first tackle of the season? Dream is right, the Giants DT's are bad. I can't tell you how many times through the season, I'd see formations with Kiwi and Strahan on the ends and Umenyiora and Tuck inside.

Fortunately, it worked for them. Could we creat formations that put Crowder inside on passing downs? Sure. I think on 3rd and long a line of Moss, Doom, Crowder and Thomas would work nicely.

The problem right now is in a Bates system...we don't see too many 3rd and long situations

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 03:40 PM
The Giants' DTs do their job on running downs. If they were that weak, I can't believe Belickick wouldn't have exploited them more up the middle. They use Tuck at DT on pass downs because they just don't wanna play fair. 3 stud pass rushers??? Tuck weighs 275 and that allows him to outquick the Cs and Gs yet still have some bulk on draws, etc.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 03:44 PM
The Giants' DTs do their job on running downs. If they were that weak, I can't believe Belickick wouldn't have exploited them more up the middle. They use Tuck at DT on pass downs because they just don't wanna play fair. 3 stud pass rushers??? Tuck weighs 275 and that allows him to outquick the Cs and Gs yet still have some bulk on draws, etc.

In 2006, we used Dumervil as a DT several times................Try that now, with him and Thomas, moss and Crowder at DE's..............Elvis is very strong, so, that could actually be used from time to time.

topscribe
02-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Is that like talking to the Giants defensive coordinator?

Giants fans even think their defensive tackles suck, I'd trust Giants fans over a guy who doesn't realize what the Giants do in order to get a push in the middle considering the people they have at the position can't do it. They have Manuel Wright on their roster. Enough said.

Well, poor or not, that D-line owned the Pats O-line last night.

Wish the Broncos' line was "poor" like that. *sigh*

------

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 03:46 PM
Was that sack Alford's first tackle of the season? Dream is right, the Giants DT's are bad. I can't tell you how many times through the season, I'd see formations with Kiwi and Strahan on the ends and Umenyiora and Tuck inside.

Fortunately, it worked for them. Could we creat formations that put Crowder inside on passing downs? Sure. I think on 3rd and long a line of Moss, Doom, Crowder and Thomas would work nicely.

The problem right now is in a Bates system...we don't see too many 3rd and long situations

coach u are a brilliant football mind....

Bates left.... What system do we run this year? Coyer's bend but dont break system worked well and we had more than 6 wins.....

We need to stop hiring morons to run this defense.....



BRING BACK RAY RHODES!!!!

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 03:46 PM
They put in the personel that best suits their situation.

You can sugar coat it any way you want it, but the do what they do on defense (especially with Tuck) to make up for the lack of pass rush demonstrated by their interior defensive line. Their whole line is solid against the run, but their interior line is and has been suspect for several years now; and they've been struggling to address it ever since they drafted Joseph, oh about five years ago.

The situation is (A) their defensive tackles aren't that great so (B) in order to get pressure on the quarterback, they slide in guys like Tuck to get the production necessary.

They do it more than on just passing downs as well. The fact that Tuck started only 2 games this year and registered numbers better than 90% of defensive end starters in the league is living proof that in order to make up for their interior defensive line short comings, they had to adjust the way they played their ball.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 03:47 PM
well pinch me now

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 03:51 PM
You can sugar coat it any way you want it, but the do what they do on defense (especially with Tuck) to make up for the lack of pass rush demonstrated by their interior defensive line. Their whole line is solid against the run, but their interior line is and has been suspect for several years now; and they've been struggling to address it ever since they drafted Joseph, oh about five years ago.

The situation is (A) their defensive tackles aren't that great so (B) in order to get pressure on the quarterback, they slide in guys like Tuck to get the production necessary.

They do it more than on just passing downs as well. The fact that Tuck started only 2 games this year and registered numbers better than 90% of defensive end starters in the league is living proof that in order to make up for their interior defensive line short comings, they had to adjust the way they played their ball.

So are you saying if they had players like Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey at DT they would be even better on defense?

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 03:56 PM
So are you saying if they had players like Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey at DT they would be even better on defense?

how much better could a Dline have looked against one of the BEST Olines in the league....?

unfathomable how good they looked

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 03:58 PM
how much better could a Dline have looked against one of the BEST Olines in the league....?

unfathomable how good they looked

Yeah, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way.... We all saw how good the Giants D-line played, but if you look at it the other way you could say that if you had a O-line that could protect the QB the Patriots could of one. So maybe we need to look at it that way and get some guys in to protect Cutler.

topscribe
02-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Far as the D-line itself goes, the Giants demonstrated in no uncertain terms
how good they can make a secondary look. Moss was spot on:

"Moss referred to the Giants' secondary as 'ordinary,' and gave all the credit
to the front four.

" 'I think they wanted to get after Tommy [Brady], and they did that,' said
Moss. 'I heard the fans screaming, and when I looked back, he was down' "
("Hasmarks." Retrieved from http://myespn.go.com/profile/hashmarks).

The Broncos' secondary is far superior to the Giants'. Several times, I saw
Pats WRs out there all alone, but no QB to throw it to them, or a pass thrown
way off mark.

How good would the Broncos' CBs look with that kind of rush? *sigh*

------

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Yeah, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way.... We all saw how good the Giants D-line played, but if you look at it the other way you could say that if you had a O-line that could protect the QB the Patriots could of one. So maybe we need to look at it that way and get some guys in to protect Cutler.

Which is easier to find...a pro-bowl DT or a pro-bowl LT?

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Yeah, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way.... We all saw how good the Giants D-line played, but if you look at it the other way you could say that if you had a O-line that could protect the QB the Patriots could of one. So maybe we need to look at it that way and get some guys in to protect Cutler.

But that OLine has more than 1 pro-bowler and was acknowledged as one of the best in the league prior to last night...except for kaczur. that dude sux.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 04:04 PM
Which is easier to find...a pro-bowl DT or a pro-bowl LT?

LT.... That's why when you have a top 12 pick like the Broncos do you need to at least try to get one of the top DT... help improve your odds.

DenverBronkHoes
02-04-2008, 04:04 PM
pressure the QB if u wanna win games......

period

getting great corners will get you nothing more than being beat when it matters most... the rest of the game they will cover well....

turftoad
02-04-2008, 04:06 PM
Attack the pass form the point of origin. The "G" men showed it works.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 04:07 PM
LT.... That's why when you have a top 12 pick like the Broncos do you need to at least try to get one of the top DT... help improve your odds.

IF there is a pro-bowl DT within reach of the #12 pick. Right now, Dorsey and Ellis appear to both be easy top 5 picks. No way our #12 gets us up there unless we give up alot more picks. Not something I'm prepared to do when we have holes that need filled.

BOSSHOGG30
02-04-2008, 04:09 PM
IF there is a pro-bowl DT within reach of the #12 pick. Right now, Dorsey and Ellis appear to both be easy top 5 picks. No way our #12 gets us up there unless we give up alot more picks. Not something I'm prepared to do when we have holes that need filled.

We've already said... you get pressure on the QB... those average talented secondary and linebackers look like studs..... Build that D-line and we won't have as many holes... you will see.

Don't build the D-line and we will still have holes. Champ and Dre didn't look like pro bowlers last season.... if they didn't have some rep behind their names we would be looking for another CB.

Get D-Line!

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 04:14 PM
Six of one/half dozen of the other. if we can't move the ball, the defense will be on the field all day. If we can't get the ball back, the offense is always playing from behind. We spent 3 picks on rebuilding the line last year. We can trade our picks in 2 consecutive drafts to rebuild one area of the team and expect to compete.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 04:28 PM
So are you saying if they had players like Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey at DT they would be even better on defense?

Defensive tackle is a hard position to translate your college game to the NFL; but I'd have no doubts that their defense could be better with (one of) those guys on their rotation, line-up and roster.

CoachChaz
02-04-2008, 04:30 PM
Defensive tackle is a hard position to translate your college game to the NFL; but I'd have no doubts that their defense could be better with (one of) those guys on their rotation, line-up and roster.

For that matter...Bryant, Balmer, Sims, Moore, Law, Pressley, Rubin, Dotson, Hayden, etc...would all be an improvement to the DL.

Requiem / The Dagda
02-04-2008, 04:44 PM
For that matter...Bryant, Balmer, Sims, Moore, Law, Pressley, Rubin, Dotson, Hayden, etc...would all be an improvement to the DL.

Here and many places like the Giants. I like Thomas potential and McKinley as a rotational guy playing the 3-technique; but we need a couple other guys in there that can play the 1-technique and do their jobs there. Pick your poison, but I'd like to see a guy like Rubin or Law fill those roles. Moore and Bryant could play that as well; perhaps Hayden. I see Balmer, Sims, Pressley, etc. as more of 3-technique guys. I'll take just about anyone at this point.

Hell, If I gained 130 more pounds, I'd be 6'0 - 310, put me in.

HolyDiver
02-04-2008, 04:49 PM
For that matter...Bryant, Balmer, Sims, Moore, Law, Pressley, Rubin, Dotson, Hayden, etc...would all be an improvement to the DL.


Thank you for not saying Frank Okam.

AFGAHNI_BATTLE_DONKEY
02-04-2008, 05:44 PM
tuck didnt do crap his first 2 years.

give our young linemen time

Skinny
02-04-2008, 06:22 PM
We can only hope Mikey, again, has seen the D-line issue this past Season and is willing to spend not just a 1st round pick on the position, but multiple picks.

The last Draft was a great indication he has and he did just that. This year should have the DT position issue at the front of 'needs to address' list again in this Draft ... we can only hope so and again Mikey sees it as a major issue ... which it is.

Or Bronco Players and fans will be sitting at home on the Couch again, watching the Playoffs and the SB.

Nobody probably knows more than Bronco fans that both the D-line and O-line are the most essential units in football. Spoiled by one and destroyed by the another ...

hamrob
02-04-2008, 09:39 PM
I hate to bust anyones bubble...but Dline was only part of why the Giant's won that game. And by the way...I was rooting for them. Here are a couple other big reasons:

Ely Manning
Motivation
Pats Overconfidence
Brady's ankle

There are lots of reasons that put the Giants on top...the Dline was only part of it. One could say...that the Pats don't have a bad dline themselves!

Lonestar
02-04-2008, 09:41 PM
I hate to bust anyones bubble...but Dline was only part of why the Giant's won that game. And by the way...I was rooting for them. Here are a couple other big reasons:

Ely Manning
Motivation
Pats Overconfidence
Brady's ankle

There are lots of reasons that put the Giants on top...the Dline was only part of it. One could say...that the Pats don't have a bad dline themselves!

Did last night:salute:

hamrob
02-04-2008, 09:43 PM
The Patriots had imo the best offense in history, only to lose to a 14 point under dog. This game goes to show you that defense wins championships and a complete team starts with a complete front 4. Strahan and company were incredibly dominant and threw Brady around like a rag doll the whole game. Brady was knocked down over 18 times and sacked 4 times. Bronco fans, it is essential to have a dominant D-line. We can have all the superstar CB's, LB's and Safeties in the world but if we don't plug in some monsters at DT and some hungry DE's then I think were going to continue being on the outside looking in.I'd argue that the Pats have a dominent Dline....do you think differently? How did they fare? Point taken...Dline is important...but that alone isn't goint to win you a world championship!

hamrob
02-04-2008, 09:45 PM
Did last night:salute:I thought their Dline played well...Ely Manning played better.

I think Brady throwing off of his backfoot...his right foot...had alot to do with them losing. Don't get me wrong...I'm glad they lost! But...there was much more to it then the Giants dominant Dline.

Bronco9798
02-04-2008, 09:48 PM
I thought their Dline played well...Ely Manning played better.

I think Brady throwing off of his backfoot...his right foot...had alot to do with them losing. Don't get me wrong...I'm glad they lost! But...there was much more to it then the Giants dominant Dline.

Everything in football works from the front to the back. When it works up front, it trickles to the back. That's why games are won up front.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-04-2008, 09:52 PM
NE gave up 17 points total...I'd say their DL played pretty well.

Lonestar
02-04-2008, 09:55 PM
I thought their Dline played well...Ely Manning played better.

I think Brady throwing off of his backfoot...his right foot...had alot to do with them losing. Don't get me wrong...I'm glad they lost! But...there was much more to it then the Giants dominant Dline.


I really think this game was won by feagles pinning NE into their red zone almost every night.. Well not won, but I'd have given that man the game ball. and good raise..

DenverBronkHoes
02-05-2008, 02:08 AM
I hate to bust anyones bubble...but Dline was only part of why the Giant's won that game. And by the way...I was rooting for them. Here are a couple other big reasons:

Ely Manning
Motivation
Pats Overconfidence
Brady's ankle

There are lots of reasons that put the Giants on top...the Dline was only part of it. One could say...that the Pats don't have a bad dline themselves!

who the hell were you rooting for?

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 08:23 AM
tuck didnt do crap his first 2 years.

give our young linemen time

EXACTLY !!!!!!! ..............I remember Bert Berry was not good against the run at first, but later became a pretty darn good all-around DE................Not elite, but very solid and productive.................Dumervil will only get better, especially with better DT's..........

atwater27
02-05-2008, 10:21 AM
So if Shanahan and Bowlen don't get the message about the importance of D-line above everything else (but QB which we are set at) after watching the Super Bowl, I have no interest in them being involved with the Broncos anymore. Not saying I don't like or respect them, but they need to wake up on the defensive line issue.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 10:23 AM
I'm never going to comprehend this i guess. 3 DE's and a DT in the last 2 drafts and it still isn't enough for everyone. I think I'll be more upset if we spend more picks on an area we've already attempted to address.

MHCBill
02-05-2008, 10:25 AM
If (and it's a huge, improbable if) Jared Allen is not franchised or resigned then Denver must sign him.

I'm okay with even making him one of the top three paid DE's in the league. Not that he is a top three DE, but he probably is top 10.

He's young. A position of need. Good size and strength. Top 10 at his position. Defense starts up front. The kind of "eccentric" player the D needs.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 10:27 AM
I'm never going to comprehend this i guess.

Well said coach, I couldn't agree more.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 10:29 AM
We drafted ONE DT lately...............Is that already our quota? .............Can we please just draft one more this April?

atwater27
02-05-2008, 10:34 AM
You just contradicted yourself HD.

atwater27
02-05-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm never going to comprehend this i guess. 3 DE's and a DT in the last 2 drafts and it still isn't enough for everyone. I think I'll be more upset if we spend more picks on an area we've already attempted to address.

My problem is that when we actually have a decent DE in Betrand Berry, Reggie Hayward, etc, we let them go, don't even think about paying them. My problem is also why we aren't trading for d-lineman. i am talking about solid trades. And I do think we should sign Haynesworth if he is available, or Jared Allen. or freaking BOTH! Break the bank for them and it will do more for our championship chances than any other possible thing we could do. Just ask the Giants.

MHCBill
02-05-2008, 10:42 AM
I disagree Atwater about Allen.

I don't think we'll even have the opportunity, but he is one I would sign and not think we wasted our money.

Just my opinion.

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 10:42 AM
You just contradicted yourself HD.

What?

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 10:46 AM
My problem is that when we actually have a decent DE in Betrand Berry, Reggie Hayward, etc, we let them go, don't even think about paying them. My problem is also why we aren't trading for d-lineman. i am talking about solid trades. And I do think we should sign Haynesworth if he is available, or Jared Allen. or freaking BOTH! Break the bank for them and it will do more for our championship chances than any other possible thing we could do. Just ask the Giants.

The benefit we have now is that we "could" have 3 solid DE's.

But I'm not willing to replicate what the Giants have done at all costs. They have solid DE's and mediocre DT's...just like we could have. But if Thomas pans out, we are really in better shape.

There are better D-Lines that didn't make the playoffs and lesser d-lines that did better than NY. One good game plan does not dictate a season.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-05-2008, 10:46 AM
Allen is an alcy who is 1 drink away from being suspended. No Thanx. Ya'll cried about Henry, but WANT Allen. I don't get it.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-05-2008, 10:47 AM
The benefit we have now is that we "could" have 3 solid DE's.

But I'm not willing to replicate what the Giants have done at all costs. They have solid DE's and mediocre DT's...just like we could have. But if Thomas pans out, we are really in better shape.

There are better D-Lines that didn't make the playoffs and lesser d-lines that did better than NY. One good game plan does not dictate a season.

We need to improve at all 3 levels. LBs are part of this equation..as is a run helping Safety.

atwater27
02-05-2008, 11:01 AM
The benefit we have now is that we "could" have 3 solid DE's.

But I'm not willing to replicate what the Giants have done at all costs. They have solid DE's and mediocre DT's...just like we could have. But if Thomas pans out, we are really in better shape.

There are better D-Lines that didn't make the playoffs and lesser d-lines that did better than NY. One good game plan does not dictate a season.

In My opinion the best defensive lines in the NFL are (In no order) Chicago (when healthy), the Packers, the Texans (Obviously, Kubiak learned the lesson from years of watching our d-line), Jacksonville, Minnesota, the Patriots, Giants, Seahawks, Bucs, Titans, Skins, Steelers, Chargers.

Of those 13 teams, 10 were playoff teams, and the Vikes were a witches tittie from getting in. That should send a clear message to any coach who wants to succeed. Fortify your defensive line, pay out some serious coin or high draft picks for those front four. Everything else is secondary.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 11:56 AM
In My opinion the best defensive lines in the NFL are (In no order) Chicago (when healthy), the Packers, the Texans (Obviously, Kubiak learned the lesson from years of watching our d-line), Jacksonville, Minnesota, the Patriots, Giants, Seahawks, Bucs, Titans, Skins, Steelers, Chargers.

Of those 13 teams, 10 were playoff teams, and the Vikes were a witches tittie from getting in. That should send a clear message to any coach who wants to succeed. Fortify your defensive line, pay out some serious coin or high draft picks for those front four. Everything else is secondary.

Interesting that you left the Colts off that list. They were 2nd in the NFL in pass defense and had a beter run defense than SD, TB, HOU, CHI.

Kind of puts a wrinkle in the whole thought process when Indy shows up on the list.

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 12:04 PM
We drafted ONE DT lately...............Is that already our quota? .............Can we please just draft one more this April?


Some think one per decade it sufficient. The DL has been neglected with sober, sane day one picks since Price was drafted in 1998.

Probably time to stock up with at least one day one pick and one-day two for rotational backup and development.

That way he does not need to "waste" picks on them for another decade..

atwater27
02-05-2008, 12:10 PM
Interesting that you left the Colts off that list. They were 2nd in the NFL in pass defense and had a beter run defense than SD, TB, HOU, CHI.

Kind of puts a wrinkle in the whole thought process when Indy shows up on the list.

Exception not the norm.

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 12:26 PM
We need to improve at all 3 levels. LBs are part of this equation..as is a run helping Safety.

If you have a great DL good LBs you have almost zero need for a a safety that is a permanent part of the front seven..

Being able to bring one in from time to time is nice, but not an absolute.. Like it is today and has been for almost as long as I can remember..

strong safety (SS)
a kind of safety on defense, as opposed to a free safety. This is a central defensive back; originally, the term indicated that he lined up on the strong side of the field and covered the tight end.

free safety (FS)
a player position on defense. Free safeties typically play deep, or "center field", and often have the pass defense responsibility of assisting other defensive backs in deep coverage (compared to strong safeties, who usually have an assigned receiver).

HolyDiver
02-05-2008, 12:37 PM
If you have a great DL good LBs you have almost zero need for a a safety that is a permanent part of the front seven..

Being able to bring one in from time to time is nice, but not an absolute.. Like it is today and has been for almost as long as I can remember..

strong safety (SS)
a kind of safety on defense, as opposed to a free safety. This is a central defensive back; originally, the term indicated that he lined up on the strong side of the field and covered the tight end.

free safety (FS)
a player position on defense. Free safeties typically play deep, or "center field", and often have the pass defense responsibility of assisting other defensive backs in deep coverage (compared to strong safeties, who usually have an assigned receiver).


Good point...........

Cutler6MVP
02-05-2008, 03:32 PM
...and I completely agree. Hence my preference to pursue a guy like Briggs.

I am from Chicago, and watch many of their games, as long as it doesnt interfere with ours. I am comfortable in saying Briggs is a product of the system. If he came to Denver, he would be nothing more than an expensive bust.

Cutler6MVP
02-05-2008, 03:38 PM
We need to improve at all 3 levels. LBs are part of this equation..as is a run helping Safety.

Personally, I think Winborn could be a main stay with us. He seemed to play real well when he actually played....

Gold needs to go, and he needs to go now. We need to draft/sign a LB. I dont care if it is a MLB or OLB, we need atleast one more.

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Personally, I think Winborn could be a main stay with us. He seemed to play real well when he actually played....

Gold needs to go, and he needs to go now. We need to draft/sign a LB. I dont care if it is a MLB or OLB, we need atleast one more.

Gold can stay as a back up and ST'er with a 50% cut in pay. If no cut he gets cut..

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:07 PM
I am from Chicago, and watch many of their games, as long as it doesnt interfere with ours. I am comfortable in saying Briggs is a product of the system. If he came to Denver, he would be nothing more than an expensive bust.

What does this have to do with anything? By that rationale, you'd have to say that Urlacher is also a product of the system. You going to tell me that teams...in an effort to avoid the DL and Urlacher...always run sweeps, which pads the stats of Briggs? Give me a break.

Baltimore always had a better D-line and MLB than Chicago, but how many of their OLB's averaged over 100 tackles a season? If being a product of the system ALWAYS dictates success, then it has to be for more than one team.

Cutler6MVP
02-05-2008, 04:20 PM
What does this have to do with anything? By that rationale, you'd have to say that Urlacher is also a product of the system. You going to tell me that teams...in an effort to avoid the DL and Urlacher...always run sweeps, which pads the stats of Briggs? Give me a break.

Baltimore always had a better D-line and MLB than Chicago, but how many of their OLB's averaged over 100 tackles a season? If being a product of the system ALWAYS dictates success, then it has to be for more than one team.

This is a joke right? Have you never heard of a player that is a product of the system THE DEFENSE RUNS? Briggs is clearly that player, we are not going to change our complete defensive packages/system, etc... just to accommodate one player.

Briggs will not be as successful away from Chicago.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:23 PM
This is a joke right? Have you never heard of a player that is a product of the system THE DEFENSE RUNS? Briggs is clearly that player, we are not going to change our complete defensive packages/system, etc... just to accommodate one player.

Briggs will not be as successful away from Chicago.

How is he a product of the system? Somewhere along the line it apparently became illegal for any team to have two very good linebackers. I'm so tired of hearing how this guy is only good because of that guy and so on. It's old and ridiculous. If one guy on a team is a "product of the system"...then shouldn't the other guys be as well?

Cutler6MVP
02-05-2008, 04:28 PM
How is he a product of the system? Somewhere along the line it apparently became illegal for any team to have two very good linebackers. I'm so tired of hearing how this guy is only good because of that guy and so on. It's old and ridiculous. If one guy on a team is a "product of the system"...then shouldn't the other guys be as well?

Hes a product of the stupid scheme. Many will agree with me on this, many in Chicago agree with it as well. Get Briggs out of your head, its just not happening, and for good reasonings.

Why dont you go ask Clinton Portis how it feels to be running in Washinton and not Denver now. Ports is a good back, as Briggs is a good backer as well. Cliton would be considered a superstar back right now if he was still in Denver. Just like Briggs is starting to get the name of a superstar LB with Chicago.

CoachChaz
02-05-2008, 04:45 PM
Hes a product of the stupid scheme. Many will agree with me on this, many in Chicago agree with it as well. Get Briggs out of your head, its just not happening, and for good reasonings.

Why dont you go ask Clinton Portis how it feels to be running in Washinton and not Denver now. Ports is a good back, as Briggs is a good backer as well. Cliton would be considered a superstar back right now if he was still in Denver. Just like Briggs is starting to get the name of a superstar LB with Chicago.

Offense...defense...offense...defense...offense... defense.

Big difference.

turftoad
02-05-2008, 04:47 PM
Just a reminder to everyone.........

Offense fills seats................ DEFENSE wins championships.

Lonestar
02-05-2008, 05:24 PM
Just a reminder to everyone.........

Offense fills seats................ DEFENSE wins championships.

PAT will like that!! .. mikey does not have a clue!!.

gobroncsnv
02-05-2008, 08:36 PM
Just a reminder to everyone.........

Offense fills seats................ DEFENSE wins championships.

As we saw in the Super Bowl, Defense PUTS a good offense on its' seats.

Cutler6MVP
02-05-2008, 09:59 PM
Offense...defense...offense...defense...offense... defense.

Big difference.

Same situation, there isnt a big difference. Its a way to show you that hes a product of the system, just like Briggs.

DenBronx
02-05-2008, 10:19 PM
Just a reminder to everyone.........

Offense fills seats................ DEFENSE wins championships.


i totally agree. if we had a top 5 rated defense then our team would be at least a 11-5 team. but our defense sucks so bad that our offense even looks bad, thus leading to a terrible season.

Lonestar
02-06-2008, 10:45 PM
i totally agree. if we had a top 5 rated defense then our team would be at least a 11-5 team. but our defense sucks so bad that our offense even looks bad, thus leading to a terrible season.

One would think with all that time resting on the sideline the Offense could score more..

For that matter all the plays the offense makes between the 20's the defense would be well rested..

fcspikeit
02-06-2008, 11:37 PM
One would think with all that time resting on the sideline the Offense could score more..

For that matter all the plays the offense makes between the 20's the defense would be well rested..

I don't think our offense needs rest.. some consistency would be nice though.. Marshall was the only consistent WR we had. Stockley was good but he was being moved around from 2 to 3. Our O-line was not consistent and don't even get me started on the RB position.

I don't remember thinking our Defense looked tired either. IMO they looked over matched at the LOS.

After watching the Superbowl, its hard to believe we have over looked the D-line for so long. A great D-line makes the whole defense look good. They took away the deep pass because Brady couldn't take a deep drop.

In my mind there is no question about what is more important, A great D-line or secondary. It is because of this I want us to do what it takes to move up and get Ellis. I truly believe he would make the biggest impact of anyone we could draft. More then 3 or 4 picks put together...

I hope Shanahan was watching the Superbowl, Maybe this will be the year he goes out and really tries to get the best DT on the board. :pray:

CoachChaz
02-06-2008, 11:42 PM
I don't think our offense needs rest.. some consistency would be nice though.. Marshall was the only consistent WR we had. Stockley was good but he was being moved around from 2 to 3. Our O-line was not consistent and don't even get me started on the RB position.

I don't remember thinking our Defense looked tired either. IMO they looked over matched at the LOS.

After watching the Superbowl, its hard to believe we have over looked the D-line for so long. A great D-line makes the whole defense look good. They took away the deep pass because Brady couldn't take a deep drop.

In my mind there is no question about what is more important, A great D-line or secondary. It is because of this I want us to do what it takes to move up and get Ellis. I truly believe he would make the biggest impact of anyone we could draft. More then 3 or 4 picks put together...

I hope Shanahan was watching the Superbowl, Maybe this will be the year he goes out and really tries to get the best DT on the board. :pray:

I think the fact that we drafted 3 DLinemen last year is confirmation that the team realizes we needed DL help. For God's sake, let these kids mature in a solid system for a season or two. Marshall didn't have an amazing first year and alot of people wanted to move up for Calvin Johnson last year. Now look.

Patience people

fcspikeit
02-06-2008, 11:51 PM
I think the fact that we drafted 3 DLinemen last year is confirmation that the team realizes we needed DL help. For God's sake, let these kids mature in a solid system for a season or two. Marshall didn't have an amazing first year and alot of people wanted to move up for Calvin Johnson last year. Now look.

Patience people


I wasn't one of those people..

Dorsey and Ellis look to be the best DT's coming out of the draft in many years.. There are drafts where the top DT's aren't anywhere close to Ellis and Dorsey.. That's all I'm saying. It's not just about taking the best DT's because we are weak at the position. Those 2 look to be some of the best players coming out of the draft and at that position you just don't find players like that very often

Lonestar
02-07-2008, 03:12 AM
I don't think our offense needs rest.. some consistency would be nice though.. Marshall was the only consistent WR we had. Stockley was good but he was being moved around from 2 to 3. Our O-line was not consistent and don't even get me started on the RB position.

I don't remember thinking our Defense looked tired either. IMO they looked over matched at the LOS.
After watching the Superbowl, its hard to believe we have over looked the D-line for so long. A great D-line makes the whole defense look good. They took away the deep pass because Brady couldn't take a deep drop.

In my mind there is no question about what is more important, A great D-line or secondary. It is because of this I want us to do what it takes to move up and get Ellis. I truly believe he would make the biggest impact of anyone we could draft. More then 3 or 4 picks put together...

I hope Shanahan was watching the Superbowl, Maybe this will be the year he goes out and really tries to get the best DT on the board. :pray:

I was joking with that comment!!

mikey has been infatuated with LB's for as long as I can remember In fact Price was a LB for much of his career in college. So he might have been a mistake ;) mikey thinking he could play LB at this level..

This team has sucked at the LOS since the Superbowl years and then the DL was nothing to write home about a bunch of almost over the hill guys,,

mikey needs to step aside as GM and let someone else make those draft day decisions. IMO Give him a shopping list of who you wants and then take a few days off. Let a PRO do the job..

ktrain
02-09-2008, 08:45 PM
if he played behind our offensive line. It is amazing how a talented QB (like Cutler or even Brady) can look rather ordinary behind the likes of a o-line that is dominated by the oppositions defensive front 7.

I thinks it is clear, there are three must haves in the modern NFL

1. A franchise QB
2. A dominant d-line
3. A dominant o-line

All the rest are nice to haves

Lonestar
02-09-2008, 08:46 PM
if he played behind our offensive line. It is amazing how a talented QB (like Cutler or even Brady) can look rather ordinary behind the likes of a o-line that is dominated by the oppositions defensive front 7.

I thinks it is clear, there are three must haves in the modern NFL

1. A franchise QB
2. A dominant d-line
3. A dominant o-line

All the rest are nice to haves


good post :welcome: to our world..

Broncospsycho77
02-09-2008, 09:02 PM
IMO, what the Giants really showed us is the importance of the non-blitzing D-Line. Just rushing 4 players at time, the huge, bulky Dline of the Giants were able to give Brady enough trouble to get off his rythm, without sacrificing linebackers and safeties, and then throw in the blitz later... the strength of the Big 4 is key to getting the right kind of pressure.

omac
02-09-2008, 11:29 PM
I wasn't one of those people..

Dorsey and Ellis look to be the best DT's coming out of the draft in many years.. There are drafts where the top DT's aren't anywhere close to Ellis and Dorsey.. That's all I'm saying. It's not just about taking the best DT's because we are weak at the position. Those 2 look to be some of the best players coming out of the draft and at that position you just don't find players like that very often

I was one of those people, only because Calvin Johnson is really that good; only a back injury and reluctance early on by Martz to use him slowed him down this season. But I didn't expect our run defense installed by Bates to be this terrible.

SmilinAssasSin27
02-09-2008, 11:33 PM
I agree that NYG showed the importance of a solid DLine, but I also think we should remember that Belichick's pride, arrogance or stupidity didn't allow him to adjust and max protect in the second half. I truly believe if he woulda swalloed that pride of his and kept more folks in, Brady woulda gotten the ball around to his WRs.

ktrain
02-11-2008, 08:34 PM
good post :welcome: to our world..

Thanks....over from the freak, gawd is it dead over there