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dogfish
11-10-2009, 12:21 AM
Okay, first things first-- this is NOT one of those sky is falling, I hate everything post-loss threads. 6-2 is a good record-- pretty much any of us would have taken that and been happy back in June-- and we're still leading the division. I don't think anyone thought we were going to come through a fairly brutal schedule undefeated. We lost back-to-back games to two good teams, it happens. Not exactly panic time yet, and I fully expect us to get things going in a positive direction again next week-- the lowly Redfaces on the schedule couldn't have come at a better time!

However. . . we've obviously got some alarming trends popping up, and they need to get dealt with before what is now a setback turns into a slide and then a collapse. The top thing on my mind right now is playcalling. So come on, Josh! Damn. You're supposed to be an offensive genius, and a grand stinking total of TEN points in the last TWO games is not going to get it done. Against anybody. It's pathetic and embarrassing. Our offense is shit right now, and it's getting to the point that it's threatening to waste a fanfriggintastic defense. Mike Nolan and the defensive staff have been absolutely brilliant this year-- time for you to hold up your end. The players have all bought into what you're selling-- those guys have been playing their guts out, and in my eyes you owe it to them to give 'em a chance to win.

Your utter refusal to make any attempt to attack down the field, at all, whatsoever, is hurting the team. How much time did Jaws and Gruden spend harping on it tonight? They're right. Hey, I have NO problem with an efficient, ball-control offense. I don't think anyone's asking you to go all Greatest Show on Turf or Air Coryell, dig into Mike Martz's playbook and start dialing up seven step drops 65% of the time. I understand that Kyle Orton isn't going to be mistaken for Peyton Manning or Dan Marino when it comes to throwing the long ball. But when you won't even TRY to stretch the field at least once or twice a game, the opposite is bound to happen-- it gets compressed. Opposing DBs start cheating up, squatting on the underneath stuff because they know we won't throw it over their heads-- and now the screen game starts getting blown up, and those yards after the catch that we rely on so heavily get harder and harder to come by.

I loved all the play-action we worked in tonight, but shouldn't you try a 25-yard post off of one of them? Shit, just to back the safeties up a little bit, even if you don't think we can complete it. Give Marshall a chance to use that monster frame to fight for a jump ball down the field, or Royal a chance to use that speed-- who knows, maybe we can actually generate a big play here or there. What's the worst that can happen? Is it worse than scoring THREE gat damn lousy points???

It's just too hard to consistently string together 12-play, 80-yard drives. Too many opportunities for things to go wrong. A running play gets blown up in the backfield, you take a sack, or worst of all, you ask the O-line to pass protect ten times in one drive and you end up with drive-killing holds and false starts. How many third downs in a row do you expect to convert before you miss one? You have to be able to generate an explosive play to flip the field position at least once in a while, and it's too much to ask the defense and special teams to do it every time.

Don't get me wrong, conservative offense is all well and good, especially when you're playing D the way we are. But those guys aren't unbeatable, and you need to give them some margin for error. There's a fine line between conservative and freakin' cowardly, and I'm afraid we might have crossed it. I hate feeling like Herm ****ing Edwards got hired as an offensive assistant. And even he knows that you play to win the game. The no-risk offense has become the no-reward offense, and Orton showed tonight that he can't play perfect ball each and every week no matter how careful we are. So let it out a little bit. It's not like we have some turnstile left tackle and a bunch of stiffs at receiver. We've got lots of offensive talent-- give those guys some more chances to make things happen, please! We're down two scores with six minutes left and you're dialing up six and eight yard routes. That shit's not gonna get it done.

Ziggy
11-10-2009, 12:31 AM
You make some good points Dog, but throwing the long ball with a QB that has Orton's arm is just silly. When this offense doesn't turn the ball over, this team has a chance. When they do, this team has no chance to win. I would love to see the long ball, but Orton isn't the man to pull it off. Anything past 25 yards and his passes start to resemble a rainbow. This is why I believe we'll see a different starting QB in Denver next season. In the meantime, this team can win 10-11 games doing what they're doing. I don't expect to see much of a change in the coming games.

shank
11-10-2009, 12:37 AM
my argument against he deep ball the last two weeks has been the shit show of pass protection.

our line might normally be cheese cloth, but they last two weeks, the d-line has been the whey.

i'm still worried. mcd seems to be showing less faith in orton on the deep ball than even our most scrutinizing fans. he's literally taken like 4 shots downfield all season. pitiful.

orton isn't great, but with a guy like marshall, all it takes sometimes is an ok throw to get a big play or a big penalty.

Superchop 7
11-10-2009, 12:41 AM
No doubt, you can only do so much with Kyle.

shank
11-10-2009, 12:42 AM
No doubt, you can only do so much with Kyle.

i firmly believe that jay cutler would have also thrown at least 3 picks this game. he may have thrown one more TD, but we still would have lost.

loss is on the o-line more than anyone IMO.

Timmy!
11-10-2009, 12:46 AM
Great post Dogfish. I agree. We need to:

1. Run the damn football. 27 yards rushing? 4th worst since the merger :tsk:
2. Take some shots (goes hand in hand with #1, especially with the PA, can I get a double move? Holy friggin cow)
3. Get Hamilton the hell out of there. He is, by far, our worst offensive starter and semi responsible for why both #1 and #2 are not happening.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:47 AM
The OL is having more pressure put on them BECAUSE of the lack of deep threat. Because EVERYONE is up to the LoS.. pressuring the QB and shooting those gaps, knowing that the worst that will happen is a short completed pass. The defense's (right now) are willing to give up the short slant and make the tackle. SO yeah... its a give and take.

This offensive line did fine last year, when we threw the ball a LOT more. Because they couldn't threaten to blitz at will.

Right now.. the defense's dont' have to worry about Orton scrambling...and if he does, the defense is better off. Orton is not good at throwing on the run.

But are we sure its the playcalling that isn't putting the ball down field? I don't know. I think Orton is so worried about throwing the INT, that he checks down fast and isn't willing to PUSH or threaten the defense with the deeper reads because of his fear of the INT. Thats great when your team is within a score, your defense is holding them to nill, and you are in the game. But the moment the opposing teams take a lead, the defense isn't stopping them on ever drive, and we dont' have the luxury of keeping the dink-n-dunk.... that lack of 'press' is hurting every aspect.

I just feel Orton needs to throw and INT, and us win a game with him taking some chances so that he gets this 'fear' out of his head. Its OK to take a chance from time to time.... really.

LawDog
11-10-2009, 12:48 AM
And what about the running game? Tonite we used Buck and Moreno on a bunch of stupid up the middle plays that went for negative yards more times than I can remember a Broncos offense doing in forever. And for what? To set up the play action? That was effective to a degree, but that kind of conservative play calling is basically one-dimensional. Was there even one pitch? Did they even once try to run to the outside? Substituting a bubble screen for running outside doesn't cut it - especially when the opposing D has seen it, and your playing from behind in the second half.

We aren't a smash-mouth offense. But, as Dogfish says, use the weapons we do have.

Oh, and tempo. Where was the tempo in the second half? The first drive had them sucking air but in the second half, we'd get a first on first down and then run it up the middle for a loss, then a dink or a dunk for 4 yards then fiddle around on third and long for an incompletion into coverage or whatever. The Pitt D was having no problem keeping up with us and we couldn't press them at all. No tempo...

I know that we're way ahead of where everyone thought we'd be. But we've seen what this team is capable of and it feels like it is slipping away. Very frustrating.

Overtime
11-10-2009, 12:48 AM
I think we need to start experimenting with Orton and Brandstater in the Wild Horses. Have Orton line up wide, and let Brandstater chuck it down the field, that'll force the opposing teams Defense to back off and keep them from stacking the box every play, and then they can't take away the screens and short passing game.


also, I was disgusted with the screen pass on 3rd and 10 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th....why are we throwing a 3 yard screen pass, on 3rd and Long with the defense stacking the box with 8 guys, and we're down by 11???? that was the stupidest play call of the night.

shank
11-10-2009, 12:52 AM
also, I was disgusted with the screen pass on 3rd and 10 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th....why are we throwing a 3 yard screen pass, on 3rd and Long with the defense stacking the box with 8 guys, and we're down by 11???? that was the stupidest play call of the night.

i agree with this. might have been the first time during the regular season when i called mcd a ******.


EDIT: surprised that wasn't blocked. i'm leaving it, after all, it just means biker now.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:52 AM
How would Orton lined up wide threaten or worry anyone? because of his great running skills? Because catching a pass, putting the ball in your hands, reading downfield and throwing ANOTHER pass is a high completion type of play?

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:52 AM
i agree with this. might have been the first time during the regular season when i called mcd a ******.

careful... you and Larry Johnson will be hanging out together soon.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:53 AM
Good post...even though I am not a Denver fan but I did watch the game...the problem I saw tonight was for one thing...your D was on the field way too long..I believe it was Gruden that said Pitts had the ball for 22 minutes in the second half...is that correct?

Second...your O faced a very fired up Steeler's D...Them are the breaks I guess...and SD is knocking on the door.

I feel a little at home in this thread though...you mentioned Hermie! ;)

LawDog
11-10-2009, 12:53 AM
careful... you and Larry Johnson will be hanging out together soon.

Self-edit would be a nice move here...

weazel
11-10-2009, 12:55 AM
I'm sorry but Josh looked like a guy with no answers tonight. Orton looked horrible from the first play though. He was throwing high and wide from the first to the last throw. All they had to do is hang around a Broncos receiver and wait for the errand pass...

I was hoping they would throw Simms in just for the change and to show Orton he has to keep his ******* game in line.

shank
11-10-2009, 12:56 AM
Self-edit would be a nice move here...

i already did. keep up.


2nd edit: how do you have so many posts, and i have no idea who you are?

GEM
11-10-2009, 12:59 AM
I think we need to start experimenting with Orton and Brandstater in the Wild Horses. Have Orton line up wide, and let Brandstater chuck it down the field, that'll force the opposing teams Defense to back off and keep them from stacking the box every play, and then they can't take away the screens and short passing game.


also, I was disgusted with the screen pass on 3rd and 10 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th....why are we throwing a 3 yard screen pass, on 3rd and Long with the defense stacking the box with 8 guys, and we're down by 11???? that was the stupidest play call of the night.

Ala Van Pelt in the KC game a few years ago!

LawDog
11-10-2009, 01:01 AM
i already did. keep up.


2nd edit: how do you have so many posts, and i have no idea who you are?

Maybe you should up the quality of the threads you're active in?

I'm that shadow you think you saw when you turn your head. I'm here you just don't see me. Actually, my posting has slowed down considerably because I'm working way too much...

Requiem / The Dagda
11-10-2009, 01:02 AM
Don't listen to her Shaw.

shank
11-10-2009, 01:03 AM
Maybe you should up the quality of the threads you're active in?

I'm that shadow you think you saw when you turn your head. I'm here you just don't see me. Actually, my posting has slowed down considerably because I'm working way too much...

lol. i'm glad you took a shot at dogfish's thread, instead of giving me shit for my drunken, pissed off rambling.

i lost my peripheral vision and got a crick in my neck in viet nam, so you seem to have gone unnoticed.

i found out today i might get a raise. that's off-topic, but it feels good to not be pissed off for a second.

LawDog
11-10-2009, 01:04 AM
Don't listen to her Shaw.

Keep Dreamin'

shank
11-10-2009, 01:05 AM
Don't listen to her Shaw.

should i know who this is? it's a girl? is she hot?

LawDog
11-10-2009, 01:13 AM
should i know who this is? it's a girl? is she hot?

I'd make a hell of an ugly woman. Be thankful I'm not...

I've been around with the same name since like '03 on Broncomania before Tned started this site.

shank
11-10-2009, 01:15 AM
I'd make a hell of an ugly woman. Be thankful I'm not...

I've been around with the same name since like '03 on Broncomania before Tned started this site.
i have repressed my B.M. experience. just like my broncomania experience...


but how do you have 260 posts here without me even noticing? i don't drink THAT much.

i hated west before he was done registering..

LawDog
11-10-2009, 01:18 AM
i have repressed my B.M. experience. just like my broncomania experience...


but how do you have 260 posts here without me even noticing? i don't drink THAT much.

i hated west before he was done registering..

Mostly in the politics forum I suppose...

Westy is/was useful for some things. I don't hate, I just ridicule.

topscribe
11-10-2009, 02:03 AM
You make some good points Dog, but throwing the long ball with a QB that has Orton's arm is just silly. When this offense doesn't turn the ball over, this team has a chance. When they do, this team has no chance to win. I would love to see the long ball, but Orton isn't the man to pull it off. Anything past 25 yards and his passes start to resemble a rainbow. This is why I believe we'll see a different starting QB in Denver next season. In the meantime, this team can win 10-11 games doing what they're doing. I don't expect to see much of a change in the coming games.

Orton has publicly thrown the ball 74 yards. How much of an arm do you want?

-----

dogfish
11-10-2009, 02:21 AM
You make some good points Dog, but throwing the long ball with a QB that has Orton's arm is just silly. When this offense doesn't turn the ball over, this team has a chance. When they do, this team has no chance to win. I would love to see the long ball, but Orton isn't the man to pull it off. Anything past 25 yards and his passes start to resemble a rainbow. This is why I believe we'll see a different starting QB in Denver next season. In the meantime, this team can win 10-11 games doing what they're doing. I don't expect to see much of a change in the coming games.

his arm's not THAT bad. . . is taking a couple of chances down the field really worse than scoring three stinking points? i don't see how it can be. . . let me say it again, emphatically-- i don't expect or even want us to transform into a vertical passing game. . . but you have to take at least a few shots per game, if only just to keep the safeties from cheating up so much. . . .

seriously, what's the risk? what's the worst that's going to happen? are we going to get beat worse than 30-7 or 28-10?





But are we sure its the playcalling that isn't putting the ball down field? I don't know. I think Orton is so worried about throwing the INT, that he checks down fast and isn't willing to PUSH or threaten the defense with the deeper reads because of his fear of the INT. Thats great when your team is within a score, your defense is holding them to nill, and you are in the game. But the moment the opposing teams take a lead, the defense isn't stopping them on ever drive, and we dont' have the luxury of keeping the dink-n-dunk.... that lack of 'press' is hurting every aspect.

I just feel Orton needs to throw and INT, and us win a game with him taking some chances so that he gets this 'fear' out of his head. Its OK to take a chance from time to time.... really.

this is a fair question, and neither of us can even venture a smart guess without being there in person and being able to see the all of the routes that are run on every play, which you certainly can't ascertain from watching the game on TV. . . however, i do tend to assume it's playcalling on most three step drops and screens, which account for an awful lot of our plays. . . and if they are calling some shots down the field and orton refuses to take them, then the coaching staff needs to get in his ear about it. . . we desperately need to free up some space to operate underneath. . . .

Nomad
11-10-2009, 07:25 AM
..

I know that we're way ahead of where everyone thought we'd be. But we've seen what this team is capable of and it feels like it is slipping away. Very frustrating.

I agree with what you said in your whole post! It's frustrating especially knowing there have been teams more mediocre than Denver playing the Ravens and Steelers tougher and we know what the BRONCOS can do! I know the defense got winded and tired but it just seems the players and coaches are throwing up their hands because they don't have an answer. I believe if Denver gave half the effort they did in the NE game and lost then it'd would be easier to take these two losses!! Just seems McDaniels isn't trying hard enough!!

BRONCOS better kick the Redskins around, anything less will be disappointing! But I guess a win would do as well!!

claymore
11-10-2009, 08:15 AM
How would Orton lined up wide threaten or worry anyone? because of his great running skills? Because catching a pass, putting the ball in your hands, reading downfield and throwing ANOTHER pass is a high completion type of play?

Its not the fact that Orton doesnt scare them, its the fact that they arent afraid of our singl back sets. They know the right side of our line is crap.

Zero phases of the JMCD offense is scary other than the luck factor.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 09:38 AM
I just heard on the radio that this is the first time in Bronco HISTORY, that the broncos have rushed less for 30yrds and not scored an offensive TD at home

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 09:43 AM
Orton has publicly thrown the ball 74 yards. How much of an arm do you want?

-----

:lol:

We see the lack in arm strength, not on the deep ball, because that doesn't really show squat.

But on the deeper outs and deeper ins, where he isn't accurate... and.... when he has to throw a ball without having his feet set. That is the MOST obvious of his lack of arm strength. If he's running.... or doesn't get to set his feet and step into the pass.... they are luck to get TO the sidelines. We saw that last night again.

He has a strong enough arm to throw it down the sidelines on a go route....every NFL QB does.

Dreadnought
11-10-2009, 09:54 AM
Dog, I can't put it any better. If we don't unscrew this useless offense starting this morning we can start looking to the friggin' draft. We'll win some more games, in part because we have some dud opponents on the schedule, but no chance at all of us inflicting playoff damage.

Your critique of ball control offenses is dead spot on. They generally don't work because they takle too many plays, and if you take too many plays a bad thing or two will happen at some point. They generate first downs and eat clock but do not score - which means they only come into their own when you already have the lead.

Of course all bets are off against a Slowick defense. You can score in either 3 plays or 15, as your mood suits.

Dortoh
11-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Personally I think we just need to run more bubble screens on 3rd and long.

MOtorboat
11-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Personally I think we just need to run more bubble screens on 3rd and long.

Bubbles rule.

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 11:06 AM
Dog, I can't put it any better. If we don't unscrew this useless offense starting this morning we can start looking to the friggin' draft. We'll win some more games, in part because we have some dud opponents on the schedule, but no chance at all of us inflicting playoff damage.

Your critique of ball control offenses is dead spot on. They generally don't work because they takle too many plays, and if you take too many plays a bad thing or two will happen at some point. They generate first downs and eat clock but do not score - which means they only come into their own when you already have the lead.

Of course all bets are off against a Slowick defense. You can score in either 3 plays or 15, as your mood suits.

Anyway I think McDaniels and Orton have come up with a way to challenge teams down field. Orton doesn't have to his 100% on down field throws but challenge a defense by stretch the field and might help to loosen things up on the short and intermediate routes.

topscribe
11-10-2009, 11:44 AM
:lol:

We see the lack in arm strength, not on the deep ball, because that doesn't really show squat.

But on the deeper outs and deeper ins, where he isn't accurate... and.... when he has to throw a ball without having his feet set. That is the MOST obvious of his lack of arm strength. If he's running.... or doesn't get to set his feet and step into the pass.... they are luck to get TO the sidelines. We saw that last night again.

He has a strong enough arm to throw it down the sidelines on a go route....every NFL QB does.

Orton should not throw without his feet set. No quarterback not named Joe
Flacco should. That's Football 101. If the quarterback cannot set his feet to throw, that reflects on the lack of protection.

But I guess you missed several of Orton's throws to Royal last night, which
happened to be deep outs.

Oh yes . . . :lol: <---- Is that what will make people MHS your post?

-----

topscribe
11-10-2009, 11:45 AM
Anyway I think McDaniels and Orton have come up with a way to challenge teams down field. Orton doesn't have to his 100% on down field throws but challenge a defense by stretch the field and might help to loosen things up on the short and intermediate routes.

That was my thinking. They need to take a couple shots down the field in a
game. Even if they're not completed, at least the defense would know that they
WILL do it.

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 11:53 AM
Orton should not throw without his feet set. No quarterback not named Joe
Flacco should. That's Football 101. If the quarterback cannot set his feet to throw, that reflects on the lack of protection.

But I guess you missed several of Orton's throws to Royal last night, which
happened to be deep outs.

Oh yes . . . :lol: <---- Is that what will make people MHS your post?

-----

Uhmmm.. a QB can't always get his feet set.... welcome to watching the NFL. QBs do NOT always ahve time to set their feet and step into the throw, in fact, I would say that they RARELY get that kind of time. Thats football REALITY 101. If the QB holds onto the ball, or takes too much time.. thats called good coverage, or not finding the open man (which, btw, the announcers showed several times).

I guess you missed when the commentators broke down the passes on the field.. and showed the zero's across the deeper routes for attempts.

I can't help that you think taking a 2 step run on a last second throw down the field proves he has a strong arm. I can't help that you don't see the rest of the play that is going on.

Top..y ou just can't stand the fact that people are RIGHT about the criticisms of Orton when he was coming in. He's a short pass completion type of QB that does NOT put the ball downfield.. has a lack of strength for the deep ball...but completes a high % of passes. The game manager to the ultimate.... to a fault.

Excuse me while I offer a different opinion of your beloved QB. :coffee:

topscribe
11-10-2009, 12:03 PM
Uhmmm.. a QB can't always get his feet set.... welcome to watching the NFL. QBs do NOT always ahve time to set their feet and step into the throw, in fact, I would say that they RARELY get that kind of time. Thats football REALITY 101. If the QB holds onto the ball, or takes too much time.. thats called good coverage, or not finding the open man (which, btw, the announcers showed several times).

I guess you missed when the commentators broke down the passes on the field.. and showed the zero's across the deeper routes for attempts.

I can't help that you think taking a 2 step run on a last second throw down the field proves he has a strong arm. I can't help that you don't see the rest of the play that is going on.

Top..y ou just can't stand the fact that people are RIGHT about the criticisms of Orton when he was coming in. He's a short pass completion type of QB that does NOT put the ball downfield.. has a lack of strength for the deep ball...but completes a high % of passes. The game manager to the ultimate.... to a fault.

Excuse me while I offer a different opinion of your beloved QB. :coffee:

I've watched football for more than 50 years, and I played it in high school
and college, son.

I have my criticisms of Orton. I know him quite well, having conducted an
extremely thorough research on him. What I can't stand is the adamant
bashing that you and your colleagues have conducted against him. If some of
you were a bit more objective in your analyses, I might gravitate more toward
the center, where I would like to be.

But I see now you have gone back to you ad hominem mode of posting. That's
no surprise, either. I know you quite well, too. :coffee:

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:12 PM
I've watched football for more than 50 years, and I played it in high school
and college, son.

I have my criticisms of Orton. I know him quite well, having conducted an
extremely thorough research on him. What I can't stand is the adamant
bashing that you and your colleagues have conducted against him. If some of
you were a bit more objective in your analyses, I might gravitate more toward
the center, where I would like to be.

But I see now you have gone back to you ad hominem mode of posting. That's
no surprise, either. I know you quite well, too. :coffee:

-----

Thats great. So I would think you would know that a QB rarely gets time to set his feet in the NFL. I would htink you would understand that its expected for a QB to be able to throw without being able to step in the pocket.

I understand that you feel you have done 'extensive research' on Orton. But... UNTIL.. he actually shows me that the criticisms against him are NOT valid, then they still hold true. He is STILL showing the inability to put the ball DOWN field. He's still showing the inability to scare a defense. He's shown that he's good at the vey short passes and hitting a high percentage of them. But.. not shown the ability to take the ball down the field. Works great when you don't need to score.

Which is probably why he is 3-12 if teams score a TD and FG against his team in the second half. He's good at holding onto leads, but needs a defense to hold things VERY close. As of right now.. the defense has been doing its job to the EXTREME. Our offense (and no, I'm not blaming everything on Orton by any means), isn't.

But I don't think its a coincidence that teams crowd the LoS and let the short passes happen, without worry of any kind of deep ball.

Poet
11-10-2009, 12:18 PM
In regards to the "The oline is facing more pressure because of the lack of a deep threat", that's wrong. That is flat out wrong. Pittsburgh doesn't typically kill teams with fancy schemes, you usually know what they're going to do. Yes, they disguise it like every other team, but they don't try to do as much cute stuff as Baltimore.

Cincinnati for years has had a good deep passing attack and I can count on one hand how many passing plays they've had over 25 yards against the Steelers. The Steelers didn't just go "Orton blows" lets blitz; their nickname is friggin Bitzburgh for crying out loud, that's what they do. I see a lot of people complaining about the game plan; that's wrong too. Could their have been better adjustments? Yes. Is the best way to beat Pittsburgh a short to moderate passing game with screens mixed in? Well, that's pretty much how Cincinnati and Baltimore have managed to beat Pittsburgh for years.

They have the best defense in the NFL. They are the most phyiscal team in the NFL. You haven't played a team like that in years. I'm not knocking your division but the Charger defenses the past few years have been the best defenses you've played and the AFCN elite defenses (and I am NOT including my Bengals in that category) are a different animal.

Your offensive line got abused. Pittsburgh rarely losses in a blowout fashion and if you beat them you have to man up and be physical. Your two tackles held their own; your center didn't play well and your guards should give Bowlen their game checks back.

You're team is a good team. I hate to remind you of this, but you beat a team who beat the Ravens and the Steelers.

weazel
11-10-2009, 12:21 PM
I think Josh looked into his bag at half time and realized there were no tricks left.

topscribe
11-10-2009, 12:22 PM
Thats great. So I would think you would know that a QB rarely gets time to set his feet in the NFL. I would htink you would understand that its expected for a QB to be able to throw without being able to step in the pocket.

I understand that you feel you have done 'extensive research' on Orton. But... UNTIL.. he actually shows me that the criticisms against him are NOT valid, then they still hold true. He is STILL showing the inability to put the ball DOWN field. He's still showing the inability to scare a defense. He's shown that he's good at the vey short passes and hitting a high percentage of them. But.. not shown the ability to take the ball down the field. Works great when you don't need to score.

Which is probably why he is 3-12 if teams score a TD and FG against his team in the second half. He's good at holding onto leads, but needs a defense to hold things VERY close. As of right now.. the defense has been doing its job to the EXTREME. Our offense (and no, I'm not blaming everything on Orton by any means), isn't.

But I don't think its a coincidence that teams crowd the LoS and let the short passes happen, without worry of any kind of deep ball.

I guess you missed the first six games. Orton had plenty of time to set his
feet then. Of course, you obviously ignored those results.

I guess you have never watched Peyton Manning or Brady. They set their
feet before they throw. They have to: they are that kind of QB.

I guess you missed the Baltimore game entirely, or else you think that they
had the safeties playing deep because they weren't worried about the pass
down there. They were playing back there simply because they enjoyed the
view, right?

Orton has shown through college and on down that he has the ability to put
the ball down the field. But maybe we are talking about two different Ortons?
Yes, that must be it . . . :coffee:

-----

Dortoh
11-10-2009, 12:25 PM
Thats great. So I would think you would know that a QB rarely gets time to set his feet in the NFL. I would htink you would understand that its expected for a QB to be able to throw without being able to step in the pocket.

I understand that you feel you have done 'extensive research' on Orton. But... UNTIL.. he actually shows me that the criticisms against him are NOT valid, then they still hold true. He is STILL showing the inability to put the ball DOWN field. He's still showing the inability to scare a defense. He's shown that he's good at the vey short passes and hitting a high percentage of them. But.. not shown the ability to take the ball down the field. Works great when you don't need to score.

Which is probably why he is 3-12 if teams score a TD and FG against his team in the second half. He's good at holding onto leads, but needs a defense to hold things VERY close. As of right now.. the defense has been doing its job to the EXTREME. Our offense (and no, I'm not blaming everything on Orton by any means), isn't.

But I don't think its a coincidence that teams crowd the LoS and let the short passes happen, without worry of any kind of deep ball.

I honestly am worried about you are you feeling well?

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:27 PM
In regards to the "The oline is facing more pressure because of the lack of a deep threat", that's wrong. That is flat out wrong. Pittsburgh doesn't typically kill teams with fancy schemes, you usually know what they're going to do. Yes, they disguise it like every other team, but they don't try to do as much cute stuff as Baltimore.

Cincinnati for years has had a good deep passing attack and I can count on one hand how many passing plays they've had over 25 yards against the Steelers. The Steelers didn't just go "Orton blows" lets blitz; their nickname is friggin Bitzburgh for crying out loud, that's what they do. I see a lot of people complaining about the game plan; that's wrong too. Could their have been better adjustments? Yes. Is the best way to beat Pittsburgh a short to moderate passing game with screens mixed in? Well, that's pretty much how Cincinnati and Baltimore have managed to beat Pittsburgh for years.

They have the best defense in the NFL. They are the most phyiscal team in the NFL. You haven't played a team like that in years. I'm not knocking your division but the Charger defenses the past few years have been the best defenses you've played and the AFCN elite defenses (and I am NOT including my Bengals in that category) are a different animal.

Your offensive line got abused. Pittsburgh rarely losses in a blowout fashion and if you beat them you have to man up and be physical. Your two tackles held their own; your center didn't play well and your guards should give Bowlen their game checks back.

You're team is a good team. I hate to remind you of this, but you beat a team who beat the Ravens and the Steelers.

You said it in another thread, King...when the Indy fan pointed out that Cutler is 2-0 facing Pitt. Pitt didn't/doesn't blitz Cutler as much. You said that you hated Cutler.... but WHY do you think that is (that they didn't blitz, not that why you don't like cutler)?

Orton does NOT threaten defenses.. thus it makes the risk for blitzing and keeping the safeties in tight negligible. The Ravens and the Steelers both kept things in tight. The Ravens and Steelers were in NO way threatened by the downfield ball.. nor worried about Orton beating them.

We got lucky beating you guys. I'm glad we played you in week 1, and not now. We still only scored a single TD in that game.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:29 PM
I honestly am worried about you are you feeling well?

No. Look. You can NOT expect your QB to have time to set his feet and step into a nice clean pocket in the NFL all the time. Thats just a reality.

topscribe
11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
No. Look. You can NOT expect your QB to have time to set his feet and step into a nice clean pocket in the NFL all the time. Thats just a reality.

No, but you certainly want it to appear that I said so, don't you?

But that's just you, I know . . . :coffee:

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Dortoh
11-10-2009, 12:31 PM
No. Look. You can NOT expect your QB to have time to set his feet and step into a nice clean pocket in the NFL all the time. Thats just a reality.

Wait hardly ever or all the time?

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:34 PM
Wait hardly ever or all the time?

what? I'm not saying it NEVER happens. I'm saying you can't expect it all the time. I'ms aying that your QB NEEDS to be able to throw without clean pockets, without setting his feet perfectly, and without being able to step up into his throw. THats not uncommon in the NFL for your QB to NEED to do these things. ITs not uncommon in the NFL to have a collapsing pocket, or the need to throw off balance.

Of course you have nice pockets. But when the other team is ahead and knows you are going to pass to catch up... the blitzes come. The heat comes, and you rarely have time to have a nice clean pocket to sit in.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:35 PM
No. Look. You can NOT expect your QB to have time to set his feet and step into a nice clean pocket in the NFL all the time. Thats just a reality.

Esp when he is getting blitzed over and over.......man Steeler's D got in a groove and shut down Denver's O......I don't know if I can bare to watch what
they're gonna do to KC.....:eek:

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:36 PM
No, but you certainly want it to appear that I said so, don't you?

But that's just you, I know . . . :coffee:

-----

Top... I never said you said that. Quit trying your best to start a fight and bait... I know YOU, well, too...... :coffee:

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Esp when he is getting blitzed over and over.......man Steeler's D got in a groove and shut down Denver's O......I don't know if I can bare to watch what
they're gonna do to KC.....:eek:

THey were coming with the heat, for sure

jhildebrand
11-10-2009, 12:37 PM
I agree with the OP in a lot of ways. My biggest concerns from last night are more on McDaniels coaching than the actual offense.

They showed Casey Hampton walking very gingerly and slowly mid way through the first half last night. The Steeler D had their hands on their hips early and were breathing hard. That was the time to run some kind of hurry up or no huddle. We also should have ran more actual wild cat plays. We lined up in the formation several times but only actually ran the play once and it was an easy 6 yard pick up. Pittsburgh didn't know what to do!

The absolute waste of clock to end the first half was damaging as well. 20 yards and we could have had points!

Finally, I am concerned that McDaniels may be cutting off his nose to spite his face with Hillis. I know this subject has been heavily debated but it becomes more relevant with each passing game. It seems to me a big punishing back could have softened up their D quite a bit. One thing is for sure, Bucky and Moreno weren't and haven't gotten anything done in the past two weeks (I know who we played). I think at some point you give Hillis some carries just to see if you get anything different.

Finally, the lack of adjustments at half. We were passing all over the field the first half. You had to know Pitt was going to make an adjustment to stop that. They did. Yet we continued to pass. We could have come out doing something different the second half. Or at the least, try something different after several 3 and outs. It was still a 14-10 game and winnable.

By the way, please tell me Berger will be gone and we can get Colquitt back in here!

topscribe
11-10-2009, 12:40 PM
Top... I never said you said that. Quit trying your best to start a fight and bait... I know YOU, well, too...... :coffee:

Thank you. Notice my comment about your ad hominem tactics? And now you
are trying to turn it around and accuse me of what you routinely do?

I would prefer to stick to the issue. But you might find that boring . . . :coffee:

It's always a mistake to try to discuss anything with you. So I'm closing this
discussion down on my behalf. :wave:

-----

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 12:50 PM
That was my thinking. They need to take a couple shots down the field in a
game. Even if they're not completed, at least the defense would know that they
WILL do it.

-----

Complete a few long passes and then it's even more effective.

topscribe
11-10-2009, 12:54 PM
Complete a few long passes and then it's even more effective.

Of course, the point is, from both our perspectives, I think, throw the damn thing!!

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:55 PM
I agree with the OP in a lot of ways. My biggest concerns from last night are more on McDaniels coaching than the actual offense.

They showed Casey Hampton walking very gingerly and slowly mid way through the first half last night. The Steeler D had their hands on their hips early and were breathing hard. That was the time to run some kind of hurry up or no huddle. We also should have ran more actual wild cat plays. We lined up in the formation several times but only actually ran the play once and it was an easy 6 yard pick up. Pittsburgh didn't know what to do!

The absolute waste of clock to end the first half was damaging as well. 20 yards and we could have had points!

Finally, I am concerned that McDaniels may be cutting off his nose to spite his face with Hillis. I know this subject has been heavily debated but it becomes more relevant with each passing game. It seems to me a big punishing back could have softened up their D quite a bit. One thing is for sure, Bucky and Moreno weren't and haven't gotten anything done in the past two weeks (I know who we played). I think at some point you give Hillis some carries just to see if you get anything different.

Finally, the lack of adjustments at half. We were passing all over the field the first half. You had to know Pitt was going to make an adjustment to stop that. They did. Yet we continued to pass. We could have come out doing something different the second half. Or at the least, try something different after several 3 and outs. It was still a 14-10 game and winnable.

By the way, please tell me Berger will be gone and we can get Colquitt back in here!

I'm confused with the Hillis thing myself. Pretty disappointed in that, more than anything.

As far as the wildcat... I don't think we have the personnel for it, and am not a big fan. So I, personally, am glad when I don't see us trying to use it.

Halftime adjustments are one of those things. Do you stop using what you have been practicing, gameplanning, and had success with in the first half because you anticipate a change? Or do you anticipate the changes, and continue to do what you game planned for, yet knowing the reads for the anticipated changes.

I can't blame the coach for the halftime adjustments...because we don't know. I mean, the coaches watch tons and tons of tape...tendencies... and work their playbook the entire week around that game plan. Then at the game, you have to torque the gameplan to fit what the looks they have been giving. I'm not sure it was the lack of change, or the players not executing.

Buff
11-10-2009, 12:56 PM
I think it's kind of obvious that we should have thrown the ball down the field more in both of our losses. But it's not that simple.

We just played the two best safeties in the league (arguably two of the better safeties of all time) and arguably the two best front 7's in the league in back to back weeks. To sit here and second guess the gameplans and playcalling is kind of ignoring a million variables that we aren't privvy to.

If we look anemic on offense against Washington, then I think there is reason for concern. But right now I'm just operating under the assumption that we just got beat by better players and better teams.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:56 PM
Thank you. Notice my comment about your ad hominem tactics? And now you
are trying to turn it around and accuse me of what you routinely do?

I would prefer to stick to the issue. But you might find that boring . . . :coffee:

It's always a mistake to try to discuss anything with you. So I'm closing this
discussion down on my behalf. :wave:

-----

Thank you. You do always try to bait and then pull the "I'm leaving" routine. Its a set set of posts from you.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 12:59 PM
I think it's kind of obvious that we should have thrown the ball down the field more in both of our losses. But it's not that simple.

We just played the two best safeties in the league (arguably two of the better safeties of all time) and arguably the two best front 7's in the league in back to back weeks. To sit here and second guess the gameplans and playcalling is kind of ignoring a million variables that we aren't privvy to.

If we look anemic on offense against Washington, then I think there is reason for concern. But right now I'm just operating under the assumption that we just got beat by better players and better teams.

Fair statement. But you have to test. You have to at least threaten to test.

I mean.... they went against one of the bettter corners, and tested him downfield. Teams play against the Steelers and Ravens each week, and they are going against the same safeties.

jhildebrand
11-10-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm confused with the Hillis thing myself. Pretty disappointed in that, more than anything.

As far as the wildcat... I don't think we have the personnel for it, and am not a big fan. So I, personally, am glad when I don't see us trying to use it.

Halftime adjustments are one of those things. Do you stop using what you have been practicing, gameplanning, and had success with in the first half because you anticipate a change? Or do you anticipate the changes, and continue to do what you game planned for, yet knowing the reads for the anticipated changes.

I can't blame the coach for the halftime adjustments...because we don't know. I mean, the coaches watch tons and tons of tape...tendencies... and work their playbook the entire week around that game plan. Then at the game, you have to torque the gameplan to fit what the looks they have been giving. I'm not sure it was the lack of change, or the players not executing.

I am not a fan of the wild cat either but when it gets you 6 yards and the D is confused you can run it a handful of times. I wasn't suggesting we run it consistently but enough to keep them off guard or until they stopped it.

I can see your argument to the adjustments. However, after our 4th 3 and out I would have liked to see something different! Anything different. Again, give Hillis the ball at that point. It is a 14-10 game, you just never know.

Most importantly, I am still bothered that our coaching staffs have all but ignored our true home field advantage. We should have gone to the hurry up long before Pitt did. We can easily gas teams at home!

topscribe
11-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Thank you. You do always try to bait and then pull the "I'm leaving" routine. Its a set set of posts from you.

No, it's just that I try to shut down a conversation such as this, rather than to
perpetuate a budding flame war. So I will bow out, despite your dispersion.

But I know you like to have the last word, so if you would like to make one more
post on this, I will not be inclined to respond to it . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 01:23 PM
No, it's just that I try to shut down a conversation such as this, rather than to
perpetuate a budding flame war. So I will bow out, despite your dispersion.

But I know you like to have the last word, so if you would like to make one more
post on this, I will not be inclined to respond to it . . .

-----

You do your best to bait first.. always have, Top.

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:28 PM
You said it in another thread, King...when the Indy fan pointed out that Cutler is 2-0 facing Pitt. Pitt didn't/doesn't blitz Cutler as much. You said that you hated Cutler.... but WHY do you think that is (that they didn't blitz, not that why you don't like cutler)?

Orton does NOT threaten defenses.. thus it makes the risk for blitzing and keeping the safeties in tight negligible. The Ravens and the Steelers both kept things in tight. The Ravens and Steelers were in NO way threatened by the downfield ball.. nor worried about Orton beating them.

We got lucky beating you guys. I'm glad we played you in week 1, and not now. We still only scored a single TD in that game.

I think the loss of Polmalu may have had something to do with it.

You didn't get lucky; what you saw was two very good defenses annihalting the opponent's offense. Yeah, maybe the play was flukish but Crocker left his man to put on a sexy hit on Marshall.

Those are the plays that win or lose football games.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 01:39 PM
I think the loss of Polmalu may have had something to do with it.

You didn't get lucky; what you saw was two very good defenses annihalting the opponent's offense. Yeah, maybe the play was flukish but Crocker left his man to put on a sexy hit on Marshall.

Those are the plays that win or lose football games.

You are right, it was a very defensive game. It was luck. Nothing to be ashamed about it. But it was a lucky win. They happen, both for and against.

But I know I don't want to play your team again. Not now that they ahve established what they want to do, who they are, and have gotten on their rhythm. I feel it was lucky in two directions. One... lucky that we played the Bengals in week 1, and two ...being the obvious.

But a W is a W.

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:46 PM
You are right, it was a very defensive game. It was luck. Nothing to be ashamed about it. But it was a lucky win. They happen, both for and against.

But I know I don't want to play your team again. Not now that they ahve established what they want to do, who they are, and have gotten on their rhythm. I feel it was lucky in two directions. One... lucky that we played the Bengals in week 1, and two ...being the obvious.

But a W is a W.

I suppose so. There are a few teams in the AFC that I would love to draw in the playoffs, Denver is not one of them.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 01:49 PM
I suppose so. There are a few teams in the AFC that I would love to draw in the playoffs, Denver is not one of them.

asskisser :lol: (I joke I joke)

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:51 PM
asskisser :lol: (I joke I joke)

Eh, not really. I mean if you guys keep losing that would change my mind. I would love to see Baltimore, San Diego, the Texans, the Jets, in the playoffs. Those are all teams that are either inconsistent self-destructive teams or shitty/damaged goods versions of AFC North football.

jhildebrand
11-10-2009, 09:26 PM
Yeah, maybe the play was flukish but Crocker left his man to put on a sexy hit on Marshall. .

Not to mention Dhani Jones gave up on the play until he saw Stokley catch the ball.

Poet
11-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Not to mention Dhani Jones gave up on the play until he saw Stokley catch the ball.

He didn't give up on the play, he was all the way at the LOS and is a 33 MLB who was never fast to begin with.

Iron Horse72
11-10-2009, 10:37 PM
I predicted we would only win six games, obviousy we will more than that.

RB's breaking off long runs and allowing TD's on three plays brings back flashes of seasons past.

I remember being up in the late in 4th quarter and allowing the other team to march down the field for the winning score.

I agony of knowing we would were going to lose I thought that was over after the first part of this season.

At least the worst part of the schedule is over.

NameUsedBefore
11-10-2009, 11:53 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised the defensive schemes we're seeing are just now showing up. Plenty of people said in the offseason that all defenses would have to do is tighten up and play the short game. The last two defenses have done precisely that and it is seriously disrupting the offense.

Buff
11-10-2009, 11:58 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised the defensive schemes we're seeing are just now showing up. Plenty of people said in the offseason that all defenses would have to do is tighten up and play the short game. The last two defenses have done precisely that and it is seriously disrupting the offense.

It's not like other teams haven't tried that. Pittsburgh and Baltimore just happen to do it better than everyone else.