View Full Version : Ortons' Contract Status
Hi all,
I'm sure it has been discussed here at some point, but why are the Broncos waiting to extend his contract?. I realize there are a TON of expiring contracts in Denver after the season, which is why it seems to make sense to get it done now. The only reason I can see waiting would be if there is going to be a change in the upcoming uncapped salary year. From my understanding, that would change the status of Marshalls' contract.
Does anyone have more details on this?. Also, are the Broncos currently capped out for 2009?...thus preventing them from spending any $$ until next year??.
Regards,
Biz:ridinghorse:
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-09-2009, 12:50 PM
Because orton has said multiple times he badly wants to stay in Denver and they're making him work for it. He doesn't want a big contract he just wants years.
Hi all,
I'm sure it has been discussed here at some point, but why are the Broncos waiting to extend his contract?. I realize there are a TON of expiring contracts in Denver after the season, which is why it seems to make sense to get it done now. The only reason I can see waiting would be if there is going to be a change in the upcoming uncapped salary year. From my understanding, that would change the status of Marshalls' contract.
Does anyone have more details on this?. Also, are the Broncos currently capped out for 2009?...thus preventing them from spending any $$ until next year??.
Regards,
Biz:ridinghorse:
No, you can't have Orton back!!!! :laugh:
Cugel
12-09-2009, 01:15 PM
Orton wants Cassel type money: about $50 million for 5 years with about $30 million guaranteed.
And he's NOT worth it! If Denver signs him long-term it's going to be a HORRIBLE cap move that will likely lose McDaniels his job in the long term -- just as signing Cassel to a long-term $14 million a year deal will not help Scott Pioli's career in KC. :coffee:
The Broncos are going to re-sign him after the season. But, after next season it's going to be bluntly clear even to "Orton's Army" that he's NOT the answer at QB. So, what then? Cut him and take a $12 million cap hit or something?
Pay him $12-14 million to sit on the bench behind some rookie QB you draft in 2011?
It would be better if Orton still had another year on his contract. Then they could evaluate him for another year.
But, he just doesn't have the athletic skills to ever be an elite QB and you can't win the SB without one.
So, it's going to be back to the drawing board sooner or later. And frankly, the sooner they pull the trigger and let him go and draft a franchise QB, the better long term. :coffee:
The BEST move for the Broncos would be to admit that this team is never going to win a championship as currently constituted and just go out and draft a franchise QB in 2009 and train him for 2 more seasons.
Orton was merely the best option available for trade at the time of the Cutler deal -- that doesn't mean he's good enough to be the Broncos franchise QB. He flat isn't. :coffee:
No, you can't have Orton back!!!! :laugh:
I don't want him back, I want better coaching here for Cutler. However, 8 months ago I was posting on the "official" Broncos MB that there was nothing wrong with Kyle Orton. Yet, 75% of the fan base was busy throwing Orton and McDaniels under the bus back then when I predicted an 8-8 season this year and a division title next year. Now I would imagine that all of those naysayers last Spring would now vote for Josh McDaniels as the Governor of Colorado....:lol:
Why haven't the Broncos extended Ortons' contract?. Your FA list is short, but expensive to keep the core of the offense intact for 2010:
QB Kyle Orton RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
WR Brandon Marshall UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
TE Jeb Putzier UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
TE Tony Scheffler UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
PK Matt Prater RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OG Ben Hamilton UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
C Casey Wiegmann UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OL Chris Kuper UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB Elvis Dumervil UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB D.J. Williams UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
CoachChaz
12-09-2009, 01:20 PM
I think Orton could be a guy to lead a team to the SB. His teammates always love and respect him and if he can master this offense, he can be a stud. I think it's fair to say he's already out performed the numbers that most thought he'd put up. Give it time for the offense to become second nature with all the youngsters and new people.
That being said...I'd still look for a potential replacement. orton is young, but if something happens where he wants a ridiculous contract or for some reason fails to improve, it would be convenient to have another horse in the stable
I don't want him back, I want better coaching here for Cutler. However, 8 months ago I was posting on the "official" Broncos MB that there was nothing wrong with Kyle Orton. Yet, 75% of the fan base was busy throwing Orton and McDaniels under the bus back then when I predicted an 8-8 season this year and a division title next year. Now I would imagine that all of those naysayers last Spring would now vote for Josh McDaniels as the Governor of Colorado....:lol:
Why haven't the Broncos extended Ortons' contract?. Your FA list is short, but expensive to keep the core of the offense intact for 2010:
QB Kyle Orton RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
WR Brandon Marshall UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
TE Jeb Putzier UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
TE Tony Scheffler UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
PK Matt Prater RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OG Ben Hamilton UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
C Casey Wiegmann UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OL Chris Kuper UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB Elvis Dumervil UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB D.J. Williams UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
It was a joke. ;) Oh and BTW....Cutler had some of the best coaching from an offensive mastermind...it didn't much to improve his output. :shrugs: Don't hang all the issues with Cutler on your coaches.
CoachChaz
12-09-2009, 01:21 PM
QB Kyle Orton RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
WR Brandon Marshall UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
TE Jeb Putzier UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent - history
TE Tony Scheffler UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent - history
PK Matt Prater RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent - history
OG Ben Hamilton UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent - history
C Casey Wiegmann UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent - history
OL Chris Kuper UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB Elvis Dumervil UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB D.J. Williams UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
Not everyone gets a new contract
And he's NOT worth it! If Denver signs him long-term it's going to be a HORRIBLE cap move that will likely lose McDaniels his job in the long term -- just as signing Cassel to a long-term $14 million a year deal will not help Scott Pioli's career in KC. :coffee:
And you know this about Pioli how? Hunt is the owner but it's Pioli who is calling the shots...glad you have so much insight to how the Chiefs are running things.
56crash
12-09-2009, 01:35 PM
I don't want him back, I want better coaching here for Cutler. However, 8 months ago I was posting on the "official" Broncos MB that there was nothing wrong with Kyle Orton. Yet, 75% of the fan base was busy throwing Orton and McDaniels under the bus back then when I predicted an 8-8 season this year and a division title next year. Now I would imagine that all of those naysayers last Spring would now vote for Josh McDaniels as the Governor of Colorado....:lol:
Why haven't the Broncos extended Ortons' contract?. Your FA list is short, but expensive to keep the core of the offense intact for 2010:
QB Kyle Orton RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
WR Brandon Marshall UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent He is a RFA
TE Jeb Putzier UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent not on team
TE Tony Scheffler UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent He is a RFA
PK Matt Prater RFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
OG Ben Hamilton UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
C Casey Wiegmann UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent not a Free agent gave a two year contact this spring .
OL Chris Kuper UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent
LB Elvis Dumervil UFA Denver Broncos Free Agent He is a RFA
LB D.J. Williams UFA Denver Broncos Free AgentHe Signed a long term contract last year at this time .
We will be fine I think all our RFA's will be signed to long term contracts incuding Kuper .
camdisco24
12-09-2009, 01:38 PM
Not everyone gets a new contract
I agree with all you highlighted expect Tony Scheffler, I think he gets resigned...
As for Orton, he's clearly shown that he's a winner. No, he's not a superstar, but he has played very well this season. Obviously we resign him for a few years, but we also need to have a legit back-up for him. Obviously Simms doesnt cut it. Orton isnt the type of guy who will demand a huge contract, so im not too worried about that. Whatever the case, I have faith that McD and the front office will make the right decision to get this team back to the Super Bowl. If that includes Orton (or vise versa), i'll support it all the way.
Not everyone gets a new contract
Ahhhhhhhh!!!!! Don't you dare say Scheffler. :(
Who do we have to take Wiegman's spot with Hamilton gone?
claymore
12-09-2009, 01:41 PM
It was a joke. ;) Oh and BTW....Cutler had some of the best coaching from an offensive mastermind...it didn't much to improve his output. :shrugs: Don't hang all the issues with Cutler on your coaches.
He set the single season passing record for the Broncos in his third year. :ninja:
Orton wants Cassel type money: about $50 million for 5 years with about $30 million guaranteed.
And he's NOT worth it! If Denver signs him long-term it's going to be a HORRIBLE cap move that will likely lose McDaniels his job in the long term -- just as signing Cassel to a long-term $14 million a year deal will not help Scott Pioli's career in KC. :coffee:
The Broncos are going to re-sign him after the season. But, after next season it's going to be bluntly clear even to "Orton's Army" that he's NOT the answer at QB. So, what then? Cut him and take a $12 million cap hit or something?
Pay him $12-14 million to sit on the bench behind some rookie QB you draft in 2011?
It would be better if Orton still had another year on his contract. Then they could evaluate him for another year.
But, he just doesn't have the athletic skills to ever be an elite QB and you can't win the SB without one.
So, it's going to be back to the drawing board sooner or later. And frankly, the sooner they pull the trigger and let him go and draft a franchise QB, the better long term. :coffee:
The BEST move for the Broncos would be to admit that this team is never going to win a championship as currently constituted and just go out and draft a franchise QB in 2009 and train him for 2 more seasons.
Orton was merely the best option available for trade at the time of the Cutler deal -- that doesn't mean he's good enough to be the Broncos franchise QB. He flat isn't. :coffee:
Ah, everyone wants a John Elway. No, Orton is not worth "franchise QB" money. I was unaware that he had asked for that amount. But teams can still win without a Peyton Manning et al., just ask a Brad Johnson or that QB in Baltimore that won a title(what was his name again?)this decade. Systems can still bring championships with an average QB, despite the NFL rule changes that promote offense. I have a list here that I can post, it's an adjusted yardage system used to rank the top 100 post-1950 QB's.
Guess where Tom Brady ranks?:
#53: Brad Johnson - A career "solid starter", Johnson embodies that vast quarterbacking Siberia that lies between Trent Dilfer and Joe Montana.
#54: Tom Brady - A lock to move into at least the Top 30 someday, Brady is already a three-time Super Bowl champ who sleeps with models and has a near-ubiquitous endorsement presence during football season... Remind you of anyone?
John Elway is number 5. Still think you cannot win a title with Orton?, I think you can. But, Orton needs to settle for half the price you posted.
56crash
12-09-2009, 01:45 PM
Not everyone gets a new contract
learn who is on the team and some already do have contracts .
as to the kicker he will be dangled with a 2nd round tenure IMO .
the reast of the RFA 's will get long term contarcts.
claymore
12-09-2009, 01:53 PM
Ah, everyone wants a John Elway. No, Orton is not worth "franchise QB" money. I was unaware that he had asked for that amount. But teams can still win without a Peyton Manning et al., just ask a Brad Johnson or that QB in Baltimore that won a title(what was his name again?)this decade. Systems can still bring championships with an average QB, despite the NFL rule changes that promote offense. I have a list here that I can post, it's an adjusted yardage system used to rank the top 100 post-1950 QB's.
Guess where Tom Brady ranks?:
#53: Brad Johnson - A career "solid starter", Johnson embodies that vast quarterbacking Siberia that lies between Trent Dilfer and Joe Montana.
#54: Tom Brady - A lock to move into at least the Top 30 someday, Brady is already a three-time Super Bowl champ who sleeps with models and has a near-ubiquitous endorsement presence during football season... Remind you of anyone?
John Elway is number 5. Still think you cannot win a title with Orton?, I think you can. But, Orton needs to settle for half the price you posted.
Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer had 2 of the best defenses ever. And Tom Brady still has 5-6 years left to go on his career.
If we have one of the best defenses ever we will win a SB with Orton.
He set the single season passing record for the Broncos in his third year. :ninja:
And still posted an average record where it counted....wins and losses.
T.K.O.
12-09-2009, 01:57 PM
The Broncos are going to re-sign him after the season. But, after next season it's going to be bluntly clear even to "Orton's Army" that he's NOT the answer at QB. So, what then? Cut him and take a $12 million cap hit or something?
Pay him $12-14 million to sit on the bench behind some rookie QB you draft in 2011?
It would be better if Orton still had another year on his contract. Then they could evaluate him for another year.
But, he just doesn't have the athletic skills to ever be an elite QB and you can't win the SB without one.
So, it's going to be back to the drawing board sooner or later. And frankly, the sooner they pull the trigger and let him go and draft a franchise QB, the better long term. :coffee:
The BEST move for the Broncos would be to admit that this team is never going to win a championship as currently constituted and just go out and draft a franchise QB in 2009 and train him for 2 more seasons.
Orton was merely the best option available for trade at the time of the Cutler deal -- that doesn't mean he's good enough to be the Broncos franchise QB. He flat isn't. :coffee:
Wow....where do i begin?
after next season its going to be "bluntly clear" ?we are in a position to make the playoffs and still could possibly win the division (most agree we would have won the skins game had orton been able to play the whole game and also the following week had simms not stunk up the 1st half so bad) which is more than we accomplished with our last "franchise qb"
so i dont see how you see the future so bleak.
"Pay him $12-14 million to sit on the bench behind some rookie QB you draft in 2011? "its been proven repeatedly you sit the rookie and start the vet while the rook gets his bearings in the nfl or more likely than not,you have wasted a draft pick and hurt the chances of the young qb ever reaching his potential,orton would be a great guy to help groom the qb of the future,as he has proven to be a selfless "team first" type of player.
"But, he just doesn't have the athletic skills to ever be an elite QB and you can't win the SB without one."
uhhhh......hogwash !(wow ive never written those words before....kinda fun !)
he has as many games played in his career as guys like cutler,rodgers,rivers and young....are you saying since they hav'nt won a sb yet,they wont?
i could name a dozen teams that have won the SB without an "elite" qb as you call them....but i wont because the statement is so silly it does'nt deserve the effort.
"And frankly, the sooner they pull the trigger and let him go and draft a franchise QB"
again....you dont fire a guy who keeps your team competetive BEFORE you draft a guy who might lead the team in a year or two,so it makes no sense to let him go right now.i dont think we want simms running the show for the next 2 years (unless you just want to rack up top 5 picks....see oakland for results on that gameplan)
" that doesn't mean he's good enough to be the Broncos franchise QB. He flat isn't"
and you can tell this by the fact that the broncos have won more games at this point of the season than they have since 2005 ? nice work.
getting your team to play hard for you and believe they can win is as important a quality as almost any other in a qb,and i think orton is building that chemistry with the team this year !
"The BEST move for the Broncos would be to admit that this team is never going to win a championship as currently constituted "
man that one takes the prize for the most absurd statement ive read in ......:confused:
in sports its typically not the "best move" to admit that you will "FAIL" regardless of how well you plan and practice,no matter how hard you play.even if you have a shot at the playoffs (where as the saying goes"the season starts over and anything can happen")it's a futile effort because we will NEVER win a championship with kyle orton at qb....boo hoo whaaaaa
tell that to trent dilfer.
oh and tell that to john elway while your at it....i remember all the years when people said he would never get a ring because he blew his chances in the 80's,well all it took was the right combination of players on the field and the attitude of a "team first" group of guys who did'nt listen when people tod them "they're never gonna beat the packers".....HA!:salute:
And still posted an average record where it counted....wins and losses.
Hey Clay.....give me the number of winning seasons Cutler has had in his high school, college and NFL careers. Now....how many of those seasons was he lighting up his stats?
claymore
12-09-2009, 01:59 PM
And still posted an average record where it counted....wins and losses.
Its a team sport Gem.
again....you dont fire a guy who keeps your team competetive BEFORE you draft a guy who might lead the team in a year or two,so it makes no sense to let him go right now.i dont think we want simms running the show for the next 2 years (unless you just want to rack up top 5 picks....see oakland for results on that gameplan)
Cue Jake Plummer circa 2006.
Its a team sport Gem.
So unless you put great guys around him, he's average....but he's got great stats. That doesn't equal a franchise player.
Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer had 2 of the best defenses ever. And Tom Brady still has 5-6 years left to go on his career.
If we have one of the best defenses ever we will win a SB with Orton.
Trent Dilfer!, that's the name I had forgotten. Orton had a much better coaching staff in college at Purdue(same staff that developed Drew Brees).
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Hey Clay.....give me the number of winning seasons Cutler has had in his high school, college and NFL careers. Now....how many of those seasons was he lighting up his stats?
Its a team sport Gem. He was one cog in the machine.
Timmy!
12-09-2009, 02:06 PM
Orton wants Cassel type money: about $50 million for 5 years with about $30 million guaranteed.
Source??
T.K.O.
12-09-2009, 02:06 PM
He set the single season passing record for the Broncos in his third year. :ninja:
and big ben has won 2 sb's ,didnt set any records those years but won alot of games....point being stats dont win championships....attitude ,consistancy and execution does !
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:07 PM
So unless you put great guys around him, he's average....but he's got great stats. That doesn't equal a franchise player.I think that can be said about any QB ever. You have to have good players surrounding you. Its not golf.
Its a team sport Gem. He was one cog in the machine.
Always excuses. No wonder he's a spoiled type of guy....people have been giving him the go ahead just because he has an arm. :shrugs:
Potential....a word that will never be fulfilled because the teams he goes to are just so filled with bad players. He'll never lift up and put a team on his shoulders. Why do that when you can go to the sidelines and pout instead.
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:09 PM
and big ben has won 2 sb's ,didnt set any records those years but won alot of games....point being stats dont win championships....attitude ,consistancy and execution does !
Big Ben had a good Offense, defense, good running backs, and good ST's. I wonder if that helped them win any games?
Name a QB that single handedly brought a team to a SB, and won it.
I think that can be said about any QB ever. You have to have good players surrounding you. Its not golf.
Tom Brady has had a star cast surrounding him the years he won the SB's? Really? :laugh:
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Always excuses. No wonder he's a spoiled type of guy....people have been giving him the go ahead just because he has an arm. :shrugs:
Potential....a word that will never be fulfilled because the teams he goes to are just so filled with bad players. He'll never lift up and put a team on his shoulders. Why do that when you can go to the sidelines and pout instead.
Vanderbilt (First Commodore to win the SEC Offensive Player of the Year )? Denver last year(Pro Bowl in 3rd year) ? Chicago?
How can you think that Cutler is on good teams in any of those scenarios?
I think his highschool team went to the state championship.
1st RD QB's usually go to bad teams. And he had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. We have 8 new starters and a new DC.
T.K.O.
12-09-2009, 02:15 PM
Cue Jake Plummer circa 2006.
i remember how everyone was talking about how cutler was the first rookie to throw multiple td's in his 1st 3 games since....marino or elway or montana i dont remember exactly who and i was stoked about it and all....then i realized we probably would have made the playoffs had we kept jake in.....i like the playoffs better than cool stats.
who would have thought that that decision would lead to to a 17-20 run, 3 years without a playoff appearance and the eventual firing of the broncos most successful head coach.....go figure:confused:
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:16 PM
Tom Brady has had a star cast surrounding him the years he won the SB's? Really? :laugh:
Pretty damn good teams. Very good Defense, and one of the best kickers ever..
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:18 PM
i remember how everyone was talking about how cutler was the first rookie to throw multiple td's in his 1st 3 games since....marino or elway or montana i dont remember exactly who and i was stoked about it and all....then i realized we probably would have made the playoffs had we kept jake in.....i like the playoffs better than cool stats.
who would have thought that that decision would lead to to a 17-20 run, 3 years without a playoff appearance and the eventual firing of the broncos most successful head coach.....go figure:confused:
Plummers QB rating was 68 for the season. we were not going to the playoffs. His turnover ratio was insane.
56crash
12-09-2009, 02:18 PM
Vanderbilt (First Commodore to win the SEC Offensive Player of the Year )? Denver last year(Pro Bowl in 3rd year) ? Chicago?
How can you think that Cutler is on good teams in any of those scenarios?
I think his highschool team went to the state championship. 1st RD QB's usually go to bad teams. And he had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. We have 8 new starters and a new DC.
They won state
We will be fine I think all our RFA's will be signed to long term contracts incuding Kuper .
Thanks for updating the FA list, sounds like Denver is in good shape. The Broncos have a relatively short FA list and a somewhat abundant 2010 draft upcoming.
Best wishes for the remainder of the season, which has already been above "expectations".
Vanderbilt (First Commodore to win the SEC Offensive Player of the Year )? Denver last year(Pro Bowl in 3rd year) ? Chicago?
How can you think that Cutler is on good teams in any of those scenarios?
I think his highschool team went to the state championship.
1st RD QB's usually go to bad teams. And he had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. We have 8 new starters and a new DC.
A franchise QB makes his team better. Cutler didn't. He spits out fantastic stats and that doesn't win games.
He's gone Clay, he isn't coming back. Amazingly, since he's been gone, we have a winning record. Can't fight that fact....what makes it even more amazing is that we have 8 new starters and a new DC. Our QB has been far more efficient than in years past. He has a total of 7 INT's for the year, 3 coming in a huge win over a division rival. If that isn't good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you. If the way we have won isn't pretty enough for you, if the game plan of short screens and dump offs isn't enough for you, again, I don't know what to tell you.
Source??
Have there even been any contract negotiations?
56crash
12-09-2009, 02:25 PM
Thanks for updating the FA list, sounds like Denver is in good shape. The Broncos have a relatively short FA list and a somewhat abundant 2010 draft upcoming.
Best wishes for the remainder of the season, which has already been above "expectations".
We are fine the only two that kind of scare me is Marshall and Dvile .
Not because we will not sign them , but because it's going to be costly as all heck . this will mean that we do not do much in FA but sign our own guys...
Plummers QB rating was 68 for the season. we were not going to the playoffs. His turnover ratio was insane.
You do know you just described Cutler right?
Its a team sport Gem.
I can tell you that Cincinnati wouldn't have 5 wins if Cutler was our QB.
Until he matures he's an above average stat guy with a flair for making the losing play.
56crash
12-09-2009, 02:30 PM
Have there even been any contract negotiations?
yes about 4 weeks ago there was a small mention that they were working on Marshall long term . To be honest this bunch is hush, hush . that is the part that sucks about McD ...
they could be talking to all our RFA's for all we know. they like to work with no fan fare
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:33 PM
A franchise QB makes his team better. Cutler didn't. He spits out fantastic stats and that doesn't win games.
He's gone Clay, he isn't coming back. Amazingly, since he's been gone, we have a winning record. Can't fight that fact....what makes it even more amazing is that we have 8 new starters and a new DC. Our QB has been far more efficient than in years past. He has a total of 7 INT's for the year, 3 coming in a huge win over a division rival. If that isn't good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you. If the way we have won isn't pretty enough for you, if the game plan of short screens and dump offs isn't enough for you, again, I don't know what to tell you.
I know Cutler is gone. And I dont want him back. Orton had 1 INT and 2 fumbles. You dont have to tell me anything. Just dont try and tell me that we lost because of Cutler, and we are winning because of Orton. Because both would be untrue.
You do know you just described Cutler right?
Nope, as bad as a season as you think Cutler is having right now, its still better than Plummers was in 06.
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:37 PM
I can tell you that Cincinnati wouldn't have 5 wins if Cutler was our QB.
Until he matures he's an above average stat guy with a flair for making the losing play.
You have a good defense Good offense weapons. I think you would still have a winning record with Cutler or Orton.
56crash
12-09-2009, 02:37 PM
I can tell you that Cincinnati wouldn't have 5 wins if Cutler was our QB.
Until he matures he's an above average stat guy with a flair for making the losing play.
thing is and you just said it Cutler can do" it" but yes he needs to grow up and do what the Manning's have done become a Pro . Who knows time will tell . I hope he can he was a Bronco . so yes I want him to do good just not this year at this point . If I thought he could win a SB I would be rooting for him . he does need to find way more time for football .
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:38 PM
thing is and you just said it Cutler can do" it" but yes he needs to grow up and do what the Manning's have done become a Pro . Who knows time will tell . I hope he can he was a Bronco . so yes I want him to do good just not this year at this point . If I thought he could win a SB I would be rooting for him . he does need to find way more time for football .
Drew Brees should be his best freind right now. Thats who I would call for advice.
thing is and you just said it Cutler can do" it" but yes he needs to grow up and do what the Manning's have done become a Pro . Who knows time will tell . I hope he can he was a Bronco . so yes I want him to do good just not this year at this point . If I thought he could win a SB I would be rooting for him . he does need to find way more time for football .
Cutler 'could' do it. Cutler 'should' be able to do it. The problem is that in Denver and Cincinnati they don't care about stats. Carson Palmer has put up some gaudy numbers. Palmer signed to a big fat contract. His name is mentioned amongst the upper tier of QBs and in 2005 he was the best QB that year and was considered to be behind only Manning and Brady.
And the only thing he cares about is winning.
The only thing Orton cares about is winning.
Guys like those NEED to win.
I think right now winning isn't a need for Cutler, but it'd be nice.
And Claymore, Palmer's been managing games and executing well in the red zone. So, IMO, we'd have one less win with Orton, and about 5 less wins with Cutler.
Requiem / The Dagda
12-09-2009, 02:47 PM
I'm not sure what the contract status of Orton is, and I'm fairly certain he won't be asking for tons of money, but he probably won't come cheaply either. He can win games. He is a proven winner. Here and in Chicago. He is respected by his teammates and has composure on the field. For all we've seen, he is a tough son of a gun who isn't afraid to risk hurting himself more if he feels him playing makes us better. He is a natural leader, and I like that. If Orton gets extended, I don't expect flashy numbers from him. I doubt we will ever see Kyle toss for 4,000 yards and 40 touchdowns.
What we probably will see, and hopefully will continue to view -- is a cerebral quarterback making smart decisions that help the team. Sure, he has had some turnovers, but I like his TD to INT ratio (2:1) and his accuracy on the field. Keep in mind, this is his first year here. He will probably improve as time goes on. So we hope.
If Kyle can take this team into the playoffs this year, with the rollover we had in personnel both staff and players -- it is a Hell of an accomplishment.
claymore
12-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Cutler 'could' do it. Cutler 'should' be able to do it. The problem is that in Denver and Cincinnati they don't care about stats. Carson Palmer has put up some gaudy numbers. Palmer signed to a big fat contract. His name is mentioned amongst the upper tier of QBs and in 2005 he was the best QB that year and was considered to be behind only Manning and Brady.
And the only thing he cares about is winning.
The only thing Orton cares about is winning.
Guys like those NEED to win.
I think right now winning isn't a need for Cutler, but it'd be nice.
And Claymore, Palmer's been managing games and executing well in the red zone. So, IMO, we'd have one less win with Orton, and about 5 less wins with Cutler.
Who would palmer win more games with, the Broncos or Bears? Could Palmer turn Hester into a legit threat?
Who would palmer win more games with, the Broncos or Bears? Could Palmer turn Hester into a legit threat?
Palmer would win more games with the Broncos.
Palmer turned Andre Caldwell into a threat while having Ocho Cinco and Lavernous "dropped ball" Coles work inconsistent magic. Our tight ends are garbage, our pass blocking went from adequate to pathetic and our offensive coordinator acts like he got his playbook from the 1998 version of Madden.
Here's the thing, Claymore, Cutler, with a great cast only put up numbers that were above average OVERALL. The amount of TD's that he threw were good, not great. I kept telling Denver fans that this guy was good but wasn't the savior, but he COULD be if he changed his tendencies. I remember endless threads that I was in I got ridiculed for saying Rivers was better. I got the same thing when I said Palmer was better. Cutler's talent is damn near staggering.
But he has to grow up. Honestly a lot of your fans jumped the gun on him because he was the first prospect you had at QB that was worth talking about. It's nothing on your fans, some guys in Cincinnati still think Palmer is the same guy he was in 05 (the ACL, MCL and PCL tear did a number on him, he's not even close to being who he was, and it sucks) and there is still a good amount who think he's a top five guy (he's not).
But you've put this guy on a pedestal; his team was good enough to get into the playoffs. They should have won the division last year, and that's why Shanahan is gone and that's why it wasn't hard for McDaniels to ship out Cutler; stat machines put butts in seats, but only if the team is winning. If the team isn't winning for awhile a coach gets fired.
As of right now Jay Cutler isn't even a top 15 QB. Hell, in our division he's only better than Brady Quinn. In the AFC South I don't think I'd take him over Manning or Schaub, Garrad's a wash and I'd barely take him over Young.
In the AFC West he's worse than Rivers, Orton (suck it) and Cassel. In the AFC East he's worse than Brady and he beats out the QB monsters like Sanchez, Henne and Fitzpatrick.
That's in the AFC. On the field when he's playing he's a tough SOB but when as soon as he jogs off the field after ANOTHER gut-wrenching INT (see what I did there?) he's frail.
Now the encouraging thing about Cutler is that most guys who are as mentally weak as him become busts. He's not nor will he ever be a bust, so there's hope.
And with the 10th pick in the 2010 NFL Draft the Denver Broncos select...
http://www.sportsosphere.com/pics/sam_bradford_heisman.gif
Sam Bradford, QB, Oklahoma
Kyle Orton pwns Sam Bumshoulderford.
We are fine the only two that kind of scare me is Marshall and Dvile .
Not because we will not sign them , but because it's going to be costly as all heck . this will mean that we do not do much in FA but sign our own guys...
Dvile may cost top dollar to re-sign. He's now considered a top DE in the league, a so-called premier pass rusher. Be careful signing him to a huge contract...*coughs*, Albert Haynesworth, *coughs*.
I like Marshall, he seems to be overcoming his past issues. There's been some talk here in Chicago about signing him. We desperately need a legit WR.
Dvile may cost top dollar to re-sign. He's now considered a top DE in the league, a so-called premier pass rusher. Be careful signing him to a huge contract...*coughs*, Albert Haynesworth, *coughs*.
I like Marshall, he seems to be overcoming his past issues. There's been some talk here in Chicago about signing him. We desperately need a legit WR.
Haynesworth has been a monster in Washington....
claymore
12-09-2009, 03:12 PM
Palmer would win more games with the Broncos.
Palmer turned Andre Caldwell into a threat while having Ocho Cinco and Lavernous "dropped ball" Coles work inconsistent magic. Our tight ends are garbage, our pass blocking went from adequate to pathetic and our offensive coordinator acts like he got his playbook from the 1998 version of Madden.
Here's the thing, Claymore, Cutler, with a great cast only put up numbers that were above average OVERALL. The amount of TD's that he threw were good, not great. I kept telling Denver fans that this guy was good but wasn't the savior, but he COULD be if he changed his tendencies. I remember endless threads that I was in I got ridiculed for saying Rivers was better. I got the same thing when I said Palmer was better. Cutler's talent is damn near staggering.
But he has to grow up. Honestly a lot of your fans jumped the gun on him because he was the first prospect you had at QB that was worth talking about. It's nothing on your fans, some guys in Cincinnati still think Palmer is the same guy he was in 05 (the ACL, MCL and PCL tear did a number on him, he's not even close to being who he was, and it sucks) and there is still a good amount who think he's a top five guy (he's not).
But you've put this guy on a pedestal; his team was good enough to get into the playoffs. They should have won the division last year, and that's why Shanahan is gone and that's why it wasn't hard for McDaniels to ship out Cutler; stat machines put butts in seats, but only if the team is winning. If the team isn't winning for awhile a coach gets fired.
As of right now Jay Cutler isn't even a top 15 QB. Hell, in our division he's only better than Brady Quinn. In the AFC South I don't think I'd take him over Manning or Schaub, Garrad's a wash and I'd barely take him over Young.
In the AFC West he's worse than Rivers, Orton (suck it) and Cassel. In the AFC East he's worse than Brady and he beats out the QB monsters like Sanchez, Henne and Fitzpatrick.
That's in the AFC. On the field when he's playing he's a tough SOB but when as soon as he jogs off the field after ANOTHER gut-wrenching INT (see what I did there?) he's frail.
Now the encouraging thing about Cutler is that most guys who are as mentally weak as him become busts. He's not nor will he ever be a bust, so there's hope.
Pick any QB in the NFL and put them in Chicago where Devin Hester is their starting WR, and tell me they do much better. I cant think of anyone that would do better.
Im sick of talking about Cutler, I dont watch his games, and I dont really know much about the 09 bears. So I dont have much else to add to that.
Kyle Orton pwns Sam Bumshoulderford.
Wow, did you some up with that name on your own, Kingisanidiot87? :coffee:
Seriously though, I like Bradford a lot and think he fits McD's QB mold perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we drafted him.
Wow, did you some up with that name on your own, Kingisanidiot87? :coffee:
Seriously though, I like Bradford a lot and think he fits McD's QB mold perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we drafted him.
Yes, Honzlovesdudesbecausehe'ssupergayandenjoysdudes, I did.
claymore
12-09-2009, 03:13 PM
Dvile may cost top dollar to re-sign. He's now considered a top DE in the league, a so-called premier pass rusher. Be careful signing him to a huge contract...*coughs*, Albert Haynesworth, *coughs*.
I like Marshall, he seems to be overcoming his past issues. There's been some talk here in Chicago about signing him. We desperately need a legit WR.
He is a LB'er now. And I think we put a high tender on him and let him go for a 1st and a 3rd. He isnt worth Demarcus ware money imo.
Yes, Honzlovesdudesbecausehe'ssupergayandenjoysdudes, I did.
Touche.
Pick any QB in the NFL and put them in Chicago where Devin Hester is their starting WR, and tell me they do much better. I cant think of anyone that would do better.
Im sick of talking about Cutler, I dont watch his games, and I dont really know much about the 09 bears. So I dont have much else to add to that.
I assure you Palmer wouldn't have 20 INTs by week friggin 13. And when his team got to the redzone he wouldn't be throwing a pick 110% of the time.
Haynesworth has been a monster in Washington....
Yep, to the tune of 29 tackles and 3 sacks, now there's some bang for the buck!.
Ideally, Kyle Orton is the type of QB you want long-term as your backup QB.
It is nothing against Orton, but he is NOT the end all be all of QBs. What he can do in McDaniel's system versus what other QBs could do probably puts him in that 15-20 range of NFL-caliber QBs at best. You want to always continue to improve your football team. Orton is NOT the problem, but that does NOT mean he is the answer either.
Draft a young high talent QB (this does not write off Brandstater but only recognizes the probabilities of him becoming THE guy, it COULD happen, but it is still a LONG shot.) This could be the year to do it, lot's of QBs coming out, can you identify the one who will be the guy and each of them realistically could be there when we pick. This is no different than drafting Cutler when we had Plummer... if you have a chance at a franchise QB... you take it... everyone assumes we wouldn't because of New England, but Belichick was barely there when Brady emerged and even they didn't expect it. They had a 1st overall pick at QB, there was never any reason for them to draft a QB highly either before OR after Brady... to say they DON'T believe in it would be silly. I personally believe if you get a chance at a top 10-15 pick and have a shot at a guy, particularly in a crowded QB field where maybe one slips, you take him. Maybe you get Kyle Boller or maybe you get Aaron Rodgers.
I know we have other needs, but I think this is a long-term building project. I think with a rookie 1st rd talent QB for McDaniels to work with, Orton starting for two years and Brandstater for insurance or possibly as a surprise... you give yourself the best odds of solidifying the most important position on the field.
So, BTW..
I would say 5 years 25mil with about 12 mil guaranteed would seem fair. Depends on the CBA, but it would be structured such that early on he is paid the equivalent of a starter, but then just a quality backup (who get about 2-3mil/yr these days.)
Yep, to the tune of 29 tackles and 3 sacks, now there's some bang for the buck!.
Uhhh.............
As a DT last year they broke down the film and figured out on average he was able to move an offensive lineman five feet backwards..... That's staggering..
He demands a double team every play, and 3 sacks in a year for his position is pretty good. I'll put it to you this way, he can play DT, DE and NT. If he was on Denver's defensive line you'd have the best defense in the league.
He's one of the best defensive players the league's seen in a long time.
Medford Bronco
12-09-2009, 03:36 PM
Hey Clay.....give me the number of winning seasons Cutler has had in his high school, college and NFL careers. Now....how many of those seasons was he lighting up his stats?
His teams must always suck then. its the Ds fault:laugh:
rationalfan
12-09-2009, 03:37 PM
Orton wants Cassel type money: about $50 million for 5 years with about $30 million guaranteed. :
source?
rationalfan
12-09-2009, 03:39 PM
Ideally, Kyle Orton is the type of QB you want long-term as your backup QB.
It is nothing against Orton, but he is NOT the end all be all of QBs. What he can do in McDaniel's system versus what other QBs could do probably puts him in that 15-20 range of NFL-caliber QBs at best. You want to always continue to improve your football team. Orton is NOT the problem, but that does NOT mean he is the answer either.
Draft a young high talent QB (this does not write off Brandstater but only recognizes the probabilities of him becoming THE guy, it COULD happen, but it is still a LONG shot.) This could be the year to do it, lot's of QBs coming out, can you identify the one who will be the guy and each of them realistically could be there when we pick. This is no different than drafting Cutler when we had Plummer... if you have a chance at a franchise QB... you take it... everyone assumes we wouldn't because of New England, but Belichick was barely there when Brady emerged and even they didn't expect it. They had a 1st overall pick at QB, there was never any reason for them to draft a QB highly either before OR after Brady... to say they DON'T believe in it would be silly. I personally believe if you get a chance at a top 10-15 pick and have a shot at a guy, particularly in a crowded QB field where maybe one slips, you take him. Maybe you get Kyle Boller or maybe you get Aaron Rodgers.
I know we have other needs, but I think this is a long-term building project. I think with a rookie 1st rd talent QB for McDaniels to work with, Orton starting for two years and Brandstater for insurance or possibly as a surprise... you give yourself the best odds of solidifying the most important position on the field.
i'm continually amazed at how obsessed some people are with the draft. and old notions about the paramount importance of "franchise" quarterbacks. and of discussing the future during a present that includes a team fighting for the postseason.
no offense to anyone in particular, but these gm mindgames get really old.
i'm continually amazed at how obsessed some people are with the draft. and old notions about the paramount importance of "franchise" quarterbacks. and of discussing the future during a present that includes a team fighting for the postseason.
no offense to anyone in particular, but these gm mindgames get really old.
This.
topscribe
12-09-2009, 03:47 PM
Not everyone gets a new contract
Except they're not letting Prater go.
Nonetheless, everybody is waiting for the new contract, not just Orton.
That is shaping up apparently to be Xanders'/Orton's M.O.
-----
claymore
12-09-2009, 03:50 PM
i'm continually amazed at how obsessed some people are with the draft. and old notions about the paramount importance of "franchise" quarterbacks. and of discussing the future during a present that includes a team fighting for the postseason.
no offense to anyone in particular, but these gm mindgames get really old.
The Draft..... To me has become more fun than watching the SB. Everyone is involved, and the process leading up to it is full of twists and turns.
I like it almost as much as football season itself. Its a man soap opera...
topscribe
12-09-2009, 03:52 PM
Uhhh.............
As a DT last year they broke down the film and figured out on average he was able to move an offensive lineman five feet backwards..... That's staggering..
He demands a double team every play, and 3 sacks in a year for his position is pretty good. I'll put it to you this way, he can play DT, DE and NT. If he was on Denver's defensive line you'd have the best defense in the league.
He's one of the best defensive players the league's seen in a long time.
That's what I'm hoping to see out of Baker. McDaniels commented on how
Baker could knock the opponents backward off the line. The only problem is that
he is very raw at this time.
-----
Uhhh.............
As a DT last year they broke down the film and figured out on average he was able to move an offensive lineman five feet backwards..... That's staggering..
He demands a double team every play, and 3 sacks in a year for his position is pretty good. I'll put it to you this way, he can play DT, DE and NT. If he was on Denver's defensive line you'd have the best defense in the league.
He's one of the best defensive players the league's seen in a long time.
His face stomping abilities are Top 5 of all time, as well. :D
Just had to.
CoachChaz
12-09-2009, 04:38 PM
His face stomping abilities are Top 5 of all time, as well. :D
Just had to.
Yeah, but who better to pull a stunt like that on than a Dallas Cowboy lineman. My only regret is that it was Gurode and not Adams
Yeah, but who better to pull a stunt like that on than a Dallas Cowboy lineman. My only regret is that it was Gurode and not Adams
Mr. Flozell does need a face stomping or a bench sitting for all his dirty play this year. :yardog: Why that guy is still on the field is beyond me. Guy has been fined a crapload of money numerous times, ALL for dirty shots and they haven't decided he needs a timeout yet?
Timmy!
12-09-2009, 04:58 PM
source?
echoechoecho
:D
topscribe
12-09-2009, 05:47 PM
echoechoecho
:D
:cricket:
-----
SOCALORADO.
12-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Ideally, Kyle Orton is the type of QB you want long-term as your backup QB.
It is nothing against Orton, but he is NOT the end all be all of QBs. What he can do in McDaniel's system versus what other QBs could do probably puts him in that 15-20 range of NFL-caliber QBs at best. You want to always continue to improve your football team. Orton is NOT the problem, but that does NOT mean he is the answer either.
Draft a young high talent QB (this does not write off Brandstater but only recognizes the probabilities of him becoming THE guy, it COULD happen, but it is still a LONG shot.) This could be the year to do it, lot's of QBs coming out, can you identify the one who will be the guy and each of them realistically could be there when we pick. This is no different than drafting Cutler when we had Plummer... if you have a chance at a franchise QB... you take it... everyone assumes we wouldn't because of New England, but Belichick was barely there when Brady emerged and even they didn't expect it. They had a 1st overall pick at QB, there was never any reason for them to draft a QB highly either before OR after Brady... to say they DON'T believe in it would be silly. I personally believe if you get a chance at a top 10-15 pick and have a shot at a guy, particularly in a crowded QB field where maybe one slips, you take him. Maybe you get Kyle Boller or maybe you get Aaron Rodgers.
I know we have other needs, but I think this is a long-term building project. I think with a rookie 1st rd talent QB for McDaniels to work with, Orton starting for two years and Brandstater for insurance or possibly as a surprise... you give yourself the best odds of solidifying the most important position on the field.
OK i'll bite. So who does DEN draft?
I would like to see QB Ryan Mallett ARK, but only if DEN can somehow trade down a bit and maybe aquire another pick.
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-09-2009, 06:04 PM
I'd bet we draft a QB late, I don't see us getting one within the first 3 picks however.
Bozo Jr.
12-09-2009, 08:18 PM
"he's an above average stat guy with a flair for making the losing play."
Quote of the day! Brilliantly stated, and Oh so true!
I'd bet we draft a QB late, I don't see us getting one within the first 3 picks however.
I don't see us taking another "project" QB in the late rounds, unless the coaching staff decides after 1 year that Brandstater isn't even worth keeping.
Edit: Actually, I see one other scenario where this may happen. If we release Simms and decide Brandstater is ready to be the 2nd QB, then yes we would likely take another QB late in the draft.
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 01:28 AM
I just do not understand the we have to have a franchise QB to win.. thus having to draft one on day one..
the odds are 50-50 at best that a number one QB will be anything but a money drain let alone be worth a crap for 3-4 years..
John Elways and Payton Manning's come around every 20-30 years.. beyond that it is hit and miss.
for those that do not remember Brady was a late round pick and was hardly a Franchise QB initially and now with the help of great coaching and really good talent around him he is..
I do not see us getting a QB day one unless there are NO better players on the board..
please folks stop the "franchise" Qb dreaming.. we have way to many other spots that need help first..
drewloc
12-10-2009, 05:47 AM
Except they're not letting Prater go.
Nonetheless, everybody is waiting for the new contract, not just Orton.
That is shaping up apparently to be Xanders'/Orton's M.O.
-----
Yeah I would be shocked if Prater walks, especially if he keeps up his consistency this year. I really don't want to go through another year of holding my breath on FG's.
That said, I don't know if we would take a QB round 1, it's been said on a few sites that QB is a pretty deep position this draft. If they were going to draft a QB in the top 2-3 rounds, I could see them trying to get Orton for a couple more years and let the rookie learn in that time. It's never been shown that McD will take a QB high, he hasn't in the past, but he's never really had too either.
claymore
12-10-2009, 08:19 AM
Kyle Orton tackles the term "franchise quarterback"
Posted by Mike Florio on December 10, 2009 7:18 AM ET
As Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton nudges toward the completion of his current contract in his first season with his current team after four in Chicago, one of the big questions facing his current team is whether Orton will be locked up for the long haul.
And that reality apparently prompted a member of the media to ask Orton on Wednesday to talk about the term "franchise quarterback."
Apparently, Orton believes that the term "franchise quarterback" arises only when the "franchise" feels a certain way about its "quarterback."
"That's all on the franchise," Orton said in comments distributed by the team. "That's all on the organization. That's probably the only way you can decide that is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one. I guess we'll just wait and see."
In other words, Orton believes that if a team makes a long-term commitment to a quarterback by paying him a huge amount of money, then he's a "franchise quarterback."
We might not be able to come up with an accurate description of what a "franchise quarterback" clearly is, but in the present context we only need to focus on what a "franchise quarterback" clearly isn't.
Orton clearly isn't.
Exhibit A, he has a career passer rating of 76.0.
Exhibit B, his passer rating for the current season is 88.2.
Exhibit C, he was a free-rope-when-you-buy-a-Christmas-tree afterthought in the trade that sent the true "franchise quarterback" (who might not be one, after all) to Chicago in exchange for two first-round draft picks.
And if Orton is looking for a big contract that would make him a "franchise quarterback," he likely will continue to wait. Absent a new Collective Bargaining Agreement, he'll be a restricted free agent in March 2010, and the Broncos will be able to retain his rights with a one-year contract offer in the range of $3 million.
And that would be Exhibit D.Ortons worth 3 mill. Good news for the Broncos. Now we dont have to rush things.
getagrip
12-10-2009, 11:35 AM
I think you guys can get one in the middle rounds and have him sit and learn. Orton get's it done but his down field throws lack that "zoom". But with that said, Orton is a BETTER option for a TEAM then Cutler...
Just watch this and see for yourselves...
http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/pick_sick.htm
hope you enjoy.....(i did)
T.K.O.
12-10-2009, 11:57 AM
Big Ben had a good Offense, defense, good running backs, and good ST's. I wonder if that helped them win any games?
Name a QB that single handedly brought a team to a SB, and won it.
my point exactly, that is why it is possible to win a championship without a qb throwing for 5000 yds and 50 td's.
all you need is a balanced offense and a team that plays 100% in all phases of the game and any team has a shot......even kyle orton and the broncos !:salute:
claymore
12-10-2009, 12:03 PM
my point exactly, that is why it is possible to win a championship without a qb throwing for 5000 yds and 50 td's.
all you need is a balanced offense and a team that plays 100% in all phases of the game and any team has a shot......even kyle orton and the broncos !:salute:
We need a far better Defense, andST's for Orton to win us a SB. When we go thru our spurts of not converting 3rd downs our defense wears out.
CoachChaz
12-10-2009, 12:04 PM
We need a far better Defense, andST's for Orton to win us a SB. When we go thru our spurts of not converting 3rd downs our defense wears out.
That's a given and I think we can legitimately expect it to happen. i dont see McD drafting and signing too many RB's and WR's in the off-season
56crash
12-10-2009, 12:05 PM
The Draft..... To me has become more fun than watching the SB. Everyone is involved, and the process leading up to it is full of twists and turns.
I like it almost as much as football season itself. Its a man soap opera...
you forgot the best part laying on the couch all week end and eating hoagies and drinking beer .built in excuse to act like the ass hat you want to be and everyone does the same ....:beer:
claymore
12-10-2009, 12:08 PM
you forgot the best part laying on the couch all week end and eating hoagies and drinking beer .built in excuse to act like the ass hat you want to be and everyone does the same ....:beer:
Every year my wife acts shocked when I pull the "Dont expect anything whatsoever out of me this weekend".
Requiem / The Dagda
12-10-2009, 12:09 PM
You say that every weekend.
claymore
12-10-2009, 12:14 PM
You say that every weekend.
Thats why Im shocked that see seems suprised for one week in April. :D
He is a LB'er now. And I think we put a high tender on him and let him go for a 1st and a 3rd. He isnt worth Demarcus ware money imo.
How many draft picks does one team need?, you guys are turning into the Patriots out there....j/k!. You can never have enough stockpiled. Our joke of a GM can't draft, so he just gives away our picks every year by trading down for garbage. Not once during his tenure has he actually moved up. Denver picked Clady 2 spots ahead of us in 2008, we got stuck with an average tackle in Chris Williams. At one point, the Bears actually had no scouts(they try and cut corners in ways nobody can see).
Can you imagine going into an NFL draft with player information based solely on the combine and no scouting reports?...that's why our team is a mess.
Whomever posted that Mike Florio article here answered my questions, Orton's going to have to wait apparently until the NFL cap issue is finalized. BTW, I like what I see in Denver. I watched Morenos' college films before the draft, he's a complete RB. Guys who can run, block, and catch well are a rare find these days. Those 4 losses earlier in the season built character and identity(something Chicago has none of right now). All in all, the balance of the Broncos makes them a team nobody wants to face in the playoffs.
Biz
claymore
12-10-2009, 12:35 PM
How many draft picks does one team need?, you guys are turning into the Patriots out there....j/k!. You can never have enough stockpiled. Our joke of a GM can't draft, so he just gives away our picks every year by trading down for garbage. Not once during his tenure has he actually moved up. Denver picked Clady 2 spots ahead of us in 2008, we got stuck with an average tackle in Chris Williams. At one point, the Bears actually had no scouts(they try and cut corners in ways nobody can see).
Can you imagine going into an NFL draft with player information based solely on the combine and no scouting reports?...that's why our team is a mess.
Whomever posted that Mike Florio article here answered my questions, Orton's going to have to wait apparently until the NFL cap issue is finalized. BTW, I like what I see in Denver. I watched Morenos' college films before the draft, he's a complete RB. Guys who can run, block, and catch well are a rare find these days. Those 4 losses earlier in the season built character and identity(something Chicago has none of right now). All in all, the balance of the Broncos makes them a team nobody wants to face in the playoffs.
Biz
Id be shocked if Orton expected a payday. In his case a lack of a CBA is really benificial.
Id like to see another full year of Orton before we paid him more than a 2nd -3rd tier money for a QB.
Hopefully he improves after going thru another offseason. He to me just looks scared of screwing up. If we can get the Purdue guy back I think we will be golden.
Id be shocked if Orton expected a payday. In his case a lack of a CBA is really benificial.
Id like to see another full year of Orton before we paid him more than a 2nd -3rd tier money for a QB.
Hopefully he improves after going thru another offseason. He to me just looks scared of screwing up. If we can get the Purdue guy back I think we will be golden.
The knock on Orton has always been a noodle arm, but its' really not that bad. I watched him at Purdue(a friend of mine is an alum and we used to tailgate). There was nothing wrong with his arm in college, plus he had great QB coaching there after Drew Brees graduated. Kyle Orton is not worth "franchise QB" $$ b/c his arm strength and mobility are average. Then again, Joe Montana didn't have a great arm or mobility either. Not to compare the 2, but smart QB's can become great QB's with average talent.
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 12:58 PM
The knock on Orton has always been a noodle arm, but its' really not that bad. I watched him at Purdue(a friend of mine is an alum and we used to tailgate). There was nothing wrong with his arm in college, plus he had great QB coaching there after Drew Brees graduated. Kyle Orton is not worth "franchise QB" $$ b/c his arm strength and mobility are average. Then again, Joe Montana didn't have a great arm or mobility either. Not to compare the 2, but smart QB's can become great QB's with average talent.
I think its that smart QBs can become great with ABOVE average talent. Especially when the QB doesn't have above average ability.
I don't know what we are going to do with Orton. He's not the kind of talent you spend Franchise Tag money on. Plus, that would simply be another one-year rental. The only reason you would franchise tag him, would be if you planned on extending his contract during next season, or after next season. If thats the case, do it now and don't spend Franchise tag money.
But then you have to wonder if you want to give him a long term contract. Do we? really? I'm not so sure. Then there is Orton. He's not going to want to sign a short term contract. Is he going to get interest from other teams? Probably not many, but we know that Cleveland, Rams, Buffalo... might be looking for a QB.
I personally don't want to sign Orton to a long-term contract..but at the same time... we dont' exactly have a lot of options on the roster, and I'm pretty confident that our 6th round pick QB isn't the answer.
If Orton takes you guys to the playoffs and you make some noise then he is worth the franchise tag.
Remember that feeling of dread when Cutler left and your QB was going to be 'bad'? I can assure you that if you watched Orton play in another city and just be average and you then miss the playoffs you'll feel worse than you have recently about Bronco football.
claymore
12-10-2009, 01:03 PM
The knock on Orton has always been a noodle arm, but its' really not that bad. I watched him at Purdue(a friend of mine is an alum and we used to tailgate). There was nothing wrong with his arm in college, plus he had great QB coaching there after Drew Brees graduated. Kyle Orton is not worth "franchise QB" $$ b/c his arm strength and mobility are average. Then again, Joe Montana didn't have a great arm or mobility either. Not to compare the 2, but smart QB's can become great QB's with average talent.
IMO it isnt an armstrength thing at all. He just seems hesitant to throw a ball over the Offensive line. Its always a screen or a checkdown.
I cant remember him hitting a WR/RB in stride either. He's over thinking or scared.
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 01:03 PM
I don't think Orton is worth franchise tag money, playoffs or not. Cassel sucks, and got 60+ Million. I don't want to see us do that with Orton. I know some would love it, but I want the freedom to go after a franchise-type QB. The Chiefs won't be able to do that for a while now.
Medford Bronco
12-10-2009, 01:05 PM
I think you guys can get one in the middle rounds and have him sit and learn. Orton get's it done but his down field throws lack that "zoom". But with that said, Orton is a BETTER option for a TEAM then Cutler...
Just watch this and see for yourselves...
http://www.bangcartoon.com/2009/pick_sick.htm
hope you enjoy.....(i did)
good sensible post.
you mean 6 ints is not better than 20 for the overrated :franchiseQB:
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 01:26 PM
So folks pray tell who is a franchise QB anyone drafted in the top 10.
To me a franchise QB is someone that wins and does not turn the ball over putting the defense in a hole.
Pretty simple IMHO.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
I think its that smart QBs can become great with ABOVE average talent. Especially when the QB doesn't have above average ability.
I don't know what we are going to do with Orton. He's not the kind of talent you spend Franchise Tag money on. Plus, that would simply be another one-year rental. The only reason you would franchise tag him, would be if you planned on extending his contract during next season, or after next season. If thats the case, do it now and don't spend Franchise tag money.
But then you have to wonder if you want to give him a long term contract. Do we? really? I'm not so sure. Then there is Orton. He's not going to want to sign a short term contract. Is he going to get interest from other teams? Probably not many, but we know that Cleveland, Rams, Buffalo... might be looking for a QB.
I personally don't want to sign Orton to a long-term contract..but at the same time... we dont' exactly have a lot of options on the roster, and I'm pretty confident that our 6th round pick QB isn't the answer.
Don't be surprised to see some interest out of the Bay area for Orton, both the Raiders and particularly the 49ers need a QB. Personally, if I were the GM in Denver and was thinking about tagging a player...it certainly wouldn't be Kyle Orton at a whopping $14M for one season. You have other players you can tag for less $$ and still keep Orton. Kyle deserves a raise, but even he knows that it's the McDaniels/Patriots system that creates QB success. The talent around Orton is solid, in this case it's padding his stats.
Medford Bronco
12-10-2009, 01:28 PM
So folks pray tell who is a franchise QB anyone drafted in the top 10.
To me a franchise QB is someone that wins and does not turn the ball over putting the defense in a hole.
Pretty simple IMHO.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
YOu mean franchise Qbs like Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb
some that are franchise Qbs were drafted much later
or played in the arena league
Brady
Warner
Brees
these guys actually are HOfers or close to being HOFers
not 22-27 in their career and lead the league in Red Zone picks.
IMO it isnt an armstrength thing at all. He just seems hesitant to throw a ball over the Offensive line. Its always a screen or a checkdown.
I cant remember him hitting a WR/RB in stride either. He's over thinking or scared.
That's Kyle Orton being conservative, we coached him to play like that here in Chicago. He needs to fully buy into his coaches and WR's and forget what we taught him.
topscribe
12-10-2009, 01:43 PM
That's Kyle Orton being conservative, we coached him to play like that here in Chicago. He needs to fully buy into his coaches and WR's and forget what we taught him.
Kyle mentioned that he is "learning to trust" Marshall. That implies to me that
he might be recovering from a bad to mediocre O-line and bad to mediocre
receiving corps. A guy like Marshall is open when he's not open--if you get my
drift--but Chicago didn't have anyone like Marshall.
I have noticed that Kyle is taking more shots downfield as the season progresses . . .
-----
claymore
12-10-2009, 01:46 PM
So folks pray tell who is a franchise QB anyone drafted in the top 10.
To me a franchise QB is someone that wins and does not turn the ball over putting the defense in a hole.
Pretty simple IMHO.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
So you didnt like Elway either huh?
That's Kyle Orton being conservative, we coached him to play like that here in Chicago. He needs to fully buy into his coaches and WR's and forget what we taught him.
I really believe this. No offense, but I think another year or two in Chicago would have ruined Orton. Killed his fire or whatever.
Kyle mentioned that he is "learning to trust" Marshall. That implies to me that
he might be recovering from a bad to mediocre O-line and bad to mediocre
receiving corps. A guy like Marshall is open when he's not open--if you get my
drift--but Chicago didn't have anyone like Marshall.
I have noticed that Kyle is taking more shots downfield as the season progresses . . .
-----
When Orton was a rookie, he was given a list of about 10 plays to run after Grossman went down. Halas Hall coached him to not lose games rather than to make plays. He never had anyone to throw to except for Bernard Berrian(who couldn't run a route until signing in Minny anyways). Orton's still un-learning some poor coaching courtesy of the Bears IMO. On the flipside, is it really necessary for Kyle to force balls into Marshall?. At this point, I would say it may not be a great idea to push it. But at some point, Orton will have to take more risk to win a playoff game and fully utilize his surrounding talent. For that to happen, it might be a good idea to implement a few more designed passes down field...yet at the same time stick to what got the team to 8-4.
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 06:00 PM
good sensible post.
you mean 6 ints is not better than 20 for the overrated :franchiseQB:
YOu mean franchise Qbs like Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb
some that are franchise Qbs were drafted much later
or played in the arena league
Brady
Warner
Brees
these guys actually are HOfers or close to being HOFers
not 22-27 in their career and lead the league in Red Zone picks.
Medford, seriously.. we GET it. You ar sure to use EVER thread to point it out... you don't like Cutler. You think he is over rated... you mention his INTs at EVERY chance you get.... WE GOT IT.
Cutler is gone. Cutler being our franchise QB is no longer a possibility whether you wanted him to be or not. He's there, and not here. He's no longer our problem, or.. our gain. He's NOT HERE. Orton is, and HE is the topic at which you CONSTANTLY want to switch AWAY from, in order to talk about OTHER QBs that are NOT here.
Seems the only way some want to BOOST Orton, is to put down others. I'm sure we'll be having those debates PLENTY down the road. But can we PLEASE have a single discussion, a discussion that was SPECIFICALLY about Orton on THIS team without the CONSTANT need to turn this into another Orton vs Cutler argument? Damn.
Back on Topic:
Orton is 3-14 ANYTIME the opposing team scores a measly 10 points in the second half of the game. That goes back to every start he's had in the NFL.. he's only had 17 games where the opposing teams have scored 10 points in the second half (not counting games in which he either came in late, or was taken out of the game), and he's lost 82% of those games. DOes that spell franchise QB to you? Really? A guy that absolutely NEEDs the defense to shut the other team out, or you lose? Is that the kind of QB we would be willing to give franchise money too, or franchise contract too? A game manager.
Football is a team sport. Orton has had the benefit of playing with some pretty damned good defenses (Chicago and the defense that shut teams COMPLETELY OUT in 5 of our first 6 wins). That would help any QB win games. So this is why I wouldn't DARE call Orton a "Franchise QB" despite his W-L record... and that has NOTHING to do with prior QBs.
topscribe
12-10-2009, 06:07 PM
When Orton was a rookie, he was given a list of about 10 plays to run after Grossman went down. Halas Hall coached him to not lose games rather than to make plays. He never had anyone to throw to except for Bernard Berrian(who couldn't run a route until signing in Minny anyways). Orton's still un-learning some poor coaching courtesy of the Bears IMO. On the flipside, is it really necessary for Kyle to force balls into Marshall?. At this point, I would say it may not be a great idea to push it. But at some point, Orton will have to take more risk to win a playoff game and fully utilize his surrounding talent. For that to happen, it might be a good idea to implement a few more designed passes down field...yet at the same time stick to what got the team to 8-4.
Orton himself said he's still getting acclimated to the system and developing a
rhythm between him and the receivers. I believe it will take the rest of the
season and another offseason before we see his best. (I also believe that of
Cutler, BTW.)
-----
Timmy!
12-10-2009, 07:10 PM
Oh look. A Cutler thread.
http://www.productwiki.com/upload/images/poop-400-400.jpg
T.K.O.
12-10-2009, 07:20 PM
Back on Topic:
Orton is 3-14 ANYTIME the opposing team scores a measly 10 points in the second half of the game.
.
yeah......well......he's 8-4 as a bronco !:eek:
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-10-2009, 07:38 PM
yeah......well......he's 8-4 as a bronco !:eek:
8-2 if you ask me.
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 08:35 PM
8-2 if you ask me.
offically 8-3 as they were the games he started..
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-10-2009, 08:46 PM
offically 8-3 as they were the games he started..
That's exactly why I said "If you ask me", not "officially".
:mad:
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 08:57 PM
yeah......well......he's 8-4 as a bronco !:eek:
Fair enough.
How many of those 4 losses did the a team score 10 points in the second half, and how many of those 8 wins did the other team score 10 points in the second half?
The answer is .. all of them, and none of them. The 8-4 is great. But I DO know that in order to compete in this league, especially in the playoffs, we WILL have to score with offenses that SCORE points. Expecting our defense to hold the team scoreless, or less than a TD and FG in the second half... is unreasonable.
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 09:02 PM
Fair enough.
How many of those 4 losses did the a team score 10 points in the second half, and how many of those 8 wins did the other team score 10 points in the second half?
The answer is .. all of them, and none of them. The 8-4 is great. But I DO know that in order to compete in this league, especially in the playoffs, we WILL have to score with offenses that SCORE points. Expecting our defense to hold the team scoreless, or less than a TD and FG in the second half... is unreasonable.
Speaking ONLY as a poster here..
just as you said to MED
"Medford, seriously.. we GET it. You are sure to use EVER thread to point it out... you don't like Orton. You think he is over rated... you don't mention his INTs at EVERY chance you get.... WE GOT IT."
you do not like Orton enough said.. you are not going to convert the unwashed to your way of thinking just like you did not in the Jake wars..
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Speaking ONLY as a poster here..
just as you said to MED
you do not like Orton enough said.. you are not going to convert the unwashed to your way of thinking just like you did not in the Jake wars..
I was sticking with the topic...
The topic is about Orton's contract.. right? What its up to, what we do, what we should do, what we shouldn't do.
HENCE... the "concerns" I have with Orton and his ability to score when the game is on his back, is VERY MUCH on topic with this discussion. Despite the fact that YOU don't like the "negative" Points I bring up.
But the fact that you AGAIN bring up Jake... is PRICELESS!!!! :lol: THEN YOU try and say you are ONLY posting as a POSTER!!! hahaha..
TOOOO funny. But if you don't want people to talk about Orton in an Orton thread... Uhmmmmmmm........where do we?
Timmy!
12-10-2009, 09:15 PM
I like bacon.
Day1BroncoFan
12-10-2009, 09:17 PM
I like bacon.
Put some on Orton's contract.
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 09:17 PM
I was sticking with the topic...
The topic is about Orton's contract.. right? What its up to, what we do, what we should do, what we shouldn't do.
HENCE... the "concerns" I have with Orton and his ability to score when the game is on his back, is VERY MUCH on topic with this discussion. Despite the fact that YOU don't like the "negative" Points I bring up.
But the fact that you AGAIN bring up Jake... is PRICELESS!!!! :lol: THEN YOU try and say you are ONLY posting as a POSTER!!! hahaha..
that was what the Post was from me as a poster.. with NO mod authority at all..
you can beat the dead horse all you want .. but it boils down to you loving someone no longer here and not liking who OUR QB is.. trying to tear him down in every post..
I stopped doing this with two ex broncos a couple of weeks ago.. with the hopes others would take the hint..
we GET that you do not like Orton, nor for that matter Josh much..
but IMHO time has come to stop tearing down the QB in hopes that someone in the bronco FO will hear you and draft a QB on day one next year..
The way I see it Josh has a lot invested in KO and unless he completely unravels over the next few games he will be resigned to a long term contract..
if your hoping someone from the Broncos will see it write them or post over on mania where folks will listen to you..
I also invite you to ignore my posts as for the most part they are PRO JOSH and Orton.
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 09:26 PM
that was what the Post was from me as a poster.. with NO mod authority at all..
you can beat the dead horse all you want .. but it boils down to you loving someone no longer here and not liking who OUR QB is.. trying to tear him down in every post..
I stopped doing this with two ex broncos a couple of weeks ago.. with the hopes others would take the hint..
we GET that you do not like Orton, nor for that matter Josh much..
but IMHO time has come to stop tearing down the QB in hopes that someone in the bronco FO will hear you and draft a QB on day one next year..
The way I see it Josh has a lot invested in KO and unless he completely unravels over the next few games he will be resigned to a long term contract..
if your hoping someone from the Broncos will see it write them or post over on mania where folks will listen to you..
I also invite you to ignore my posts as for the most part they are PRO JOSH and Orton.
Then STATE your opinion of him..
But me pointing out NEGATIVE reasons as to why NOT to sign him to a big contract ... is RIGHT ON TOPIC. My NEgative points of FACT, are NO different than someone saying "well he's 8-4 as a Bronco." Why don't YOU (as a POSTER) correct HIM on trying to change My mind???
I've already posted my comments and my feelings towards Josh in ANOTHER thread..a nd they aren't anything NEAR what you are suggesting.
Not only are you STRAYING off topic because it fits your needs, but are STRAYING because you HATE when someone posts something other than positive comments towards a QB you like , just like you did with Plummer (see, I can bring up Old topics as well).. but yOU LOVE LOVE LOVE to bring up and Tear down shanahan and former QBs ALLLLLL friggin day.
So.. until you can stop being a hypocrite to the 10th degree, please, as a MOD.... keep the thread on topic and quit trying to change this into another debate on who likes/hates whom.
TEARING him down, or BUILDING him up, is EXACTLY what a contract discussion is about. So please, its time to STOP telling me its "time to stop" ANYTHING. Unless you are saying (as a poster or a mod) that we are only allowed to say "happy" things about our QB and HOPE that we sign him to a BIG lucrative contract???
T.K.O.
12-10-2009, 09:55 PM
i think its pretty obvious that orton is our best option THIS year and most likely next....if he will play for the expected 3 mil it will cost to keep him next year it would be perfect.
giving us the chance to groom brandstater or another draft/fa qb we might get this spring.
mcD has faith that orton can run his offense,he has done a pretty good job thus far and could well lead the broncos deep into rthe postseason.maybe not?
b ut it makes alot of sense to keep a steady guy at the position for at least 1 more season...otherwise we have pretty much wasted this year getting everyone on the same page.
so.....is orton going to win multiple sb's with the broncos....probably not.
would the team be immediatly better with another available qb.....definately not!:salute:
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 10:01 PM
Then STATE your opinion of him.. Wiz
But me pointing out NEGATIVE reasons as to why NOT to sign him to a big contract ... is RIGHT ON TOPIC. My NEgative points of FACT, are NO different than someone saying "well he's 8-4 as a Bronco." Why don't YOU (as a POSTER) correct HIM on trying to change My mind???
I've already posted my comments and my feelings towards Josh in ANOTHER thread..a nd they aren't anything NEAR what you are suggesting.
Not only are you STRAYING off topic because it fits your needs, but are STRAYING because you HATE when someone posts something other than positive comments towards a QB you like , just like you did with Plummer (see, I can bring up Old topics as well).. but yOU LOVE LOVE LOVE to bring up and Tear down shanahan and former QBs ALLLLLL friggin day.
So.. until you can stop being a hypocrite to the 10th degree, please, as a MOD.... keep the thread on topic and quit trying to change this into another debate on who likes/hates whom.
TEARING him down, or BUILDING him up, is EXACTLY what a contract discussion is about. So please, its time to STOP telling me its "time to stop" ANYTHING. Unless you are saying (as a poster or a mod) that we are only allowed to say "happy" things about our QB and HOPE that we sign him to a BIG lucrative contract???
I said we all know your position you dislike the guy and are still on a rant about someone else not being here..
I have stated my opine about KO in many threads and while you have the right to restate your point ad nauseam, you are not going to change anyone minds.. those that dislike to hate Orton are firmly on your side.. those that think he can be a good quality QB to possibly a franchise QB are not..
continue if you wish but you are beating a dead horse.. was just trying to be a nice guy and send you a clue..
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 10:09 PM
i think its pretty obvious that orton is our best option THIS year and most likely next....if he will play for the expected 3 mil it will cost to keep him next year it would be perfect.
giving us the chance to groom brandstater or another draft/fa qb we might get this spring.
mcD has faith that orton can run his offense,he has done a pretty good job thus far and could well lead the broncos deep into rthe postseason.maybe not?
b ut it makes alot of sense to keep a steady guy at the position for at least 1 more season...otherwise we have pretty much wasted this year getting everyone on the same page.
so.....is orton going to win multiple sb's with the broncos....probably not.
would the team be immediatly better with another available qb.....definately not!:salute:
I agree that Orton will be the QB for the next dew years at least..
it would be silly of Josh to bring in a Newbie next year to go through the training process again..
it just sets back the program another few years IMHO..
it is a rare QB that can come in a start as a rookie.. and even rarer for one to come in and pick up this scheme from day one without scaling back the play book dramatically..
he has been able to run all the plays they put out there for him and with another couple of years of great QB coaching (something he did not have in CHI) and playing with a bucket load of talent so much to the point that many players can;t touch the ball enough to make their mark..
unless Orton wants the moon and I suspect he will give us a Home town discount because the team and FO embraced him from day one and got him out of a lousy place to play..
I have not seen any indication that he is a money grubbing whiny little bitch that would want the moon and stars in a contract..
Lonestar
12-10-2009, 10:14 PM
let me add if he does became a RFA then the worst that happens is we put a high tender on him and get a 1st and 3rd draft choice IF NOT match the contract.. if not offered/signed he gets about 3mil a year
I doubt that Orton would go anywhere else other than perhaps INDY, MIN or some other contending team over staying with us..
or worst we can declare him a franchise QB.. IIRC he gets about 8 mil a year..
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 10:15 PM
I said we all know your position you dislike the guy and are still on a rant about someone else not being here..
I have stated my opine about KO in many threads and while you have the right to restate your point ad nauseam, you are not going to change anyone minds.. those that dislike to hate Orton are firmly on your side.. those that think he can be a good quality QB to possibly a franchise QB are not..
continue if you wish but you are beating a dead horse.. was just trying to be a nice guy and send you a clue..
You don't HAVE a clue.
You are the LAST person I EVER want to get advice from about beating a dead horse. You are the epitomy of hypocrisy, and nothing you can say on this matter means anything to me.
My points were VALID and very much in theme and on subject to THIS thread. YOU.. have hijacked the thread, and turned it into something it's not.
If you are saying that we shouldn't debate or talk about topics anymore because they have ALREADY been said/talked about/debated, perhaps you should make a new sticky that lets everyone know that we should no longer make new threads that have any subject that has already been talked about. After all, you are the PERFECT example of letting things go :coffee: :lol:
You are right. I think I'll just go back to ignoring your posts.
Ravage!!!
12-10-2009, 10:27 PM
i think its pretty obvious that orton is our best option THIS year and most likely next....if he will play for the expected 3 mil it will cost to keep him next year it would be perfect.
giving us the chance to groom brandstater or another draft/fa qb we might get this spring.
mcD has faith that orton can run his offense,he has done a pretty good job thus far and could well lead the broncos deep into rthe postseason.maybe not?
b ut it makes alot of sense to keep a steady guy at the position for at least 1 more season...otherwise we have pretty much wasted this year getting everyone on the same page.
so.....is orton going to win multiple sb's with the broncos....probably not.
would the team be immediatly better with another available qb.....definately not!:salute:
I agree with everything you said here.. except your last sentence. Thats not true at all.
Look at the Falcons and Ravens last season. They were absolutely better off with their new QB than they were with their old one. More recently, look at the Vikings this year. They absolutely are better off with the QB they have this year over the one they had last. The Titans were MUCH better off with a different QB last year, and again are better off with the old one THIS year.. both changing part way through the season and being better for it (Please know, that I'm NOT saying we should, by any means, change QBs now). The Lions this year are better than they were last year with a new QB. San Fran is better off this year with Smith than they were with Hill last season. The Raiders are better of now with.. well... whatever his name is... over Russell. If you read some posters from this very board, you'll see that most believe this team is better off with Orton this year than they were with Cutler. ALLLL examples of a team getting BETTER by changing QBs.
But I think you are right, because you agreed with me! :beer: hahah
If we can get Orton to play football for us for another season for a low salary.. great. But realistically, that won't happen. Also, I feel very confident that the NFLPA and the Owners WILL get something done before the season starts next year. They will, they always do, and you'll see that they get it done at the last second. Even if that means they lock themselves in a room and not leave until its beaten out.
I don't think Brandy is the answer (and I say this purely based on the LARGE established pattern in the NFL that 6th round choices aren't the answer to the QB needs of a team. Sure there are the exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason).
So, there lies the dilemma. If the NFLPA gets the deal done, and Orton doesn't simply want to play here another season for a one year deal..... what do we do?
Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 12:05 AM
Unbelievable
rcsodak
12-11-2009, 12:12 AM
Medford, seriously.. we GET it. You ar sure to use EVER thread to point it out... you don't like Cutler. You think he is over rated... you mention his INTs at EVERY chance you get.... WE GOT IT.
Cutler is gone. Cutler being our franchise QB is no longer a possibility whether you wanted him to be or not. He's there, and not here. He's no longer our problem, or.. our gain. He's NOT HERE. Orton is, and HE is the topic at which you CONSTANTLY want to switch AWAY from, in order to talk about OTHER QBs that are NOT here.
Seems the only way some want to BOOST Orton, is to put down others. I'm sure we'll be having those debates PLENTY down the road. But can we PLEASE have a single discussion, a discussion that was SPECIFICALLY about Orton on THIS team without the CONSTANT need to turn this into another Orton vs Cutler argument? Damn.
Back on Topic:
Orton is 3-14 ANYTIME the opposing team scores a measly 10 points in the second half of the game. That goes back to every start he's had in the NFL.. he's only had 17 games where the opposing teams have scored 10 points in the second half (not counting games in which he either came in late, or was taken out of the game), and he's lost 82% of those games. DOes that spell franchise QB to you? Really? A guy that absolutely NEEDs the defense to shut the other team out, or you lose? Is that the kind of QB we would be willing to give franchise money too, or franchise contract too? A game manager.
Football is a team sport. Orton has had the benefit of playing with some pretty damned good defenses (Chicago and the defense that shut teams COMPLETELY OUT in 5 of our first 6 wins). That would help any QB win games. So this is why I wouldn't DARE call Orton a "Franchise QB" despite his W-L record... and that has NOTHING to do with prior QBs.
What a crock of shit, rav. You and your stats.
You could nit-pic EVERY damn QB out there, if you wanted to.
Good grief.
What's next?
When there's a full moon, and the humidity is above 45%, and the wind is blowing from the northeast above 4mph, and the team is wearing their 2" cleats, and he had chinese for dinner the night before, he loses? :rolleyes:
Hey, if Pitt allows the Browns to score 13pts when the windchill is -10, Ben will lose!!!!
Orton could be your Jon Kitna. Kitna started in Cincinnati while Palmer sat on the bench. Were I a Broncos fan, I wouldn't oppose taking a QB early.
rcsodak
12-11-2009, 12:32 AM
Orton could be your Jon Kitna. Kitna started in Cincinnati while Palmer sat on the bench. Were I a Broncos fan, I wouldn't oppose taking a QB early.
Losing teams take qb's in the 1st round. Or coaches that haven't been back to the SB after losing their HoF'er.
Winning teams continue to ADD to their team, attending to their most glaring weaknesses, or lack of depth.
Orton has been at the helm for a whole 12 games.
I repeat.
Orton has been at the helm for a WHOLE 12 GAMES!
In that time frame, he already has a better winning record than his predecessor.
He's not flashy.
He's not fleet of foot.
He doesn't own a cannon for an arm.
But...
He's admired by his teammates for his toughness.
He's got football smarts.
He doesn't lose games by throwing late-game-ending-int's.
He has almost 2x wins vs losses as a starting qb.
He only wins games.
He was cheap this year.
Up to this point, he's proven his worth, and then some.
Unless he completely tanks it in the next 4wks, like his predecessor, he'll DESERVE a raise. And then he'll have had a COMPLETE YEAR of McD's system under his belt. Need I repeat that last sentence? :confused:
Anybody/everybody that knows anything about football, can see the areas of the team that need attention.
Starting qb, is NOT one of them.
Timmy!
12-11-2009, 12:40 AM
8-3 record. 2-1 TD-INT ratio.
This guy sucks balls! Bring us his head! :protest:
:tsk:
RC I was one of his biggest supporters during the offseason because I watched him play well in Chicago only to get shit on.
You could stand to draft some safetys, some interior lineman, some depth on your defensive line and maybe a TE (I think someone's contract's up and they may command some decent money).
My point is that Orton is a good player, but he's not a worldbeater. I would guess that eventually McDaniels is going to want a worldbeater. I could be wrong, but you can also take your 'anyone who knows football' spiel shove it. :D
Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 12:49 AM
[/B]
What a crock of shit, rav. You and your stats.
You could nit-pic EVERY damn QB out there, if you wanted to.
Good grief.
What's next?
When there's a full moon, and the humidity is above 45%, and the wind is blowing from the northeast above 4mph, and the team is wearing their 2" cleats, and he had chinese for dinner the night before, he loses? :rolleyes:
Hey, if Pitt allows the Browns to score 13pts when the windchill is -10, Ben will lose!!!!
Come on. Thats not a crock, but a legitimate concern. The guy has shown, over his career THUS far, that he either doesn't score enough points to keep up with a team that scores points. How is that full of crap? Because it doesn't COMPLIMENT your QB? Seriously... explain. Tell me how this is NOT a concern if you are wanting to PAY for a franchise QB or give a QB a long term contract???
This is an OBVIOUS observation that absolutely holds water. 10 points? Its not like its a BIG number. TEN points is SMALL amount. Its not like I'm picking a HIGH number of points for a team to score and keep up with. TEN lousy points!
Rex Grossman (chose Grossman because he not only supposedly had the better defense, but obviously is the closest to having the same team, and playing the same opponents than anyone else), the ONE year he started, AND, the year that their "defense" took them to the Super Bowl.... allowed 10 points in the second Half in 9 games (one in the playoffs and one in the Super Bowl).
Of the 7 regular season games in which the other team scored 10 points, Rex won 6. He won one game in the playoffs and then lost the Super Bowl when a team scored 10 points in the second half.... so he was 7-2... with a team that was considered to have a GREAT defense.
9 games (out of 19 games) in ONE year, and Orton has just 17 in how 5 seasons of game (40+ games started because he didn't start all of them, obviously).
So although Grossman had the better defense in 2006, they STILL allowed 10 points in the second half in 9 games. Grossman won 77% of the time while Orton has won 17% of the time (3-14)
A silly stat? Maybe. But the reason it even came to mind to look up was seeing the stat that our defense didn't allow a SINGLE point in the second half for FIVE games straight! Thats HUGE for a QB. But when ANY team has scored 10 points against us THIS year...we've lost.
Grossman isn't a franchise QB by any means..but at least he showed he can score points in the second half. Isn't that important to have if you are going to pay a QB long-term or give big bucks too? Is it a coincidence that Orton keeps losing anytime the other team scores in the second half?
I don't know, but I know if I'm handing out money to a QB to be the long-term solution...... I want to feel confident that the game can be on his shoulders when we NEED it to be. How is that such a crock?
rcsodak
12-11-2009, 12:52 AM
RC I was one of his biggest supporters during the offseason because I watched him play well in Chicago only to get shit on.
You could stand to draft some safetys, some interior lineman, some depth on your defensive line and maybe a TE (I think someone's contract's up and they may command some decent money).
My point is that Orton is a good player, but he's not a worldbeater. I would guess that eventually McDaniels is going to want a worldbeater. I could be wrong, but you can also take your 'anyone who knows football' spiel shove it. :D
Wasn't aiming most of my post at you, 87.
I know you're not anti-Kyle like his team's own FANS are. (wierd, huh?)
I just took exception to your line of thinking where they should grab another QB early. IMO, that's a loser team's mentality, and can only cause distrust on the team, aka pre-Kyle.
Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 12:55 AM
Wasn't aiming most of my post at you, 87.
I know you're not anti-Kyle like his team's own FANS are. (wierd, huh?)
I just took exception to your line of thinking where they should grab another QB early. IMO, that's a loser team's mentality, and can only cause distrust on the team, aka pre-Kyle.
As I said in the post earlier to Kyle (which I know you didn't read, because you don't read the posts).... I said I don't think we take a QB early and feel that he's our QB next season.... IF... we can sign him for something other than a BIG time, long-term contract. Which we MIGHT be able to do. Considering the other needs we have, I agree that QB isn't at the top of the list, THIS year. But probably next.
Overtime
12-11-2009, 12:57 AM
Orton's done decent, but honestly, let's not kid ourselves here. Orton is not the long-term solution for this team. Even if takes us deep in the playoffs, he still won't be the answer.
We need to sign him to a 1 year deal for next year, let Brandstater continue to develop, offload that worthless sack of fail Simms (maybe he can join daddy dearest in the broadcast booth) and send him packing, and then dump Orton after next year and give the reigns to Brandstater.
if Brandstater isn't the answer, then draft a QB, and run with it. But wasting money on a long term deal for Orton is probably the dumbest thing this team could do.
topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:00 AM
Even if takes us deep in the playoffs, he still won't be the answer.
So, in other words, winning is not the primary objective . . .
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I said I 'wouldn't oppose it'. I wasn't exactly clamoring for you to move up and take the best rated QB.
Look, Orton could very well play QB in Denver for 4 more years. I agree with you about the second half ten point obscure stat, I think Orton is an above average QB. But, it's a pass first league, McDaniels is an offensive guy who loved to air it out in NE, his system works, I wouldn't oppose him doing whatever he sees fit in regards to most things.
Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 01:01 AM
So, in other words, winning is not the primary objective . . .
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it is ever year no matter WHO you have behind center. That doesn't mean that the guy you have is someone you feel is the LONG term solution.
Overtime
12-11-2009, 01:02 AM
So, in other words, winning is not the primary objective . . .
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winning is always the objective, but everyone knows this 7-8 yd pass crap won't get it done. if you can't throw the ball down the field against the best teams in the league, you won't be going far in the playoffs.
we need a consistent and stable offense, not this offense that shows up one week and then doesn't show up the next.
topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:02 AM
it is ever year no matter WHO you have behind center. That doesn't mean that the guy you have is someone you feel is the LONG term solution.
To me, WINNING is the LONG term answer.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it . . .
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topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:03 AM
winning is always the objective, but everyone knows this 7-8 yd pass crap won't get it done. if you can't throw the ball down the field against the best teams in the league, you won't be going far in the playoffs.
we need a consistent and stable offense, not this offense that shows up one week and then doesn't show up the next.
Still saying Orton can't pass the ball down the field.
Have you thought of watching a few games?
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Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 01:06 AM
To me, WINNING is the LONG term answer.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it . . .
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He's won when the other team doesn't score... True. Doesn't mean I feel our team is always going to be able to do that, and would like a better player behind center.
But... seriously. I know how you feel on this, and you know how I feel when it comes to Ortons play. I'm just saying that there are serious concerns to take a look at when considering his contract. I dont' think its simply a "simple yes" because he's won when we don't allow any points in the 2nd half. Its a team game, and there ARE VERY big reasons as to why he's won up to this point. Its certainly not because he's putting the points on the board. When you have guys like SD, NE, Indy in your conference... you will HAVE to score points.
Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 01:09 AM
You guys watch. If/when the other team puts 10 points on the board in teh second half of the game... you'll say to yourself "well, we know we have a 82% chance of losing now."
topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:10 AM
He's won when the other team doesn't score... True. Doesn't mean I feel our team is always going to be able to do that, and would like a better player behind center.
But... seriously. I know how you feel on this, and you know how I feel when it comes to Ortons play. I'm just saying that there are serious concerns to take a look at when considering his contract. I dont' think its simply a "simple yes" because he's won when we don't allow any points in the 2nd half. Its a team game, and there ARE VERY big reasons as to why he's won up to this point. Its certainly not because he's putting the points on the board. When you have guys like SD, NE, Indy in your conference... you will HAVE to score points.
Of course, the Broncos have already beaten NE and split with SD . . .
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Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 01:12 AM
Of course, the Broncos have already beaten NE and split with SD . . .
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And? we won when we didn't allow points in the second half... perfect examples. But again, I'm thinking of the future and NOT just this season. Which seems to be a problem. Do you really think we'll continue to not allow the NE's and the SDs not to score in the second half like we did this year? This year is not the ONLY year I'm looking at when signing a long-term contract. I'm looking PAST this year, which seems to be something you aren't if you are bringing up this season's games as if that proves anything for later games.
topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:22 AM
And? we won when we didn't allow points in the second half... perfect examples. But again, I'm thinking of the future and NOT just this season. Which seems to be a problem. Do you really think we'll continue to not allow the NE's and the SDs not to score in the second half like we did this year? This year is not the ONLY year I'm looking at when signing a long-term contract. I'm looking PAST this year, which seems to be something you aren't if you are bringing up this season's games as if that proves anything for later games.
In the NE game, Orton engineered a 90-yard TD drive then a 98-yard TD drive.
In how many plays during those drives did the defense take part?
In the SD game, yes, the defense held the Chargers to 3 points in the second
half. But the offense scored 17 points of their own. It is amazing how such long
drives can lend themselves to a defense.
I don't know . . . when a QB finishes with 20 completions for 29 passes, for
229 yards and 2 TDs--which results in a 115.4 QB rating, such as he did
against the Chargers, after the NE game, when commentators said Orton
"out-Brady'd Brady," I think you need to give him some credit, in addition to
defense.
I feel the way I do about Orton from what I've seen of him over the years.
Same reason McDaniels feels the way he does . . .
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Ravage!!!
12-11-2009, 01:23 AM
:lol: Ok
Timmy!
12-11-2009, 01:39 AM
Orton sucks donkey balls.
Let's draft a gunslinger.
topscribe
12-11-2009, 01:41 AM
Orton sucks donkey balls.
Let's draft a gunslinger.
The Broncos had one.
Last year . . . :coffee:
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Timmy!
12-11-2009, 01:41 AM
The Broncos had one.
Last year . . . :coffee:
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/sarcasm
rcsodak
12-11-2009, 01:46 AM
How is that such a crock?
Because I pulled 1 stat on Big Ben, and made the same point!
Stats don't tell stories.
So playing a #1 defense, that doesn't allow more than 10 pts a game, but can score more than 10pts, is reason to say the losing qb sucks?
How many games has Bal won, in the last 10+yrs, where the only way they DID win, was by kicking FG's? You're going to tell me that the qb on the losing team SUCKED, because he couldn't lead his team to a win against them? Sorry, but I imagine there are a few HoF'er QB's out there that would take exception to your line of thinking.
In the last 11yrs (incl 2009) Bal is 22games OVER .500 (97-75), with a SB. And in that time frame, have had top 10 Defenses in all but 2 of those years, and positive scoring in all but 3 (scored more than their opp's).
They avg'd 17pts/gm.
They held their opponents to 17pts or less, 80 times out of 172 games (46.5%).
1. Your point that it's "unreasonable" for a team to win without scoring in bunches is wrong. What 'franchise qb's' did Bal have?
2. I imagine there are more than a few GREAT qb's out there that have losses under their belts because they played a top Defense.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
rcsodak
12-11-2009, 01:50 AM
And? we won when we didn't allow points in the second half... perfect examples. But again, I'm thinking of the future and NOT just this season. Which seems to be a problem. Do you really think we'll continue to not allow the NE's and the SDs not to score in the second half like we did this year? This year is not the ONLY year I'm looking at when signing a long-term contract. I'm looking PAST this year, which seems to be something you aren't if you are bringing up this season's games as if that proves anything for later games.
Evidently, you're NOT. Or else you wouldn't be locked into the idea that the defense, which is BRAND NEW to the team, will never get any better.
This IS, afterall, a team sport. :coffee:
bcbronc
12-11-2009, 04:47 AM
Of the 7 regular season games in which the other team scored 10 points, Rex won 6. He won one game in the playoffs and then lost the Super Bowl when a team scored 10 points in the second half.... so he was 7-2... with a team that was considered to have a GREAT defense.
9 games (out of 19 games) in ONE year, and Orton has just 17 in how 5 seasons of game (40+ games started because he didn't start all of them, obviously).
ever considered that what Orton and Rex do as qbs has some impact on this stat? Orton plays smart, doesn't turn the ball over, and moves the chains. this makes it easier for the defense to keep points off the board. Rex, on the other hand, does none of those and it shows with how many times teams scored 10+ in the second half.
give Orton a three year deal, with all the guaranteed money coming in the first two years. keeps him in the fold at least long enough for Brandstater or a draft pick (if QB in round one is BPA, take him--but don't reach, trade up, or take a later round QB) to develop.
If Orton plays lights out and we win a couple of division titles and get 2-3 playoff wins, Orton can be the long term answer. if not, he's a two year bridge that allows us to develop his replacement.
T.K.O.
12-11-2009, 12:39 PM
I agree with everything you said here.. except your last sentence. Thats not true at all.
Look at the Falcons and Ravens last season. They were absolutely better off with their new QB than they were with their old one. More recently, look at the Vikings this year. They absolutely are better off with the QB they have this year over the one they had last. The Titans were MUCH better off with a different QB last year, and again are better off with the old one THIS year.. both changing part way through the season and being better for it (Please know, that I'm NOT saying we should, by any means, change QBs now). The Lions this year are better than they were last year with a new QB. San Fran is better off this year with Smith than they were with Hill last season. The Raiders are better of now with.. well... whatever his name is... over Russell. If you read some posters from this very board, you'll see that most believe this team is better off with Orton this year than they were with Cutler. ALLLL examples of a team getting BETTER by changing QBs.
But I think you are right, because you agreed with me! :beer: hahah
If we can get Orton to play football for us for another season for a low salary.. great. But realistically, that won't happen. Also, I feel very confident that the NFLPA and the Owners WILL get something done before the season starts next year. They will, they always do, and you'll see that they get it done at the last second. Even if that means they lock themselves in a room and not leave until its beaten out.
I don't think Brandy is the answer (and I say this purely based on the LARGE established pattern in the NFL that 6th round choices aren't the answer to the QB needs of a team. Sure there are the exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason).
So, there lies the dilemma. If the NFLPA gets the deal done, and Orton doesn't simply want to play here another season for a one year deal..... what do we do?
the KEY word in that last sentence was "available" there are at this time no better options available (see chris simms) not saying we cant find a better qb in the offseason....but as i stated the odds of whoever that is (unless it someone who knows the system inside and out like the vikes found with favre) immediatly improving the team are extremely slim.
the qb's you mentioned are the exception ,not the rule.
that being said i think we are mostly in agreement on what the team needs.
i just think we are doing pretty well considering all the changes and should'nt be hasty,unless we suffer another complete meltdown like last year .
i would love to see us draft a stud qb but i also realize that we may be sitting pretty well for the next couple years once the team understands the whole scheme and gets to the point where they can execute it .
CoachChaz
12-11-2009, 12:52 PM
the KEY word in that last sentence was "available" there are at this time no better options available (see chris simms) not saying we cant find a better qb in the offseason....but as i stated the odds of whoever that is (unless it someone who knows the system inside and out like the vikes found with favre) immediatly improving the team are extremely slim.
the qb's you mentioned are the exception ,not the rule.
that being said i think we are mostly in agreement on what the team needs.
i just think we are doing pretty well considering all the changes and should'nt be hasty,unless we suffer another complete meltdown like last year .
i would love to see us draft a stud qb but i also realize that we may be sitting pretty well for the next couple years once the team understands the whole scheme and gets to the point where they can execute it .
Maybe we can convince Parcells to let us have Henne
T.K.O.
12-11-2009, 01:56 PM
Maybe we can convince Parcells to let us have Henne
or maybe belichick will give mcD brady for orton,so he can prove once and for all that it was HIS coaching that won those sb's :laugh:
Overtime
12-12-2009, 02:43 AM
Still saying Orton can't pass the ball down the field.
Have you thought of watching a few games?
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he can't do it consistently...that's where the problem is.
Orton sucks donkey balls.
Let's draft a gunslinger.
we already drafted one...Brandstater's got a helluva an arm for a 6th rounder out of Fresno State, and made spectacular throws against the Bears and Cardinals starting defenses in the pre-season. why waste a draft pick when we don't have to?
Lonestar
12-12-2009, 06:02 AM
he can't do it consistently...that's where the problem is.
?
And you know this for sure. Josh sends you a copy of the game plan and you have a receiver in your helmut. So you know for certain KO has not been consistant.
I think you mistake the lack of deep routes for him not being consistant.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
HORSEPOWER 56
12-12-2009, 09:30 AM
I think Dumervil and Marshall are bigger priorities to get re-signed than Orton is. Kyle is doing a good job, but Dumervil and Marshall are proving this year that they are playmakers and are vital to our future success.
It's kinda like Cleveland in that it would be more important to re-sign Josh Cribbs than Quinn or Anderson. Quinn hasn't been bad for them this year (condidering they traded or released most of his weapons (Winslow and Edwards) but Cribbs is a special player.
The biggest thing is that this upcoming draft looks like it will be loaded with QBs. With Claussen (Weis' boy) coming out as a highly touted QB, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us use our first rounder (which looks like it will be 10-15) on him if he falls. Brandstater was drafted for depth. I don't really think he's our future at QB. If McD thought he was, I think he'd have been the backup over Simms (especially when Simms was stinking it up). Orton may be re-signed especially if he gets us a playoff win but remember, he wasn't Josh's first choice, either. He was just the best available when the Cutler trade went down.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 11:36 AM
we already drafted one...Brandstater's got a helluva an arm for a 6th rounder out of Fresno State, and made spectacular throws against the Bears and Cardinals starting defenses in the pre-season. why waste a draft pick when we don't have to?
Simms looked better than Orton in pre-season, as well. Thats how much pre-season means. It means squat.
6th Round draft choices RARELY ever make it as QB. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are 'exceptions' for a reason. Brady and Warner are exceptions to the rule. I don't think Brandstater is the QB of the future, and I can't imagine putting our future on some 6th round flyer. Not at the most important position in professional sports.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 11:43 AM
the KEY word in that last sentence was "available" there are at this time no better options available (see chris simms) not saying we cant find a better qb in the offseason....but as i stated the odds of whoever that is (unless it someone who knows the system inside and out like the vikes found with favre) immediatly improving the team are extremely slim.
the qb's you mentioned are the exception ,not the rule.
that being said i think we are mostly in agreement on what the team needs.
i just think we are doing pretty well considering all the changes and should'nt be hasty,unless we suffer another complete meltdown like last year .
i would love to see us draft a stud qb but i also realize that we may be sitting pretty well for the next couple years once the team understands the whole scheme and gets to the point where they can execute it .
I'm not sure the teams I listed are an exception. I listed quite a few, and that was just the last couple years (I know I could even find more this season if I REALLY wanted to). I don't think finding a QB that can run the short route system, is all that hard to find.
But to me, it all comes down to the money and to the length of the contract. I obviously don't want to make a LONG term commitment to Orton. I don't know if McDaniel's does or not. But Orton may want that long term commitment, and he may see THIS as his opportunity to get it ( either from us or from another team that offers). If we can sign Orton to a short contract for reasonable money, so that he can hold the spot while we find another.. great.
topscribe
12-12-2009, 12:08 PM
Simms looked better than Orton in pre-season, as well. Thats how much pre-season means. It means squat.
6th Round draft choices RARELY ever make it as QB. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are 'exceptions' for a reason. Brady and Warner are exceptions to the rule. I don't think Brandstater is the QB of the future, and I can't imagine putting our future on some 6th round flyer. Not at the most important position in professional sports.
Simms looked better in one game, playing at garbage time against scrubs.
Every report I got back from camp was that Orton was more accurate, long and
short. That is likely why McDaniels named him the starter so early as he did . . .
(Not arguing with you here. Just adding to what you said.)
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HORSEPOWER 56
12-12-2009, 12:22 PM
I think I know what Rav is getting at. The way I look at it, Orton isn't a bad QB, but is he the guy to make use of all our offensive weapons? McD wants "Patriots West", an offense that can spread out the defense, dink and dunk and then go for the big play. That type of offense relies on an accurate passer who can take control of a game and manipulate the defense, not just "take what the defense gives you".
His numbers this season, especially of late, haven't exactly been spectacular. He's throwing more picks and losing more fumbles now than he did early on but his production isn't really going up, either. Since our 6 game winning streak ended, he's turned the ball over much more frequently but still hasn't been able to engage our playmakers like Royal and Scheffler into the offense. Marshall has been our only receiving threat that's been successful and even he is having a down year by previous standards.
If we hitch our wagon to his horse, is he "the guy" we want running this offense for the next 4-7 years? His agent will use the team's success to raise his value and his win/loss record will give him a lot of "street cred" that may or may not be completely accurate.
Once again, we're winning most of the time so all's well, but when we hit our slump, it wasn't Orton who dragged our team out of the fire, it was the running game and the defense. orton is just not worth big-time starting money in the NFL yet, IMO. He's nice to have, but I'd still probably take 60% of the starting QBs in the league over him.
We'll see soon how it all turns out. The playoffs are a different world. Just having a QB who protects the football probably isn't enough. You need a guy who can make plays and comebacks late in a game. Our defense is solid, but not '85 Bears or '00 Ravens good enough to just dominate in the playoffs. Every team you face is a good one and you can't take weeks off.
Timmy!
12-12-2009, 01:38 PM
we already drafted one...Brandstater's got a helluva an arm for a 6th rounder out of Fresno State, and made spectacular throws against the Bears and Cardinals starting defenses in the pre-season. why waste a draft pick when we don't have to?
:doh:
I should change my sig to: /sarcasm
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 04:22 PM
ever considered that what Orton and Rex do as qbs has some impact on this stat? Orton plays smart, doesn't turn the ball over, and moves the chains. this makes it easier for the defense to keep points off the board. Rex, on the other hand, does none of those and it shows with how many times teams scored 10+ in the second half.
give Orton a three year deal, with all the guaranteed money coming in the first two years. keeps him in the fold at least long enough for Brandstater or a draft pick (if QB in round one is BPA, take him--but don't reach, trade up, or take a later round QB) to develop.
If Orton plays lights out and we win a couple of division titles and get 2-3 playoff wins, Orton can be the long term answer. if not, he's a two year bridge that allows us to develop his replacement.
Mmmm kay. But for all that "chain moving" he's not putting up the points.
As extreme examples.... Peyton has a 57-45 record (career), anytime the other team puts up 10 points in the second half. I guess you are going to say that Peyton's style of play allows the other team to score points? In '06, the year they won the Super Bowl and the year that their defense was ranked #2 in points ALLOWED, the Colts allowed 10 points in 10 games (just one of those were the playoffs). Now I know Peyton is one of the best to EVER play the game, and I'm not comparing Orton's skills TO Mannings. But I wanted to show you that despite Peyton being one of the best passers of all time, he STILL had 10 games where 10 points put against him in the second half. Is that because he's reckless with the ball?? (he won 7 of the ten, btw).
Orton in 2008, he had 7 games vs ten points in the second half. The ONLY years Peyton didn't face 7 games vs 10 points in the second half was '02 and this season ('09). So I find your suggestion to not be accurate... unless you are saying that Manning's play doesn't help out his defense?
Peyton was 1-n-9 his rookie year. If we count his rookie year he's won 55.8% of those games. If we don't (and I'm not saying we shouldn't)...he's won 60.8%.
Other examples.. just for kicks. Eli Manning is 17-26 (39.5%) and Jason Campbell is 6-17 (26%) **I could get more, but didn't really want to bore more than I already have**. Orton is 3-12 (20%) (if we don't count his rookie season, he's 2-10 (20%)) **(I corrected myself from earlier posts, I unintentionally counted the two games THIS season where he was taken out early or came in late)
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 04:29 PM
So playing a #1 defense, that doesn't allow more than 10 pts a game, but can score more than 10pts, is reason to say the losing qb sucks?
How many games has Bal won, in the last 10+yrs, where the only way they DID win, was by kicking FG's? You're going to tell me that the qb on the losing team SUCKED, because he couldn't lead his team to a win against them? Sorry, but I imagine there are a few HoF'er QB's out there that would take exception to your line of thinking.
No.. because you are taking one team, one game against ONE tough defense. If Orton played every week against a defense like that (or an offense for that matter) then you would have a point. But he didn't play against the Raven's type defense each and every week. I'm saying that if a guy can't win more than 20% of the time... he's not worth a big time, or long term contract. I'm talking about the contract here. I'm not saying he sucks. I'm saying I don't think he's worth a big or long-term contract.
In the last 11yrs (incl 2009) Bal is 22games OVER .500 (97-75), with a SB. And in that time frame, have had top 10 Defenses in all but 2 of those years, and positive scoring in all but 3 (scored more than their opp's).
They avg'd 17pts/gm.
They held their opponents to 17pts or less, 80 times out of 172 games (46.5%).
1. Your point that it's "unreasonable" for a team to win without scoring in bunches is wrong. What 'franchise qb's' did Bal have?
2. I imagine there are more than a few GREAT qb's out there that have losses under their belts because they played a top Defense.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
rc.. again.. your stats don't have anything to do with the point, and have gone off into nowhere. I have NO idea what you are trying to say.
But I'm pretty sure that all QBs have losses against great defenses, and even have losses against weak defenses. Thats not the point. Because NO QB plays great defenseas EVERY week... nor do they play weak defenses every week. But only winning 20% of the time when a team scores just a TD and FG against you?
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 04:32 PM
Evidently, you're NOT. Or else you wouldn't be locked into the idea that the defense, which is BRAND NEW to the team, will never get any better.
This IS, afterall, a team sport. :coffee:
rc.. again. YOu aren't being realistic. Our defense held teams with ZERO points (in second half) in five of our first 6 games. That was ONE game away from and NFL record. Do you honestly believe that we will continue to IMPROVE upon those kind of numbers simply because we will have another year in a defensive scheme??? If you do, you aren't being real.
So, yes. I'm confident that the defense may get better, but most probably will NEVER have that kind of shut-out success again. :coffee:
Lonestar
12-12-2009, 05:21 PM
Well it is nice to have Orton as a QB as it give ravage another Jake to hate.
It matters not one bit what we think. He is here to stay unless he FUBARs it in the next few games. If he turns into a turn over machine he is offered a smaller contract.
Josh wants to win NOW not 2-3 years from now, that means he is not going retrain another QB especially a rookie for 2-3 years.
As for the CBA the owners have the union right where they want them. They will get concessions on the percentage they have to give players.
Right now the FA players are screwed and most will become RFAs and that means a lot lower payday for them at least 1-2 years.
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.
Requiem / The Dagda
12-12-2009, 05:41 PM
Josh wants to win all the time. A rookie QB could have just as much success as Orton. It is possible.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 06:41 PM
I don't HATE Orton, and I didn't "Hate" Jake. I simply do not want te Broncos to "accept" mediocracy, at the most important position in football, simply because the guy is already on the roster.
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
12-12-2009, 06:56 PM
I don't HATE Orton, and I didn't "Hate" Jake. I simply do not want te Broncos to "accept" mediocracy, at the most important position in football, simply because the guy is already on the roster.
Oh yeah, since there are so many elite quarterbacks sitting around unrestricted free agency.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 06:59 PM
Oh yeah, since there are so many elite quarterbacks sitting around unrestricted free agency.
*sighs*
that has nothing to do with either drafting, OR... accepting the idea of signing Orton to a LONG TERM CONTRACT.. .. hence the topic of this thread.
bcbronc
12-12-2009, 08:44 PM
6th Round draft choices RARELY ever make it as QB. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are 'exceptions' for a reason. Brady and Warner are exceptions to the rule. I don't think Brandstater is the QB of the future, and I can't imagine putting our future on some 6th round flyer. Not at the most important position in professional sports.
NHL goalie is the most important position in professional sports. :welcome:
Orton in 2008, he had 7 games vs ten points in the second half. The ONLY years Peyton didn't face 7 games vs 10 points in the second half was '02 and this season ('09). So I find your suggestion to not be accurate... unless you are saying that Manning's play doesn't help out his defense?
ummmm....ya that is what I am saying. You've seen Manning play, right? you don't throw for 49 TDs (or whatever it was) by dinking and dunking, moving the chains, and controlling the clock. you throw for the yards/TDs Manning does every year by eating up big chunks of yardage.
The Colts offense under Manning has usually been a quick strike offense that can score in a hurry...and frequently does. this obviously gives the other team's offense more possessions, which results in more 2nd halves with 10+ points, especially considering until relatively recently Indy's defense was the weak link with the franchise.
some QBs win games by simply being able to score more points (ie Manning). Other QBs win games by playing smart, efficient football, controlling TOP, and not making mistakes that puts their defense's backs against the wall (ie Orton). Obviously Manning is a (slightly ;) ) better QB than Orton, but a win's a win's a win.
so if you want to use stat that Orton doesn't win much when the other team scores more than 10 points in the second half, you have to give him some credit for the fact teams don't score 10 points very often against his team. Can't cherry pick which side of the coin you give credence to.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 08:47 PM
No.. QB is the most important position in professional sports.
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 08:50 PM
a wins a win... but one is WINNING games, while the other is expecting your defense to win for you. How many defenses have been strong enough to take a team to the Super Bowl?
Either way. I know the stat I'm using in this example isn't the end-all of stats. I had my fun using it.... but this is just a point that I don't believe Orton to be the guy that will LEAD your team to victory nor will he be able to score WITh a team that can score on your defense.
Our defense wont' be able to shut teams out forever. Thats just reality. But yes. Orton can win when the defense doesn't let the other team score.
bcbronc
12-12-2009, 08:55 PM
NHL goalie
Ravage!!!
12-12-2009, 08:56 PM
so if you want to use stat that Orton doesn't win much when the other team scores more than 10 points in the second half, you have to give him some credit for the fact teams don't score 10 points very often against his team. Can't cherry pick which side of the coin you give credence to.
I see what you are TRYING to say here. But if Orton isn't scoring, then the team is punting. So if your team punts 6 times in a game, how is that helping your defense 'keep' the other team from scoring? Its giving them more opportunities just the same.
Orton has done a great job with turnovers. But I think he's benefitted a GREAT great deal from playing on some defenses that have helped him out TREMENDOUSLY. Thus why no stat, alone, tells the story (and yes, that includes the 10 pt stat I have been using).
Have a great night everyone
T.K.O.
12-12-2009, 09:21 PM
i would still be thrilled if we beat the colts 6-3 !:laugh::salute:
Timmy!
12-12-2009, 11:00 PM
No.. QB is the most important position in professional sports.
Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer agree. :heh:
Lonestar
12-13-2009, 03:07 AM
I don't HATE Orton, and I didn't "Hate" Jake. I simply do not want te Broncos to "accept" mediocracy, at the most important position in football, simply because the guy is already on the roster.
was drinking a soda when I read this and now I had to swap out a new keyboard..
you can fool some people some of the time, but no one is buying this.. especially anyone that knew you from Mania..:salute:
topscribe
12-13-2009, 03:51 AM
was drinking a soda when I read this and now I had to swap out a new keyboard..
you can fool some people some of the time, but no one is buying this.. especially anyone that knew you from Mania..:salute:
Take the keyboard outside and rinse it off good with some distilled water. Then
let it dry thoroughly. It will be as good as new.
No use letting a good joke ruin a perfectly good keyboard . . . :D
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Lonestar
12-13-2009, 04:10 AM
I started a thread with this article but think it is pertinet in this thread also
By Lindsay H. Jones
The Denver Post
Posted: 12/13/2009 01:00:00 AM MST
Here in the Rocky Mountains, we like to think we know a thing or two about The Franchise Quarterback.
We know when we've got one, and we'll spend the better part of a decade looking for another. And just when we think we've found one, he's gone, and we all wonder what went wrong.
From John Elway to Brian Griese to Jake Plummer to Jay Cutler to Kyle Orton, the topic of the franchise quarterback is a touchy one for Broncos fans.
Meanwhile, across the line today in Indianapolis, Denver faces Peyton Manning, the very definition of a Franchise Quarterback.
"Peyton Manning is the poster boy for franchise quarterbacks," Broncos quarterback Chris Simms said. "It's a great thing if you get drafted there and it works."
Manning was the Colts' No. 1 overall draft pick in 1998 and he has played in every game for the Colts since. He's thrown for more than 49,000 yards, been named to nine Pro Bowls, won three NFL MVP awards and was the Super Bowl MVP.
All the accolades and superlatives aside, Manning and the Colts illustrate the ideal way to build a franchise around a star quarterback, something most organizations try, and few do.
The Colts finished the 1997 season 3-13, and new general manager Bill Polian and coach Jim Mora Sr. took Manning with the No. 1 overall pick. By 1999, the Colts were 13-3 and back in the playoffs, and they've been the model of consistency ever since.
It was what former Broncos coach Mike Shanahan at one point envisioned doing around Cutler.
But here's a major difference as to why Polian's strategy has worked so well: Not only has Manning panned out, so have many of the players Indianapolis drafted to play around him: first-rounders such as running back Edgerrin James (1999), receiver Reggie Wayne (2001), defensive end Dwight Freeney (2002), tight end Dallas Clark (2003), running back Joseph Addai (2006) and receiver Anthony Gonzalez (2007), as well as second-round safety Bob Sanders
During that same span, only linebackers Al Wilson (1999) and D.J. Williams (2004) have been long-term bona fide star players for the Broncos. The Broncos used one first-round draft pick on a quarterback this decade, Cutler, and first-year coach Josh McDaniels — though never in exact terms — clearly didn't deem him to be a franchise quarterback.
Perhaps that is because McDaniels isn't as fully sold on the notion of a "Franchise Quarterback" as other coaches.
"I don't know what the definition of that is, because there are a lot of quarterbacks who have had great success in this league that, I don't how you define them as franchise quarterbacks," McDaniels said. "What's a guy who is not a franchise quarterback? I don't know. I just want our guy to win."
The question remains, though, of how far a team can go without an elite quarterback. Of the past 10 Super Bowl champions, eight were quarterbacked by players who fit the "franchise" mold: Pittsburgh's Ben Roethlisberger (twice), New England's Tom Brady (three times), Manning for the Colts and his brother Eli for the Giants, and Kurt Warner for the Rams.
"If you have one, you are probably going to be making the playoffs," said NFL Network analyst Steve Mariucci, a former Lions and 49ers coach. "When you look at the teams that are going to be there, by and large, they've got guys that are going to the Pro Bowl or have been there before."
For the record, Mariucci includes Orton in a group of what he calls "very good" quarterbacks, a group that also includes guys such as Cutler in Chicago, Dallas' Tony Romo, Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers and San Diego's Philip Rivers.
But can Orton be a franchise quarterback in Denver? This is the final year of his contract, and he will be a restricted free agent after the season. How the Broncos choose to handle him after that will be telling. The Broncos will be able to match any other offer Orton receives this offseason, should he make it to the open market next spring without having signed a new contract.
"That's all on the franchise. That's all on the organization," Orton said. "That's probably the only way you can decide that, is if the organization thinks you're one, then you're one."
Lindsay H. Jones: 303-954-1262 or ljones@denverpost.com
Manning seems to have the Broncos' number
No player has caused more heartache for the Broncos this decade than Colts quarterback Peyton Manning. Indianapolis is 6-2 against Denver in the Manning era, and one of those losses came in what was, for the Colts, a throwaway game at the end of the 2004 regular season when Manning saw little action. Manning's numbers against the Broncos are staggering: 1,945 yards passing with 17 touchdowns and only three interceptions. Here's a game-by-game breakdown of the damage Manning has wrought against the Broncos:
2001: A 29-10 final-week Colts' victory, with Manning throwing for a pedestrian 191 yards, two touchdowns, one interception.
2002: The Colts won in overtime 23-20, but Manning did not throw a touchdown pass and had a passer rating of 65.4, his lowest ever against Denver.
2003: In Week 15, the Broncos rolled 31-17, and Manning threw for only 146 yards, with no touchdowns.
2003: Two weeks later, in the first round of the playoffs, Manning was spectacular, throwing for 377 yards in a 41-10 victory. He finished with a perfect passer rating, 158.3.
2004: Manning started but was pulled after throwing two passes in a 33-14 loss that had no bearing on Indy's postseason seeding.
2004: Two weeks later, Manning again torched the Broncos in a playoff rout. He completed 27-of-33 passes for a mind-boggling 458 yards and four touchdowns.
2006: Manning was nearly perfect in a 34-31 victory, throwing for 345 yards and three touchdowns with no interceptions, snapping Denver's five-game home winning streak.
2007: Manning threw for only 193 yards in a 38-20 early-season victory, along with three touchdown passes.
Lindsay H. Jones, The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13986787
ursamajor
12-13-2009, 05:03 AM
So unless you put great guys around him, he's average....but he's got great stats. That doesn't equal a franchise player.
Even Brett Favre needs/needed a team around him, and good coaching. He had none of the aforementioned in 2005. Actually it was a mirrored situation to what Cutler is in now-except Favre had a slightly better O-Line, and running game. He also had Driver.
Brett Favre 2005 (http://www.nfl.com/players/brettfavre/gamelogs?id=FAV540222&season=2005)
Dzone
12-13-2009, 06:51 AM
Lets get Tebow!
Take the keyboard outside and rinse it off good with some distilled water. Then
let it dry thoroughly. It will be as good as new.
No use letting a good joke ruin a perfectly good keyboard . . . :D
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Good morning L!
If you happen to run across an internet link for the Broncos game later, could you please PM it to me?.
I'm stuck with the Chargers as my late game today:rolleyes:
J
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