You Can Have Your Doom and Gloom....

[Ziggy]

I thought that I'd go ahead and take a positive approach to Simms starting this Sunday with Orton injured. Now I know that this won't be taken well by some, but I am the way I am. What advantages can we look for? Simms is more mobile, and has a stronger arm. He has also had a full week to practice with the first team offense. This will give McD a chance to open up more of the playbook.

Don't be surprised to see a moving pocket, long throws, and a trick play or two. McD knows that this is the most important game of the season thus far, so I think he pulls out all the stops. I'll be looking for the deep pass once or twice in the first couple of drives. This should keep the defense from cheating up on the underneath routes, and open up some running lanes.

Also, look for either Eddie Royal or Brandon Stokely to have thier best game of the season. Without the threat of the deep pass up to this point, defenders have been playing the short passing zones and not having to worry about protecting against the big play.(Other than a couple of broken coverages by Washington.) BMarsh should get a couple of shots to make a play deep, and battle for the big play.

McDaniels has yet to pull out the no huddle offense,and this might be the week to do it. The Broncos D has been talking about getting back to the fundamentals and team defense that got them off to the 6-0 start. McBean returns, which should help shore up the run D. If the Broncos can get some consistant pressure on Rivers, it could be a long day for him and a very good day for Doom.

Most of the football 'experts' are counting the Broncos out of this game before they even take the field, saying that they have no chance. This is music to my ears, and brings back fond memories of the first 6 games of the season. Let's see if this team can throw another wrench in the plans of those who claim to know the game the best.

Regardless of how this game turns out, despite not having our starting QB, I can tell you that this team will not lie down like it did last season against the Chargers in the biggest game of the year. It will be a knock down drag out fight at Invesco on Sunday. I can't wait for this game to start.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Classy post as always Ziggy :salute: And as I posted in another thread, I am BEHIND whoever is out on the field playing for the Broncos.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I hope you're right. You're definitely right about this being the game of the year for us.

[Northman]

I thought that I'd go ahead and take a positive approach to Simms starting this Sunday with Orton injured. Now I know that this won't be taken well by some, but I am the way I am. What advantages can we look for? Simms is more mobile, and has a stronger arm. He has also had a full week to practice with the first team offense. This will give McD a chance to open up more of the playbook.

Well, Cutler was more mobile and has a stronger arm. But he is also prone to a lot more mistakes and turnovers. So going by your theory its not always a step up to get someone like Cutler or Simms. Especially if it ends up putting more pressure on your defense after committing turnovers. The other thing i will add is that there is no proof that McD is using a limited playbook. And a lot of that was dispelled last week in the first half against the Skins. For all we know the style of offense that McD has been using is indeed what he has been wanting to use.


Also, look for either Eddie Royal or Brandon Stokely to have thier best game of the season. Without the threat of the deep pass up to this point, defenders have been playing the short passing zones and not having to worry about protecting against the big play.(Other than a couple of broken coverages by Washington.) BMarsh should get a couple of shots to make a play deep, and battle for the big play.

Again, based on what? Marshall has already come out on public record and said they were looking to exploit Washington and their defensive scheme on the long TD passes. However, when Simms was put in he did not read the coverage like he should and threw a INT when attempting his own long shot.


McDaniels has yet to pull out the no huddle offense,and this might be the week to do it. The Broncos D has been talking about getting back to the fundamentals and team defense that got them off to the 6-0 start. McBean returns, which should help shore up the run D. If the Broncos can get some consistant pressure on Rivers, it could be a long day for him and a very good day for Doom.

Agree on the defense, whatever they were doing the first 6 weeks they have not been doing the last 3 except in the first 2 halfs vs Bmore and Pitt. However, i dont think Simms will be able to really command a no huddle offense but however i would love for him to prove me wrong.


Regardless of how this game turns out, despite not having our starting QB, I can tell you that this team will not lie down like it did last season against the Chargers in the biggest game of the year. It will be a knock down drag out fight at Invesco on Sunday. I can't wait for this game to start.

I also agree with this but should Simms turn the ball over too much ala Orton against Pitt it could be a very long day at Invesco. Like i said, a strong arm does you no good if the guy throwing it cant read coverages correctly and is prone to turnovers. If Simms is smart he is looking at nothing but game film of the Chargers defense and the schemes they run. And as for the defense and special teams, they definitely need to get back to fundamentals because the last 3 weeks have been very dismal in those departments.

[Nomad]

Hopefully, Mcbean brings back a spark to this defense!!

As far as Simms goes, I agree with North. And I believe most BRONCOS are behind whoever is on this team. I doubt any of us want to see them fail because that means we lose! But this also doesn't mean we'll have 100% confidence in the guy especially being unproven!! I've never been a fan of Simms but he can win me over by beating the Chargers on Sunday!!;)

[Nomad]

And as for the defense and special teams, they definitely need to get back to fundamentals because the last 3 weeks have been very dismal in those departments.

I thought it was because we played the AFCCG winner and runner up and we won 6 games (beyond peoples expectations....ah satisfied)??:coffee: Sorry, North, I had to say it. I believe this team has lost some spark over the bye week other than playing teams like the Steelers and Ravens...the Redskins proved this. Like I said before, if the BRONCOS can't get hyped up and find intensity for this game, the rest of the season is in jeopardy.

Now if we lose this game by 1-3 points and don't allow a 4th quarter beatdown, then I won't be as disappointed because at least this shows me the BRONCOS gave a fighting chance and their might be hope!! A win would be so much sweeter!!

[Ziggy]

Again, based on what? Marshall has already come out on public record and said they were looking to exploit Washington and their defensive scheme on the long TD passes. However, when Simms was put in he did not read the coverage like he should and threw a INT when attempting his own long shot.

I'm not in Dove Valley for the team meetings Northman, so my opinion is based on pure speculation. It's just very hard for me to believe that all of the first 8 teams we played were gameplanned for the short passing game and not stretching the D because of thier defenses. I believe that it's because Orton's weakness is throwing the long ball. Therefore, the short game gave us the best chance to limit interceptions and win, regardless of the opponent. While Simms no doubt looked like a deer in the headlights last game, he does have a stronger arm than Orton, and can buy more time with his legs. I'm hoping that a week of practice with the starters will help prepare him to play better this week, and give the Broncos a chance to change the gameplan up. San Diego's defense is average at best.

Brandon Marshall is in the Dove Valley meetings, so I will have to take his word for it that the game plan was to exploit the D with the long ball finally. Whatever the case may be, I'd like to see him get some opportunities to make a play on the deep ball, whether he is covered or not. I'll take my chances with Brandon and any corner in the league on a jump ball with one on one coverage. If nothing else, it will keep the defense honest, and make them stop cheating up to play the short passing lanes.

I think that tomorrow will tell us a lot about Simms and whether he is worth keeping around for the second year of his contract.

[topscribe]

I thought that I'd go ahead and take a positive approach to Simms starting this Sunday with Orton injured. Now I know that this won't be taken well by some, but I am the way I am. What advantages can we look for? Simms is more mobile, and has a stronger arm. He has also had a full week to practice with the first team offense. This will give McD a chance to open up more of the playbook.

Don't be surprised to see a moving pocket, long throws, and a trick play or two. McD knows that this is the most important game of the season thus far, so I think he pulls out all the stops. I'll be looking for the deep pass once or twice in the first couple of drives. This should keep the defense from cheating up on the underneath routes, and open up some running lanes.

Also, look for either Eddie Royal or Brandon Stokely to have thier best game of the season. Without the threat of the deep pass up to this point, defenders have been playing the short passing zones and not having to worry about protecting against the big play.(Other than a couple of broken coverages by Washington.) BMarsh should get a couple of shots to make a play deep, and battle for the big play.

McDaniels has yet to pull out the no huddle offense,and this might be the week to do it. The Broncos D has been talking about getting back to the fundamentals and team defense that got them off to the 6-0 start. McBean returns, which should help shore up the run D. If the Broncos can get some consistant pressure on Rivers, it could be a long day for him and a very good day for Doom.

Most of the football 'experts' are counting the Broncos out of this game before they even take the field, saying that they have no chance. This is music to my ears, and brings back fond memories of the first 6 games of the season. Let's see if this team can throw another wrench in the plans of those who claim to know the game the best.

Regardless of how this game turns out, despite not having our starting QB, I can tell you that this team will not lie down like it did last season against the Chargers in the biggest game of the year. It will be a knock down drag out fight at Invesco on Sunday. I can't wait for this game to start.

I don't understand your comments about the threat of a deep pass. Did Orton
not complete 40-yard and 75-yard TDs in the past game, or did I just awaken
from a dream? Did not Orton launch the Hail Mary in the NE game 65 yards in
the air, or was I hallucinating? I also remember something about his throwing
the ball 74 yards as a high school senior.

McDaniels and Orton both said that Baltimore and Pittsburgh were playing
their safeties deep at times. There is only one reason to play safeties deep:
to guard against the deep stuff. If they viewed no deep threat with Orton in
there, why were they playing so deep?

I declare, Orton could jump over the goal posts, and some people would say
he can't jump.

I believe Simms will do a far better job this week than last. But he was what
he was when Orton beat him out in preseason. It isn't like someone waiting in
the wings and all the sudden the Broncos will realize what they have: The two
QBs were given equal chance in preseason. It is my hope Simms does well and
the Broncos win. But they Broncos already know what they have.

-----

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

How many times do I have to tell you people we are going to win this game?

TAAAAKE IIITTT

[Northman]

I thought it was because we played the AFCCG winner and runner up and we won 6 games (beyond peoples expectations....ah satisfied)??:coffee: Sorry, North, I had to say it. I believe this team has lost some spark over the bye week other than playing teams like the Steelers and Ravens...the Redskins proved this.

Well, to pretend that Pitt and Bmore are slouches would be ignorant to say the least no? Both are solid teams and yet even both of them have struggled this year in certain games and matchups. Denver doesnt seem to matchup with them that well. With the Skins, it was a defensive breakdown which goes back to my earlier discussions about beating teams you NEED to beat because they are so bad. However, this is the NFL and parity reigns supreme year in and year out for just about any team. There are certain circumstances that have plagued us the last 3 weeks that didnt plague us the first 6 games and the list is long. So while i agree that the team has lost a spark they also lost to 2 very good teams and one very mediocre team which is the worst of the bunch to me. Last year we won 8 games but lost to teams like Oakland and KC which is unacceptable. But again, parity.


Now if we lose this game by 1-3 points and don't allow a 4th quarter beatdown, then I won't be as disappointed because at least this shows me the BRONCOS gave a fighting chance and their might be hope!! A win would be so much sweeter!!

Couldnt agree more, however most of the beatdowns have been the result of not taking care of the ball and the putting the defense in even worse situations. I know your a big horn tooter for the "standard has already been set" but thats not the reality here. Denver has simply gone above expectations but are still in need of work. Winning 6 games does not make you a SB contender. No matter how the team finishes down the road there is still a lot of work to be done.

[Northman]

I'm not in Dove Valley for the team meetings Northman, so my opinion is based on pure speculation. It's just very hard for me to believe that all of the first 8 teams we played were gameplanned for the short passing game and not stretching the D because of thier defenses. I believe that it's because Orton's weakness is throwing the long ball. Therefore, the short game gave us the best chance to limit interceptions and win, regardless of the opponent. While Simms no doubt looked like a deer in the headlights last game, he does have a stronger arm than Orton, and can buy more time with his legs. I'm hoping that a week of practice with the starters will help prepare him to play better this week, and give the Broncos a chance to change the gameplan up. San Diego's defense is average at best.

Brandon Marshall is in the Dove Valley meetings, so I will have to take his word for it that the game plan was to exploit the D with the long ball finally. Whatever the case may be, I'd like to see him get some opportunities to make a play on the deep ball, whether he is covered or not. I'll take my chances with Brandon and any corner in the league on a jump ball with one on one coverage. If nothing else, it will keep the defense honest, and make them stop cheating up to play the short passing lanes.

I think that tomorrow will tell us a lot about Simms and whether he is worth keeping around for the second year of his contract.


I think we all would like to see more down the field action. Hopefully we can do more things with Simms in there but im not buying in until i can see it first hand. I only say this because Jay has a lot of talent and potential but in his 4th year is still not improving his mechanics and game study. We shall see if Simms puts the time in to take advantage of the opportunity given to him. :salute:

[Ravage!!!]

The safeties for Baltimore and Pitt were NOT Playing deeper than any other safties.

[LawDog]

I don't understand your comments about the threat of a deep pass. Did Orton
not complete 40-yard and 75-yard TDs in the past game, or did I just awaken
from a dream? Did not Orton launch the Hail Mary in the NE game 65 yards in
the air, or was I hallucinating? I also remember something about his throwing
the ball 74 yards as a high school senior.

McDaniels and Orton both said that Baltimore and Pittsburgh were playing
their safeties deep at times. There is only one reason to play safeties deep:
to guard against the deep stuff. If they viewed no deep threat with Orton in
there, why were they playing so deep?

I declare, Orton could jump over the goal posts, and some people would say
he can't jump.

I believe Simms will do a far better job this week than last. But he was what
he was when Orton beat him out in preseason. It isn't like someone waiting in
the wings and all the sudden the Broncos will realize what they have: The two
QBs were given equal chance in preseason. It is my hope Simms does well and
the Broncos win. But they Broncos already know what they have.

-----

Top, no one is saying that Orton can not manage to fling a football 60 plus yards in the air. And yes he did manage to get the ball to Marshall on two different plays last week - one of which Marshall practically had to stop and wait for the ball to get there.

That ability, however, DOES NOT MAKE HIM A DEEP BALL THREAT and you really need to stop beating that drum. Orton does not have the arm to consistently connect with a receiver, in-stride, with accuracy, in coverage when said receiver is 25 plus yards beyond the line of scrimage. He does manage to do all of that within 20 yards of the LOS and does so impressively with a ton of zip on the ball.

Go back and look at the first touch down to Marshall from last week. Orton had to take a running start to heave the ball down there. True deep ball quartebacks make that same throw simply planting and pushing off.

Two-different things, entirely. It is not bashing Orton, it is simply being pragmatic about his capabilities.

[Nomad]

Well, to pretend that Pitt and Bmore are slouches would be ignorant to say the least no? Both are solid teams and yet even both of them have struggled this year in certain games and matchups. Denver doesnt seem to matchup with them that well. With the Skins, it was a defensive breakdown which goes back to my earlier discussions about beating teams you NEED to beat because they are so bad. However, this is the NFL and parity reigns supreme year in and year out for just about any team. There are certain circumstances that have plagued us the last 3 weeks that didnt plague us the first 6 games and the list is long. So while i agree that the team has lost a spark they also lost to 2 very good teams and one very mediocre team which is the worst of the bunch to me. Last year we won 8 games but lost to teams like Oakland and KC which is unacceptable. But again, parity.



Couldnt agree more, however most of the beatdowns have been the result of not taking care of the ball and the putting the defense in even worse situations. I know your a big horn tooter for the "standard has already been set" but thats not the reality here. Denver has simply gone above expectations but are still in need of work. Winning 6 games does not make you a SB contender. No matter how the team finishes down the road there is still a lot of work to be done.

Never said they were slouches and yes they're very soild teams on both sides of the ball, but if Denver was as good as their record (which people keep throwing around), they should have played like it in those games. There were far worse teams than the BRONCOS that played them tougher and had a closer game!! I know it's a game of matchups but my beef is this team seems to be giving up rather than fighting till the end. I use to think it was the defense getting tired but after watching their performance in the Redskins game, I believe differently. If you look at the history of the BRONCOS and Steelers, BRONCOS have always done well, no matter how good the Steelers were. Oh well, I guess we're looking at things differently but our main goal is for the BRONCOS to get better and get wins. I would like from here on out to see this team improve rather than decline!!

All I ask of the BRONCOS is to keep the games close, win or lose (rather a win) and it's disappointing weaker teams are doing this to teams the BRONCOS are struggling with. I guess this game tomorrow will tell me where the BRONCOS heart lies!!

[Ziggy]

Top, no one is saying that Orton can not manage to fling a football 60 plus yards in the air. And yes he did manage to get the ball to Marshall on two different plays last week - one of which Marshall practically had to stop and wait for the ball to get there.

That ability, however, DOES NOT MAKE HIM A DEEP BALL THREAT and you really need to stop beating that drum. Orton does not have the arm to consistently connect with a receiver, in-stride, with accuracy, in coverage when said receiver is 25 plus yards beyond the line of scrimage. He does manage to do all of that within 20 yards of the LOS and does so impressively with a ton of zip on the ball.

Go back and look at the first touch down to Marshall from last week. Orton had to take a running start to heave the ball down there. True deep ball quartebacks make that same throw simply planting and pushing off.

Two-different things, entirely. It is not bashing Orton, it is simply being pragmatic about his capabilities.

Very well said Law Dog. And Top, I'm not bashing Orton. I'm simply stating that he is not and never has been a QB that can consistently stretch the D. He has won 6 out of 9 contests for the Broncos this season, and I'm doing back flips over that fact. I do not however, beleive that he's the long term solution for a team that wants to be a championship contender year in and year out. My team is 6-3 in a year in which they have rebuilt about 60% of the roster, hired a new unproven head coach, and traded away the so-called franchise QB. I don't believe that Cutler is a franchise QB, but this season has been the best one for me since Elway retired.

[Lonestar]

Very well said Law Dog. And Top, I'm not bashing Orton. I'm simply stating that he is not and never has been a QB that can consistently stretch the D. He has won 6 out of 9 contests for the Broncos this season, and I'm doing back flips over that fact. I do not however, beleive that he's the long term solution for a team that wants to be a championship contender year in and year out. My team is 6-3 in a year in which they have rebuilt about 60% of the roster, hired a new unproven head coach, and traded away the so-called franchise QB. I don't believe that Cutler is a franchise QB, but this season has been the best one for me since Elway retired.


as I said in another thread it is to early to say if KO is the long term solution..

this team has:


31 new players on it over the 2008 roster..

9 new starters on defense.

brand new scheme on Defense complete overhaul on personnel and switched to 3-4..

brand new scheme on Offense that everyone except Josh and Gaffney had to learn from scratch..

marshall dicked around till the season started was unprepared for the season and into it by 2-3 games....

Eddie royal is in a sophomore slump..

our RB's have had fumbleitis

we have yet to ulitilize one of our best O weapson from last year.. hillis..



folks it is unreasonable to think with all the changes on this team that they would be running like a well oiled machine from day one.. NEW schemes require everyone to KNOW it beofre the play it.. they need to not only be comfortable with it but trust the other 10 players on the field are also..

even then knowing it and everything being automatic and not thinking about what they are doing or what the guy next to him is doing is not going to come over night.. it is going to take time for the OLINE to move as one, to pick up the blitzers without THINKING about it.. no amount of practice can make this smooth at GAME pace.. when everyone is on the same page mentally and not thinking about what is happening then

I believe that with a few exceptions the players we have will be starters for a long time.. who was Brady before he knew the system.. he does not have a huge arm but he does have the time in place to KNOW the timing of his receivers and he is a great field general.. I think KO has the same potential.. but we have to give him the time to learn it and everyone else the time to learn it also..

BTW Brady was quoted as saying it took him about 3 years to master the scheme..his first year with the Pats he had a 42.4 rating and a 33.3% completion record.. his second year 86.5 and 63.9. about what KO is doing 91.1 and 63.1.. so I guess KO is a tad farther ahead of Brady's second year in the system..

[Ziggy]

BTW Brady was quoted as saying it took him about 3 years to master the scheme..his first year with the Pats he had a 42.4 rating and a 33.3% completion record.. his second year 86.5 and 63.9. about what KO is doing 91.1 and 63.1.. so I guess KO is a tad farther ahead of Brady's second year in the system..


I'm calling you out on this one JR. You're taking Brady's stats from his first season in which he played in a small part of one game and attempted a whole 3 passes. He was also a rookie. Are you kidding me with this?

Even if you want to argue his second year stats compared to Orton's first year stats in this system, it's apples and oranges considering the fact that Brady was in his second year in the NFL, his first one as a starter, and Orton is in his 5th season with plenty of experience as a starter.

Come on JR. You're better than this.

[Ravage!!!]

Going by pre-season predictions now, doesn't make sense. We made guesses on how the team was going to perform based on last years team. We guessed from additions, subtractions, and schedule... and the guesses on the schedule was based on how those teams did LAST year.

But once you hit 6-0... those predictions are out the door. Meaning, you have a 6 game head start. There are a LOT of coaches that ahve made the playoffs with an 11-5 record that didn't get a 6 game head start. They didn't have that advantage, yet still got there. They didn't get the starting job of a team because that team was doing well, or, the coach was doing well. They ALLLLLL had to start off with new players, rebuilding, and each team then had to learn a new 'system.'

9 weeks into the season, we have to stop trying to use that "new system" excuse for any lack of offense OR bad play on defense. No.. we aren't going to be a 'well oiled machine'...but that doesn't mean we can simply accept a decline in play or a drop in production. No one is going to expect 16-0..but when you lose to good teams, at LEAST show some signs of life.

Two (2) Marshall was MORE than prepared to be in the game by week one. Hell, Crabtree missed ALLL of OTs, preason, and the first 6 weeks of the regular season and came in on game ONE after ending his hold-out and did fine and was up to speed. Goes to show that this hype of "needing all of OTs and pre-season to get in sync with the QB and learn the playbook" is junk. We saw Edwards switch teams and produce for his new team the first week he was there. Marshall was more than prepared enough and if it wasn't for Marshall in this line-up, the offense would be in real crap.

How is it that Royal is in the slump? Seems to me that it might not be Royal that is in the slump.

Three (3) This comparing KO's 4th season in the NFL to Brady's rookie year... is ridiculous. Thats the same junk we hear when people were comparing Jake Plummer's first year with the Broncos to Elways first year with the Broncos.

BTW... Brady's first or second or third or fourth year in the NFL, wasn't using McDaniel's offensive system. McDaniels wasn't officially the OC until 2006 (Brady's 6th season)..... so please, lets not keep saying that KO is ahead of ANY curve. Brady's 2nd year in the system was 2006 or 2007 (depending how you want to look at it or what you believe). Lets also quit trying to say that Brady has some kind of weak arm. Thats absurd in itself.

[Cugel]

I'm not in Dove Valley for the team meetings Northman, so my opinion is based on pure speculation. It's just very hard for me to believe that all of the first 8 teams we played were gameplanned for the short passing game and not stretching the D because of their defenses. I believe that it's because Orton's weakness is throwing the long ball. Therefore, the short game gave us the best chance to limit interceptions and win, regardless of the opponent. While Simms no doubt looked like a deer in the headlights last game, he does have a stronger arm than Orton, and can buy more time with his legs. I'm hoping that a week of practice with the starters will help prepare him to play better this week, and give the Broncos a chance to change the gameplan up. San Diego's defense is average at best.

Brandon Marshall is in the Dove Valley meetings, so I will have to take his word for it that the game plan was to exploit the D with the long ball finally. Whatever the case may be, I'd like to see him get some opportunities to make a play on the deep ball, whether he is covered or not. I'll take my chances with Brandon and any corner in the league on a jump ball with one on one coverage. If nothing else, it will keep the defense honest, and make them stop cheating up to play the short passing lanes.

I think that tomorrow will tell us a lot about Simms and whether he is worth keeping around for the second year of his contract.

There's no need for speculation. We have the entire Kyle Orton career to point out that he doesn't have a great arm. He can throw short passes out to about 15 yards with velocity and accuracy. He's also smart and generally (until the last 3 games) doesn't make stupid plays with the ball.

The Broncos passing game is based on the short-to-medium passes because that's they way it's designed. But, the difference between Kyle Orton and Tom Brady is that defenses respect Brady going deep on them and thus they can't cheat up to the line. But, they don't respect Orton's arm, so they cheat and fill the box with 8 defenders.


There's nothing you can do about that except throw the ball deep and hope to make them pay. If you can, then you force the defense to back off and double-team Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal deep downfield.

That prevents them from stuffing the box. It also clears out the underneath area for the TE and RB coming out of the backfield. (ex: S.D.'s Antonio Gates is MUCH more effective when Vincent Jackson is drawing double-teams).

It also opens up the running game and the play-action pass. When you have all those things going for you the defense doesn't know what's coming! You can score a lot of points and have a lot of long drives that way as Cutler proved last year!

If you have a great defense the way the Broncos were playing up till the Ravens game, then you can win with that conservative offense and generating defensive turnovers and then take advantage of the short field.

That's what the Broncos did for 6 weeks (plus a tremendous amount of luck to win 2 games).

But, the defensive personnel on this team is NOT comparable to the 2000 Ravens which is why it's no surprise the defense isn't playing like them anymore. :coffee:

IT was always a question whether the offense could pick up the slack when the defense faltered. Well it's no longer a question. It can't. We have the last 3 games to prove that, and after this week we'll have the last FIVE games to prove it.

Because I sure don't foresee an offensive explosion against the Chargers or Giants this week!

This team has fallen apart. It remains to be seen whether they can put it together at all.

The defense is NOT young. They are old and visibly wearing down in games. That happens when your key personnel are all over 32 years old.

The offense is not strong enough to win when the defense falters. If the other team scores 21 points and has a decent defense like the Ravens, Steelers or Colts, you can pretty much expect a loss.

If you run into an elite QB like Rivers or Eli Manning who can light it up and puts a lot of pressure on your defense, you can pretty much expect a loss. Denver can't compete with teams like that (although the Giants defense is vulnerable so the Broncos can hope to score some points on them -- the only question is whether the Broncos OFFENSE can keep up with Eli Manning).

[Cugel]

folks it is unreasonable to think with all the changes on this team that they would be running like a well oiled machine from day one.. NEW schemes require everyone to KNOW it beofre the play it.

Sorry JR, but that's what's known as "knocking down a straw-man."

You would expect the team to show some signs of life the last 3 weeks. They haven't.

That was a VERY BAD team in the Washington Redskins that whipped the Broncos like a stray dog last week! They SUCK! Bad.

They will be lucky to win 2 more games this season. The Broncos game was probably going to be their best game of the season. :coffee:

The defense is wearing down, the offense has totally fallen apart. The starting QB is injured and out. The backup QB is looking like a guy who hasn't started since 2005.

Hell they might do just as well with Bandstater out there! :coffee:

If there was ever a team ready to fall totally off a cliff this Broncos team is it.

They face TWO tough games over a period of 4 days and will probably be 6-5 and dead as Marley's ghost by the end of the week. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

as I said in another thread it is to early to say if KO is the long term solution..

this team has:


31 new players on it over the 2008 roster..

9 new starters on defense.

brand new scheme on Defense complete overhaul on personnel and switched to 3-4..

brand new scheme on Offense that everyone except Josh and Gaffney had to learn from scratch..

marshall dicked around till the season started was unprepared for the season and into it by 2-3 games....

Eddie royal is in a sophomore slump..

our RB's have had fumbleitis

we have yet to ulitilize one of our best O weapson from last year.. hillis..



folks it is unreasonable to think with all the changes on this team that they would be running like a well oiled machine from day one.. NEW schemes require everyone to KNOW it beofre the play it.. they need to not only be comfortable with it but trust the other 10 players on the field are also..

even then knowing it and everything being automatic and not thinking about what they are doing or what the guy next to him is doing is not going to come over night.. it is going to take time for the OLINE to move as one, to pick up the blitzers without THINKING about it.. no amount of practice can make this smooth at GAME pace.. when everyone is on the same page mentally and not thinking about what is happening then

I believe that with a few exceptions the players we have will be starters for a long time.. who was Brady before he knew the system.. he does not have a huge arm but he does have the time in place to KNOW the timing of his receivers and he is a great field general.. I think KO has the same potential.. but we have to give him the time to learn it and everyone else the time to learn it also..

BTW Brady was quoted as saying it took him about 3 years to master the scheme..his first year with the Pats he had a 42.4 rating and a 33.3% completion record.. his second year 86.5 and 63.9. about what KO is doing 91.1 and 63.1.. so I guess KO is a tad farther ahead of Brady's second year in the system..


I'm calling you out on this one JR. You're taking Brady's stats from his first season in which he played in a small part of one game and attempted a whole 3 passes. He was also a rookie. Are you kidding me with this?

Even if you want to argue his second year stats compared to Orton's first year stats in this system, it's apples and oranges considering the fact that Brady was in his second year in the NFL, his first one as a starter, and Orton is in his 5th season with plenty of experience as a starter.

Come on JR. You're better than this.

YOU missed the second year stats I added.. and yes they would be much more relevant.. even considering ortons 3 actual years playing in the NFL.. during that time frame he had 33 starts..

http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

Yet this is indeed Orton's first year inside a really different scheme..

that was the comparison I was getting at.. going from a God only Knows kind of Offense to perhaps the most sophisticated one in the NFL..

Yes Brady only played a few snaps in his first year.. but he did have the chance to set and watch Bledso play in the scheme and had two training camps to "get it".. before he was thrown to the wolves.. so while it is not the same as starting in the NFL for the "give" it to the RB bears offense it is not like playing in the NE scheme either..

does that make sense..

[T.K.O.]

There's no need for speculation. We have the entire Kyle Orton career to point out that he doesn't have a great arm.










Because I sure don't foresee an offensive explosion against the Chargers or Giants this week!

This team has fallen apart. It remains to be seen whether they can put it together at all.



If you run into an elite QB like Rivers or Eli Manning who can light it up and puts a lot of pressure on your defense, you can pretty much expect a loss. Denver can't compete with teams like that (although the Giants defense is vulnerable so the Broncos can hope to score some points on them -- the only question is whether the Broncos OFFENSE can keep up with Eli Manning).

did you miss the first meeting between the broncos and chargers ?.......brady? romo ?
if the broncos show up and play with passion they can "compete" with any team in the league !

[Lonestar]

Sorry JR, but that's what's known as "knocking down a straw-man."

You would expect the team to show some signs of life the last 3 weeks. They haven't.

That was a VERY BAD team in the Washington Redskins that whipped the Broncos like a stray dog last week! They SUCK! Bad.

They will be lucky to win 2 more games this season. The Broncos game was probably going to be their best game of the season. :coffee:

The defense is wearing down, the offense has totally fallen apart. The starting QB is injured and out. The backup QB is looking like a guy who hasn't started since 2005.

Hell they might do just as well with Bandstater out there! :coffee:

If there was ever a team ready to fall totally off a cliff this Broncos team is it.

They face TWO tough games over a period of 4 days and will probably be 6-5 and dead as Marley's ghost by the end of the week. :coffee:


your probably correct about losing the next two games both teams with better manpower over all one with a questionable coach norv..

I have never said this is a play off team although perhaps when they were on the win streak I did get my hopes up..

I said when the season started I saw them winning 4-6 games all year MAYBE 7-9 (so I'm pretty happy camper right now) and thought they would win most of them down the stretch as folks "got" the schemes.. I saw them starting 0-4 and was surprised that we won them..

All I was looking for was not losing at HOME, not getting our asses kicked like in the past few years, being competitive in all games even if we lost them.. and not losing every trap game we saw on the schedule..

so far I've been pretty damned please with what I have seen..


a Defensive front 7 that is playing above their heads considering the DL..

an Offense that is learning a new scheme from the ground up.


is Orton the long term guy I'm not sure and YES I think that they will suck it up if he does not play..

nowhere will you find me saying that we are a Superbowl team like some thought.. would have loved to see it but we STILL have weak spots on this team.. I just do not see Orton as one of them.. I think he will be a damned fine QB in this scheme down the road.. not a Brady but someone that can win a hell of a lot of games.. that is my opinion form what I have seen so far this year.. but until we can find another manning or Brady I'll be happy with him..

if you do not want to see/understand what I have written OK by me we will have to agree to disagree..

[topscribe]

Orton is in his 5th season .

Come on JR. You're better than this.

Two years experience actually playing . . .

-----

[LRtagger]

If it makes you all feel any better, Schefter is the only analyst on ESPN picking Denver to win. He has been pretty spot on this year with Denver and was about the only expert that picked Washington last week.

[topscribe]

Top, no one is saying that Orton can not manage to fling a football 60 plus yards in the air. And yes he did manage to get the ball to Marshall on two different plays last week - one of which Marshall practically had to stop and wait for the ball to get there.

That ability, however, DOES NOT MAKE HIM A DEEP BALL THREAT and you really need to stop beating that drum. Orton does not have the arm to consistently connect with a receiver, in-stride, with accuracy, in coverage when said receiver is 25 plus yards beyond the line of scrimage. He does manage to do all of that within 20 yards of the LOS and does so impressively with a ton of zip on the ball.

Go back and look at the first touch down to Marshall from last week. Orton had to take a running start to heave the ball down there. True deep ball quartebacks make that same throw simply planting and pushing off.

Two-different things, entirely. It is not bashing Orton, it is simply being pragmatic about his capabilities.

See, that is something you are completely guessing about. Orton hasn't
passed that much downfield, and when he has, he has been on target.

Go back and take a look at the first touchdown to Marshall last week. I just
went back and reviewed again for about the twentieth time. Orton planted his
feet and threw the ball. He did not have a running start. That he had a running
start is absolutely false. Moreover, Orton threw the ball exactly where he
should have. Marshall was already at the goal line when the ball came down
There was no defender within three yards of him. For Orton to try to
connect with Marshall at full stride there would have been foolish. Marshall
was already there. Were I the QB, I would have aimed for the goal line, and,
behold, that's where it came down.

Here, now you watch: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81432f3c/Orton-goes-deep


Now take a look at this play (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d81433459/WK-10-Can-t-Miss-Play-Denver-deja-vu). This one went 55 yards in the air. (The other
one went 53.). Look at it real close. I mean really, really close. Did Orton
have to take a running start to throw it? Look at it again to make sure. Oh,
did you notice, by the way, that Marshall caught it in stride? Of course, this
time he wasn't at the goal line, so Orton had to do it that way.

Now, I have a question: If that is all the distance Orton could manage on
those passes, how in the hell did he get the ball 65 yards in the air in the
Hail Mary pass against NE?

Now, of course, you and other peerless experts on this board insist Orton is
not a threat deep. Tell that to the Steelers' and Ravens' safeties, who Orton
and McDaniels said were playing deep at times. If they weren't concerned
about the deep ball,what were they doing playing deep?

Finally, do not tell me what I need to post or stop posting. If you don't like it,
don't read it. But do not tell me what to do. As long as there are posters such
as you typing out falsehoods, I will type out the corrections to them. You are
not going to get your way there if I'm around . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Very well said Law Dog.

No, that was not well said.

-----

[Ziggy]

Two years experience actually playing . . .

-----

So, do you in any way think that Orton will become comparible to Tom Brady next season? I don't. Orton is a serviceable starter, and a decent system QB. We might disagree on this Top, but I just don't think that he will ever be a championship caliber QB. If McD thinks he will be, then I'm sure he'll be resigned to a long term contract when the season is over. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on Orton being signed for a 1 or 2 year extension at the most, or a longer contract that is voidable by the team at little to no penalty. Time will tell.

[topscribe]

So, do you in any way think that Orton will become comparible to Tom Brady next season? I don't. Orton is a serviceable starter, and a decent system QB. We might disagree on this Top, but I just don't think that he will ever be a championship caliber QB. If McD thinks he will be, then I'm sure he'll be resigned to a long term contract when the season is over. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on Orton being signed for a 1 or 2 year extension at the most, or a longer contract that is voidable by the team at little to no penalty. Time will tell.

Oh, now we're going into speculation? I have no clue about next year. So I will
have to rely on your crystal ball and tea leaves.

I am more concerned with what has happened. What has happened has been
reported falsely here. That is what I'm concerned about.

-----

[slim]

I love the positive attitude.

We could have used more of that around here in the offseason.

:salute:

[Ziggy]

Oh, now we're going into speculation? I have no clue about next year. So I will
have to rely on your crystal ball and tea leaves.

I am more concerned with what has happened. What has happened has been
reported falsely here. That is what I'm concerned about.

-----

I hate to tell you this Top, but most of what message boards are is speculation and opinion. You can claim crystal ball and tea leaves all you want. If you are going to claim that Orton could be a stud QB like Brady in a year or two, or arguing against someone's opinion that he won't be, are you not doing the exact same thing?

[topscribe]

I hate to tell you this Top, but most of what message boards are is speculation and opinion. You can claim crystal ball and tea leaves all you want. If you are going to claim that Orton could be a stud QB like Brady in a year or two, or arguing against someone's opinion that he won't be, are you not doing the exact same thing?

Is that what it appears to you? Please, I implore you, scour my posts and find
where I said Orton "could be a stud QB like Brady," then come back to me with
it. I have never said anything of the sort.

I have talked only about what Orton has done. Does that constitute claiming
what Orton will be? That is the exact same thing? :confused:

-----

[slim]

Simmer down old man.

[Shazam!]

I love the positive attitude.

We could have used more of that around here in the offseason.

The only thing that is positive to some is that Orton is not playing. Some think Simms is the magic man.

The grass is always greener.

I miss Jake Plummer. Oh, the days.

[bcbronc]

Here, now you watch: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009111507/2009/REG10/broncos@redskins#tab:watch


Now take a look at this play (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009111507/2009/REG10/broncos@redskins#tab:watch). This one went 55 yards in the air. (The other
one went 53.). Look at it real close. I mean really, really close. Did Orton
have to take a running start to throw it? Look at it again to make sure. Oh,
did you notice, by the way, that Marshall caught it in stride? Of course, this
time he wasn't at the goal line, so Orton had to do it that way.

Now, I have a question: If that is all the distance Orton could manage on
those passes, how in the hell did he get the ball 65 yards in the air in the
Hail Mary pass against NE?

Now, of course, you and other peerless experts on this board insist Orton is
not a threat deep. Tell that to the Steelers' and Ravens' safeties, who Orton
and McDaniels said were playing deep at times. If they weren't concerned
about the deep ball,what were they doing playing deep?

Finally, do not tell me what I need to post or stop posting. If you don't like it,
don't read it. But do not tell me what to do. As long as there are posters such
as you typing out falsehoods, I will type out the corrections to them. You are
not going to get your way there if I'm around . . .

-----

now go re-watch the first video you posted, and watch the third highlight. the one where Royal is wide open by about 10 yards and Orton misses him. that's the point, in the NFL hitting 2 out of 3 WIDE OPEN receivers (and not just wide open by a stride, but wide open by a first down or more) is not good enough. the margin of error in this league is simply too small to miss on chances like that, and if Orton didn't miss Royal on that play we probably cruise to an easy victory.

now I'm not hating on Orton; he's done fine so far this season. But he doesn't throw a good long ball, and never has. probably never will. who cares if the ball travels 65 yards in the air if it doesn't come down somewhere that gives your intended receiver a chance at catching it. last time I checked, the ones that were caught were the only ones that counted. ;)

[Ziggy]

Is that what it appears to you? Please, I implore you, scour my posts and find
where I said Orton "could be a stud QB like Brady," then come back to me with
it. I have never said anything of the sort.

I have talked only about what Orton has done. Does that constitute claiming
what Orton will be? That is the exact same thing? :confused:

-----

There's only one thing I can say to that Top. "Yes sir, I'll be shutting up now."

[topscribe]

now go re-watch the first video you posted, and watch the third highlight. the one where Royal is wide open by about 10 yards and Orton misses him. that's the point, in the NFL hitting 2 out of 3 WIDE OPEN receivers (and not just wide open by a stride, but wide open by a first down or more) is not good enough. the margin of error in this league is simply too small to miss on chances like that, and if Orton didn't miss Royal on that play we probably cruise to an easy victory.

now I'm not hating on Orton; he's done fine so far this season. But he doesn't throw a good long ball, and never has. probably never will. who cares if the ball travels 65 yards in the air if it doesn't come down somewhere that gives your intended receiver a chance at catching it. last time I checked, the ones that were caught were the only ones that counted. ;)

Actually, just to point out your exaggeration, Royal was open by five yards,
not ten. But that is not a factor in the play.

Nonetheless, that gives Orton a 67% completion ratio passing deep. Did you
ever think of that? Orton throws three passes and scores 14 points (well, 12,
actually, since he did not score the extra points).

Damn. Stop making my argument something it is not. Alllllllllll I said was that
Orton made two good throws. That is allllllllll I said. But you and others are
trying to make me appear to say he's the second coming of Johnny Unitas.
Please just read my posts as they are. What the hell do I have to do?

-----

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE]Actually, just to point out your exaggeration, Royal was open by five yards,
not ten. But that is not a factor in the play.

in the NFL 5 yards open = 10 yards open = WIDE open. you can't miss that throw.



Nonetheless, that gives Orton a 67% completion ratio passing deep. Did you
ever think of that? Orton throws three passes and scores 14 points (well, 12,
actually, since he did not score the extra points).

did you ever think that that doesn't give Orton a 67% completion ratio passing deep unless those were the only 3 deep passes he threw? if Orton is completing 2 of 3 down the field when his man is actually covered, no one is complaining about his arm.

did you notice we ended the game with 17 points? Orton let the Redskins defense get away with a mistake. Those mistakes are why Washington is a bad team. if you don't capitalize on them, they are as good as anyone else. This isn't something Orton or McDaniels wouldn't agree 100 % with.


Damn. Stop making my argument something it is not. Alllllllllll I said was that
Orton made two good throws. That is allllllllll I said. But you and others are
trying to make me appear to say he's the second coming of Johnny Unitas.
Please just read my posts as they are. What the hell do I have to do?

-----

dude, you're the only one making this an argument. All I said is that Orton made a really bad throw, which supports that he throws an inconsistent long ball. you disagree because he completed 2/3 against zero coverage. I never said you said he reminded you of Johnny Unitas, I only gave my opinion on the topic.

top, do you feel Orton's arm can consistently split deep safeties? I don't. but I'm not questioning Orton's zip--he can throw lasers, but only 20-25 yards down the field.

Or do you feel he can consistently drop a 40+ yard bomb over a WRs shoulder "where only he can catch it"? again, I don't. but I'm not questioning his accuracy, because under 20 yards or so, he can hit the tiny holes.

bottom line with Orton, he can't make every throw. he simply can't. but he's still a solid NFL starting quarterback that wins with intelligence and good decisions. We can win games with him. But if he can't do better than 2 of 3 against broken coverage down the field, then he's not the long term answer.

[topscribe]

[QUOTE=topscribe;827089]

in the NFL 5 yards open = 10 yards open = WIDE open. you can't miss that throw.



did you ever think that that doesn't give Orton a 67% completion ratio passing deep unless those were the only 3 deep passes he threw? if Orton is completing 2 of 3 down the field when his man is actually covered, no one is complaining about his arm.

did you notice we ended the game with 17 points? Orton let the Redskins defense get away with a mistake. Those mistakes are why Washington is a bad team. if you don't capitalize on them, they are as good as anyone else. This isn't something Orton or McDaniels wouldn't agree 100 % with.



dude, you're the only one making this an argument. All I said is that Orton made a really bad throw, which supports that he throws an inconsistent long ball. you disagree because he completed 2/3 against zero coverage. I never said you said he reminded you of Johnny Unitas, I only gave my opinion on the topic.

top, do you feel Orton's arm can consistently split deep safeties? I don't. but I'm not questioning Orton's zip--he can throw lasers, but only 20-25 yards down the field.

Or do you feel he can consistently drop a 40+ yard bomb over a WRs shoulder "where only he can catch it"? again, I don't. but I'm not questioning his accuracy, because under 20 yards or so, he can hit the tiny holes.

bottom line with Orton, he can't make every throw. he simply can't. but he's still a solid NFL starting quarterback that wins with intelligence and good decisions. We can win games with him. But if he can't do better than 2 of 3 against broken coverage down the field, then he's not the long term answer.

Why don't you stop trying to make me say what I didn't say?

All I said is Orton made two good throws.

And I'm not dude.

-----

[topscribe]

There's only one thing I can say to that Top. "Yes sir, I'll be shutting up now."

I'm not saying Orton is another John Elway in throwing downfield. And I'm not
saying that his tosses in the game in question prove he is particularly good at it.

However, I do take exception with those (not necessarily you) who seem to be
using the logic that the receiver was wide open, so Orton's not good at throwing
deep.

I would accept the argument that, because the receiver was wide open, the
jury is still out. But what I'm getting is, "he's not good at it, and he'll never be
good at it."

Bottom line is, it doesn't matter. The fact is, Orton threw three downfield and
connected on two of them for TDs. Therefore, he served notice that he can
and will do it. That is what the Broncos needed defenses to know. Well, they
should know it now . . .

-----

[sneakers]

Simms has no spleen.....we are used to having quarterbacks with ineffective/missing internal organs.

(the pancreas makes insulin)
(low insulin levels makes someone diabetic)
(Jay Cutler is diabetic)
(Jay Cutler used to be a Bronco quarterback)

[WARHORSE]

After watching Simms last week, the only thing good about him starting in my view is that Brandstater will be coming off the bench to relieve him in case of injury............and not Simms.:coffee:


Get the kids feet wet a little. Lets see what he does under live fire.

[rcsodak]

I think we all would like to see more down the field action. Hopefully we can do more things with Simms in there but im not buying in until i can see it first hand. I only say this because Jay has a lot of talent and potential but in his 4th year is still not improving his mechanics and game study. We shall see if Simms puts the time in to take advantage of the opportunity given to him. :salute:

In case ya'll didn't realize, Cutler is no longer on the team.

Just ask claymore..... :coffee:

[rcsodak]

The safeties for Baltimore and Pitt were NOT Playing deeper than any other safties.

Don't believe that's what Top said. But we all know how you like to take quotes out of context to spin to your liking...


...don't we. :coffee:


McDaniels and Orton both said that Baltimore and Pittsburgh were playing
their safeties deep at times.

[rcsodak]

Top, no one is saying that Orton can not manage to fling a football 60 plus yards in the air. And yes he did manage to get the ball to Marshall on two different plays last week - one of which Marshall practically had to stop and wait for the ball to get there.

That ability, however, DOES NOT MAKE HIM A DEEP BALL THREAT and you really need to stop beating that drum. Orton does not have the arm to consistently connect with a receiver, in-stride, with accuracy, in coverage when said receiver is 25 plus yards beyond the line of scrimage. He does manage to do all of that within 20 yards of the LOS and does so impressively with a ton of zip on the ball.

Go back and look at the first touch down to Marshall from last week. Orton had to take a running start to heave the ball down there. True deep ball quartebacks make that same throw simply planting and pushing off.

Two-different things, entirely. It is not bashing Orton, it is simply being pragmatic about his capabilities.

Law, gonna have to argue with ya....

Tell me, if a player is 10yds ahead of his defender, and he's getting close to the endzone line, just WHERE, preytell, do you throw the ball to?

I'd venture to say, THE ENDZONE line.

And why do you not include his 2nd, PERFECTLY placed, in-stride TD pass to Bmarsh?

I think you're all falling into this debate way too easily.

Orton may not have Elway's arm, but he DOES have an NFL arm. Anything more is just for show, imho.

[rcsodak]

The offense is not strong enough to win when the defense falters. If the other team scores 21 points and has a decent defense like the Ravens, Steelers or Colts, you can pretty much expect a loss.

If you run into an elite QB like Rivers or Eli Manning who can light it up and puts a lot of pressure on your defense, you can pretty much expect a loss. Denver can't compete with teams like that (although the Giants defense is vulnerable so the Broncos can hope to score some points on them -- the only question is whether the Broncos OFFENSE can keep up with Eli Manning).

LMAO! You're putting the Colts' defense in the same box as the Ravens and Steelers.....

:lol:

And E Manning is NOT having an "elite" year, injured or not.

I think you should change your name, the "the fallen bronco", or "the anti-bronco".

I honestly cannot remember a positive post coming from your fingertips.

ANYBODY?

HUH?

:tsk:

[rcsodak]

Sorry JR, but that's what's known as "knocking down a straw-man."

You would expect the team to show some signs of life the last 3 weeks. They haven't.

That was a VERY BAD team in the Washington Redskins that whipped the Broncos like a stray dog last week! They SUCK! Bad.

They will be lucky to win 2 more games this season. The Broncos game was probably going to be their best game of the season. :coffee:

The defense is wearing down, the offense has totally fallen apart. The starting QB is injured and out. The backup QB is looking like a guy who hasn't started since 2005.

Hell they might do just as well with Bandstater out there! :coffee:

If there was ever a team ready to fall totally off a cliff this Broncos team is it.

They face TWO tough games over a period of 4 days and will probably be 6-5 and dead as Marley's ghost by the end of the week. :coffee:

Ok....I'm OFFICIALLY saving this post. So when Denver has bested your weak-ass doom/gloom forecast, I'll resurrect it for OUR pleasure.

[rcsodak]

YOU missed the second year stats I added.. and yes they would be much more relevant.. even considering ortons 3 actual years playing in the NFL.. during that time frame he had 33 starts..

http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

Yet this is indeed Orton's first year inside a really different scheme..

that was the comparison I was getting at.. going from a God only Knows kind of Offense to perhaps the most sophisticated one in the NFL..

Yes Brady only played a few snaps in his first year.. but he did have the chance to set and watch Bledso play in the scheme and had two training camps to "get it".. before he was thrown to the wolves.. so while it is not the same as starting in the NFL for the "give" it to the RB bears offense it is not like playing in the NE scheme either..

does that make sense..

Well...if you take what Rav said into account, then thats EASILY enough time for Brady to "grasp it". ;)

Hell, Crabtree missed ALLL of OTs, preason, and the first 6 weeks of the regular season and came in on game ONE after ending his hold-out and did fine and was up to speed. Goes to show that this hype of "needing all of OTs and pre-season to get in sync with the QB and learn the playbook" is junk. We saw Edwards switch teams and produce for his new team the first week he was there.

[rcsodak]

now go re-watch the first video you posted, and watch the third highlight. the one where Royal is wide open by about 10 yards and Orton misses him. that's the point, in the NFL hitting 2 out of 3 WIDE OPEN receivers (and not just wide open by a stride, but wide open by a first down or more) is not good enough. the margin of error in this league is simply too small to miss on chances like that, and if Orton didn't miss Royal on that play we probably cruise to an easy victory.

now I'm not hating on Orton; he's done fine so far this season. But he doesn't throw a good long ball, and never has. probably never will. who cares if the ball travels 65 yards in the air if it doesn't come down somewhere that gives your intended receiver a chance at catching it. last time I checked, the ones that were caught were the only ones that counted. ;)

Those canadian airwaves must be freaky.....

....because if you didn't see eddie slow down, then it's your eyes.

And SHOW us who completes 100% of their passes over 40yds. THAT, I'd like to see.

60% completion is about the norm for overall game management. I would ASSUME the longer balls are less likely to be completed than the dumpoff, no? :coffee:

2/3 = 66+%. Wow....whatdoyaknow...... :elefant:

[topscribe]

The safeties for Baltimore and Pitt were NOT Playing deeper than any other safties.

Right, Ravage. We all know that you know more that McDaniels and Orton.

After all, I only repeated what they said . . . :coffee:

-----

[rcsodak]

Oh crap! I just saw ELITE Roesthlisberger lead his WR too far on a 15 yd pass, and he was WIDE OPEN for a TD!!!

Well...there goes Big Ben from the ranks of Eliteness.... :coffee:

[bcbronc]

Those canadian airwaves must be freaky.....

....because if you didn't see eddie slow down, then it's your eyes.

And SHOW us who completes 100% of their passes over 40yds. THAT, I'd like to see.

60% completion is about the norm for overall game management. I would ASSUME the longer balls are less likely to be completed than the dumpoff, no? :coffee:

2/3 = 66+%. Wow....whatdoyaknow...... :elefant:

try to keep up, rc, you have me repeating myself: 2 out of 3 against coverage down the field would be great. 2 out of 3 against blown coverage--even if you now want to throw Royal under the bus--isn't good enough.

ask Orton, I guarantee you he'll agree with me.

but what-evs. Orton is the Broncos qb, so by default he can make every single play 100 % of the time (unless, of course, the WR "slows down"). hard to argue with that. :elefant:

[LawDog]

See, that is something you are completely guessing about. Orton hasn't
passed that much downfield, and when he has, he has been on target.

Go back and take a look at the first touchdown to Marshall last week. I just
went back and reviewed again for about the twentieth time. Orton planted his
feet and threw the ball. He did not have a running start. That he had a running
start is absolutely false. Moreover, Orton threw the ball exactly where he
should have. Marshall was already at the goal line when the ball came down
There was no defender within three yards of him. For Orton to try to
connect with Marshall at full stride there would have been foolish. Marshall
was already there. Were I the QB, I would have aimed for the goal line, and,
behold, that's where it came down.

Here, now you watch: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81432f3c/Orton-goes-deep


Now take a look at this play (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d81433459/WK-10-Can-t-Miss-Play-Denver-deja-vu). This one went 55 yards in the air. (The other
one went 53.). Look at it real close. I mean really, really close. Did Orton
have to take a running start to throw it? Look at it again to make sure. Oh,
did you notice, by the way, that Marshall caught it in stride? Of course, this
time he wasn't at the goal line, so Orton had to do it that way.

Now, I have a question: If that is all the distance Orton could manage on
those passes, how in the hell did he get the ball 65 yards in the air in the
Hail Mary pass against NE?

Now, of course, you and other peerless experts on this board insist Orton is
not a threat deep. Tell that to the Steelers' and Ravens' safeties, who Orton
and McDaniels said were playing deep at times. If they weren't concerned
about the deep ball,what were they doing playing deep?

Finally, do not tell me what I need to post or stop posting. If you don't like it,
don't read it. But do not tell me what to do. As long as there are posters such
as you typing out falsehoods, I will type out the corrections to them. You are
not going to get your way there if I'm around . . .

-----

I watched 'em both about a dozen times. Same conclusion, Orton did not hit Marshall in-stride, in-coverage, with accurate placement. If Marshall does not beat coverage (i.e. WIDE open) neither one of those are touchdowns and at least one of them might have been a pick.

Po-tay-to / Po-tah-to. I think you are dead wrong on Orton as a deep threat, I certainly was not posting falsehoods (liar, liar, really?), and you are free to keep beating the drum about Orton as much as you like - you've never needed my permission 'bout that.

Oh, and not a running start per se, but he does take a few steps into it rather than planting and pushing off - which was my point - but I'm probably lying about that too. Whatever.

[topscribe]

I watched 'em both about a dozen times. Same conclusion, Orton did not hit Marshall in-stride, in-coverage, with accurate placement. If Marshall does not beat coverage (i.e. WIDE open) neither one of those are touchdowns and at least one of them might have been a pick.

Po-tay-to / Po-tah-to. I think you are dead wrong on Orton as a deep threat, I certainly was not posting falsehoods (liar, liar, really?), and you are free to keep beating the drum about Orton as much as you like - you've never needed my permission 'bout that.

Oh, and not a running start per se, but he does take a few steps into it rather than planting and pushing off - which was my point - but I'm probably lying about that too. Whatever.

How you have represented what I have said have been lies.

Therefore, I don't give a shit what you have had to say beyond that . . .

-----

[LawDog]

Law, gonna have to argue with ya....

Tell me, if a player is 10yds ahead of his defender, and he's getting close to the endzone line, just WHERE, preytell, do you throw the ball to?

I'd venture to say, THE ENDZONE line.

And why do you not include his 2nd, PERFECTLY placed, in-stride TD pass to Bmarsh?

I think you're all falling into this debate way too easily.

Orton may not have Elway's arm, but he DOES have an NFL arm. Anything more is just for show, imho.

I gotta disagree, the ball came down to the inside which is where the closest defender was -- a non-factor really since Marshall had him beat bad, but still -- and Marshall had to pull up and turn to the side to catch it. In coverage that ball has to be thrown so it drops over the outside shoulder, away from the defender, and in front of the receiver. That is how a true deep threat QB does it, and Orton has not done it in a game this season - therefore I say that, to date, he is not a deep threat. I'd hate to have to dig up film of Rivers doing what I'm talking about, but I will if forced. Hopefully we don't have to watch him do it in an hour or so.

GO BRONCOS!!!!!!

[topscribe]

I gotta disagree, the ball came down to the inside which is where the closest defender was -- a non-factor really since Marshall had him beat bad, but still -- and Marshall had to pull up and turn to the side to catch it. In coverage that ball has to be thrown so it drops over the outside shoulder, away from the defender, and in front of the receiver. That is how a true deep threat QB does it, and Orton has not done it in a game this season - therefore I say that, to date, he is not a deep threat. I'd hate to have to dig up film of Rivers doing what I'm talking about, but I will if forced. Hopefully we don't have to watch him do it in an hour or so.

GO BRONCOS!!!!!!

Away from what defender?

-----

[LawDog]

How you have represented what I have said have been lies.

Therefore, I don't give a shit what you have had to say beyond that . . .

-----

Put on your reading glasses, Top, I was saying that you accused me of posting "falsehoods".

Nice language, grumpy...

[LawDog]

Away from what defender?

-----

Again, reading glasses, the defender that is to Marshall's left, the one he has beat. Good Grief, man.

[topscribe]

Again, reading glasses, the defender that is to Marshall's left, the one he has beat. Good Grief, man.

Oh yes, the defender who is almost in the picture .

I see . . . :coffee:

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I'm going to go write a check to a Czech.

[LawDog]

Oh yes, the defender who is almost in the picture .

I see . . . :coffee:

-----

Yeah, that one, and I made it perfectly clear that he was a non-factor in my post...

Gotta go warm up my lucky couch.

GO BRONCOS!!!

[Shazam!]

To all the people complaining about Orton not hitting Marshall in stride...

In Super Bowl XXXIII, Elway did not hit Rod Smith in stride for the 82 yd TD pass. Smith had to adjust under the ball.

I guess Elway sucks too.

And no, I'm not comparing the two.

[topscribe]

Yeah, that one, and I made it perfectly clear that he was a non-factor in my post...

Gotta go warm up my lucky couch.

GO BRONCOS!!!

Well, you see, you said Orton should have thrown to the shoulder away from
the defender. Right?

My point is, when the defender isn't in the same time zone as the receiver, what
does it matter which shoulder gets the pass? If the receiver is running along
with the defender, yes, pass to the other shoulder.

However, the circumstances of the play required only that Orton get the pass
to Marshall where Marshall can catch it. It's much the same as the first deep
pass: don't take unnecessary chances. With the first one, make damn sure
the pass is where the receiver will catch it. With the second one, make damn
sure it is where the receiver will catch it. That's what happened, isn't it?

Now, regarding this "deep threat" stuff, if a QB can get the pass down there,
then he is, by default, a deep threat. Orton demonstrated he can get it down
there. That is a no-brainer, isn't it?

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Now, regarding this "deep threat" stuff, if a QB can get the pass down there,
then he is, by default, a deep threat. Orton demonstrated he can get it down
there. That is a no-brainer, isn't it?

-----

No, he is not by deep threat by default. A quarterback who has a strong arm who can consistently get the ball down field and make plays would be a deep threat. Most quarterbacks, if not all, have the ability to make a play downfield from time to time. (At least the ones that see the field.) Otherwise, they wouldn't be playing in the NFL. So no, I think you're using a faulty line of thinking.

[topscribe]

No, he is not by deep threat by default. A quarterback who has a strong arm who can consistently get the ball down field and make plays would be a deep threat. Most quarterbacks, if not all, have the ability to make a play downfield from time to time. (At least the ones that see the field.) Otherwise, they wouldn't be playing in the NFL. So no, I think you're using a faulty line of thinking.

You are going according to your definition. I am going according to mine.

A QB who can get the ball deep, and has delivered the ball deep, will deliver the ball deep.

Were I a DC, that would be enough for me . . .

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You are going according to your definition. I am going according to mine.

A QB who can get the ball deep, and has delivered the ball deep, will deliver the ball deep.

Were I a DC, that would be enough for me . . .

-----

If I were a defensive coordinator, and saw tape of a quarterback who can only get the ball down the field on occasion, and for the majority of the season has not shown any ability there consistently, I probably wouldn't be too worried about it. (As evident of game plans by other DC all season long.)

[topscribe]

If I were a defensive coordinator, and saw tape of a quarterback who can only get the ball down the field on occasion, and for the majority of the season has not shown any ability there consistently, I probably wouldn't be too worried about it. (As evident of game plans by other DC all season long.)

Right. That is why, as McDaniels and Orton said, the Ravens and Steelers had their safeties deep at times . . .

*and so, we have once again gone full circle*

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Right. That is why, as McDaniels and Orton said, the Ravens and Steelers had their safeties deep at times . . .

-----

Yeah, at times. Because most times, Orton isn't going to make deep plays in coverage.

[topscribe]

Yeah, at times. Because most times, Orton isn't going to make deep plays in coverage.

Right. That would be stupid.

Something it took years for Favre to learn . . .

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Right. That would be stupid.

Something it took years for Favre to learn . . .

-----

Favre has an arm that he trusts a lot. He has always been a gunslinger. More often than not, he makes the play. He can do that. Kyle doesn't have that ability. Brett doesn't worry about the interceptions. He makes the plays when they are needed. If there is an inch to get the ball to a receiver, he'll take the risk. Kyle rarely won't, because he knows he cannot do it. Tale of two different quarterbacks.

[topscribe]

Favre has an arm that he trusts a lot. He has always been a gunslinger. More often than not, he makes the play. He can do that. Kyle doesn't have that ability. Brett doesn't worry about the interceptions. He makes the plays when they are needed. If there is an inch to get the ball to a receiver, he'll take the risk. Kyle rarely won't, because he knows he cannot do it. Tale of two different quarterbacks.

I can't argue with you on Favre. Due to my many years of rooting for him as a
Packer, he still holds a soft place in my heart. I've got to admit that . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

I will say this.

We all know I don't think Orton is a deep threat. We all know that I don't think Orton has a strong arm, and feel that Orton will make a good back-up in the NFL and nothing more than that.

BUT....

There was NOTHING wrong with the throw to Marshall. He was SOOOO wide open, that as a QB you simply put the ball in the open space where you do NOT miss the pass. No sense in trying to lead the WR, no sense trying to be precise. NO sense in putting more UMPh into the pass to go over his shoulder. PUT it in the space, LET the WR make the adjustments to get the pass...because trying to be precise on something THAT wide open is stupid. I can criticize Orton on a lot of things...but there was absolutely nothing wrong with that pass. I actually would have been MUCH more critical of him if he tried to lead Marshall on that play.

[Dean]

I thought that I'd go ahead and take a positive approach to Simms starting this Sunday with Orton injured. Now I know that this won't be taken well by some, but I am the way I am. What advantages can we look for? Simms is more mobile, and has a stronger arm. He has also had a full week to practice with the first team offense. This will give McD a chance to open up more of the playbook.

Don't be surprised to see a moving pocket, long throws, and a trick play or two. McD knows that this is the most important game of the season thus far, so I think he pulls out all the stops. I'll be looking for the deep pass once or twice in the first couple of drives. This should keep the defense from cheating up on the underneath routes, and open up some running lanes.

Also, look for either Eddie Royal or Brandon Stokely to have thier best game of the season. Without the threat of the deep pass up to this point, defenders have been playing the short passing zones and not having to worry about protecting against the big play.(Other than a couple of broken coverages by Washington.) BMarsh should get a couple of shots to make a play deep, and battle for the big play.

McDaniels has yet to pull out the no huddle offense,and this might be the week to do it. The Broncos D has been talking about getting back to the fundamentals and team defense that got them off to the 6-0 start. McBean returns, which should help shore up the run D. If the Broncos can get some consistant pressure on Rivers, it could be a long day for him and a very good day for Doom.

Most of the football 'experts' are counting the Broncos out of this game before they even take the field, saying that they have no chance. This is music to my ears, and brings back fond memories of the first 6 games of the season. Let's see if this team can throw another wrench in the plans of those who claim to know the game the best.

Regardless of how this game turns out, despite not having our starting QB, I can tell you that this team will not lie down like it did last season against the Chargers in the biggest game of the year. It will be a knock down drag out fight at Invesco on Sunday. I can't wait for this game to start.

Is this still your opinion? I am starting to wonder.

[Bronco Bible]

I thought that I'd go ahead and take a positive approach to Simms starting this Sunday with Orton injured. Now I know that this won't be taken well by some, but I am the way I am. What advantages can we look for? Simms is more mobile, and has a stronger arm. He has also had a full week to practice with the first team offense. This will give McD a chance to open up more of the playbook.

Don't be surprised to see a moving pocket, long throws, and a trick play or two. McD knows that this is the most important game of the season thus far, so I think he pulls out all the stops. I'll be looking for the deep pass once or twice in the first couple of drives. This should keep the defense from cheating up on the underneath routes, and open up some running lanes.

Also, look for either Eddie Royal or Brandon Stokely to have thier best game of the season. Without the threat of the deep pass up to this point, defenders have been playing the short passing zones and not having to worry about protecting against the big play.(Other than a couple of broken coverages by Washington.) BMarsh should get a couple of shots to make a play deep, and battle for the big play.

McDaniels has yet to pull out the no huddle offense,and this might be the week to do it. The Broncos D has been talking about getting back to the fundamentals and team defense that got them off to the 6-0 start. McBean returns, which should help shore up the run D. If the Broncos can get some consistant pressure on Rivers, it could be a long day for him and a very good day for Doom.

Most of the football 'experts' are counting the Broncos out of this game before they even take the field, saying that they have no chance. This is music to my ears, and brings back fond memories of the first 6 games of the season. Let's see if this team can throw another wrench in the plans of those who claim to know the game the best.

Regardless of how this game turns out, despite not having our starting QB, I can tell you that this team will not lie down like it did last season against the Chargers in the biggest game of the year. It will be a knock down drag out fight at Invesco on Sunday. I can't wait for this game to start.

The team layed down ziggy

[rcsodak]

Well, you see, you said Orton should have thrown to the shoulder away from
the defender. Right?

My point is, when the defender isn't in the same time zone as the receiver, what
does it matter which shoulder gets the pass? If the receiver is running along
with the defender, yes, pass to the other shoulder.

However, the circumstances of the play required only that Orton get the pass
to Marshall where Marshall can catch it. It's much the same as the first deep
pass: don't take unnecessary chances. With the first one, make damn sure
the pass is where the receiver will catch it. With the second one, make damn
sure it is where the receiver will catch it. That's what happened, isn't it?

Now, regarding this "deep threat" stuff, if a QB can get the pass down there,
then he is, by default, a deep threat. Orton demonstrated he can get it down
there. That is a no-brainer, isn't it?

-----

I see where BMarsh is altering his stance ALOT, when the ball is on the way to him, to where he catches it on his left. Is it just me or is it because of his injury from last year?
I brink this up because if might explain why passes are thrown to that side of him, and why he did the pirouette at the endzone?

Straws again.....:D

[rcsodak]

Yeah, at times. Because most times, Orton isn't going to make deep plays in coverage.

Surely not when the long ball isn't called by McD.....

...or if the WR isn't open.

Just because a qb has a 'deep arm', and throws it only to get picked, isn't reason to justify throwing it, agree?

I think we can all agree that Orton is smart enough that if he doesn't think he can complete a throw with a very good chance of it not getting picked, he is going to drop it off or throw it away.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that as long as the offense is still able to perform and score points while eating up the clock. Compare that to long incompletions, stopping the clock and killing drives, or worse....I'll take the former.

[bcbronc]

Surely not when the long ball isn't called by McD.....

...or if the WR isn't open.

Just because a qb has a 'deep arm', and throws it only to get picked, isn't reason to justify throwing it, agree?

I think we can all agree that Orton is smart enough that if he doesn't think he can complete a throw with a very good chance of it not getting picked, he is going to drop it off or throw it away.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that as long as the offense is still able to perform and score points while eating up the clock. Compare that to long incompletions, stopping the clock and killing drives, or worse....I'll take the former.

the problem is that defenses are cheating up and flooding the underneath stuff. the past few games the offense hasn't been "able to perform and score points while eating up the clock".

McDaniels was able to exploit that against the Redskins, but I don't think we'll see that kind of defense too often the rest of the season.

you are right about McDaniels not calling the long ball, but he certainly did in NE. what's different? Did McD decide to take it out of the playbook?

[rcsodak]

the problem is that defenses are cheating up and flooding the underneath stuff. the past few games the offense hasn't been "able to perform and score points while eating up the clock".

McDaniels was able to exploit that against the Redskins, but I don't think we'll see that kind of defense too often the rest of the season.

you are right about McDaniels not calling the long ball, but he certainly did in NE. what's different? Did McD decide to take it out of the playbook?

MAYBE he doesn't feel he has the wr's for it?

Or MAYBE he's calling safer calls because he doesn't yet have the NE offense/defense that's required, should they fall behind by making the chancier playcalling?

Unlike many here, I don't believe it all hinges on one player's arm, or perceived lack, thereof.

[topscribe]

the problem is that defenses are cheating up and flooding the underneath stuff. the past few games the offense hasn't been "able to perform and score points while eating up the clock".

McDaniels was able to exploit that against the Redskins, but I don't think we'll see that kind of defense too often the rest of the season.

you are right about McDaniels not calling the long ball, but he certainly did in NE. what's different? Did McD decide to take it out of the playbook?


After the Ravens game, Orton said they had a deep pass called a couple times,
but the safeties were playing deep at those times, so they didn't run them.

After the Steelers game, they again commented the safeties were playing
deep.

Once again, throwing into coverage would be a stupid move. I would think it
would not be necessary for me to state this, but alas, it apparently is . . .

-----