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Cugel
11-01-2009, 05:24 PM
Kyle Orton, like Brian Griese doesn't have the arm strength to throw deep passes downfield. He's a good pocket passer on short-to-medium range passes, especially if teams give him time to throw. He can throw deep if he can take a big step up and get some momentum into his throw. But, he doesn't have a great arm, so if he gets pressure up the middle at all, he has trouble. If he has to unload in a hurry, he can't throw deep. He's not particularly good throwing on the run when he can't get his feet squared and get his momentum into the throw.

What teams can be expected to do is pack 8 defenders into the box to clog the short passing lanes, and put pressure in Orton's face and then dare him to throw deep. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for other teams to successfully use this strategy.

We saw this in 2000-2002. Teams figured out that Griese couldn't beat them deep with a deep passing game. And he wasn't mobile enough to roll out and buy time and not accurate throwing off the run.

He -- like Orton was deadly accurate if you gave him enough time and opportunity to hit the open WR over the short middle. He, like Orton was a rhythm passer. If you let him get into a rhythm, he's going to burn you.

But Griese's limitations are why Shanahan went to Jake Plummer. The idea was that Jake was more athletic and mobile and could roll out and throw off the run, buying time for the WRs to get open.

Well that didn't work either. They had some success but, teams like the Steelers realized that you could bring pressure off the edges and keep Jake in the pocket and prevent him from rolling out. Then he couldn't beat you because he wasn't much of a pocket passer.

In 2006 Shanahan, tiring of this decided to draft Jay Cutler. Cutler could stretch the field and keep the defense honest. Teams couldn't crowd the line with 7 or 8 men and blitz him consistently, because he could beat the blitz by throwing downfield. It was too dangerous -- especially when Brandon Marshall became such a good WR threat.

Now with Orton we're back to square one.

The Ravens put on a clinic on how to beat the Broncos and Kyle Orton. Put 8 men in the box. Dare him to throw deep. Get pressure in his face and try and force him to move around in the pocket.

McDaniels is going to have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what he can do to stop teams from bringing that kind of pressure. His offensive line struggled all day.

And remember that that OL was one of the best in the NFL last season. Cutler was only sacked 11 times all year. That's outstanding.

Of course Orton has been sacked 11 times in 7 games and is on pace to be sacked 25 times this year. That's rather a lot when you have one of the best OLs in football!

It points out that Orton is NOT a very mobile QB and can't make plays with his feet. That's not a fatal weakness. Peyton Manning isn't a threat to run either. But, the Colts OL has been built to protect Manning and he has the arm and more importantly, the skill to "sniff out the blitz" as the announcers said today -- and then get the ball accurately to the open WR.

Teams have essentially given up on the idea of blitzing Manning to beat him -- he makes them pay too often (117 passer rating when he's blitzed).

It's not fair to Orton to compare him unfavorably with Manning, but the Broncos are going to either figure out some way to keep defenders out of Orton's face and give him time to throw -- which will be VERY difficult when he's such an immobile target -- or else do what Shanny did and draft a franchise QB with a live arm who can put the fear of god into defenses with his threat to throw deep.

Thus, keeping them honest and preventing them from doing what the Ravens did to Orton today.

Brand
11-01-2009, 05:25 PM
Oh, woe is us!!!!

I call BS on that.....

BroncoJoe
11-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Yeah. Let's get a rocket armed QB soon.

Oh, wait...

Northman
11-01-2009, 05:34 PM
I knew it wouldnt be long before someone would jump ship. Bmore won because they needed too more than Denver. Sorry if thats not what you want to hear but they were far more desperate on this day than Denver was. Yes, they played much better than they did the last 3 weeks defensively but Denver struggles in Bmore no matter who the Qb is. Also, Denver never took any real shots down the field, thats not a Qb problem, thats a playcalling problem. And for the record, Flacco didnt launch bombs all day either they were just able to protect their QB far better than Denver did today. Broncos will regroup.

weazel
11-01-2009, 05:39 PM
Kyle Orton, like Brian Griese doesn't have the arm strength to throw deep passes downfield. He's a good pocket passer on short-to-medium range passes, especially if teams give him time to throw. He can throw deep if he can take a big step up and get some momentum into his throw. But, he doesn't have a great arm, so if he gets pressure up the middle at all, he has trouble. If he has to unload in a hurry, he can't throw deep. He's not particularly good throwing on the run when he can't get his feet squared and get his momentum into the throw.

What teams can be expected to do is pack 8 defenders into the box to clog the short passing lanes, and put pressure in Orton's face and then dare him to throw deep. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for other teams to successfully use this strategy.

We saw this in 2000-2002. Teams figured out that Griese couldn't beat them deep with a deep passing game. And he wasn't mobile enough to roll out and buy time and not accurate throwing off the run.

He -- like Orton was deadly accurate if you gave him enough time and opportunity to hit the open WR over the short middle. He, like Orton was a rhythm passer. If you let him get into a rhythm, he's going to burn you.

But Griese's limitations are why Shanahan went to Jake Plummer. The idea was that Jake was more athletic and mobile and could roll out and throw off the run, buying time for the WRs to get open.

Well that didn't work either. They had some success but, teams like the Steelers realized that you could bring pressure off the edges and keep Jake in the pocket and prevent him from rolling out. Then he couldn't beat you because he wasn't much of a pocket passer.

In 2006 Shanahan, tiring of this decided to draft Jay Cutler. Cutler could stretch the field and keep the defense honest. Teams couldn't crowd the line with 7 or 8 men and blitz him consistently, because he could beat the blitz by throwing downfield. It was too dangerous -- especially when Brandon Marshall became such a good WR threat.

Now with Orton we're back to square one.

The Ravens put on a clinic on how to beat the Broncos and Kyle Orton. Put 8 men in the box. Dare him to throw deep. Get pressure in his face and try and force him to move around in the pocket.

McDaniels is going to have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what he can do to stop teams from bringing that kind of pressure. His offensive line struggled all day.

And remember that that OL was one of the best in the NFL last season. Cutler was only sacked 11 times all year. That's outstanding.

Of course Orton has been sacked 11 times in 7 games and is on pace to be sacked 25 times this year. That's rather a lot when you have one of the best OLs in football!

It points out that Orton is NOT a very mobile QB and can't make plays with his feet. That's not a fatal weakness. Peyton Manning isn't a threat to run either. But, the Colts OL has been built to protect Manning and he has the arm and more importantly, the skill to "sniff out the blitz" as the announcers said today -- and then get the ball accurately to the open WR.

Teams have essentially given up on the idea of blitzing Manning to beat him -- he makes them pay too often (117 passer rating when he's blitzed).

It's not fair to Orton to compare him unfavorably with Manning, but the Broncos are going to either figure out some way to keep defenders out of Orton's face and give him time to throw -- which will be VERY difficult when he's such an immobile target -- or else do what Shanny did and draft a franchise QB with a live arm who can put the fear of god into defenses with his threat to throw deep.

Thus, keeping them honest and preventing them from doing what the Ravens did to Orton today.

our O-Line was being manhandled and pushed around like a junior varsity team and your blaming Orton for the lack of time?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So Orton isn't a great deep ball thrower? how enlightening! I dont think anyone here knew that until you mentioned it! genius!

Cugel
11-01-2009, 05:40 PM
Yeah. Let's get a rocket armed QB soon.

Oh, wait...

Did you see Joe Flacco make that throw with Brian Dawkins draped all over him? Any lessons there? Does strength and athleticism count?

Why do you suppose that Shanahan drafted Jay Cutler in the first place? Was it because he was an idiot, who just didn't realize that having a strong arm doesn't matter in the NFL?

Why do other teams year after year make strong armed QBs top 1/2 of the first round draft picks? Why was Vince Young drafted #2 overall when he clearly had some limitations that are all too obvious to Titans fans today?!

Year after year NFL GMs make strong-armed QBs the top priority in the draft. Do you know something they don't? :coffee:

Denver can do one of two things:

1. Get much bigger OL who can stand up and block the rush or devise a scheme to keep DL off him and give him time to throw.

As I've pointed out, this is what the Colts did for Peyton Manning, who is probably slower and less of a threat to run than Orton and who is NOT mobile and does NOT play well when he's forced from the pocket.

The Patriots beat him in the playoffs doing just that.

2. Get a new QB who can threaten the deep ball, thus forcing defenses to be honest.

I'd say it's a coin-flip which course they take in the long term. In the short term, you've already seen what McDaniels will try:

Some designed rollouts and quick passes designed either to buy time for Orton to throw downfield, or else get the ball out of his hands.

That is exactly what Shanahan tried to do with Brian Griese. When it didn't work he signed Jake Plummer. But, teams adjusted to Jake's weaknesses too.

Ergo Jay Cutler.

weazel
11-01-2009, 05:44 PM
Did you see Joe Flacco make that throw with Brian Dawkins draped all over him? Any lessons there? Does strength and athleticism count?

Why do you suppose that Shanahan drafted Jay Cutler in the first place? Was it because he was an idiot, who just didn't realize that having a strong arm doesn't matter in the NFL?

Why do other teams year after year make strong armed QBs top 1/2 of the first round draft picks? Why was Vince Young drafted #2 overall when he clearly had some limitations that are all too obvious to Titans fans today?!

Year after year NFL GMs make strong-armed QBs the top priority in the draft. Do you know something they don't? :coffee:

Denver can do one of two things:

1. Get much bigger OL who can stand up and block the rush or devise a scheme to keep DL off him and give him time to throw.

As I've pointed out, this is what the Colts did for Peyton Manning, who is probably slower and less of a threat to run than Orton and who is NOT mobile and does NOT play well when he's forced from the pocket.

The Patriots beat him in the playoffs doing just that.

2. Get a new QB who can threaten the deep ball, thus forcing defenses to be honest.

I'd say it's a coin-flip which course they take in the long term. In the short term, you've already seen what McDaniels will try:

Some designed rollouts and quick passes designed either to buy time for Orton to throw downfield, or else get the ball out of his hands.

That is exactly what Shanahan tried to do with Brian Griese. When it didn't work he signed Jake Plummer. But, teams adjusted to Jake's weaknesses too.

Ergo Jay Cutler.

okay I think I got it, so we should sign a bunch of fat 360 pound guys to play the line and get Jeff George off the couch and we got a winner baby!!!!! :beer:

can you feel it? CHAMPIONSHIP!!! :elefant:

Cugel
11-01-2009, 05:44 PM
our O-Line was being manhandled and pushed around like a junior varsity team and your blaming Orton for the lack of time?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

hilarious

This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?

weazel
11-01-2009, 05:47 PM
This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?

ummmm, did you watch the game? The Baltimore DLine was in Ortons face the whole game. You could not have watched the game, I'm sorry.

Dirk
11-01-2009, 05:48 PM
OMG!!! The sky is falling!!!!


C'mon...it was one loss and the Ravens played lights out football. Give them credit.

Orton is fine. The Ravens defense was awesome today. It's funny how 1 loss in 7 games and it's get rid of the QB. Wow

KCL
11-01-2009, 05:49 PM
Orton doesn't play defense either...good lord..one loss...get a grip.

Northman
11-01-2009, 05:51 PM
This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?


I dont know what game you were watching but it had nothing to do with Orton's mobility. Or were you talking about that 10 yd first down run in the first quarter that he ran for? It wasnt like Bmore was blitzing like crazy. Fact is, this was the first time this year that i saw the Denver Oline get used like a dirty tampon. Sorry chap, this isnt on Orton. The Oline played like garbage both in protection and in creating holes for the backs. Throw in the bad play by the special teams or the dropped passes by guys like Marshall i think you can say it was a bad game all around.

Cugel
11-01-2009, 05:53 PM
okay I think I got it, so we should sign a bunch of fat 360 pound guys to play the line and get Jeff George off the couch and we got a winner baby!!!!! :beer:

can you feel it? CHAMPIONSHIP!!! :elefant:

Way to knock down a straw man! Good job!

Let me fill in the blanks for the reading-challenged.

Denver has one of the best OLs in football, but they are SMALLER and more mobile. They don't excel at straight drop-back pass blocking.

McDaniels came in and changed Denver's zone-blocking scheme that had worked so well for years under Mike Shanahan. Fine. He's the coach and is entitled to use any system he thinks will work. I'm certainly not going to second guess him there. It worked well enough for 6 games.

But, Cutler was a different type of QB to Orton. He was MUCH more mobile and athletic in evading the rush.

And McDaniels SHOWED us what he will try to do to help Orton: 1) call plays that get rid of the ball quickly, 2) try and move Orton around a bit to buy some time for a play to open up.

Possibly they might go more to the run. I don't know, he's the expert.

But, I DO know that Shanahan who was NO SLOUCH when it came to designing an offense eventually gave up on this "system QB" experiment and after trying and failing with Plummer decided that he had to bite the bullet and go the conventional route: draft a strong arm QB and develop him into an elite QB.

Will it work with Orton? I'm skeptical quite frankly.

No, it's not a disaster, and teams HAVE been able to adapt before now. I pointed out the Colts as a perfect example. Peyton Manning is NOT "mobile or athletic." He's NO threat to run. Eli Manning got all the legs in that family.

But, obviously he's been wildly successful.

But, if Orton is the future, then McDaniels is going to have to reconsider long-term what kind of OL he wants. And yes, that MIGHT mean getting some 350 lbs. guys who aren't that swift but can stand up pass-blocking and just stone-wall guys. (He ought to be able to keep Ryan Clady who is a great blocker and weighs 330 lbs.)

That's one option at least.

KCL
11-01-2009, 05:54 PM
I watched all of the game except the last 5 minutes...The Ravens just played better football...they're a good team too..it sucks to lose...trust me I know what I'm talking about there but really you cannot expect your team to win every game...I mean seriously..don't have a meltdown over it....:lol:

EastCoastBronco
11-01-2009, 05:57 PM
How long have you been saving that speech Cugel? **** sake. Just waiting eh? It was bound to happen. You don't need to jump ship just yet. Oh....Wait...Maybe you do. **** off...

Cugel
11-01-2009, 05:58 PM
I dont know what game you were watching but it had nothing to do with Orton's mobility. Or were you talking about that 10 yd first down run in the first quarter that he ran for? It wasnt like Bmore was blitzing like crazy. Fact is, this was the first time this year that i saw the Denver Oline get used like a dirty tampon. Sorry chap, this isnt on Orton. The Oline played like garbage both in protection and in creating holes for the backs. Throw in the bad play by the special teams or the dropped passes by guys like Marshall i think you can say it was a bad game all around.

I agree with you partly. I don't think Orton can really be blamed for this loss. That's not my point.

Did Orton throw any picks? Was it his fault that the defense and special teams gave up 30 points? I'd say NO. Should he have been expected to score 31 to beat the Ravens? That's asking rather a lot when their defense was playing so well.

So, yes. If all you are pointing to is one game. Orton isn't all to blame.

My point is much broader than that.

Other teams WILL look at this game as a template of how to beat the Broncos. Not every team will be able to do it of course. But, all will try.

It's a copy-cat league. EVERY defense the Broncos face will try and put 8 men up in the box and try and get pressure in Orton's face and make him throw quickly and blanket the short passing lanes.

Until the Broncos prove they can beat it.

It's like in baseball: until you can prove you can consistently hit the curve-ball pitchers are going to keep throwing curve-balls. Period.

Of course, that leaves the deeper routes open in single coverage. If Orton COULD buy some time the way Flacco did today, and if Orton had an arm like Flacco he could make the defense play honest by beating them deep -- the way Flacco did by throwing to Mason. But, Orton's strengths are not stretching the field-- as the announcers pointed out in the first half. Perhaps you heard that.

weazel
11-01-2009, 06:00 PM
This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?

my argument?
Clady is good.
Harris was out with an injury (again, did you watch the game?)
Hamilton looks overmatched
Weigman looks average at best.

Medford Bronco
11-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Yeah. Let's get a rocket armed QB soon.

Oh, wait...

You mean are Jeff George and Bill Joe Tolliver availble

Medford Bronco
11-01-2009, 06:03 PM
our O-Line was being manhandled and pushed around like a junior varsity team and your blaming Orton for the lack of time?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So Orton isn't a great deep ball thrower? how enlightening! I dont think anyone here knew that until you mentioned it! genius!

Neither was joe Montana (not that Orton is him)
and how did that work out for him

horsepig
11-01-2009, 06:08 PM
Cugel makes some valid points; the OL is showing some weaknesses (#50), Orton has some weaknesses too, where was our down-the-field game against a team with a percieved wek secondary, where were our TE's when the Ravens have been killed all year by receiving TE's, etc...

Requiem / The Dagda
11-01-2009, 06:10 PM
A lot of criticism from the guy who said we'd at best get a second round pick for Jay Cutler. LOL.

Cugel
11-01-2009, 06:10 PM
my argument?
Clady is good.
Harris was out with an injury (again, did you watch the game?)
Hamilton looks overmatched
Weigman looks average at best.

Ain't just one game now is it? Only 2 sacks of Orton today. That's not a HUGE amount. But, he's on pace to being sacked 25 times this season. 11 times in 7 games IS a lot. And it IS a problem.

And no, I don't blame the OL. They had a tough job today. Normally, the answer to such tactics the Ravens used is to stretch the field and go deep to a WR who beats one-on-one coverage for a big play. If they can do that once or twice, the defense is going to think twice about bringing so many defenders close to the line, and leaving the WRs open downfield.

That's called "keeping the defense honest." And it's essential for a team to be successful in this "pass-happy" league.

Can Denver do that with Orton? I'm frankly skeptical they can. But, McDaniels certainly is going to look at the game film and try and get better protection and design some plays to try and take advantage of defenses that crowd the box.

You saw a bit of that in the 2nd half. You will see a lot MORE of it in the next few games as other teams try and do what the Ravens did today.

Cugel
11-01-2009, 06:16 PM
A lot of criticism from the guy who said we'd at best get a second round pick for Jay Cutler. LOL.

What? I never said that.

I questioned whether teams would try and take advantage of Cutler's feud with Broncos management to low-ball the Broncos. That's normal when a player gets into a fight with management and they HAVE to trade him.

But that was BEFORE the team announced he'd be traded-- and 20 teams expressed interest in getting him and about 6 wanted to get into a bidding war for him.

Then when McDaniels decided he wanted a veteran QB and the best available was Orton, teams like the Jets and Redskins and others were STEAMING MAD at the Broncos that they weren't allowed to try and TOP the Bears' offer by adding even MORE draft picks -- maybe as many as 3 first round picks.

Clearly, the Broncos didn't handle anything about the Cutler situation well. McDaniels decision to try and get Matt Cassel?

How stupid does THAT look right now that Cassel is playing his way out of KC and will probably finish the season BENCHED. A $50 million flop! :coffee:

But, what does any of that stuff about Cutler have to do with anything that's happening right now?

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2009, 06:20 PM
Forget the stuff about arm strength. We just went through 3 years of a guy with arm strength making throws under pressure that results in interceptions. NO thanks to that.

We need a QB that's cerebral. There's a difference.

LoyalSoldier
11-01-2009, 06:20 PM
Pressure on Orton was a problem, I am not going to lie about that.

Although the problem still remains that we don't have much of a deep passing game one way or the other. If we can not keep the defense honest then our offense isn't going anywhere. Today was a perfect example of what the lack of a deep game does to a team.

Slick
11-01-2009, 06:21 PM
Balls. Bullshit. Please...you aren't allowed to come in here in week 8 and pull this crap. We were fine through 6 games. I bet you've been waiting for this all season. I bet you're even glad we lost.

Northman
11-01-2009, 06:21 PM
I agree with you partly. I don't think Orton can really be blamed for this loss. That's not my point.

Did Orton throw any picks? Was it his fault that the defense and special teams gave up 30 points? I'd say NO. Should he have been expected to score 31 to beat the Ravens? That's asking rather a lot when their defense was playing so well.

So, yes. If all you are pointing to is one game. Orton isn't all to blame.

My point is much broader than that.

Other teams WILL look at this game as a template of how to beat the Broncos. Not every team will be able to do it of course. But, all will try.

It's a copy-cat league. EVERY defense the Broncos face will try and put 8 men up in the box and try and get pressure in Orton's face and make him throw quickly and blanket the short passing lanes.

Until the Broncos prove they can beat it.

It's like in baseball: until you can prove you can consistently hit the curve-ball pitchers are going to keep throwing curve-balls. Period.

Of course, that leaves the deeper routes open in single coverage. If Orton COULD buy some time the way Flacco did today, and if Orton had an arm like Flacco he could make the defense play honest by beating them deep -- the way Flacco did by throwing to Mason. But, Orton's strengths are not stretching the field-- as the announcers pointed out in the first half. Perhaps you heard that.


Of course other teams will look at it. But honestly, some team was bound to figure it out anyway. Never the less, it was up to McD to come in with a gameplan that wasnt so predictable. But that still has nothing to do with Orton's arm strength. Ive seen in past games and even at the end of today's game that he can get it down the field. The problem is the playcalling just isnt asking him to take shots down the field. I think it would benefit us to start taking some just to loosen up opposing defenses. Although Flacco does have a stronger arm he did not go down the field much if at all today. But the fact that Rice was able to run the ball made Flacco's life much easier. Cant say the same for Orton who was under contant pressure all day and no running game. The only shock i really saw offensively was when Hillis came in on the goalline to lead for Moreno on the lone TD. Outside of that McD had no answers for the Raven pressure or scheme. But the players in general just didnt seem that interested today. It happens but im not ready to concede that Qb is the problem here.

weazel
11-01-2009, 06:21 PM
Ain't just one game now is it? Only 2 sacks of Orton today. That's not a HUGE amount. But, he's on pace to being sacked 25 times this season. 11 times in 7 games IS a lot. And it IS a problem.

And no, I don't blame the OL. They had a tough job today. Normally, the answer to such tactics the Ravens used is to stretch the field and go deep to a WR who beats one-on-one coverage for a big play. If they can do that once or twice, the defense is going to think twice about bringing so many defenders close to the line, and leaving the WRs open downfield.

That's called "keeping the defense honest." And it's essential for a team to be successful in this "pass-happy" league.

Can Denver do that with Orton? I'm frankly skeptical they can. But, McDaniels certainly is going to look at the game film and try and get better protection and design some plays to try and take advantage of defenses that crowd the box.

You saw a bit of that in the 2nd half. You will see a lot MORE of it in the next few games as other teams try and do what the Ravens did today.

Orton doesnt call the plays. McDaniels not calling dep throws is not Ortons fault. Neither is it his fault that McDaniels didnt call any screen passes to defeat the pass rush. Where were the TE's?

I'm sorry, I just disagree. You cannot blame Orton for this loss, doing so belittles the bigger problems.

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2009, 06:22 PM
Clearly, the Broncos didn't handle anything about the Cutler situation well. McDaniels decision to try and get Matt Cassel?


I love how you clearly ignored the fact that Cutler made it impossible for Denver to handle it well.

So McDaniels thought about trading him for his guy. Big f'n deal.

And Cutler? He's overrated. Don't believe me? Watch him in Chicago this year. I can see why McDaniels didn't want him, and LMAO at us getting 2 first round picks for him.

Northman
11-01-2009, 06:22 PM
Cugel makes some valid points; the OL is showing some weaknesses (#50), Orton has some weaknesses too, where was our down-the-field game against a team with a percieved wek secondary, where were our TE's when the Ravens have been killed all year by receiving TE's, etc...

No lie there. My father in law who is a Ravens fan hates Foxworth yet today we made him look like a pro bowler. :tsk:

weazel
11-01-2009, 06:23 PM
But, what does any of that stuff about Cutler have to do with anything that's happening right now?

because you started out by saying we need a strong armed QB and then went on to say what a good move it was for Shanny to draft him.

Dont play games. You're being a troll

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 06:38 PM
Come on guys.. you can't say that its the "play calling" and then blame McDaniels plan when that is exactly whats been working. Why wouldn't McDaniels call more downfield passing??? Hmmm :confused: Probabl because HE knows his QB then the rest of us do. He KNOWS what the game film they have been studying, what the Raven's had been showing for the game, and what he knows works best with the TALENT he has. TO say that the play-calling was the problem, is just over exaggerating your expertise. No one here knows the game as well ad McDaniel's does..yet you want to blame his play calling. Doesn't hold water.

I know you guys are expecting me to jump all over Orton..and I'm not. I'm just going to say, that those that continue to tell Me that Orton has a strong arm needs to reallly start watching some games. Those that don't think a strong arm is important, need to see that when you NEED your team to get down the field and score, thats where its needed. THe deep crossing routes and deep out, not just the deep...long... ball.

Where were our TEs??? Simple. Pressure was coming from Johnson early and often. Our TEs were staying in to help with the pressure. Thats what happens when you get pressures from the inside.... you have to keep the tackles in to help the inside, and then have to ahve TEs help with the outside rush (or have the TE step bac and help with the inside rush). Lets remember, McDaniels was known not to use the pass-catching TE often, and then drafted a BLOCKING TE.

Its hard to win 7 games in a row. Simple as that. Had to expect a loss, and to be honest, this had to be expected.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 06:39 PM
because you started out by saying we need a strong armed QB and then went on to say what a good move it was for Shanny to draft him.

Dont play games. You're being a troll

Why is it a troll if someone says something critical?

topscribe
11-01-2009, 06:47 PM
Cugel makes some valid points; the OL is showing some weaknesses (#50), Orton has some weaknesses too, where was our down-the-field game against a team with a percieved wek secondary, where were our TE's when the Ravens have been killed all year by receiving TE's, etc...

When the QB does not have time to allow patterns to develop, then the deep
game becomes any QB's "weakness." This really should be obvious.

-----

Tned
11-01-2009, 06:49 PM
Well that didn't work either. They had some success but, teams like the Steelers realized that you could bring pressure off the edges and keep Jake in the pocket and prevent him from rolling out. Then he couldn't beat you because he wasn't much of a pocket passer.


This is the problem with the 'blue print' theory. You used the example of the Steelers. The team that won the SB and beat us in the AFCCG.

Ok, if we follow your premise through, Pitt beat us in the AFCCG, provided a blue print for the rest of the league. Then, before a single game ever used the blue print, we drafted a new QB, brought in an OC (technically, assistant head coach - offense) who completely changed the offense to prevent any team from using this so called 'blue print'. :confused:

Come on. Why don't we wait and see if another team can do what Baltimore did, before we call an end to the season.

T.K.O.
11-01-2009, 06:50 PM
this game is on the whole team ...orton was off...bucky avg, 2 ypc moreno did ok but coughed it up the o-line got manhandled, and the defense looked beat before they hit the field...this was a classic team loss.
the other guys wanted it more....now regroup and keep winning the games you have to win broncos and we will still win the division and beyond.
i hope i dont see a flurry of b.s. "i told you so" posts and threads from people who have been lurking in the shadows waiting for the first chance to pounce on a team they have been wrong about for 4 months....that would make them look even more silly than they already have.
this was a tough team fighting for their lives and they played with more heart
simple as that.
our d will take it very personal that they got outplayed....i hope the offense does the same:salute:

Nomad
11-01-2009, 06:50 PM
Balls. Bullshit. Please...you aren't allowed to come in here in week 8 and pull this crap. We were fine through 6 games. I bet you've been waiting for this all season. I bet you're even glad we lost.

There are few around here today, Slick, gloating!!! I'm sure more will show up during the week!!

EastCoastBronco
11-01-2009, 06:55 PM
There are few around here today, Slick, gloating!!! I'm sure more will show up during the week!!

I already addressed these goddamn trolls a few posts back...Taken care of.

Tned
11-01-2009, 06:56 PM
There are few around here today, Slick, gloating!!! I'm sure more will show up during the week!!

Not saying you did this, but your post was a good time to bring this up.

Considering all of the "when are those guys that were critical of McDaniels and Orton going to crawl out from whatever rocks they are hiding under" posts of the last couple weeks, it was pretty much guaranteed they were going to get loud after the first loss, especially if it was a bad loss.

The gloating posts intended to antagonize those guys if they were lurking are equally bad, IMO.

T.K.O.
11-01-2009, 06:57 PM
There are few around here today, Slick, gloating!!! I'm sure more will show up during the week!!

they should have to write "im sorry i ever doubted the broncos" 100 times on the chalkboard before being allowed to post !:laugh

weazel
11-01-2009, 06:57 PM
Why is it a troll if someone says something critical?

saying something critical is not being a troll...

being silent for 6 games while we are winning and then coming in after the first loss with a prepared statement ripping just the QB that was acquired in the off-season is. he sat and waited for 7 games to use a statement he wrote 8 weeks ago. Hurray for him.

Also, making statements about how the current QB does not measure up to the old one and then playing ignorant when he called out on it is also being a troll.


Hope that helps.

T.K.O.
11-01-2009, 06:59 PM
Not saying you did this, but your post was a good time to bring this up.

Considering all of the "when are those guys that were critical of McDaniels and Orton going to crawl out from whatever rocks they are hiding under" posts of the last couple weeks, it was pretty much guaranteed they were going to get loud after the first loss, especially if it was a bad loss.

The gloating posts intended to antagonize those guys if they were lurking are equally bad, IMO.

oooops....i'm outta here:shocked:

Tned
11-01-2009, 07:01 PM
oooops....i'm outta here:shocked:

All I'm saying is nobody that baited these guys for the last 3-4 weeks, hoping they were lurking and watching the slams and flaming, should be surprised when they seem to 'gloat' over a loss.

topscribe
11-01-2009, 07:03 PM
There are few around here today, Slick, gloating!!! I'm sure more will show up during the week!!

Yes, there is that type, then there is the type that does not comprise bandwagon fans.

The real Broncos fans are not gloating over a loss such as this.

-----

horsepig
11-01-2009, 07:05 PM
Come on guys.. you can't say that its the "play calling" and then blame McDaniels plan when that is exactly whats been working. Why wouldn't McDaniels call more downfield passing??? Hmmm :confused: Probabl because HE knows his QB then the rest of us do. He KNOWS what the game film they have been studying, what the Raven's had been showing for the game, and what he knows works best with the TALENT he has. TO say that the play-calling was the problem, is just over exaggerating your expertise. No one here knows the game as well ad McDaniel's does..yet you want to blame his play calling. Doesn't hold water.

I know you guys are expecting me to jump all over Orton..and I'm not. I'm just going to say, that those that continue to tell Me that Orton has a strong arm needs to reallly start watching some games. Those that don't think a strong arm is important, need to see that when you NEED your team to get down the field and score, thats where its needed. THe deep crossing routes and deep out, not just the deep...long... ball.

Where were our TEs??? Simple. Pressure was coming from Johnson early and often. Our TEs were staying in to help with the pressure. Thats what happens when you get pressures from the inside.... you have to keep the tackles in to help the inside, and then have to ahve TEs help with the outside rush (or have the TE step bac and help with the inside rush). Lets remember, McDaniels was known not to use the pass-catching TE often, and then drafted a BLOCKING TE.

Its hard to win 7 games in a row. Simple as that. Had to expect a loss, and to be honest, this had to be expected.

Geez, welcome back RAV.

T.K.O.
11-01-2009, 07:06 PM
All I'm saying is nobody that baited these guys for the last 3-4 weeks, hoping they were lurking and watching the slams and flaming, should be surprised when they seem to 'gloat' over a loss.

i know i was hoping that even through the loss a 6-1 start would still bring fans together...after all we are all broncos fans first and coach/player fans second.
5 years from now this team will have another 50 different guys,but i will still be wearing orange and blue every week !:salute:
its all good we all see things a little different.
we had to lose once this year and now we have....smooth sailing from here on out;)
favre just threw his 4th TD ....i wonder what he,s doing next year?

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 07:07 PM
This is so stupid. People watched Brady throws bomb TDs to Moss all through 2007 and now they think every NFL team in the league throws 15 deep balls a game.

We don't have a Randy Moss on this team. We have two guys that are good in space with the ball and two guys that run great routes and are good at getting open. And we have a QB that has shown he can make the proper reads and throw the ball with great accuracy up to around 30 yards. McDaniels runs an offense that fits those strengths...as well he should.

The fact is Orton is 10th in the league in YPA. Ahead of Brady, Flacco, Favre, Ryan, Palmer, McNabb, Cutler, Hasselbeck. A lot of that has to do with how great our receivers are after the catch, but thats exacatly the point. We have guys that can make plays after they get the ball, so we try to get them the ball in space so they can make plays. Having a guy that can throw the ball 70 yards downfield wouldn't have done a dang thing to change the outcome of today's game.

I'll take the guy that throws the high percentage throws well all day over the guy that throws the low percentage throws well.

We have 6 wins and 1 loss...but we should expect to see more of what we have seen in the one loss instead of what we have seen in the SIX wins. We have the same players in this game that we have had all season...we just got outplayed today. It happens from time to time in this league. This isn't college football. The Ravens played great football and the Broncos played poor football...thus you have the end result. It's not as if both teams played well and the Ravens beat us because they are more talented.

ikillz0mbies
11-01-2009, 07:08 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that the OP feels as if the Broncos can't improve on today's loss?

We all know that Orton is not a mobile QB. Yes, we all know he does not have a rocket arm.

Orton is the starting QB right now. It is the coaches job to make adjustments and fix the problems that were glaring in today's game.

There is no way that anyone here can expect the Broncos to play PERFECT football this season. Yes, the Broncos do have a great line, the best in the NFL. But there is a team bound to find a flaw and exploit it, thus what the Ravens did today. Now after this loss, all of a sudden it's all "Broncos are done for", "every team on the schedule will do what the Ravens did", blah blah blah.

How about we don't focus on what the other teams are going to do, but rather how the Broncos can make adjustments so a repeat of today's game does not happen again! We all know what Orton can do. I'm sure the rest of the NFL knows what he can do. But it is up to the coaching staff to plan and scheme and use Orton's strengths to beat the opposing defense.

I mean why call for Orton's head after this one loss, which the Broncos were projected to lose. The Ravens are a tough team. The Broncos lost to a team which they were expected to. Come next week, and I'm sure the Broncos are expected to be the underdogs against the defending champs.

I want to see what this coaching staff can do to help prepare this team each and every week. I want to see how the players respond after a loss that was filled with mental mistakes.

It really seems that the ones calling out Orton does not see any improvement throughout the course of the season (to me anyway). But we all knew that the Broncos were going to lose at some point of the season. I just don't see why calling for Orton's head after this one loss makes any sense.

weazel
11-01-2009, 07:09 PM
This is so stupid. People watched Brady throws bomb TDs to Moss all through 2007 and now they think every NFL team in the league throws 15 deep balls a game.

We don't have a Randy Moss on this team. We have two guys that are good in space with the ball and two guys that run great routes and are good at getting open. And we have a QB that has shown he can make the proper reads and throw the ball with great accuracy up to around 30 yards. McDaniels runs an offense that fits those strengths...as well he should.

The fact is Orton is 10th in the league in YPA. Ahead of Brady, Flacco, Favre, Ryan, Palmer, McNabb, Cutler, Hasselbeck. A lot of that has to do with how great our receivers are after the catch, but thats exacatly the point. We have guys that can make plays after they get the ball, so we try to get them the ball in space so they can make plays. Having a guy that can throw the ball 70 yards downfield wouldn't have done a dang thing to change the outcome of today's game.

I'll take the guy that throws the high percentage throws well all day over the guy that throws the low percentage throws well.

We have 6 wins and 1 loss...but we should expect to see more of what we have seen in the one loss instead of what we have seen in the SIX wins. We have the same players in this game that we have had all season...we just got outplayed today. It happens from time to time in this league. This isn't college football. The Ravens played great football and the Broncos played poor football...thus you have the end result. It's not as if both teams played well and the Ravens beat us because they are more talented.

damn, thats a great post! :beer:

should put an end to the thread...

topscribe
11-01-2009, 07:11 PM
We need a QB with a rocket arm.

Will somebody please place a call to Jeff George?

-----

silkamilkamonico
11-01-2009, 07:13 PM
We need a QB with a rocket arm.

Will somebody please place a call to Jeff George?

-----

Don't be ridiculous.

Why sign Jeff George when we could make a trade for JaMarcus Russell when the season's over.

T.K.O.
11-01-2009, 07:15 PM
damn, thats a great post! :beer:

should put an end to the thread...

nah ahh.....it will not......see:lol:

weazel
11-01-2009, 07:15 PM
We need a QB with a rocket arm.

Will somebody please place a call to Jeff George?

-----

I think I found his work number...
Tom's pizza and sub's - 1 453 555 7794

Denver Native (Carol)
11-01-2009, 07:15 PM
I am NOT going to waste my time reading a NEGATIVE thread when the Broncos are 6 - 1. For all of the negative people out there - DID YOU REALLY THINK THE BRONCOS WOULD BE 6 - 0 BEFORE TODAY'S GAME????????

DAMN - CRITICISM FOR A 6 - 1 TEAM :tsk:

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 07:17 PM
Let me also add...Phillip Rivers throws arguably the best deep ball in the league. How did that fare for him when we were beating up his Oline and in his face all night a couple weeks ago? The same way the Ravens beat up our Oline today.

The deep ball wouldnt have been the solution today. Our Oline doing their jobs and the RBs picking up the blitzes would have been the solution today. Period.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 07:19 PM
I am NOT going to waste my time reading a NEGATIVE thread when the Broncos are 6 - 1. For all of the negative people out there - DID YOU REALLY THINK THE BRONCOS WOULD BE 6 - 0 BEFORE TODAY'S GAME????????

DAMN - CRITICISM FOR A 6 - 1 TEAM :tsk:

why Not? why can't we criticise a 6-1 team? Becaus we are 6-1 means there isn't something to observe and note that didn't look good? Why is it that people think we should just have happy happy joy joy posts and thoughts all the time?

YES.. criticism... wow.. how horrible :rolleyes:

weazel
11-01-2009, 07:21 PM
I am currently eating a good sandwich. Pulled pork with cole slaw and red vinegar dipping sauce.

honz
11-01-2009, 07:22 PM
Oh noes! An NFL coaching staff finally figured us out! Luckily the other 6 coaching staffs we went up against were complete idiots! We are doomed now!

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 07:23 PM
why Not? why can't we criticise a 6-1 team? Becaus we are 6-1 means there isn't something to observe and note that didn't look good? Why is it that people think we should just have happy happy joy joy posts and thoughts all the time?

YES.. criticism... wow.. how horrible :rolleyes:

It's not the criticism...it's the "we should just learn to expect these kinds of games with Orton as our QB" type posts.

Nomad
11-01-2009, 07:25 PM
I am currently eating a good sandwich. Pulled pork with cole slaw and red vinegar dipping sauce.

My buddy killed a moose last month(once in a lifetime here in NODAK), he gave me a roast and today I cooked it in the oven for 6 hrs with potatoes and carrots.....it was awesome!!!!

Northman
11-01-2009, 07:26 PM
It's not the criticism...it's the "we should just learn to expect these kinds of games with Orton as our QB" type posts.

Kind of ironic isnt it? When Jay was here it was "he loses if we give up 30 points on defense". When Orton is the Qb its "his arm strength lost the game". :lol:

The double standards never end.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 07:35 PM
Kind of ironic isnt it? When Jay was here it was "he loses if we give up 30 points on defense". When Orton is the Qb its "his arm strength lost the game". :lol:

The double standards never end.

alright.. how about "he loses if the opposing team scores 10 in the second half" :lol: That make you feel better?

I'm not blaming this on Orton at all. It was a team thing. But I honestly DO feel that it shows that our offense is NOT built to score with a team. That we need our defense to shut the other team out if we expect to win. But, I said that yesterday.

I picked against us PURELY because I know its hard to win 7 games in a row....and we were going against a Raw Lewis led defense that got beat the week before their bye that did NOT make them happy. Ray Lewis is the ULTIMATE in motivator. He could motivate a brick wall to move if he wanted to. He motivated his defense to BE a brick wall. I would hire that guy after his retirement purely to be a coach to have his motivating skills ALONE. You just do NOT embarrass that guys team two weeks in a row, especially after a bye.

EastCoastBronco
11-01-2009, 07:50 PM
My buddy killed a moose last month(once in a lifetime here in NODAK), he gave me a roast and today I cooked it in the oven for 6 hrs with potatoes and carrots.....it was awesome!!!!

I had my moose license this year but failed to bag one. Sucks because moose is the best meat you can find...

Nomad
11-01-2009, 07:52 PM
I had my moose license this year but failed to bag one. Sucks because moose is the best meat you can find...

It's great meat better than deer or elk!!

Denver Native (Carol)
11-01-2009, 07:56 PM
It's not the criticism...it's the "we should just learn to expect these kinds of games with Orton as our QB" type posts.


THANK YOU :salute:

Shazam!
11-01-2009, 07:57 PM
The bottom line is the Ravens needed this game desperately or the season was over. It sucks to lose but it's ok. Denver is still on track for a grea tseason and they'll bounce back.

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 08:01 PM
It's not the criticism...it's the "we should just learn to expect these kinds of games with Orton as our QB" type posts.

No. Its the criticisms. If some criticize certain aspects of anyone's game, its the "we are winning"... if they do it after a loss, its the "but we've been winning."

Point is... its as if no player has faults simply because the team has been winning..or at least we are supposed to believe that anyway... or pretend thats the case. Its alright to have criticisms placed on you.. win or lose. Its expected when you play the QB position. Its ok. But the "lets not say anything negative because we are 6-1".. is just silly.

ktrain
11-01-2009, 08:04 PM
This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?

or maybe it is an offensive line that played a really easy schedule last year and never faced a single defense that played wiuth the fire and intensity that Bmore played with?

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 08:05 PM
or maybe it is an offensive line that played a really easy schedule last year and never faced a single defense that played wiuth the fire and intensity that Bmore played with?

The entire season??? I don't think thats likely.. and that still doesn't hold up to what Cugel was saying. For we only took 2 sacks this game. Can't say that our schedule ahs had "brutal" DLs all season long so far.

Watchthemiddle
11-01-2009, 08:07 PM
Your right. This is what we are going to see the rest of the season. Posters who have all the answers and freak out after one loss.

You need to get over the Cutler deal. We are 6-1 without him while the Bears are 4-3 with him.

Cutler is a media driven superstar. Get over it.

We will win many more games as a TEAM without him then we would have with him.

I want you to post next week after the Pitt game. Believe you me, I will bump this one straight to the top.

horsepig
11-01-2009, 08:17 PM
Balls. Bullshit. Please...you aren't allowed to come in here in week 8 and pull this crap. We were fine through 6 games. I bet you've been waiting for this all season. I bet you're even glad we lost.

Geeze, Slick, take a chill pill with some Barona Tequila. Our boys gat beat down today, period. We've come to believe that would not happen this year.

Hats off to the Ravens and their coaches.

I do have a sneaking suspiscion that McD has some aces up his sleeve. He's just sitting in his office going, "I can't believe we haven't had use any of this s$%^t yet! Forget the Ravens, we've got to beat our AFC West foes first.".

Nomad
11-01-2009, 08:21 PM
I do have a sneaking suspiscion that McD has some aces up his sleeve. He's just sitting in his office going, "I can't believe we haven't had use any of this s$%^t yet! Forget the Ravens, we've got to beat our AFC West foes first.".

I wonder how much sleep he'll get this week preparing for the Steelers, probably not much!

Tned
11-01-2009, 08:28 PM
or maybe it is an offensive line that played a really easy schedule last year and never faced a single defense that played wiuth the fire and intensity that Bmore played with?

Regardless of what people think about Cutler as a QB, he was in large part responsible for the low sack numbers our O-line put up. There is no doubt they provided great protection, but most of the time they let someone through, Cutler was able to move -- whether stepping up or getting out of the pocket -- and avoid the sack.


Your right. This is what we are going to see the rest of the season. Posters who have all the answers and freak out after one loss.

You need to get over the Cutler deal. We are 6-1 without him while the Bears are 4-3 with him.

Cutler is a media driven superstar. Get over it.

We will win many more games as a TEAM without him then we would have with him.

I want you to post next week after the Pitt game. Believe you me, I will bump this one straight to the top.

Come on WTM, I have to pull the hypocrite card on this one. In 2 1/2 years, you neve got over Plummer being benched in favor of Cutler, so I'm not sure you should be pulling the "Get over it. You need to get over the Cutler deal." card.

LoyalSoldier
11-01-2009, 08:31 PM
This is so stupid. People watched Brady throws bomb TDs to Moss all through 2007 and now they think every NFL team in the league throws 15 deep balls a game.

We don't have a Randy Moss on this team. We have two guys that are good in space with the ball and two guys that run great routes and are good at getting open. And we have a QB that has shown he can make the proper reads and throw the ball with great accuracy up to around 30 yards. McDaniels runs an offense that fits those strengths...as well he should.

The fact is Orton is 10th in the league in YPA. Ahead of Brady, Flacco, Favre, Ryan, Palmer, McNabb, Cutler, Hasselbeck. A lot of that has to do with how great our receivers are after the catch, but thats exacatly the point. We have guys that can make plays after they get the ball, so we try to get them the ball in space so they can make plays. Having a guy that can throw the ball 70 yards downfield wouldn't have done a dang thing to change the outcome of today's game.

I'll take the guy that throws the high percentage throws well all day over the guy that throws the low percentage throws well.

We have 6 wins and 1 loss...but we should expect to see more of what we have seen in the one loss instead of what we have seen in the SIX wins. We have the same players in this game that we have had all season...we just got outplayed today. It happens from time to time in this league. This isn't college football. The Ravens played great football and the Broncos played poor football...thus you have the end result. It's not as if both teams played well and the Ravens beat us because they are more talented.

The problem is (as we saw today) the lack of at least a decent deep game allows the defense to cheat and as we saw today the WRs don't get all those yards after catch because the defense crowds the short game.

You don't need 80 yard TD passes, but you do need 20, 30, or 40 yard passes to keep the defense thinking deep. Orton had a high completion percentage today, but we got no yards because they were all short passes. We need to do a better job of completing some longer passes.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 08:33 PM
No. Its the criticisms. If some criticize certain aspects of anyone's game, its the "we are winning"... if they do it after a loss, its the "but we've been winning."

Point is... its as if no player has faults simply because the team has been winning..or at least we are supposed to believe that anyway... or pretend thats the case. Its alright to have criticisms placed on you.. win or lose. Its expected when you play the QB position. Its ok. But the "lets not say anything negative because we are 6-1".. is just silly.


It's also silly to look at a team that has played well in 6 wins and played poorly in 1 loss and start a thread suggesting that we better get used to the way this team has played in one of six games because thats how it's going to be for the rest of the season. This game was no more an indicator of the state of this team than the previous six games were.

Every team has aspects that they can improve upon - the point is you have to look at the big picture when evaluating this team. We did some things very terribly today, it doesn't make this a terrible team. This same team did some great things against some very good teams this season.

This is not an attack of your point of view, but you cant expect people to accept the fact that this one game epitomises the 2009 Denver Broncos which is what the OP seems to be suggesting.

Lonestar
11-01-2009, 08:34 PM
blah, blah, blah..

Shazam!
11-01-2009, 08:35 PM
The doom and gloom after an undefeated Sept-Oct to me is kind of disgusting.

There are teams in full tailspins or meltdowns.

You should wish the Broncos aren't like the NYG or NYJ. Fans here really want to kill themselves after today.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 08:36 PM
The problem is (as we saw today) the lack of at least a decent deep game allows the defense to cheat and as we saw today the WRs don't get all those yards after catch because the defense crowds the short game.

You don't need 80 yard TD passes, but you do need 20, 30, or 40 yard passes to keep the defense thinking deep. Orton had a high completion percentage today, but we got no yards because they were all short passes. We need to do a better job of completing some longer passes.

You can't complete long passes when your QB has no time to let the routes develop. As I said, refer back to the San Diego game. They kept running deep routes, but we kept getting to Rivers before they could complete them. The only way to beat a blitz is to pick it up. You pick up the blitz and you have single coverage all over the field with no help over the top. WR's cant run 30 or 40 yards in 2 seconds.

TXBRONC
11-01-2009, 08:36 PM
I had my moose license this year but failed to bag one. Sucks because moose is the best meat you can find...

Elk is better in my opinion. :D

gobroncsnv
11-01-2009, 08:41 PM
Well, maybe we could get Cutler back... We wouldn't have had to waive Kern because there are ways besides punting where the other team gets the ball back. I much prefer taking a sack to interceptions.

Sorry, not buying in here. I had no illusions of Denver going undefeated this year, so I think I'll stay on the bandwagon at least anOTHER week. I don't think our QB issues are nearly as significant as our guard issues.

Tned
11-01-2009, 08:49 PM
This game was lost in the one area the Broncos had previously been beyond dominant. 3rd down conversions.

Baltimore was 11 for 18 in the game on 3rd down and 6 or 8 in the second half on 3rd downs.

The Broncos hadn't allowed a 3rd down conversion in the second half of the previous 4 ames. While that was an impossible pace to keep up, allowing an 80% conversion rate in the second half and 61% for the game, just won't cut it.

Also, I think Flacco completed something like his final 14 passes in a row or something like that.
5 10
6 8

weazel
11-01-2009, 08:58 PM
My buddy killed a moose last month(once in a lifetime here in NODAK), he gave me a roast and today I cooked it in the oven for 6 hrs with potatoes and carrots.....it was awesome!!!!

should have smoked that thing over some oak or hickory....

LoyalSoldier
11-01-2009, 09:00 PM
You can't complete long passes when your QB has no time to let the routes develop. As I said, refer back to the San Diego game. They kept running deep routes, but we kept getting to Rivers before they could complete them. The only way to beat a blitz is to pick it up. You pick up the blitz and you have single coverage all over the field with no help over the top. WR's cant run 30 or 40 yards in 2 seconds.

Ok and where did I say Orton's arm was at fault? I don't give a damn why we can't do it only the fact we can't do it. Today it was the line's struggling that hurt us, but none the less the Ravens were cheating and cheating hard today and this problem can come back to bite us if we don't get it fixed.

weazel
11-01-2009, 09:04 PM
The doom and gloom after an undefeated Sept-Oct to me is kind of disgusting.

There are teams in full tailspins or meltdowns.

You should wish the Broncos aren't like the NYG or NYJ. Fans here really want to kill themselves after today.

I hope noone stops them

CrazyHorse
11-01-2009, 09:09 PM
Orton is capable of throwing the ball 75 yards.

LRtagger
11-01-2009, 09:10 PM
Ok and where did I say Orton's arm was at fault? I don't give a damn why we can't do it only the fact we can't do it. Today it was the line's struggling that hurt us, but none the less the Ravens were cheating and cheating hard today and this problem can come back to bite us if we don't get it fixed.

What? Where did I say anything about Orton's arm in that post you quoted. I said the problem was our blockers didnt pick up the blitz. Other people were saying Orton's inability to throw the ball downfield is the reason we lost.

You said the solution to today's problem was to stretch the field, but it's kind of hard to stretch the field when the QB has only 2 seconds to throw the ball. I used the reference to the SD game to indicate that even with the best deep ball thrower in the league this year, it's impossible to throw the deep ball when the pocket breaks down so quickly.

Baltimore was able to cheat up because we weren't picking up the blitz. Orton isn't exactly the most mobile QB, so they didnt really have to worry about him scrambling and making a big throw downfield. When you have a pure pocket passer like Orton you need to keep him protected. Typically you break up the blitz with screens, but our lineman were slow to get off blocks and the Ravens blew up the screens all day.

They did a great job and we did a terrible job. Put those two together and you get a game like today's.

weazel
11-01-2009, 09:11 PM
Orton is capable of throwing the ball 75 yards.

yup, but will it land where he wants it to? just playing devil's advocate, here.

ursamajor
11-01-2009, 09:18 PM
Wow, just wow. No QB in history is above having bad games. Not Montana, not Marino, not Favre, not Brady, not Manning. Not any that has played any substantial time at any substantial level. But Orton is supposed to be perfect every game?

And I thought the Cutler haters were bad.

Shyt happens. I dunno, whatever.

CrazyHorse
11-01-2009, 09:19 PM
yup, but will it land where he wants it to? just playing devil's advocate, here.

Probably not. Lol.

ursamajor
11-01-2009, 09:20 PM
Kyle Orton, like Brian Griese doesn't have the arm strength to throw deep passes downfield. He's a good pocket passer on short-to-medium range passes, especially if teams give him time to throw. He can throw deep if he can take a big step up and get some momentum into his throw. But, he doesn't have a great arm, so if he gets pressure up the middle at all, he has trouble. If he has to unload in a hurry, he can't throw deep. He's not particularly good throwing on the run when he can't get his feet squared and get his momentum into the throw.

What teams can be expected to do is pack 8 defenders into the box to clog the short passing lanes, and put pressure in Orton's face and then dare him to throw deep. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for other teams to successfully use this strategy.

We saw this in 2000-2002. Teams figured out that Griese couldn't beat them deep with a deep passing game. And he wasn't mobile enough to roll out and buy time and not accurate throwing off the run.

He -- like Orton was deadly accurate if you gave him enough time and opportunity to hit the open WR over the short middle. He, like Orton was a rhythm passer. If you let him get into a rhythm, he's going to burn you.

But Griese's limitations are why Shanahan went to Jake Plummer. The idea was that Jake was more athletic and mobile and could roll out and throw off the run, buying time for the WRs to get open.

Well that didn't work either. They had some success but, teams like the Steelers realized that you could bring pressure off the edges and keep Jake in the pocket and prevent him from rolling out. Then he couldn't beat you because he wasn't much of a pocket passer.

In 2006 Shanahan, tiring of this decided to draft Jay Cutler. Cutler could stretch the field and keep the defense honest. Teams couldn't crowd the line with 7 or 8 men and blitz him consistently, because he could beat the blitz by throwing downfield. It was too dangerous -- especially when Brandon Marshall became such a good WR threat.

Now with Orton we're back to square one.

The Ravens put on a clinic on how to beat the Broncos and Kyle Orton. Put 8 men in the box. Dare him to throw deep. Get pressure in his face and try and force him to move around in the pocket.

McDaniels is going to have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what he can do to stop teams from bringing that kind of pressure. His offensive line struggled all day.

And remember that that OL was one of the best in the NFL last season. Cutler was only sacked 11 times all year. That's outstanding.

Of course Orton has been sacked 11 times in 7 games and is on pace to be sacked 25 times this year. That's rather a lot when you have one of the best OLs in football!

It points out that Orton is NOT a very mobile QB and can't make plays with his feet. That's not a fatal weakness. Peyton Manning isn't a threat to run either. But, the Colts OL has been built to protect Manning and he has the arm and more importantly, the skill to "sniff out the blitz" as the announcers said today -- and then get the ball accurately to the open WR.

Teams have essentially given up on the idea of blitzing Manning to beat him -- he makes them pay too often (117 passer rating when he's blitzed).

It's not fair to Orton to compare him unfavorably with Manning, but the Broncos are going to either figure out some way to keep defenders out of Orton's face and give him time to throw -- which will be VERY difficult when he's such an immobile target -- or else do what Shanny did and draft a franchise QB with a live arm who can put the fear of god into defenses with his threat to throw deep.

Thus, keeping them honest and preventing them from doing what the Ravens did to Orton today.

At least you guys didn't get blown out by the Bengals. AAAARRRRRRGGGGG The freaking Bengals :tsk:

GEM
11-01-2009, 09:44 PM
Let's erase the previous 6 games and zero in on this one. :rolleyes:

Denver Native (Carol)
11-01-2009, 09:45 PM
Let's erase the previous 6 games and zero in on this one. :rolleyes:


:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:

Ravage!!!
11-01-2009, 09:48 PM
well.. past games don't win us this one, or the next, or the next. Its always about what a team is doing NOW. Thats the same way you look at if if you start off Oh-fer... you only look at how your team goes from THIS game forward.

Since this is the latest game played, and the toughest team we've played this year... I would say it is something to look at and ignore the past purely because the past games do NOT effect this game whatsoever. Just as this game won't effect next week's game.

But we can't keep talking about last week, or week two, or week three. We only have the latest game to talk about.

Italianmobstr7
11-01-2009, 10:00 PM
well.. past games don't win us this one, or the next, or the next. Its always about what a team is doing NOW. Thats the same way you look at if if you start off Oh-fer... you only look at how your team goes from THIS game forward.

Since this is the latest game played, and the toughest team we've played this year... I would say it is something to look at and ignore the past purely because the past games do NOT effect this game whatsoever. Just as this game won't effect next week's game.

But we can't keep talking about last week, or week two, or week three. We only have the latest game to talk about.

You think the Ravens are tougher than the Patriots? It was a bad game in a tough environment. Hopefully they bounce back. Now this team knows why to expect against Pitt next week.

Poet
11-01-2009, 10:40 PM
Sometimes threads make my soul hurt.

TXBRONC
11-01-2009, 10:46 PM
yup, but will it land where he wants it to? just playing devil's advocate, here.

That's fine and dandy but if Orton can throw it 75 yards but if he can't hit the target then its kind of useless.

weazel
11-01-2009, 10:49 PM
That's fine and dandy but if Orton can throw it 75 yards but if he can't hit the target then its kind of useless.

ummmm, isn't that what I was saying?

TXBRONC
11-01-2009, 10:56 PM
ummmm, isn't that what I was saying?

I was agreeing with you.

Timmy!
11-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Kyle Orton, like Brian Griese doesn't have the arm strength to throw deep passes downfield. He's a good pocket passer on short-to-medium range passes, especially if teams give him time to throw. He can throw deep if he can take a big step up and get some momentum into his throw. But, he doesn't have a great arm, so if he gets pressure up the middle at all, he has trouble. If he has to unload in a hurry, he can't throw deep. He's not particularly good throwing on the run when he can't get his feet squared and get his momentum into the throw.

What teams can be expected to do is pack 8 defenders into the box to clog the short passing lanes, and put pressure in Orton's face and then dare him to throw deep. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for other teams to successfully use this strategy.

We saw this in 2000-2002. Teams figured out that Griese couldn't beat them deep with a deep passing game. And he wasn't mobile enough to roll out and buy time and not accurate throwing off the run.

He -- like Orton was deadly accurate if you gave him enough time and opportunity to hit the open WR over the short middle. He, like Orton was a rhythm passer. If you let him get into a rhythm, he's going to burn you.

But Griese's limitations are why Shanahan went to Jake Plummer. The idea was that Jake was more athletic and mobile and could roll out and throw off the run, buying time for the WRs to get open.

Well that didn't work either. They had some success but, teams like the Steelers realized that you could bring pressure off the edges and keep Jake in the pocket and prevent him from rolling out. Then he couldn't beat you because he wasn't much of a pocket passer.

In 2006 Shanahan, tiring of this decided to draft Jay Cutler. Cutler could stretch the field and keep the defense honest. Teams couldn't crowd the line with 7 or 8 men and blitz him consistently, because he could beat the blitz by throwing downfield. It was too dangerous -- especially when Brandon Marshall became such a good WR threat.

Now with Orton we're back to square one.

The Ravens put on a clinic on how to beat the Broncos and Kyle Orton. Put 8 men in the box. Dare him to throw deep. Get pressure in his face and try and force him to move around in the pocket.

McDaniels is going to have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what he can do to stop teams from bringing that kind of pressure. His offensive line struggled all day.

And remember that that OL was one of the best in the NFL last season. Cutler was only sacked 11 times all year. That's outstanding.

Of course Orton has been sacked 11 times in 7 games and is on pace to be sacked 25 times this year. That's rather a lot when you have one of the best OLs in football!

It points out that Orton is NOT a very mobile QB and can't make plays with his feet. That's not a fatal weakness. Peyton Manning isn't a threat to run either. But, the Colts OL has been built to protect Manning and he has the arm and more importantly, the skill to "sniff out the blitz" as the announcers said today -- and then get the ball accurately to the open WR.

Teams have essentially given up on the idea of blitzing Manning to beat him -- he makes them pay too often (117 passer rating when he's blitzed).

It's not fair to Orton to compare him unfavorably with Manning, but the Broncos are going to either figure out some way to keep defenders out of Orton's face and give him time to throw -- which will be VERY difficult when he's such an immobile target -- or else do what Shanny did and draft a franchise QB with a live arm who can put the fear of god into defenses with his threat to throw deep.

Thus, keeping them honest and preventing them from doing what the Ravens did to Orton today.


7 weeks ago this post was named "Broncossuck.doc" and was sitting on your desktop. Congrats on finally putting it to use. :rolleyes:

LoyalSoldier
11-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Let's erase the previous 6 games and zero in on this one. :rolleyes:

If the next 9 games are like the last 6 then we are in good shape.

If the next 9 games are like this one then we are in trouble.

For our sake I hope the earlier is true.

Shazam!
11-01-2009, 11:16 PM
I can't believe all the negativity by some. It's sickening. They act like this team is the Titans, Browns, 'Skins, Rams, etc. This is very likely a playoff team and they still aren't happy about it.

Shazam!
11-01-2009, 11:17 PM
McDaniels should be fired after today that ****.

Lonestar
11-01-2009, 11:19 PM
Y'all act like we did not play a quality team today.. a 4-3 team that lost those three games by like a total of 15 points..

the Ravens have been one of the gold standards on defense for many years..

so it is a surprise to some that they were butt hurt by their record and played out of their minds today..

on any given day anyone can win..

we have problems with the following IMHO..

CB opposite Bailey.. he got beat 4-5 times today not badly but they completed passes on him that in weeks past he knocked away..

Hamilton must be renting pocket space from Kyle as he was back with him all day today.. when they had Clady help out with him then it was OK.. not good but OK..

our punter sucks worse than KERN.. we lost the field position battle all day, mostly on mini punts..

I only saw it twice but Marshall did not run good routes today over the middle.. ONE time he could have made a good catch, but I think he saw #52 getting ready to clock him.. did not make a great effort to make that catch.. and then there was one other time instead of a crisp cut it was more of a wide arc..

OUR D played really well one a bunch of plays as they stopped RB's behind the LOS 8-10 times but then allowed big runs on others..

Flaco is a hell of a QB, not easy to bring down and can gun it on the run.. the mini RB Rice is a great player also.. and running behind gaither well he is special also..

Doom was not to bee seen today, but Davis was in the back field alot.. ayers seemed to play well in 4-5 plays I noticed him..

Moreno well he needs to carry a football around the facility till he learns to take care of the ball..

Orton I thought overall played a decent game considering he had black and purple in his face all day..

I do not remember Scheffler in the game at all..


now this is all from a one time look see as my TIVO does not work on local stations.. let hope they replay this during the week..


AGAIN as I said in another thread crap happens and I believe that much of the issue today will get addressed by years end.. we have come a long way considering where we started in January..

Shazam!
11-01-2009, 11:35 PM
Broncos were hot after a two week period of hearing how great they were.

Ravens desperately needed a win.

Hopefully this loss will put a sour taste in their mouths and they'll be inspired for Pitt on MNF at home.

KCL
11-01-2009, 11:48 PM
The Giants lost to the Eagles...The Eagles lost to the Raiders...you all have only lost one game and it was to IMO a good team..does this make some of you who are feeling pissed about the game feel better? If that doesn't do it...you all could be having a season like the Chiefs are having...:tsk: :lol:

skycoyote
11-01-2009, 11:58 PM
They way I see it, if we win all our home games and lose the road games that should be enough to win the division, or lose one home game and win one on the road etc. You get the picture. I too was disappointed with the loss today. Lets just hope we don't get blown out and MNF.

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 12:02 AM
The Giants lost to the Eagles...The Eagles lost to the Raiders...you all have only lost one game and it was to IMO a good team..does this make some of you who are feeling pissed about the game feel better? If that doesn't do it...you all could be having a season like the Chiefs are having...:tsk: :lol:

Miami @ Jets. Worst loss of the day.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:16 AM
well.. past games don't win us this one, or the next, or the next. Its always about what a team is doing NOW. Thats the same way you look at if if you start off Oh-fer... you only look at how your team goes from THIS game forward.

Since this is the latest game played, and the toughest team we've played this year... I would say it is something to look at and ignore the past purely because the past games do NOT effect this game whatsoever. Just as this game won't effect next week's game.

But we can't keep talking about last week, or week two, or week three. We only have the latest game to talk about.

Toughest game we've played all year? Really? Why, because we lost? Or because the team we played was 3-3 and completely desperate? Let's just forget going into the friggen home of the team who has completely dismantled us 5 times in the past 3 years. Let's just forget beating the biggest oline and dline in the business (Dallas), let's just forget beating Tom Brady, Belichick and the Pansies. Let's just forget all about that and say this is the toughest game. :rolleyes: We had a bad game. ONE bad game out of six does not define a season. If we continue the down turn for 3 more weeks, yea...then you can come in here telling us I told you so, you can come in saying how bad we are. Right now....we're better than what any of us, ANY OF US, expected.

So save telling us how one bad game out of SEVEN defines this season. Let's NOT forget that we've defined ourselves as THE best defense on the field OVER TIME, not OVER ONE GAME.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:19 AM
That's fine and dandy but if Orton can throw it 75 yards but if he can't hit the target then its kind of useless.

It also helps if the target can catch the ball. Marshall dropped a ball, Marshall waited for a ball to come to him rather than seeing Foxworth ready to make a play on his ball. So let's lay this loss out where it belongs....THE WHOLE TEAM looked bad, not just Orton. Clady had an unusually rough game, the rest of the OLine couldn't block in either rushing or passing, they couldn't open holes. Special Teams had major issues. SO again...place it where it belongs 53 shoulders, not just 1.

Poet
11-02-2009, 12:19 AM
Toughest game we've played all year? Really? Why, because we lost? Or because the team we played was 3-3 and completely desperate? Let's just forget going into the friggen home of the team who has completely dismantled us 5 times in the past 3 years. Let's just forget beating the biggest oline and dline in the business (Dallas), let's just forget beating Tom Brady, Belichick and the Pansies. Let's just forget all about that and say this is the toughest game. :rolleyes: We had a bad game. ONE bad game out of six does not define a season. If we continue the down turn for 3 more weeks, yea...then you can come in here telling us I told you so, you can come in saying how bad we are. Right now....we're better than what any of us, ANY OF US, expected.

So save telling us how one bad game out of SEVEN defines this season. Let's NOT forget that we've defined ourselves as THE best defense on the field OVER TIME, not OVER ONE GAME.
That Cincinnati team really sucks too. ;)

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:20 AM
If the next 9 games are like the last 6 then we are in good shape.

If the next 9 games are like this one then we are in trouble.

For our sake I hope the earlier is true.

So you put more likelihood on one game, when we have a history of 7 games this season? :confused: This bad game looks more like the unlikely.

LoyalSoldier
11-02-2009, 12:23 AM
So you put more likelihood on one game, when we have a history of 7 games this season? :confused: This bad game looks more like the unlikely.
Being a Broncos fan I you should know better than anyone else how the past games are no prediction of the future.

How many times have the Broncos started the season red hot only to go through a bad stretch? Last year history would have said we could have won one of the last 3 games, but we didn't.

The fact is all the last 7 games tells us is we can't finish any worse than 6-10 or any better than 15-1.

Now do I believe we will fall apart? No. I am just saying I hope we continue to be the team we saw in the first 6 games.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:23 AM
That Cincinnati team really sucks too. ;)

Oh but Cincy doesn't rate up to some of these guys expectations....even though they are pitching one of the best defenses in the league and still have a phenom qb and the leading rusher in the league.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:24 AM
Being a Broncos fan I you should know better than anyone else how the past games are no prediction of the future.

How many times have the Broncos started the season red hot only to go through a bad stretch? Last year history would have said we could have won one of the last 3 games, but we didn't.

The fact is all the last 7 games tells us is we can't finish any worse than 6-10 or any better than 15-1.

Now do I believe we will fall apart? No. I am just saying I hope we continue to be the team we saw in the first 6 games.

This isn't the same team, isn't the same players, isn't the same coaches so no...I can't compare them to past teams.

Poet
11-02-2009, 12:24 AM
Oh but Cincy doesn't rate up to some of these guys expectations....even though they are pitching one of the best defenses in the league and still have a phenom qb and the leading rusher in the league.

Yeah, but clearly we are garbage. I mean, we suck so bad that YOU guys barely beat us. It's ok GEM, all fanbases have them, and you know what I'm talking about. You can only do so much. Trust me, I've learned that over the years.

LoyalSoldier
11-02-2009, 12:29 AM
This isn't the same team, isn't the same players, isn't the same coaches so no...I can't compare them to past teams.

You miss the point completely. Same team or not doesn't mean jack. Even if the Broncos cut all of their players and coaching staff then move to London it wouldn't change my point.

Teams can change completely in the middle of the season and year to year. A good team at the start of the season may not be so great later on and a team that is bad at the start of the season might get hot. This isn't exclusive to any one team.

The past is no prediction of the future.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:29 AM
Yeah, but clearly we are garbage. I mean, we suck so bad that YOU guys barely beat us. It's ok GEM, all fanbases have them, and you know what I'm talking about. You can only do so much. Trust me, I've learned that over the years.

Oh believe me I know...beating the Raiders is huge for us as over the last couple years, they've beaten us. Beating any team in the NFL is huge. I take the Bengals seriously, they do have players that have shown to be good to great over a period of time, not just a period of a game. I just knew what some of these guys would say...it's the Bengals.

It doesn't matter if we went 15-1 this season, some would still bitch about that 1 game we lost.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:31 AM
You miss the point completely. Same team or not doesn't mean jack. Even if the Broncos cut all of their players and coaching staff then move to London it wouldn't change my point.

Teams can change completely in the middle of the season and year to year. This isn't exclusive to any one team.

The past is no prediction of the future.

I didn't miss the point completely. You said to remember that this team has started fast and down the stretch, blah, blah, blah. That WASN'T this team. That was Shanahan's team and most of those players are in the CFL, UFL and sitting on their couches.

No one here has a crystal ball, so let's not belittle what they have done for 6 straight weeks because they went into a desperate environment and lost.

sneakers
11-02-2009, 12:32 AM
Being a Broncos fan I you should know better than anyone else how the past games are no prediction of the future.

How many times have the Broncos started the season red hot only to go through a bad stretch? Last year history would have said we could have won one of the last 3 games, but we didn't.

The fact is all the last 7 games tells us is we can't finish any worse than 6-10 or any better than 15-1.

Now do I believe we will fall apart? No. I am just saying I hope we continue to be the team we saw in the first 6 games.

We could finish 6-1-9!!

Poet
11-02-2009, 12:33 AM
Oh believe me I know...beating the Raiders is huge for us as over the last couple years, they've beaten us. Beating any team in the NFL is huge. I take the Bengals seriously, they do have players that have shown to be good to great over a period of time, not just a period of a game. I just knew what some of these guys would say...it's the Bengals.

It doesn't matter if we went 15-1 this season, some would still bitch about that 1 game we lost.

Fans are fickle beasts. Some people here are poised to leap on McDaniels or Orton or whatever. Last year your fans (as mine) would have loved to limp into the playoffs. This year it looks like you're a divisional lock but yet you still have the hardcore haters.

I'm always for deep analysis and looking ahead, but as a fan there comes a point where you have to just roll with it. My team's only had one victory that wasn't ugly but I can tell you a last minute grimy win is way better than any loss.

I would also like to take this time to say **** Brandon Stokely. :shocked:

LoyalSoldier
11-02-2009, 12:34 AM
I didn't miss the point completely. You said to remember that this team has started fast and down the stretch, blah, blah, blah. That WASN'T this team. That was Shanahan's team and most of those players are in the CFL, UFL and sitting on their couches.

No one here has a crystal ball, so let's not belittle what they have done for 6 straight weeks because they went into a desperate environment and lost.

Yes you did miss the point because you took my specific example as my point instead of getting the overall picture. The Broncos teams of the past have been perfect examples of how the past can not predict the future.

I am not belittling what they have done at all. The first 6 weeks we have played some good football. I am just saying I am hoping the next 9 games are more like our first 6.

GEM
11-02-2009, 12:39 AM
Yes you did miss the point because you took my specific example as my point instead of getting the overall picture. The Broncos teams of the past have been perfect examples of how the past can not predict the future.

I am not belittling what they have done at all. The first 6 weeks we have played some good football. I am just saying I am hoping the next 9 games are more like our first 6.

You're right....I just can't stand the negativity being based on 1 game....especially from posters who had all but disappeared until this loss.

We can't use this one game to predict the future either.

Either way, I think we're both on the same page. We want the best for the Broncos,

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 01:07 AM
I don't think Baltimore necessarily wanted it more, or that they protected their QB better because I don't believe that at all (Flacco did a good job escaping)... Baltimore did exactly what any opposing team should do which is shutdown the screens and short passes. I've been totally stumped as to why Baltimore is the first team to even try to focus on that area but it's hard to argue that it didn't reveal some weaknesses.

GEM
11-02-2009, 01:45 AM
why Not? why can't we criticise a 6-1 team? Becaus we are 6-1 means there isn't something to observe and note that didn't look good? Why is it that people think we should just have happy happy joy joy posts and thoughts all the time?

YES.. criticism... wow.. how horrible :rolleyes:

And where were you the past 6 weeks we were 6-0? All the sudden a loss and here you are. Hmmmm.

Timmy!
11-02-2009, 01:56 AM
Gem, you need to see the big picture here. All hope is gone.

The Broncos are 6-1. They have the 2nd best record in the AFC, and 4th best in the NFL. They are, obviously, a terrible team and have no chance of winning 7 games this year. Those 1st 6 weeks were all flukes. Every single one of them. It's impossible for this team to play any better than they did today. Everybody knows the Ravens are horrible. Wake me up in April for the draft. :heh:

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 02:03 AM
Gem, you need to see the big picture here. All hope is gone.

The Broncos are 6-1. They have the 2nd best record in the AFC, and 4th best in the NFL. They are, obviously, a terrible team and have no chance of winning 7 games this year. Those 1st 6 weeks were all flukes. Every single one of them. It's impossible for this team to play any better than they did today. Everybody knows the Ravens are horrible. Wake me up in April for the draft. :heh:

The Broncos are the worst winning team in the League.

Wins over Cincinatti, Dallas, New England and SD were all aberrations.

Denver should've lost to Cleveland and Oakland too, they're so terrible.

Kyle Orton should be a UFL QB or working at a Nathan's.

McDaniels should be fired for creating such a pathetic team with no chance in January.

The Broncos shouldn't even show up next Monday and hand the Steelers the win.

In fact, they should forfeit every game and think about 2010 because 2009 is over.

It isn't like the Rams, Redskins, Browns, Buccaneers, Raiders, Chiefs, Titans, Bills, Lions, Panthers, Jags, Seahawks or Niners would rather be in a position like those terrible Broncos are.

The Broncos suffered their first loss of the 2009 season in November. I am ashamed to be a Broncos fan today. I will burn all my Broncos stuff in embarassment.

The sky is falling! NOOOOooooooo!

GEM
11-02-2009, 02:20 AM
Seems that some have just been waiting for this moment for a big grand entrance of HAHAHA's and I told you so's. I put those right up there with a Titan fan going on their board with a Yea, we're goin to the SB after today's win.

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 02:30 AM
Seems that some have just been waiting for this moment for a big grand entrance of HAHAHA's and I told you so's. I put those right up there with a Titan fan going on their board with a Yea, we're goin to the SB after today's win.

At least Tennessee fans can be positive. There is possibly a future for their young QB. The Broncos have nothing to be positive about. Their season is over.

honz
11-02-2009, 02:36 AM
You're right....I just can't stand the negativity being based on 1 game....especially from posters who had all but disappeared until this loss.

We can't use this one game to predict the future either.

Either way, I think we're both on the same page. We want the best for the Broncos,

Yeah, I love seeing certain posters I haven't seen around for a while pop their heads in as soon as we lose. No need to name any names...they know who they are!

frenchfan
11-02-2009, 03:06 AM
Well... I was expecting a loss against Ravens or against Steelers...

I prefer to lose against Ravens... Now, I want to see how our team will rebound...

We had a bad game... But give credit to one of the best (if not the best) D in the NFL. And it seems we didn't do very well at Baltimore (our record is pretty bad there).
And hell, it's not like if we were defeated by Raiders like Eagles were :rolleyes: ...
For the 1st time this season we couldn't find answers to what Ravens gave us...

Yeah, some teams will look at what Ravens did to us for sure... But, the question is : will they be able to run it like Ravens did? Not so sure...

At the beginning of the season, who wouldn't have signed to be 6-1 ?
Many people predicted us to be 2-5 at this time...
SO, blame Orton for his lack of mobility (damn, I'm mad we didn't take a shot on Vick :tsk: :laugh: ), his weak arm (I don't know how you can throw deep when you have this pressure)... blame McD for his poor play-calling (he sucked so bad the 6 previous game)... Blame our OL to be so awful... our last year's D to be back...

Pfff... 6 wins against 1 loss and you all want to change everything and blame everyone???

Kyle at least didn't throw a pick under this pressure...

Now, what we have to do is to understand why we lost and how to correct that... In other words : learn from this loss...
I'm sure our team will show more fire the next game... I don't think it will be a cool week at Dove Valley... And I'm sure our staff will work harder to find answers...

See you next week :salute:

Go Broncos... :defense:

BCJ
11-02-2009, 03:30 AM
Not every team is the Ravens so no I wont expect this all season. We didnt adjust. Not just in offense but defense too. Game sucked in all three parts of the game. That is sometimes how it goes. We are 6 and 1 after 7 weeks. We have seen Orton drive 90 yards plus against a good Pats team. He has his limits but I dont blame this game entirely on him. There was blame to go around on this one. We got beat by the better team. What happened today doesnt mean it will happen vs Steelers. Two different teams. Two different scenarios. Home cooking will help the team also.

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 03:43 AM
i not even going to bother reading all the attacks after i read the first page directed at cugel becasue quite simply he pointed out a obvious defect we are facing and you all call him out like he said its the end of the world.....not once did he say we are doomed or screwed like you all portray, he quite simply elaborated to the fact we have to find a way to protect orton better or get a more mobile Qb, its quite simple really....

our entire Inetrior OL has struggled this year, and yesetrday a clinic was put on them i have no problems with our tackles right now, but our interior OL can not protect against the blitz.

i would imagine that part of this has to do with MCD wanting to run a more man oriented scheme with bigger guards and a center. that change is probally a reason for some of the inconsitency, but it clear if you stack the box against the broncos the offense we run struggles.....

1 game or not we got blasted yesterday......there are imperfections on this team plain and simple.....im sure the playoffs is still a virtual lock, but as cugel stated MCD needs to come up with a way to protect orton better or the blueprint clinic the ravens put on us yesterday will be echoed by the pitts, indys, phillys, giants


we are by no means doomed or even in serious trouble, but its clear that the issues cugel brought up about orton are legit and not unfounded....he does struggle with the blitz in his face and thats why baltimore brought it the way they did....there is a blueprint now on getting to orton and its up to the coaching staff to protect orton....

Superchop 7
11-02-2009, 03:49 AM
Look Cug, I'm with you on your QB opinion, Flacco would have done a better job in Orange and Blue than Orton, we mostly agree that Orton is good but not elite.

BUT

I knew, after 10 plays that it just wasn't our day.

The true difference was INTENSITY.

Baltimore played lights out, we didn't.

They will rebound.

Eventually, we will groom a stud QB.

Life goes on.....

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 03:58 AM
i lied i finally read the first 6 pages and i really am starting to wonder if anyone actually read what cugel posted.....seriously....many posters are assuming quite a bit from a really basic post about how baltimore beat us.....in fact half your attacks state or portary things that werent even stated or said by cugel....

i expected more here.......*dissapointed*..............


seems assumptions without basis are the new FAD

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:51 AM
Sometimes threads make my soul hurt.

Believe it or not people like to cry for the sake of crying. They are never happy with anything Bronco related and fail to see anything good in it.

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:59 AM
I don't think Baltimore necessarily wanted it more, or that they protected their QB better because I don't believe that at all (Flacco did a good job escaping)... Baltimore did exactly what any opposing team should do which is shutdown the screens and short passes. I've been totally stumped as to why Baltimore is the first team to even try to focus on that area but it's hard to argue that it didn't reveal some weaknesses.

Flacco did have some great plays where he was about to be sacked and made a play. The kid is for real. However, the body language in that stadium was vastly different between the two teams. Trust me, Bmore's playoff hopes started yesterday and it showed. The fact that Denver's Oline couldnt stop the 3 man rush, couldnt tackle worth a shit, allowed a rookie kickoff returner to take it too the house, predictable playcalling, and allowing Ray Rice to run over them was a major problem yesterday. Denver's body language said to me they just didnt care yesterday while Bmore was hungry for the win.

Nomad
11-02-2009, 07:00 AM
You're right....I just can't stand the negativity being based on 1 game....especially from posters who had all but disappeared until this loss.

We can't use this one game to predict the future either.

Either way, I think we're both on the same page. We want the best for the Broncos,

With this game and looking at the past 3 games vs the Ravens in Balt, we can come to the conclusion that the BRONCOS suck in Baltimore playing the Ravens, they get crap beat out of them and lose by double digits each time!! Like I said before, kinda reminds you of the BRONCOS in Miami vs the Dolphins! So for future predictions, if we come back to Balt expect to lose by double digits!!;)

Northman
11-02-2009, 07:06 AM
Well... I was expecting a loss against Ravens or against Steelers...

I prefer to lose against Ravens... Now, I want to see how our team will rebound...

We had a bad game... But give credit to one of the best (if not the best) D in the NFL. And it seems we didn't do very well at Baltimore (our record is pretty bad there).
And hell, it's not like if we were defeated by Raiders like Eagles were :rolleyes: ...
For the 1st time this season we couldn't find answers to what Ravens gave us...

Yeah, some teams will look at what Ravens did to us for sure... But, the question is : will they be able to run it like Ravens did? Not so sure...

At the beginning of the season, who wouldn't have signed to be 6-1 ?
Many people predicted us to be 2-5 at this time...
SO, blame Orton for his lack of mobility (damn, I'm mad we didn't take a shot on Vick :tsk: :laugh: ), his weak arm (I don't know how you can throw deep when you have this pressure)... blame McD for his poor play-calling (he sucked so bad the 6 previous game)... Blame our OL to be so awful... our last year's D to be back...

Pfff... 6 wins against 1 loss and you all want to change everything and blame everyone???

Kyle at least didn't throw a pick under this pressure...

Now, what we have to do is to understand why we lost and how to correct that... In other words : learn from this loss...
I'm sure our team will show more fire the next game... I don't think it will be a cool week at Dove Valley... And I'm sure our staff will work harder to find answers...

See you next week :salute:

Go Broncos... :defense:

Great post. It is funny though, after we won our first 3 games i made a comment on the metal forum im a member of in the sports thread. One of the guys on there is a friend of mine who lives in Hanover and is a Ravens fan. He went back and found the post after the first 3 games and pointed out that i had pretty much called our record. Someone had said to me at the time that we would have difficulty with Dallas, New England, San Diego, and Bmore. And all those are true but i said this in reply:


Dallas- could beat Denver but they are definitely overrated.

New England- They are struggling without Welker in the lineup and with Brady
trying to get back into form. Beatable.

San Diego- They have some holes there, certainly beatable.

Baltimore- We lose this game as Bmore is the best team out of the 4 you mentioned.



Fact is, Cincy is better than what people give them credit for. They beat the world champions and one of the best teams in the NFC with GB in their own backyard. Luck play or not, we held them to 7 points. I remember not too long ago a certain team winning the SB with great defensive play. It can be done only time will tell.


Obviously, Bmore was 3-0 at that point before they lost 3 close games but they were and are still a contender. So if Denver took them lightly at all that was a big mistake on their part. But the flipside is that was a road game and a loss there just isnt that big of a deal. We just dont play well there anyway. As long as we keep winning at home and maybe steal 1 or 2 on the road we will be fine.

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:11 AM
Great post. It is funny though, after we won our first 3 games i made a comment on the metal forum im a member of in the sports thread. One of the guys on there is a friend of mine who lives in Hanover and is a Ravens fan. He went back and found the post after the first 3 games and pointed out that i had pretty much called our record. Someone had said to me at the time that we would have difficulty with Dallas, New England, San Diego, and Bmore. And all those are true but i said this in reply:




Obviously, Bmore was 3-0 at that point before they lost 3 close games but they were and are still a contender. So if Denver took them lightly at all that was a big mistake on their part. But the flipside is that was a road game and a loss there just isnt that big of a deal. We just dont play well there anyway. As long as we keep winning at home and maybe steal 1 or 2 on the road we will be fine.



key point...its not a big deal......we are going to the playoffs(A huge improvement over last year)we are fighting now for homefield advantage and a possible first rd bye.....we have the chiefs 2 times, the raiders and chargers at home, plus the redskins and a very soft giants team.....i think we will be just fine.....in fact we could lose to pitt and i still think we would be fine....


but with regards to the original 1st post in this thread, kyle ortons lack of mobility and making some deep throws to spread the field, as well as playcalling or lack thereof to protect orton are all valid points. the ravens put a blueprint out im sure the rest of the league will be salivating over.....

if there was ever time for offensive adjustment like cugel stated about protecting orton better, playcalling and spreading the field now is it!!!!

Nomad
11-02-2009, 07:14 AM
Remember we have to play the Chiefs at Arrowhead in Dec, we all know how that goes!!! I don't see any team in the NFL being soft, well except the Browns!!

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:15 AM
Believe it or not people like to cry for the sake of crying. They are never happy with anything Bronco related and fail to see anything good in it.

i have also noted quite frequently people like to gloat for the sake of gloating......



NOT you though!!!

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:18 AM
Remember we have to play the Chiefs at Arrowhead in Dec, we all know how that goes!!! I don't see any team in the NFL being soft, well except the Browns!!

i see many teams, the raiders, chiefs, giants, jaguars, packers, lions, rams, chargers, bills, jets, redskins, giants, bears, titans

exhibiting the same soft play we exhibited starting november the last few years.....


any given sunday still applies, but i think its alot less likely we lose to the chiefs 31-10 at home for example like last year...lol

and yes arrowhead is tough to play at, but there team is really, really, really bad!!!!! like detroit lions, st loius rams, clevland browns bad!!!!

Nomad
11-02-2009, 07:26 AM
i see many teams, the raiders, chiefs, giants, jaguars, packers, lions, rams, chargers, bills, jets, redskins, giants, bears, titans

exhibiting the same soft play we exhibited starting november the last few years.....


any given sunday still applies, but i think its alot less likely we lose to the chiefs 31-10 at home for example like last year...lol

and yes arrowhead is tough to play at, but there team is really, really, really bad!!!!! doom should have a field day....

I guess we'll find out with 9 games left who's soft! I hope the BRONCOS have gotten out of the habit of digressing as the season goes on! I expect the BRONCOS to bounce back Monday night and gain their momentum and go on an ass whoppin winning streak!!

Elevation inc
11-02-2009, 07:29 AM
I guess we'll find out with 9 games left who's soft! I hope the BRONCOS have gotten out of the habit of digressing as the season goes on! I expect the BRONCOS to bounce back Monday night and gain their momentum and go on an ass whoppin winning streak!!

i agree and pray as well this is the case.....:beer:

frenchfan
11-02-2009, 07:30 AM
if there was ever time for offensive adjustment like cugel stated about protecting orton better, playcalling and spreading the field now is it!!!!Well, it's obvious we didn't protect Orton to allow him to (try to) open the field... Our OL was beaten by Ravens' DL the whole game... We couldn't run either...

It's true Orton is not a mobile QB... That's not a real problem in itself (Brady and Manning are not mobile either), but I agree we have to make a better job about pass protection.

The question is... Was it just about 1 game in which we were dominated or because our OL can't really do the job? I think we did a decent job the first 6 games... In this one, Ravens were too good for us IMO...
Will our next opponents dominate us like that? If so, then we'll be in troubles... May be they'll try to play like Ravens did, but it's always a question of execution IMO...

But something tells me that McD & co will have a deep look at what happened yesterday...

Last, that wasn't our only pb yesterday... Our ST were awful... Our D wasn't good too...

Let's see how we'll rebound...

Go Broncos :defense:

Northman
11-02-2009, 07:38 AM
playcalling or lack thereof to protect orton are all valid points.

Actually, they are not valid. Is Kyle the fastest Qb alive? No. But he showed mobility yesterday when he ran for a first down. As far as his arm strength the fact is we havent seen it because the playcalling isnt asking for it. But towards the end of the game i did see Kyle throw 20-30 yds downfield. It can be done but its not what McD is calling for. So if your concerned about the lack of downfield throws than lay it at McD's feet, not Orton's.

Northman
11-02-2009, 07:43 AM
i have also noted quite frequently people like to gloat for the sake of gloating......



NOT you though!!!


Oh, ill admit it. Im gloating. Mainly because i told a lot of you guys to wait and see how the season went before calling it a failure. You guys were already throwing in the towel before a real game had been played. But i guess at this point Elevation is what is more acceptable or classy? To gloat about being 6-1 and beating some quality teams including a division rival who has had our number the last few years? Or gloating because we got blown out by a desperate team in a place we havent won in yet? I dont care how much i may or may not agree with the brass or coach or player. I wont EVER gloat about a loss just because i want to be right. Ever. And i guess that is what separates me from a few on this board. I rather gloat that im right about winning than stoop so low to gloat when my team lost or has a crappy season.

claymore
11-02-2009, 07:49 AM
I hate Baltimore.

Dirk
11-02-2009, 07:57 AM
I hate Baltimore.

No kidding! :mad:

But they sure played a great game. You have to hand it to Baltimore. That was the best defensive game I have witnessed all year. Of course it had to happen against the Broncos but still, it was an amazing thing to watch. :tsk:

Medford Bronco
11-02-2009, 07:59 AM
Forget the stuff about arm strength. We just went through 3 years of a guy with arm strength making throws under pressure that results in interceptions. NO thanks to that.

We need a QB that's cerebral. There's a difference.

dont forget Red Zone picks as well.

Medford Bronco
11-02-2009, 08:01 AM
Believe it or not people like to cry for the sake of crying. They are never happy with anything Bronco related and fail to see anything good in it.

Sounds like fans of all Boston teams, especially the Red Sox. The biggest crybaby fans in the World.

Tned
11-02-2009, 08:06 AM
Actually, they are not valid. Is Kyle the fastest Qb alive? No. But he showed mobility yesterday when he ran for a first down. As far as his arm strength the fact is we havent seen it because the playcalling isnt asking for it. But towards the end of the game i did see Kyle throw 20-30 yds downfield. It can be done but its not what McD is calling for. So if your concerned about the lack of downfield throws than lay it at McD's feet, not Orton's.

Actually, I think we have seen enough in the first seven games to know that Kyle doesn't have a noodle arm. He has routinely been zipping the short and medium ball into tight spaces. Once he got the glove off, it became obvious that he has enough arm strength to get the job done.

On the other hand, while we only have 6-10 examples of long ball attempts, his accuracy has been way off, which is exactly what you will hear from Bears' fans that talk about Orton.

I'm hoping that experience, and coaching from the two Mics (McDaniels and McCoy) will help him on his long ball technique, but to date (including his time in Chicago), he is simply not a deep ball threat.

Mike
11-02-2009, 09:24 AM
We're doomed.

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 09:36 AM
We're doomed.

I know you're being sarcastic, but if anyone thinks Denver is doomed after one loss that's just a little to fatalistic for me. Even really good teams get punched in the mouth every once in awhile.

Slick
11-02-2009, 09:43 AM
why Not? why can't we criticise a 6-1 team? Becaus we are 6-1 means there isn't something to observe and note that didn't look good? Why is it that people think we should just have happy happy joy joy posts and thoughts all the time?

YES.. criticism... wow.. how horrible :rolleyes:


Geeze, Slick, take a chill pill with some Barona Tequila. Our boys gat beat down today, period. We've come to believe that would not happen this year.

Hats off to the Ravens and their coaches.

I do have a sneaking suspiscion that McD has some aces up his sleeve. He's just sitting in his office going, "I can't believe we haven't had use any of this s$%^t yet! Forget the Ravens, we've got to beat our AFC West foes first.".

My problem was really the fact that we haven't seen much out of cugel if at all and now he feels like posting? If he had shared the first part of the season with us I wouldn't have reacted the way I did. I'm over it.

Mike
11-02-2009, 09:44 AM
I know you're being sarcastic, but if anyone thinks Denver is doomed after one loss that's just a little to fatalistic for me. Even really good teams get punched in the mouth every once in awhile.

Yes, I was being sarcastic. I am not too upset about the loss. Baltimore was the better team and Denver got it's butt handed to them. It happens.

CrazyHorse
11-02-2009, 09:46 AM
I think if we would have to play the Ravens in the playoffs at home we would win.

slim
11-02-2009, 09:52 AM
"This is Exactly What We Can Expect This Season"

I agree, I think we can expect to win 6 out of every 7 games we play.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 10:27 AM
That's fine and dandy but if Orton can throw it 75 yards but if he can't hit the target then its kind of useless.

Are we supposed to take this statement now as evidence that he can't hit the
target? You didn't happen to notice Orton's last pass of the game, did you?

A laser down the field and on the money . . .

-----

milehigh
11-02-2009, 10:30 AM
This is exactly what I expected. The first lose of the season and all the doubters and skeptics would come out and in full force.

Anyone who thinks we are moving in the wrong direction honestly just doesn't follow the Broncos. We lost to a very good team yesterday and while I wasn't happy with the effort I fully expect them to bounce back next week.

Things are looking up for the Broncos even today, just two years ago we lost to the Lions 44-7. I know all the players and coaching staff are upset at how this game went. I know the team will come out a lot more focused next monday.

pnbronco
11-02-2009, 10:36 AM
"This is Exactly What We Can Expect This Season"

I agree, I think we can expect to win 6 out of every 7 games we play.

:salute:...:salute:

Please post more, I love the smile you put on my face...:D

Clay's right I hate Baltimore, not too fond of Arrowhead either.

So the team got beat by the better team yesterday. Well since I thought they would be 2-5 at this point what the heck do I know other than McD has done a wonderful job of working with our team. Do I expect some more losses, heck yeah, it's still a new Coaching Staff, team members and system.

Clay I have to say that you totally earned my respect. You were so frustrated with the off season because you love this team so much. You've also been here the whole time and had fun with us and enjoyed the success that have shocked most of us, so....:salute:

I'm sure lots of film will be watched at Dove this week. Monday night does not get any easier that's for sure. So let's hear it for adjustments and another learning curve....Go Broncos....:defense:

Medford Bronco
11-02-2009, 10:38 AM
Real Bronco fans do not get excited when their team loses.

Go be a Bears fan and enjoy the turnovers in the Red Zone.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 10:44 AM
Actually, I think we have seen enough in the first seven games to know that Kyle doesn't have a noodle arm. He has routinely been zipping the short and medium ball into tight spaces. Once he got the glove off, it became obvious that he has enough arm strength to get the job done.

On the other hand, while we only have 6-10 examples of long ball attempts, his accuracy has been way off, which is exactly what you will hear from Bears' fans that talk about Orton.

I'm hoping that experience, and coaching from the two Mics (McDaniels and McCoy) will help him on his long ball technique, but to date (including his time in Chicago), he is simply not a deep ball threat.

Two of Orton's deep passes have been dropped. Another is where he barely
overthrew Marshall way down the field. Meanwhile, I watched Brady badly
miss two deep throws in their Denver game, and I watched Favre miss his
receiver by a good yard about a week ago. Completion percentages do go
way down on deep throws. That's physics.

However, I am under the impression that Orton has been working with the
coaches in the deep game, and he has improved over time. Yes, he has a
way to go, but he is improving.

But to imply that the Broncos lost because Orton can't pass deep is absurd.
(I'm not saying that here about you, Tned, because you did not say that.)
The fact is, there was no time for the deep patterns to develop because of
the intense pressure.

Want an improvement in the deep game? First, get better at pass blocking
(i.e., replace Hamilton). Second, get the deep guys, especially Marshall, to
run crisper routes and get a little separation. Third, get Scheffler active again
in the deep middle, as they did when Shanny was here.

Actually, what ultimately won the game for the Ravens was intensity. They
played over their heads, and it was at home where the crowd helped them.
I predicted a 31-17 win for the Broncos, and I would again, except that this
week I failed to consider the intangibles. There wasn't any way the Broncos
were going to go into Baltimore and win this week. There wasn't any way any
team was going to win in Baltimore this week.

When a team is as good as Baltimore and as desperate as they were
yesterday, how do you go in there and beat them? Simple: you don't. :coffee:

/ramble

-----

GEM
11-02-2009, 10:56 AM
i not even going to bother reading all the attacks after i read the first page directed at cugel becasue quite simply he pointed out a obvious defect we are facing and you all call him out like he said its the end of the world.....not once did he say we are doomed or screwed like you all portray, he quite simply elaborated to the fact we have to find a way to protect orton better or get a more mobile Qb, its quite simple really....

our entire Inetrior OL has struggled this year, and yesetrday a clinic was put on them i have no problems with our tackles right now, but our interior OL can not protect against the blitz.

i would imagine that part of this has to do with MCD wanting to run a more man oriented scheme with bigger guards and a center. that change is probally a reason for some of the inconsitency, but it clear if you stack the box against the broncos the offense we run struggles.....

1 game or not we got blasted yesterday......there are imperfections on this team plain and simple.....im sure the playoffs is still a virtual lock, but as cugel stated MCD needs to come up with a way to protect orton better or the blueprint clinic the ravens put on us yesterday will be echoed by the pitts, indys, phillys, giants


we are by no means doomed or even in serious trouble, but its clear that the issues cugel brought up about orton are legit and not unfounded....he does struggle with the blitz in his face and thats why baltimore brought it the way they did....there is a blueprint now on getting to orton and its up to the coaching staff to protect orton....

No, as the title says....what we can expect this season...which is false.

We can lay a whole lot more credit on 6 games to predict a future than we can 1 game.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Oh this is much better then mine

Poet
11-02-2009, 11:03 AM
Haloti Ngata making an interior line look bad? Never....

Guys, while I did expect you to win, it isn't like your offense got stopped by a bad defense. Yeah, the Raven defense isn't what it used to be, but some posters are acting like last year's Lions showed up and whipped your ass.

pnbronco
11-02-2009, 11:07 AM
Haloti Ngata making an interior line look bad? Never....

Guys, while I did expect you to win, it isn't like your offense got stopped by a bad defense. Yeah, the Raven defense isn't what it used to be, but some posters are acting like last year's Lions showed up and whipped your ass.

Been there...live through it.....it's not like the Lion's 2 years ago were that much better....:laugh:

Northman
11-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Actually, I think we have seen enough in the first seven games to know that Kyle doesn't have a noodle arm. He has routinely been zipping the short and medium ball into tight spaces. Once he got the glove off, it became obvious that he has enough arm strength to get the job done.

On the other hand, while we only have 6-10 examples of long ball attempts, his accuracy has been way off, which is exactly what you will hear from Bears' fans that talk about Orton.

I'm hoping that experience, and coaching from the two Mics (McDaniels and McCoy) will help him on his long ball technique, but to date (including his time in Chicago), he is simply not a deep ball threat.


Well, like Top i dont really buy into that idea. Personally, i just havent seen enough attempts downfield to really warrant that perception. And your using the Bears as more evidence to your opinion but remember that the Bears havent been utilizing Cutler very well either so maybe its the coaches (at least Ursa would agree) that are the problem in Chi-town. Oh, and ive seen Jay overthrow quite a few players both here and in Chicago so when it comes to true accurate passers there just arent that many. Right now i would say the most accurate would be Manning, Brees, and Brady. But, i would like to go back to a discussion you and i had about Jake Plummer.

You use to argue with me about how Jake wasnt at fault for his turning the ball over or bad play by saying the system around him was changing. But at the end of the day your arguement was that with Kubes Jake could play within the system (and Jake had no deep threat accuracy at all) but when it got to Dinger the system failed him.

So, if your correct about Orton not being able to be accurate far down the field than wouldnt it be wise to stay within the system that works best for him for the time being? As i stated in my other thread, the whole team had a letdown yesterday but it was nowhere close to being on Orton's shoulders. If you want to say that under pressure Flacco was able to make plays that Orton couldnt i can agree with that. But then again in order to get the pressure we needed on Flacco we had to blitz while Bmore simply just had to use their 4 man rush which meant we had a shortage of defenders somewhere. It was just a poorous game on our part and like many have pointed out here i just dont see the logic in crucifying a Quarterback who was the least at fault yesterday.

milehigh
11-02-2009, 11:22 AM
Real Bronco fans do not get excited when their team loses.

Go be a Bears fan and enjoy the turnovers in the Red Zone.

I am not sure if this was in response to my post, but I will respond to it anyway.

By no means was I excited that we lost, in fact I turned it off late in the 4th quarter because of how frustrating it was to watch. Didn't even watch any of the late games.

What I am saying is just because we had a tough loss against a good team doesn't mean the sky is falling. Doesn't mean you can't be critical of your team after a loss, that is actually the best time. But don't overlook the 6 games we won before.

My comment was to the posters who only come around when negative things happen, just because they can't admit they were wrong in the offseason. Basically the people wanting to see this team fail just to prove their points.

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Lots of angry folks some because we lost yesterday.

Some because they are still pissed over the offseason.

For those that BAL whooped up on us. They were in the AFCCG last year IIRC. Did not lose anyone and Flaco now just has that much more exprience as well as a new WR to play with. Rice is a dynamic force. Their HC has just that much more exprience also. They lost 3 games by a total of 11 points this season.

For those that are still pissed about the offseason and all the doom and gloom that Y'all predicted so far had not come to fruition. GET a happy life. Most of you were to gutless to be here the past 8 weeks to take your lumps or to say hey I was wrong.

Y'all had to come back after a loss to a damned fine team to GLOAT. Some bronco fans you are. IMHO

Sent via Blackberry by altell.

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 11:58 AM
For those that are still pissed about the offseason and all the doom and gloom that Y'all predicted so far had not come to fruition. GET a ******* life. Most of you were to gutless to be here the past 8 weeks to take your lumps or to say hey I was wrong.

Y'all had to come back after a loss to a damned fine team to GLOAT. Some bronco fans you are. IMHO

Even if they lose to a tough team like Pitt on Monday, those will still have a big cup of shut the **** up when the Broncos are playing on weekends in January and McDaniels is Coach of the Year.

sanluis
11-02-2009, 12:56 PM
I would like to give my opinion.

Blue print for other teams?

Only if the other teams have the personal like the Ravens to play that kind of D. I don't think anyone on Denver's schedule except the steelers have the personnel to do that to Denver. ( baring more injuries to Denver's lines) The Ravens D is great. Right up there with the steelers when you look at the front seven. So maybe that is a blue print... but not many teams can even think of doing it.

Kyle Orton being a problem due to arm strength.


I don't agree. I believe the issue was more to do with protection and winning the battle in the trenches. Kyle can make all the throws when given time.

Injuries to O-line may be more of a concern IMO than the actual parts.

The first half of the game was a defensive masterpiece. The second half the Ravens were able to wear Denver down and win a game that the Ravens needed desperately.

This probably will happen again with the Steelers. Not may other teams will be able to match what the Raven did IMO.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 01:23 PM
I would like to give my opinion.

Blue print for other teams?

Only if the other teams have the personal like the Ravens to play that kind of D. I don't think anyone on Denver's schedule except the steelers have the personnel to do that to Denver. ( baring more injuries to Denver's lines) The Ravens D is great. Right up there with the steelers when you look at the front seven. So maybe that is a blue print... but not many teams can even think of doing it.

Kyle Orton being a problem due to arm strength.


I don't agree. I believe the issue was more to do with protection and winning the battle in the trenches. Kyle can make all the throws when given time.

Injuries to O-line may be more of a concern IMO than the actual parts.

The first half of the game was a defensive masterpiece. The second half the Ravens were able to wear Denver down and win a game that the Ravens needed desperately.

This probably will happen again with the Steelers. Not may other teams will be able to match what the Raven did IMO.

Good points. I don't believe the Steelers will have the advantages the Ravens
did, though, since the game will be in Denver and the disparity of intensity
between the two teams won't be the same.

I don't believe the game was decided because of superiority of personnel, so
much as it was the difference in intensity. As I mentioned elsewhere, I believe
the Ravens would have done that to any other team in the league on that
particular day. The Broncos did not lose that game insomuch as the Ravens
won it.

IMHO.

-----

weazel
11-02-2009, 02:50 PM
the bottom line is the team come out flat and were totally surprised by Baltimore's intensity. They tried to make some half time adjustments but it just wasn't their day and Baltimore finally wore the defense down because our offense couldn't find an answer and kept the D out far too long.

I didn't expect us to win in Baltimore and I dont expect a win against Pitt.
The rest of the wasy I see it this way...
Wash W
SD L
NY W
KC W
IND L
OAK W
PHI toss up
KC W

Just looking at the schedule we look like we could go 11-5. I think thats a great record.

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 02:54 PM
Kyle Orton will contend fo a Pro Bowl spot.

Denver will be a Playoff team in January.

McDaniels will be Coach of the Year.

Anything else is icing on the already delicious cake.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 03:01 PM
Kyle Orton will contend fo a Pro Bowl spot.

Denver will be a Playoff team in January.

McDaniels will be Coach of the Year.

Anything else is icing on the already delicious cake.

Um No, Orton will not contend for a probowl the rest I agree with.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 03:03 PM
Um No, Orton will not contend for a probowl the rest I agree with.

You don't know that. How do you know that?

-----

Shazam!
11-02-2009, 03:04 PM
He will contend for a Pro Bowl spot. Get one? Not likely.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 03:05 PM
You don't know that. How do you know that?

-----


You obviously didnt notice that you were talking to McDortoh :laugh:

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 03:06 PM
the bottom line is the team come out flat and were totally surprised by Baltimore's intensity. They tried to make some half time adjustments but it just wasn't their day and Baltimore finally wore the defense down because our offense couldn't find an answer and kept the D out far too long.

I didn't expect us to win in Baltimore and I dont expect a win against Pitt.
The rest of the wasy I see it this way...
Wash W
SD L
NY W
KC W
IND L
OAK W
PHI toss up
KC W

Just looking at the schedule we look like we could go 11-5. I think thats a great record.

Just out of curiosity why do you think Denver will lose to San Diego at home?

Northman
11-02-2009, 03:29 PM
Just out of curiosity why do you think Denver will lose to San Diego at home?

I think that is a toss up as well but i expect a much tighter game from SD the second time around.

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 03:35 PM
I think that is a toss up as well but i expect a much tighter game from SD the second time around.

That's what I'm expecting.

ursamajor
11-02-2009, 03:41 PM
I think that is a toss up as well but i expect a much tighter game from SD the second time around.

I dont think so. The Chargers had a huge advantage over you guys going into that game. It is the kind of advantage teams bust their ass to get going into the playoffs. Even with an unfair advantage (getting a divisional rival after a bye at home where the divisional rival doesn't get a bye is unfair), they still fell way short. SD will do worse in Invesco

Northman
11-02-2009, 03:45 PM
I dont think so. The Chargers had a huge advantage over you guys going into that game. It is the kind of advantage teams bust their ass to get going into the playoffs. Even with an unfair advantage (getting a divisional rival after a bye at home where the divisional rival doesn't get a bye is unfair), they still fell way short. SD will do worse in Invesco


One can only hope. I had gotten so used to Shanahan crumbling after the bye week that i really dont know what to expect yet.

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Iknow the chances of us returning two kicks for TDs is zero. So those will have to be drives. That alone will make a huge difference. But I don't think SD has a running game anymore, and without that... they are sufferng.

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 03:52 PM
Kyle Orton will contend fo a Pro Bowl spot.

Denver will be a Playoff team in January.

McDaniels will be Coach of the Year.

Anything else is icing on the already delicious cake.

KO does not have a chance, there are way to many AFC hot shot QB's, Brady, Palmer, Ben, Flaco, rivers, and then there is Manning..


only room for 3 on the team.. unless they all get hurt or decline to go, KO while he is a good QB will be way down the list..


not happening..

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 03:54 PM
I think that is a toss up as well but i expect a much tighter game from SD the second time around.


I agree their D has stepped up and the offense is purring pretty good right now..

Watchthemiddle
11-02-2009, 03:56 PM
Somebody needs to get over me and move on..

Anyway..

Did anyone see Payton yesterday? He had an off game against the 49ers. He was off on his passes and he even had ALLLLL day to throw the ball and they almost lost if not for Addai throwing a TD to Wayne. Thats right, Addai threw the ball not Manning.

QB's have bad days. QB's really had bad days when they barely have time to drop back on short passes much less unleash it deep down the field.

Chalk this up as a lose, and look forward to opening a can on PITT.

Again, this will be bumped on monday night.

TIA,

WTM

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 03:59 PM
I agree their D has stepped up and the offense is purring pretty good right now..

For the last two weeks they've faced teams that are not competitive to say the least. I'll be interested to see how they fair against the Giants and the Eagles over the next two weeks.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Iknow the chances of us returning two kicks for TDs is zero. So those will have to be drives. That alone will make a huge difference. But I don't think SD has a running game anymore, and without that... they are sufferng.

That wasn't a factor in the first game. If you take away those two returns, then
you have to take away Sproles' return, and the Broncos still win.

And if the Chargers can't run against the Broncos, the Broncos win going away.
I don't believe it will be close . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 04:09 PM
That wasn't a factor in the first game. If you take away those two returns, then
you have to take away Sproles' return, and the Broncos still win.

And if the Chargers can't run against the Broncos, the Broncos win going away.
I don't believe it will be close . . .

-----

The point was... it will be a closer game because we don't always score on all our drives... but BECAUSE they can't run as effectively as they have n the past.... I don't think they will win the game.

But the kick rturns wer VERY MUCH a factor in the first game. Don't fool yourself in believing otherwise.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:15 PM
The point was... it will be a closer game because we don't always score on all our drives... but BECAUSE they can't run as effectively as they have n the past.... I don't think they will win the game.

But the kick rturns wer VERY MUCH a factor in the first game. Don't fool yourself in believing otherwise.

Right. Then Royal's kick returns were factors, and Sproles' kick return was a a factor.
However you want to play it . . .

But no offense scores on allllllll its drives. That's why punters have jobs in the NFL. :laugh:

-----

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 04:21 PM
Right. Then Royal's kick returns were factors, and Sproles' kick return was a a factor.
However you want to play it . . .

But no offense scores on allllllll its drives. That's why punters have jobs in the NFL. :laugh:

-----

Never said they did. In fact, I even pointed out in a previous post that I can't take those kicks AWAY from our team because we don't know what woudl have happened on offense. But to simply deny that they had any factor in the game.. or that "if you take this away you must take that away and thus this and this"..... silly.

Point being was that the game willmost likely be closer because we won't have the benefit of having two very fast TDs from kick returns... but although it will be a closer game.. doesn't mean I think they can win because I don't think they can run the ball.

That ok, top?? I mean... I said I think the broncos are going to win. That isn't enough now? I have to say they are going to win by a LOT?? :lol:

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:23 PM
Never said they did. In fact, I even pointed out in a previous post that I can't take those kicks AWAY from our team because we don't know what woudl have happened on offense. But to simply deny that they had any factor in the game.. or that "if you take this away you must take that away and thus this and this"..... silly.

Point being was that the game willmost likely be closer because we won't have the benefit of having two very fast TDs from kick returns... but although it will be a closer game.. doesn't mean I think they can win because I don't think they can run the ball.

That ok, top?? I mean... I said I think the broncos are going to win. That isn't enough now? I have to say they are going to win by a LOT?? :lol:

Why do you have to make it something it is not, Ravage? I was essentially
agreeing with you and adding my own take to it.

Do you feel you just have to infer an argument?

I'm outta here . . .:tsk:

-----

Ravage!!!
11-02-2009, 04:26 PM
Why do you have to make it something it is not, Ravage? I was essentially
agreeing with you and adding my own take to it.

Do you feel you just have to infer an argument?

I'm outta here . . .:tsk:

-----

Simple, top. Because you follow me around and constantly try to start one. I can't help but take your posts from other threads and bring them to this one.

You always try to pick an argument and then pull this "you do this" and leave thing. Thats what you do.

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 04:42 PM
Simple, top. Because you follow me around and constantly try to start one. I can't help but take your posts from other threads and bring them to this one.

You always try to pick an argument and then pull this "you do this" and leave thing. Thats what you do.

You have the right bring to in his posts from other threads.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 04:45 PM
You have the right bring to in his posts from other threads.

Do I have the right to point out how you seem to follow me around and bait constantly?

-----

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 04:46 PM
For the last two weeks they've faced teams that are not competitive to say the least. I'll be interested to see how they fair against the Giants and the Eagles over the next two weeks.



perhaps that is the reason and perhaps they are getting it going we all know they have the talent.. notice I said talent and not coaching.. although Ron Rivera is a pretty good DC..

yes the NYG and Eagles are going to be interesting to watch.. a good barometer..

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 04:55 PM
perhaps that is the reason and perhaps they are getting it going we all know they have the talent.. notice I said talent and not coaching.. although Ron Rivera is a pretty good DC..

yes the NYG and Eagles are going to be interesting to watch.. a good barometer..

I'm not so sure about Rivera as a defensive coordinator at least with a 3-4 defense.

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 04:55 PM
ok enuff with the cat fight..

lets get :focus:

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 04:57 PM
I'm not so sure about Rivera as a defensive coordinator at least with a 3-4 defense.

maybe not but with the talent on that team mickey the moke could do it..

he is heads above NORV..

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 04:58 PM
ok enuff with the cat fight..

lets get :focus:



Post deleted.

SOCALORADO.
11-02-2009, 05:23 PM
our O-Line was being manhandled and pushed around like a junior varsity team and your blaming Orton for the lack of time?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So Orton isn't a great deep ball thrower? how enlightening! I dont think anyone here knew that until you mentioned it! genius!


AGREED.

J. Cutler VS. CLE
17/30 225 YARDS
7.5 YARDS AN ATTEMPT
TDS 0
INTS 1
RATING 66.7

weazel
11-02-2009, 05:24 PM
Just out of curiosity why do you think Denver will lose to San Diego at home?

I just think it's hard to beat them both times we play them. SD has had our number for a couple seasons and in-division games are not gimmies. SD won't be playing as soft, they have played better since our game. I also dont see Royal running two kicks back to TD's.

Actually, the more I think about it... We play KC twice and SD once, out of those 3 games I say we lose 1. It could be SD at home, or more likely it could be KC at arrowhead.

Watchthemiddle
11-02-2009, 05:27 PM
This is the same OL that only surrendered 11 sacks all of last season. Do you suppose they suddenly suck this year now that they are all a year more experienced and used to playing together with each other? :coffee:

Or could it be that Orton is a lot less mobile than Cutler, and is much less able to evade the rush, so he's more easily sacked -- 11 times in 7 games which is on pace for 25 on the season, more than twice as much as last year.

Is Ryan Clady, who gave up exactly 1/2 sack all last year now just a lousy LT? Is Casey Weigman who went to the pro-bowl last year, suddenly over the hill? How about Ryan Harris who played great all last season? Is he now dog meat out there? What's your argument?


WOW thats a pretty weak arguement and really makes your boy Cutty look bad. We only gave up 11 sacks last season and Cutty still had how many int's? Pathetic.

Also, your arguement in your other post about teams stacking 8 guys in the box daring Orton to go deep is weak as well. The Raven's didn't stack 8 guys in the box. Did you watch the game? Their front 4-5 was dominating our front 5. They didn't send 8 on each play. As a matter of fact, they dropped LB's a lot into coverage. If you don't have a WR open deep or that one WR is double covered (Marshall) deep you don't just throw deep to "prove a point". That's dumb football.

How many teams throw deep this season in the NFL? The only one I can think of that does it on a regular basis is the Saints.

How many times did Phillis throw deep against us when we beat them? NEVER. You know why? He was pressured the entire game. Its kind of hard for WR's to have time to run their pattern, the QB to drop back 7 steps and throw it deep when you are getting your legs taken out from under you on every pass attempt.

weazel
11-02-2009, 05:34 PM
WOW thats a pretty weak arguement and really makes your boy Cutty look bad. We only gave up 11 sacks last season and Cutty still had how many int's? Pathetic.

Also, your arguement in your other post about teams stacking 8 guys in the box daring Orton to go deep is weak as well. The Raven's didn't stack 8 guys in the box. Did you watch the game? Their front 4-5 was dominating our front 5. They didn't send 8 on each play. As a matter of fact, they dropped LB's a lot into coverage. If you don't have a WR open deep or that one WR is double covered (Marshall) deep you don't just throw deep to "prove a point". That's dumb football.

How many teams throw deep this season in the NFL? The only one I can think of that does it on a regular basis is the Saints.

How many times did Phillis throw deep against us when we beat them? NEVER. You know why? He was pressured the entire game. Its kind of hard for WR's to have time to run their pattern, the QB to drop back 7 steps and throw it deep when you are getting your legs taken out from under you on every pass attempt.

it's not worth it, WTM...

topscribe
11-02-2009, 05:36 PM
I just think it's hard to beat them both times we play them. SD has had our number for a couple seasons and in-division games are not gimmies. SD won't be playing as soft, they have played better since our game. I also dont see Royal running two kicks back to TD's.

Actually, the more I think about it... We play KC twice and SD once, out of those 3 games I say we lose 1. It could be SD at home, or more likely it could be KC at arrowhead.

Once again, Weaz, if you take Royal's returns away, you need to take Sproles'
away. And the Broncos still win.

But yes, SD could be a tough game for the Broncos. Yet if SD can't run
against the Broncos, I still maintain the Broncos will win going away. But then,
we shall see, shan't we? ;)

-----

BroncoJoe
11-02-2009, 05:40 PM
Even if we lose all our remaining games, we still have a better record than what most people predicted.

:threadfail:

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 05:46 PM
Cutler faced thick coverages too. Not having a run-game and playing from behind all the time will get you that. Baltimore simply showed what we already know which is that Orton can't be asked to do more than not lose the game; it also shows just how difficult it really is to play from behind and being forced to pass into thick coverages. I still think Baltimore won primarily because they squashed our strength which is that crafty short-pass/screen game. Without that going our mid-game, which is already pretty "meh", turned into a danger zone of near-INT's. The long-ball was pretty nonexistent as always.

Nomad
11-02-2009, 05:54 PM
I just think it's hard to beat them both times we play them. SD has had our number for a couple seasons and in-division games are not gimmies. SD won't be playing as soft, they have played better since our game. I also dont see Royal running two kicks back to TD's.

Actually, the more I think about it... We play KC twice and SD once, out of those 3 games I say we lose 1. It could be SD at home, or more likely it could be KC at arrowhead.

SD is a second half team and Arrowhead is not a kind place in Dec!! And the Raiders better not give us another ass whoppin at Invesco!!:mad: Divisional games are so hard to predict!!

weazel
11-02-2009, 05:56 PM
To all the Orton haters that are on here blaming a team loss on him, please explain what your vast knowledge would do.

You want to start Simms? You want Brandstater?

Elway isn't coming back, We aren't getting Cutler back, we aren't even getting Plummer back! Maybe we sign some old player thats selling cell phones or cars for a living now, thats a great idea! I can't wait to see Randall Cuningham or Jeff George back in the league!

There is no other answer, quit the belly aching. Your still whining about Cutler wanting off the team... it's done, he isn't coming back. He isn't exactly a savior for his current team either, if you haven't noticed.

Northman
11-02-2009, 05:59 PM
Cutler faced thick coverages too. Not having a run-game and playing from behind all the time will get you that.

Guess you havent been watching the Bears this year. Its this kind of thinking that is just an outright myth on this board. Go look at the Cincy, Atl, and GB games. Jay's picks came early and often in those games and helped put his team in deeper holes than they were already in.

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 06:01 PM
Cincy was up by like 21 or 28 points before Cutler threw his first INT in that game.

I did not see much of the Atlanta game; I know he basically threw the GB game away, though.

However, your post gives the feeling that I had included the phrase "all the time". Which I didn't.

slim
11-02-2009, 06:01 PM
Guess you havent been watching the Bears this year. Its this kind of thinking that is just an outright myth on this board. Go look at the Cincy, Atl, and GB games. Jay's picks came early and often in those games and helped put his team in deeper holes than they were already in.

Jay is never at fault for his poor play. There are always extenuating circumstances.

Nomad
11-02-2009, 06:01 PM
Guess you havent been watching the Bears this year. Its this kind of thinking that is just an outright myth on this board. Go look at the Cincy, Atl, and GB games. Jay's picks came early and often in those games and helped put his team in deeper holes than they were already in.

:lalala: Did you say something!!

signed

Cutler's disciples:lol:

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 06:02 PM
Also, the past-tense. As in "when he was on the Broncos".

I can't debate against poor reading skills and the incoming arguments that stem from them.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:02 PM
Cutler faced thick coverages too. Not having a run-game and playing from behind all the time will get you that. Baltimore simply showed what we already know which is that Orton can't be asked to do more than not lose the game; it also shows just how difficult it really is to play from behind and being forced to pass into thick coverages. I still think Baltimore won primarily because they squashed our strength which is that crafty short-pass/screen game. Without that going our mid-game, which is already pretty "meh", turned into a danger zone of near-INT's. The long-ball was pretty nonexistent as always.

Well no, the long ball really was not nonexistent. The long ball was responsible
for the interference call on Foxworth, and it was successful in Orton's last
pass of the game, when he threw an absolute laser down the middle.

Other than that, the rush was so intense Orton wasn't allowed time to let the
patterns to develop, and the safeties were playing deep, as you implied.

But I do believe that the 90-yard drive Orton engineered in the NE game and
the 98-yard drive in the same game shows that he can be asked to win a game.

-----

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 06:08 PM
Well no, the long ball really was not nonexistent. The long ball was responsible
for the interference call on Foxworth, and it was successful in Orton's last
pass of the game, when he threw an absolute laser down the middle.

Other than that, the rush was so intense Orton wasn't allowed time to let the
patterns to develop, and the safeties were playing deep, as you implied.

But I do believe that the 90-yard drive Orton engineered in the NE game and
the 98-yard drive in the same game shows that he can be asked to win a game.

-----

A shoddy pass interference call and a worthless play... Whew.

As for the NE game, yeah, definitely. But what I'm speaking of are games like this where nobody shows up and the QB has to take the load. Orton was huge in us winning against the Patriots, but let us not forget that our defense actually came to play ball that day too. The first time they don't show up we lose which only shows me what I already know: That Mike Nolan and our defense is the #1 reason why we are 6-1.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:08 PM
WTH is a thick coverage ;)

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:11 PM
A shoddy pass interference call and a worthless play... Whew.

As for the NE game, yeah, definitely. But what I'm speaking of are games like this where nobody shows up and the QB has to take the load. Orton was huge in us winning against the Patriots, but let us not forget that our defense actually came to play ball that day too. The first time they don't show up we lose which only shows me what I already know: That Mike Nolan and our defense is the #1 reason why we are 6-1.

But again, thats got more to do with playcalling and not the Qb. Although i agree that i would like to see more down the field passes im not the coach and i guess McD has a certain scheme that he wants to use which doesnt include bombing it down the field.

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:11 PM
am I the only one who remembers Cutlers deep throws that were overthrown more often than not? He also threw high and off target to both Royal and Marshall quite a lot the second half of last season. Everyone thinks we had a world beating offense last season, but we only looked really good the first few games of the season and then it fell flat.

TXBRONC
11-02-2009, 06:11 PM
WTH is a thick coverage ;)

It's the coverage that is thicker than a medium or a thin coverage. :D

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:11 PM
WTH is a thick coverage ;)

its that stuff I shave off my nether regions! :eek:

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:11 PM
A shoddy pass interference call and a worthless play... Whew.

As for the NE game, yeah, definitely. But what I'm speaking of are games like this where nobody shows up and the QB has to take the load. Orton was huge in us winning against the Patriots, but let us not forget that our defense actually came to play ball that day too. The first time they don't show up we lose which only shows me what I already know: That Mike Nolan and our defense is the #1 reason why we are 6-1.

NUB, the defense had nothing to do with those two 90+ yard drives . . .

-----

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:13 PM
am I the only one who remembers Cutlers deep throws that were overthrown more often than not? He also threw high and off target to both Royal and Marshall quite a lot the second half of last season. Everyone thinks we had a world beating offense last season, but we only looked really good the first few games of the season and then it fell flat.

Dude, what are you talking about. Jay is the most accurate passer in the league. He has the golden arm. Even Chuck Norris bows down to his greatness. :coffee:

weazel
11-02-2009, 06:14 PM
A shoddy pass interference call and a worthless play... Whew.

As for the NE game, yeah, definitely. But what I'm speaking of are games like this where nobody shows up and the QB has to take the load. Orton was huge in us winning against the Patriots, but let us not forget that our defense actually came to play ball that day too. The first time they don't show up we lose which only shows me what I already know: That Mike Nolan and our defense is the #1 reason why we are 6-1.

I think Brady Quinn is the only QB in the league that would take the load...

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:15 PM
Dude, what are you talking about. Jay is the most accurate passer in the league. He has the golden arm. Even Chuck Norris bows down to his greatness. :coffee:

To be honest Jay does have one of if not the strongest arms in the league and pretty damn accurate. Its his empty skull and lack of maturity that is his pitfall.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:15 PM
I think Brady Quinn is the only QB in the league that would take the load...

LMMFAO now thats funny

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:15 PM
I think Brady Quinn is the only QB in the league that would drop a load...

I disagree. You forget about JaMar . . . oh, did I misquote you? :shocked:

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weazel
11-02-2009, 06:16 PM
i disagree. You forget about jamar . . . Oh, did i misquote you? :shocked:

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lmao

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:17 PM
To be honest Jay does have one of if not the strongest arms in the league and pretty damn accurate. Its his empty skull and lack of maturity that is his pitfall.


He really isnt that accurate dude. He does have a nice arm but if you actually sit down and watch him he throws behind receivers and overthrows them pretty consistently. Can he improve? Probably. Will he? I doubt it. As for the empty skull, i dont think he is dumb but there are some maturity issues there.

NameUsedBefore
11-02-2009, 06:17 PM
NUB, the defense had nothing to do with those two 90+ yard drives . . .

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They had everything to do with those drives. 90+ yard drives are useless if the other team has 30+ points on you. We're only 1-year removed from having a godawful defense, people. The memory of that unit surly is still about.

As for the playcalling. Sure. But it also suits Orton's strength which is the short game. Orton's game gets progressively worse the further out he goes. Saying the long ball was "nonexistent" isn't so much as a slight as it is an acknowledgment of something we're just not going to be seeing much of; but it is an absent tool in the shed. This all comes back to how Orton fared when the short game was getting snuffed out which isn't too well. Baltimore is the first team to really go after the short stuff; Baltimore is also the first team to make the defense look mortal. I'm not sure what the topic creator had in mind with his retroactive topic-title, but we have nothing to go off of to say this will become the standard. All teams face games like this.

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:18 PM
He really isnt that accurate dude. He does have a nice arm but if you actually sit down and watch him he throws behind receivers and overthrows them pretty consistently. Can he improve? Probably. Will he? I doubt it. As for the empty skull, i dont think he is dumb but there are some maturity issues there.

The intelligence is there in abundance. It's common sense that is missing.

I think that was probably Hotrod's point, wasn't it? :D

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Nomad
11-02-2009, 06:18 PM
To be honest Jay does have one of if not the strongest arms in the league and pretty damn accurate. Its his empty skull and lack of maturity that is his pitfall.

I agree!

Northman
11-02-2009, 06:19 PM
The intelligence is there in abundance. It's common sense that is missing.

I think that was probably Hotrod's point, wasn't it? :D

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I never know with Dortoh. He confuses me more than confucious. :lol:

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:21 PM
I never know with Dortoh. He confuses me more than confucious. :lol:

I think Hotrod confuses himself . . . :confused:

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Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:22 PM
He really isnt that accurate dude. He does have a nice arm but if you actually sit down and watch him he throws behind receivers and overthrows them pretty consistently. Can he improve? Probably. Will he? I doubt it. As for the empty skull, i dont think he is dumb but there are some maturity issues there.

How much of that is when he is trying to fit passes into windows or attempting throws down the field that other QBs simply cant. I think his over confidence in his arm strength makes him force the ball down field which in turn creates the illussion of an accuracy problem. Of course as long as he continues to play street ball and does not really learn the mental part of being a qb or how to lead a huddle he will continue to be a qb with great promiss who never wins shit.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:23 PM
I never know with Dortoh. He confuses me more than confucious. :lol:

Try living with the dude :laugh:

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 06:25 PM
OK lets cut out the

mocking of members,

former airhead QB's

and Confucius..

topscribe
11-02-2009, 06:28 PM
OK lets cut out the

mocking of members,

former airhead QB's

and Confucius..



:lol:

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Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:31 PM
I'm not mocking Cugel ****** got 17 pages out of this horse shit.

honz
11-02-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm not mocking Cugel ****** got 17 pages out of this horse shit.

Just face it Dortoh. Your thread sucks compared to this one. Sorry, but it's a fact budday.

Dortoh
11-02-2009, 06:39 PM
Just face it Dortoh. Your thread sucks compared to this one. Sorry, but it's a fact budday.

I did my best Honz. Im under a lot of pressure lately. I think my turtle has some kind of shell rash or maybe just depression. I'll get my A game back someday.

Tned
11-02-2009, 08:35 PM
Two of Orton's deep passes have been dropped. Another is where he barely
overthrew Marshall way down the field. Meanwhile, I watched Brady badly
miss two deep throws in their Denver game, and I watched Favre miss his
receiver by a good yard about a week ago. Completion percentages do go
way down on deep throws. That's physics.

However, I am under the impression that Orton has been working with the
coaches in the deep game, and he has improved over time. Yes, he has a
way to go, but he is improving.

But to imply that the Broncos lost because Orton can't pass deep is absurd.
(I'm not saying that here about you, Tned, because you did not say that.)
The fact is, there was no time for the deep patterns to develop because of
the intense pressure.

Want an improvement in the deep game? First, get better at pass blocking
(i.e., replace Hamilton). Second, get the deep guys, especially Marshall, to
run crisper routes and get a little separation. Third, get Scheffler active again
in the deep middle, as they did when Shanny was here.

Actually, what ultimately won the game for the Ravens was intensity. They
played over their heads, and it was at home where the crowd helped them.
I predicted a 31-17 win for the Broncos, and I would again, except that this
week I failed to consider the intangibles. There wasn't any way the Broncos
were going to go into Baltimore and win this week. There wasn't any way any
team was going to win in Baltimore this week.

When a team is as good as Baltimore and as desperate as they were
yesterday, how do you go in there and beat them? Simple: you don't. :coffee:

/ramble

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I wasn't referring to one game, I was referring to seven. He has been very innacurate on his deep balls, with most being uncatchable.

I agree against Baltimore he didn't have time to throw deep many times. The one double reverse fake was one of the few times he had time to throw deep.


Well, like Top i dont really buy into that idea. Personally, i just havent seen enough attempts downfield to really warrant that perception. And your using the Bears as more evidence to your opinion but remember that the Bears havent been utilizing Cutler very well either so maybe its the coaches (at least Ursa would agree) that are the problem in Chi-town. Oh, and ive seen Jay overthrow quite a few players both here and in Chicago so when it comes to true accurate passers there just arent that many. Right now i would say the most accurate would be Manning, Brees, and Brady. But, i would like to go back to a discussion you and i had about Jake Plummer.

You use to argue with me about how Jake wasnt at fault for his turning the ball over or bad play by saying the system around him was changing. But at the end of the day your arguement was that with Kubes Jake could play within the system (and Jake had no deep threat accuracy at all) but when it got to Dinger the system failed him.

So, if your correct about Orton not being able to be accurate far down the field than wouldnt it be wise to stay within the system that works best for him for the time being? As i stated in my other thread, the whole team had a letdown yesterday but it was nowhere close to being on Orton's shoulders. If you want to say that under pressure Flacco was able to make plays that Orton couldnt i can agree with that. But then again in order to get the pressure we needed on Flacco we had to blitz while Bmore simply just had to use their 4 man rush which meant we had a shortage of defenders somewhere. It was just a poorous game on our part and like many have pointed out here i just dont see the logic in crucifying a Quarterback who was the least at fault yesterday.

You might want to go back and read my posts. I didn't say that Orton needs to be accurate downfield to be successful, I was responding to someone's contention that he had no problem throwing the deep ball. I agreed that his arm is 'strong' enough to throw downfield, but he has an accuracy problem, and routinely under or over throws receivers.

We have seen this in the first seven games, and those were the reports that came out of TC as well -- he either threw up floaters, or threw lasers over the receivers head.

So, yes, I always have and still do believe that the job of the HC and coordinators is to implement schemes that suit the players on the field. Hence the reason I haven't been one of the people posting on here about how we should be running bootlegs. Orton is not a bootleg QB. I don't think we should be running a verical offense with Orton, it isn't his strength. I wasn't one of the people that whined about Griese and his dink and dunk passing game.

That said, when a couple posters try and claim that Orton has no problem with the deep ball, I'm going to call BS until the time comes that Orton shows us he can hit the deep open receivers with some regularity.


am I the only one who remembers Cutlers deep throws that were overthrown more often than not? He also threw high and off target to both Royal and Marshall quite a lot the second half of last season. Everyone thinks we had a world beating offense last season, but we only looked really good the first few games of the season and then it fell flat.

The Broncos offense was on fire for the first three games, when they had mostly a short, controlled passing game. During the offseason and in training camp, Cutler and the coaches talked about how they needed to move the chains, take what the defense gave them and not go for the home run ball.

After the great success in the first three games, following their offseason/preseason game plan, whether it was Bates' play calling or Cutler's decisions (or some of both), they started to routinely go for the homerun ball, and the offense wasn't the same the rest of the year.


Dude, what are you talking about. Jay is the most accurate passer in the league. He has the golden arm. Even Chuck Norris bows down to his greatness. :coffee:

You guys bait like crazy and then attack people that take the bait.





OK lets cut out the

mocking of members,

former airhead QB's

and Confucius..



Ok, so we aren't allowed to take shots at Plummer anymore? Mr. smoke and mirrors himself?

drewloc
11-02-2009, 08:55 PM
There was a lot of things that left a bitter taste yesterday. It definitely is a collective issue that needs to be worked on, but the coaching staff has my approval so far this year. 6-1 is still a damn good record to have at this point, and if they can make some corrections then we should be in good shape. :salute:

That said though, I want to take a shot at one player though that got me fired up. Is it just me or does Hamilton look like he was being thrown around yesterday. Until he had help he looked completely overwhelmed on many plays. Again I know that we have plenty of other issues also, but this stood out to me.

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 08:56 PM
I wasn't referring to one game, I was referring to seven. He has been very innacurate on his deep balls, with most being uncatchable.

I agree against Baltimore he didn't have time to throw deep many times. The one double reverse fake was one of the few times he had time to throw deep.



You might want to go back and read my posts. I didn't say that Orton needs to be accurate downfield to be successful, I was responding to someone's contention that he had no problem throwing the deep ball. I agreed that his arm is 'strong' enough to throw downfield, but he has an accuracy problem, and routinely under or over throws receivers.

We have seen this in the first seven games, and those were the reports that came out of TC as well -- he either threw up floaters, or threw lasers over the receivers head.

So, yes, I always have and still do believe that the job of the HC and coordinators is to implement schemes that suit the players on the field. Hence the reason I haven't been one of the people posting on here about how we should be running bootlegs. Orton is not a bootleg QB. I don't think we should be running a verical offense with Orton, it isn't his strength. I wasn't one of the people that whined about Griese and his dink and dunk passing game.

That said, when a couple posters try and claim that Orton has no problem with the deep ball, I'm going to call BS until the time comes that Orton shows us he can hit the deep open receivers with some regularity.



The Broncos offense was on fire for the first three games, when they had mostly a short, controlled passing game. During the offseason and in training camp, Cutler and the coaches talked about how they needed to move the chains, take what the defense gave them and not go for the home run ball.

After the great success in the first three games, following their offseason/preseason game plan, whether it was Bates' play calling or Cutler's decisions (or some of both), they started to routinely go for the homerun ball, and the offense wasn't the same the rest of the year.



You guys bait like crazy and then attack people that take the bait.



Ok, so we aren't allowed to take shots at Plummer anymore? Mr. smoke and mirrors himself?


once again you got that all wrong it was not Jake it was mikey..:D


if you did not get the drift I was trying to calm the waters and stop the personal stuff.



and the last time Confucius posted here was last year.. IIRC

Lonestar
11-02-2009, 09:02 PM
There was a lot of things that left a bitter taste yesterday. It definitely is a collective issue that needs to be worked on, but the coaching staff has my approval so far this year. 6-1 is still a damn good record to have at this point, and if they can make some corrections then we should be in good shape. :salute:

That said though, I want to take a shot at one player though that got me fired up. Is it just me or does Hamilton look like he was being thrown around yesterday. Until he had help he looked completely overwhelmed on many plays. Again I know that we have plenty of other issues also, but this stood out to me.



was not just you Hamilton has been the weak link in ass protect since God created little green apples..

him matched up against a DT or NT that out weighs him by 30-80 lbs is not fair.. he, Nalen and Casey were good with the ZBS when it was a team block.. but his pocket protection stinks.. he has been on roller skated giving ground into the pocket since they went to Jay in 2007..

together Casey and him IMHO are the big issue in getting yards on the ground and getting KO time to make reads on pass plays..

one or both have to go SOON.. if we had another KUPER type bigger and meaner there then Casey could get some help from the guards.. right now the middle is a sieve for rushers..

LRtagger
11-02-2009, 09:11 PM
I can only hope that the players and coaches handle this loss better than the fans do. Wow.

weazel
11-02-2009, 09:15 PM
I can only hope that the players and coaches handle this loss better than the fans do. Wow.

whatever man, didn't you know that the freaking sky is falling! forget 2012, its 2010 man!

LoyalSoldier
11-02-2009, 09:52 PM
I can only hope that the players and coaches handle this loss better than the fans do. Wow.

Heh have you ever played football? You get an ear full anytime you lose especially the way we did. If anything they take both wins and losses harder than the fans ever do. Most coaches never let you celebrate unless you win the championship.

They don't sit around and say "Hey we lost, but look at what we did for the last 6 games" instead they pick apart every little mistake they did. They get better by admitting fault and addressing it.