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Shazam!
11-28-2009, 11:17 PM
This is complimentary to BTB's FG question.

Why don't coaches have late game FG kicks on 3rd Down?

I understand the danger, the kick is blocked and recovered by the other team. The risk is the same as throwing an INT or a fumble. At least if it happens in a tie situation (in OT for example) you still have a chance to stop them.

The perfect example of this was Tennessee @ Houston MNF game last week.

Down 20-17 with just a few seconds remaining, on 3rd down, Kubiak dials up QB Matt Shaub to run to the right to get better position on the kick. Kris Brown missed it with 1 second left. With a game on the line with seconds left, why not kick it on third down? Instead of Schaub moving Brown to the right, wouldn't giving him two shots at it be better?

I never understood why not kick on 3rd down in win-on-the-line situations.

shank
11-28-2009, 11:25 PM
you don't get two tries if you kick on 3rd. field goal try changes possession.

when teams DO kick on 3rd, it's in case there is a fumbled snap and they recover it, then they get another chance to attempt the kick on 4th down.

Shazam!
11-28-2009, 11:36 PM
I watched a Stellers game once and they kicked a FG on 3rd Down. My assumption was that this was to get another shot at the kick.

Thanks for the answer.

spikerman
11-29-2009, 01:50 PM
The only way the team would get to kick it again is if the ball does not cross the line of scrimmage such as like was mentioned earlier - if it's a bobbled snap, etc. In that situation the kicking team could fall on it and re-kick. Also if the ball is blocked and recovered by the kicking team they could re-kick it. Once the ball crosses the line of scrimmage it results in a change of possession unless one of the defensive players pulls a "Leon Lett" and touches the ball downfield and it's recovered by the kicking team.

OrangeHoof
12-01-2009, 09:38 PM
I believe that if a FG attempt is blocked and recovered by the kicking team, it does NOT get a second chance at a FG. But the scenario is so rarely done that I could be wrong. I believe the very act of kicking the ball changes the possession.

IMO, the only way a FG attempt on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down can be retried is if the ball is never kicked. If the snap is muffed or the ball fumbled while holding or if the kicker realizes he has no shot and the holder just kills the play, then another attempt can be attempted from the new spot.

I also believe, as strategy, that the "kick on third down" idea is almost useless. I'd rather spend third down either getting closer to the goal line or "centering" the ball in the middle of the field.

spikerman
12-02-2009, 06:05 PM
I believe that if a FG attempt is blocked and recovered by the kicking team, it does NOT get a second chance at a FG. But the scenario is so rarely done that I could be wrong. I believe the very act of kicking the ball changes the possession.

IMO, the only way a FG attempt on 1st, 2nd or 3rd down can be retried is if the ball is never kicked. If the snap is muffed or the ball fumbled while holding or if the kicker realizes he has no shot and the holder just kills the play, then another attempt can be attempted from the new spot.

I also believe, as strategy, that the "kick on third down" idea is almost useless. I'd rather spend third down either getting closer to the goal line or "centering" the ball in the middle of the field.I'm pretty sure that as long as the ball does not cross the line of scrimmage (even on a block) it can be recovered by the kicking team and can be re-kicked.

OrangeHoof
12-02-2009, 10:03 PM
I went to the NFL.com rule book and it dances around the subject without addressing the specific situation. It says an unsuccessful FG try turns the ball over to the other team. It also says the kicking team may not advance a blocked or unsuccessful FG try - only the defense can do that.

It's possible that the next time a FG attempt on third down is blocked and recovered by the kicking team, we'll have our answer as it may be the first time that was ever done.

spikerman
12-03-2009, 05:26 PM
I went to the NFL.com rule book and it dances around the subject without addressing the specific situation. It says an unsuccessful FG try turns the ball over to the other team. It also says the kicking team may not advance a blocked or unsuccessful FG try - only the defense can do that.

It's possible that the next time a FG attempt on third down is blocked and recovered by the kicking team, we'll have our answer as it may be the first time that was ever done.

I know it's been done at the hs level (using NCAA rules here in Texas) and as long as the ball doesn't cross the line of scrimmage the kicking team can recover it. They can even try to advance it. I'll try to do some research on the rule and post anything I find.

spikerman
12-03-2009, 07:36 PM
Ok, I did a quick search and the rule book is not clear (at least that I've found) It only says that a try recovered by the kicking team is a dead ball. It doesn't say that it automatically belongs to the "receiving" team. I can post that quote and link if you want.

One thing that I did find, though, was an article written by a Pittsburgh sports writer in 2002. It's talking about how Cleveland pulled out a lot of exciting/last second wins. Here is one of the examples he gives:

"Game 4: Bitter pill. A mind-bending affair sees Tommy Maddox take over for Kordell Stewart and thus alter the path of the Steelers’ season. Browns’ late field-goal attempt deflects off the head of Steelers lineman Kimo von Oelhoffen and another in overtime sails wide. Steelers win after Todd Peterson recovers his own blocked field goal on third down and gets another chance on fourth" That article can be found at http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_110368.html if you're interested. I'll keep looking, but if the writer's article is correct it looks like it can be re-kicked as long as it isn't 4th down and it doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.

red98
12-03-2009, 09:12 PM
Ok, I did a quick search and the rule book is not clear (at least that I've found) It only says that a try recovered by the kicking team is a dead ball. It doesn't say that it automatically belongs to the "receiving" team. I can post that quote and link if you want.

One thing that I did find, though, was an article written by a Pittsburgh sports writer in 2002. It's talking about how Cleveland pulled out a lot of exciting/last second wins. Here is one of the examples he gives:

"Game 4: Bitter pill. A mind-bending affair sees Tommy Maddox take over for Kordell Stewart and thus alter the path of the Steelers’ season. Browns’ late field-goal attempt deflects off the head of Steelers lineman Kimo von Oelhoffen and another in overtime sails wide. Steelers win after Todd Peterson recovers his own blocked field goal on third down and gets another chance on fourth" That article can be found at http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_110368.html if you're interested. I'll keep looking, but if the writer's article is correct it looks like it can be re-kicked as long as it isn't 4th down and it doesn't cross the line of scrimmage.


Here's another story about that game. The rule is if the kick doesn't pass the line of scrimmage and you recover it you can kick again if you have a down available.


If the kick advances past the line of scrimmage (regardless of what down you kicked on) and the opposing team touches it
and then the kicking team recovers, it's a new set of downs. (like a muff on a punt).


Jerome Bettis ran off right guard for 3 yards to the 6. On second down, Cowher called for his field-goal unit. Why now, with a new long-snapper in Dan O'Leary?

"I was planning on a bad snap or something of that nature," Cowher said. "Then we could have Tommy Maddox just fall on it and then kick it on the next down."

The snap was good and Peterson's kick from 24 yards was heading down the middle. But 6-foot-3 Alvin McKinley of Cleveland leaped and slapped it back with his hand. Then the fun began. Peterson picked up the ball and ran.

"I got the ball, if I score we win," was Peterson's first thought. "I never thought about the fact that it was second down and we get another chance."

Indeed. Except Peterson fumbled the ball after running 3 yards and Cleveland's Anthony Henry got a hand on it but not enough before Steelers special teams captain John Fiala recovered at the Browns' 13. Because the ball did not advance past the line of scrimmage and because the Steelers recovered it and because they did not kick on fourth down, they had another chance because it was third down.

http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/20020930steele0930p2.asp

spikerman
12-03-2009, 09:42 PM
Here's another story about that game. The rule is if the kick doesn't pass the line of scrimmage and you recover it you can kick again if you have a down available. Yes, that's correct. The key is the line of scrimmage. If you have a down available and the kicking team recovers a kick that does not cross the line of scrimmage the ball is dead, but is still the kicking team's ball.



If the kick advances past the line of scrimmage (regardless of what down you kicked on) and the opposing team touches it
and then the kicking team recovers, it's a new set of downs. (like a muff on a punt).


http://www.post-gazette.com/steelers/20020930steele0930p2.asp Correct. Once the ball crosses the line of scrimmage (even if it's blocked) the only way the kicking team could maintain possession is if the receiving team touches the ball downfield and is recovered by a kicking team member. Everybody thinks of punts in that scenario, but it can happen on field goals too. That's what the infamous Leon Lett play was all about.

OrangeHoof
12-03-2009, 10:41 PM
I learned something. Thanks, guys.

My guess is that it will be one of the rules that will *only* get used against one of my teams at a critical moment.

spikerman
12-04-2009, 06:35 AM
I learned something. Thanks, guys.

My guess is that it will be one of the rules that will *only* get used against one of my teams at a critical moment.

I work as an official and I learn something new all the time. The rules are a lot more complex than you would think. :salute:

Shazam!
12-04-2009, 09:44 PM
Aha! Thanks fellas.

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