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Tned
01-12-2008, 03:45 AM
Bucs still pursuing Plummer
By The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 01/12/2008 01:02:25 AM MSTT

The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have not given up their pursuit of Jake Plummer.

According to the team's "Pewter Report" magazine, Tampa Bay general manager Bruce Allen said the team will try to persuade Plummer to play for the team in 2008. The Buccaneers acquired Plummer in a trade from the Broncos in March, even though Plummer got the word out that he was retired.

If Plummer reports to Tampa Bay before the April draft, Denver will receive a fourth-round pick this year. If not, Denver will get a seventh-round pick. Plummer is living in Idaho and has made it clear he intends to stay retired.

Wilson update

Al Wilson's agent, Peter Schaffer, said Friday he continues to field inquiries from teams about Wilson. Schaffer said Wilson is in no rush to sign.

"We're going to go slow," Schaffer said, "and do it right."

Footnotes

The Darrent Williams Memorial Teen Center is tentatively set to open April 22 in Montbello. ... It appears assistant coach Jimmy Spencer is leaving the organization. ... Denver coach Mike Shanahan had a chance to work the playoffs as an analyst for a network but turned it down because of his schedule. ... Shanahan called linebacker Jordan Beck a "difference maker" on special teams and said Jamie Winborn has a chance to be a starting linebacker next season.

Bill Williamson, The Denver Post


http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7950230?source=rss

SR
01-12-2008, 03:46 AM
BOOOOOOOOOO Jake Plummer.

Bronco9798
01-12-2008, 03:47 AM
Jakes hanging in the mountains smoking a bowl and laughing.

Watchthemiddle
01-12-2008, 03:49 AM
IT would be nice if he returned so we could get a 4th.

fcspikeit
01-12-2008, 04:22 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7950230?source=rss

Man I hope Bruce Allen has a way with words...

We could really use the extra 4th!

Why would they do this though? It would make more sense for them to wait until after the April draft then sign him and they could keep the 4th.

Also,, Should we assume Shanahan is not going to address the LB position because of his comments about Beck and Winborn :mad:

LRtagger
01-12-2008, 10:24 AM
I think if Dorsey and Ellis are gone when our pick comes up (which they probably will be), we have no choice but to pick a stud LB...I dont think Shanny will use his first pick on the OL and there are no other DT's that will go in the first round. I hope to God that Ellis is on the board when pick 12 comes up.

It would be nice to get a 4th, but I doubt Plummer is coming back to the NFL to fight for the starting job against Gracia and his chihuahua

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 11:06 AM
If he reports to Tampa I wish him the best, if he doesn't I wish him the best. He doesn't owe Denver a 4th round pick.

JONtheBRONCO
01-12-2008, 11:09 AM
Do work Jake.

nevcraw
01-12-2008, 11:50 AM
If he reports to Tampa I wish him the best, if he doesn't I wish him the best. He doesn't owe Denver a 4th round pick.

The sentiment is sweet, but I'd rather the Broncos have the 4th rounder.. Come on Back Jake!!!

topscribe
01-12-2008, 11:55 AM
Stick to your guns, Jake.

The day a 4th round draft choice is more important than personal values . . .

-----

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 11:59 AM
The sentiment is sweet, but I'd rather the Broncos have the 4th rounder.. Come on Back Jake!!!

Sure from the stand point of benefit to the Broncos, however if Jake doesn't it really is no loss to the Broncos.

topscribe
01-12-2008, 12:02 PM
Sure from the stand point of benefit to the Broncos, however if Jake doesn't it really is no loss to the Broncos.

There are only two people Jake owes anything in the world to: himself and his wife.

-----

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 12:11 PM
There are only two people Jake owes anything in the world to: himself and his wife.

-----


Absolutely, and if he were changes his mind good for him. It's his choice and no one has the right criticize him whatever his choice is. As it stands it sounds like he is resolute not playing again.

DenBronx
01-12-2008, 12:28 PM
i wonder how garcia feels about all of this. he's got to be thinking man the bucs really don't have a whole lot of faith in me if there still trying to pursure this guy. he did get them to the playoffs and yet they are still trying for plummer. but in reality plummer is a much better qb than garcia anyway, so i can see why they would want to.

i'd like to see him play again. i think he still has alot left.

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 12:40 PM
i wonder how garcia feels about all of this. he's got to be thinking man the bucs really don't have a whole lot of faith in me if there still trying to pursure this guy. he did get them to the playoffs and yet they are still trying for plummer. but in reality plummer is a much better qb than garcia anyway, so i can see why they would want to.

i'd like to see him play again. i think he still has alot left.

They might be worried about his back.

I would say they equal as quarterbacking talent even though Jeff has better overall numbers.

The biggest difference in my opinion is that Jeff is a more accurate passer but Jake as the stronger arm.

silkamilkamonico
01-12-2008, 12:42 PM
Jakes hanging in the mountains smoking a bowl and laughing.

Living in Sandpoint Idaho, I'd be doing the same.....

..Jake's probably LHAO at an organization so hard up for a 4th round pick....

WARHORSE
01-12-2008, 01:05 PM
BOOOOOOOOOO Jake Plummer.


HOOOOOOORAAAAAAAAY BEEEEEER!:beer:

WARHORSE
01-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Jakes hanging in the mountains smoking a bowl and laughing.


At first Id have thought so. But hes an angry dude nowadays.

Im thinkin, youre walkin along on a trail in an Idaho forest, and youre thinkin its just you and nature. Then all of a sudden Jake steps out from behind a tree wearin camo, face painted, chewin tabacca with a rope slung across his shoulders. A second later, older brother Jake Jr. steps out from the tree behind ya, squeelin and HAWin while tossin him a handball back n forth.

Jake, with bacca filled teeth spits on the ground and says, "You know who Pat Tillman is?"



Anyone seen Deliverance?

Requiem / The Dagda
01-12-2008, 01:14 PM
It's not that the Broncos are "hard up" for a fourth round pick, but they would absolutely like to have a fourth, rather than a seventh rounder. I'd love for Jake to return and play football, and benefit the Broncos at the same time; but he doesn't have to come back.

I look forward to the Broncos trading down (well, if Shanahan really wants to emphasize the draft like he said he does, he'd be smart and do this) and accumulating more picks anyways.

At least this clears up that we do in fact get their selection.

Tned
01-12-2008, 01:17 PM
Man I hope Bruce Allen has a way with words...

We could really use the extra 4th!

Why would they do this though? It would make more sense for them to wait until after the April draft then sign him and they could keep the 4th.

Also,, Should we assume Shanahan is not going to address the LB position because of his comments about Beck and Winborn :mad:

I haven't looked at the Bucs situation, but maybe they feel they need to go out and get another QB, which could be Jake or someone else.

Or, this is just posturing to make the bucs look good when the returning bonus money thing goes to trial or arbitration.

fcspikeit
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
I haven't looked at the Bucs situation, but maybe they feel they need to go out and get another QB, which could be Jake or someone else.


I didn't say why do they need another QB. my points was, why would they talk Plummer into coming back before April? If they waited until after April they could keep the 4th.



Or, this is just posturing to make the bucs look good when the returning bonus money thing goes to trial or arbitration.

I thought this exact same thing. If they make every effort to get Plummer it makes them look better.

Tned
01-12-2008, 02:07 PM
I didn't say why do they need another QB. my points was, why would they talk Plummer into coming back before April? If they waited until after April they could keep the 4th.


What I meant was, depending on where they think they are roster wise, they may feel that if Plummer doesn't agree to come back, that they will need to get another FA QB, who could be gone later in the off season. However, that is just a guess as to why.

What I am not sure about is if technically there is even any way for us to get the 4th round pick. I thought that the deal was he reports to TB. Will there even be an opportunity for him to report to the Bucs between now and the draft? Unless there is some team meeting, OTA or something, how will his roster status change, even if he says, "ok, I'm coming back"?

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 02:08 PM
I haven't looked at the Bucs situation, but maybe they feel they need to go out and get another QB, which could be Jake or someone else.

Or, this is just posturing to make the bucs look good when the returning bonus money thing goes to trial or arbitration.

I hadn't thought about them posturing for arbitration but that's still as good of a possibility as anything else.

I had also mentioned that the Bucs may truly be concerned about Garcia's back.

fcspikeit
01-12-2008, 02:19 PM
If he reports to Tampa I wish him the best, if he doesn't I wish him the best. He doesn't owe Denver a 4th round pick.

It has nothing to do with him oweing the Broncos a 4th round pick.. If anything the case could be made that he got paid up front to fulfill a contract, then decided later he was retiring. He should live up to his word and either play or pay some of the bonus back..



Sure from the stand point of benefit to the Broncos, however if Jake doesn't it really is no loss to the Broncos.

:confused: It is no loss? We gain a 4th round pick if he plays and a 7th if he doesn't. So yes, it benefits the Broncos if he plays.

I'm sure he isn't going to play so the Broncos get the better pick...:lol:

Just the same, if after the year off he misses the game and decided he wants to play, It does benefit the Broncos




Stick to your guns, Jake.

The day a 4th round draft choice is more important than personal values . . .

-----


:laugh: Who said this top? There is no way Jake is coming back so we can have a 4th round pick. If he did decide to come back and play for the "Bucs" it would be because he still wanted to play... Therefore his personal values would have changed, that doesn't mean he would have lost them.

If he came back and played for any team besides the Bucs, one would have to question whether he left for personal values or because he didn't want to play for the Bucs ;)

DenBronx
01-12-2008, 02:23 PM
They might be worried about his back.

I would say they equal as quarterbacking talent even though Jeff has better overall numbers.

The biggest difference in my opinion is that Jeff is a more accurate passer but Jake as the stronger arm.

they are both pretty mobile too but i see jake being a better out of the pocket passer than garcia. jake usually was best out of the pocket. i think plummer has a better winning percentage in the last 5 years though.

gruden seems like he is salivating and foaming at the mouth to get him. i know this is a selfish way to think but a 4th rounder really would be sweet.

DenBronx
01-12-2008, 02:26 PM
I hadn't thought about them posturing for arbitration but that's still as good of a possibility as anything else.

I had also mentioned that the Bucs may truly be concerned about Garcia's back.

you have to wonder if jake even wants to compete. garcia seems like he would be fine playing backup but plummer doesnt. not to say garcia isnt worthy of being a starter, i just think plummer could win the starting job.

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 02:32 PM
It has nothing to do with him oweing the Broncos a 4th round pick.. If anything the case could be made that he got paid up front to fulfill a contract, then decided later he was retiring. He should live up to his word and either play or pay some of the bonus back..




:confused: It is no loss? We gain a 4th round pick if he plays and a 7th if he doesn't. So yes, it benefits the Broncos if he plays.

I'm sure he isn't going to play so the Broncos get the better pick...:lol:

Just the same, if after the year off he misses the game and decided he wants to play, It does benefit the Broncos






:laugh: Who said this top? There is no way Jake is coming back so we can have a 4th round pick. If he did decide to come back and play for the "Bucs" it would be because he still wanted to play... Therefore his personal values would have changed, that doesn't mean he would have lost them.

If he came back and played for any team besides the Bucs, one would have to question whether he left for personal values or because he didn't want to play for the Bucs ;)

Well remember a lot people getting up set because we wouldn't be getting a 4th round pick because he decided to retire. Many acted like Jake betrayed the Broncos. Players retire before contracts are fulfilled all the time so I don't see that as good argument. Guys like Elway, Sharpe, and Zimmerman all retired before their contracts were fulfilled.

You can't lose what isn't yours to begin with so we really don't lose anything but him staying retired.

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 02:37 PM
you have to wonder if jake even wants to compete. garcia seems like he would be fine playing backup but plummer doesnt. not to say garcia isnt worthy of being a starter, i just think plummer could win the starting job.

I remember reading that Jake had commented that if he was going to be traded he wanted to go to a team that was going to be a contender and that he would be the starter. I know some people take this as slamming Jake but it's not intended that way.

fcspikeit
01-12-2008, 02:39 PM
What I meant was, depending on where they think they are roster wise, they may feel that if Plummer doesn't agree to come back, that they will need to get another FA QB, who could be gone later in the off season. However, that is just a guess as to why.


That's a very good point! I didn't think of that. If they did feel they needed more security at QB. it makes sense to know who's on the roster going into free agency and the draft :salute:



What I am not sure about is if technically there is even any way for us to get the 4th round pick. I thought that the deal was he reports to TB. Will there even be an opportunity for him to report to the Bucs between now and the draft? Unless there is some team meeting, OTA or something, how will his roster status change, even if he says, "ok, I'm coming back"?


I was under the impression that he had to report to camp last year for us to get the 4th? Can players report to camp in the off season? :confused:

It would make sense if he had until the end of this season to sign up... But the article didn't say that. I wonder if their correct about the April deadline?

Also, did Plummer ever file his papers? If he didn't is he even considered retired? If not, would he be in breach of contract for not showing up to camp?

fcspikeit
01-12-2008, 02:47 PM
You can't lose what isn't yours to begin with so we really don't lose anything but him staying retired.

That's, 6 1, half a dozen the other :laugh:

Maybe we don't lose anything if he stays retired, But we sure have something to gain if he comes back.

Tned
01-12-2008, 02:54 PM
I was under the impression that he had to report to camp last year for us to get the 4th? Can players report to camp in the off season? :confused:

It would make sense if he had until the end of this season to sign up... But the article didn't say that. I wonder if their correct about the April deadline?


This is my point. I don't see how we could get the 4th round pick in '08, even if tomorrow Plummer said, "I am going to compete for the starting job in TB". He is on their roster, holding out, so how could that status change in the offseason? I think we have the 7th regardless of what happens.


Also, did Plummer ever file his papers? If he didn't is he even considered retired? If not, would he be in breach of contract for not showing up to camp?

Based on what was reported, he never filed them, but I don't know if that is made public, so I think the reality is we don't know.

Yes, he would have been in breach, and I believe their are two ways that TB can seek recourse:

First, fine him x amount each day/week he doesn't show up.

Second, sue him to make him repay part of his signing bonus (paid by the Broncos).

WARHORSE
01-12-2008, 03:19 PM
If he reports, we get the fourth. If he doesnt, we get the seventh.

Pretty simple.

Tned
01-12-2008, 03:28 PM
If he reports, we get the fourth. If he doesnt, we get the seventh.

Pretty simple.

It's the offseason. How does he report between now and the draft? There is nothing to report to.

MileHighWrath
01-12-2008, 04:42 PM
I'm friggin sick and tired of Plummer, Plummer, Plummer. Can't he just go away for the love of God.

He retired! Leave him be! If for no other reason then so I don't have to read or hear any more about The Fake.

topscribe
01-12-2008, 05:04 PM
Some of us want to discuss Jake; some of us don't.

The ones who do can come into this thread and discuss him.

The ones who don't are not required to do it.

-----

Stargazer
01-12-2008, 05:26 PM
I expect Denver to have the 7th round pick when the 2008 draft arrives.

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 05:41 PM
It's the offseason. How does he report between now and the draft? There is nothing to report to.

Offseason workouts?

Tned-Mobile
01-12-2008, 05:53 PM
I'm friggin sick and tired of Plummer, Plummer, Plummer. Can't he just go away for the love of God.

He retired! Leave him be! If for no other reason then so I don't have to read or hear any more about The Fake.

Just don't click on threads with Jake in the title, because i doubt anyone is going stop the discussion just because you don't like it.


Offseason workouts?

That could do it if they have any before the draft.

broncosfanscott
01-12-2008, 09:44 PM
The Bucs don't seem to get it.......Plummer is retired and isn't playing anymore so give it up and hand over that 7th round pick.

I give them props for trying so hard, it's just not going to work.

broncofanatic1987
01-12-2008, 09:57 PM
It's the offseason. How does he report between now and the draft? There is nothing to report to.

All he has to do is tell the Bucs that he will be reporting to camp this year. If he does that before the draft, we get a 4th round pick.

TXBRONC
01-12-2008, 10:05 PM
The Bucs don't seem to get it.......Plummer is retired and isn't playing anymore so give it up and hand over that 7th round pick.

I give them props for trying so hard, it's just not going to work.

The pool of quarterbacks good enough to just step in start isn't very deep. While I don't think Jake is/was great quarterback he's better than many that are out there today.

Tned
01-12-2008, 10:05 PM
All he has to do is tell the Bucs that he will be reporting to camp this year. If he does that before the draft, we get a 4th round pick.

Where has it ever been reported that all Plummer has to do is 'tell' them he will be reporting?

broncosfanscott
01-12-2008, 10:12 PM
The pool of quarterbacks good enough to just step in start isn't very deep. While I don't think Jake is/was great quarterback he's better than many that are out there today.

I totally agree with you on that. Plummer is a good quarterback and is surely better than some QBs out there. If he did come back which I don't think he will, I honestly think he would help the Bucs out.

broncofanatic1987
01-12-2008, 10:27 PM
Where has it ever been reported that all Plummer has to do is 'tell' them he will be reporting?

OK, how about this? Offseason workouts start in March and the draft is in April. Does that help? http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/football/orl-bucs0808jan08,0,401365.story

Tned
01-12-2008, 10:41 PM
OK, how about this? Offseason workouts start in March and the draft is in April. Does that help? http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/football/orl-bucs0808jan08,0,401365.story

I was referring to you saying all he had to do is 'tell' the Bucs he was going to play and that was all that was needed.

Earlier, I stated that only if there was some kind of camp for him to report to, would it be possible. However, I don't believe there is any chance that just 'telling' them would be enough.

If he showed up at a team workout in March, I would assume they would have to give the 4th rounder, but even that we don't know without reading the trade agreement.

broncofanatic1987
01-12-2008, 10:46 PM
I was referring to you saying all he had to do is 'tell' the Bucs he was going to play and that was all that was needed.

Earlier, I stated that only if there was some kind of camp for him to report to, would it be possible. However, I don't believe there is any chance that just 'telling' them would be enough.

If he showed up at a team workout in March, I would assume they would have to give the 4th rounder, but even that we don't know without reading the trade agreement.

The article you posted in the first post tells you, "If Plummer reports to Tampa Bay before the April draft, Denver will receive a fourth-round pick this year." It doesn't say anything about a camp. If he reports to the Bucs before the draft, we get a 4th round pick.

Tned
01-12-2008, 11:08 PM
The article you posted in the first post tells you, "If Plummer reports to Tampa Bay before the April draft, Denver will receive a fourth-round pick this year." It doesn't say anything about a camp. If he reports to the Bucs before the draft, we get a 4th round pick.

Yep, it says 'reports to camp' not 'tells' the bucs he will report.

omac
01-12-2008, 11:10 PM
They might be worried about his back.

I would say they equal as quarterbacking talent even though Jeff has better overall numbers.

The biggest difference in my opinion is that Jeff is a more accurate passer but Jake as the stronger arm.

Hi TXBRONC; I think you're being very diplomatic here, but I think you'll agree with me .....

Garcia is a much better QB than Plummer. Plummer's only really performed at his best within Shanny's controlled offense. Garcia's played well in different teams, the Bucs being the latest. Also, Garcia's much more accurate and makes much better decisions. He's an overall much better passer than Plummer, and so much less reckless.

In Plummer's 10 seasons as a pro, 5 of them had him throwing more INTs than TDs. In Garcia's 9 seasons, he's only had 1 season where he's had more INTs than TDs. In two of Garcia's best seasons, he's had 31 TDs and 10 INTs, then 32 TDs and 12 INTs. Comparatively, when Plummer had 27 TDs, he's also had 20 INTs. What their career stats show, is that no matter what team Garcia plays for, he makes much less mistakes and is more effective a passer than Plummer. Garcia also has better QB ratings than Plummer.

Unless Garcia is injured, the Bucs are making a mistake going after Plummer. But if they get him, then good for us, we get a 4th. :cheers:

Tned
01-12-2008, 11:17 PM
Hi TXBRONC; I think you're being very diplomatic here, but I think you'll agree with me .....

Garcia is a much better QB than Plummer. Plummer's only really performed at his best within Shanny's controlled offense. Garcia's played well in different teams, the Bucs being the latest. Also, Garcia's much more accurate and makes much better decisions. He's an overall much better passer than Plummer, and so much less reckless.

In Plummer's 10 seasons as a pro, 5 of them had him throwing more INTs than TDs. In Garcia's 9 seasons, he's only had 1 season where he's had more INTs than TDs. In two of Garcia's best seasons, he's had 31 TDs and 10 INTs, then 32 TDs and 12 INTs. Comparatively, when Plummer had 27 TDs, he's also had 20 INTs. What their career stats show, is that no matter what team Garcia plays for, he makes much less mistakes and is more effective a passer than Plummer. Garcia also has better QB ratings than Plummer.

Unless Garcia is injured, the Bucs are making a mistake going after Plummer. But if they get him, then good for us, we get a 4th. :cheers:

I don't think unless Plummer played for a third team that we would know for sure. The Cardinals have been perennial losers. QB's tend to do whatever they can to 'make plays' when they are on losing teams and bad results typically happen.

omac
01-12-2008, 11:47 PM
I don't think unless Plummer played for a third team that we would know for sure. The Cardinals have been perennial losers. QB's tend to do whatever they can to 'make plays' when they are on losing teams and bad results typically happen.

Good point.

But in 2000, the 49ers were 6-10, yet Garcia threw for 4,278 yards, 31 TDs and 10 INTs. The year before, the 49ers were also a losing team at 4-12. In 2003, they were 7-9, but Garcia's TD-INT was still possitive, at 18-13.

In 2004, Cleveland was 4-12, but Garcia's TDs were still more than his INTs.

It's his only season in Detroit where he's had more INTs than TDs.

His last 2 seasons, he's taken 2 different teams with losing records the previous years to the playoffs.

So while QBs will force things in a losing team, Garcia tends to be able to do more despite the situation.

No knock on Plummer, but Garcia is very underated and undervalued, even by the Bucs it seems.

Tned
01-13-2008, 12:20 AM
Good point.

But in 2000, the 49ers were 6-10, yet Garcia threw for 4,278 yards, 31 TDs and 10 INTs. The year before, the 49ers were also a losing team at 4-12. In 2003, they were 7-9, but Garcia's TD-INT was still possitive, at 18-13.

In 2004, Cleveland was 4-12, but Garcia's TDs were still more than his INTs.

It's his only season in Detroit where he's had more INTs than TDs.

His last 2 seasons, he's taken 2 different teams with losing records the previous years to the playoffs.

So while QBs will force things in a losing team, Garcia tends to be able to do more despite the situation.

No knock on Plummer, but Garcia is very underated and undervalued, even by the Bucs it seems.

I'm not saying Plummer is better than Garcia, just that there is a long history of very good QBs that turn into 'bad' QBs when they are on a bad team. Brett Favre being a recent example in '05 and '06, 20-29 and 18-18.

There are many other examples. Jake moved to a good team, with solid, if not spectacular, talent around him on offense, a solid game plan, and a sound, if not spectacular, defense. In turn, he went from being a 'bad' QB to being statistically one of the best QB's the Broncos ever had, and leading them for four seasons with an obcene winning percentage.

Lonestar
01-13-2008, 12:24 AM
I'm not saying Plummer is better than Garcia, just that there is a long history of very good QBs that turn into 'bad' QBs when they are on a bad team. Brett Favre being a recent example in '05 and '06, 20-29 and 18-18.

There are many other examples. Jake moved to a good team, with solid, if not spectacular, talent around him on offense, a solid game plan, and a sound, if not spectacular, defense. In turn, he went from being a 'bad' QB to being statistically one of the best QB's the Broncos ever had, and leading them for four seasons with an obcene winning percentage.


I can only hope Jay will do the same or better.. But if mikey does not stop the defensive bleeding that is not gonna happen..

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 12:27 AM
Hi TXBRONC; I think you're being very diplomatic here, but I think you'll agree with me .....

Garcia is a much better QB than Plummer. Plummer's only really performed at his best within Shanny's controlled offense. Garcia's played well in different teams, the Bucs being the latest. Also, Garcia's much more accurate and makes much better decisions. He's an overall much better passer than Plummer, and so much less reckless.

In Plummer's 10 seasons as a pro, 5 of them had him throwing more INTs than TDs. In Garcia's 9 seasons, he's only had 1 season where he's had more INTs than TDs. In two of Garcia's best seasons, he's had 31 TDs and 10 INTs, then 32 TDs and 12 INTs. Comparatively, when Plummer had 27 TDs, he's also had 20 INTs. What their career stats show, is that no matter what team Garcia plays for, he makes much less mistakes and is more effective a passer than Plummer. Garcia also has better QB ratings than Plummer.

Unless Garcia is injured, the Bucs are making a mistake going after Plummer. But if they get him, then good for us, we get a 4th. :cheers:

Yes I do agree with you omac. Plummer needs to be in right kind of offense to succeed and for the most part he had that here in Denver. I do truly believe that if did go to Tampa Bay that offense would be a good fit for him as well.

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 12:29 AM
I can only hope Jay will do the same or better.. But if mikey does not stop the defensive bleeding that is not gonna happen..


You're getting off topic friend.

Tned
01-13-2008, 12:32 AM
I can only hope Jay will do the same or better.. But if mikey does not stop the defensive bleeding that is not gonna happen..

Last time I checked, the defense didn't cause fumbles, INTs or incompletions. That is, your own defense. You can't really lay those sub 15 point performances on the Broncos D. Yes, the defense sucked it up, and he needs to fix that, but Jay and the offense needs to perform better. The offense scoring 15 or fewer points in nearly half their games (7 I believe) just won't cut it in the NFL.

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 01:22 AM
Last time I checked, the defense didn't cause fumbles, INTs or incompletions. That is, your own defense. You can't really lay those sub 15 point performances on the Broncos D. Yes, the defense sucked it up, and he needs to fix that, but Jay and the offense needs to perform better. The offense scoring 15 or fewer points in nearly half their games (7 I believe) just won't cut it in the NFL.

Unfortunately we couldn't play consistently on both sides of the ball and that was for a lot of reasons.

Stargazer
01-13-2008, 05:06 AM
Garcia puts himself in position where he can be plowed & gone for 4 weeks. I can understand the reason for trying to bring Plummer in.

Now the real question is. Chris Simms. What are you doing?

SmilinAssasSin27
01-13-2008, 09:24 AM
Hi TXBRONC; I think you're being very diplomatic here, but I think you'll agree with me .....

Garcia is a much better QB than Plummer. Plummer's only really performed at his best within Shanny's controlled offense. Garcia's played well in different teams, the Bucs being the latest. Also, Garcia's much more accurate and makes much better decisions. He's an overall much better passer than Plummer, and so much less reckless.

In Plummer's 10 seasons as a pro, 5 of them had him throwing more INTs than TDs. In Garcia's 9 seasons, he's only had 1 season where he's had more INTs than TDs. In two of Garcia's best seasons, he's had 31 TDs and 10 INTs, then 32 TDs and 12 INTs. Comparatively, when Plummer had 27 TDs, he's also had 20 INTs. What their career stats show, is that no matter what team Garcia plays for, he makes much less mistakes and is more effective a passer than Plummer. Garcia also has better QB ratings than Plummer.

Unless Garcia is injured, the Bucs are making a mistake going after Plummer. But if they get him, then good for us, we get a 4th. :cheers:

Although most feel that Plummer is the worst QB ever, consider this:

1-WHO took the Arizona Cardinals to the playoffs?

2-WHO took us to the AFC Title game post 1999?

3-WHO got us in the playoffs 3 times using the likes of the much maligned Tatum Bell, Ashley Lelie, Jeb Putzier and even Mike Anderson?

Hate on dude all ya want, and sure his numbers aren't ideal, but he has done a few things in this league.

broncofanatic1987
01-13-2008, 09:52 AM
Yep, it says 'reports to camp' not 'tells' the bucs he will report.

Webster's New World Compact Desk Dictionary and Style Guide Second Edition,

Definition of the word Report:

vt. 1 to give an account of, as for publication 2 to carry and repeat (a message, etc.) 3 to announce formally 4 to make a charge about (something) or against (someone) to one in authority -vi. 1 to make a report 2 to present oneself, as for work -n. 1 rumor 2 a statement or account 3 a formal presentation of facts 4 the noise of an explosion

As you can see, according to definition 3 under vt and definition 2 under vi, I am right and you are right, although you are actually wrong because you thought I was wrong. If Jake formally announces that he will play for the Bucs, what is he doing? He's telling them that he will play. So, I'm right and you're wrong, nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in......:eviltongue:

And no, the article doesn't say report to camp. It says report to Tamp Bay. Meaning the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

NameUsedBefore
01-13-2008, 09:59 AM
Sad to see Jimmy Spencer go; I remember at one point he was in a camp of select few to have been a player and a coach at the same time. The article doesn't really say alot besides that he just left... I guess it was on his own terms?

Plummer should do whatever the hell he wants and what 'he wants' seriously doesn't sound anything like coming back to play professional football.

Tned
01-13-2008, 12:22 PM
Webster's New World Compact Desk Dictionary and Style Guide Second Edition,

Definition of the word Report:

vt. 1 to give an account of, as for publication 2 to carry and repeat (a message, etc.) 3 to announce formally 4 to make a charge about (something) or against (someone) to one in authority -vi. 1 to make a report 2 to present oneself, as for work -n. 1 rumor 2 a statement or account 3 a formal presentation of facts 4 the noise of an explosion

As you can see, according to definition 3 under vt and definition 2 under vi, I am right and you are right, although you are actually wrong because you thought I was wrong. If Jake formally announces that he will play for the Bucs, what is he doing? He's telling them that he will play. So, I'm right and you're wrong, nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in......:eviltongue:

And no, the article doesn't say report to camp. It says report to Tamp Bay. Meaning the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Ok, your rright. In fact, I bet if Plummer just 'thnks' "I'm gonna play in TB" that we'll get that draft pick. Man, I am excited now. Another 4th rounder. It's practically in the bad!!!

WARHORSE
01-13-2008, 04:18 PM
It's the offseason. How does he report between now and the draft? There is nothing to report to.


How about walking into the Tampa Bay front office facilities and telling them he wants to play?

Zat count?


I thought that would count as reporting.

Not sure though.:coffee:


Checking in?

Punchin the clock?

WARHORSE
01-13-2008, 04:19 PM
I expect Denver to have the 7th round pick when the 2008 draft arrives.


Id bet money on it.

Tned
01-13-2008, 04:21 PM
How about walking into the Tampa Bay front office facilities and telling them he wants to play?

Zat count?


I thought that would count as reporting.

Not sure though.:coffee:


Only problem is message board 'thinking' doesn't enter into contract law...

WARHORSE
01-13-2008, 04:24 PM
Only problem is message board 'thinking' doesn't enter into contract law...

Toochee.

Lonestar
01-13-2008, 07:59 PM
Garcia puts himself in position where he can be plowed & gone for 4 weeks. I can understand the reason for trying to bring Plummer in.

Now the real question is. Chris Simms. What are you doing?


I heard/read that Garcia is ever so slight has a real small frame as well as not being real tall. His height and weight numbers do not reflect the real size of the man. He plays big, therefore when he does get hit it is a real train wreck..While he was able to handle more abuse in the earlier years now it is harder to do..

broncofanatic1987
01-13-2008, 08:33 PM
How about walking into the Tampa Bay front office facilities and telling them he wants to play?

Zat count?


I thought that would count as reporting.

Not sure though.:coffee:


Checking in?

Punchin the clock?

Yes, yes it does count. See definition 2 under vi. for the word report in previous post.:D

Anyone using some sense( I won't say common sense, since no such thing truly exists) can figure out that contract law isn't going to define a word much differently than society as a whole.

The real question is whether or not the CBA defines a specific procedure by which players may report to a team. That is a far different thing than contract law having some weird definition for a word that doesn't exist for the rest of society.

Barring a defined procedure in the CBA, it only makes sense that the common definition of the word report would suffice and hold up in a civil court, if a suit were filed by a party claiming grievance.

Tned
01-13-2008, 08:37 PM
Yes, yes it does count. See definition 2 under vi. for the word report in previous post.:D

Anyone using some sense( I won't say common sense, since no such thing truly exists) can figure out that contract law isn't going to define a word much differently than society as a whole.

The real question is whether or not the CBA defines a specific procedure by which players may report to a team. That is a far different thing than contract law having some weird definition for a word that doesn't exist for the rest of society.

Barring a defined procedure in the CBA, it only makes sense that the common definition of the word report would suffice and hold up in a civil court, if a suit were filed by a party claiming grievance.

Spoken like someone that has never been involved in year long legal disputes involving contract law....

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 08:49 PM
I heard/read that Garcia is ever so slight has a real small frame as well as not being real tall. His height and weight numbers do not reflect the real size of the man. He plays big, therefore when he does get hit it is a real train wreck..While he was able to handle more abuse in the earlier years now it is harder to do..

By the measurables Plummer and Garcia are very close. Jake is an inch taller but Garcia weighs a little more.

broncofanatic1987
01-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Spoken like someone that has never been involved in year long legal disputes involving contract law....

No, spoken like someone who doesn't care what idiot lawyers do to try to twist the meaning of words.

Maybe you would like to enlighten everyone as to how contract law defines the word report. I went to this sight but they don't seem to have a special definition for the word report under contract law http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-result.aspx?page=15&legal=Contract-Law.:rolleyes:

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 08:55 PM
No, spoken like someone who doesn't care what idiot lawyers do to try to twist the meaning of words.

Maybe you would like to enlighten everyone as to how contract law defines the word report. I went to this sight but they don't seem to have a special definition for the word report under contract law http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-result.aspx?page=15&legal=Contract-Law.:rolleyes:



87 when they talking about a player reporting to his team they mean physically as in the second definition that you provided.

Tned
01-13-2008, 09:02 PM
No, spoken like someone who doesn't care what idiot lawyers do to try to twist the meaning of words.

Maybe you would like to enlighten everyone as to how contract law defines the word report. I went to this sight but they don't seem to have a special definition for the word report under contract law http://www.legalhelpmate.com/legal-dictionary-result.aspx?page=15&legal=Contract-Law.:rolleyes:

That's what you don't understand about contract law. There is no definition, unless it is defined. Meaning, contracts define things like "person", "reports", "club", etc. at the beginning of the contract under a section called definitions. Hence, the reason I said without us seeing the contract used to control trades, we can't know what is meant. I can assure you that they don't get to pull out Webster's dictionary and say, "your honor, defitiion three of 'report' clearly states that a 'report' is a compilation of facts on printed medium, and therefore my client has clearly made his obligaiton to report when he sent the Bucs the GE quarterly finanical report via US registered mail".

Anyone that has watched football or read news stories about players being fined for failrure to report knows that 'report' in the NFL means to show up at their facilities and participate with the club.


Section 5. Reporting: No veteran player other than quarterbacks and injured players, will be required to report to a Club’s official pre-season training camp earlier than fifteen (15) days (including one day for physical examinations) prior to its first scheduled pre-season game or July 15, whichever is later. The July 15 date will not apply to Clubs participating in the Canton Hall of Fame Game or any American Bowl game scheduled around the Canton Hall of Fame Game date.

Does that sound like all that is need is to 'ring' up the club and say, "I'm offically reporting, let me know how training camp goes"?

Bronco9798
01-13-2008, 09:03 PM
Too funny!!!

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 09:08 PM
That's what you don't understand about contract law. There is no definition, unless it is defined. Meaning, contracts define things like "person", "reports", "club", etc. at the beginning of the contract under a section called definitions. Hence, the reason I said without us seeing the contract used to control trades, we can't know what is meant. I can assure you that they don't get to pull out Webster's dictionary and say, "your honor, definition three of 'report' clearly states that a 'report' is a compilation of facts on printed medium, and therefore my client has clearly made his obligaiton to report when he sent the Bucs the GE quarterly financial report via US registered mail".

Anyone that has watched football or read news stories about players being fined for failure to report knows that 'report' in the NFL means to show up at their facilities and participate with the club.



Does that sound like all that is need is to 'ring' up the club and say, "I'm officially reporting, let me know how training camp goes"?

In professional sports from what I have seen in the years that I have watched them a player reporting to a team means he is physically present where the team is. I have yet to see any team require a player to report by writing a five paragraph essay on "How I Spent My Off season."

Tned
01-13-2008, 09:12 PM
In professional sports from what I have seen in the years that I have watched them a player reporting to a team means he is physically present where the team is. I have yet to see any team require a player to report by writing a five paragraph essay on "How I Spent My Off season."

Nor, have you ever heard of someone 'reporting' simply by picking up the phone and saying, "hey, I'm reporting."

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 09:13 PM
Nor, have you ever heard of someone 'reporting' simply by picking up the phone and saying, "hey, I'm reporting."

Exactly.

Tned
01-13-2008, 09:33 PM
Ok, final point on this silly discussion.

Do's and Don'ts of Contract Law by Findlaw.com:


DON'T assume the other party defines terms the way you do. If there is any doubt, include a definition in the contract.

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-forms-contracts/business-forms-contracts-overview/business-forms-contracts-overview-do-dont.html

TXBRONC
01-13-2008, 09:50 PM
Ok, final point on this silly discussion.

Do's and Don'ts of Contract Law by Findlaw.com:



http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-forms-contracts/business-forms-contracts-overview/business-forms-contracts-overview-do-dont.html


Assuming can and many times will lead to problems.

Tned
01-13-2008, 09:52 PM
Assuming can and many times will lead to problems.

Yep, it sure does...

broncofanatic1987
01-13-2008, 09:58 PM
That's what you don't understand about contract law. There is no definition, unless it is defined. Meaning, contracts define things like "person", "reports", "club", etc. at the beginning of the contract under a section called definitions. Hence, the reason I said without us seeing the contract used to control trades, we can't know what is meant. I can assure you that they don't get to pull out Webster's dictionary and say, "your honor, defitiion three of 'report' clearly states that a 'report' is a compilation of facts on printed medium, and therefore my client has clearly made his obligaiton to report when he sent the Bucs the GE quarterly finanical report via US registered mail".

Anyone that has watched football or read news stories about players being fined for failrure to report knows that 'report' in the NFL means to show up at their facilities and participate with the club.



Does that sound like all that is need is to 'ring' up the club and say, "I'm offically reporting, let me know how training camp goes"?

You didn't provide anything applicable to Plummer's situation. So maybe all he has to do is tell the Bucs he's playing next season.

Unless the NFL has a specific procedure by which a player reports to a team to which he has been traded, it might only take a phone call to formally announce to the team that he will play in the 2008 season.

The trade agreement says that if he reports to the Bucs before the draft we get a 4th round pick. If he doesn't report before then, we get a 7th round pick. If he calls the Bucs before the draft and says that he will play but will not participate in voluntary workouts, how is that not reporting to the Bucs? The only way that wouldn't be reporting to the Bucs prior to the draft is if it is not in accordance with a specific procedure defined by the league.

BeefStew25
01-13-2008, 09:59 PM
I just want to know when Plummer is officially going to file his retirement papers if he is in fact retired.

broncofanatic1987
01-13-2008, 10:13 PM
I just want to know when Plummer is officially going to file his retirement papers if he is in fact retired.

That's what I would like to know too. I guess he either doesn't need the benefits or he doesn't want them. Can't blame him for not wanting them, I guess.:lol:

I still won't believe he's retired until he's sitting at home on opening day next season. If I had to guess, I would say that he will indeed be sitting at home or playing handball on opening day 2008, but we'll see if the Bucs can talk him into coming back. I hope they can. We really could use the 4th round pick.

fcspikeit
01-13-2008, 10:31 PM
You didn't provide anything applicable to Plummer's situation. So maybe all he has to do is tell the Bucs he's playing next season.

Unless the NFL has a specific procedure by which a player reports to a team to which he has been traded, it might only take a phone call to formally announce to the team that he will play in the 2008 season.

The trade agreement says that if he reports to the Bucs before the draft we get a 4th round pick. If he doesn't report before then, we get a 7th round pick. If he calls the Bucs before the draft and says that he will play but will not participate in voluntary workouts, how is that not reporting to the Bucs? The only way that wouldn't be reporting to the Bucs prior to the draft is if it is not in accordance with a specific procedure defined by the league.


So if he calls them and says, "It's a go, make sure you have a clean jersey ready for me" we get the 4th?

Then what happens if he decides not to show up for camp next year? Do we trade the player we drafted with their 4th pick, for the player they drafted with our 7th pick? :rolleyes:

I doubt we can even get the 4th pick. Everything I read last year said he had to report to the Bucs camp LAST year for us to get the 4th.

Lonestar
01-13-2008, 10:37 PM
By the measurables Plummer and Garcia are very close. Jake is an inch taller but Garcia weighs a little more.

Yes I know but the comments made about him he is almost frail and they laughed about the posted numbers being generous.. They said if he was more than 190 pounds they would be surprised. Had the build of CB.

Pretty sure I heard it on Fox sports radio, as I listen to it in the mornings... It struck me as odd at the time, I do not remember who was talking.. They said is a great QB, but was not built to take the abuse that he gets. Was surprised he was still in the league..

WARHORSE
01-14-2008, 01:51 AM
That's what you don't understand about contract law. There is no definition, unless it is defined. Meaning, contracts define things like "person", "reports", "club", etc. at the beginning of the contract under a section called definitions. Hence, the reason I said without us seeing the contract used to control trades, we can't know what is meant. I can assure you that they don't get to pull out Webster's dictionary and say, "your honor, defitiion three of 'report' clearly states that a 'report' is a compilation of facts on printed medium, and therefore my client has clearly made his obligaiton to report when he sent the Bucs the GE quarterly finanical report via US registered mail".

Anyone that has watched football or read news stories about players being fined for failrure to report knows that 'report' in the NFL means to show up at their facilities and participate with the club.



Does that sound like all that is need is to 'ring' up the club and say, "I'm offically reporting, let me know how training camp goes"?


I thought thats what I said.:coffee:

If I didnt make that clear.........thats what I meant. :cool:

Tned
01-14-2008, 07:16 AM
I thought thats what I said.:coffee:

If I didnt make that clear.........thats what I meant. :cool:

Yes, from what I remember, you have been talking about him showing up in person in some way, Fanatic1987 has been saying he just has to give them a 'call' and tell them he 'intends' to show up at some point in the future.

TXBRONC
01-14-2008, 08:14 AM
Yes, from what I remember, you have been talking about him showing up in person in some way, Fanatic1987 has been saying he just has to give them a 'call' and tell them he 'intends' to show up at some point in the future.

If this worked :phone: ------------------:phone:. I'm sure players would be doing it all the time.

fcspikeit
01-14-2008, 02:54 PM
If this worked :phone: ------------------:phone:. I'm sure players would be doing it all the time.

There is no way just giving them a call could work, Would it be legaly binding? I mean, if they didn't show up for training camp could they fine the player just because he said over the phone that he was going to play?

BeefStew25
01-14-2008, 03:33 PM
Jake is in a tree eating grubs he finds in his beard. We will only get a 7th.