If...?

[lex]

If McFadden is still there at 6 and the Jets would be willing to trade the #6 for #12, Foxworth and Javon Walker (or a future 3rd or 2nd), would you do it and take McFadden considering it would leave all our current picks in tact?

[tubby]

Hell NO!

Nice thread title btw.

[lex]

Hell NO!

Nice thread title btw.

I think I would due to the fact that it would keep our picks in tact. If it was the 12, Walker, Foxworth combo it would allow us to get something out of guys we would eventually lose anyway. And it would give us a tough, explosive, durable game changing running back to take the heat of Cutler.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Yes, but I wouldn't draft McFadden with that 6th.

[tubby]

Plenty of backs available later in the draft.

[underrated29]

WELL, id say yes and no.

No, because i want us to keep walker, but if shanny is for sure going to trade him then yes this wouldnt be to bad. but i also dont think mcfadden is that good running throught traffic and pushing the pile. But....

Yes because he is pretty sick. Plus, i have seen very little footage of him running, so if he can make his own holes (instead running through large ones already there) and we can still keep our 2nd and such that would be awesome. Imo i would prefer to have stewart as our back. I just think he fits the mold better. But if Dmac turns out to be a combo of LT and reggie Bush, and not just bush I am all for it!!!

[G_Money]

McFadden is very impressive, but not the back for us.

~G

[Bronco4ever]

McFadden makes me swell up down below, but we have bigger fish to fry than our RB position. Phillips or Ellis in 08 please.

[topscribe]

The only way someone would give up that for Walker would be if he is healthy.
If Walker is healthy, he is an elite receiver, the complete package. Why then,
would the Broncos give up a proven elite player for one who might be . . . if
he doesn't bust?

In fact, why would they draft a RB at all in the first day, when they need
a DT/LB/safety so badly? I don't know . . . there might be a midget or two on
staff, but I don't think there are any mental midgets . . .

-----

[lex]

The only way someone would give up that for Walker would be if he is healthy.
If Walker is healthy, he is an elite receiver, the complete package. Why then,
would the Broncos give up a proven elite player for one who might be . . . if
he doesn't bust?

In fact, why would they draft a RB at all in the first day, when they need
a DT/LB/safety so badly? I don't know . . . there might be a midget or two on
staff, but I don't think there are any mental midgets . . .

-----

So, topscribe takes a shot by calling me a mental midget. Thats nice.

[lex]

WELL, id say yes and no.

No, because i want us to keep walker, but if shanny is for sure going to trade him then yes this wouldnt be to bad. but i also dont think mcfadden is that good running throught traffic and pushing the pile. But....

Yes because he is pretty sick. Plus, i have seen very little footage of him running, so if he can make his own holes (instead running through large ones already there) and we can still keep our 2nd and such that would be awesome. Imo i would prefer to have stewart as our back. I just think he fits the mold better. But if Dmac turns out to be a combo of LT and reggie Bush, and not just bush I am all for it!!!


McFadden is very impressive, but not the back for us.

~G

Actually, Mendenhall would be a better fit than Stewart. Neither are as good as McFadden though regardless of system. One thing about McFadden that rarely gets mentioned is that he plays hurt. Hes had a few times where he's had excuses to miss games but hasnt. He's a fast healer. I just think McFaddens size/speed combo is too good not to do this deal if its there. Im a huge Florida fan so I watch a lot of SEC and McFadden has probably been the best SEC RB since Bo Jackson.

[topscribe]

So, topscribe takes a shot by calling me a mental midget. Thats nice.

No I did not. I was referring absolutely, positively to staff.

I did not have you or anyone else in mind.

-----

[fcspikeit]

If McFadden is still there at 6 and the Jets would be willing to trade the #6 for #12, Foxworth and Javon Walker (or a future 3rd or 2nd), would you do it and take McFadden considering it would leave all our current picks in tact?

When I first read this I thought it said, foxworth, Walker next years 2, and 3rd. I was going to say hell no! LOL

After seeing the "or" I think we should consider it. But why would we draft McFadden? I say we trade back out of the 6th, down do like the 9th or 10th, and pick up a 3rd. With the 9th or 10th pick we could almost certainly get Ellis or Phillips.

We would have got the guy we wanted, Picked up the 3rd we needed, for Foxworth and Walker.

Beings we now had a 3rd, we could draft the best RB on the board with our second pick. Then grab Wheeler with our 3rd, or if Wheeler was gone we could grab the best S on the board, (Assuming we got Ellis in the 1st)

[lex]

When I first read this I thought it said, foxworth, Walker next years 2, and 3rd. I was going to say hell no! LOL

After seeing the "or" I think we should consider it. But why would we draft McFadden? I say we trade back out of the 6th, down do like the 9th or 10th, and pick up a 3rd. With the 9th or 10th pick we could almost certainly get Ellis or Phillips.

We would have got the guy we wanted, Picked up the 3rd we needed, for Foxworth and Walker.

Beings we now had a 3rd, we could draft the best RB on the board with our second pick. Then grab Wheeler with our 3rd, or if Wheeler was gone we could grab the best S on the board, (Assuming we got Ellis in the 1st)

Weve already invested a lot of draft picks in the defensive line in recent years, which means theyre still young. Id rather not extend the timeline for the learning curve and get a veteran into the mix. Same with safety. Id actually like to sign Gibril Wilson and Corey Williams and possibly a LB. For me, it should be all about helping Cutler by drafting a game changing RB and a Tackle such as Chris Williams (depending on whether they move Kuper to Tackle as was mentioned in Shanahans presser). Im also an advocate for drafting Jordy Nelson and Dexter Jackson/Paul Raymond. If Chris Williams isnt available in the 2nd, Id consider Erin Henderson or Beau Bell or Id trade our 2nd for a late 2nd and late 3rd and draft Oniel Cousins followed by Roy Schuening in the 3rd. Id be OK with Mendenhall and/or Charles but if you get a crack at a guy like McFadden, I say go for it.

The thing is that we have several injury liabilities on the offensive line. Ryan Harris has a back problems which often recur. Hamilton is already on his way down the slippery slope as far as concussions are concerned. Once you miss time as he has, its really easy for concussions to happen and with much greater frequency. And Tom Nalen is getting up there in years. So basically you have Myers, Holland and Kuper...and hopefully they stay healthy. Pears is a backup.

BTW, Wheeler is not a Mike and thats all he played this year. Are you comfortable drafting a guy for a position he hasnt played? Ive watched 3 or 4 GT games this year and he really struggled every time.

Here is something I put together that would apply to the scenario where theyd take the 12/Walker/Foxworth deal:
If they took the deal with Walker, Id take the 2nd next year and trade it for a 3rd this year to fortify the line some more the reason being that there are a lot of injury risks on the OLine as it is and doing this provides quality, depth, and competition.

1 Darren McFadden RB
2 Chris Williams LT
3 Roy Schuening OG
4 DeMario Pressley/Frank Okam DT
4 Jordy Nelson WR
5 Bryan Kehl/Jordan Dizon OLB
5 Dexter Jackson WR
7 Fernando Velasco C
7 Brian Witherspoon CB

And btw, if Williams were to be gone in the second, Id take Pat Sims, a DT in the 2nd and take Schmitt, a fullback, instead of the DT in the mid rounds.

[broncofanatic1987]

If McFadden is still there at 6 and the Jets would be willing to trade the #6 for #12, Foxworth and Javon Walker (or a future 3rd or 2nd), would you do it and take McFadden considering it would leave all our current picks in tact?


Why would the Jets give up McFadden for Foxworth and Walker? Or a future 2nd or 3rd round pick?

If McFadden is there at #6, they're going to take him. They didn't exactly hit a home run with the trade for Thomas Jones.

I'm all for the Broncos moving up for the opportunity to choose among the best talent in the draft. I just don't see it happening though. There aren't very many times when a team outside of the top ten pulls off a trade that gets them into the top ten. The only reason the Patsies have a top ten is because they made a trade last year for a pick that, at the time, wasn't guaranteed to be a top ten pick. STUPID 49ERS!!!!!!!!!

You can be pretty sure that the Jets don't think they're just a couple of players away from being a good team. They can't afford to pass up the marquee talent for a back up cornerback and a moody receiver that might or might not be healthy by next season. Besides, I don't know so many Bronco fans are in a hurry to ship Walker out. If he is healthy by next season, he's the best receiver on our team and we need him more than the Jets do.:salute:

[Mike]

Why would the Jets give up McFadden for Foxworth and Walker? Or a future 2nd or 3rd round pick?

If McFadden is there at #6, they're going to take him. They didn't exactly hit a home run with the trade for Thomas Jones.

I'm all for the Broncos moving up for the opportunity to choose among the best talent in the draft. I just don't see it happening though. There aren't very many times when a team outside of the top ten pulls off a trade that gets them into the top ten. The only reason the Patsies have a top ten is because they made a trade last year for a pick that, at the time, wasn't guaranteed to be a top ten pick. STUPID 49ERS!!!!!!!!!

You can be pretty sure that the Jets don't think they're just a couple of players away from being a good team. They can't afford to pass up the marquee talent for a back up cornerback and a moody receiver that might or might not be healthy by next season. Besides, I don't know so many Bronco fans are in a hurry to ship Walker out. If he is healthy by next season, he's the best receiver on our team and we need him more than the Jets do.:salute:

I disagree with you about Walker. I would like to keep him, but can't help but think that he will be a dividing factor in the locker room no matter what now. I also think that Marshall is better than Walker.


Regarding McFadden, I wouldn't do it. First, it would cost serious $$ to sign McFadden. Second, Denver needs to fix the O and D lines before they do anything else. Then S and LB need to be addressed. RB is only ahead of QB and TE on my wish list for Denver. Of course I miss the days of TD dominating...but as dominating as TD was he had a dominating line.

[Tned]

If McFadden is still there at 6 and the Jets would be willing to trade the #6 for #12, Foxworth and Javon Walker (or a future 3rd or 2nd), would you do it and take McFadden considering it would leave all our current picks in tact?

Yes, McFadden would bring a ton to the offense. With Javon's health being questionable and Marshall emerging and Stokely clearly having gas in the tank, would grab McFadden in a heart beat.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

After the first 4 guys in this draft, there is a definite dropoff. If one of the following: Dorsey, Long, Long, McFadden somehow made it to the #6 spot and we had a chance to move up that high w/o losing picks, we do it. If it's McFadden, GREAT! If it's Chris Long, GREAT! I doubt Foxxy and JW would be enough for NYJ, but I'd be cool dealing to get to 6.

[Mike]

Yes, McFadden would bring a ton to the offense. With Javon's health being questionable and Marshall emerging and Stokely clearly having gas in the tank, would grab McFadden in a heart beat.

If I have learned one thing over the last couple of years it is that RB's are a dime a dozen. I would be disappointed with the team if they did it and committed a lot of money to that position (especially added on to Henry's rediculous deal)...and considering all the holes the team has.

If Denver could move up and take a stud offensive lineman (Jake Long) of the draft I would be all for it. :beer:

[Tned]

If I have learned one thing over the last couple of years it is that RB's are a dime a dozen. I would be disappointed with the team if they did it and committed a lot of money to that position (especially added on to Henry's rediculous deal)...and considering all the holes the team has.

If Denver could move up and take a stud offensive lineman (Jake Long) of the draft I would be all for it. :beer:

I agree that beefring up the offensive line would make sense, but I don't see Shanny doing that.

Based on what I saw of McFadden in the Arkansas games, when the defense knew he was the ONLY offense, I think this guy is going to be a big time RB in the NFL. But, time will tell.

[lex]

Why would the Jets give up McFadden for Foxworth and Walker? Or a future 2nd or 3rd round pick?

If McFadden is there at #6, they're going to take him. They didn't exactly hit a home run with the trade for Thomas Jones.

I'm all for the Broncos moving up for the opportunity to choose among the best talent in the draft. I just don't see it happening though. There aren't very many times when a team outside of the top ten pulls off a trade that gets them into the top ten. The only reason the Patsies have a top ten is because they made a trade last year for a pick that, at the time, wasn't guaranteed to be a top ten pick. STUPID 49ERS!!!!!!!!!

You can be pretty sure that the Jets don't think they're just a couple of players away from being a good team. They can't afford to pass up the marquee talent for a back up cornerback and a moody receiver that might or might not be healthy by next season. Besides, I don't know so many Bronco fans are in a hurry to ship Walker out. If he is healthy by next season, he's the best receiver on our team and we need him more than the Jets do.:salute:

Because it wasnt only Foxworth and Walker. It was the #12, Foxworth and Walker. And what this does is, at the very least, give the Jets depth at CB and it also gives them a possible deep option at WR in addition to having the #12 pick which is only 6 spots down. We're probably going to lose Foxworth anyway and the same is true with Walker so we might as well get something out of them. And, I am of the belief that if Denver would try to trade Walker alone, he has less value than he does in a deal like this and the reason is that there is other stuff (the #12 pick and Foxworth) that the Jets may focus less on the possible downside of Walker since there essentially are the two other components hedging their bets. Additionally, its not like NY is losing draft picks either. They'd be moving back 6 spots and adding pieces along the way.

But me personally, if the Jets would rather have a 2009 pick instead, Id be OK with that. We're basically 400 pts away. And Im not so sure the Jets wouldnt mind not taking him. Theyre in the division with the Pats. They might prefer a defensive player more...kind of the same thought when the Houstons passed on Bush...plus Mangini is a defensive coach. If the Jets would rather have defense but feel pressure to take McFadden, this could give them an out.

[lex]

FYI, here is a mock that seems semi-realistic(unfortunately).

http://www.drafttek.com/round12008.html

If this situation were to play out, like this dont you think the Jets might be a willing trade partner?

Here is an evaluation some guy did on McFadden after the Auburn game:


Darren McFadden Summary:
Darren McFadden is the most celebrated draft eligible running back this season. He has a highlight reel worth of great plays and was the runner up for the Heisman trophy the last two years. He has great speed and fantastic acceleration. He has decent hands, is a good blocker and he can throw the ball as well as some college QBs. He is the best RB in this class and is likely to be a top 10 pick.

This was his worst game of the season. The Auburn defense held him to 43 yards and no touchdowns. This was a great game to review because although it shows off some of his great skills, it also highlights his negative traits. One thing you notice in watching McFadden on film is that he is very much a straight line runner. A very fast, quick accelerating straight line runner who can also run fast from sideline to sideline, but still, a more straight line runner than desired. He certainly has some wiggle, but he really doesn't have many juke or breakdown moves like most of the elite running backs.
Another thing that you can see in this game is that although he is quite big and well built, he really doesn't run with much power. He is willing to take on defenders and lower his shoulder, but he doesn't run through them very well or keep his balance after a hit.

He also doesn't seem as instinctual or have as good of vision as some of the other elite RBs. You can see all these things in one play, his last carry, the 36th play above. He first doesn't seem to see a hole that opens laterally to the LOS, then as a defender breaks in he doesn't even try a juke to get around the defender with minimal contact but instead lowers his shoulder to take the defender head on, and finally he doesn't move the defender very much and loses his balance as he spins after the contact.

Look, Darren McFadden is an excellent running back and is my top ranked RB in this class. But comparisons in terms of college domination or NFL readiness to Adrian Peterson, LaDanian Tomlinson or Reggie Bush are way off. He is the best back in the class, but not nearly as far above his peers as those 3 backs were in their class. He is also much less "bust proof" than those 3 (although some would say that Bush is a bust himself). I expect him to go #1 in almost all rookie drafts, but if you can get a real superstar for that pick, I would make the trade. He won't find as many straight lines or run away from as many defenders in the NFL.


It should be noted that McFadden was playing in this game with injured ribs and it probably affected what he is discussing in terms explosion when lowering his shoulder.

Basically, you see varying opinion on McFadden. And the Jets might be among the teams them.

But I actually think he'll find life easier in the NFL, especially Denver where teams have better QBs than Casey Dick.

[topscribe]

If I have learned one thing over the last couple of years it is that RB's are a dime a dozen. I would be disappointed with the team if they did it and committed a lot of money to that position (especially added on to Henry's rediculous deal)...and considering all the holes the team has.

If Denver could move up and take a stud offensive lineman (Jake Long) of the draft I would be all for it. :beer:

Exactly. I would not take a McFadden or any other RB at the expense of the
offensive and/or defensive line. I hope the FO is not that silly when it comes
time to draft. I watched too much of Floyd Little, one of the great RBs of all
time, IMO, get stuffed time and again, and tackled in the backfield, because
of the putrid offensive line in those years.

I would rather have a mediocre RB behind a superlative line than a superstar
behind a line such as the Broncos had back then. I can just see another
G.O.A.T. quality RB retiring from here with 5,000 yards and change.

And no Super Bowl.

-----

[Tned]

Exactly. I would not take a McFadden or any other RB at the expense of the
offensive and/or defensive line. I hope the FO is not that silly when it comes
time to draft. I watched too much of Floyd Little, one of the great RBs of all
time, IMO, get stuffed time and again, and tackled in the backfield, because
of the putrid offensive line in those years.

I would rather have a mediocre RB behind a superlative line than a superstar
behind a line such as the Broncos had back then. I can just see another
G.O.A.T. quality RB retiring from here with 5,000 yards and change.

And no Super Bowl.

-----

The question is whether or not shanny will address either line in the first round, regardless. Listening to his final press conference (could be all bluster), he said the offensive line and defensive line were in good shape, and that the trio of LB's were better than the year before (Wilson, Gold, Williams).

So, if you listen to Shanny, and believe him, that would leave you to believe that he would target offensive skill players or safeties (nickel/return possibly) early. I am not sure it's what I would do, but he has a history of thinking he can get linemen in FA or later in the draft.

Obviously, there are no absolutes. He drafted Moss last year, and Foster a few years back, However, I am just not sure I see Shanny going out and getting a bit O-linemen. It might have a lot to do with what type of offense he plans to run next year. The offense that made him successful, or the one he ran the last two years with Heimerdingers influence.


FYI, here is a mock that seems semi-realistic(unfortunately).

http://www.drafttek.com/round12008.html

If this situation were to play out, like this dont you think the Jets might be a willing trade partner?

Here is an evaluation some guy did on McFadden after the Auburn game:



It should be noted that McFadden was playing in this game with injured ribs and it probably affected what he is discussing in terms explosion when lowering his shoulder.

Basically, you see varying opinion on McFadden. And the Jets might be among the teams them.

But I actually think he'll find life easier in the NFL, especially Denver where teams have better QBs than Casey Dick.

I was going to point the same thing out. Isn't this the game he sat out most of the 3rd quarter with the injury? Also, unlike in college, in the pros, he likely won't be THE defensive focal point of nearly every play. Whether in a regular formation or the wildcat/wildhawg offense, the defenses keyed on McFadden.

Time will tell.

[topscribe]

The question is whether or not shanny will address either line in the first round, regardless. Listening to his final press conference (could be all bluster), he said the offensive line and defensive line were in good shape, and that the trio of LB's were better than the year before (Wilson, Gold, Williams).

So, if you listen to Shanny, and believe him, that would leave you to believe that he would target offensive skill players or safeties (nickel/return possibly) early. I am not sure it's what I would do, but he has a history of thinking he can get linemen in FA or later in the draft.

Obviously, there are no absolutes. He drafted Moss last year, and Foster a few years back, However, I am just not sure I see Shanny going out and getting a bit O-linemen. It might have a lot to do with what type of offense he plans to run next year. The offense that made him successful, or the one he ran the last two years with Heimerdingers influence.


That concerns me a little bit. The Broncos obviously fell flat on their face
this year, trying to adapt the personnel to a scheme. I always thought that
the scheme should be developed according to the personnel.

So are the Broncos going to draft players that fit a scheme they have in
mind, or are they going to draft the best athletes available and then adapt
the scheme to their strengths?

This is where I believe the Broncos failed. They don't have all the holes to
fill that some think they do, IMO. They abound with talent. They just need
to use that talent according to their strengths.

And draft the same way . . .

IMHO.

-----

[fcspikeit]

FYI, here is a mock that seems semi-realistic(unfortunately).

http://www.drafttek.com/round12008.html

If this situation were to play out, like this dont you think the Jets might be a willing trade partner?

Here is an evaluation some guy did on McFadden after the Auburn game:


Darren McFadden Summary:
Darren McFadden is the most celebrated draft eligible running back this season. He has a highlight reel worth of great plays and was the runner up for the Heisman trophy the last two years. He has great speed and fantastic acceleration. He has decent hands, is a good blocker and he can throw the ball as well as some college QBs. He is the best RB in this class and is likely to be a top 10 pick.

This was his worst game of the season. The Auburn defense held him to 43 yards and no touchdowns. This was a great game to review because although it shows off some of his great skills, it also highlights his negative traits. One thing you notice in watching McFadden on film is that he is very much a straight line runner. A very fast, quick accelerating straight line runner who can also run fast from sideline to sideline, but still, a more straight line runner than desired. He certainly has some wiggle, but he really doesn't have many juke or breakdown moves like most of the elite running backs.
Another thing that you can see in this game is that although he is quite big and well built, he really doesn't run with much power. He is willing to take on defenders and lower his shoulder, but he doesn't run through them very well or keep his balance after a hit.

He also doesn't seem as instinctual or have as good of vision as some of the other elite RBs. You can see all these things in one play, his last carry, the 36th play above. He first doesn't seem to see a hole that opens laterally to the LOS, then as a defender breaks in he doesn't even try a juke to get around the defender with minimal contact but instead lowers his shoulder to take the defender head on, and finally he doesn't move the defender very much and loses his balance as he spins after the contact.

Look, Darren McFadden is an excellent running back and is my top ranked RB in this class. But comparisons in terms of college domination or NFL readiness to Adrian Peterson, LaDanian Tomlinson or Reggie Bush are way off. He is the best back in the class, but not nearly as far above his peers as those 3 backs were in their class. He is also much less "bust proof" than those 3 (although some would say that Bush is a bust himself). I expect him to go #1 in almost all rookie drafts, but if you can get a real superstar for that pick, I would make the trade. He won't find as many straight lines or run away from as many defenders in the NFL.


It should be noted that McFadden was playing in this game with injured ribs and it probably affected what he is discussing in terms explosion when lowering his shoulder.

Basically, you see varying opinion on McFadden. And the Jets might be among the teams them.

But I actually think he'll find life easier in the NFL, especially Denver where teams have better QBs than Casey Dick.


After reading that, Why would we want to trade up to get him?

I haven't seen that much of him, but I have seen tape of some of the other top backs in this draft and they are way better then this. Is he even the best back coming out? :confused:

Seriously, if the Jets are afraid of drafting him with the pick they have because of reports like this, why would we "trade up" to get him?

Man... that sounds like a desperation reach! :shocked:

We are not that desperate at RB to warrant this! :coffee:

[Broncolingus]

McFadden makes me swell up down below, but we have bigger fish to fry than our RB position. Phillips or Ellis in 08 please.

...sounds like a hormonal imbalance - see your doctor.

Get a solid offensive line back in here and we’ll make the backs we have now look like all-world.

Draft is deep RBs anyway so he’s not the only fish in the water…

Oh, and we need a really good FB though too…

[topscribe]

McFadden makes me swell up down below, but we have bigger fish to fry than our RB position. Phillips or Ellis in 08 please.

No problem.

You are welcome here, regardless of sexual orientation . . .

-----

[lex]

Exactly. I would not take a McFadden or any other RB at the expense of the
offensive and/or defensive line. I hope the FO is not that silly when it comes
time to draft. I watched too much of Floyd Little, one of the great RBs of all
time, IMO, get stuffed time and again, and tackled in the backfield, because
of the putrid offensive line in those years.

I would rather have a mediocre RB behind a superlative line than a superstar
behind a line such as the Broncos had back then. I can just see another
G.O.A.T. quality RB retiring from here with 5,000 yards and change.

And no Super Bowl.

-----

Wow. Floyd Little played almost 40 years ago. Even with a bad OLine Selvin Young had over 5 ypc. Who was the QB when Little played? Cutlers arm makes the defense defend all parts of the field. The thing is though that while Young had a good APC and several long runs, he almost every time was not able to take it all the way. I remember hearing a stat that prior to the KC game in November, Denvers longest TD run was 9 yards. Selvin Young had several long runs that he wasnt able to take to the house. An issue that gets ignored is the fact that our RBs were sprung to the next level sometimes and this is where the quality of RB matters.

And no one is saying the Oline shouldnt be addressed also.

[lex]

After reading that, Why would we want to trade up to get him?

I haven't seen that much of him, but I have seen tape of some of the other top backs in this draft and they are way better then this. Is he even the best back coming out? :confused:

Seriously, if the Jets are afraid of drafting him with the pick they have because of reports like this, why would we "trade up" to get him?

Man... that sounds like a desperation reach! :shocked:

We are not that desperate at RB to warrant this! :coffee:

Because he is the best RB in this class and likely the best RB to come out since LT. This is this one guys opinion based on his worst game of the year where he had injured ribs. I actually watched this game. Auburns Dline gave Arkansas fits. LSU has a better defense than Auburn and look at what he did to LSU when healthy. Being a Florida fan, I watch a lot of the SEC and have watched him for 3 years and Im not worried about these "faults" that he sees. If you give McFadden room to run and in particular to the next level, his combination of speed along with his stiff arm will add a physicality... an attitude to the offense. But the game he evaluated was a game where he had nowhere to run and pretty much no running back would have had success in that game. Actually, most running backs would struggle to get 1000 yards if playing in the SEC on a team with no passing threat. McFadden had 1800 yards playing in the SEC on a team that had a scrub as a QB and a leading receiver that was their full back. Im not worried about him at all. Not even Bo Jackson had 100 yards every game in college.

[Tned]

After reading that, Why would we want to trade up to get him?

I haven't seen that much of him, but I have seen tape of some of the other top backs in this draft and they are way better then this. Is he even the best back coming out? :confused:

Seriously, if the Jets are afraid of drafting him with the pick they have because of reports like this, why would we "trade up" to get him?

Man... that sounds like a desperation reach! :shocked:

We are not that desperate at RB to warrant this! :coffee:

Remember that was a single evaluation. McFadden was a two time Heisman runner up, and was running for a team with NO passing offense. Here is some stats to consider were racked up on a team with a one demension offense, and that dimension was running, but to a large degree McFadden. Even though Jones had a great year and YPC this year, how many of those big runs came with McFadden in as the decoy.


Heisman runner up in Sophmore and Junior year

Only second SEC player (Hershell Walker) to rush for over 1,000 yards in Freshman, Sophmore and Junior years.

His 1830 yards in 2007, moved him into second place in the all time SEC rushing record, behind Hershell Walker and ahead of Bo Jackson and Kevin Faulk.

Second player (Ricky Williams) to win the Doak Walker award twice


So, as I have said, only time will tell, but you don't typically run up stats like that on a lousy football team if you don't have pretty good talent.

[topscribe]

Wow. Floyd Little played almost 40 years ago. Even with a bad OLine Selvin Young had over 5 ypc. Who was the QB when Little played? Cutlers arm makes the defense defend all parts of the field. The thing is though that while Young had a good APC and several long runs, he almost every time was not able to take it all the way. I remember hearing a stat that prior to the KC game in November, Denvers longest TD run was 9 yards. Selvin Young had several long runs that he wasnt able to take to the house. An issue that gets ignored is the fact that our RBs were sprung to the next level sometimes and this is where the quality of RB matters.

And no one is saying the Oline shouldnt be addressed also.

You are assuming the Broncos have a "bad" offensive line. I don't think so,
and neither do many others. They certainly are nowhere nearly as bad as
that which Floyd Little had.

But you made my point. Because the line can block, Young had that sterling
5.2-yard YPA, and Hall did well, too . . . not to mention that Henry was
leading the NFL in yardage before he went down.

Regarding Young's ability to take it to the house, I never saw Gayle Sayers,
Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson, or Terrell Davis take it to the house every
time they got it to the second level. It has to do with defenders having the
angle on them. I watched those games and replays very closely with that
in mind, regarding Young. The only time he was caught was when a defender
had the angle on him. He never was caught strictly from behind.

But another thing to keep in mind: Gayle Sayers, Barry Sanders, and O.J.
Simpson never enjoyed a Super Bowl, either. I remember the Patriots winning
three Super Bowls, however . . . without a great running back, in his prime,
anyway.

The difference is, they had great lines.

-----

[lex]

You are assuming the Broncos have a "bad" offensive line. I don't think so,
and neither do many others. They certainly are nowhere nearly as bad as
that which Floyd Little had.

But you made my point. Because the line can block, Young had that sterling
5.2-yard YPA, and Hall did well, too . . . not to mention that Henry was
leading the NFL in yardage before he went down.

Regarding Young's ability to take it to the house, I never saw Gayle Sayers,
Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson, or Terrell Davis take it to the house every
time they got it to the second level. It has to do with defenders having the
angle on them. I watched those games and replays very closely with that
in mind, regarding Young. The only time he was caught was when a defender
had the angle on him. He never was caught strictly from behind.

But another thing to keep in mind: Gayle Sayers, Barry Sanders, and O.J.
Simpson never enjoyed a Super Bowl, either. I remember the Patriots winning
three Super Bowls, however . . . without a great running back, in his prime,
anyway.

The difference is, they had great lines.

-----

To the contrary. You must not read the whole post. I said the quality of RB matters when getting to that next level. And I said that the line was good enough to spring Young to the second level sometimes but he couldnt take it home. This is where you see the distinction. Where the Oline matters is when we play better teams against the run but even then having a good RB has more value.

[topscribe]

To the contrary. You must not read the whole post. I said the quality of RB matters when getting to that next level. And I said that the line was good enough to spring Young to the second level sometimes but he couldnt take it home. This is where you see the distinction. Where the Oline matters is when we play better teams against the run but even then having a good RB has value.

In fact, I did cover that aspect. I explained why Young did not take it to the
house when he didn't. It doesn't matter who has the ball, what kind of
superstar he is. If the defense has the angle on him, he will not outrun them.
In fact, however, Young did run for a TD, thoroughly outrunning everybody
against Minnesota, only to have it called back by a holding penalty on the
other side of the field.

I maintain that Young is that quality back. Some think he might have been
a first round pick, had he not suffered that broken ankle, which derailed his
college career. Several of his teammates acknowledged he can score from
anywhere on the field.

I have just seen too many juggernaut offenses that never won championships.
The Broncos do not need to draft a RB, anywhere in the draft, IMO. As LDB
pointed out, RBs are always available. The Broncos need DTs first, a safety
second, and LB third, IMO. After that come the offensive line, a WR, then
RB. The Broncos don't have enough selections to get down to there.

-----

[lex]

In fact, I did cover that aspect. I explained why Young did not take it to the
house when he didn't. It doesn't matter who has the ball, what kind of
superstar he is. If the defense has the angle on him, he will not outrun them.
In fact, however, Young did run for a TD, thoroughly outrunning everybody
against Minnesota, only to have it called back by a holding penalty on the
other side of the field.
Young doesnt have the speed or stiff arm that McFadden has. When sprung to the next level, McFadden is far more likely to punch it in. And while it may not matter if he is a superstar, its important to consider why they are a superstar and if that reason is speed and stiff arm, it does matter.


I maintain that Young is that quality back. Many believe he could have been
a first round pick, had he not suffered that broken ankle, which derailed his
college career. Several of his teammates acknowledged he can score from
anywhere on the field.

While I agree that Young is a quality back, he's not on the level of what where talking about. And he was supplanted by Charles at Texas. Charles is a is slotted as a 2nd round pick.


I have just seen too many juggernaut offenses that never won championships.
And the only time Ive seen Denver win a SB is when they had an elite running game. And Im all about improving the Oline as well.


The Broncos do not need to draft a RB, anywhere in the draft, IMO. As LDB
pointed out, RBs are always available. The Broncos need DTs first, a safety
second, and LB third, IMO. After that come the offensive line, a WR, then
RB. The Broncos don't have enough selections to get down to there.

-----

...and this is myth that you subscribe to. Besides, Shanahan said Young and Hall arent really durable enough. Nor is Henry since he was injured as much as anyone. McFadden is durable.

[topscribe]

Young doesnt have the speed or stiff arm that McFadden has. When sprung to the next level, McFadden is far more likely to punch it in. And while it may not matter if he is a superstar, its important to consider why they are a superstar and if that reason is speed and stiff arm, it does matter.

Hmmm . . . Young ran a 4.36 out of high school. He was completely
healthy this last season for the very first time since breaking his ankle,
which means he has his speed back. And he showed it, drawing raves about
his speed. I remember one comment that he makes the others look as if
they are playing in slow motion.

Speed is definitely not a problem for Young.


While I agree that Young is a quality back, he's not on the level of what where talking about. And he was supplanted by Charles at Texas. Charles is a is slotted as a 2nd round pick. Your argument is not with me; it is with those who commented that Young
might have been a first round pick, had it not been for his broken ankle.
Regarding Charles, I could have supplanted Young at RB when he had a
broken ankle. And I wasn't even a very good defensive end.


And the only time Ive seen Denver win a SB is when they had an elite running game. And Im all about improving the Oline as well. And why did Denver have an elite running game? It was more than just
Terrell Davis. It was Tony Jones, Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman, Tom
Nalen, Brian Habib, and Howard Griffith. Not to mention the passing threat
of the legendary John Elway.

Of course, when TD went down, Olandis Gary did his 1,000 yard thing, and
Mike Anderson after him. I wonder why? . . .


...and this is myth that you subscribe to. Besides, Shanahan said Young and Hall arent really durable enough. Nor is Henry since he was injured as much as anyone. McFadden is durable.Myth? It's amazing how people will attribute their own characteristics to
others. I provided facts. I made no private claims. You made them.

Denver showed they still have a good running game. They also showed they
were poor at stopping the run and collapsing the pocket on the other side.
The need DTs. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;)

-----

[lex]

Hmmm . . . Young ran a 4.36 out of high school. He was completely
healthy this last season for the very first time since breaking his ankle,
which means he has his speed back. And he showed it, drawing raves about
his speed. I remember one comment that he makes the others look as if
they are playing in slow motion.

Speed is definitely not a problem for Young.

Your argument is not with me; it is with those who commented that Young
might have been a first round pick, had it not been for his broken ankle.
Regarding Charles, I could have supplanted Young at RB when he had a
broken ankle. And I wasn't even a very good defensive end.

And why did Denver have an elite running game? It was more than just
Terrell Davis. It was Tony Jones, Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman, Tom
Nalen, Brian Habib, and Howard Griffith. Not to mention the passing threat
of the legendary John Elway.

Of course, when TD went down, Olandis Gary did his 1,000 yard thing, and
Mike Anderson after him. I wonder why? . . .

Myth? It's amazing how people will attribute their own characteristics to
others. I provided facts. I made no private claims. You made them.

Denver showed they still have a good running game. They also showed they
were poor at stopping the run and collapsing the pocket on the other side.
The need DTs. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;)

-----

-----


What facts? Unnamed sources? Do you mean acknowledging that his teammates like him? You might as well quote his mother. And Im not buying your theory that it takes that long to heal from an ankle. Ive had broken legs before.

[topscribe]

What facts? Unnamed sources? Do you mean acknowledging that his teammates like him? You might as well quote his mother. And Im not buying your theory that it takes that long to heal from an ankle. Ive had broken legs before.

Oh? How many broken legs have you had? Have you broken an ankle? Were
you there for the prognosis? Do you have a clue as to what kind of break it
was?

I cited others. For instance, I mentioned Young's 4.36 40 out of high
school. You simply said he did not have enough speed. You give me some
facts. I haven't seen them out of you yet. Then come back and talk about
my facts.

Until you can do that, I'll go ahead and conclude this particular conversation.
Anything further would be a pissing contest. I'm not into them.

Except to parrot the opinions of many other knowledgeable people: The
Broncos need DTs.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Selvin Young, even without injuries - was never regarded as a possible first round pick in the NFL Draft. That's false.

[lex]

Oh? How many broken legs have you had? Have you broken an ankle? Were
you there for the prognosis? Do you have a clue as to what kind of break it
was?

OK, you jackass, Ive had two broken legs. And again, Im not buying what youre saying about the broken ankle lingering that long.



I cited others. For instance, I mentioned Young's 4.36 40 out of high
school. You simply said he did not have enough speed. You give me some
facts. I haven't seen them out of you yet. Then come back and talk about
my facts.
When/where/how was he timed? 40 times are sometimes more legend than fact.



-----


The facts speak for themselves. McFadden is the main guy playing in a backfield with another first round grade running back. Jamaal Charles was ahead of Young on the depth chart and Charles is slotted as a 2nd round back...plus then theres the matter of statistics that support me.

[topscribe]

you jackass

Personal attacks now, Lex? Enjoy your short stay here.




Regarding 40 times:

http://texas.scout.com/a.z?s=110&p=8&c=1&nid=5928
http://texas.rivals.com/viewprospect...ey=246&sport=1 (http://texas.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=246&sport=1)



-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Then provide a source to where you read it, otherwise why would anybody believe you?

[topscribe]

Then provide a source to where you read it, otherwise why would anybody believe you?

Because I said I read it, that's why.

But then, why would I care whether you believe me?

Now stop baiting. You are doing it with the wrong person, trust me.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

The fact is he was never considered a first round talent. Period.

[Tned]

OK, you jackass, Ive had two broken legs. And again, Im not buying what youre saying about the broken ankle lingering that long.


Lex, you have been warned and warned again. Attacking people, mods or otherwise, is not ok. Calling someone a Jackass, is not ok.

IF the mods and I decide not to suspend you over this, be CLEAR THIS will be your FINAL warning.

[topscribe]

The fact is he was never considered a first round talent. Period.

Yes, Dream. You know it all. And I am a liar. :coffee:

I don't remember where all I read and/or heard it now. But I do not appreciate your allusion.

Now, I'm through talking with you about it, too. I'm going to try to find a discussion at a higher level.

-----

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Yes, Dream. You know it all. And I am a liar. :coffee:

I don't remember where all I read and/or heard it now. But I do not appreciate your allusion.

Now, I'm through talking with you about it, too. I'm going to try to find a discussion at a higher level.

-----

This isn't the first time you've made a claim about a player that turned out to be erroneous. (Like Travis Henry having 4.3 speed, LOL!) I've followed the draft closely for years now, and not once was Selvin Young mentioned as a player who ever had first round potential. What you probably read was a typical fluff piece about a Denver player put out by the local media. That doesn't constitute as a valid source, because there is no way in Hell an UDFA ever carried a first-round grade.

Falls that epic just don't happen.

Oh, maybe you heard it from Sundquist. The same guy who said that Maurice's measurables made him more worthy of a selection than Marion Barber III at the #100 pick we had as a compensatory selection in the draft three years ago. (Depsite the fact that Maurice was out of football for two years, and didn't run faster than a 4.6 40-yard dash!) He tends to get confused.

And for the record: I never called you a liar, so you can put words in my mouth until the cows come home, but if you can't back up what you're saying - you might as well not say it. It doesn't even matter if it's you who is saying it.

Documentation matters, and if you can't find the documentation or proof - you know how the saying goes, "It probably never happened."

Kudos on the nice "underhand insult" there on finding conversation on a higher level. Steal of the "draft" right there!

[topscribe]

This isn't the first time you've made a claim about a player that turned out to be erroneous. (Like Travis Henry having 4.3 speed, LOL!) I've followed the draft closely for years now, and not once was Selvin Young mentioned as a player who ever had first round potential. What you probably read was a typical fluff piece about a Denver player put out by the local media. That doesn't constitute as a valid source, because there is no way in Hell an UDFA ever carried a first-round grade.

Falls that epic just don't happen.

Oh, maybe you heard it from Sundquist. The same guy who said that Maurice's measurables made him more worthy of a selection than Marion Barber III at the #100 pick we had as a compensatory selection in the draft three years ago. (Depsite the fact that Maurice was out of football for two years, and didn't run faster than a 4.6 40-yard dash!) He tends to get confused.

And for the record: I never called you a liar, so you can put words in my mouth until the cows come home, but if you can't back up what you're saying - you might as well not say it. It doesn't even matter if it's you who is saying it.

Documentation matters, and if you can't find the documentation or proof - you know how the saying goes, "It probably never happened."

You know, you are the last person who should be questioning my credibilty
on this board, after what you said about BroncosForums on Broncomania.
You remember?

Or perhaps we ought to recount it right here? Or maybe I'll just go and
bump that thread?

If you want to discuss issues, fine. But don't you question my credibility.

If I said I heard and/or read something, I did.

Now let's shut down this nonsense and get back on topic.

Like now . . .

-----

[lex]

Lex, you have been warned and warned again. Attacking people, mods or otherwise, is not ok. Calling someone a Jackass, is not ok.

IF the mods and I decide not to suspend you over this, be CLEAR THIS will be your FINAL warning.

Suspend? Since when are mods allowed to rampantly start **** and indulge in personal attacks. The guy has been exposed. He doesnt even know what he's talking about and so he's challenging me on having broken legs.


The only way someone would give up that for Walker would be if he is healthy.
If Walker is healthy, he is an elite receiver, the complete package. Why then,
would the Broncos give up a proven elite player for one who might be . . . if
he doesn't bust?

In fact, why would they draft a RB at all in the first day, when they need
a DT/LB/safety so badly? I don't know . . . there might be a midget or two on
staff, but I don't think there are any mental midgets . . .

[lex]

You know, you are the last person who should be questioning my credibilty
on this board, after what you said about BroncosForums on Broncomania.
You remember?

Or perhaps we ought to recount it right here? Or maybe I'll just go and
bump that thread?

If you want to discuss issues, fine. But don't you question my credibility.

If I said I heard and/or read something, I did.

Now let's shut down this nonsense and get back on topic.

Like now . . .

-----

Youre not even really refuting what he is saying as much as youre making an ad hominem attack stemming from something you were offended by, which has nothing to do with fact or credibility. He has exposed you so youre playing an ace in the hole that is an ad hominem attack.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

You know, you are the last person who should be questioning my credibilty
on this board, after what you said about BroncosForums on Broncomania.
You remember?

Or perhaps we ought to recount it right here? Or maybe I'll just go and
bump that thread?

Well, it seems like in the long run - some of my thoughts seemed to have ran the course on how this board was ran because changes are in the makes. Then again, this has nothing to do with what I said on Broncomania.

Like Lex said, (and I don't even get along with Lex really) - ad hominem.


If you want to discuss issues, fine. But don't you question my credibility.

This is actually really funny because you're the one who is refusing to back up your claim and discuss the issues.


If I said I heard and/or read something, I did.

Uh. . . no. That's not how life works. If you cannot provide where you read, or where you heard that Selvin Young was a first round talent, then obviously it probably wasn't said.


Now let's shut down this nonsense and get back on topic.

Like now . . .

Then stop perpetuating the argument with typical ad hominem and provide where you found the information.

The fact is, not one team considered Selvin Young to be a first-round talent. Not one scout in the NFL, and probably not one draft guru in the whole world. If so, he wouldn't have went undrafted.

You seem to get a little uptight when people are interested in where you heard something. Sources are always good when making statements. You of all people should know that.

[Tned]

Suspend? Since when are mods allowed to rampantly start **** and indulge in personal attacks. The guy has been exposed. He doesnt even know what he's talking about and so he's challenging me on having broken legs.

I won't debate you on this in the open forum. If you feel someone attacked you report them, DO NOT call them a jackass. You have been formerly warned more than once.

[lex]

I won't debate you on this in the open forum. If you feel someone attacked you report them, DO NOT call them a jackass. You have been formerly warned more than once.

OK, topscribe has been starting **** since Ive been here. The same way you ignore it now is why it hasnt been reported.

[Tned]

OK, topscribe has been starting **** since Ive been here. The same way you ignore it now is why it hasnt been reported.

Les, your making assumptions that nothing would happen if you reported a post is not an excuse for breaking the rules, now or the many times you have done it in the past.

Get back on topic, and drop this. NOW!

[lex]

Les, your making assumptions that nothing would happen if you reported a post is not an excuse for breaking the rules, now or the many times you have done it in the past.

Get back on topic, and drop this. NOW!


Whats being done now? Ive even provided proof. See what I mean about ignoring it?

[topscribe]

Thread has been thoroughly derailed. Must be closed.

-----