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WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 06:45 AM
No, this isnt a knee jerk reaction to the loss.


This is a reaction that says Im tired of not being able to run the football.

And I also am tired of watching Knowshon fumble the ball.

The guy puts the ball on the ground every single game, and we continue to play him.
Young leadership model or not, let him lead by example. The example of how you handle being benched for fumbling the ball.


Also, Im sorry but I honestly think Peyton Hillis can be utilized in the ZBS runs to better effect than Knowshon.

Peyton sees the hole.

Today, Knowshon had a hole in front of him, and while it wasnt gaping, it was where it was supposed to be. He tried to bounce it outside by running in the wrong direction.

Hell wit dat style of running mate.

Hillis can pound, and he doesnt put the ball on the ground.


LET THE MAN POUND!

Nomad
11-02-2009, 07:05 AM
I thought that was why Hillis was in McDaniels doghouse...a couple key fumbles and penalties! I'm not knocking the man, but no one would have held on to the ball on the hit by Reed. Moreno/Buck does suck at pass protection!!

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:05 AM
peyton hillis has made much more costly mistakes this season than moreno has. morenos first 2 fumbles were his fault, this last one was not the ball wasnt even fully in his control when he was hit......that was a super play by ed reed not a bad play by moreno...in fact the playcall was worse than the fumble which is why he was still allowed to go back in......also buck getting only 16 yds on eight carries probally had something do with moreno staying in.....the playcalling, our interior OL and great blatimore defense were why are run game struggled......not becasue knowshon fumbled...in fact knowshon was able to convert 2 short conversions something we struggled with all year, and it was knowshon who at least got us on the board....

claymore
11-02-2009, 07:24 AM
I didnt watch the whole game, but the fumble I did see was as much Orton's fault as it was Knowshon's.

Orton almost got Marino killed on that play.

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:28 AM
I didnt watch the whole game, but the fumble I did see was as much Orton's fault as it was Knowshon's.

Orton almost got Marino killed on that play.

lol , but at the same time we were so damn focused on freaking screens playcalling wise, its impossible for a guy like reed to not be ready for that crap

claymore
11-02-2009, 07:34 AM
lol , but at the same time we were so damn focused on freaking screens playcalling wise, its impossible for a guy like reed to not be ready for that crap

This game is a wash for me. We couldnt match the intensity, or execution. Our O-line looked like crap.

I wont be upset until this becomes the norm.

Dirk
11-02-2009, 08:00 AM
I wont be upset until this becomes the norm.

Exactly! :beer:

Tned
11-02-2009, 08:10 AM
peyton hillis has made much more costly mistakes this season than moreno has. morenos first 2 fumbles were his fault, this last one was not the ball wasnt even fully in his control when he was hit......that was a super play by ed reed not a bad play by moreno...in fact the playcall was worse than the fumble which is why he was still allowed to go back in......also buck getting only 16 yds on eight carries probally had something do with moreno staying in.....the playcalling, our interior OL and great blatimore defense were why are run game struggled......not becasue knowshon fumbled...in fact knowshon was able to convert 2 short conversions something we struggled with all year, and it was knowshon who at least got us on the board....

Moreno's had two more fumbles saved by quick whistles/bad calls. One was a VERY quick forward progress whistle, and I can't remember the other.

As to Hillis. Didn't he only have the one fumble on a kick off return in the first game?

I'm certainly not agreeing with the OP, because I think Moreno has been very good to date (except for the fumbles).

Dirk
11-02-2009, 08:13 AM
Moreno is still a Rook guys. He is coming into his own. Learning the game speed and taking his licks.

I think he is doing quite well actually. The only issue I see is QUIT CALLING RUNNING PLAYS UP THE MIDDLE!!

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

CoachChaz
11-02-2009, 08:16 AM
No one fumbled more in his first 2 years than Adrian Petersen. I dont recall anyone benching him.

I agree it's frustrating, but it will get fixed.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 08:26 AM
Moreno's had two more fumbles saved by quick whistles/bad calls. One was a VERY quick forward progress whistle, and I can't remember the other.

As to Hillis. Didn't he only have the one fumble on a kick off return in the first game?

I'm certainly not agreeing with the OP, because I think Moreno has been very good to date (except for the fumbles).

Exactly - and the one fumble Hillis had on the KO return was the only fumble of his professional career. The idea of "fumbles" causing him to be in a doghouse is absurd.

CoachChaz
11-02-2009, 08:37 AM
Exactly - and the one fumble Hillis had on the KO return was the only fumble of his professional career. The idea of "fumbles" causing him to be in a doghouse is absurd.

It obviously has more to it than one fumble and a few ST penalties. But we know Josh isnt stupid and plans well for games, so all we can do is trust the fact that there are reasons why Peyton isnt playing.

HORSEPOWER 56
11-02-2009, 08:44 AM
Moreno got lit up by the best Safety in the game before he got to secure the ball. That's why he fumbled.

Who would you guys like to see? Moreno had a better YPC average than Buck did yesterday, getting more yards on fewer carries. I agree that we should get Hillis more involved, specifically in the passing game, but I do not think he's "better" than Moreno as a pure rusher.

We are not committed to really running the football right now. A lot of our running plays come out of a shotgun spread formation where the back has to rely on the defense thinking pass. If they play run, the RB is screwed because there are 7-8 defenders vs 5 O-linemen. We aren't playing smash-mouth football, we're finessing the running game (part of the new scheme). I don't think changing up RBs will help this at all.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 09:12 AM
It obviously has more to it than one fumble and a few ST penalties. But we know Josh isnt stupid and plans well for games, so all we can do is trust the fact that there are reasons why Peyton isnt playing.

I agree; I have to assume there are valid reasons too.


No one fumbled more in his first 2 years than Adrian Petersen. I dont recall anyone benching him.

I agree as well. OTOH, I have seen no signs of Peterson-like talent from Moreno as of yet. You can tolerate fumbles and such from a guy like AP, but Moreno looks much like any other back we've had in here over the past few years to be perfectly honest. I keep waiting for him to have a break out game, but so far what I've seen is a perfectly fine tailback who gains nearly 4 yards per carry. As such he is just the next in a line of succession going back to Olandis Gary, and fumbles are more unforgivable in a perfectly ordinary back.


Moreno got lit up by the best Safety in the game before he got to secure the ball. That's why he fumbled.

That hit Reed put on him was brutal. I don't hold that fumble against him, because I doubt anyone in the game would have hung onto that ball

broncophan
11-02-2009, 09:16 AM
No, this isnt a knee jerk reaction to the loss.


This is a reaction that says Im tired of not being able to run the football.

And I also am tired of watching Knowshon fumble the ball.

The guy puts the ball on the ground every single game, and we continue to play him.
Young leadership model or not, let him lead by example. The example of how you handle being benched for fumbling the ball.


Also, Im sorry but I honestly think Peyton Hillis can be utilized in the ZBS runs to better effect than Knowshon.

Peyton sees the hole.

Today, Knowshon had a hole in front of him, and while it wasnt gaping, it was where it was supposed to be. He tried to bounce it outside by running in the wrong direction.

Hell wit dat style of running mate.

Hillis can pound, and he doesnt put the ball on the ground.


LET THE MAN POUND!

"Tired of not being able to run the football"...???........hell....I thought we have been running the ball well this year....so far.....have to watch the fumbles though.

Can't blame him on the one where Reed hit him though....I imagine Moreno had to change his underpants after that hit.........

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 09:23 AM
Give me a freaking break. There is no way you can blame Moreno for that fumble yesterday. First of all, I think it was an incomplete pass, but even so, he had the best safety in the NFL running full speed at him and he made a great play. The other guys get paid too, ya know. Plus, like was said earlier, the way Orton hung him out there he really didn't have a chance.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 09:25 AM
How can you people try and justify this latest fumble?!?!? A fumble is a fumble!!! The kid has major issues holding on to the ball. He is as much a liability as an asset to our team right now.
Also Peterson might have fumbling issues as well but his is 10XX time RB Moreno is.

Take the orange glasses off guys, our #1 draft pick RB isn't that damn good.

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 09:31 AM
How can you people try and justify this latest fumble?!?!? A fumble is a fumble!!! The kid has major issues holding on to the ball. He is as much a liability as an asset to our team right now.
Also Peterson might have fumbling issues as well but his is 10XX time RB Moreno is.

Take the orange glasses off guys, our #1 draft pick RB isn't that damn good.

Tell me what Moreno should have done differently on the play. He made a nice catch, and the second he turned around he had Ed Reed coming at him full speed. He really didn't have a chance on that play. Orton deserves just as much criticism for hanging him out to dry like that and McDaniels deserves just as much of the criticism for calling the same predictable little screen pass all day.

broncophan
11-02-2009, 09:35 AM
How can you people try and justify this latest fumble?!?!? A fumble is a fumble!!! The kid has major issues holding on to the ball. He is as much a liability as an asset to our team right now.
Also Peterson might have fumbling issues as well but his is 10XX time RB Moreno is.

Take the orange glasses off guys, our #1 draft pick RB isn't that damn good.

Lol.....I think you have been out in that Fla. sun way too long.......:rolleyes:

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 09:36 AM
Tell me what Moreno should have done differently on the play. He made a nice catch, and the second he turned around he had Ed Reed coming at him full speed. He really didn't have a chance on that play. Orton deserves just as much criticism for hanging him out to dry like that and McDaniels deserves just as much of the criticism for calling the same predictable little screen pass all day.

He could have held on to the ball. Granted it was a good hit in the right place but those hits happen a lot in the NFL. I agree the Orton and Mcd share in the blame but I don't agree with people giving Moreno the "ok pass' to keep fumbling. It's getting really old, really quick.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Lol.....I think you have been out in that Fla. sun way too long.......:rolleyes:

Which part makes you say that?

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 09:39 AM
He could have held on to the ball. Granted it was a good hit in the right place but those hits happen a lot in the NFL. I agree the Orton and Mcd share in the blame but I don't agree with people giving Moreno the "ok pass' to keep fumbling. It's getting really old, really quick.

No one is giving him the "ok" to keep fumbling, but on that one specific play I think just about any RB in the league would have fumbled. If you look at the play he didn't have TIME to secure the ball. The second he got control of it he was getting blasted by a full speed Ed Reed. Now his prior fumbles are definitely his fault and should be corrected but I give him very little of the blame for that one particular play.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 09:43 AM
No one is giving him the "ok" to keep fumbling, but on that one specific play I think just about any RB in the league would have fumbled. If you look at the play he didn't have TIME to secure the ball. The second he got control of it he was getting blasted by a full speed Ed Reed. Now his prior fumbles are definitely his fault and should be corrected but I give him very little of the blame for that one particular play.

Agreed - I don't hold that one fumble against him in all fairness. Apart from that he does not look like any kind of upgrade over the guys we fielded last year though. Maybe moving away from the ZBS has hurt our running game that much, but prior to yesterday Buck had been superb behind this line and in this scheme so I don't think thats a complete answer.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 09:51 AM
So do you guys honesly feel Moreno doesn't have a fumbling issue?

NightTrainLayne
11-02-2009, 10:03 AM
So do you guys honesly feel Moreno doesn't have a fumbling issue?

Nobody's said that. Just sayin' that most any back, even those without fumbling issues, would have lost that particular ball.

Traveler
11-02-2009, 10:04 AM
Apart from that he does not look like any kind of upgrade over the guys we fielded last year though.

Wow! Are you saying Moreno isn't much of an upgrade over Torain, Hall, T. Bell?

I think that mini holdout in training camp hurt him a lot. He still hasn't adjusted to the speed of the game yet, or his vision is lousy. I tend to go with the former.

My biggest concern with Moreno is that he keeps running into the back of his linemen.

He did flash some of the ability we are expecting to see on the one run up the gut when Kuper sealed off his man and Moreno made the proper cut.

Give him some time. It's coming.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Wow! Are you saying Moreno isn't much of an upgrade over Torain, Hall, T. Bell?

I think that mini holdout in training camp hurt him a lot. He still hasn't adjusted to the speed of the game yet, or his vision is lousy. I tend to go with the former.

My biggest concern with Moreno is that he keeps running into the back of his linemen.

He did flash some of the ability we are expecting to see on the one run up the gut when Kuper sealed off his man and Moreno made the proper cut.

Give him some time. It's coming.

He is T. Bell without the breakaway threat and less ball security - so far at least. I really liked Tatum Bell to be honest, so I'm not the right guy to ask. Torain? Who knows, because he was betrayed by his own fragile body and is destined to be a trivia question for Bronco history geeks. Hall? I agree Moreno > Hall.

I agree that was a nice run, FWIW

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 10:29 AM
I would without hesitation say Moreon is no better than T Bell or Mike Bell. I didn't see enough of Torain. I'd take Mike Bell over Moreno any day of the week. I understand he is rookie and it does take time BUT Mike Bell was better as a undrafted rookie than our top RB taken in the draft #1 draft pick. The kid doesn't have the vision or break away speed I'd expect in a RB taken so high in the draft.

Sorry, I understand the kid took a good lick in a bad spot but there is NEVER an excused fumble. The kid has fumbled too much this season and I don't see it getting better.

jrelway
11-02-2009, 10:30 AM
lol. too funny. calling for his head after 7 games into the season in his rookie year.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 10:42 AM
lol. too funny. calling for his head after 7 games into the season in his rookie year.

I'm not calling for his head at all, just don't feel he has lived up to the hype nor feel he is our best option at RB. At this point I would like to see more Buck, Jordan and Hillis.
I have been unimpressed with Moreno this season and have been vocal in doing so.

scott.475
11-02-2009, 10:46 AM
His fumbles are irritating, he is losing balls almost each game. Even if we don't lose possession, they sure as heck cost us yards.

Anyway, thinking about it more, I think yesterday would have been a good game to get Hillis more involved, if there had been any decent adjustments. He is a far better blocker than Moreno or Bucky, and given the pressure we were receiving yesterday they should have had him in for better protection of the QB. He did have a couple good plays yesterday, so maybe he is working his way back into some more play time.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm not calling for his head at all, just don't feel he has lived up to the hype nor feel he is our best option at RB. At this point I would like to see more Buck, Jordan and Hillis.
I have been unimpressed with Moreno this season and have been vocal in doing so.

Lamant Jordan is a stiff and a waste of a roster spot. Apart from that I agree.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 10:59 AM
I didnt watch the whole game, but the fumble I did see was as much Orton's fault as it was Knowshon's.

Orton almost got Marino killed on that play.

That fumble was not Orton's fault, and it was not Knowshon's fault.

It was Reed's fault.

It was just a superstar play by a superstar.

-----

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Lamant Jordan is a stiff and a waste of a roster spot. Apart from that I agree.

For the most part I agree but I felt the same about Pittman last year until he got his chance to run. I'm open to giving Jordan and Hillis a shot at this point.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Lamant Jordan is a stiff and a waste of a roster spot. Apart from that I agree.

I agree about Jordan. He just looks slow--no burst to the hole, and when the
opposition hits him, he does not seem to drive like a 240 lb. back. Walker was
much quicker and faster, much more elusive, and even seemed to play with more
power. Why don't they jettison Jordan and bring Walker up from the practice
squad?

-----

GEM
11-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Hillis was in the game yesterday. What we all initially thought. Larsen gets back and we see Hillis on offense.

underrated29
11-02-2009, 11:14 AM
We all need to realize that we are not running the zbs anymore. Yes, we still do it, and we do a form, but its not our thing. We will not be able to run the ball like years past, because josh has changed that.

Moreno is built for the zbs. He would be absolutely a monster if we could open up lanes for him. As it is, he has to usually make a move at or behind our line of scrimmage. From there he hardly ever has any blockers at the second level for him. So he ends up getting about 4ypc. as the LB can clean him up.


Its more about scheme than anything guys. Get used to it. We arent going to be able to run really really well in the new system. We can still run well, but not what we were used too.

Also we need to stretch the field, keep 8 guys out of the box. We are often running into 8-9 in the box.

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 11:17 AM
I'm honestly baffeled at what I am reading in this thread. Just a few weeks ago 90% of the board was talking about what a great pick he was and how he has been the offensive rookie of the year so far. Now, he has one fumble on a great play by Reed and suddenly he's no better than what we had last year? Give me a break.

He has shown great flashes this year and he makes at least one or two runs a game that make me go wow. Sure he makes mistakes, but what running back doesn't? Especially as a rookie. I seem to remember Tiki Barber having a fumbling problem and he turned out ok. Ball security is something that can be fixed and I have no doubt it will be over time.

But geez, he is on pace to rush for almost 1000 yards, as a rookie, while splitting carries with 2 other backs, but some on here want to say he's no better or even worse than Ryan Torain or Tatum freaking Bell. Child, please.

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 11:19 AM
So do you guys honesly feel Moreno doesn't have a fumbling issue?

Are you reading anything that is being said in this thread? No one is saying that he hasn't had a fumbling issue this year. We are saying that in this ONE instance, there wasn't really much he could have done to have prevented that fumble. How hard is that to understand?

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 11:21 AM
I'm honestly baffeled at what I am reading in this thread. Just a few weeks ago 90% of the board was talking about what a great pick he was and how he has been the offensive rookie of the year so far. Now, he has one fumble on a great play by Reed and suddenly he's no better than what we had last year? Give me a break.

He has shown great flashes this year and he makes at least one or two runs a game that make me go wow. Sure he makes mistakes, but what running back doesn't? Especially as a rookie. I seem to remember Tiki Barber having a fumbling problem and he turned out ok. Ball security is something that can be fixed and I have no doubt it will be over time.

But geez, he is on pace to rush for almost 1000 yards, as a rookie, while splitting carries with 2 other backs, but some on here want to say he's no better or even worse than Ryan Torain or Tatum freaking Bell. Child, please.

No, I have been consistent. I never wanted to pick Moreno, never liked the pick, have never seen anything from him to make me think I was wrong about that. Its not personally directed at Moreno, because I almost never believe in picking a RB with a #1 pick. And yes, he does not look as good as Tatum Bell as of yet. That has zip to do with a perfectly understandable fumble at Ed Reed's hands yesterday.

BroncoWave
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
There's a reason Tatum Bell isn't in the NFL anymore. Just saying.

He was a product of the ZBS if I have ever seen one. Moreno is twice the running back that Tatum Bell could ever be. Other than speed, Tatum Bell has absolutely nothing on Moreno.

smith49
11-02-2009, 11:36 AM
i love km, i think he has been awesome, as well as bucky. i do think he needs to secure the ball better, but im sure he knows that as well. i do wish we could see a little more of hillis. he could really help this team if he could just get the chance.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 11:47 AM
Are you reading anything that is being said in this thread? No one is saying that he hasn't had a fumbling issue this year. We are saying that in this ONE instance, there wasn't really much he could have done to have prevented that fumble. How hard is that to understand?

OK, lets revisit this thread when/if he fumbles again next week or continues what is clearly a pattern in the weeks to come. I would LOVE to eat crow on this subject, I want the kid to suceed because the Broncos will benifit as a result. BUT to date I am unimpressed with Moreno so I'm voicing my opinion on this forum. My opinion might not be with the majority on this thread but it's my opinion and I'm not wavering on it.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 11:52 AM
SOrry.. I"m not buying into the "playcalling" as a problem here. These are the same coaches that evaluated every team in the past, and they are the same coaches that called every game in the past. Its execution. I don't know why people on the board feel that they have a better grasp of the offense, the scheme, and the game plan... not to mention knowing what they worked on and how well they executed in practice, than the coaches do.

Play calling was NOT the problem with this loss. The Ravens just did a better job of executing than we did this week. They did a better job of Implementing their game plan, than we did.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 11:54 AM
I also don't believe that there wasn't anything he could have done to prevent the fumble. He had it in his posession... so hang onto the ball. Thats how you avoid the fumbles. Players do it ALLLL the time with hard hits. Welcome to the NFL.

However, as it was pointed out earlier..... the double pump by the QB telling he entire defense where he was about to throw the ball didn't help out Moreno there. I think Orton should buy Moreno dinner for that one :lol:

dogfish
11-02-2009, 12:12 PM
war, chill out and go drink some pineapple liquor. . .


you guys are trippin'-- knowshon's going to be fine. . . .

MasterShake
11-02-2009, 12:32 PM
war, chill out and go drink some pineapple liquor. . .


you guys are trippin'-- knowshon's going to be fine. . . .

Yup. 6 good games didn't make us a good team and one bad one doesn't make us suck. You are judged by how you finish, not how you start. That applies to this team, and players like Knowshon. Lets save this kind of talk and analyzing for the long, horrible off season and enjoy the cool autumn air and the fact that our beloved Broncos are 6-1!

Buuut... if we come out and lay an egg at home next Monday on national TV against a team we should be able to beat, by all means. :D

I'm actually happy we got a loss yesterday, how teams react after getting spanked is a good gauge of who they are. Will they cry and run to their rooms, or will they focus with laser-like intensity on the defending Super Bowl champions? I'm guessing the latter!:salute:

We'd better, the Chargers are only a couple games behind again! If we hand them the division again I might get drunk and take a swing at a cop.

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2009, 12:35 PM
I'm a little tired of him fumbling too. I get nervous and hold my breath every time Knowshon touches the ball.

The Adrian Peterson comparison is a joke. Knowshon is a very good young talent, but he isn't anywhere in the realm of an Adrian Peterson.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Someone pointed out that Hillis got into the 'doghouse' because of fumbles. How come the same isn't the case with Moreno? I know why. One was a 6th round pick and the other a 1st. One was a 'past coaches selection'.. the other is tagged to 'this coaches first pick'....

In all honesty.... Moreno can't be putting the ball on the ground. WILL he be fine....probably so. No reason to doubt a young kid in his rookie year. But its a pattern already with Moreno... so far (not meaning I believe it will be one for the rest of his career). But, right now, its a problem and one that we should be concerned about.

I have nothing against the kid. I don't think he was the right player to take in the first round, but thats not HIS fault. He can't select where he is taken and by whom. But fumbling the ball IS his fault. Yes... this particular play had a couple things working against him (a double pump, and a hard hit)...but thats still no excuse.

Do we sit him? I don't know. What are we gaining with him over our other RBs? Nothing from what I've seen.... so far.

Requiem / The Dagda
11-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Growing pains, he'll get better.

honz
11-02-2009, 12:36 PM
Moreno's had two more fumbles saved by quick whistles/bad calls. One was a VERY quick forward progress whistle, and I can't remember the other.

As to Hillis. Didn't he only have the one fumble on a kick off return in the first game?

I'm certainly not agreeing with the OP, because I think Moreno has been very good to date (except for the fumbles).
No,the quick whistle forward progress call was Gaffney not Moreno.

honz
11-02-2009, 12:41 PM
And I'm sorry, but if you can't see that Moreno is clearly the more talented RB than Hillis you are either completely biased or blind. Hillis isn't in the doghouse...he just isn't nearly as good as some people think he is. And don't even get me started on Moreno being the next Olandis Gary or Tater...Moreno has made some runs already this year that those chumps couldn't even dream about doing.

honz
11-02-2009, 12:46 PM
I'm honestly baffeled at what I am reading in this thread. Just a few weeks ago 90% of the board was talking about what a great pick he was and how he has been the offensive rookie of the year so far. Now, he has one fumble on a great play by Reed and suddenly he's no better than what we had last year? Give me a break.

He has shown great flashes this year and he makes at least one or two runs a game that make me go wow. Sure he makes mistakes, but what running back doesn't? Especially as a rookie. I seem to remember Tiki Barber having a fumbling problem and he turned out ok. Ball security is something that can be fixed and I have no doubt it will be over time.

But geez, he is on pace to rush for almost 1000 yards, as a rookie, while splitting carries with 2 other backs, but some on here want to say he's no better or even worse than Ryan Torain or Tatum freaking Bell. Child, please.

Moreno is going to make a lot of people kiss da baby!

Poet
11-02-2009, 12:54 PM
The Adrian Peterson comparison is more than apt. No one is saying Moreno is as good or will be as good as AP - but AP was a studly young back who fumbled a lot. Moreno is a studly (to a lesser degree obviously) back who fumbles the ball. Benching Moreno would be a dumb idea. Trust me, Buckhalter may be a capable back but Moreno is your future and he is productive.

I saw the Ed Reed hit that caused the fumble; yes some backs in the NFL wouldn't have fumbled that ball but there's a lot who would have. Ed Reed gave Moreno a "Welcome to the NFL, this is why I'm going to the Hall of Fame" hit.

It happens.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 12:58 PM
And I'm sorry, but if you can't see that Moreno is clearly the more talented RB than Hillis you are either completely biased or blind. Hillis isn't in the doghouse...he just isn't nearly as good as some people think he is. And don't even get me started on Moreno being the next Olandis Gary or Tater...Moreno has made some runs already this year that those chumps couldn't even dream about doing.

I don't see it at all. Moreno looks like a 3rd or 4th round pick, not the top RB taken in the draft. Out of curiosity, when did those amazing runs occur? At Georgia?

dogfish
11-02-2009, 12:59 PM
In all honesty.... Moreno can't be putting the ball on the ground. WILL he be fine....probably so. No reason to doubt a young kid in his rookie year. But its a pattern already with Moreno... so far (not meaning I believe it will be one for the rest of his career). But, right now, its a problem and one that we should be concerned about.


meh. . . you've been watching football long enough to know what a common thing it is for rookie backs to go through fumbling problems-- people should expect it, it's typically par for the course. . . doesn't always happen, of course, but it's frequently part of the developmental curve for the position, along with learning to pass protect. . .

does that mean i love it? nah, i wanna throw shit at the TV when it happens, but it doesn't particularly surprise me with a young back. . .




Do we sit him? I don't know. What are we gaining with him over our other RBs? Nothing from what I've seen.... so far.

you're asking the wrong question-- what are we gaining by playing the other backs over him? knowshon's 3.9 YPC yesterday certainly wasn't great, but it was far better than buckhalter's 2.0. . . besides which, we have a vested interest in developing knowshon. . . buckhalter and jordan are old vets, they have zero upside going forward-- knowshon was brought in to be the long term starter, it makes sense to let him work through some growing pains. . . if buck was lighting it up then i can see giving him the bulk of the work, but he wasn't-- at all. . .

granted, i would like to see hillis get more involved, but for whatever reason it just looks like that's not going to happen. . .

we got beat up yesterday by a hungrier, more motivated team, and i guess i really don't see the sense in starting a thread asking for one guy to be benched when freakin' nobody played particularly well. . . .


edit: if anything, how about a thread asking to replace ben hamilton? dude got his ass handed to him yesterday. . . .

honz
11-02-2009, 12:59 PM
I thought that play was an incomplete pass anyways. Moreno hadn't even fully turned his body upfield and he was getting nailed. So what if his feet had touched the ground after catching it...I thought you were supposed to have to make a football move to have possession. He did not make a "football move". We would have lost the game anyways (obviously), but I thought it was a terrible call.

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 01:00 PM
Also, I'm talking about Morenos performance to date not just the fumble this past weekend. All of the fumbles, the poor vision, the lack of break away speed.

honz
11-02-2009, 01:03 PM
I don't see it at all. Moreno looks like a 3rd or 4th round pick, not the top RB taken in the draft. Out of curiosity, when did those amazing runs occur? At Georgia?

The runs where he makes people miss in the backfield. The runs where he breaks arm tackles and stiff arms multiple people on his way to an 11 yard gain. The way he catches the ball out of the backfield. The way he blows up blitzing LB's consistently. Does he have room for improvement? Yes, but he has shown several flashes of why he was considered a 1st round pick and why some said he was the best all around RB to come out of college in several years.

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 01:10 PM
The runs where he makes people miss in the backfield. The runs where he breaks arm tackles and stiff arms multiple people on his way to an 11 yard gain. The way he catches the ball out of the backfield. The way he blows up blitzing LB's consistently. Does he have room for improvement? Yes, but he has shown several flashes of why he was considered a 1st round pick and why some said he was the best all around RB to come out of college in several years.

Then rewatch the Jets game from last year sometime when you get a chance. Hillis was by any objective measure more effective in that game than anything we've seen out of Moreno, and against a good run defense. Moreno has shown nothing more than adequacy. He's no bust by any means (that argument is silly) but he is not really an improvement over what we already had on hand based on what he's shown us.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 01:16 PM
I also don't believe that there wasn't anything he could have done to prevent the fumble. He had it in his posession... so hang onto the ball. Thats how you avoid the fumbles. Players do it ALLLL the time with hard hits. Welcome to the NFL.

However, as it was pointed out earlier..... the double pump by the QB telling he entire defense where he was about to throw the ball didn't help out Moreno there. I think Orton should buy Moreno dinner for that one :lol:

I believe the double pump was because Moreno was not where he was supposed
to be when Orton went to pass it. Instead of running to his spot, Moreno just
sort of drifted over there, so Orton had to pull it back before throwing it to
allow Moreno to get where he needed to be.

Orton had precious little time to do anything but that because Clady whiffed
his block on the pass rusher on that particular play, and the rusher was
breathing down Orton's neck.

I believe the play is mostly to the credit of Reed, and I don't know whether it
would have made any difference to whether Reed made the play (probably not
because Reed was on top of it all along), but Moreno probably would have had
more time to gather the ball and secure it, had he been out there in the first
place, so the play would not have taken so long to develop.

After running the replay several times, that is what I got from it, anyway.

-----

dogfish
11-02-2009, 01:30 PM
Also, I'm talking about Morenos performance to date not just the fumble this past weekend. All of the fumbles, the poor vision, the lack of break away speed.

okay, what's wrong with his performance to date?

he's 16th in the league in rushing yards. . . certainly not great, but also not bad at all for a rookie who's only started 3 games and works in a time-share system on a pass-first team. . . of the 15 backs ahead of him, 12 of them also have more carries. . . he's just under 500 total yards with 3 TDs, which puts him on pace for over a thousand yards for the season. . . at this point, he's putting up the numbers of an average back-- he's not lighting it up, but there's no reason he should be in danger of getting benched. . . he has fewer fumbles than last year's studs michael turner and steve slaton. . . and his stats are easily the best of all this year's rookie backs. . .


i'm sorry that you guys were expecting him to be a superstar right out of the gates, but maybe it's time to consider whether his performance is poor, or if your expectations were a bit unreasonable for a rookie back who missed time early and isn't even a clear-cut starter. . .

but. . . but. . . he was a FIRST ROUND PICK!! big deal. . . he had hype! so? when did these things become some sort of entitlement to greatness? and why do fans continue to act as though first rounders are disappointments if they don't immediately enter the ranks of the elite at their position?

and how in the world is it fair to blame knowshon for his lack of breakaway speed when it was well known before the draft that he really isn't that type of back? if people thought he was going to look like chris johnson, they were destined for a letdown. . . a comparison i've made before is curtis martin-- knowshon's a well-rounded back who isn't overwhelming in any one area besides his balance. . . he doesn't have the same explosive potential as a guy like johnson (who also has the most negative plays of any starting back, BTW), although i absolutely think we'll see some big plays from him-- but he's the kind of guy who can run inside or out, and stay on the field in every situation because of his ability to block and catch the ball. . . he was drfted because he's a great fit for mcdaniels' system, in both his skillset and his gritty, competitive nature. . . he's a chain mover, something he's already shown. . . he leads all rookie backs in first down percentage, and is 10th overall among players with over 50 carries. . . the kid has fought hard to get firsts in some situations where he was clearly stopped behind the sticks, something very important that doesn't show up in the stats. . .

we've got new HC and coaching staff and lots of new personnel-- the offense as a whole has been far from consistent. . . can we give mcdaniels a chance to figure out all his weapons and get everybody on the same page before we start calling the rookie out after 7 games? oh wait, i guess not-- a few people were already doing that after about the second week. . .

come on people, try to have a little more patience than a kid with a full bladder on a car ride. . . .

silkamilkamonico
11-02-2009, 02:01 PM
You don't take RB's in the first round in this day and age. especially in the top half of the draft.

Not unless they are Adrian Peterson skillset.

How many "franchise RB's" have won the SuperBowl in the last 10 years? 2? Jamal Lewis and Marshall Faulk?

What top 15 RB's have been a deserved pick in the NFL in the last 10 years? A handful at most?

Oh, and let's not forget that RB's are only good for 5-7 years if they can stay healthy and produce for you.

Knowshon might be really really good for Denver down the line, but in another 5-7 years, people are likely going to want to go RB in the first round again.

I was wrpng about Knowshon and really like him as a p[layer aside from his fumbling, but IMHO, a RB in the top 15 is just a wasted pick unless the draft is so weak there just isn't anybody else.

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 02:41 PM
No one is giving him the "ok" to keep fumbling, but on that one specific play I think just about any RB in the league would have fumbled. If you look at the play he didn't have TIME to secure the ball. The second he got control of it he was getting blasted by a full speed Ed Reed. Now his prior fumbles are definitely his fault and should be corrected but I give him very little of the blame for that one particular play.


Terrell Davis wouldnt have fumbled that ball.............:coffee:














;)

Dreadnought
11-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Terrell Davis wouldnt have fumbled that ball.............:coffee:


;)

He might have, WH - it was that kind of hit. It would also be his only fumble of the Year...

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 02:51 PM
Speaking for myself, I never said Knowshon is a bust. I didnt say he doesnt have talent. I didnt say he cant run.

But I did say that he has a FUMBLING problem, and you know what, I dont enjoy giving the ball to the other team.

When youre a runningback in the NFL, your job is to HOLD ON TO THE BALL. And if you cant do that, youre just like a WR who keeps dropping passes...................INEFFECTIVE. You cancel out your good with bad.


Its gotten so that everytime he runs I hold my breath.

Forget that crap.


Im not saying dont play him, but he needs his carries DROPPED, and replaced by Hillis, in order to send the kid a message: HOLD ON TO THE BALL OR YOU SIT.


This isnt to make the team worse.........its to make it better.

By continuing to play him the same amount of carries, youre sending him the message that its ok every once in a while.


Thats my opinion, it aint gonna change.

Shanahan would have sat him long ago. Not to punish him, but to make him understand the EXPECTATION of being given the rock.

Take care of it.



Or sit.


Your choice amigo.:salute:

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 02:52 PM
He might have, WH - it was that kind of hit. It would also be his only fumble of the Year...


Nah.


TD would have taken it to the house.:D

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 03:10 PM
Speaking for myself, I never said Knowshon is a bust. I didnt say he doesnt have talent. I didnt say he cant run.

But I did say that he has a FUMBLING problem, and you know what, I dont enjoy giving the ball to the other team.

When youre a runningback in the NFL, your job is to HOLD ON TO THE BALL. And if you cant do that, youre just like a WR who keeps dropping passes...................INEFFECTIVE. You cancel out your good with bad.


Its gotten so that everytime he runs I hold my breath.

Forget that crap.


Im not saying dont play him, but he needs his carries DROPPED, and replaced by Hillis, in order to send the kid a message: HOLD ON TO THE BALL OR YOU SIT.


This isnt to make the team worse.........its to make it better.

By continuing to play him the same amount of carries, youre sending him the message that its ok every once in a while.


Thats my opinion, it aint gonna change.

Shanahan would have sat him long ago. Not to punish him, but to make him understand the EXPECTATION of being given the rock.

Take care of it.



Or sit.


Your choice amigo.:salute:

What he said :beer:

KCL
11-02-2009, 03:29 PM
Where is OT? Ya mean he hasn't chimed in on this thread yet?

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:19 PM
He might have, WH - it was that kind of hit. It would also be his only fumble of the Year...

Moreover, TD would have already been where he was supposed to be, out in the
flank, where Orton would not have had to double-pump to get the ball to him.
So TD would have had more time to gather the ball in and prevent a fumble . . .

-----

dogfish
11-02-2009, 04:25 PM
regardless of what TD would have done, it's really not fair to compare knowshon to him at this point in KM's career anyway. . . moreno is a rookie with three career starts in seven games. . . TD was a semi-finalist on this year's hall of fame ballot. . . . and he's not walkin' back out that tunnel any more than elway is. . . knowshon could easily have a VERY successful and productive career without equaling TD. . .

just sayin'. . . .

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 04:39 PM
regardless of what TD would have done, it's really not fair to compare knowshon to him at this point in KM's career anyway. . . moreno is a rookie with three career starts in seven games. . . TD was a semi-finalist on this year's hall of fame ballot. . . . and he's not walkin' back out that tunnel any more than elway is. . . knowshon could easily have a VERY successful and productive career without equaling TD. . .

just sayin'. . . .

Word. :nod:

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:44 PM
regardless of what TD would have done, it's really not fair to compare knowshon to him at this point in KM's career anyway. . . moreno is a rookie with three career starts in seven games. . . TD was a semi-finalist on this year's hall of fame ballot. . . . and he's not walkin' back out that tunnel any more than elway is. . . knowshon could easily have a VERY successful and productive career without equaling TD. . .

just sayin'. . . .

Regardless of "word," TD is an example of how it would have been done right.
So it is very appropriate to point out how TD would have done it in that
context.

Is it not? :coffee:

-----

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 04:47 PM
Regardless of "word," TD is an example of how it would have been done right.
So it is very appropriate to point out how TD would have done it in that
context.

Is it not? :coffee:

-----

TSFY. :coffee:

dogfish
11-02-2009, 05:39 PM
Regardless of "word," TD is an example of how it would have been done right.
So it is very appropriate to point out how TD would have done it in that
context.

Is it not? :coffee:

-----

sure, i never said it wasn't appropriate. . . it's definitely appropriate to use TD as an example of the right way to do things-- my issue is that some people apparently expect the three game starter to exceute like the potential HOFer. . . as in, "TD wouldn't have fumbled that ball". . . .


didn't we have enough of that crap with all the QBs following elway? i just hate to see it start up now with knowshon getting compared to TD. . . i guess i don't see the point. . . we'd all love to have TD and elway back, but it's not possible. . .


enh, why do i bother? fans are going to bitch about every mistake made, and nothing will ever change it. . . our past legends didn't play mistake-free football either, but they become perfect in hindsight. . . if we draft eric berry, people will complain that he isn't atwater-- if we get brandon spikes, he won't be good enough because he isn't gradishar. . .

and someday, people will complain about alphonso smith because he's not as good as champ. . . .

spikerman
11-02-2009, 05:45 PM
If I can get off of the Knowshon topic for a second and go back to a theme I've talked about for some time, I'd like to say again that I think the biggest problem with the running game is that there is no threat of a pass being thrown over the defenders' heads. The Ravens figured out that they can play 8 in the box and not worry about the Broncos taking a shot downfield. IMO, THAT is why Denver struggled to run the ball yesterday. As a matter of fact, I think that's why the offense struggled throughout the game. B-more took away the short stuff and Denver never adjusted. Trying to run or throw 3 and 4 yard passes against 8 in the box won't get it done.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 05:49 PM
sure, i never said it wasn't appropriate. . . it's definitely appropriate to use TD as an example of the right way to do things-- my issue is that some people apparently expect the three game starter to exceute like the potential HOFer. . . as in, "TD wouldn't have fumbled that ball". . . .


didn't we have enough of that crap with all the QBs following elway? i just hate to see it start up now with knowshon getting compared to TD. . . i guess i don't see the point. . . we'd all love to have TD and elway back, but it's not possible. . .


enh, why do i bother? fans are going to bitch about every mistake made, and nothing will ever change it. . . our past legends didn't play mistake-free football either, but they become perfect in hindsight. . . if we draft eric berry, people will complain that he isn't atwater-- if we get brandon spikes, he won't be good enough because he isn't gradishar. . .

and someday, people will complain about alphonso smith because he's not as good as champ. . . .

I understand what you're saying. My comment mainly was about Moreno's
mistake and how it would have been done, had he not made it. I did not
intend to "compare" Moreno with TD other than that.

Switching exclusively to Moreno, he simply floated a bit too . . . shall we say
lazily? . . . out to the flank on the fumble play, forcing Orton to double-pump
because the defender between Orton and Moreno was too close to Moreno.
Moreno should have moved a bit more briskly to get out there sooner, and it
likely would have been a different play.

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 05:54 PM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=9534

Josh McDaniels comments on Moreno

On if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."

Nomad
11-02-2009, 05:58 PM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=9534

Josh McDaniels comments on Moreno

On if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."


Missile is right! No one, I mean, no one would have held onto that ball with Reed's timing and the intense hit he gave!!

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 06:05 PM
I agree; I have to assume there are valid reasons too.



I agree as well. OTOH, I have seen no signs of Peterson-like talent from Moreno as of yet. You can tolerate fumbles and such from a guy like AP, but Moreno looks much like any other back we've had in here over the past few years to be perfectly honest. I keep waiting for him to have a break out game, but so far what I've seen is a perfectly fine tailback who gains nearly 4 yards per carry. As such he is just the next in a line of succession going back to Olandis Gary, and fumbles are more unforgivable in a perfectly ordinary back.



That hit Reed put on him was brutal. I don't hold that fumble against him, because I doubt anyone in the game would have hung onto that ball


bet old Eddie MAc and PUTZ would have:D

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 06:13 PM
Missile is right! No one, I mean, no one would have held onto that ball with Reed's timing and the intense hit he gave!!

Absolutely correct - this is SO EASY to see, I can not believe it :tsk:

dogfish
11-02-2009, 06:13 PM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=9534

Josh McDaniels comments on Moreno

On if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."

yea, well, what does he know?


:elefant:

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:17 PM
Sit clady!!!!

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 06:18 PM
For those who forgot what it looked like, or did not see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jldjj45fHWY

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 06:18 PM
yea, well, what does he know?


:elefant:

Davis fumbled the ball 5 times in his rookie year. In fact, he fumbled 5 times in second year as a pro as well.

honz
11-02-2009, 06:25 PM
Moreno - 3 fumbles
Bucky - 2 fumbles
Hillis - 1 fumble

Sit them all dammit! Lament Jordan FTMFW!

dogfish
11-02-2009, 06:27 PM
Davis fumbled the ball 5 times in his rookie year. In fact, he fumbled 5 times in second year as a pro as well.

no he didn't!


:lalala:

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:28 PM
For those who forgot what it looked like, or did not see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jldjj45fHWY

I dont want to see it again...

I would rather watch this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5K1g4SDO2k)

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:29 PM
Moreno - 3 fumbles
Bucky - 2 fumbles
Hillis - 1 fumble

Sit them all dammit! Lament Jordan FTMFW!

Oh dear . . .

-----

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 06:31 PM
no he didn't!


:lalala:

Otay.

KCL
11-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Missile is right! No one, I mean, no one would have held onto that ball with Reed's timing and the intense hit he gave!!

Do you all think the call was correct that it was a fumble? Isn't that the one that McD challenged?

honz
11-02-2009, 06:35 PM
Do you all think the call was correct that it was a fumble? Isn't that the one that McD challenged?

No, I thought it was an incomplete pass...looking at it as objectively as I can being a Bronco fan.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:35 PM
Do you all think the call was correct that it was a fumble? Isn't that the one that McD challenged?

It was a fumble. Moreno had gathered in the pass and already started forward.

-----

KCL
11-02-2009, 06:40 PM
It was a fumble. Moreno had gathered in the pass and already started forward.

-----

That's one of them fumbles that you really can't fault the fumbler...Moreno
in this case...;)

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:42 PM
Do you all think the call was correct that it was a fumble? Isn't that the one that McD challenged?

It was a fumble, he had caught the ball and made a "football move", it just looked like a "sack of hammers move"

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 08:06 PM
regardless of what TD would have done, it's really not fair to compare knowshon to him at this point in KM's career anyway. . . moreno is a rookie with three career starts in seven games. . . TD was a semi-finalist on this year's hall of fame ballot. . . . and he's not walkin' back out that tunnel any more than elway is. . . knowshon could easily have a VERY successful and productive career without equaling TD. . .

just sayin'. . . .


Yeah, Im not comparing TD to Knowshon, and youre correct, it doesnt matter whether TD would have held on to the ball or not.


This is about Knowshon.


Knowshon fumbled the ball. If it had been his first time.......I wouldnt be saying anything.

This is a PATTERN.

It needs to be dealt with imo.

To make him better for the team.

Its called ACCOUNTABILITY.

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 08:10 PM
sure, i never said it wasn't appropriate. . . it's definitely appropriate to use TD as an example of the right way to do things-- my issue is that some people apparently expect the three game starter to exceute like the potential HOFer. . . as in, "TD wouldn't have fumbled that ball". . . .


didn't we have enough of that crap with all the QBs following elway? i just hate to see it start up now with knowshon getting compared to TD. . . i guess i don't see the point. . . we'd all love to have TD and elway back, but it's not possible. . .


enh, why do i bother? fans are going to bitch about every mistake made, and nothing will ever change it. . . our past legends didn't play mistake-free football either, but they become perfect in hindsight. . . if we draft eric berry, people will complain that he isn't atwater-- if we get brandon spikes, he won't be good enough because he isn't gradishar. . .

and someday, people will complain about alphonso smith because he's not as good as champ. . . .

Dont know how anyone else took the TD comparison, but see the green smiley face at the bottom?

Its a joke. An unfair comparison, and a MOOT comparison at that.


Three game starter or no three game starter, YOU FUMBLE, YOU FRIGGIN SIT ON THE BENCH DUDE.

This isnt a one time thing.

When rookies arent capable of playing at the NFL level, then they sit until deemed ready.

If you put the ball on the gridiron every game, YOU AINT READY.

So guard the icewater until you can hold onto the ball rookie.


Its no excuse that youre a rookie. Get the hell off the field and put someone in thats going to take care of the ball.


PERIOD.:coffee:

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 08:12 PM
Yeah, Im not comparing TD to Knowshon, and youre correct, it doesnt matter whether TD would have held on to the ball or not.


This is about Knowshon.


Knowshon fumbled the ball. If it had been his first time.......I wouldnt be saying anything.

This is a PATTERN.

It needs to be dealt with imo.

To make him better for the team.

Its called ACCOUNTABILITY.

Watch the hit again - ANYONE would have fumbled the ball. If his previous fumbles need to be discussed - OK - but don't put this one in the same bucket as the others.

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 08:17 PM
Watch the hit again - ANYONE would have fumbled the ball. If his previous fumbles need to be discussed - OK - but don't put this one in the same bucket as the others.

What bucket should we put it in then?


Thats bogus imo.

There are plenty of guys who have taken bigger hits than that and held onto the ball.


We gonna say that every time Knowshon gets hit hard its okay for him to fumble the ball?????

Boo hoo.


Gimme a break. This is the NFL. Not pop warner.


There are plenty of big hits to go around, and if you cant hang on, or you dont know that the safety may be coming as you get the ball........youre in the wrong business.

Every time he dropped the ball up to this point..........he got hit hard.


Wear a dress. Go to prom. Cheer on the side. But for heavens sake, get OFF THE FIELD if youre going to fumble every damn game.

Every runner in the NFL gets hit hard.

HIS JOB IS TO HANG ON TO THE BALL.

In the words of McD:

DO YOUR JOB.

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 08:26 PM
To each his own

broncofaninfla
11-02-2009, 08:36 PM
It's not just about this fumble for me, it's about ALL of his fumbles this season. Rookie or not, there is no excuse.

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 08:36 PM
To each his own


Exactly.

McDaniels on if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."


Hasnt had a history of that in college. But here in the NFL, he has a history. I can understand working with Knowshon as McD says, but you know what? They been working with him.

Sit him down. Take carries away from him. That will help him more than anything else.
:salute:

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 08:40 PM
Exactly.

McDaniels on if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."


Hasnt had a history of that in college. But here in the NFL, he has a history. I can understand working with Knowshon as McD says, but you know what? They been working with him.

Sit him down. Take carries away from him. That will help him more than anything else.
:salute:

I know what the article says - I read it before I posted it.

drewloc
11-02-2009, 08:49 PM
Exactly.

McDaniels on if he is concerned with RB Knowshon Moreno's fumble total this season
"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him yesterday... He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that. He takes responsibility for that. We could do a little bit better job of not having that situation come up in the game, hopefully. Any time somebody is fumbling the ball, you always want to try to do whatever you can to try to fix that. Again, he hasn't had a history with that. We have just got to continue to work with him."


Hasnt had a history of that in college. But here in the NFL, he has a history. I can understand working with Knowshon as McD says, but you know what? They been working with him.

Sit him down. Take carries away from him. That will help him more than anything else.
:salute:

While I agree that it's something that he has to work on, there is no doubt that it is something that I would like to see Knowshon improve on. I think that they may be letting him work through it as opposed to sitting him. I don't know that for sure obviously, but sometimes you just have to let a guy play through issues.

dogfish
11-02-2009, 08:51 PM
so war. . . who do you want them to replace him with while he sits? we got somebody on the roster who's fumble-proof?

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 08:52 PM
Watch the hit again - ANYONE would have fumbled the ball. If his previous fumbles need to be discussed - OK - but don't put this one in the same bucket as the others.


do you think that Eddie Mac or PUTZ would have gave it up?


personally I do not..both knew how to catch and hold on regardless of the hit..

weazel
11-02-2009, 09:12 PM
do you think that Eddie Mac or PUTZ would have gave it up?


personally I do not..both knew how to catch and hold on regardless of the hit..

87 :salute:

BroncoAV06
11-02-2009, 09:13 PM
Bress fumbled again, thats 6 on the year and 3 lost. Mark Burnell needs to be under center for the Saints.

Nomad
11-02-2009, 09:15 PM
Bress fumbled again, thats 6 on the year and 3 lost. Mark Burnell needs to be under center for the Saints.

He's Breesus to Saints fans!!:D

honz
11-02-2009, 09:17 PM
so war. . . who do you want them to replace him with while he sits? we got somebody on the roster who's fumble-proof?

I don't think Orton has fumbled yet and he has shown a nice burst when he pulls it down.

weazel
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
Bress fumbled again, thats 6 on the year and 3 lost. Mark Burnell needs to be under center for the Saints.

I hope for their sake, the Saints can somehow make a deal for Cutler!

BroncoAV06
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
I don't think Orton has fumbled yet and he has shown a nice burst when he pulls it down.

You could be on to something. I'm thinking QB option plays. The defense won't know what hit them when they see Orton take off almost in slow motion, they will just stand in amazment of that who is Kyle Orton.

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 09:21 PM
I hope for their sake, the Saints can somehow make a deal for Cutler!



Naw he gives blood to much.. he be a failure down there also..

weazel
11-02-2009, 09:24 PM
You could be on to something. I'm thinking QB option plays. The defense won't know what hit them when they see Orton take off almost in slow motion, they will just stand in amazment of that who is Kyle Orton.

run the option baby! the option!

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 11:10 PM
I know what the article says - I read it before I posted it.


So whats yer point?

Its okay to fumble when he gets hit hard?:coffee:

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 11:11 PM
so war. . . who do you want them to replace him with while he sits? we got somebody on the roster who's fumble-proof?


Someone who doesnt put the ball in the dirt every game.........how about that?

Got anyone like that on our roster?:tsk:

WARHORSE
11-02-2009, 11:15 PM
Bress fumbled again, thats 6 on the year and 3 lost. Mark Burnell needs to be under center for the Saints.


Thats a very intelligent point.

Brees compared to Knowshon.


A QB getting strip sacked vs a RB getting hit hard.

BroncoAV06
11-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Thats a very intelligent point.

Brees compared to Knowshon.


A QB getting strip sacked vs a RB getting hit hard.

Its called sarcasim you cranky horse. Brees got lit up, up the middle.

Do you just not like him as a player so are looking for anything to rip him apart about? 3 fumbles is not good, no one doubts that, but can he not improve?

Denver Native (Carol)
11-02-2009, 11:28 PM
The Saints RB just fumbled - someone just stripped the ball from him - he was NOT hit by a missile as Coach MCD said. Fumbles happen.

LRtagger
11-02-2009, 11:39 PM
do you think that Eddie Mac or PUTZ would have gave it up?


personally I do not..both knew how to catch and hold on regardless of the hit..

When they were rookies playing in their 7th NFL game, yea they may have coughed that up.



Actually, decided to look it up. Eddy had 2 fumbles lost in his first two years (55 touches). Knowshon has 3 fumbles lost in 120 touches.

Eddy had some of the best hands in the league later in his career, but maybe not so much earlier.

Also, this was posted on the Mane FWIW. Running back fumbles per touch percentages on the season.

McFadden 7.41
Slaton 5.04
Beanie 4.92
M. Turner 3.31
W. Parker 3.08
Hightower 2.94
Buckhalter 2.74
Knokno 2.5
Mendenhall 2.33
Stewart 2.33
Forte 2.11
Bradshaw 2.08

honz
11-02-2009, 11:51 PM
LOL. So Bucky is the real butterfingers after all. Classic.

Poet
11-03-2009, 12:28 AM
It was a fumble. Moreno had gathered in the pass and already started forward.

-----

If they ruled it as an incomplete pass on the field it would have stood as an incomplete pass. They ruled it a fumble and it stood as a fumble. To me, and I'm not saying you're wrong, that's one of those calls where you can't fault whatever the refs go with and can't get upset when it stands. It was that close to me.

honz
11-03-2009, 12:35 AM
King is a ******* beast.

BroncoWave
11-03-2009, 01:37 AM
When they were rookies playing in their 7th NFL game, yea they may have coughed that up.



Actually, decided to look it up. Eddy had 2 fumbles lost in his first two years (55 touches). Knowshon has 3 fumbles lost in 120 touches.

Eddy had some of the best hands in the league later in his career, but maybe not so much earlier.

Also, this was posted on the Mane FWIW. Running back fumbles per touch percentages on the season.

McFadden 7.41
Slaton 5.04
Beanie 4.92
M. Turner 3.31
W. Parker 3.08
Hightower 2.94
Buckhalter 2.74
Knokno 2.5
Mendenhall 2.33
Stewart 2.33
Forte 2.11
Bradshaw 2.08

Funny how when you post cold hard facts to bust people's cute little preconceived notions they suddenly quit spewing their crap. Good post!

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 02:40 AM
Exactly - and the one fumble Hillis had on the KO return was the only fumble of his professional career. The idea of "fumbles" causing him to be in a doghouse is absurd.

he had 2 very costly penalties on special teams, plus the fumble, he also had 2 key drops. he is in the doghouse for more than just a fumble on a KO, which happened to be on our 20 and very, very, very bad....

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 02:48 AM
Agreed - I don't hold that one fumble against him in all fairness. Apart from that he does not look like any kind of upgrade over the guys we fielded last year though. Maybe moving away from the ZBS has hurt our running game that much, but prior to yesterday Buck had been superb behind this line and in this scheme so I don't think thats a complete answer.

this is disagree with, andre hall count run to save his sole and was constantly running into his blockers...no vision at all.....and selvin was a waste who couldn t run tough at all.


moreno is a tough runner, who is getting rocked by playcalling, he had some solid runs yesterday against what happens to be a outstanding defense, backed by one of the best NT's in the game.....is it really that big of suprise we couldnt run up the middle all that well.....heck 10 carries is all he had to work with.....

he also has scored more in 6 games than hall or young did the last 2 years.....



what really irks me is how can people get a free pass for blatant crticism of moreno, yet others cant critize a poor performance by orton and the offense, and not have it construed as the sky is falling.....big double standards here....big!!!!

dogfish
11-03-2009, 02:50 AM
what really irks me is how can people get a free pass for blatant crticism of moreno, yet others cant critize a poor performance by orton and the offense, and not have it construed as the sky is falling.....big double standards here....big!!!!

:listen: criticizing orton makes you a hater. . . .

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 03:30 AM
:listen: criticizing orton makes you a hater. . . .

apparently....guess i didnt get that memo...huh....lol

WARHORSE
11-03-2009, 03:50 AM
Its called sarcasim you cranky horse. Brees got lit up, up the middle.

Do you just not like him as a player so are looking for anything to rip him apart about? 3 fumbles is not good, no one doubts that, but can he not improve?



How are we supposed to know that?


I can see sarcasm if something is there that denotes that.

Youd be surprised at the unintelligible things that can be said in a forum.


And it aint three fumbles.

Im all for improving, but when is he gonna improve.........week 17?

He needs to lose the start, and lose carries to Hillis or someone else imo.

When he comes back in, you gradually increase his carries as long as he takes care of the football.

Otherwise, you gotta be dumb for playing him.

Dumb.:salute:

WARHORSE
11-03-2009, 03:52 AM
When they were rookies playing in their 7th NFL game, yea they may have coughed that up.



Actually, decided to look it up. Eddy had 2 fumbles lost in his first two years (55 touches). Knowshon has 3 fumbles lost in 120 touches.

Eddy had some of the best hands in the league later in his career, but maybe not so much earlier.

Also, this was posted on the Mane FWIW. Running back fumbles per touch percentages on the season.

McFadden 7.41
Slaton 5.04
Beanie 4.92
M. Turner 3.31
W. Parker 3.08
Hightower 2.94
Buckhalter 2.74
Knokno 2.5
Mendenhall 2.33
Stewart 2.33
Forte 2.11
Bradshaw 2.08

Thats fumbles lost.

This kid has put it down more than that.

WARHORSE
11-03-2009, 03:53 AM
Funny how when you post cold hard facts to bust people's cute little preconceived notions they suddenly quit spewing their crap. Good post!

Specifically, like who?

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 03:55 AM
How are we supposed to know that?


I can see sarcasm if something is there that denotes that.

Youd be surprised at the unintelligible things that can be said in a forum.


And it aint three fumbles.

Im all for improving, but when is he gonna improve.........week 17?

He needs to lose the start, and lose carries to Hillis or someone else imo.

When he comes back in, you gradually increase his carries as long as he takes care of the football.

Otherwise, you gotta be dumb for playing him.

Dumb.:salute:


bucky actually is the starter...but his wopping 18 yds on eight carries gave way to moreno getting the bulk....and untill hillis finds his way out of the doghouse touches for him just wont happen, although they did call his number 2 times against baltimore so maybe he will work his way back in.....there are also plenty of good backs that have a higher fumble ratio per touch right now.....heck steve slaton the leading rookie rusher from last year has seven fumbles this year already.....

Superchop 7
11-03-2009, 04:08 AM
On Moreno,

I would rather see Hillis in the first half.

Moreno in the 2nd half.

Look, it's very hard for a rookie RB to adjust to the speed in the league, the fact that he is having some success bodes well for the future. TD and Portis both struggled in their rookie year.

Using Moreno in the second half (when the D is a hair slower) will help him, rather than hinder him. (by being overwhelmed)

As for Tatum Bell, well, I wasn't a fan the first time, but, what he did last year has my sincere appreciation. He walked off the street and did everything asked of him, he was.....probably for the first time as a pro.....a team player, coachable, you could see the effort in everything he did. (Imagine "THAT" phonecall.......hey Tatum.....the Broncos called and want to know what your doing Sunday.....)

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 04:44 AM
Thats fumbles lost.

This kid has put it down more than that.

lol but they werent counted as fumbles so they dont count..... you cant count what you want and say its a fumble becasue the stat sheet says so regardless of how it happened then play the what if game about supposed fumbles not on the stat sheet, thats a double standard

WARHORSE
11-03-2009, 05:00 AM
lol but they werent counted as fumbles so they dont count..... you cant count what you want and say its a fumble becasue the stat sheet says so regardless of how it happened then play the what if game about supposed fumbles not on the stat sheet, thats a double standard


If Moreno puts it in the dirt four times, and we get the ball back four times, its not an issue?


I dont think so.

Also, from my perspective mind you, I dont care how many times other backs drop the ball.

It has no bearing on what is expected here.

Just sayin........:coffee:

WARHORSE
11-03-2009, 05:03 AM
On Moreno,

I would rather see Hillis in the first half.

Moreno in the 2nd half.

Look, it's very hard for a rookie RB to adjust to the speed in the league, the fact that he is having some success bodes well for the future. TD and Portis both struggled in their rookie year.

Using Moreno in the second half (when the D is a hair slower) will help him, rather than hinder him. (by being overwhelmed)

As for Tatum Bell, well, I wasn't a fan the first time, but, what he did last year has my sincere appreciation. He walked off the street and did everything asked of him, he was.....probably for the first time as a pro.....a team player, coachable, you could see the effort in everything he did. (Imagine "THAT" phonecall.......hey Tatum.....the Broncos called and want to know what your doing Sunday.....)

I totally agree at this point.

Hillis may be relearning the new offense, but he has a body of work from last year that shows what he can do.

Portis fumbled in his first few games, but he got it right. So did TD.


Shanny sat people when they fumbled.

I hope Moreno can get it straight, soon.

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 05:46 AM
I totally agree at this point.

Hillis may be relearning the new offense, but he has a body of work from last year that shows what he can do.

Portis fumbled in his first few games, but he got it right. So did TD.


Shanny sat people when they fumbled.

I hope Moreno can get it straight, soon.


so why the issue with moreno in his first seven games......also if you rember correctly he was sat, then bucky proceeded to get nowhere on 4 carries....so well you do the math moreno>jordan...moreno>jordan...hillis has to earn his spot back for whatever reason...he started to last game...perhaps if it keeps up he will get his number called even more, but as of right now....thats just not the case....

Elevation inc
11-03-2009, 05:51 AM
If Moreno puts it in the dirt four times, and we get the ball back four times, its not an issue?


I dont think so.

Also, from my perspective mind you, I dont care how many times other backs drop the ball.

It has no bearing on what is expected here.

Just sayin........:coffee:


lol according to the stats sheet he has 3 fumbles and 3 fumbles lost....guess the other 4 you think happened dont count as fumbles because they werent considered fumbles...just saying......now had he had seven legit fumbles in seven game i agree with a big benching much in the way steve slaton just got benched, but the reality is he has only 3 and is a rookie....and the last one was BS, but it counts....

as someone mentioned Adrian peterson was the most fumble prone back his rookie year.......


whats even funnier is out of the 3 legit fumbles only 1 came while running the ball on 109 carries.....the other 2 came after catches out of the backfield when he got blasted.....

broncofaninfla
11-03-2009, 06:38 AM
Bress fumbled again, thats 6 on the year and 3 lost. Mark Burnell needs to be under center for the Saints.

Brees is arguably one of the best QB's in the league. Moreno isn't even the best back on our team, Buck is. Big difference......

BroncoWave
11-03-2009, 12:19 PM
On Moreno,

I would rather see Hillis in the first half.

Moreno in the 2nd half.

Look, it's very hard for a rookie RB to adjust to the speed in the league, the fact that he is having some success bodes well for the future. TD and Portis both struggled in their rookie year.

Using Moreno in the second half (when the D is a hair slower) will help him, rather than hinder him. (by being overwhelmed)

As for Tatum Bell, well, I wasn't a fan the first time, but, what he did last year has my sincere appreciation. He walked off the street and did everything asked of him, he was.....probably for the first time as a pro.....a team player, coachable, you could see the effort in everything he did. (Imagine "THAT" phonecall.......hey Tatum.....the Broncos called and want to know what your doing Sunday.....)

Good post, and I completely agree with that last part. I will forever appreciate Tatum Bell for his performance at the end of last season, especially in the San Diego game. He was pretty much the only player who showed up that night. I was disappointed that he didn't get invited back to camp this year.

jhildebrand
11-03-2009, 02:22 PM
and the last one was BS, but it counts....

Why? Because of the hit by Reed?

If so, I have seen backs hit far harder than that and hold on to the ball.



as someone mentioned Adrian peterson was the most fumble prone back his rookie year.......

Don't you think they are different RB's as far as build and running style?? AP is quite an upright runner.

Chris Johnson had one fumble his rookie year. Steve Slaton only had a few. Moreno has three in three starts. I think that should be a concern for anybody.

TXBRONC
11-03-2009, 04:33 PM
It's concern but it's fixable.

Dzone
11-03-2009, 09:13 PM
Running up the middle will get nothing from moreno or hillis

KCL
11-03-2009, 09:22 PM
Running up the middle will get nothing from moreno or hillis

:welcome:


:D

LRtagger
11-03-2009, 09:25 PM
I would sit Hamilton before I would sit Moreno.

topscribe
11-03-2009, 09:34 PM
Running up the middle will get nothing from moreno or hillis

Welcome to the board. :welcome:

See LRtagger's response below, to which I agree . . .


I would sit Hamilton before I would sit Moreno.

QFT.

-----

WTE
11-03-2009, 10:05 PM
Did the infighting begin already?

The People's Champ
11-03-2009, 10:10 PM
I agree, Knowshon should be our #2 RB. Not because I think Knowshon has been playing bad enough to get benched, but I just think Buck has been playing out of his mind, and should be our every down back, with Knowshon getting 5-10 carries a game. Jordan should get none by the way lol:beer:

The People's Champ
11-03-2009, 10:11 PM
Did the infighting begin already?

18-1

lolololololololololololol

nevcraw
11-03-2009, 10:13 PM
I dont care who runs the rock, but i expect a better shwoing this week. Clady's side.

Also expect more hillis touches.

shank
11-04-2009, 12:30 AM
anyone who wants to play buck over moreno because of the fumbles is stupid.

put me on board with getting hillis involved early to wear down defenses, and let moreno get the bulk in the 2nd half, spelled by buck. everyone benefits.

Elevation inc
11-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Why? Because of the hit by Reed?

If so, I have seen backs hit far harder than that and hold on to the ball.



Don't you think they are different RB's as far as build and running style?? AP is quite an upright runner.

Chris Johnson had one fumble his rookie year. Steve Slaton only had a few. Moreno has three in three starts. I think that should be a concern for anybody.


and now chris johnson has 3 and slaton has seven so.....what they are getting worse....lol

Elevation inc
11-04-2009, 08:28 AM
I agree, Knowshon should be our #2 RB. Not because I think Knowshon has been playing bad enough to get benched, but I just think Buck has been playing out of his mind, and should be our every down back, with Knowshon getting 5-10 carries a game. Jordan should get none by the way lol:beer:

buck just ran for 18 yds on 8 carries at 2.8 a pop......thats playing out of his mind???? he also missed some key blitz pick-ups the last few games....


both buck and moreno......have things to work on and so does our interior OL.....

Dreadnought
11-04-2009, 09:43 AM
buck just ran for 18 yds on 8 carries at 2.8 a pop......thats playing out of his mind???? he also missed some key blitz pick-ups the last few games....


both buck and moreno......have things to work on and so does our interior OL.....

Buck played very well his first 6 games, but certainly did lay an egg against the Ratbirds, no question. His blitz pickups were amateurish

Denver Native (Carol)
11-04-2009, 09:57 AM
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79429

If it helps, no one is less satisfied with Moreno's performance than the kid himself.

"No, I'm not pleased at all," he said. "I need a lot of improvement. I don't want to use the excuse that I'm a rookie. I feel like I should be doing more. I'm just going to keep trying to learn from meetings and keep working hard and keep running."

Evaluate the careers of all the great NFL running backs, and rarely does one follow another. For every Chris Johnson or Adrian Peterson, who were among the league's top five backs in each of their first two seasons, there is a Cedric Benson or a Thomas Jones, who never rushed for more than 750 yards in any of their first four seasons.

LaDainian Tomlinson lost four fumbles as a rookie — only three in his eight seasons since. The top two running backs drafted in 2008, Oakland's Darren McFadden (No. 4 overall) and Carolina's Jon- athan Stewart (No. 13), rushed for 499 and 836 yards, respectively, in their rookie seasons.

Moreno is on pace for 960 yards.

"He's done a nice job, but as a young player, a rookie in a new system, you're going to make some mistakes," Broncos offensive coordinator Mike McCoy said. "He makes a lot more good plays than he does bad plays, but he has made some mistakes in the past that he knows about, and we're trying to correct those as quickly as we can so they don't happen again."

What often happens to rookie tailbacks, especially conscientious types like Moreno, is they can allocate too much concentration on their assignments and coaches' instruction.

Backs need instincts, not thoughts. There can be greater freedom to move when the mind doesn't get in the way. This is why some running backs don't take off until after their rookie seasons.

Yet, lessons must be learned. Moreno's first two fumbles were on him, as there is an adjustment to the violence that comes with an NFL tackle. His fumble Sunday at Baltimore, though, was more to the credit of the ferocious hit Ravens safety Ed Reed laid on Moreno a split second after the running back caught a lob screen pass from Orton.

"I wish we would have blocked the missile that hit him," said Broncos coach Josh McDaniels, before adding: "He has got to hang onto the ball, and he would be the first one to say that."

Said Moreno, who like so many Broncos players, is judicious with his words when talking to the press: "It was kind of a slow-developing play, but (Reed) made a good play. It worked in their favor."

broncohead
11-04-2009, 01:08 PM
If we ran any I formations I think we would be better running the ball because we'd have a lead blocker.

broncofaninfla
11-04-2009, 01:43 PM
anyone who wants to play buck over moreno because of the fumbles is stupid.

put me on board with getting hillis involved early to wear down defenses, and let moreno get the bulk in the 2nd half, spelled by buck. everyone benefits.

I don't want Buck to get more carries because of fumbles, I want him to get more carries because he is clearly a better back at this point. I agree it's time to see Hillis how can contribute to this offensive scheme because it's obvious that McD likes a power running game and he is our biggest back and ran with power last year.

jhildebrand
11-04-2009, 09:56 PM
and now chris johnson has 3 and slaton has seven so.....what they are getting worse....lol

They are getting worse when it comes to fumbles. I would think that is pretty clear. How would you argue anything to the contrary?

3 fumbles in 3 starts should be an issue for most fans. Shoot, people were ready to cut Hillis for a false start in the redzone but many of those same people will give Moreno a freee pass :confused: Looks like the dichotomy between shanahan guys goes beyond the coaching staff and into the stands now eh?

Elevation inc
11-05-2009, 02:50 AM
They are getting worse when it comes to fumbles. I would think that is pretty clear. How would you argue anything to the contrary?

3 fumbles in 3 starts should be an issue for most fans. Shoot, people were ready to cut Hillis for a false start in the redzone but many of those same people will give Moreno a freee pass :confused: Looks like the dichotomy between shanahan guys goes beyond the coaching staff and into the stands now eh?

well i dont give hillis a free pass at all.....he is a second year player he should know better, and dont lump me into something i havent been a part of....dont assume with out knowledege you know what your talking about regarding my views.....

my point is moreno needs to work on his fumbilits but how can he do that by sitting him...whats the point......rookies make mistakes while they adjust to the NFL its really a simple concept....but he certainly hasnt been any worse than other rookies in the past including portis and davis...

buck was 8 carries for 18 yds.....should we talk about how he needs to run better to, should we talk about the 2 short conversions he didnt make that could have sustained drives......

the entire run offesne and interior OL need work as well as playcalling...blaming moreno as our lead sinner because of 3 fumbles is just blind, when looking at the big picture regarding the run game.....

shank
11-05-2009, 03:03 AM
...in related new, EI's great post went ignored because the townspeople were too busy lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks...

Elevation inc
11-05-2009, 03:20 AM
...in related new, EI's great post went ignored because the townspeople were too busy lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks...

i can already feel the pitchforks pinching my ass, defending anyone on this site gets you blasted plain and simple and lumped in with the shanny haters or lovers, bears fans anew, cutler lovers or haters, orton haters.....objectivity has no place here

stuff just gets so childish when we are 6-1 and having a great season...we all have worries regarding our players and team after a loss including me, but the need to scrutinize and minimize the impact of different peoples oipinons or act like every linear thought not mainstream means the sky is falling is wack....to a point where it gets stupid to read these threads anymore....its just crazy....

the whole team was responsible for our loss to the ravens and while some individuals may have had a more maginifed responsibility or error, the fact is we shouldnt be seeing sit knowshon, bench orton, or where are these posters who didnt belive at the beginning of the year. or i told you so becasue we lost

we should be seeing threads that are constructive regarding what issues need to be fixed, and how us as fans see ways the team can be better., while we all ride the train to the common goal known as the playoffs...

benching orton, or knowshon threads, this player is a bust thread, this player sucks with out facts threads, this poster sucks becasue he was wrong threads are shit i expect to see in GD at the mania, which is why i liked GD here to begin with....becasue i didnt see that much of it here

Knowshon has a fumbling problem that needs to be fixed, orton doesnt have great mobility and accuracy on deep throws like deep outs and ins, not the long bomb, the defense didnt adjust well last game, they tackled poorly, covered poorly, the OL struggled....these are all legit issues, but instead of constructively talking about them, we have 2 sides of the spectrum...hater and lovers with very few people that ride that objective line.

its a free forum and a good one at that, but i just wish i felt better about coming here knowing i was gonna read something constructive instead of constant attacks and battles when the team has started out better than anyone thought possible before we started


just ranting....im tired so this probally all seems like gibberish:lol:

honz
11-05-2009, 04:17 AM
Fact: Moreno is our best back.

Timmy!
11-05-2009, 06:23 AM
Fact: Moreno is our best back.

Fact: Sometimes good teams have terrible games.

broncofaninfla
11-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Fact: Moreno is our best back.

LOL! Not even close. Buck is our best back right now. In time Moreno better be our best back but right now the kid takes a back seat to Buck.

Tned
11-05-2009, 07:28 AM
...in related new, EI's great post went ignored because the townspeople were too busy lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks...

Yep, it happens far too often these days. People are so focused on pre-judging other poster's positions or motives, that they respond based on those prejudices, rather than everyone just being open and talking football and not ASSUMING they know what motivation any given poster has for his/her opinion. People accepting the fact that posters are going to have different points of views, and not feeling they must attack or belittle those that hold a POV that differs from their own.

In related news, we are 6-1....

jhildebrand
11-05-2009, 04:56 PM
well i dont give hillis a free pass at all.....he is a second year player he should know better, and dont lump me into something i havent been a part of....dont assume with out knowledege you know what your talking about regarding my views.....

my point is moreno needs to work on his fumbilits but how can he do that by sitting him...whats the point......rookies make mistakes while they adjust to the NFL its really a simple concept....but he certainly hasnt been any worse than other rookies in the past including portis and davis...

buck was 8 carries for 18 yds.....should we talk about how he needs to run better to, should we talk about the 2 short conversions he didnt make that could have sustained drives......

the entire run offesne and interior OL need work as well as playcalling...blaming moreno as our lead sinner because of 3 fumbles is just blind, when looking at the big picture regarding the run game.....

Why all the hostility and defensiveness, EI? :confused: I don't recall where I lumped you into anything or presumed to have inside knowledge of your views. I was simply responding to your post...playing devil's advocate if you will. No harm was meant or intended maybe you read my post with the wrong tone or the day got the better of you but it was all harmless I assure you (I already have enough of the BS you refer to at the other boards :rolleyes:).

Now on to your post. Remember I am just discussing things and having a little fun.

Hillis is a second year player but a rookie as far as games played. After all he was hurt very shortly after becoming a starter last year. But I believe he has been held to a much stricter standard than Moreno. I would think a false start would be less of a concern to a HC than fumbles. What I don't get is why one person gets the pass for being a rookie and that the only way to work it out is on the field yet Hillis needs to work his problems out any where but the field.

jhildebrand
11-05-2009, 05:19 PM
but he certainly hasnt been any worse than other rookies in the past including portis and davis.

Well let's have a look.

Total Yards After 1st 7 Games
Terrell Davis-653 (only 5 backs ahead of TD and all came after him)
Clinton Portis-583
Knowshon Moreno-484

TD's in 1st 7 games
TD-5
Portis-3
Moreno-3

Yards Per Carry in 1st 7 games
TD-3.8
Portis-5.1
Moreno-3.9

Total fumbles LOST through 1st 7 games
TD-1
Portis-1
Moreno-3

Total Carries through 1st 7 games
TD-137
Portis-103
Moreno-120

Draf Position
TD-196
Portis-51
Moreno-12

What stands out to me is Portis has 100 more yards on 17 more carries.

Italianmobstr7
11-05-2009, 06:53 PM
I haven't read anything except the OP in this thread. Don't sit Knowshon, that would be stupid. He won't get better without experience. He's lost a few fumbles but the Ed Reed one was just as much Orton's fault as it was Knowshons.

gobroncsnv
11-05-2009, 07:43 PM
agree, the qb can't lead the receiver into a chain saw massacre. He got hit full speed as soon as he caught the ball. Don't know many who would have kept possession in those circumstances. I give him a pass on that one. Some of the others, no, but definitely the latest one.

WARHORSE
11-05-2009, 08:58 PM
so why the issue with moreno in his first seven games......also if you rember correctly he was sat, then bucky proceeded to get nowhere on 4 carries....so well you do the math moreno>jordan...moreno>jordan...hillis has to earn his spot back for whatever reason...he started to last game...perhaps if it keeps up he will get his number called even more, but as of right now....thats just not the case....


If I remember correctly, Portis fumbled three times in one game. But he fixed it immediately. It wasnt a five game stretch of fumbling the ball.

WARHORSE
11-05-2009, 09:09 PM
lol according to the stats sheet he has 3 fumbles and 3 fumbles lost....guess the other 4 you think happened dont count as fumbles because they werent considered fumbles...just saying......now had he had seven legit fumbles in seven game i agree with a big benching much in the way steve slaton just got benched, but the reality is he has only 3 and is a rookie....and the last one was BS, but it counts....

as someone mentioned Adrian peterson was the most fumble prone back his rookie year.......


whats even funnier is out of the 3 legit fumbles only 1 came while running the ball on 109 carries.....the other 2 came after catches out of the backfield when he got blasted.....

Well, yeah...........I guess you think dropping the ball on the ground only counts if it shows up on the stat sheet.


And me, Im the guy that if you drop the ball four times in a game, even though one of our players gets it back.......its a problem.


See, the ONLY way the other team can recover a fumble......is for us to fumble.

So...........lets see if this makes any sense..........if we put the ball on the ground once, and the opposing team recovers it once.........vs we put the ball on the ground 5 times, and they recover it only 3 times..........lets see........HMMmmmmm..............

I guess a missed tackle only counts if it leads to a touchdown too.


In my book, every single time we put the ball down.........its a problem.
Just like every dropped pass.
And every penalty.
And every INT thrown.
And every tackle missed.
Once again.......this is a PATTERN.


And I didnt say BENCH KNOWSHON FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON.
I said bench him and make him lose carries in order to hold him accountable. Think it will make him pay attention to holding on to the ball more? History is on my side.

Common sense in my book.

TXBRONC
11-05-2009, 10:17 PM
If I remember correctly, Portis fumbled three times in one game. But he fixed it immediately. It wasnt a five game stretch of fumbling the ball.

Because of Portis' fumbling problems in the preseason he was not allowed to start the first two games of the season. But at the same time was still getting some playing time in the first two games.

Elevation inc
11-06-2009, 12:55 AM
Well, yeah...........I guess you think dropping the ball on the ground only counts if it shows up on the stat sheet.


And me, Im the guy that if you drop the ball four times in a game, even though one of our players gets it back.......its a problem.


See, the ONLY way the other team can recover a fumble......is for us to fumble.

So...........lets see if this makes any sense..........if we put the ball on the ground once, and the opposing team recovers it once.........vs we put the ball on the ground 5 times, and they recover it only 3 times..........lets see........HMMmmmmm..............

I guess a missed tackle only counts if it leads to a touchdown too.


In my book, every single time we put the ball down.........its a problem.
Just like every dropped pass.
And every penalty.
And every INT thrown.
And every tackle missed.
Once again.......this is a PATTERN.


And I didnt say BENCH KNOWSHON FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON.
I said bench him and make him lose carries in order to hold him accountable. Think it will make him pay attention to holding on to the ball more? History is on my side.

Common sense in my book.



but my friend he did get benched then bucky proceded to go out and lay a egg the next few carries, and failed a short converison that would have sustained a drive...so lo and behold rather than turn to jordan we went back to moreno.....

and perhaps i am justifying moreno to much for your liking.....i'll stop now....


i just prefer to wait more than seven games before we start benching rookies that are working there tail off for us......

Elevation inc
11-06-2009, 12:58 AM
Well, yeah...........I guess you think dropping the ball on the ground only counts if it shows up on the stat sheet.


And me, Im the guy that if you drop the ball four times in a game, even though one of our players gets it back.......its a problem.


See, the ONLY way the other team can recover a fumble......is for us to fumble.

So...........lets see if this makes any sense..........if we put the ball on the ground once, and the opposing team recovers it once.........vs we put the ball on the ground 5 times, and they recover it only 3 times..........lets see........HMMmmmmm..............

I guess a missed tackle only counts if it leads to a touchdown too.


In my book, every single time we put the ball down.........its a problem.
Just like every dropped pass.
And every penalty.
And every INT thrown.
And every tackle missed.
Once again.......this is a PATTERN.


And I didnt say BENCH KNOWSHON FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON.
I said bench him and make him lose carries in order to hold him accountable. Think it will make him pay attention to holding on to the ball more? History is on my side.

Common sense in my book.


and something interesting is fumbles on the ground still get counted on the stats sheet even if we recover them...see there are fumbles lost and fumbles...and morenos other balls on the ground so to speak were ground causing the fumble type stuff.....so i think we are just going to go in circles here


you want moreno sat, which happened, but then bucky played wack, so moreno went back in.....simple football roation really.

but hey maybe lamont jordan is the answer.....

Elevation inc
11-06-2009, 12:59 AM
Well let's have a look.

Total Yards After 1st 7 Games
Terrell Davis-653 (only 5 backs ahead of TD and all came after him)
Clinton Portis-583
Knowshon Moreno-484

TD's in 1st 7 games
TD-5
Portis-3
Moreno-3

Yards Per Carry in 1st 7 games
TD-3.8
Portis-5.1
Moreno-3.9

Total fumbles LOST through 1st 7 games
TD-1
Portis-1
Moreno-3

Total Carries through 1st 7 games
TD-137
Portis-103
Moreno-120

Draf Position
TD-196
Portis-51
Moreno-12

What stands out to me is Portis has 100 more yards on 17 more carries.



so they will even out then when moreno runs for over 100 yds this weekend against pitt right:D


SWEETNESS!!!!!!:beer:

Elevation inc
11-06-2009, 01:01 AM
Why all the hostility and defensiveness, EI? :confused: I don't recall where I lumped you into anything or presumed to have inside knowledge of your views. I was simply responding to your post...playing devil's advocate if you will. No harm was meant or intended maybe you read my post with the wrong tone or the day got the better of you but it was all harmless I assure you (I already have enough of the BS you refer to at the other boards :rolleyes:).

Now on to your post. Remember I am just discussing things and having a little fun.

Hillis is a second year player but a rookie as far as games played. After all he was hurt very shortly after becoming a starter last year. But I believe he has been held to a much stricter standard than Moreno. I would think a false start would be less of a concern to a HC than fumbles. What I don't get is why one person gets the pass for being a rookie and that the only way to work it out is on the field yet Hillis needs to work his problems out any where but the field.



thats a fair point, but hillis has not only fumbled, he has quite a few other mistakes like stupid penalties and drops as well.......guess we will just have to let it play out and let the coaches make the call:beer:

shank
11-06-2009, 01:06 AM
Well let's have a look.

Total Yards After 1st 7 Games
Terrell Davis-653 (only 5 backs ahead of TD and all came after him)
Clinton Portis-583
Knowshon Moreno-484

TD's in 1st 7 games
TD-5
Portis-3
Moreno-3

Yards Per Carry in 1st 7 games
TD-3.8
Portis-5.1
Moreno-3.9

Total fumbles LOST through 1st 7 games
TD-1
Portis-1
Moreno-3

Total Carries through 1st 7 games
TD-137
Portis-103
Moreno-120

Draf Position
TD-196
Portis-51
Moreno-12

What stands out to me is Portis has 100 more yards on 17 more carries.

why use fumbles lost as the stat? the fumble is what matters, the recovery is generally beyond the fumbler's control... if you compare fumbles, knowshon only has one more than the other two backs through 7 games (they both had 2).

otherwise... you did a very good job of proving that moreno is slightly behind two of the broncos best backs in history, production wise. if he can't outdo them, he should definitely ride the pine.

while we're at it, we should bench all of the players on our team that aren't playing above the level of the best broncos to ever play at their position.

jhildebrand
11-06-2009, 01:59 AM
why use fumbles lost as the stat? the fumble is what matters, the recovery is generally beyond the fumbler's control... if you compare fumbles, knowshon only has one more than the other two backs through 7 games (they both had 2).

otherwise... you did a very good job of proving that moreno is slightly behind two of the broncos best backs in history, production wise. if he can't outdo them, he should definitely ride the pine.

while we're at it, we should bench all of the players on our team that aren't playing above the level of the best broncos to ever play at their position.

You are absolutely right. I thought I had fumbles and fumbles lost in there.

jhildebrand
11-06-2009, 02:04 AM
so they will even out then when moreno runs for over 100 yds this weekend against pitt right:D


SWEETNESS!!!!!!:beer:

I would be cool if he was well over a hundred on his first 17 carried and then a ton more after that.

This could be his break out game much like Portis had against the Chiefs his first year when he was 21 for 130 and 3 td's. That is what i am hoping for.

Just a quick note on Hillis, I have come to believe he will get his shot. McDaniels has shown us that each week a different player will be a big part of the game plan. We have seen Royal get big games, Marshall, so on and so forth.

I wouldn't be surprised if McDaniels was holding out on Hillis in part because Larsen was down but more importantly McDaniels doesn't want to wear him out before Nov and Dec. I think any coach knows what a powerful bruiser type back is worth in the late months.

Elevation inc
11-06-2009, 02:25 AM
I would be cool if he was well over a hundred on his first 17 carried and then a ton more after that.

This could be his break out game much like Portis had against the Chiefs his first year when he was 21 for 130 and 3 td's. That is what i am hoping for.

Just a quick note on Hillis, I have come to believe he will get his shot. McDaniels has shown us that each week a different player will be a big part of the game plan. We have seen Royal get big games, Marshall, so on and so forth.

I wouldn't be surprised if McDaniels was holding out on Hillis in part because Larsen was down but more importantly McDaniels doesn't want to wear him out before Nov and Dec. I think any coach knows what a powerful bruiser type back is worth in the late months.


and yes hillis could very well be that guy we look to late....also he was targeted 5 times more than the week prior and had 2 catches, i thought it showed to me he was working his way back into a offesive role.....could be we see alot of him monday......

WARHORSE
11-06-2009, 02:15 PM
but my friend he did get benched then bucky proceded to go out and lay a egg the next few carries, and failed a short converison that would have sustained a drive...so lo and behold rather than turn to jordan we went back to moreno.....



He got benched and then went back in.....




and perhaps i am justifying moreno to much for your liking.....i'll stop now....


i just prefer to wait more than seven games before we start benching rookies that are working there tail off for us......


Thats you. Id rather he held onto the ball instead. Im sure they began talkin to him after the first drop. Continued fumbling after seven games............ Guess it has to go on for perhaps.......oh letsee.........10 games before its an issue? A season?







I dont think thats a benching when youre already sharing carries with Buck.

Does that make any sense for ya? A benching in which you sit out four plays then come back in? Your idea of benching and mine are different. No wonder theres disagreement.

Send Hillis in there to take his carries.......that will get his attention.


Id hate to bruise his ego, or kill his fighting spirit by benching him.........Lord help us. :coffee:

WARHORSE
11-06-2009, 02:20 PM
and something interesting is fumbles on the ground still get counted on the stats sheet even if we recover them...see there are fumbles lost and fumbles...and morenos other balls on the ground so to speak were ground causing the fumble type stuff.....so i think we are just going to go in circles here


you want moreno sat, which happened, but then bucky played wack, so moreno went back in.....simple football roation really.

but hey maybe lamont jordan is the answer.....


Please no.

I'll take Hillis. I hope he can supplant Jordan as the number 3. Im sure it has to do with learning the offense. It took a little longer for Hillis to get all of Shannys offense as well, so Im sure learning McDs is taking a minute extra for him. I hope thats the case. It was good to see him on the field last week.

topscribe
11-06-2009, 02:47 PM
Kiszla: Broncos make mistake with Moreno over Buckhalter

By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post

The Broncos need more touchdowns and fewer excuses. Where to begin

That's easy.

Start veteran Correll Buckhalter at running back.

Bench prized draft choice Knowshon Moreno.

This is the time to make the upgrade, with a Steel Curtain dead ahead for the
Broncos. The Pittsburgh Steelers lay down an unforgiving law meant to
intimidate foes: Don't even bother trying to run.

"They make everybody stop running the football," coach Josh McDaniels said
Thursday.

So what can the Broncos do to fight the Steelers in a battle of wills? Put it all
on the shoulders of quarterback Kyle Orton?

Something tells me Denver better come up with a Plan B.

Better give Buckhalter an increased role in the game plan.

In an offense averaging a modest 20 points per game, McDaniels has given
Moreno 120 touches from scrimmage to 73 for Buckhalter, yet despite the
disparity in workload both Denver players have gained an identical 484 total
yards by running or catching the football.

If productivity counts for anything, then it seems to me Buckhalter deserves
to be in the huddle nearly twice as much as Moreno.

"We let them play, and we feel good about our backs. No matter who's in the
game, we think they're capable people," McDaniels said.

Here's the problem: Know-shon doesn't know all the tricks of the NFL trade,
and what the rookie doesn't know is hurting the Broncos.

Don't get me wrong. Despite all the caterwauling when Denver used the 12th
choice in the first round on Moreno, taking the 5-foot-11, 210-pound runner
out of Georgia was the right thing to do. Playing him so much while Moreno
learns on the job has been the mistake.

It's as if McDaniels is in a rush to prove wrong the doubters of his football
acumen. Could it be ego is blinding McDaniels to the fact it's Buckhalter, not
Moreno, who has been the most dangerous weapon in a Denver offense
lacking in big shots?

Despite missing the New England game with an ankle injury, Buckhalter leads
the Broncos with five gains of more than 20 yards.

After salary negotiations and a banged-up knee cost Moreno valuable time on
the field during his first NFL training camp, his apprenticeship has been done
with victory and defeat on the line. The 420 yards gained rushing speak loudly
to Moreno's natural talent. Nevertheless . . .

Whether smashing into the pile on third down or fumbling the football in a
crash, there are too many times when his rookie anxiety shows and Moreno
treats this sport like demolition derby.

It's not the speed of the game that's killing Moreno. It's failure to trust his
instincts to slow down the action. Moreno is so obsessed with picking up the
tough yards he doesn't give himself a chance to take a play to the house.
Maybe that's why his longest run in 109 attempts for Denver is 17 yards.

What Moreno must learn to break big plays is the same trait McDaniels needs
to employ in the development of his prized rookie running back: patience.

"Patience is not getting the ball and going 100 mph. In this league, the
majority of the time, if you're going 1,000 mph from the time you touch the
ball, you're not going to make a good read," said Buckhalter, whose 6.0 yards
per carry this season ranks second in the NFL behind the superb 6.9 per
attempt by Chris Johnson of Tennessee.

"When I say have patience, I don't mean running the ball at 50 percent
speed," Buckhalter added. "But you start out at maybe 70 percent. Then,
when you find the crease, you see the opening and that's when you turn it
on. Slow to the hole. Fast through the hole."

Buckhalter started four consecutive times to open the season, then got
injured, which allowed McDaniels to give the No. 1 running back job to
Moreno, and Denver's rushing production has gone on a slow, steady decline.

It's OK for Moreno to be in the game. The Broncos, however, need Buckhalter
to make more plays to win the game.

Buckhalter told me he is confident Moreno will develop the patience necessary
to exploit NFL defenses, but the talent won't appear overnight, and it might
take a whole season of hard knocks for his rookie teammate to master the
counterintuitive principle that getting ahead in this league sometimes requires
slowing down the racing brain inside your helmet.

A commitment to the running game needs to be made by Denver.

Is the Broncos' No. 1 priority to let Moreno learn by trial and error, or ride the
back of Buckhalter to the playoffs?

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13725797


I don't know whether I agree with Kiszla, but this is applicable to this thread . .

-----

dogfish
11-06-2009, 02:53 PM
see war? when kiszla agrees with you, you pretty much know you're wrong. . . . :D

jhildebrand
11-06-2009, 10:13 PM
see war? when kiszla agrees with you, you pretty much know you're wrong. . . . :D

It's never a good sign when a writer agrees with you :lol:

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 12:02 AM
I post on another Broncos forum & just ranted on this topic. McDaniels' mis-use of his tailbacks really POs me! This is my rant from the other site.

I really don't understand Josh McDaniels' non use of Hillis. Here is my rant with as many stats I can give to remind you guys how good PH is!

Peyton Hillis ran a slightly faster 40 at the combine than Knowshon: 4.58 to 4.63. Knowshon is at 3.9 YPC so far this year. Hillis ran for 5 YPC last year and had improved to 5.9 YPC against a good Jets defense and 7.3 YPC against KC in his last two games after finding his grove. Hillis is the best on the team at getting the 1st down in short yardage and is the best receiving back on the team. He scored 5 TDs in 3 1/2 games started which would project to about 23 TDs on the year and Moreno right now only has 2 TDs on 62% more carries. Hillis has a slightly faster short shuttle time than Moreno: 4.24 to 4.27. He had a longer long run (19 yards) than Knowshon on 62% less carries than Moreno last year. Hillis actually had 3- 19 yard runs in the same game against a great NY Jet defense and a 18 yarder against KC- so he has 4 longer runs than Moreno on 62% less carries. Hillis also had a 100 yard receiving game last year.

Just because Denver is winning without Hillis doesn't mean we are better off. Our running game hurt us last game in our first loss and could have hurt us in our very close escapes. Denver won every game with Hillis last year- and I'm almost certain we'd have been playoff bound if he doesn't get hurt making that spectacular circus catch. Moreno isn't as good as Hillis at this point and although Buckhalter is playing great, other than this last game, he isn't the all-round versatile back Hillis is and won't wear a D down as much. We should be using a Hillis/ Buckhalter combination, at this point, while we "slowly" groom the young Moreno to take over an aging Buckhalter's complimentary scat back role. We need Hillis if we want to keep winning to get a 1st round playoff bye. Let's make Hillis the starter and give him the damn ball! That is what makes sense...stats don't lie.

And if coach McDaniels needs a reminder just how good Hillis is, b/c I don't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HAiaY3vps

And this one shows his 100 yard receiving game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSjDe0WDuCg

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 12:05 AM
BTW, The NFL record for 30 yard runs in a season was just broken by DeAngelo Williams with 8 last year- so 30 yard runs are rare. Hillis showed he’s great at getting those 10-30 yard range runs with 3- 19 yard runs in one game against a good Jets D. He's a phenomenal all round power back that would compliment Buckhalter the way Brandon Jacobs complimented Derek Ward last year! (or Ahmad Bradshaw this year on the Giants)...Or the way Marion Barber and Felix Jones compliment each other in Dallas. Hillis' 18 yard run at KC would have been good from 50 yards BTW.

jhildebrand
11-07-2009, 12:08 AM
I post on another Broncos forum & just ranted on this topic. McDaniels' mis-use of his tailbacks really POs me! This is my rant from the other site.

I really don't understand Josh McDaniels' non use of Hillis. Here is my rant with as many stats I can give to remind you guys how good PH is!

Peyton Hillis ran a slightly faster 40 at the combine than Knowshon: 4.58 to 4.63. Knowshon is at 3.9 YPC so far this year. Hillis ran for 5 YPC last year and had improved to 5.9 YPC against a good Jets defense and 7.3 YPC against KC in his last two games after finding his grove. Hillis is the best on the team at getting the 1st down in short yardage and is the best receiving back on the team. He scored 5 TDs in 3 1/2 games started which would project to about 23 TDs on the year and Moreno right now only has 2 TDs on 62% more carries. Hillis has a slightly faster short shuttle time than Moreno: 4.24 to 4.27. He had a longer long run (19 yards) than Knowshon on 62% less carries than Moreno last year. Hillis actually had 3- 19 yard runs in the same game against a great NY Jet defense and a 18 yarder against KC- so he has 4 longer runs than Moreno on 62% less carries. Hillis also had a 100 yard receiving game last year.

Just because Denver is winning without Hillis doesn't mean we are better off. Our running game hurt us last game in our first loss and could have hurt us in our very close escapes. Denver won every game with Hillis last year- and I'm almost certain we'd have been playoff bound if he doesn't get hurt making that spectacular circus catch. Moreno isn't as good as Hillis at this point and although Buckhalter is playing great, other than this last game, he isn't the all-round versatile back Hillis is and won't wear a D down as much. We should be using a Hillis/ Buckhalter combination, at this point, while we "slowly" groom the young Moreno to take over an aging Buckhalter's complimentary scat back role. We need Hillis if we want to keep winning to get a 1st round playoff bye. Let's make Hillis the starter and give him the damn ball! That is what makes sense...stats don't lie.

And if coach McDaniels needs a reminder just how good Hillis is, b/c I don't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HAiaY3vps

And this one shows his 100 yard receiving game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSjDe0WDuCg

Welcome to the boards :welcome: I have found these boards to be much more pleasant so don't go F-ing it up by telling everybody over there to come over here :lol: I am seriously only kidding.

As for your post. Have some patience. Nobody knows what McDaiels has planned for Hillis. He did give him a public vote of confidence on Alfred Williams and DMac's show tonight. Carol posted the link (thanks Carol!). He didn't have to say any of that if he didn't believe it.

I am certain that McDaniels knows the value of a big, powerful back in November and December. We also know a different player has been featured or a big part of the game plan each week i.e. Royal, Marshall, Stokley, Scheffler. For all we know Hillis' time could be coming. Furthermore, why risk injury to the guy when Larsen was down? Lastly, I know Hillis has messed up some (I don't find them as serious as the fumble issue) but he has still messed up and we know the Patriot way is players better practice like they play and don't screw up.

99% of Bronco nation had torches burning when McDaniels shuttled Jay. He proved us wrong. I think he now gets the benefit of the doubt....right? :confused:

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 12:42 AM
He doesn't get my benefit of the doubt on his use of the tailbacks. Sure we drafted Knowshon, b/c he is great at making guys miss in VERY tight space, but Hillis FIRST lateral cut and burst to the hole at hand off, freakish tackle breaking skills, vision, BRILLIANT play last year and receiving ability doesn't belong on the bench. Hillis has a mere 4 carries this year (all in short yardage I believe and coming from the FB posiition), how has he messed up? He hasn't gotten the opportunity and even Lamont Jordan has gotten more than him and that is outrageous. Hillis honestly looked like a low 6 YPC guy like Buckhalter has been if you look at his last two games last year and he never fumbled last year. I don't know why McDaniels has put him in the doghouse, maybe it's b/c Hillis is a Shanahan guy. Maybe it's b/c the other tailbacks have made good friends and have campaigned for each other since they are all in the same boat as newbies here. Hillis and Buckhalter are by far the best options right now and Hillis should be used like a Marion Barber and Buckhalter like Felix Jones. Just b/c Moreno is going to get a chance to be an important future part of our offense doesn't mean he's OWED a starting job from day one. Hillis/Buckhalter is the best option now. Down the road that may become Hillis/Moreno (especially if Buckhalter retires in a couple years), but that isn't right now!

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 12:50 AM
BTW Thanks for the welcome jhildebrand, I appreciate it. I don't mean to rant, but I am a bit POed about the benching of my favorite player from last year for no apparent reason. BTW, I admit to being one who was upset about the Cutler saga, but we are better off without Cutler. Cutler is a jerk, and Orton is playing well and doesn't make as many boneheaded throws that leave you scratching your head. BTW, Eddie Royal was thrown to the mix as a rookie, but he performed very well. Rookies aren't OWED anything. I'm a big fan of Royal btw. We don't know what the future will hold, but Moreno doesn't deserve to immediately pass Hillis who played like a beast last year.

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 01:00 AM
I heard a stat that 4 YPC is right about the league average at tailback. That makes Buckhalter's 6 YPC this year and Hillis' 5.9 YPC and 7.3 YPC his last two games after he had figured how to play tailback out VERY impressive. Hillis may have fumbled in the pre-season, but I have never seen him fumble in a season game. Moreno has fumbled the ball away 3 times this year.

jhildebrand
11-07-2009, 01:15 AM
I admire your passion H&B! :beer:

I guess I will try to reply to your three posts here in one. Normally I try to quote specific points but I am tired and worn.

I really think the average fan down plays the Larsen injury and Hillis' role during that time. If Hillis were to get the bulk of the carries and get hurt this team would be in quite a perdicament without a FB.

Also, I know it seems like Moreno has just been handed the job. In today's NFL we fans need to remember the economics. Moreno is a #12 pick and a lot of money tied up in him. It sucks but it is just the way it is.

I was as mad as most about the Hillis deal. Shoot, he is my adopted player at both boards. However, he was given the chance early but was lining up in the wrong place. He then fumbled against Cleveland. He then had the false starts in the red zone. If you were the coach, how comfortable would you be with Hillis at that point?

Finally, this team is 6-1 without having shown much of Hillis yet. I think that is HUGE! Basically, he serves as the Ace of Spades in our back pocket to be used on an unsuspecting victim at any moment.

I know you don't feel McDaniels deserves the benefit of the doubt but he did get the Cutler deal right. It is looking like he got the pick he traded to Seattle right as well! I think figuring out the RB issue (when he is around the team daily) is a bit easier. Keep your passion and have faith. This team should be 8-2 after 10! If we are I am willing to bet Hillis has had a big part to do with it.

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 01:57 AM
Some solid points. PH's fumble I was referring too was actually on that kickoff not in the pre-season, now that I recall. But Hillis is yet to fumble the ball on a rush in a season game. Moreno has fumbled the ball 3 times and all were lost. PH was my favorite Bronco last year and he was a TAILBACK. McDaniels immediately phased him out of the offense. When you have only gotten 4 carries and all in short yardage it is hard to find your grove. I believe he only had one false start. Here is an article in Profootball Weekly that basically agrees with my points.

http://profootballweekly.com/2009/11/02/broncos-offense-needs-more-from-backs-2

I don't buy the economic argument too much. The best players are normally put on the field. Moreno signed for 5 years didn't he? So I'm sure he'll get some opportunities before his contract runs out. If he doesn't perform by then, the Broncos won't re-sign for much anyway. His salary averages to 4.6 million against the cap per year, so it wouldn't hurt us too much to slowly work him into the offense in place of the 31 year old Buckhalter. If we were to keep Hillis at FB he has at least the skills to be used like Alstott and way more skills than Le'ron McClain (4.88 40) of the Ravens.

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-07-2009, 02:01 AM
Article wouldn't copy right...try this:
(www)profootballweekly.com/2009/11/02/broncos-offense-needs-more-from-backs-2

This article basically asks the same questions I posed.

shank
11-07-2009, 04:05 AM
i agree, hillis needs to be out there.



but this anti-moreno chatter is dumb bullshit.

honz
11-07-2009, 07:38 PM
Moreno > Bucky and Hillis

Fact.

broncofanatic1987
11-07-2009, 09:11 PM
Moreno is doing better than every other rookie running back so he should stay in the game.

Buckhalter should probably be the starter and get more carries though.

I think the real problem is that the Broncos are asking an offensive line that is built for zone blocking to do too much man blocking. The interior of the line, especially, is not built to handle big, aggressive defensive lines in man on man situations. There are some things in which McDaniels needs to end his love affair with how things were done in New England and I think that is one of them. Even Tyler Polumbus is a Shanahan holdover so McDaniels has no starters that have more experience in the current scheme than they do in the zone blocking scheme.

broncofaninfla
11-07-2009, 09:51 PM
Moreno > Bucky and Hillis

Fact.


LMAO!! Moreno should be the better back but he isn't yet. Bucks our best back right now and gives us our best chance of winning. Hillis has only been used sparingly and in short yardage situations in which all of our running backs have looked bad.

claymore
11-07-2009, 09:53 PM
LMAO!! Moreno should be the better back but he isn't yet. Bucks our best back right now and gives us our best chance of winning. Hillis has only been used sparingly and in short yardage situations in which all of our running backs have looked bad.

Buck is a surprise........ And my optimistic nature hopes JMCD is saving Hillis for December. !!!

WARHORSE
11-08-2009, 01:54 AM
see war? when kiszla agrees with you, you pretty much know you're wrong. . . . :D


Yep. Its over.:D






I have indeed been spouting the very same thing about Morenos running. He needs to be slower to the hole, and trust his eyes.

WARHORSE
11-08-2009, 01:59 AM
He doesn't get my benefit of the doubt on his use of the tailbacks. Sure we drafted Knowshon, b/c he is great at making guys miss in VERY tight space, but Hillis FIRST lateral cut and burst to the hole at hand off, freakish tackle breaking skills, vision, BRILLIANT play last year and receiving ability doesn't belong on the bench. Hillis has a mere 4 carries this year (all in short yardage I believe and coming from the FB posiition), how has he messed up? He hasn't gotten the opportunity and even Lamont Jordan has gotten more than him and that is outrageous. Hillis honestly looked like a low 6 YPC guy like Buckhalter has been if you look at his last two games last year and he never fumbled last year. I don't know why McDaniels has put him in the doghouse, maybe it's b/c Hillis is a Shanahan guy. Maybe it's b/c the other tailbacks have made good friends and have campaigned for each other since they are all in the same boat as newbies here. Hillis and Buckhalter are by far the best options right now and Hillis should be used like a Marion Barber and Buckhalter like Felix Jones. Just b/c Moreno is going to get a chance to be an important future part of our offense doesn't mean he's OWED a starting job from day one. Hillis/Buckhalter is the best option now. Down the road that may become Hillis/Moreno (especially if Buckhalter retires in a couple years), but that isn't right now!


Almost every head coach who uses their number one on a player is going to see the 'upside' in that player with orange and blue glasses on.

This is where you gotta trust the other coaches in when each player should play.

Josh keeps spouting leadership about Knowshon...........well lets give it a shot by seeing what he does by losing some carries to Hillis.

Keep coaching him. Keep believing in him. But put an exclamation point on our expectations.

.........Just a little bit.:coffee:

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-08-2009, 06:41 PM
Double post sorry...Internet connection.

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-08-2009, 06:41 PM
Moreno > Bucky and Hillis

Fact.

100% not a fact. In the NFL every "FACTUAL" stat would indicate that Hillis and Buckhalter have been FAR better in Denver so far. What did Hillis do after playing like a Pro Bowler for Denver (as far as YPC and with 100 yard rushing and 100 yard receiving performances)- his last two games before getting hurt making a catch very few could make- to be completely benched. It makes no sense. Did Hillis complain about being made into a battering ram for Moreno IMMEDIATELY? Did he mouth off to McDaniels?

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-08-2009, 06:47 PM
Look, I'll agree with you that Moreno had a great college career and could end up being very good, but right now a Hillis/ Buckhalter combination would be even better than a Marion Barber/ Felix Jones combo me's thinks. Behind our offense line, Hillis is perfect. I'd compare Hillis to Beanie Wells/ Brandon Jacobs or Toby Gerhart of Stanford. He makes a quick first cut, explodes to the hole and simply won't be tackled by one man. Then he uses angles to get the most yardage he can with his slightly faster 40 time than Moreno. Moreno is better at making guys miss in a phone booth there's no doubt, but Hillis has shown the vision and freakish downhill running ability that indicates he's better "right now". And he's even shown better big play ability with 4 longer runs than Moreno on more than 60% less carries last year. These are FACTUAL statistics.

Edmonton Bronco Fan
11-08-2009, 06:47 PM
He's a god damn rookie. There are going to be some growing pains.

No reason to sit him. As I said last week, ball security can be taught - natural skill can't. Knowshon will learn to hold onto the rock sooner rather than later.

Give Buck the rock the majority of the time and use Knowshon in specific situations.

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-08-2009, 07:53 PM
I didn't say sit Moreno forever. Simply put Hillis played like a "Pro Bowler" in his short stint as a starter. He scored 5 Tds in 3 1/2 games and ran for 5.9 YPC-with 3 longer runs than Moreno so far- in one game against a great Jets defense and ran for 7.3 YPC against KC and made a circus catch which got him hurt. What indicates that Moreno has better "UPSIDE" than that? You can't have much better "upside" than that unless you played that well as a rookie and you're Adrian Peterson or Barry Sanders. Moreno is signed for 5 years and will get his shot to prove himself before his contract is up. Not trying to be a jerk, but simply put this "upside" talk makes no sense and the best should play. I guess Hillis was an overachiever and just couldn't keep that up right? Sarcasm. Does this mean that Hillis has "downside"? You might be able to say Buckhalter has downside b/c he's 31, but Hillis is only 23 years old. I don't see that he has downside. Hillis is a Beanie Wells/ Brandon Jacobs/ larger Michael Turner/ Toby Gerhart clone!

Hillis&Buckhalter
11-08-2009, 08:16 PM
I also should add, I'm glad that Buckhalter is playing well, but the man isn't going to run for 6 YPC every game. Using a powerback (like PH) to split carries with Buck would wear down the defense and allow Buckhalter to tire the defense by making guys miss and then winding them by chasing after him. These two compliment each other perfectly. Down the road I see the same with Moreno (in Bucks place) and Hillis, but we have to win now! I'm not anti-Moreno and think he'll probably figure it out, but I subscribe to the win now theory.