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View Full Version : How do you think we will try and fix our short yardage issues?



broncofaninfla
10-30-2009, 01:29 PM
How do you think we will try and fix our short yardage issues?

Day1BroncoFan
10-30-2009, 01:34 PM
May be he'll try something with Larsen and Hillis or Larsen and Moreno/Buckhalter. :whoknows:

We need to do something that's for sure.

EDIT:

I didn't see the pole before I posted but I voted other since there are two ways I think this could go short of signing someone.

Dreadnought
10-30-2009, 01:36 PM
Anything would be better than continually trying to use Moreno as a short yardage back. Well, except using Lamont Jordan in any capacity at all.

Requiem / The Dagda
10-30-2009, 01:37 PM
When Moreno is your best option in SYS, I think it is quite obvious why they use him.

Dreadnought
10-30-2009, 01:39 PM
When Moreno is your best option in SYS, I think it is quite obvious why they use him.

Except that he's not good at it. He's been OK for us, no question, but nothing more than that really. Buckalter OTOH has been brilliant. Either he or Hillis would be a HUGE upgrade for short yardage situations, and both are better receivers as well.

broncofaninfla
10-30-2009, 01:40 PM
I'm thinking since McD likes to play tough, hard nose football he'll go with a power package of Larsen and Hillis similar to the Hochstien/Hillis combo hopefully with better results.

T.K.O.
10-30-2009, 01:43 PM
hillis will likely be used more in those situations if larsen stays healthy allso the season in young and bucky coming back should help minimize 3rd and short situations,the guy has been awesome !

broncofaninfla
10-30-2009, 01:44 PM
When Moreno is your best option in SYS, I think it is quite obvious why they use him.

I'd take Buck over Moreno any day...

topscribe
10-30-2009, 01:49 PM
Except that he's not good at it. He's been OK for us, no question, but nothing more than that really. Buckalter OTOH has been brilliant. Either he or Hillis would be a HUGE upgrade for short yardage situations, and both are better receivers as well.

So far, nobody's been very good at it. But I believe KM has a little more power
than Buck. They just need a crease . . . of which there has been a dearth lately.
In addition to possibly a good, healthy FB (I don't know whether Larsen is the
answer there), I wonder whether they need to run somebody in for Hamilton in
short yardage situations. His 285 lbs. next to Wiegmann's 285 lbs. doesn't seem
a good combination there.

Maybe I'm all wet, I dunno . . . :confused:

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T.K.O.
10-30-2009, 01:51 PM
I'd take Buck over Moreno any day...

agreed buck has been fantastic....however we have to remember moreno has been playing pro football for 6 weeks and was injured for part of that time.
he seems to be getting more comfortable with the speed of the game every week,i like his chances of proving worthy of the #12 pick at this point.
i think the smartest aproach is to use both to keep them fresh and poundin' on unsuspecting defenses !
were gonna need a great running game to go deep this year:salute:

broncofaninfla
10-30-2009, 01:52 PM
So far, nobody's been very good at it. But I believe KO has a little more power
than Buck. They just need a crease . . . of which there has been a dearth lately.
In addition to possibly a good, healthy FB (I don't know whether Larsen is the
answer there), I wonder whether they need to run somebody in for Hamilton in
short yardage situations. His 285 lbs. next to Wiegmann's 285 lbs. doesn't seem
a good combination there.

Maybe I'm all wet, I dunno . . . :confused:

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No doubt about it, the Oline is losing this battle.

underrated29
10-30-2009, 02:01 PM
First and foremost its the play calling. I know you have all heard me say it. Because i say it each week.

The stupid guard pull/trap play does not work. Its too slow to develop its predictable.

I can gurantee that we will not run it again in short yardage. So thats one reason why we will succeed in SYS.

Also- because spence is healthy again, i think we can use hillis a little more as we will now have to healthy FB, we dont have to worry about not having one if there is an injury.


First and foremost is scheme change- which will be FIXED!
second is health- so i presume that we will use the dump truck a bit more.

rationalfan
10-30-2009, 02:19 PM
Anything would be better than continually trying to use Moreno as a short yardage back. Well, except using Lamont Jordan in any capacity at all.

sorry to burst some fanboy bubbles, but jordan's looked more capable on the field this year than hillis has. jordan's confidence is the exact opposite of hillis' confused state.

honz
10-30-2009, 02:19 PM
Except that he's not good at it. He's been OK for us, no question, but nothing more than that really. Buckalter OTOH has been brilliant. Either he or Hillis would be a HUGE upgrade for short yardage situations, and both are better receivers as well.

I'm sorry Dread, but Bucky would definitely not be an upgrade in short yardage situations. Bucky's game is not picking up the tough yards inside and Hillis is a hack this year. Also, I'm not sure why you think they are both better receivers than Moreno. Moreno has been very good catching the ball and his only drop was against SD when the ball was over his head and he missed it. I'd say they are all excellent receiving backs.

Moreno has actually done pretty well for us in short yardage situations...falling forward for the extra yard after contact, jumping over the top for the 1st, slipping through small holes to pick up the yardage...the times he has failed is when he gets stuffed before reaching the line of scrimmage by a fat whale like Wilfork as Hamilton or Weigmann get blown off the line.

Our blocking up front is the problem in short yardage situations just like it has been for several years now...it's what happens when you have lightweights at C and G. I like Hamilton and Weigmann a lot...they do a lot of things very well, but winning the battle in short yardage runnign situations is not one of them.

TXBRONC
10-30-2009, 02:26 PM
Using Larsen and Hillis as short yardage package is good idea in my opinion but it that wont solve the problem if the guys up front can't get good push. That seems to be the biggest issue with our short yardage package as of right now.

slim
10-30-2009, 02:28 PM
Larsen will bring the pain and Hillis will shine.

That is really the only option at this point.

LRtagger
10-30-2009, 02:34 PM
Moreno isnt the problem in SYS...its our interior lineman...they arent big enough to get the push necessary to create yardage with 9 defenders on the LOS.

I wish we would run more off-tackle plays since that is where our strongest OLmen are....but I trust McD has a reason to call the plays he calls and knows what he's doing.

TXBRONC
10-30-2009, 03:41 PM
Moreno isnt the problem in SYS...its our interior lineman...they arent big enough to get the push necessary to create yardage with 9 defenders on the LOS.

I wish we would run more off-tackle plays since that is where our strongest OLmen are....but I trust McD has a reason to call the plays he calls and knows what he's doing.

Moreno's rushing touchdown cam off tackle if I recall correctly. It's wasn't exactly goal to go but I think it was somewhere between the 5 and the 10 yard line.

Dreadnought
10-30-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm sorry Dread, but Bucky would definitely not be an upgrade in short yardage situations. Bucky's game is not picking up the tough yards inside and Hillis is a hack this year. Also, I'm not sure why you think they are both better receivers than Moreno. Moreno has been very good catching the ball and his only drop was against SD when the ball was over his head and he missed it. I'd say they are all excellent receiving backs.

Moreno has actually done pretty well for us in short yardage situations...falling forward for the extra yard after contact, jumping over the top for the 1st, slipping through small holes to pick up the yardage...the times he has failed is when he gets stuffed before reaching the line of scrimmage by a fat whale like Wilfork as Hamilton or Weigmann get blown off the line.

Our blocking up front is the problem in short yardage situations just like it has been for several years now...it's what happens when you have lightweights at C and G. I like Hamilton and Weigmann a lot...they do a lot of things very well, but winning the battle in short yardage runnign situations is not one of them.

No argument that Buck isn't ideal, nor that the interior O-line has been getting it done in short yardage - nor that pretty much any human being born will ever run over Vince Wilfork. As far as Huillis being a better receiver rewatch his 2008 games and I think it becomes self evident. Thats not to say Moreno isn't decent in that role, simply that Hillis is much better. Hillis also proved a superb short yardage guy in '08 - so its not just speculation. He's already demonstrated his proficiency there. Moreno has some area where he's a better option himself; more speed, breakaway potential, what have you - and no, I don't mean he's easy to bring down either

Slick
10-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Quit trying to run up the gut and run behind Clady. Don't pull, don't trap, line up Graham beside him and run left.

Tned
10-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Every Friday morning (5:45 am mountain time, usually replayed around 7:35 mountain time), McDaniels is on Sirius NFL Radio.

This morning, he was talking about what they did during the bye week. One of the things he said they did was evaluate things that hadn't been working in the first six weeks. He said that when you have tried something in two or three games, and still haven't gotten it to work, it's time to say "rather than try and fix it, let's pull it out of the play calling". He went on to say, that this could be a kick coverage, defensive call or offensive call, but during the bye they removed some things that hadn't worked in the first 6 weeks.

When I heard this, I immediately thought about the short yardage plays (goal line and other short yardage) that haven't been successful. I have no idea if this was one of the areas, but if we see him making different goal line calls, it might be a good indication.

NightTrainLayne
10-30-2009, 04:24 PM
Every Friday morning (5:45 am mountain time, usually replayed around 7:35 mountain time), McDaniels is on Sirius NFL Radio.

This morning, he was talking about what they did during the bye week. One of the things he said they did was evaluate things that hadn't been working in the first six weeks. He said that when you have tried something in two or three games, and still haven't gotten it to work, it's time to say "rather than try and fix it, let's pull it out of the play calling". He went on to say, that this could be a kick coverage, defensive call or offensive call, but during the bye they removed some things that hadn't worked in the first 6 weeks.

When I heard this, I immediately thought about the short yardage plays (goal line and other short yardage) that haven't been successful. I have no idea if this was one of the areas, but if we see him making different goal line calls, it might be a good indication.

I always miss this. . .only caught him once this season after Week 1. The early one is too early, and the late one is just after I open up the office.

Thanks for sharing.

Reidman
10-30-2009, 05:02 PM
Not really pertaining to short yardage situations but I'd like to see some bootlegs. Is Orton incapable of rolling out of the pocket on play action..? Doesn't seem like I've seen any of that this year... great at catching defenses off guard and usually produces big plays either to the RB in the flat or downfield... Cutler ran play action every other play it seemed like...I know, apples to oranges but it'd still be nice to see once in a while...

TXBRONC
10-30-2009, 05:11 PM
Not really pertaining to short yardage situations but I'd like to see some bootlegs. Is Orton incapable of rolling out of the pocket on play action..? Doesn't seem like I've seen any of that this year... great at catching defenses off guard and usually produces big plays either to the RB in the flat or downfield... Cutler ran play action every other play it seemed like...I know, apples to oranges but it'd still be nice to see once in a while...

It may be something that Orton isn't comfortable doing. :whoknows:

Dreadnought
10-30-2009, 05:15 PM
It may be something that Orton isn't comfortable doing. :whoknows:

Inclined to agree. Orton has passed well - better than i thought he would - but he's awfully awkward looking when he's on the move, and he often looks downright slow. I don't mind much, in that I am not a fan of running QB's, but it does look like a limitation.

LRtagger
10-30-2009, 05:22 PM
If Orton doesn't feel comfortable throwing on the run, they could still run a play action pass where Orton sits and dumps it off to a TE or a lone WR running a quick slant. I'm just not sure why we don't try something else besides HB Dive out of the 3-TE set.

TXBRONC
10-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Inclined to agree. Orton has passed well - better than i thought he would - but he's awfully awkward looking when he's on the move, and he often looks downright slow. I don't mind much, in that I am not a fan of running QB's, but it does look like a limitation.

He's definitely a conventional drop back passer.

dogfish
10-30-2009, 07:20 PM
we'll see about the rest of this year, but you can bet your ass it will be addressed in the offseason by rebuilding the interior O-line with a new OLG who's more suited to mcdaniels' scheme, and possibly a center as well. . . it's also possible that seth olsen could contend for some playing time at some point this year. . . .

honz
10-30-2009, 07:35 PM
We have run the PA Boot a couple of times and it has been rather successful if I recall correctly. Orton has show the ability to move outside the pocket and still throw accurately...whether off of PA or just scrambling...so I don't think that he isn't capable of throwing on the run. I just don't think it is a big part of McD's offense. We've run quite a bit of PA, but Orton usually stays in the pocket. Brady rarely steps out of the pocket and I don't eve recall NE running many bootlegs with the athletic Cassel under center.

Also, now that I think about it we ran a PA Boot on 4th and 1 against the Raiders late in the 4th Q when the game was already decided and we were just trying to run out the clock. Orton ended up throwing a dime to Marshall who had tight coverage from Nhamdi.

TXBRONC
10-30-2009, 08:07 PM
we'll see about the rest of this year, but you can bet your ass it will be addressed in the offseason by rebuilding the interior O-line with a new OLG who's more suited to mcdaniels' scheme, and possibly a center as well. . . it's also possible that seth olsen could contend for some playing time at some point this year. . . .

I like Ben Hamilton but since McDaniels is going with a power running game where offensive line is suppose to punch holes in the defense he doesn't fit real well.

red98
10-30-2009, 08:41 PM
I like Ben Hamilton but since McDaniels is going with a power running game where offensive line is suppose to punch holes in the defense he doesn't fit real well.

In the off-season he said he'd use some of both blocking schemes as the game plan dictates.

We know Ben can get it done in the Zone but whatever McKid comes up with this week, (blocking scheme, play call, FB, 2TE, run out the shotgun, etc.)
I think it comes down to what you and others have said, the interior line is not executing well on run plays.


I think Josh learned his lesson when it comes to the power running game after that SB loss. I'm talking the kinda of running game where you need 2yds, the D knows you're gonna run, and you still get 5yds on the play.


We saw it last year when he had the Pats run the ball down the Broncos throat negating our pass rush which sacked his QB 6 times or something.


McKid designs a fancy passing attack, real nice, ingenious really. But the thing I was really looking toward from him is that real physical running game.


I'm just dying to see a game where we have those 2nd half drives where we run on like 8 of 9 plays for a TD.

The Ravens on the road probably isn't the place for it but I'm hoping after beating up on their corners for 2 qtrs Kyle will be handing off a lot to end the game.

(Sorry for the long post, I'm excited for this game, 2 weeks since Broncos!!)

BroncoInSkinland
10-30-2009, 10:08 PM
I went with play action pass as it really puts Orton's strengths in the spotlight. I think Orton + Knowshon would be able to sell the PA very well especially considering Knowshon's two handed carrying style since the recent fumble. Orton's quick decision making capabilities and good short ball accuracy would seem to be a natural fit, and it is possible they were leery of it at the start of the season as Orton familiarized himself with teammates, and as his finger healed. Following the bye, with more time for the finger to heal, and a little more practice possibly focusing on SYS seems to me to be a likely time to add this to the arsenal. I don't think of as a long term solution with Josh liking to keep the opponent guessing, and the nature of PA, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it for a week or two.

Day1BroncoFan
10-30-2009, 10:49 PM
I voted for Spencer Larsen, because his balls are big enough to jump past that 1st down marker all by themselves. :salute:

:shocked:

BroncoTech
10-30-2009, 11:42 PM
I think that all we've shown is smash it up the gut every time in short yard situations. Well people mention a blocking back in there for a running back. But don't have him block, hand it to him on the quick hitter and people might try to avoid him. It's a good play for short yardage we need to run it.

Another good one is somebody mentioned running behind Clady and Graham. Well I say line Clady up as tackle eligible and toss it to him. Nothing terrorizes a defense like a little treachery when yards are tight.

CrazyHorse
10-31-2009, 12:35 AM
Hopefully not Lament Jordan.

TXBRONC
10-31-2009, 07:59 AM
I voted for Spencer Larsen, because his balls are big enough to jump past that 1st down marker all by themselves. :salute:

I like talking with you Girler but how's a guy suppose to respond to this post? :tsk: :lol:

horsepig
10-31-2009, 10:09 AM
I've reviewed a number of SY plays and a common theme has Weigman and/or Hamilton getting bulled about 2 feet into the backfield. This tells me we need to mix it up a little. Hell, don't stop with Hillis and Larsen together, put Hochstein in there too and run student body wide plays.

Lonestar
10-31-2009, 11:37 AM
Our light in the loafers Oline on the past has caused us a lot of short yardage issues. Even tho we have beefed it up with new OT's and kuper, the weak spot has been for years hamilton while he was great in the ZBS he simoly is not nasty or strong enough to either move the DL backwards on run plays or not be pushed into the pocket on pass plays. He needs to be replaced soon if not over the bye. As far as casey. I almost think he needs to go also but him and hamilton together are a sack or a stuffed play waiting to happen.

We have the OT's and blocking TE's just weak inside.



Sent via Blackberry by altell.

Day1BroncoFan
10-31-2009, 07:12 PM
Um, you can say "no kidding! He's got big hairy brass ones!" Or something like that??? :noidea:

:shocked:

girler
10-31-2009, 07:13 PM
:shocked:

No??? :confused: I don't know the protocol for talking about balls with men. Men seem to talk about balls. And women talk about boobs with men... I'm not quite sure why men can't talk about balls with women...

Tned
10-31-2009, 07:15 PM
Come on this isn't the lounge, this is BRONCOS TALK. Let's leave the talk of hairy balls and boobs in the lounge please.

Thx

Day1BroncoFan
10-31-2009, 07:17 PM
No??? :confused: I don't know the protocol for talking about balls with men. Men seem to talk about balls. And women talk about boobs with men... I'm not quite sure why men can't talk about balls with women...

:listen: You can in the lounge my dear girler. :D

girler
10-31-2009, 07:18 PM
Oh woops. I'm colorblind this week. Sorry.