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Cugel
11-21-2009, 10:58 AM
I've been saying this for some time, and it appears that NFL players and coaches are way ahead of me. The Broncos offense:



I asked an opposing defensive player I know (he asked to be off the record) and a coach who has been in the league for a long time about the Broncos, and both said Orton is not going to beat you. (http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_13817872)The wide receivers (Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Stokley) can beat you after they catch short passes, if they can break free, and the running game will beat you if you let them go wild. So you defend to keep the receivers in front of you and contain them when they catch, pay little attention to the tight ends and hold the running backs under 100 yards. You can even let Orton throw over the top a couple of times and get beat, but you know their game is the short pass and the run. That's how you game plan.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same." -- French proverb.

Back in 2000-01 there was the Brian Griese era. Mike Shanahan thought that HE could win a championship with a similar style, a QB who wasn't strong armed or mobile, but accurate and a smart kid who would make good reads and dump the ball off -- a short passing game and tough WRs Rod Smith and Eddie McCaffrey who could gain yards after the catch. Griese wasn't going to stretch the field and opposing teams didn't respect his arm on the deep ball. He was accurate in short to medium passes and didn't make mistakes. In 2000 he went to the pro-bowl with 19 TDs and only 4 Ints. and led the Broncos to the playoffs.

But, Shanahan got tired of watching defense crowd the line and rush Griese and stuff the run to beat the Broncos. He got rid of Griese and brought in Jake Plummer. Jake was more mobile and could throw on the run. He could buy more time and teams had to respect both is athletic ability and ability and roll-out ability.

But, teams (like Pittsburgh) realized that they could stuff the box to take away the run, bring pressure from the edges to prevent Plummer from rolling out and he couldn't beat you.

Then -- as now, the Broncos had a QB with an accurate arm out to about 15 yards, but not much vertical passing game.

Then -- as now, they depended on running the ball and play-action passes to be effective.

Then -- as now, after a good start to the season, teams started bringing 8 defenders into the box to stuff the run and hit the QB and force him to dump the ball off. Then they would tackle the WR before they could get going.

Essentially, defenses are defending a short field -- as if they were in the red-zone -- even when they aren't.

They can get away with that because Orton and Simms aren't going to make them pay by throwing deep consistently. And the lack of a running game isn't helping matters either.

Try that with a QB like Rivers, Brady or Manning, they will beat you deep on 40 yard pass-plays all night. Defenses CAN'T cheat against them or they get burned. Forcing teams to respect the deep ball makes them play honest -- and that opens up the run game and the short passing game.

But, aside from the last game, Orton hasn't even tried that, and it's not his strength in any case. He's NOT a QB who can consistently beat teams with the deep pass. They don't have to respect the deep pass, so they can cheat up towards the line.

Take away the Broncos run game by stuffing the box and get an early lead and the Broncos have no answer. Just as they didn't in the Griese era.



McDaniels felt if the Broncos forced more turnovers and cut down on their turnovers, they could play conservatively and win games. Worked for a while. But when playing against defenses from Pittsburgh and Baltimore, and even Washington has a sound defense, you get caught.

The problem for the team is that lack of an elite franchise QB. If Cutler continues to play like garbage next year as he has so far this year, then it will be clear that HE wasn't the answer. If he turns it around in Chicago, the trade will continue to be viewed as a mistake.

But, it's abundantly clear that neither Orton, nor Chris Simms is the answer either.


I believe, the Broncos have lost the heart and soul of the offensive line in recent years — Tom Nalen in the middle (who was injured, then sort of dumped), Ben Hamilton (who hasn't been the same since his concussions) and Matt Lepsis (who retired to study ministry), and they lost the serviceable Cooper Carlisle (Raiders). Even with Ryan Clady, now one of the best in the game at left tackle, and quality veteran Casey Wiegmann, the Broncos aren't the same on the line. I assume that when Mike Shanahan takes another job, he'll take Dennison with him as associate head coach.

You add a couple of injuries, two fresh starters (and I love Tyler Polumbus, but he's still adjusting to playing a lot), and that's caused some serious problems with the running game. Moreno is finding his way. Buckhalter is what he has been. And the Broncos are a passing team. Playing in shotgun, you're not going to get the same running game. And when you play a quality defense, it will bunch in against these Broncos.

Losing guys like Hamilton and Nalen hasn't helped at all. Ryan Harris has been hurt. Casey Weigman is nearing the end of his career. And McDaniels tinkering with the offensive blocking schemes that worked so well last year hasn't helped either. Right now, the Broncos simply don't have the personnel to be consistently good on offense, especially at QB.

Getting a healthy offensive line would at least give the offense a chance. But this scheme is just not going to work until and unless teams are forced to respect the Broncos vertical passing game and stop cheating up towards the line and stuffing the box to shut down the run.

nevcraw
11-21-2009, 11:36 AM
:confused:

my head hurts..

Northman
11-21-2009, 11:38 AM
When did anyone say Orton was John Elway? lmao

LawDog
11-21-2009, 11:41 AM
Cugel, the "article" you posted and quoted from is Woody Paige's mailbag column and the sections you quoted are a mixture of Woody's comments and questions submitted by readers.

I didn't even bother reading the material you wrote because you are basing your comments on a very sketchy source.

Superchop 7
11-21-2009, 12:04 PM
Cugel is right.

Spot on.

An elite QB changes everything, ESPECIALLY, "how" you will be attacked.

Lonestar
11-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Griese in 2000 was a pro bowl player yep but that was based on a short season and he did not lead the team in the last 6 games of the season..

http://www.nfl.com/players/briangriese/profile?id=GRI028314

he had a great year until he separated his shoulder running for an extra yard or so against the raiders he took a shot and went back in the finish the game with a bad shoulder that ender IMHO his career.. after that he was mister dink and dunk Even more so because he could not throw long..

never again did he play all the the games in a year.. he was gutsy but never had a great arm..


BTW he was the original head case QB in DEN if something did not go right he was the one that warmed up cutlers spot on the bench so he could beat himself up the original sulker at QB.. can't count the number of times he threw his helmet in disgust..

so yes he was a pro bowl player based on 10 games that year.. would he have made it with 16 I doubt it as general rule he through as many picks in his career as TD that 102 QB rating would not have lasted all year.. IMHO

so I did not read your post past the point on greasy and has been pointed out your other facts were shaky.. you used to be better..

Lonestar
11-21-2009, 02:36 PM
just as NE QB's do not have Deep arms the Scheme has worked pretty good for them..

I do not say that Orton has the potential to be another Brady, but who was brady before he mastered the scheme they use.. a 6th round backup..

I think I will give him time before writing KO off..

the Orton haters or jay lovers have ragged on him all year for one reason or another..

during preseason he threw to many picks..

after he stopped them and only threw one in 6 games and that was a hail Mary at the end of the half.. they said oh he only throws short passed..

when he connected with BM with two stretch the defense TD's then they said he was Lucky.

it is one excuse after another..

the game plan will be made up and changed each week to attack the weaknesses of the defense.. if that means throwing long they will if it means playing NE offense throwing short and allowing the play makers to get the yards to move the chains that is what they will do..

if the defense is weak against the run they will do that.. or they will mix it up keeping them off guard/balance..

let me say NO ONE expected this team to start so fast.. NO logical person did..

we have been neat but two really good teams over the past few weeks and one that we were not mentally ready for IMHO..

getting beat by a better team is nothing to hang your head on.. it happens..

they have both been playing there game plans for years.. in PIT case decades.. in BAL case their defense has been one of the best for almost a decade.. they got a young dynamic coach year and picked up a real up and comer in flaco.. and they have been playing lights out since..

we did not have the talent that other teams have YET.. we have a few stars but they are no good if we are losing the battle at the LOS.. something we have been doing for along time.. I have been harping on getting more beef on the OLINE and DL since 2000 or so.. having one star on each is not enough when they were surrounded by feather weights..
finally Josh started to move in bigger and stronger players.. and we will see more improvement this next few years..

get the talent to surround KO with protection and WR that can run routes and make catches allow them time to get to know each other and we will be winners each year.. get some beef at NT another 20-35 pounds and that DL will be almost immovable..

give the coaches and players time to not only learn the scheme but play it without thinking about what is going on they need time to get to know what the guy next to him is going to do in a given situation.. they have to be automatic not thinking and then reacting .. the great OLINES and DL's are like that..

we had a nice run and then other teams figured out how to beat us, and it will take time to become a changeling to be a consistent winner..

KO may not be the Brady but given the tools and time in the system he can IMHO be damned fine QB and lead this team. he may not have a rocket arm but he is a winner and and leader that we have not had since Jake and John before him left..

Shazam!
11-21-2009, 02:41 PM
Garbage article put together with spit... or shit.

Cugel
11-21-2009, 04:45 PM
Cugel, the "article" you posted and quoted from is Woody Paige's mailbag column and the sections you quoted are a mixture of Woody's comments and questions submitted by readers.

I didn't even bother reading the material you wrote because you are basing your comments on a very sketchy source.

That's called an ad hominem attack and it's the basic refuge of people who don't have any rational argument to make!

Just attack the man and you don't have to deal with what he said!

Well, if someone makes a rational argument you have to deal with it.

It frankly doesn't matter if you don't like Woody Paige. He made a perfectly sound argument. Either deal with it or don't bother to post in this thread!

But, you don't get away with dismissing arguments because you don't like the source! :coffee:

Cugel
11-21-2009, 04:46 PM
Garbage article put together with spit... or shit.

Useless post put together with spit or shit because it has no factual content. :coffee:

Cugel
11-21-2009, 04:58 PM
just as NE QB's do not have Deep arms the Scheme has worked pretty good for them..

I do not say that Orton has the potential to be another Brady, but who was brady before he mastered the scheme they use.. a 6th round backup..

I think I will give him time before writing KO off..

the Orton haters or jay lovers have ragged on him all year for one reason or another..

during preseason he threw to many picks..

after he stopped them and only threw one in 6 games and that was a hail Mary at the end of the half.. they said oh he only throws short passed..

when he connected with BM with two stretch the defense TD's then they said he was Lucky.

it is one excuse after another..

the game plan will be made up and changed each week to attack the weaknesses of the defense.. if that means throwing long they will if it means playing NE offense throwing short and allowing the play makers to get the yards to move the chains that is what they will do..

if the defense is weak against the run they will do that.. or they will mix it up keeping them off guard/balance..

let me say NO ONE expected this team to start so fast.. NO logical person did..

we have been neat but two really good teams over the past few weeks and one that we were not mentally ready for IMHO..

getting beat by a better team is nothing to hang your head on.. it happens..

they have both been playing there game plans for years.. in PIT case decades.. in BAL case their defense has been one of the best for almost a decade.. they got a young dynamic coach year and picked up a real up and comer in flaco.. and they have been playing lights out since..

we did not have the talent that other teams have YET.. we have a few stars but they are no good if we are losing the battle at the LOS.. something we have been doing for along time.. I have been harping on getting more beef on the OLINE and DL since 2000 or so.. having one star on each is not enough when they were surrounded by feather weights..
finally Josh started to move in bigger and stronger players.. and we will see more improvement this next few years..

get the talent to surround KO with protection and WR that can run routes and make catches allow them time to get to know each other and we will be winners each year.. get some beef at NT another 20-35 pounds and that DL will be almost immovable..

give the coaches and players time to not only learn the scheme but play it without thinking about what is going on they need time to get to know what the guy next to him is going to do in a given situation.. they have to be automatic not thinking and then reacting .. the great OLINES and DL's are like that..

we had a nice run and then other teams figured out how to beat us, and it will take time to become a changeling to be a consistent winner..

KO may not be the Brady but given the tools and time in the system he can IMHO be damned fine QB and lead this team. he may not have a rocket arm but he is a winner and and leader that we have not had since Jake and John before him left..

Sounds like you're still making excuses for Orton. :coffee:

I thought, based on Orton's career before this year, that he was essentially Brian Griese part II. Right now, I'd say Griese was a better QB than Orton has shown so far. Griese only threw 4 picks in 2000. Well Orton has thrown 3 in the last 3 games, and he only played 1/2 of the Redskins game.

I think Brian Griese proved that a mediocre "system QB" can't lead you to victory in the playoffs. Mike Shanahan who's forgotten more football than I'll ever know, came to the same conclusion: which is why he got rid of Griese.

Remember Brian Griese was NOT a horrible QB! He was good enough to stick around in the NFL for more than 10 seasons. You don't last like that unless you can prove yourself in this league. Period. So, he had some talent.

It just wasn't good enough to propel his teams to a championship -- or even a playoff win.

Why is it that people keep insisting that a "strong armed QB isn't necessary" and that Tom Brady proves it? Brady has a MUCH better arm than either Orton or Simms, and quite frankly comparing ANYBODY to Tom Brady is futile and stupid! He's a uniquely successful QB who will AUTOMATICALLY be in the Hall of Fame when he retires.

Comparing someone to him is pointless. Not even Drew Brees or Phillip Rivers, nor Ben Roethlisberger or Eli Manning is in a class with Brady -- not yet anyway.

Saying Brady doesn't have a great arm is both wrong and futile. He does. Orton doesn't.

BUT, why argue? Just wait until next Thursday when the Broncos will probably have two more losses which will make FIVE in a row.

The "Orton Army" will have to surrender their colors at that point or just go so deep in denial that their families will have to stage an intervention. :coffee:

rcsodak
11-21-2009, 05:04 PM
Cugel is right.

Spot on.

An elite QB changes everything, ESPECIALLY, "how" you will be attacked.

Tell that to da' bears.... :coffee:

Tom Brady's "elite", and his team is ALSO 6-3. Gee...wonder if his fans are calling for his head, his coaches head....calling Oline old....bad scheme...etc.

Ya'll will NEVER be happy unless this team wins a SB. And that's NOT gonna be in the near future.

MOST of you were calling for Shanny's head for the last few years. How he couldn't draft defense....brought in a "loser" in Plummer....his "browncos"....etc.

Funny thing is the team was ALWAYS in the hunt, and had winning records.

Then you get what you wanted, his release, and the same whining/bitching/moaning/groaning occurs.

Maybe ya'll need to find a new team that does nothing but win SB's.

Of course this would require you to wait until AFTER the SB is over, but what's a few more months..... :coffee:

MOtorboat
11-21-2009, 05:09 PM
Quarterback A: 181-287 (63%), 2,031 yards, 11 touchdowns, 4 INTs, 91.1 Rating.
Quarterback B: 178-290 (61%), 2,010 yards, 14 touchdowns, 7 INTs, 88.1 Rating.

Can you tell me who those two quarterbacks are?

rcsodak
11-21-2009, 05:16 PM
That's called an ad hominem attack and it's the basic refuge of people who don't have any rational argument to make!

Just attack the man and you don't have to deal with what he said!

Well, if someone makes a rational argument you have to deal with it.

It frankly doesn't matter if you don't like Woody Paige. He made a perfectly sound argument. Either deal with it or don't bother to post in this thread!

But, you don't get away with dismissing arguments because you don't like the source! :coffee:

So because YOU decided Woody's right, in this article, anybody that refutes him, *or you*, is irrational?

Nice legal spin, cug.

But it doesn't wash.

You've said nothing that anybody else hasn't already said. And to simply use Woody's words as 'backup'....well...as someone else said, you've written better.

Lonestar
11-21-2009, 05:21 PM
come on Cugel you know that greasy was a much better QB until he hurt his shoulder but he still did not have a strong arm.. KO has an arm and he has never had to use it in bear land.. he did not have anyone to get 20+yards past the LOS while there.. does he have jays arm no but neither does Brady who is a cerebral QB just like Orton is..

Brady does not have an outstanding long arm either he has play makers that he has chemistry with..

for example this year KO has 6 40+ yard passes to Brady's 4 and 20 20+ yarders to toms 27 not to far off considering KO has missed half a game and had a compound dislocated fore finger on his throwing hand for 3-4 games..

I'm not saying he is Tom Brady reincarnate.. I'm just saying he has had less than 6 months to learn a system Tom Brady said took him 3 years to learn..where it was automatic..

I'm saying he has been without a throwing hand for almost half of his season, and his BIG target marshall was not tuned into the game until about the 4-5 game.. Eddie is not been here most of the year for what ever reason and his OLINE has not been stellar at pass protection and opening holes for RB's..

Are those excuses for his damned fine performance so far this year.. well I guess so.. I'm willing to give the kid, OLINE, WR and RB's a chance to learn the scheme and work on some timings.. why are you not willing to do so????

MasterShake
11-21-2009, 05:21 PM
I asked an opposing defensive player I know (he asked to be off the record) and a coach who has been in the league for a long time about the Broncos, and both said Orton is not going to beat you. The wide receivers (Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Stokley) can beat you after they catch short passes, if they can break free, and the running game will beat you if you let them go wild. So you defend to keep the receivers in front of you and contain them when they catch, pay little attention to the tight ends and hold the running backs under 100 yards. You can even let Orton throw over the top a couple of times and get beat, but you know their game is the short pass and the run. That's how you game plan.

Holy crap! This guy just gave us the blueprint to shut down almost every NFL team!

Personally, I think Orton and Simms are both more than capable QB's with the talent we have on our team, but we need to play FLAWLESS. Even with our 3 game skid, I'm kinda digging the new offensive schemes when they work. No matter what, I think we are gonna come out and blow the Chargers out of the water tomorrow as long as we get back to mistake free football. Our D shows up again, and Orton/Simms get clicking. I think our team is good, and good teams thrive under adversity! :salute:

rcsodak
11-21-2009, 05:24 PM
BUT, why argue? Just wait until next Thursday when the Broncos will probably have two more losses which will make FIVE in a row.

The "Orton Army" will have to surrender their colors at that point or just go so deep in denial that their families will have to stage an intervention. :coffee:

Nice attitude toward *supposedly* your team.

So I suppose having a strong armed qb, like cutler, would have changed everything, right?

Never mind his forcing throws into double/triple coverage. Never mind his LEADING the league in redzone int's.

I'll ALWAYS take a smart, leader of the team, qb, over a brash/narcissistic, chance-taking, strong armed qb.

At least Orton carries a winning record.

claymore
11-21-2009, 05:38 PM
Nice attitude toward *supposedly* your team.

So I suppose having a strong armed qb, like cutler, would have changed everything, right?

Never mind his forcing throws into double/triple coverage. Never mind his LEADING the league in redzone int's.

I'll ALWAYS take a smart, leader of the team, qb, over a brash/narcissistic, chance-taking, strong armed qb.

At least Orton carries a winning record.

Good lord drop the Cutler shit. If you have faith in this offense you arent very smart. QB's suck, O-line sucks because they (majority were drafted asZB guys). Defense is a paper tiger.

Call a spade a spade and quit being friggen fan police that use Cutler to support any and every argument.

If you dont agree, prove why we lost the last three games. I will give you a hint, It had nothing to do with Cutler. We sucked with ORTON.

MOtorboat
11-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Good lord drop the Cutler shit. If you have faith in this offense you arent very smart. QB's suck, O-line sucks because they (majority were drafted asZB guys). Defense is a paper tiger.

Call a spade a spade and quit being friggen fan police that use Cutler to support any and every argument.

If you dont agree, prove why we lost the last three games. I will give you a hint, It had nothing to do with Cutler. We sucked with ORTON.

Exactly.

And the six wins before that were only luck.

Everyone get in line. Orton sucks.

topscribe
11-21-2009, 07:30 PM
Quarterback A: 181-287 (63%), 2,031 yards, 11 touchdowns, 4 INTs, 91.1 Rating.
Quarterback B: 178-290 (61%), 2,010 yards, 14 touchdowns, 7 INTs, 88.1 Rating.

Can you tell me who those two quarterbacks are?

Oh-oh. You still trying to compare Orton with Brady?

Watch out for the (Put-Orton-in-a) Vice Squad . . . :couch:

-----

topscribe
11-21-2009, 07:31 PM
Good lord drop the Cutler shit. If you have faith in this offense you arent very smart. QB's suck, O-line sucks because they (majority were drafted asZB guys). Defense is a paper tiger.

Call a spade a spade and quit being friggen fan police that use Cutler to support any and every argument.

If you dont agree, prove why we lost the last three games. I will give you a hint, It had nothing to do with Cutler. We sucked with ORTON.

Yeah! Let's drop the Cutler shit so we can continue with the Orton shit!! :nod:

-----

Ziggy
11-21-2009, 07:40 PM
Orton is neither a championship QB or a bad QB in my opinion. He has his strenghs and weaknesses. One thing that I do like about him, is the fact that he will rarely ever lose a game by throwing silly interceptions. On the other hand, he will rarely win a game on his ability alone. I'll say it again. He's a good sytem QB, just not a championship caliber QB IMO. Most people around here seem to want to either make him out to be great or horrible, and refuse to believe that he might actually just be something inbetween the two.

Ziggy
11-21-2009, 07:44 PM
Personally, I think Orton and Simms are both more than capable QB's with the talent we have on our team, but we need to play FLAWLESS. Even with our 3 game skid, I'm kinda digging the new offensive schemes when they work. No matter what, I think we are gonna come out and blow the Chargers out of the water tomorrow as long as we get back to mistake free football. Our D shows up again, and Orton/Simms get clicking. I think our team is good, and good teams thrive under adversity! :salute:

Right on the money Shake. I'm just glad that we are sitting here arguing about our 6-3 team at this point in the season. 3 losses in row or not, this team can and will compete all season long. It may have gotten ugly the last 3 games, but I truly believe that this is a 10 win team. Even the eternal optimist in me wouldn't have had confidence in that statement before the season started.

rcsodak
11-21-2009, 08:17 PM
Good lord drop the Cutler shit. If you have faith in this offense you arent very smart. QB's suck, O-line sucks because they (majority were drafted asZB guys). Defense is a paper tiger.

Call a spade a spade and quit being friggen fan police that use Cutler to support any and every argument.

If you dont agree, prove why we lost the last three games. I will give you a hint, It had nothing to do with Cutler. We sucked with ORTON.

Quite to the contrary, clay. I AM smart. Smart enough to realize that EVERYTIME Orton is bashed, it's coming from those that hated the cutler trade. Maybe it should be the 'culter' trade, since nobody will ever equal him in some minds..

silkamilkamonico
11-22-2009, 05:15 PM
I agree, and want an elite QB too. We haven't had one since Elway retired with 2 SuperBowl wins and a plethora of playoff victories.

Coincidence? I think not.

silkamilkamonico
11-22-2009, 05:17 PM
Quite to the contrary, clay. I AM smart. Smart enough to realize that EVERYTIME Orton is bashed, it's coming from those that hated the cutler trade. Maybe it should be the 'culter' trade, since nobody will ever equal him in some minds..

You mean nobody will ever equal his ability to turn the ball over.

The thought of Cutler as an "elite" QB in the NFL has qulickly turned into the joke of the Chicago Bears organization.