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View Full Version : OK, so the last two games have shown what I was worried about all year.



scott.475
11-09-2009, 11:47 PM
That we can't stay in games if it becomes an offensive shootout. We have GOT to figure something out so we can score more points. I know, I know, ball control offense, blah, blah, blah, but the Patriots can usually score at will. If they need to score 25, 30, 35 points to win, they can. Truth is, we cannot. We have got to figure out a way to threaten deep.

For the life of me I am not getting the running plays up the middle on 3rd and long. I know tonight is not the end of the world yet, but I am a little nauseous right now. We are very one dimensional offensively right now.

Another thing, did Royal really start getting shut down after the half? He seemed to have figured out their D early in the game, but he was not targeted much in the second at all. Just wondering what others saw here.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-09-2009, 11:57 PM
That we can't stay in games if it becomes an offensive shootout. We have GOT to figure something out so we can score more points. I know, I know, ball control offense, blah, blah, blah, but the Patriots can usually score at will. If they need to score 25, 30, 35 points to win, they can. Truth is, we cannot. We have got to figure out a way to threaten deep.

For the life of me I am not getting the running plays up the middle on 3rd and long. I know tonight is not the end of the world yet, but I am a little nauseous right now. We are very one dimensional offensively right now.

Another thing, did Royal really start getting shut down after the half? He seemed to have figured out their D early in the game, but he was not targeted much in the second at all. Just wondering what others saw here.


That's because they have a QB who can throw DOWNFIELD.

Superchop 7
11-10-2009, 12:00 AM
That's because they have a QB who can throw DOWNFIELD.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________

Can I get an amen ?:salute:

Krugan
11-10-2009, 12:00 AM
We had nothing but play action. We had no answer for the heavy pass rush.

We didnt even run a draw when we all but knew they were coming. Nothing to slow down the pass rush.

Eddie had no chance with Orton throwing off his back foot. Heck Orton's arm strength isnt that impresive when he can set his feet. We have no desire or just dont have the tools to throw the ball deep. Hard to respect an offense that has to dink and dunk to move the ball. add to that 27 yards rushing, wow, this isnt the Bronocos we all used to know :/

scott.475
11-10-2009, 12:00 AM
Yep, that is what I am saying.

Devilspawn
11-10-2009, 12:02 AM
I've seen dink and dunk offenses, embraced the hell out of one of them, but that usually sets up the big play. The lack of that threat is going to KILL this offense. Not just 40+, but 30+ for the touchdown.

But I think it's a little more than his arm because not all noodle arm QBs are incapable of leading scoring drives.

camdisco24
11-10-2009, 12:05 AM
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________

Can I get an amen ?:salute:

AMEN

I was furious at some of the play calling. Furious.
I know McD is worried that Orton cant throw it down field, but he seems too worried. He must be seeing something in practice that concerns him because the play calling is simply too soft.

We have to get back on track next week. I cannot handle a choke again.

Krugan
11-10-2009, 12:07 AM
Ohh your right DS, a dink and dunk can work, if you have something other than the dink and dunk.

Im all but conviced its due to Orton's lack of down field strength and accuracy.

All this O needs, is a few passes more than 15 yards, from being at least compitent.

Then maybe we can see if the 1st rnd pick can run.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:07 AM
I thought Pitt looked pretty sluggish at first..Ben holds onto the ball forever..but once their O got clicking..they couldn't be stopped..some teams will catch on fire and can't be stopped.

Palamalu is one hell of a player...I have always admired him.

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 12:09 AM
I thought Pitt looked pretty sluggish at first..Ben holds onto the ball forever..but once their O got clicking..they couldn't be stopped..some teams will catch on fire and can't be stopped.

Palamalu is one hell of a player...I have always admired him.

Admit it you like him for his long hair. :D

aberdien
11-10-2009, 12:12 AM
In other words, Orton is not the long term answer.

Tned
11-10-2009, 12:13 AM
We had nothing but play action. We had no answer for the heavy pass rush.



I found that part pretty ironic. Different coach, different QB, but it was reminiscent of the '05 AFCCG, where the Broncos couldn't run the ball, but kept calling play action passes anyway.

BigSarge87
11-10-2009, 12:18 AM
It wasn't even one dimensional tonight. One dimensional means you can either pass well or run well but not both. The entire game we could ONLY pass on short to intermediate routes.

Orton looked absolutley lost. A lot of his passes weren't even close. He hasn't played like that since the preseason.

Poet
11-10-2009, 12:20 AM
I hate to break this to you guys, but you lost to a dominant defense. The Steelers have shut down better QBs who can "throw the ball down the field". Also, as a guy who whose team can "throw the ball down the field" I would also point out that it usually ends badly; either your QB is dropping back and then gets slaughtered by a slew of pass rushers or you're basically just gambling on some plays that the Steelers barely get beaten by.

Yes, you have to be able to take advantage of the Steelers weakness, their lack of quality corners. That being said, you didn't lose because of a lack of a deep threat, you lost because they didn't have to respect your run game at all and they got to dictate what you did on offense. Trying to put this on Kyle Orton is stupid- I've seen the Steelers victimize Peyton friggin Manning.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:21 AM
Admit it you like him for his long hair. :D

well I wouldn't ask him to cut it...:lol:

but you gotta give the guy props...he plays with alot of heart...I would love having him or someone like him on our d.

shank
11-10-2009, 12:22 AM
a lot of orton's struggles are still squarely on the shoulders of the offensive line. same with the run blocking... just plain bad. no protection, no holes.

hamilton, wiegman, polumbus and hochstein were all utter shit tonight, as well as last week.

orton and our backs didn't make up for it, but they were playing out of a hole both games.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:23 AM
It wasn't even one dimensional tonight. One dimensional means you can either pass well or run well but not both. The entire game we could ONLY pass on short to intermediate routes.

Orton looked absolutley lost. A lot of his passes weren't even close. He hasn't played like that since the preseason.

He was rattled..that's for sure...when Pitt's D decided to bring it.

ursamajor
11-10-2009, 12:35 AM
Didn't the Eagles lose to the Raiders, and get blown out by the Saints? It happens relax.

I dont understand why so many think that every thing that the Broncos offense is or isn't capable of is clearly expressed in the microcosm of 2 games.

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:38 AM
Didn't the Eagles lose to the Raiders, and get blown out by the Saints? It happens relax.

I dont understand why so many think that every thing that the Broncos offense is or isn't capable of is clearly expressed in the microcosm of 2 games.

Not sure why you posted this after quoting me....:confused:

Northman
11-10-2009, 12:40 AM
Didn't the Eagles lose to the Raiders, and get blown out by the Saints? It happens relax.

I dont understand why so many think that every thing that the Broncos offense is or isn't capable of is clearly expressed in the microcosm of 2 games.

Its sad that a Bears fan is more optimistic than some Bronco fans. :lol:

KCL
11-10-2009, 12:43 AM
Its sad that a Bears fan is more optimistic than some Bronco fans. :lol:

It's a cover up...he's really tickled that Denver lost...:laugh:

Nickademus
11-10-2009, 12:56 AM
I hate to break this to you guys, but you lost to a dominant defense. The Steelers have shut down better QBs who can "throw the ball down the field". Also, as a guy who whose team can "throw the ball down the field" I would also point out that it usually ends badly; either your QB is dropping back and then gets slaughtered by a slew of pass rushers or you're basically just gambling on some plays that the Steelers barely get beaten by.

Yes, you have to be able to take advantage of the Steelers weakness, their lack of quality corners. That being said, you didn't lose because of a lack of a deep threat, you lost because they didn't have to respect your run game at all and they got to dictate what you did on offense. Trying to put this on Kyle Orton is stupid- I've seen the Steelers victimize Peyton friggin Manning.

this really bugs me we have a good pass blocking o-line but we are weak in the middle when it comes to the run. our guards got abused tonight and I felt like we did little to take advantage of pitt being short handed on the edges. Our lack of down-field plays was exposed again and I am not really sure why we didnt use the screne more to take advantage of their blitzing. hopefully mcd. will learn.

Ravage!!!
11-10-2009, 01:01 AM
I hate to break this to you guys, but you lost to a dominant defense. The Steelers have shut down better QBs who can "throw the ball down the field". Also, as a guy who whose team can "throw the ball down the field" I would also point out that it usually ends badly; either your QB is dropping back and then gets slaughtered by a slew of pass rushers or you're basically just gambling on some plays that the Steelers barely get beaten by.

Yes, you have to be able to take advantage of the Steelers weakness, their lack of quality corners. That being said, you didn't lose because of a lack of a deep threat, you lost because they didn't have to respect your run game at all and they got to dictate what you did on offense. Trying to put this on Kyle Orton is stupid- I've seen the Steelers victimize Peyton friggin Manning.

Its a good point...but don't you think they don't respect our running game because they don't worry about our passing game?

They can put a lot of people very close to the LoS, not 'worried' about the run because they ahve the personnel close to cover... while not worrying about a pass stretching the D.

The defense philosophy seems to be, "stop the run with people up close".. and "tackle the receiver after the short completion with lots of people up close."

red98
11-10-2009, 01:14 AM
a lot of orton's struggles are still squarely on the shoulders of the offensive line. same with the run blocking... just plain bad. no protection, no holes.

hamilton, wiegman, polumbus and hochstein were all utter shit tonight, as well as last week.

orton and our backs didn't make up for it, but they were playing out of a hole both games.

Last years offensive line = this years...

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:16 AM
this really bugs me we have a good pass blocking o-line but we are weak in the middle when it comes to the run. our guards got abused tonight and I felt like we did little to take advantage of pitt being short handed on the edges. Our lack of down-field plays was exposed again and I am not really sure why we didnt use the screne more to take advantage of their blitzing. hopefully mcd. will learn.

You got beat up on Ngata and Hampton. Both guys are great players that no one really talks about because they don't put up great stats (their position makes that impossible). I assure you, those pretty much are the two best 3-4 NTs in the game, period. It just so happened that your scheduled played out the way it did. If you had Oakland in between these two games this one wouldn't have stung so bad. I'm not insulting your team, you guys are legit but I don't think a lot of the fans here knew what a game against Pitt and Baltimore really entailed; your offensive line is very good and people assumed they would keep playing like world beaters. They normally do, but you just went head to head with the best defensive coordinator of all-time who coaches an elite defense that has chewed up teams like the Peyton Manning lead Colts.

The next time your team runs into them you will be better prepared.

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:17 AM
Its a good point...but don't you think they don't respect our running game because they don't worry about our passing game?

They can put a lot of people very close to the LoS, not 'worried' about the run because they ahve the personnel close to cover... while not worrying about a pass stretching the D.

The defense philosophy seems to be, "stop the run with people up close".. and "tackle the receiver after the short completion with lots of people up close."

They don't respect your running game because you can't run on them. They shut down the run first and then when you have to pass you get to talk to James Harrison and Woodely.

The Steelers run a lot of zone plays. When Benson ran all over them they had the same basic formations, that's usually pretty static.

shank
11-10-2009, 01:20 AM
Last years offensive line = this years...

the offensive line from the last two games =/= the offensive line from the first 6 games...


part ofthe blame is on schem and coaching, part on orton (cause cutler was great at not getting sacked) but they have just not executed in pass pro or run blocking the last two weeks. they've been flat out terrible.

red98
11-10-2009, 01:28 AM
the offensive line from the last two games =/= the offensive line from the first 6 games...


part ofthe blame is on schem and coaching, part on orton (cause cutler was great at not getting sacked) but they have just not executed in pass pro or run blocking the last two weeks. they've been flat out terrible.

I think your right Shaw, I don't think we can fairly blame any one player until Mckid opens up the O and trusts his players. We'll see...

And yes they must execute better...

weazel
11-10-2009, 01:32 AM
That we can't stay in games if it becomes an offensive shootout. We have GOT to figure something out so we can score more points. I know, I know, ball control offense, blah, blah, blah, but the Patriots can usually score at will. If they need to score 25, 30, 35 points to win, they can. Truth is, we cannot. We have got to figure out a way to threaten deep.

For the life of me I am not getting the running plays up the middle on 3rd and long. I know tonight is not the end of the world yet, but I am a little nauseous right now. We are very one dimensional offensively right now.

Another thing, did Royal really start getting shut down after the half? He seemed to have figured out their D early in the game, but he was not targeted much in the second at all. Just wondering what others saw here.

it's not the "running plays" it is the lack of run blocking. Our O-Line cannot open up spaces on their own, they are getting pushed around. The guys we have did well in a zone blocking scheme where the whole line blocked as a unit, but with our small sized players trying to block on there own it just isn't working.

Without a run game and at least the attempt to throw deep a couple of times, the defense knows what we do and just keys in on it. Josh is actually looking pretty pathetic in the last couple games. he has to realize what it happening, if not, he shouldn't be here.

Northman
11-10-2009, 01:40 AM
a lot of orton's struggles are still squarely on the shoulders of the offensive line. same with the run blocking... just plain bad. no protection, no holes.

hamilton, wiegman, polumbus and hochstein were all utter shit tonight, as well as last week.

orton and our backs didn't make up for it, but they were playing out of a hole both games.

Something else i noticed looking at the Ravens record. Out of their 4 losses, 3 of them their defense allowed a 100 yd rusher. In Denver's losses, they have given up over 100 yds on the ground and not been able to get over a hundred with their combined backs. Something they were able to do in the 6 wins.

Poet
11-10-2009, 01:42 AM
Something else i noticed looking at the Ravens record. Out of their 4 losses, 3 of them their defense allowed a 100 yd rusher. In Denver's losses, they have given up over 100 yds on the ground and not been able to get over a hundred with their combined backs. Something they were able to do in the 6 wins.

Two of them also came against a single team that has had their numbers for years. I don't recall who that is, though. ;):D

Denver will be fine. :salute:

Northman
11-10-2009, 01:45 AM
Two of them also came against a single team that has had their numbers for years. I don't recall who that is, though. ;):D

Denver will be fine. :salute:

Yep, one reason i looked it up is because i watched both games and Benson had his way with them while Denver's backs did nothing. People can keep kidding themselves that its all a Qb issue but the reality is when Denver was winning we were able to run the ball a lot better than we have the last two weeks. If we consider the Broncos defense a good one, giving up 155 yds to a RB is not very good and spells trouble for even the best defenses.

Dirk
11-10-2009, 06:59 AM
Denver's defense was playing a damn good game. What happened was the offense couldn't spell them. Denver's defense was on the field too much after the half.

Pressure on Orton and the inability to run are the key components to this loss.

Dreadnought
11-10-2009, 07:26 AM
Denver's defense was playing a damn good game. What happened was the offense couldn't spell them. Denver's defense was on the field too much after the half.

Pressure on Orton and the inability to run are the key components to this loss.

The inverse of 2007-08, where our worthless defense put far to much pressure on ther offense. There is only so long any defense can be expected to hold the likes of Roethlisberger in check.

This running scheme we are using is a loser, and thats mostly a matter of personel being asked to execute a system that I don't think they can. I actually thought the pass blocking was pretty OK last night (as opposed to the Ratbirds game) so that failure falls more squarely on Orton.

Nomad
11-10-2009, 07:33 AM
The inverse of 2007-08, where our worthless defense put far to much pressure on ther offense. There is only so long any defense can be expected to hold the likes of Roethlisberger in check.

This running scheme we are using is a loser, and thats mostly a matter of personel being asked to execute a system that I don't think they can. I actually thought the pass blocking was pretty OK last night (as opposed to the Ratbirds game) so that failure falls more squarely on Orton.

It did seem Orton had more time this game and there were times when Gruden and Jaws said there were wide open receivers and Orton had time to throw. It's in the second half when the Steelers turned up the heat and the BRONCOS rolled over for dead, that Orton started having more pressure!!

Dirk
11-10-2009, 07:35 AM
I actually thought the pass blocking was pretty OK last night (as opposed to the Ratbirds game) so that failure falls more squarely on Orton.

I agree that Orton had his miscues and issue also. But the main contributor to the loss was the Steelers awesome defense manhandling the weaker offense of Denver.

But hey....we are still 6-2!!

TXBRONC
11-10-2009, 08:49 AM
well I wouldn't ask him to cut it...:lol:

but you gotta give the guy props...he plays with alot of heart...I would love having him or someone like him on our d.

I agree he's terrific safety and I wouldn't mind having him in Denver.

SOCALORADO.
11-10-2009, 09:04 AM
I hate to break this to you guys, but you lost to a dominant defense. The Steelers have shut down better QBs who can "throw the ball down the field". Also, as a guy who whose team can "throw the ball down the field" I would also point out that it usually ends badly; either your QB is dropping back and then gets slaughtered by a slew of pass rushers or you're basically just gambling on some plays that the Steelers barely get beaten by.

Yes, you have to be able to take advantage of the Steelers weakness, their lack of quality corners. That being said, you didn't lose because of a lack of a deep threat, you lost because they didn't have to respect your run game at all and they got to dictate what you did on offense. Trying to put this on Kyle Orton is stupid- I've seen the Steelers victimize Peyton friggin Manning.

Nice post. Some common sense here.
Absolutely right.
PITT simply has a dominant defense. Its their bread and butter, and when its on, its run to perfection, and basically no team can beat it.
PITT clearly wanted to stop the run 1st, and they did, period.
Add into the fact that Moreno was horrible blocking and picking up blitzers as well, and its a recipe for disaster for ANY QB. NOT just Orton.
Theres just no time for plays to develop, which has absolutely nothing to do with Orton. Or his arm strength. Orton never had time to throw downfield, and when he did, he was so out of sorts, he never saw it. Only later, when DEN was down and had no choice but to take a chance, did Orton have to try to force things. Not good for any QB.
Hes a servicable QB, and he has played well when protected. I will say that looking towards getting another QB via the draft isnt a bad idea, though.

This was 2 dominant defenses, and it showed.

claymore
11-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Two of them also came against a single team that has had their numbers for years. I don't recall who that is, though. ;):D

Denver will be fine. :salute:

Our version of fine differs. We are paper tigers. I want the weaknesses exposed and fixed.

LRtagger
11-10-2009, 09:28 AM
The problem with Orton is he lets one significant play rattle him for the entire game.

Against the Ravens it was the first play of the game. He never recovered from that sack.

Last night it was the pick-6. Orton was looking great up until that play. From then on out he was flustered. He panicked anytime he felt the pressure and missed a lot of throws because he tried to get rid of the ball too early.

The fact as, this is a good team, but this offense is going to get dominated by physical fronts. The line can't block it, the RBs can't run through it, and the QB can't deal with the pressure. I still think we are the best team in the AFCW, but no way are we where we need to be yet.

camdisco24
11-10-2009, 09:35 AM
The problem with Orton is he lets one significant play rattle him for the entire game.

Against the Ravens it was the first play of the game. He never recovered from that sack.

Last night it was the pick-6. Orton was looking great up until that play. From then on out he was flustered. He panicked anytime he felt the pressure and missed a lot of throws because he tried to get rid of the ball too early.

The fact as, this is a good team, but this offense is going to get dominated by physical fronts. The line can't block it, the RBs can't run through it, and the QB can't deal with the pressure. I still think we are the best team in the AFCW, but no way are we where we need to be yet.

Very very good point.
Orton was forcing some passes too quickly and I didnt even think about when it started happening. In fact, we were moving the ball pretty well up until the pick.

red98
11-10-2009, 10:14 AM
The problem with Orton is he lets one significant play rattle him for the entire game.

Against the Ravens it was the first play of the game. He never recovered from that sack.

Last night it was the pick-6. Orton was looking great up until that play. From then on out he was flustered. He panicked anytime he felt the pressure and missed a lot of throws because he tried to get rid of the ball too early.

The fact as, this is a good team, but this offense is going to get dominated by physical fronts. The line can't block it, the RBs can't run through it, and the QB can't deal with the pressure. I still think we are the best team in the AFCW, but no way are we where we need to be yet.

You forgot to mention the horrible play calling. (3rd ad 10, throw 1 yrd screen)

LRtagger
11-10-2009, 11:07 AM
You forgot to mention the horrible play calling. (3rd ad 10, throw 1 yrd screen)

Playcalling was bad in spots, but you could see Josh on the sidelines chewing Orton out. Orton was completely out of sorts. He was near perfect in the first quarter and then the pick-6 and it went downhill from there.

He wasn't getting to the line quick enough, he wasn't making the correct reads, and he panicked the second the pocket started to break down.

The fact is the OL we have in place is not a fit for this offense or Orton. This OL is made for ZB in the running game and is made for a QB that can move well in the pocket. We are running a man-up running game and we have a QB who cannot move well in the pocket and cannot throw on the run.

I think the solution at this point is fixing the OL in the offseason to fit the type of offense Josh wants to run. I don't think Josh is going to change his approach to make up for Hamilton.

We will continue beating teams this season with weak defensive fronts, but powerful and aggressive defensive linemen will expose our line. Yes, this was the same line as last year that was near flawless, but we also ran a completely different offense and had a very mobile QB. It is not as easy as the Ravens and Steelers showing other teams what to do to beat us...because quite simply other teams do not have the personel to do what the Steelers and Ravens do. No way will the Chargers, Chiefs, or Raiders dominate our line because they don't have the guys to do it.

KCL
11-10-2009, 11:11 AM
Denver looked damn good in the first half even after that pick...it sucks to
lose...:rolleyes:

Poet
11-10-2009, 11:54 AM
Our version of fine differs. We are paper tigers. I want the weaknesses exposed and fixed.

If you're paper tigers you're paper tigers the same way the Cardinals were.

No, I'm not saying you're going to the SB.

rationalfan
11-10-2009, 11:57 AM
I hate to break this to you guys, but you lost to a dominant defense. The Steelers have shut down better QBs who can "throw the ball down the field". Also, as a guy who whose team can "throw the ball down the field" I would also point out that it usually ends badly; either your QB is dropping back and then gets slaughtered by a slew of pass rushers or you're basically just gambling on some plays that the Steelers barely get beaten by.

Yes, you have to be able to take advantage of the Steelers weakness, their lack of quality corners. That being said, you didn't lose because of a lack of a deep threat, you lost because they didn't have to respect your run game at all and they got to dictate what you did on offense. Trying to put this on Kyle Orton is stupid- I've seen the Steelers victimize Peyton friggin Manning.

i don't think it's coincidence the most sensible comment has come from someone who isn't a broncos fans.

Superchop 7
11-10-2009, 06:14 PM
KYLE ORTON is the problem !!