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Lonestar
12-13-2009, 03:21 AM
By Lindsay H. Jones
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/13/2009 01:00:00 AM MST


Here in the Rocky Mountains, we like to think we know a thing or two about The Franchise Quarterback.

We know when we've got one, and we'll spend the better part of a decade looking for another. And just when we think we've found one, he's gone, and we all wonder what went wrong.

From John Elway to Brian Griese to Jake Plummer to Jay Cutler to Kyle Orton, the topic of the franchise quarterback is a touchy one for Broncos fans.

Meanwhile, across the line today in Indianapolis, Denver faces Peyton Manning, the very definition of a Franchise Quarterback.

"Peyton Manning is the poster boy for franchise quarterbacks," Broncos quarterback Chris Simms said. "It's a great thing if you get drafted there and it works."

Manning was the Colts' No. 1 overall draft pick in 1998 and he has played in every game for the Colts since. He's thrown for more than 49,000 yards, been named to nine Pro Bowls, won three NFL MVP awards and was the Super Bowl MVP.

All the accolades and superlatives aside, Manning and the Colts illustrate the ideal way to build a franchise around a star quarterback, something most organizations try, and few do.

The Colts finished the 1997 season 3-13, and new general manager Bill Polian and coach Jim Mora Sr. took Manning with the No. 1 overall pick. By 1999, the Colts were 13-3 and back in the playoffs, and they've been the model of consistency ever since.

It was what former Broncos coach Mike Shanahan at one point envisioned doing around Cutler.

But here's a major difference as to why Polian's strategy has worked so well: Not only has Manning panned out, so have many of the players Indianapolis drafted to play around him: first-rounders such as running back Edgerrin James (1999), receiver Reggie Wayne (2001), defensive end Dwight Freeney (2002), tight end Dallas Clark (2003), running back Joseph Addai (2006) and receiver Anthony Gonzalez (2007), as well as second-round safety Bob Sanders

Quarterbacks
View slide show of Broncos QB Kyle Orton.
View slide show of Colts QB Peyton Manning.
(2004).

During that same span, only linebackers Al Wilson (1999) and D.J. Williams (2004) have been long-term bona fide star players for the Broncos. The Broncos used one first-round draft pick on a quarterback this decade, Cutler, and first-year coach Josh McDaniels — though never in exact terms — clearly didn't deem him to be a franchise quarterback.

Perhaps that is because McDaniels isn't as fully sold on the notion of a "Franchise Quarterback" as other coaches.

"I don't know what the definition of that is, because there are a lot of quarterbacks who have had great success in this league that, I don't how you define them as franchise quarterbacks," McDaniels said. "What's a guy who is not a franchise quarterback? I don't know. I just want our guy to win."
The question remains, though, of how far a team can go without an elite quarterback. Of the past 10 Super Bowl champions, eight were quarterbacked by players who fit the "franchise" mold: Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger (twice), New England's Tom Brady (three times), Manning for the Colts and his brother Eli for the Giants, and Kurt Warner for the Rams.

"If you have one, you are probably going to be making the playoffs," said NFL Network analyst Steve Mariucci, a former Lions and 49ers coach. "When you look at the teams that are going to be there, by and large, they've got guys that are going to the Pro Bowl or have been there before."

For the record, Mariucci includes Orton in a group of what he calls "very good" quarterbacks, a group that also includes guys such as Cutler in Chicago, Dallas' Tony Romo, Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers and San Diego's Philip Rivers.

But can Orton be a franchise quarterback in Denver? This is the final year of his contract, and he will be a restricted free agent after the season. How the Broncos choose to handle him after that will be telling. The Broncos will be able to match any other offer Orton receives this offseason, should he make it to the open market next spring without having signed a new contract.

"That's all on the franchise. That's all on the organization," Orton said. "That's probably the only way you can decide that, is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."

Lindsay H. Jones: 303-954-1262 or ljones@denverpost.com

Manning seems to have the Broncos' number
No player has caused more heartache for the Broncos this decade than Colts quarterback Peyton Manning. Indianapolis is 6-2 against Denver in the Manning era, and one of those losses came in what was, for the Colts, a throwaway game at the end of the 2004 regular season when Manning saw little action. Manning's numbers against the Broncos are staggering: 1,945 yards passing with 17 touchdowns and only three interceptions. Here's a game-by-game breakdown of the damage Manning has wrought against the Broncos:

2001: A 29-10 final-week Colts' victory, with Manning throwing for a pedestrian 191 yards, two touchdowns, one interception.

2002: The Colts won in overtime 23-20, but Manning did not throw a touchdown pass and had a passer rating of 65.4, his lowest ever against Denver.

2003: In Week 15, the Broncos rolled 31-17, and Manning threw for only 146 yards, with no touchdowns.

2003: Two weeks later, in the first round of the playoffs, Manning was spectacular, throwing for 377 yards in a 41-10 victory. He finished with a perfect passer rating, 158.3.

2004: Manning started but was pulled after throwing two passes in a 33-14 loss that had no bearing on Indy's postseason seeding.

2004: Two weeks later, Manning again torched the Broncos in a playoff rout. He completed 27-of-33 passes for a mind-boggling 458 yards and four touchdowns.

2006: Manning was nearly perfect in a 34-31 victory, throwing for 345 yards and three touchdowns with no interceptions, snapping Denver's five-game home winning streak.

2007: Manning threw for only 193 yards in a 38-20 early-season victory, along with three touchdown passes.

Lindsay H. Jones, The Denver Post


http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13986787

Northman
12-13-2009, 09:07 AM
Meh, i dont agree with McDaniels here although it has been proven you can win with an average QB so as long as you have the right talent and chemistry around him. However, McD should look no further than his former team and their star QB who has 3 rings to his name. I highly doubt those get accomplished with O'Connell or Cassell starting.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-13-2009, 11:55 AM
The steelers have had alot of success with their average quarterback.

Northman
12-13-2009, 12:02 PM
The steelers have had alot of success with their average quarterback.

If Big Ben is average im the president of the United States.

honz
12-13-2009, 12:12 PM
What comes first? Super bowl wins or being considered a franchise QB?

Northman
12-13-2009, 12:14 PM
What comes first? Super bowl wins or being considered a franchise QB?

Who knows. However, Manning was probably a Franchise QB (or considered one) long before he got his ring.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-13-2009, 12:15 PM
If Big Ben is average im the president of the United States.

Yeah I'm mostly joking around.

honz
12-13-2009, 12:16 PM
Would Eli Manning be considered a franchise QB if he didn't win a SB? Ben "I'mma hold this ball and then get sacked or fumble" Rothelessbooger?

Northman
12-13-2009, 12:26 PM
Would Eli Manning be considered a franchise QB if he didn't win a SB? Ben "I'mma hold this ball and then get sacked or fumble" Rothelessbooger?

Qb's get sacked in their careers, even the great ones. As far as Eli, i wouldnt necessarily put him in the "Franchise" dept. But ive seen enough from Ben to know he is worth the tag of franchise.

pnbronco
12-13-2009, 12:31 PM
What comes first? Super bowl wins or being considered a franchise QB?

What no body writes in these articles is how hard Manning works. He has the talent but that's not enough for him.

I listen on the radio (am 1510) the other day to a player that was in Indy with Manning in the early years, it was a CSU running back can not remember his name. He said that Manning is the first one in and the last one to leave including the coaches at the practice play. Then he goes home and watches more film in his home theater.

When OTA's starts he is there from day one. They also said that someone had been drafted and he called them that night and said be at the practice center at 8:00 tomorrow and we will get started working out. This player said that from the first day of OTA's till the season is over he is only about football and he expects the same from his team mates. So they is a lot more to Manning than just his talent.

Lonestar
12-13-2009, 12:49 PM
Brady was not a FQB when he was drafted. Nor was montana, Steve Young was for Tampa and that did not work out for them and he was one at SFO.

Farve was considered a bust at ATL. And we all know how that turned out.

Orton was not thought highly enough and went in the 4th round IIRC, and has a chance despite all of OUR members that think him medicore, to be one for Josh.

Not sure why all the hate for the kid is there, other than he replaced their GOD QB.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

broken12
12-13-2009, 04:41 PM
he dont believe in the label cause he doesnt have one!!

elsid13
12-13-2009, 06:16 PM
Brady was not a FQB when he was drafted. Nor was montana, Steve Young was for Tampa and that did not work out for them and he was one at SFO.

Farve was considered a bust at ATL. And we all know how that turned out.

Orton was not thought highly enough and went in the 4th round IIRC, and has a chance despite all of OUR members that think him medicore, to be one for Josh.

Not sure why all the hate for the kid is there, other than he replaced their GOD QB.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

Favre wasn't consider a bust in ATL. Jerry Glanville has stated that he nearly cried when they trade Favre after one season, because he knew that Favre had starting QB talent.

red98
12-13-2009, 07:30 PM
What comes first? Super bowl wins or being considered a franchise QB?

It depends, ask Marino and Kelly.

frauschieze
12-13-2009, 07:37 PM
Mariucci is missing a few screws if he thinks Phillip Rivers is only one of the "very good" quarterbacks and Eli Manning is a franchise QB. As much as it pains me to say, Rivers is top five. E. Manning is only considered a franchise QB because the Giants won a Super Bowl. Seems to be pretty clear cut to me.

rcsodak
06-16-2011, 09:55 PM
Always fun to look back.



By Lindsay H. Jones
The Denver Post
Po
sted: 12/13/2009 01:00:00 AM MST


Here in the Rocky Mountains, we like to think we know a thing or two about The Franchise Quarterback.

We know when we've got one, and we'll spend the better part of a decade looking for another. And just when we think we've found one, he's gone, and we all wonder what went wrong.

From John Elway to Brian Griese to Jake Plummer to Jay Cutler to Kyle Orton, the topic of the franchise quarterback is a touchy one for Broncos fans.

Meanwhile, across the line today in Indianapolis, Denver faces Peyton Manning, the very definition of a Franchise Quarterback.

"Peyton Manning is the poster boy for franchise quarterbacks," Broncos quarterback Chris Simms said. "It's a great thing if you get drafted there and it works."

Manning was the Colts' No. 1 overall draft pick in 1998 and he has played in every game for the Colts since. He's thrown for more than 49,000 yards, been named to nine Pro Bowls, won three NFL MVP awards and was the Super Bowl MVP.

All the accolades and superlatives aside, Manning and the Colts illustrate the ideal way to build a franchise around a star quarterback, something most organizations try, and few do.

The Colts finished the 1997 season 3-13, and new general manager Bill Polian and coach Jim Mora Sr. took Manning with the No. 1 overall pick. By 1999, the Colts were 13-3 and back in the playoffs, and they've been the model of consistency ever since.

It was what former Broncos coach Mike Shanahan at one point envisioned doing around Cutler.

But here's a major difference as to why Polian's strategy has worked so well: Not only has Manning panned out, so have many of the players Indianapolis drafted to play around him: first-rounders such as running back Edgerrin James (1999), receiver Reggie Wayne (2001), defensive end Dwight Freeney (2002), tight end Dallas Clark (2003), running back Joseph Addai (2006) and receiver Anthony Gonzalez (2007), as well as second-round safety Bob Sanders

Quarterbacks
View slide show of Broncos QB Kyle Orton.
View slide show of Colts QB Peyton Manning.
(2004).

During that same span, only linebackers Al Wilson (1999) and D.J. Williams (2004) have been long-term bona fide star players for the Broncos. The Broncos used one first-round draft pick on a quarterback this decade, Cutler, and first-year coach Josh McDaniels — though never in exact terms — clearly didn't deem him to be a franchise quarterback.

Perhaps that is because McDaniels isn't as fully sold on the notion of a "Franchise Quarterback" as other coaches.

"I don't know what the definition of that is, because there are a lot of quarterbacks who have had great success in this league that, I don't how you define them as franchise quarterbacks," McDaniels said. "What's a guy who is not a franchise quarterback? I don't know. I just want our guy to win."
The question remains, though, of how far a team can go without an elite quarterback. Of the past 10 Super Bowl champions, eight were quarterbacked by players who fit the "franchise" mold: Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger (twice), New England's Tom Brady (three times), Manning for the Colts and his brother Eli for the Giants, and Kurt Warner for the Rams.

"If you have one, you are probably going to be making the playoffs," said NFL Network analyst Steve Mariucci, a former Lions and 49ers coach. "When you look at the teams that are going to be there, by and large, they've got guys that are going to the Pro Bowl or have been there before."

For the record, Mariucci includes Orton in a group of what he calls "very good" quarterbacks, a group that also includes guys such as Cutler in Chicago, Dallas' Tony Romo, Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers and San Diego's Philip Rivers.

But can Orton be a franchise quarterback in Denver? This is the final year of his contract, and he will be a restricted free agent after the season. How the Broncos choose to handle him after that will be telling. The Broncos will be able to match any other offer Orton receives this offseason, should he make it to the open market next spring without having signed a new contract.

"That's all on the franchise. That's all on the organization," Orton said. "That's probably the only way you can decide that, is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."

Tned
06-16-2011, 10:03 PM
Always fun to look back.

Look back at what? A reminder of how far over his head McDaniels was? How inept he was? How he led the Broncos to the worst stretch in franchise history?

Wow, if that's your idea of fun, I would hate to see what you consider a bad time...

TXBRONC
06-16-2011, 10:27 PM
Meh, i dont agree with McDaniels here although it has been proven you can win with an average QB so as long as you have the right talent and chemistry around him. However, McD should look no further than his former team and their star QB who has 3 rings to his name. I highly doubt those get accomplished with O'Connell or Cassell starting.

Sure it's possible but doesn't happen very often that a team wins a championship with a journeyman quarterback. The last team to do it was the Buccaneers.

Canmore
06-16-2011, 10:34 PM
Sure it's possible but doesn't happen very often that a team wins a championship with a journeyman quarterback. The last team to do it was the Buccaneers.

You pretty much need a franchise quarterback to win it all. All you got to do is look at history. To win without one, takes a dominating defense and a good running game. Here is hoping Tebow lives up to the hype.

robert ethan
06-16-2011, 11:34 PM
I think Josh's point was, "how do you define them BEFORE they have major success and win Super Bowls?". Manning was first overall pick but took about 10 years before he won a SB. Roethlisberger won both his SBs with pedestrian stats. I don't think he was in the Pro Bowl either year he won. Brady was a sixth round pick who spent his previous season as a backup when he won his first SB. Warner was undrafted and kicked around the "minor leagues" of football for a few years before he even made it to the NFL. Took Elway a long time to break through, and his passer ratings weren't that great through some of the early years. If Cutler is supposed to be a "franchise" QB, he hasn't shown any symptoms so far. I think his won/loss record is barely over .500 for his career, and his passing stats were never above middle of the pack over 6 seasons. Phillip Rivers has great numbers but no trophy. Eli Manning has a trophy and mediocre numbers for his career. Is either a "franchise" QB? Brett Favre and Drew Brees were second round picks playing for their second team before they had success.

Canmore
06-16-2011, 11:50 PM
I think Josh's point was, "how do you define them BEFORE they have major success and win Super Bowls?". Manning was first overall pick but took about 10 years before he won a SB. Roethlisberger won both his SBs with pedestrian stats. I don't think he was in the Pro Bowl either year he won. Brady was a sixth round pick who spent his previous season as a backup when he won his first SB. Warner was undrafted and kicked around the "minor leagues" of football for a few years before he even made it to the NFL. Took Elway a long time to break through, and his passer ratings weren't that great through some of the early years. If Cutler is supposed to be a "franchise" QB, he hasn't shown any symptoms so far. I think his won/loss record is barely over .500 for his career, and his passing stats were never above middle of the pack over 6 seasons. Phillip Rivers has great numbers but no trophy. Eli Manning has a trophy and mediocre numbers for his career. Is either a "franchise" QB? Brett Favre and Drew Brees were second round picks playing for their second team before they had success.

Some player just have that "it" about them. That's what I think he saw in Tebow. They are winners. We will see if Tim falls into that category.

BroncoStud
06-17-2011, 01:28 AM
I think Josh's point was, "how do you define them BEFORE they have major success and win Super Bowls?". Manning was first overall pick but took about 10 years before he won a SB. Roethlisberger won both his SBs with pedestrian stats. I don't think he was in the Pro Bowl either year he won. Brady was a sixth round pick who spent his previous season as a backup when he won his first SB. Warner was undrafted and kicked around the "minor leagues" of football for a few years before he even made it to the NFL. Took Elway a long time to break through, and his passer ratings weren't that great through some of the early years. If Cutler is supposed to be a "franchise" QB, he hasn't shown any symptoms so far. I think his won/loss record is barely over .500 for his career, and his passing stats were never above middle of the pack over 6 seasons. Phillip Rivers has great numbers but no trophy. Eli Manning has a trophy and mediocre numbers for his career. Is either a "franchise" QB? Brett Favre and Drew Brees were second round picks playing for their second team before they had success.

I think the point is that Josh is a dumbass.

Canmore
06-17-2011, 04:48 AM
I think the point is that Josh is a dumbass.

That's a given but he certainly won some games with Brady.

spikerman
06-17-2011, 05:46 AM
That's a given but he certainly won some games with Brady.

Which pretty much refutes McDaniels' point. Thanks for reviving this thread RC, I was feeling down about football, but reading that made me think back to the day McD got fired and I smiled a little bit.

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 07:49 AM
That's a given but he certainly won some games with Brady.

This is true but if he's saying Brady isn't a franchise quarterback then who is?

Lonestar
06-17-2011, 09:18 AM
Who knows. However, Manning was probably a Franchise QB (or considered one) long before he got his ring.

As was John.

Npba900
06-17-2011, 09:20 AM
Sure it's possible but doesn't happen very often that a team wins a championship with a journeyman quarterback. The last team to do it was the Buccaneers.

Don't forget the Ravens won a SB with a journeyman QB as well.

Ravage!!!
06-17-2011, 09:51 AM
Manning was considered a Franchise QB before he won the SUper Bowl, and so is Rivers. Roth and Brady won early in their careers, but continued to have success and take their teams BACK. The ONE Super Bowl didn't "make" them one of the best in the NFL. As we've seen Dilfer, Johnson,.... hell even Rodgers and Brees have just one SB ring.

Its not the championships, but their play. Its how GOOD they are and the DIFFERENCE they make when on the field. It absolutely is NOT just the numbers. This Fantasy Football world wants to determine how good the player is by how well he ranks in fantasy stats. Roth's "pedestrian" numbers have very little to do with how GOOD he is and just how much he is a HUGE difference maker in the game.

This article is just another example of just how far McDaniels was over his head. He was the poor kid at the deep end of the pool, dog paddling like crazy just to keep his head above water. When his single "Water Wing" (Nolan) floated away and left to get away from him ... McD sank like a rock.

slim
06-17-2011, 10:05 AM
Yeah, except he is right.

The term FQB is so overused it has become meaningless.

topscribe
06-17-2011, 10:51 AM
Yeah, except he is right.

The term FQB is so overused it has become meaningless.

I think Orton pretty well lays it on the line: "If the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."

-----

BroncoStud
06-17-2011, 11:10 AM
I think Orton pretty well lays it on the line: "If the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."

-----

And now we have another Orton thread... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 11:29 AM
I would have to saw old QB for Buffalo was a franchise QB with no SB ring, you might have heard of him, Jim Kelly

I dont not think you need a SB ring to be a Franchise QB look at Kelly, HOF QB

Ravage!!!
06-17-2011, 12:49 PM
I think Orton pretty well lays it on the line: "If the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."

-----

He should know. Every organization has told him he's not one.

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 01:12 PM
Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl.

Northman
06-17-2011, 06:03 PM
Don't forget the Ravens won a SB with a journeyman QB as well.

Next to one of the best defenses in NFL history. Shit, i could of gone out there and threw 5 yd passes with that defenses.

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 06:22 PM
Bottom line, Josh is right. There is no formula or recipe for a "franchise quarterback". If there was, I don't think it would resemble Jay Cutler, either.

topscribe
06-17-2011, 06:24 PM
Bottom line, Josh is right. There is no formula or recipe for a "franchise quarterback". If there was, I don't think it would resemble Jay Cutler, either.

I have this strange feeling that after this year the Bears will consider Cutler as Franchise . . .

-----

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 06:26 PM
I have this strange feeling that after this year the Bears will consider Cutler as Franchise . . .

-----
They better hope, didn't they sink about a hundred mil into him?:shocked:

Northman
06-17-2011, 06:29 PM
Bottom line, Josh is right. There is no formula or recipe for a "franchise quarterback". If there was, I don't think it would resemble Jay Cutler, either.

Uh, no. Josh is not correct. This is the list of SB winning Qb's and only the ones in red are not considered "franchise" QB's. Two of which saw a defensive player win MVP of said game.

Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs

topscribe
06-17-2011, 06:33 PM
They better hope, didn't they sink about a hundred mil into him?:shocked:

People view me as an Orton fan, and I guess I am. But few realize, or remember,
that I was once on Plummer's side during those famous wars over on Mania. And
I am still pissed over the way they handled Cutler and the fact he is wearing
orange and blue for a different team.

I said at the time that Cutler was a once-in-a-generation QB, and I still believe
that, from the perspective of his incredible skill level. Once he gets it all
together, he will be All-Pro, IMO, and it just may begin next year . . .

-----

Northman
06-17-2011, 06:36 PM
People view me as an Orton fan, and I guess I am. But few realize, or remember,
that I was once on Plummer's side during those famous wars over on Mania. And
I am still pissed over the way they handled Cutler and the fact he is wearing
orange and blue for a different team.

I said at the time that Cutler was a once-in-a-generation QB, and I still believe
that, from the perspective of his incredible skill level. Once he gets it all
together, he will be All-Pro, IMO, and it just may begin next year . . .

-----

Give him another couple of years in that system he will do well.

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 06:38 PM
Half the guys in white became "franchise" quarterbacks by winning the SB though. Along with 50 odd other guys. Brady was an unknown third string backup before he won the SB. Namath finished his career with awful numbers and had more Ints than TD passes. Bradshaw was a borderline defective who had to fight for his job most years and completed about 40% of his passes. Plunkett had a mostly journeyman type career. Theismann played in the CFL a few years before any NFL team was even interested in him. Warner was playing Arena League or something a couple years before he won his first SB. Simms and Rypien were mostly hated by their own fans when they played. Favre was sitting on the bench for a coach who said it would take a plane crash to get him on the field a year or two before he won the SB. Most of them became "franchise" quarterbacks after winning the big game, not before.

NightTerror218
06-17-2011, 06:42 PM
Uh, no. Josh is not correct. This is the list of SB winning Qb's and only the ones in red are not considered "franchise" QB's. Two of which saw a defensive player win MVP of said game.

Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs


Nice post even though franchise QBs do not have to win a SB to be one, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino are couple of franchise QBs that never quite got the ring. But SB winning teams tend to have a big leader in their QB and Orton is not a leader, he may pull down some big numbers but he is NOT a leader by any means. What QB on that list is not a team leader and has leadership skills?

Northman
06-17-2011, 06:44 PM
Half the guys in white became "franchise" quarterbacks by winning the SB though. Along with 50 odd other guys. Brady was an unknown third string backup before he won the SB. Namath finished his career with awful numbers and had more Ints than TD passes. Bradshaw was a borderline defective who had to fight for his job most years and completed about 40% of his passes. Plunkett had a mostly journeyman type career. Theismann played in the CFL a few years before any NFL team was even interested in him. Warner was playing Arena League or something a couple years before he won his first SB. Simms and Rypien were mostly hated by their own fans when they played. Favre was sitting on the bench for a coach who said it would take a plane crash to get him on the field a year or two before he won the SB. Most of them became "franchise" quarterbacks after winning the big game, not before.

Not true. The minute those QB's started winning for their franchise they became franchise QB's. It wasnt like Favre had one great year with GB and then had to fight for the job. He and many others had already won it because they had the "it" factor. Maybe to YOU personally they didnt become franchise QB's until after they won but for most of the NFL and the franchises themselves the QB's made the statement for the starting position LONG before they won their SB's.

Northman
06-17-2011, 06:46 PM
Nice post even though franchise QBs do not have to win a SB to be one, Jim Kelly and Dan Marino are couple of franchise QBs that never quite got the ring. But SB winning teams tend to have a big leader in their QB and Orton is not a leader, he may pull down some big numbers but he is NOT a leader by any means. What QB on that list is not a team leader and has leadership skills?

Exactly. And they dont even have Rodgers on there who was drafted to be the franchise QB.

LordTrychon
06-17-2011, 06:49 PM
What about franchise coaches?

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 06:51 PM
I'm really surprised McDaniels is so dumbfounded as to what makes a guy a franchise quarterback. It's the guy that the organization to be the starting quarterback long term. He's also the guy you build your offense around. If McDaniels can't grasp that then I don't know what to tell him because I was pretty sure that's why went to all the trouble of drafting Tebow.

LordTrychon
06-17-2011, 06:51 PM
Give him another couple of years in that system he will do well.

Martz may want out after this year... so Cutler may be stuck with a new coordinator after this year.

I thought I heard they tried to extend Martz and he declined.

TXBRONC
06-17-2011, 06:52 PM
What about franchise coaches?

No such a thing.

Softskull
06-17-2011, 06:55 PM
No such a thing.

That's an interesting thought. We are lacking the Landry/Shula types today. I would think Bill Belichick is about as close as you could get.

MOtorboat
06-17-2011, 07:53 PM
Martz may want out after this year... so Cutler may be stuck with a new coordinator after this year.

I thought I heard they tried to extend Martz and he declined.

Wouldn't surprise me.

:coffee:

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Yeah, so where exactly is the line that they cross to become "franchise quarterbacks" or is it something you just "know" like true love?:rolleyes:

Northman
06-17-2011, 08:36 PM
Yeah, so where exactly is the line that they cross to become "franchise quarterbacks" or is it something you just "know" like true love?:rolleyes:

Your kidding right? It doesnt take long watching guys like Elway, Favre, Brady, Manning, etc to see they are something special.

robert ethan
06-17-2011, 08:45 PM
Your kidding right? It doesnt take long watching guys like Elway, Favre, Brady, Manning, etc to see they are something special.

Well, every team in the league passed on Favre in the draft. Then the team that took him traded him away without giving him a chance to play. Brady was the seventh quarterback taken in his draft year and the 200th player overall. I think Brady was almost 25 before he became a starter. No one "watched" and noticed prior to that? You've just named four of the safest, most obvious ones, but Manning and Elway in particular were brutal in their rookie seasons. I think John had worst numbers than Jimmy Clausen did as a rookie. Or as bad, at least. Is Clausen a "franchise quarterback"? Is Matt Cassell who sat on the bench his whole college career and a few years as a pro? Cassell certainly looks to be at least as good as Cutler at this juncture.

Northman
06-17-2011, 09:26 PM
Well, every team in the league passed on Favre in the draft. Then the team that took him traded him away without giving him a chance to play.

He also sat behind Jeff George who was taken by the Falcons and probably making a shitload more money ala the Rivers/Bree's senario.


Brady was the seventh quarterback taken in his draft year and the 200th player overall. I think Brady was almost 25 before he became a starter. No one "watched" and noticed prior to that?

What are they supposed to watch? He was a rookie and sitting behind another #1 QB in Drew Bledsoe. Tom was drafted for depth by the Pats no question about it. But just like Montana when he took over after Bledsoe's injury he showed he was a baller and from there it was history.


You've just named four of the safest, most obvious ones, but Manning and Elway in particular were brutal in their rookie seasons. I think John had worst numbers than Jimmy Clausen did as a rookie. Or as bad, at least.

Both Elway and Manning had a brutal first year. But it didnt take long for both Qb's to show they had the ability to be something special as they quickly lead their teams to positive records in their sophmore seasons.


Is Clausen a "franchise quarterback"? Is Matt Cassell who sat on the bench his whole college career and a few years as a pro?

Clausen has played what? 6 or so games if that? Cassell? Cassell has shown he can play well but he cannot take over a game like a Manning, Brady, or Elway can.


Cassell certainly looks to be at least as good as Cutler at this juncture.

While both have played on similiar teams throughout their career Jay has shown he is a better overall player by his ability to comeback in games. He has 15 4th quarter comebacks to just 6 for Cassell. 12 of them in the same timeframe from when Cassell took over for Brady. Bottom line, i dont see the same intangibles in Cassell as i do in Cutler. And while Jay still has some problems to overcome i see far more upside with him as a playmaker as i do Cassell. I would also be willing to bet that Cassell has played with a better Oline and running game while in NE and KC.

elsid13
06-18-2011, 05:11 PM
That's an interesting thought. We are lacking the Landry/Shula types today. I would think Bill Belichick is about as close as you could get.

You had three (Belichick, Shanahan and Fisher) less then two years ago.

sneakers
06-19-2011, 12:51 AM
I LOVE old threads!

Canmore
06-19-2011, 01:15 AM
I LOVE old threads!

So do I. McDaniels wasn't a big believer except for...McDaniels. :defense: