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View Full Version : Josh McDaniels had a vision that better fit Cassel, Orton



Denver Native (Carol)
12-04-2009, 09:49 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13922775

Hindsight has brought greater understanding of the Broncos' flirtation with Matt Cassel.

What nobody knew then, but what everybody can guess at now, is that experience alone wasn't going to cure Jay Cutler of his flaws as an NFL quarterback.

Cutler's talent is off the charts. So are his NFL-high 20 interceptions. Josh McDaniels, the Broncos' new head coach, must have seen then what he won't talk about now.

McDaniels' offensive system demands a disciplined quarterback. A great arm helps, sure, but not at the expense of taking unnecessary risks.

A trade that would essentially swap Cassel for Cutler as the Broncos' quarterback? McDaniels decided it was worth investigating, if nothing more, for a few days back in late February.

Due diligence would soon lead to the saga that became McJaygate.

"It was kind of crazy because it was more speculation than it was anything else," Cassel said. "I know my name was thrown around a lot. When I was going through it, I really didn't have any contact with Denver."

The trade for Cassel never materialized with the Broncos. In fact, it wasn't until after New England traded Cassel to the Kansas City Chiefs that the possibility of a Broncos deal became known.

"He wasn't the reason why a lot of this stuff got to a point where people were upset with one another," said McDaniels, who coached Cassel in New England last season.

He would get no closer to what will forever be a touchy, and wildly discussed, subject. The Broncos are in the moment. With a 7-4 record, McDaniels has a great chance to lead Denver to its first playoff berth since 2005. Cassel and the Chiefs will host McDaniels and the Broncos on Sunday at Arrowhead Stadium.

Back then, McDaniels said he didn't initiate the trade proposal for Cassel, and internal discussions never became serious enough to run past owner Pat Bowlen.

Cassel's comments during a conference call this week corroborated McDaniels' version, but there was considerable skepticism elsewhere, most notably from Cutler. The Broncos' 25-year-old, Pro Bowl quarterback never came around to his new coach. Two face-to-face, if never one-on- one, meetings failed to medicate Cutler's mistrust. He demanded, and eventually received, a trade.

"There were some missteps in the offseason," said Howie Long, the former Raiders' great and longtime NFL analyst for Fox. "If you're going to pull the trigger on your quarterback, pull the trigger."

Long added he understood McDaniels' reasoning for considering Cassel. As the Broncos' new coach, he was bringing with him the New England offense he had coordinated the previous four years. And Cassel was the quarterback McDaniels guided to an 11-5 record the previous season.

"But when you throw that out there and it gets out there publicly?" Long said. "I've said this before, when you look at presidents of the United States from the beginning of their term to the end of their term, it looks like they age about 40 years. Josh looked like he was 19 when he took the job. By the end of the summer, he looked 28."

Cutler was sent to the Bears, where he is posting the eighth consecutive nonwinning season since his senior year in high school. In return, the Broncos essentially received two first-round picks, plus quarterback Kyle Orton, who is posting his seventh consecutive winning record, going back to high school.

Again, Cutler's peeve with McDaniels, and subsequent trade to the Bears, all happened well after Cassel was safely ensconced with the Chiefs.

"It was crazy, because I was watching ESPN like you were, going, 'How in the heck did my name get thrown in here!' " Cassel said. "I think it was more about the connection between myself and Josh, and a lot of people had speculation about it."

Speculation, perhaps, but not uneducated conjecture. McDaniels and Cassel will forever be indebted to each other. Had it not been for McDaniels' coaching, Cassel may never have made the gargantuan leap from a quarterback who had never started a game at that position in college to one who received a $63 million contract.

How does one go from not starting since high school to 11-5 in his first NFL test? Coaching, that's how.

"He's had a major influence on my career," Cassel said of McDaniels. "I give a lot of credit to (him for) me being in this position."

And had Cassel not gone from quarterback who hadn't started since high school to leading the Patriots to 11 victories, McDaniels may never have become such a hot head coaching candidate last offseason. Before then, the Pats' offensive success was largely credited to Tom Brady.

When interviewed for the NFL's preseason information guide, McDaniels answered, "Matt Cassel," to the question: Most inspirational player you've ever coached?

"He got what he deserved in terms of having an opportunity to go to another franchise and be the starting quarterback," McDaniels said. "And it's a well-deserved opportunity."

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

All's well with Orton

During their eventful offseason, the Broncos could have had any one of four quarterbacks — Jay Cutler or using Cutler as trade bait to acquire Matt Cassel, Jason Campbell or Kyle Orton. Denver ultimately chose Orton, who is having the best season of the four.

Quarterback Team Yards TDs Int. Rtg. W-L
Kyle Orton Bronco 2,447 12 6 87.9 7-3
Jason Campbell Redskins 2,357 12 11 84.6 3-8
Matt Cassel Chiefs 1,898 13 7 77.6 3-7
Jay Cutler Bears 2,671 16 20 74.4 4-7

Lonestar
12-04-2009, 10:37 AM
Good article.


I have said many times I believe that after talking to existing coaches, jay and watching a lot of film, Josh came to that conclusion that jay simply could not or would not be able to change his gunslinger attitude. Of being reckless with the ball.

I also believe that having a QB that throughly knew the scheme would have made the conversion a lot faster. As the QB would already know it and be able to correct the WR, TE, RB, if they should be out of position during a play opposed to the QB perhap second guessing himself if a pass went to the wrong spot.

Things need to be automatic with out any extra delay for "thinking" during a play. You can get away with that type of thing in college but in the NFL where for the most part every player on the team is better than 95% of the players in college, you can't get away with a split second of doubt or delay. The pros will get you e ery time where in college it is less likely to hurt you with the lesser talent/experience level.

I think jay could have learned a lot from Josh just think he thought he did not need to. Afterall he was already a probowl QB.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

The Glue Factory
12-04-2009, 12:48 PM
Orton is having the best season of the four but that begs the question of where the Broncos would be if Cassell had landed in Denver. I'm willing to bet we'd still be leading the AFC West.

shank
12-04-2009, 01:10 PM
Orton is having the best season of the four but that begs the question of where the Broncos would be if Cassell had landed in Denver. I'm willing to bet we'd still be leading the AFC West.

i'm an orton fan, and didn't want cassell at the time, but i can't really argue with you on this...

SoCalImport
12-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Orton is having the best season of the four but that begs the question of where the Broncos would be if Cassell had landed in Denver. I'm willing to bet we'd still be leading the AFC West.

It's quite likely, but we definately wouldn't have Moreno, Ayers And Smith.
one out of three, maybe, but not all three. Plus with the way the Bears are playing, We get the better pick in 2010 as a bonus.


It may go down as a Hershal Walker type trade for us. I won't make that comparison yet though.

Brand
12-04-2009, 01:17 PM
So, Clay. Funky Thanksgiving for you? Did you bake it or boil it?

claymore
12-04-2009, 01:19 PM
So, Clay. Funky Thanksgiving for you? Did you bake it or boil it?

Baked it, 3 hours in a reynolds bag. :sojuicy:

broncofaninfla
12-04-2009, 01:27 PM
We'll never know how Jay would have faired in the offense. I would have liked to have seen it but am somewhat satisfied with Orton for the most part.

claymore
12-04-2009, 01:31 PM
We'll never know how Jay would have faired in the offense. I would have liked to have seen it but am somewhat satisfied with Orton for the most part.
Hopefully Orton improves a bit more. If not, I want a someone else. I want a top 5 QB not a top 20 QB.

slim
12-04-2009, 01:33 PM
War neckbeard!

shank
12-04-2009, 01:35 PM
Hopefully Orton improves a bit more. If not, I want a someone else. I want a top 5 QB not a top 20 QB.

32 teams want a top 5 quarterback clay. >16% of them get their wish.

personally, i want a top 5 TEAM. i don't give a shit who's throwing the ball, so long as they are winning games.

claymore
12-04-2009, 01:36 PM
32 teams want a top 5 quarterback clay. >16% of them get their wish.

personally, i want a top 5 TEAM. i don't give a shit who's throwing the ball, so long as they are winning games.

Well then! I want a number one team!

shank
12-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Well then! I want a number one team!

quoted for troof

Lonestar
12-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Hey I will gladly take a top ten in all of the important stats on D, O, QB, and ST.. I'd bet that gets us in the playoffs consistently..

Denver Native (Carol)
12-04-2009, 02:26 PM
Orton is having the best season of the four but that begs the question of where the Broncos would be if Cassell had landed in Denver. I'm willing to bet we'd still be leading the AFC West.

With the meltdown the defense had during the 4 game losing stretch, not sure if Cassell would have made any difference.

Day1BroncoFan
12-04-2009, 02:28 PM
I want a super bowl winning team. :D

topscribe
12-04-2009, 02:31 PM
During their eventful offseason, the Broncos could have had any one of four quarterbacks — Jay Cutler or using Cutler as trade bait to acquire Matt Cassel, Jason Campbell or Kyle Orton. Denver ultimately chose Orton, who is having the best season of the four.

Worth repeating . . .

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Northman
12-04-2009, 02:39 PM
No surprise about Cassell verifying what i believed to be the brunt of the problem with McJaygate. We can finally put that conspiracy shit to rest already.

Denver Native (Carol)
12-04-2009, 03:25 PM
Found the following article, which I find interesting

http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2009/02/were-bucs-invol.html

Were Bucs involved in Cassel, Cutler talks?


You may have heard by now that New England QB Matt Cassel is on his way to Kansas City after a trade executed between the clubs this morning.

But Adam Schefter of NFL.com reports there was much, much more going on over the course of the day. It's a convoluted scenario for which there is no easy explanation, but the basics -- according to NFL.com sources -- are as follows:

The Bucs approached the Broncos about a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to Denver and brought Broncos QB Jay Cutler to Tampa Bay. The Broncos, after some deliberation, declined. The report says the Lions also approached the Broncos with a similar proposal, but it, too, was declined. In the meantime, while the Bucs and Lions tried to negotiate with the third team in their respective three-team deals, the Patriots struck their deal with Kansas City, which recently hired former Patriots personnel man Scott Pioli. That move made all the prior conversations moot.

If either of the two proposed deals had gone down, it would have presented one of the wildest trade scenarios in recent memory. As it were, it didn't happen and the Bucs find themselves still searching for that player to compete with Luke McCown.

If you were reading the previous post in this blog Friday evening, we told you there was rampant speculation about the Bucs and Cassel. Turns out, that -- and a whole lot more -- might have been absolutely true.

The Glue Factory
12-04-2009, 03:38 PM
Worth repeating . . .

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Any one of the other three could have the best stats if the only change is switching the QB. I would argue that Cassell would do the best in Denver out of the four and Orton would do about the same or worse in KC than Cassell is. Just lining up the stats doesn't prove that Orton was the strongest QB for Denver out of the list.

claymore
12-04-2009, 03:40 PM
Id rather have Orton and 2 #1's than Cassell and 1 #1 or whatever else.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-04-2009, 03:41 PM
I think McDaniels knew exactly what he was doing. He sent Cutler to a team with a quarterback (Orton) who had played in the spread prior (Purdue) and could understand and implement his system. Both McDaniels and Orton are cerebral, and that was a match in heaven for them. Furthermore, I am fairly confident McDaniels was smart enough to realize that the Bears had a porous offensive line and a herd of no-names and rookies at wide receiver. That, and the defense of the Bears hasn't been as good as it used to be.

Josh knew that sending Cutler to a place with very little help offensively and defensively would help us get a quality picks in return with a solid player in Orton. I think we got the best of all the worlds from this trade.

shank
12-04-2009, 03:42 PM
Any one of the other three could have the best stats if the only change is switching the QB. I would argue that Cassell would do the best in Denver out of the four and Orton would do about the same or worse in KC than Cassell is. Just lining up the stats doesn't prove that Orton was the strongest QB for Denver out of the list.

i kind of agree. campbell gets thrown out because he's the only one who had continuity from last year. the other 3 learned new systems. cassell would have had a similar advantage had he followed McD to denver. Orton is IMO the least physically talented of any of the 4 qbs, but has the best season going for him.

all that being said, it was still worth repeating, if only for the orton haters, if there still are any left.

topscribe
12-04-2009, 03:45 PM
Any one of the other three could have the best stats if the only change is switching the QB. I would argue that Cassell would do the best in Denver out of the four and Orton would do about the same or worse in KC than Cassell is. Just lining up the stats doesn't prove that Orton was the strongest QB for Denver out of the list.

Speculation. It is what it is.

Orton is having the best season. This is reality. :coffee:

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MileHighCrew
12-04-2009, 03:47 PM
I am not going to say I am not happy with the results from this season, because it has been awesome (except for a month there but that aside it has been awesome) but you can't judge this trade in the first season after the first season or next year. This is going to take time and unless the Broncos or the Bears win the Super Bowl in the next two years we have to see how it plays out to pick a winner. I am sure the Redskins fans thought they won the Portis / Bailey trade but clearly now the Broncos won that trade.

DenBronx
12-04-2009, 05:38 PM
discipline is greater than a big arm.

Tned
12-04-2009, 11:57 PM
Worth repeating . . .

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It might also be repeating that McDaniels has stated that they were too late to the game to trade for Cassel. Based on his own statements, he didn't have a pick of the four.


McDaniels is just as adamant that he never even considered trading Cutler until Detroit and Tampa Bay approached him at the NFL combine in late February and asked about acquiring the quarterback. Then on Feb. 26, McDaniels says, one of the teams proposed a three-way trade in which the Broncos would give up Cutler for high draft choices they would then trade for Cassel. The next day McDaniels began exploring a trade for Cassel, but "we were late to the dance," he said. McDaniels admitted that the team got involved in trade discussions for Cassel, who instead was dealt to the Kansas City Chiefs. However, he said any perception Cutler felt that the team could still trade him was misleading. "That's what we have communicated ever since the deal with Cassel didn't happen," McDaniels said. "Other teams have called but we're not interested in getting draft picks for Jay."

dogfish
12-05-2009, 12:15 AM
Well then! I want a number one team!

i want my own team. . . how much you think bowlen would take for the broncos in this economy?


:drinking:

MOtorboat
12-05-2009, 12:58 AM
It might also be repeating that McDaniels has stated that they were too late to the game to trade for Cassel. Based on his own statements, he didn't have a pick of the four.

Yes, so he had the chose of Orton, Campbell or Cutler.

I think he made the right choice.

Tned
12-05-2009, 01:29 AM
Yes, so he had the chose of Orton, Campbell or Cutler.

I think he made the right choice.

Right now, the choice looks pretty good.

As to the choice of Orton, Campbell and Cutler, according to Peter King who seems to get a lot of face time with McDaniels, he says that McDaniels evaluated and had more than just those three to choose from:


The key to the trade was Kyle Orton. Laugh if you want, but it's the absolute truth. McDaniels looked hard at tape of the available quarterbacks from teams that made serious offers, players like Orton, Washington's Jason Campbell and Tampa Bay's Luke McCown. Every one of those teams was in the ballpark with an offer of at least two first-round draft picks and a quarterback.

But as the deal went down, McDaniels, who watched every offensive snap of more than 10 Bears games with Orton playing, got more and more impressed with Orton's arm, his decision-making and his ability to extend plays when the pocket broke down. You can think and I can think it's crazy he didn't like Campbell -- who got Washington off to a 6-2 start last year -- more than he liked Orton, but it's the unvarnished truth. McDaniels thinks he can win with Orton.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/04/05/trade/index.html

MOtorboat
12-05-2009, 01:35 AM
Right now, the choice looks pretty good.

As to the chose of Orton, Campbell and Cutler, according to Peter King who seems to get a lot of face time with McDaniels, he says that McDaniels evaluated and had more than just those three to choose from:

Yet, we were, according to your previous post, "late to the party," for the Tampa-New England deal...

:noidea:

I've said it before, and I believe it...if you honestly believe that New England turned down a first round pick, and possibly two, so that Cassel could go to Denver and Cutler could go to Tampa, you're delusional.

Ravage!!!
12-05-2009, 02:18 AM
Yet, we were, according to your previous post, "late to the party," for the Tampa-New England deal...

:noidea:

I've said it before, and I believe it...if you honestly believe that New England turned down a first round pick, and possibly two, so that Cassel could go to Denver and Cutler could go to Tampa, you're delusional.

LATE means that another deal was already agreed upone.. HENCE.. that deal with NE couldnt' be done

topscribe
12-05-2009, 02:21 AM
Right now, the choice looks pretty good.

As to the chose of Orton, Campbell and Cutler, according to Peter King who seems to get a lot of face time with McDaniels, he says that McDaniels evaluated and had more than just those three to choose from:

Fantastic article.

How did I ever miss it? :confused:

King was doing a terrific job until he started implying that Denver whiffed the
trade. Yet how could one really know at that stage? That's the way it looked, to
be sure. Still, King originally had the Broncos at 4-12 this season. :laugh:

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Tned
12-05-2009, 11:19 AM
Yet, we were, according to your previous post, "late to the party," for the Tampa-New England deal...

:noidea:

I've said it before, and I believe it...if you honestly believe that New England turned down a first round pick, and possibly two, so that Cassel could go to Denver and Cutler could go to Tampa, you're delusional.

You keep throwing out this "if you honestly believe that New England turned down a first round pick, and possibly two, so that Cassel could go to Denver and Cutler could go to Tampa, you're delusional." I have NEVER said that.

McDaniels said they were late. Not me. You do get that. Right?

You are taking two separate trade attempts, about a month apart, and saying that because the first one fell through, Tampa couldn't have been in the running for the second one. Please explain how this logic holds up.

Tampa, Washington, Detroit and Chicago were 'reportedly' teams that were interested in Cutler, after it was announced that the Broncos were going to trade Cutler.

I don't think anyone, other than you, has tried to claim that NE turned down one or more first round picks for Cassel, in order to trade him to KC for a second.

Instead, McDaniels himself indicates that they had a trade offer, he thought about it, and the next day started to explore a trade to Cassel, but it was too late, indicating the deal with KC was already done.

topscribe
12-05-2009, 11:26 AM
You keep throwing out this "if you honestly believe that New England turned down a first round pick, and possibly two, so that Cassel could go to Denver and Cutler could go to Tampa, you're delusional." I have NEVER said that.

McDaniels said they were late. Not me. You do get that. Right?

You are taking two separate trade attempts, about a month apart, and saying that because the first one fell through, Tampa couldn't have been in the running for the second one. Please explain how this logic holds up.

Tampa, Washington, Detroit and Chicago were 'reportedly' teams that were interested in Cutler, after it was announced that the Broncos were going to trade Cutler.

I don't think anyone, other than you, has tried to claim that NE turned down one or more first round picks for Cassel, in order to trade him to KC for a second.

Instead, McDaniels himself indicates that they had a trade offer, he thought about it, and the next day started to explore a trade to Cassel, but it was too late, indicating the deal with KC was already done.

McDaniels apparently never explored it very deeply. He also indicated that it
never got serious enough even to run it by Mr. Bowlen . . .

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Tned
12-05-2009, 11:36 AM
McDaniels apparently never explored it very deeply. He also indicated that it
never got serious enough even to run it by Mr. Bowlen . . .

-----

Ok, let's walk through it.

Accoring to Coach Josh McDaniels (NOT me), he was contacted by Tampa on February 26th about a possible three way deal trading Cutler to Tampa, where he could turn around and trade for Cassel.

He thought about it, and the next day began exploring a trade for Cassel, but McDaniels says "we were late to the dance." This would have been the 27th.

The trade for Cassel to the Chiefs was completed on the 28th.

Based on McDaniels saying the Broncos were late to the dance, and the fact the trade was completed/announced on the 28th, one day after he began 'exploring', clearly indicates that NE and KC had already committed to a deal, which is why the exploring didn't go very deeply.

When McDaniels himself freely admits that an opportunity arose and he pursued it, I am not sure why some fans are so adamant that McDaniels never 'really' explored trading for Cassel.

topscribe
12-05-2009, 12:00 PM
Ok, let's walk through it.

Accoring to Coach Josh McDaniels (NOT me), he was contacted by Tampa on February 26th about a possible three way deal trading Cutler to Tampa, where he could turn around and trade for Cassel.

He thought about it, and the next day began exploring a trade for Cassel, but McDaniels says "we were late to the dance." This would have been the 27th.

The trade for Cassel to the Chiefs was completed on the 28th.

Based on McDaniels saying the Broncos were late to the dance, and the fact the trade was completed/announced on the 28th, one day after he began 'exploring', clearly indicates that NE and KC had already committed to a deal, which is why the exploring didn't go very deeply.

When McDaniels himself freely admits that an opportunity arose and he pursued it, I am not sure why some fans are so adamant that McDaniels never 'really' explored trading for Cassel.

We don't need to "walk through it." I know the story. The fact is, McDaniels
freely admits that he and Xanders never got serious enough about it even to
run it by Mr. Bowlen. So they didn't. :whoknows:

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Tned
12-05-2009, 12:16 PM
We don't need to "walk through it." I know the story. The fact is, McDaniels
freely admits that he and Xanders never got serious enough about it even to
run it by Mr. Bowlen. So they didn't. :whoknows:

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Because, they were late to the party -- NE and KC had already worked out a deal.

I really don't see how McDaniels would benefit by lieing through his teeth about this, so I choose to assume he is telling the truth. Others choose to assume he's lieing... :whoknows:

Denver Native (Carol)
12-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Is it possible that when Coach McD was contacted by the other teams - i.e. - if we trade for Cassel, would you trade Cutler for Cassel, he first contacted NE to see if they were really serious about trading Cassel, and by the time he found out they were - the trade with KC was done - hence - "we were late to the party".

topscribe
12-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Because, they were late to the party -- NE and KC had already worked out a deal.

I really don't see how McDaniels would benefit by lieing through his teeth about this, so I choose to assume he is telling the truth. Others choose to assume he's lieing... :whoknows:

I assumed McDaniels was telling the truth from the beginning. The confusion was
from misrepresentations of what he said . . . from the beginning.

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Tned
12-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Is it possible that when Coach McD was contacted by the other teams - i.e. - if we trade for Cassel, would you trade Cutler for Cassel, he first contacted NE to see if they were really serious about trading Cassel, and by the time he found out they were - the trade with KC was done - hence - "we were late to the party".

Carol, that seems the only logical conclusion, with one small caveat. Based on what has been reported and McDaniels said, doesn't appear the third party would have traded for Cassel, and then traded him to Denver, but instead TB or another team would have traded for Cutler, and then Denver would have traded picks to KC for Cassel. However, according to coach McDaniels, the Broncos were too late to make a trade for Cassel.