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TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 01:13 PM
I don't agree with everything in the article but there were a couple of points that I thought Dave was spot on.

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13752174

Krieger: Bullying tactics bother Broncos
By Dave Krieger
The Denver Post
Posted: 11/10/2009 01:00:00 AM MST

It's only two games, the Broncos kept saying afterward.

We're still 6-2, they kept saying.

Both of which are indisputably true.

Nevertheless, the past two weeks have been a dramatic reversal of fortune. And the only way the Broncos can reverse it again is to solve the formula the Ravens and Steelers used not just to beat them, but to beat them down.

Everything the Broncos did to opponents the first six weeks of the season, Baltimore and Pittsburgh did to them the past two weeks.

The team that outscored opponents 76-10 in the second half has been outscored 45-14 in the past two second halves.

In an unsettled locker room afterward, the Broncos insisted it wasn't so much what they did wrong as what the Ravens and Steelers did right. Give them credit, they said.

"They outplayed us," defensive end Kenny Peterson said. "There's a reason why they're Super Bowl champs."

But teams without that pedigree will try to duplicate the blueprint for beating the Broncos until coach Josh McDaniels and his staff come up with an answer.

The formula includes neutering the offense by flooding the line of scrimmage. Monday night, once again, the Broncos did nothing to discourage this strategy. They did not try to stretch the field and make Steelers defenders cover more of it. Although wideouts Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall were more integrally involved in the game plan this week, they still ran mostly short patterns.

More worrisome is the deterioration of the defense, the unit that carried the Broncos through their 6-0 start. It surrendered only 54 net yards of offense to the Steelers in the first two quarters Monday night, then collapsed and gave up 199 in the third.

"The second half they came out with the fast-break offense a little bit, the no-huddle, and tried to get us off-balance," cornerback Andre Goodman said. "I think it kind of caught us off guard on the first series and they took advantage of it. They just opened up the offense a little bit."

When the Steelers went to their no-huddle with a three-receiver set, the Broncos responded with their nickel defense. The Steelers countered by sending running back Rashard Mendenhall careening through that package of small, quick defensive personnel.

"I think that was definitely part of it," Goodman said. "They softened us up a little bit, and once they saw it was working, they stayed with it and we didn't make the proper adjustments."

So what happened to those halftime adjustments that allowed the Broncos to dominate after intermission the first six weeks?

Defensive coordinator Mike Nolan came through the locker room after Monday night's loss, stopping at the lockers of Goodman and safety Brian Dawkins and telling them to keep their heads up. But seeds of doubt have been sown. The Broncos can get their groove back only by answering the physical challenge.

"Certainly a very well-coached football team," McDaniels said of the Steelers. "Ultimately, they took over the game in the second half."

McDaniels, too, pointed to the Steelers' use of the no-huddle in the second half as the turning point.

"Ultimately, they stayed balanced and we didn't," he said. "I think that was a really big key in the game."

The Steelers outgained the Broncos on the ground 173 yards to 27. Which raises an obvious question: Are the Broncos tough enough to run the ball — or stop the run — against big, physical teams like these? Or are they still basically the undersized finesse team they were a year ago?

"The last two weeks, if we can pinpoint anything, the reason for the poor performance in the second half, I want to say it's getting off the field on third down," Goodman said.

"We did such a great job of that the first six weeks of the season and we haven't done a great job the last two weeks. It's something we have to go back to the drawing board and work on. No panic, we just have to get back to doing our job the right way."

The NFL is all about what you've done lately. The Broncos' lead in the AFC West has dwindled from 3 1/2 games to one at the season's midway point.

The first half of the season is often about schemes and surprise. The second half, as the weather turns and teams' tendencies are documented on film, is more about the physical battle.

To put it bluntly, the Broncos will have to toughen up if their fast start is to end up meaning anything.

Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com or twitter.com/DaveKriege

Superchop 7
11-10-2009, 01:21 PM
The turning point was Ortons two picks.

Period.

Dortoh
11-10-2009, 01:40 PM
The turning point was Ortons two picks.

Period.


The 4th down penalty was the dager in the heart IMO

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 01:41 PM
The 4th down penalty was the dager in the heart IMO

Man.. that killed.

Watchthemiddle
11-10-2009, 01:43 PM
One of the main things McD said in his opening presser in Denver was he wanted to get tougher and bigger.

I think this team has the tougher quality, but complacency has over taken our ball playing ability lately.

When we went up 10-7, we got complacent. They made adjustments and we never did.

I hope we can get back to our own bullying this week and bounce back.

Dortoh
11-10-2009, 01:47 PM
One of the main things McD said in his opening presser in Denver was he wanted to get tougher and bigger.

I think this team has the tougher quality, but complacency has over taken our ball playing ability lately.

When we went up 10-7, we got complacent. They made adjustments and we never did.

I hope we can get back to our own bullying this week and bounce back.

I dont do this often but to be serious here is my opinon of the last 2 weeks.

We got our asses handed to us by much more physical and gifted teams period end of story.

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 01:50 PM
I dont do this often but to be serious here is my opinon of the last 2 weeks.

We got our asses handed to us by much more physical and gifted teams period end of story.

Our problem is not a lack of physicality, we just don't have enough ostriches on the team. :tsk:

topscribe
11-10-2009, 01:50 PM
One of the main things McD said in his opening presser in Denver was he wanted to get tougher and bigger.

I think this team has the tougher quality, but complacency has over taken our ball playing ability lately.

When we went up 10-7, we got complacent. They made adjustments and we never did.

I hope we can get back to our own bullying this week and bounce back.

When the other guy is bigger than you, you can get bullied.

They were much bigger than those in a couple spots in the Broncos' Oline . . .

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weazel
11-10-2009, 01:59 PM
The turning point was Ortons two picks.

Period.

umm... 3 picks... just sayin'

Watchthemiddle
11-10-2009, 02:02 PM
When the other guy is bigger than you, you can get bullied.

They were much bigger than those in a couple spots in the Broncos' Oline . . .

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I agree and we are not going to get bigger overnight, but in the past it didn't matter if the other team was bigger. We still ran the ball effectively and we still pushed the other lines around. Now, we are looking soft.

Now all that said, we played two defenses that have been known for being tough and bullies for years. They have been the top in their class for a long time.

elsid13
11-10-2009, 04:25 PM
One of the main things McD said in his opening presser in Denver was he wanted to get tougher and bigger.

I think this team has the tougher quality, but complacency has over taken our ball playing ability lately.

When we went up 10-7, we got complacent. They made adjustments and we never did.

I hope we can get back to our own bullying this week and bounce back.

I think it hard to be tough, when you pass 38 times and only run 14.

AgentOrange
11-10-2009, 05:54 PM
I think it hard to be tough, when you pass 38 times for 10 yards or LESS and only run 14.
Modified for emphasis.

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11-10-2009, 07:33 PM
Modified for emphasis.

Hmmm . . I guess you didn't see the game, did you?

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spikerman
11-10-2009, 07:45 PM
Hmmm . . I guess you didn't see the game, did you?

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His numbers might be off, but not by much.

elsid13
11-10-2009, 07:56 PM
I didn't realize that average yards per completion is 4.9 yards for last two games. that is brutal

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11-10-2009, 08:06 PM
His numbers might be off, but not by much.

Yes, the average wasn't exactly jaw-dropping. But that's not the way it started
out. I was impressed with Orton's first three passes: medium-to-deep outs. But
then, the line was giving him time during that stretch of the game . . .

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Dean
11-10-2009, 08:12 PM
His numbers might be off, but not by much.

We ran the ball 14 times. Buckhalter 9 carries for 24 yards and Moreno 5 carries for 3 yards. I think that we need to use a FB more often and call ZBS running plays. The Steelers even with four starters not playing gave us huge problems by bringing 8 and 9 men into the box.

Orton passed 38 times with 23 receptions with three interceptions. The longest being a 20 yard and two 18 yard catch and runs.

Our offense the second half was offensive. Three points in four quarters of ball.

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11-10-2009, 08:14 PM
I didn't realize that average yards per completion is 4.9 yards for last two games. that is brutal

Hmmm . . .

Against the Steelers the average was 5.4. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009110900/2009/REG9/steelers@broncos#tab:analyze)

Against the Ravens it was 6.2. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009110100/2009/REG8/broncos@ravens#tab:analyze)

Where did you get 4.9 total for the two games? :confused:

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elsid13
11-10-2009, 08:52 PM
Hmmm . . .

Against the Steelers the average was 5.4. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009110900/2009/REG9/steelers@broncos#tab:analyze)

Against the Ravens it was 6.2. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009110100/2009/REG8/broncos@ravens#tab:analyze)

Where did you get 4.9 total for the two games? :confused:

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http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

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11-10-2009, 08:54 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

So we have conflicting figures from the same site . . . :confused:

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HORSEPOWER 56
11-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Yes, the average wasn't exactly jaw-dropping. But that's not the way it started
out. I was impressed with Orton's first three passes: medium-to-deep outs. But
then, the line was giving him time during that stretch of the game . . .

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To be fair, Kyle's second pick (the real back breaker) when he overthrew Marshall and Polamalu picked it off deep in our end - Kyle had ZERO pressure. There wasn't even a pocket around him yet because every Steeler bought the play fake.

jrelway
11-10-2009, 09:05 PM
wonder why we didnt run any swing plays to our FB and HB's. Captain checkdown did wonders for forte last year.

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11-10-2009, 09:07 PM
To be fair, Kyle's second pick (the real back breaker) when he overthrew Marshall and Polamalu picked it off deep in our end - Kyle had ZERO pressure. There wasn't even a pocket around him yet because every Steeler bought the play fake.

I noticed, however, that Marshall ran one way, and Orton passed in an
entirely different direction. In other words, Marshall broke off in a slant, and
Orton threw straight down the field. The pass went only about 21 yards in the
air, but the defender caught it a good 2 yards over and 2 yards beyond
Marshall. Would that seem a miscommunication, rather than a bad throw? Did
Marshall run the wrong route, or maybe Orton threw the wrong route? Because
I can't fathom Orton's missing that badly. Not over that distance . . .

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scott.475
11-10-2009, 09:17 PM
I noticed, however, that Marshall ran one way, and Orton passed in an
entirely different direction. In other words, Marshall broke off in a slant, and
Orton threw straight down the field. The pass went only about 21 yards in the
air, but the defender caught it a good 2 yards over and 2 yards beyond
Marshall. Would that seem a miscommunication, rather than a bad throw? Did
Marshall run the wrong route, or maybe Orton threw the wrong route? Because
I can't fathom Orton's missing that badly. Not over that distance . . .

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I don't know for sure, but to be honest I feel like BMarsh would be more likely to blow the route than Orton make the wrong throw. I think Orton probably spends more time on the playbook than Marshall, but that is just speculation on my part.

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11-10-2009, 09:32 PM
I don't know for sure, but to be honest I feel like BMarsh would be more likely to blow the route than Orton make the wrong throw. I think Orton probably spends more time on the playbook than Marshall, but that is just speculation on my part.

If it was a miscommunication, then I would guess that the gaff was Marshall's
since Orton had little to offer in explanation. Were it Orton's error, he would
have said so right out, but he would not have fingered Marshall publicly.

But, as you implied, it's all speculation . . .

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TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 09:40 PM
I didn't realize that average yards per completion is 4.9 yards for last two games. that is brutal

Yeah that is bad, I hope that McDaniels and Orton can figure out a way get that corrected.

spikerman
11-10-2009, 09:41 PM
Yeah that is bad, I hope that McDaniels and Orton can figure out a way get that corrected.

I have a suggestion for them. THROW THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD. :D

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 09:43 PM
I have a suggestion for them. THROW THE BALL DOWN THE FIELD. :D

That just might work. :elefant:

WARHORSE
11-11-2009, 12:27 AM
The real problem isnt Orton. It isnt the defense. It isnt the coaching to an extent.

Its the inability to RUN the ball.



Pull the heads out of your rear ends, and put back the ZBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF HILLIS KICKS BUTT IN THE ZBS WITH THE SAME LINE, AND KNOWSHON AND BUCK ARE BETTER, THEN WHAT THE HECK IS THE HOLDUP???????


NOW THE STEELERS WHERE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!

AND WE LET EM OFF THE HOOK!!!

NOW IF YOU WANNA CROWN THEIR ***, THEN CROWN EM!!!!

BUT THE STEELERS WERE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!








:mad:











:coffee:thanks coach

WARHORSE
11-11-2009, 12:30 AM
Seriously..........add the bootleg back to our playbook, and help Orton out with a real running game that sets up the pass.


Not a passing game that sets up the run.

If we had Brady under center, then alls good.

We dont.


When we can line up and run the ball and break long runs like we usually do, this creates opportunity.

Added to the offense we already have, it would be unilaterally beneficial to our entire team.


A Broncos team that can run the ball.


God I wish I were the coach for a day, just to make that change.

TXBRONC
11-11-2009, 09:51 AM
Seriously..........add the bootleg back to our playbook, and help Orton out with a real running game that sets up the pass.


Not a passing game that sets up the run.

If we had Brady under center, then alls good.

We dont.


When we can line up and run the ball and break long runs like we usually do, this creates opportunity.

Added to the offense we already have, it would be unilaterally beneficial to our entire team.


A Broncos team that can run the ball.


God I wish I were the coach for a day, just to make that change.

If you're meaning for Orton to throw on the run I don't think that is one of his strengths.

Dean
11-15-2009, 04:20 PM
If you're meaning for Orton to throw on the run I don't think that is one of his strengths.

Orton's first long throw was way behind Marshall but he was so wide open that he slowed down caught the ball and ran backwards into the end zone. The second TD was better thrown. The miss in the end zone far to the inside Orton was off target again. The jury is still out on the long ball but it was obvious that the defense was completely shocked that the Broncos would throw the ball down the field.

It looked to me like we were bullied once again by a 2-6 team. Correction a 3-6 team.

P.S. I omitted the sure TD miss to Royal.

weazel
11-15-2009, 04:25 PM
what is a bullying attack in football? WTF?

ref, that guy tackled me when I had the ball, can you reprimand him please!

Northman
11-15-2009, 04:25 PM
Orton's first long throw was way behind Marshall but he was so wide open that he slowed down caught the ball and ran backwards into the end zone. The second TD was better thrown. The miss in the end zone far to the inside Orton was off target again. The jury is still out on the long ball but it was obvious that the defense was completely shocked that the Broncos would throw the ball down the field.

It looked to me like we were bullied once again by a 2-6 team. Correction a 3-6 team.

Yea, the defense sure allowed everybody and their grandmother to run on them. Looks a lot like last year.

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11-15-2009, 04:26 PM
Orton's first long throw was way behind Marshall but he was so wide open that he slowed down caught the ball and ran backwards into the end zone. The second TD was better thrown. The miss in the end zone far to the inside Orton was off target again. The jury is still out on the long ball but it was obvious that the defense was completely shocked that the Broncos would throw the ball down the field.

It looked to me like we were bullied once again by a 2-6 team. Correction a 3-6 team.

Orton completed 2, missed 2. 50%. The two he completed each went about 55
yards in the air. That looks just fine to me.

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11-15-2009, 04:40 PM
Orton's first long throw was way behind Marshall but he was so wide open that he slowed down caught the ball and ran backwards into the end zone. The second TD was better thrown. The miss in the end zone far to the inside Orton was off target again. The jury is still out on the long ball but it was obvious that the defense was completely shocked that the Broncos would throw the ball down the field.

It looked to me like we were bullied once again by a 2-6 team. Correction a 3-6 team.

P.S. I omitted the sure TD miss to Royal.


Orton completed 2, missed 2. 50%. The two he completed each went about 55
yards in the air. That looks just fine to me.

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I just again reviewed the TD pass in question. Marshall was on the goal line
when he turned around for the pass and two yards deep when he caught it. It
would seem the ball went exactly where Orton wanted it. I don't know where
else it should have been thrown. :noidea:

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Dean
11-15-2009, 05:17 PM
It looks to me that he turns, slows, and catches it at the 2 yard line.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009111507/2009/REG10/broncos@redskins#tab:watch

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11-15-2009, 05:21 PM
It looks to me that he turns, slows, and catches it at the 2 yard line.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009111507/2009/REG10/broncos@redskins#tab:watch

Actually, Marshall is right on the goal line when he catches it. So the ball was
53 yards in the air, not 55. Still pretty good pass for 53 yards. You're familiar
with the football field, Coach. 53 yards is a long way to pass the ball accurately.

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horsepig
11-15-2009, 05:35 PM
Would you rather he catch it like a frikkin punt and step over the goal line for a TD, or over throw a wide open receiver like the one to Eddie?

Dean
11-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Actually, Marshall is right on the goal line when he catches it. So the ball was
53 yards in the air, not 55. Still pretty good pass for 53 yards. You're familiar
with the football field, Coach. 53 yards is a long way to pass the ball accurately.

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I thought that was the point of discussion about Kyle' possible weakness. This was only one game but it looked to me as though it is not his strong suit.

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11-15-2009, 05:46 PM
I thought that was the point of discussion about Kyle' possible weakness. This was only one game but it looked to me as though it is not his strong suit.

I don't know why. As I mentioned, I don't know where else Kyle would have
wanted to put that pass. If there is nobody within 10 yards, I would want to
split the difference, myself, and just make sure it comes down where the
receiver can catch it. The goal line was the objective, and that is where Orton
put it. :whoknows:

It is true that Orton isn't the best deep passer in the world. But he's not as bad
as some would think, IMO.

BTW, on Orton's miss to Royal, Royal stopped running. Had Royal kept going,
the ball would have fallen into his arms.

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Dean
11-16-2009, 07:51 AM
The Royal incompletion is on the video at about the 55 second mark. It is the same camera angle as was broadcast during the game. I don't see any evidence that Eddie slowed or broke off his route.