What happened to Ravage?

[Northman]

Ever since we started beating teams like Dallas, NE, and SD i havent seen him around. I miss him.

[Jaws]

He's playing me in two weeks time in a fantasy football league on the other board.
Naturally, he's had to take some time off to prepare ;)

[Shazam!]

He's been hospitalized for an eating disorder. All that crow and humble pie is not good for you.

[LRtagger]

I was wondering the same thing....Link too

[honz]

What happened to Lex and his boy Steve Spagnolio!?!?

[BroncoWave]

What happened to Lex and his boy Steve Spagnolio!?!?

Lex was permabanned.

[Northman]

I was wondering the same thing....Link too


Bummer. I wanted to celebrate with them on here for the great 6-0 start.

[BroncoBJ]

:lol: .. What happened to Broncos Mtn Man as well? ... He was here in preseason when we were losing games and looking out of sinc. Then we started winning games and I havn't seen him since :eek:

[honz]

:lol: .. What happened to Broncos Mtn Man as well? ... He was here in preseason when we were losing games and looking out of sinc. Then we started winning games and I havn't seen him since :eek:

I wonder if he wants his season tickets back???

[BroncoBJ]

I wonder if he wants his season tickets back???

:lol: I know. He should have got rid of them a few years ago. He saw mediocre football for 3 years in a row. And then gives them away. And now hes missing out on Elite football. :fight:

This Mickey Mouse guy isn't too bad. :lol:

[LRtagger]

ohhh yea almost forgot about Mtn Man


:coffee:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Don't worry fellas, I'm still here. I was just as much a McDaniels/Orton skeptic as Ravage. I'll happily eat my crow... fire away!

[Poet]

Mtn Man sold his tickets because of financial hardship so I won't knock him for that but I will knock him and the the rest of the bitter McDaniel haters for being......what's the term...well that would be a personal attack.

But, if you're known as a regular poster here and you can't come back when you're team's winning you are teh failz.

[honz]

Mtn Man sold his tickets because of financial hardship so I won't knock him for that but I will knock him and the the rest of the bitter McDaniel haters for being......what's the term...well that would be a personal attack.

But, if you're known as a regular poster here and you can't come back when you're team's winning you are teh failz.
I thought he gave them up because he was so disgusted with McD and Bowlen...if it was for financial reasons I apologize. Either way, he was a serious hater there for a good while so the point still stands.

[Poet]

I thought he gave them up because he was so disgusted with McD and Bowlen...if it was for financial reasons I apologize. Either way, he was a serious hater there for a good while so the point still stands.

He did have a quote that "The Cutler decision made it easier" but I couldn't tell you what the entire deal was because I don't know. In either situation he is probably happy about the team right now, so you can just say "I told you so".

[LRtagger]

I thought he gave them up because he was so disgusted with McD and Bowlen...if it was for financial reasons I apologize. Either way, he was a serious hater there for a good while so the point still stands.

He said the economy was tough on him, but the real reason he was selling was "because Bowlen is doing his best Al Davis impersonation"

He also took a crack at Orton in his FS thread.

[Poet]

He said the economy was tough on him, but the real reason he was selling was "because Bowlen is doing his best Al Davis impersonation"

He also took a crack at Orton in his FS thread.

I missed that one. It doesn't matter. Some fans are better fans than others.

[WTE]

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/airline-business/Yawn.jpg

[LoyalSoldier]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.

[WTE]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.


It should be deleted immediately by the Mods!!

That's what happens in the Smack Forum!!

Zero tolerance.....right????

[slim]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.

A baby say's what?

[BroncoWave]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.

If someone is gonna talk crap all offseason about how bad we are going to suck, and then not come man up when they are wrong, then they deserve all the crap they get.

[slim]

If someone is gonna talk crap all offseason about how bad we are going to suck, and then not come man up when they are wrong, then they deserve all the crap they get.

Well said, Red.

[LRtagger]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.

Please quote a single borderline personal attack in this thread.

TIA

[rcsodak]

Please quote a single borderline personal attack in this thread.

TIA

Yeah, right! That'd be like asking Robin to rat out Batman......lol

Seems 'karma' hits certain people harder than others......



......for some it's just easier to hide out in the shadows...



...know-what-I-mean-vern? :rolleyes:


But I guaran-damn-tee-ya.....Orton hiccups, or McD makes an inadvertant call, that lead up to a loss (or 2) and they'll be popping their heads back in here tooting their horns!

Better save this thread for posterity. :lol:

[Northman]

Wow classy guys......

Borderline personal attacks.


Ive gone back and read through the two pages and i see no personal attacks.

[Nomad]

I don't find this to be personal attacks. Who knows how the season will end (BRONCOS may only win 2 more games), but McDaniels and Orton have come into the BRONCOS and played beyond most expectations. Many posters, especially the ones called out, went off how this team would suck, the offense, QB, defense....blah, blah blah, and would derail many threads trying to prove something before the season even started. There's a few here whining about this thread that fall in with those guys. If you're too prideful and a know-it-all to say you're wrong, then at least show up to give praises to the BRONCOS for what they have done especially since some were so headstrong about this team being the pit of the NFL!!

[LoyalSoldier]

Um the fact you guys are posting a topic calling out posters in the BRONCOS TALK forum.

You are singling out a posters for their views before the season started (and let's face it we had an offseason of turbulence)

I know I wouldn't be calling out Top specifically if Orton turned out to be a bum just because he backed him.

So what if they had a differing view? Why bring is up in this fashion? That is why I said boardline because you are targeting individuals in a place that it doesn't belong.

[Northman]

I don't find this to be personal attacks. Who knows how the season will end (BRONCOS may only win 2 more games), but McDaniels and Orton have come into the BRONCOS and played beyond most expectations. Many posters, especially the ones called out, went off how this team would suck, the offense, QB, defense....blah, blah blah, and would derail many threads trying to prove something before the season even started. There's a few here whining about this thread that fall in with those guys. If you're too prideful and a know-it-all to say you're wrong, then at least show up to give praises to the BRONCOS for what they have done especially since some were so headstrong about this team being the pit of the NFL!!


Yea, exactly.

So far ive seen maybe a couple of people who really trashed this team in the offseason come out and say they were wrong or should of given him a real chance to see what can be done. But there are still a handful of individuals out there who wont come back and take their medicine. And that really only leads me to believe a couple of things.

1) They were trolls to begin with. Now with Ravage i know Top knows him from Broncos Country so im guessing he is true blue and orange. However, its still tacky not to come back and at least say something. If Denver starts going on a losing skid and he shows up i wont have any respect for him as a person. Not that he or anyone else in this club would care but i would definitely throw him on ignore as they just arent man enough to admit when they are wrong. Simple as that.

2) They are too embarrassed. But ive seen guys like Superchop come out and least take his lumps. Everyone had some skepticism before the season started but there were those few who had already thrown in the towel which was just silly to a lot of us because we hadnt seen anything on the field yet. Pre-season has never equated to regular season play.

But no one has attacked anybody in this thread. I just find it funny that when the team is winning the ones who were declaring failure are nowhere to be found.

[Northman]

Why bring is up in this fashion?


If your going to make statements i would like for those to either defend them or at least comment on their thoughts now. If this team was 0-6 and you dont think they would be doing the same thing your kidding yourself.

[Dirk]

I was raised to always say I was sorry when wrong and admit when I was wrong. From early childhood my mom told me it takes a big man to admit his mistakes.

So it comes easy to me to do so. Some people have a hard time doing that. I don't fault them for it. They will come around, they are still Broncos fans.

I had my doubts in the offseason too. Especially with the whole "you know who" situation. And the picking of Alonso. But I admitted that I was wrong about Alonso being a true baller.

Cut some slack and remember they are still a part of the Broncos fold. (even if they are lurking in the darkness)

[Tned]

If someone is gonna talk crap all offseason about how bad we are going to suck, and then not come man up when they are wrong, then they deserve all the crap they get.

I don't know about the others, but Mtnman is not 'afraid' to show up because the team is doing well.

There are other reasons he isn't posting on here, and it has nothing to do with hiding because the team is doing well.

[BroncoWave]

I don't know about the others, but Mtnman is not 'afraid' to show up because the team is doing well.

There are other reasons he isn't posting on here, and it has nothing to do with hiding because the team is doing well.

Just for the record, I should reiterate that I didn't call out any particular poster in my post.

[Poet]

I don't know about the others, but Mtnman is not 'afraid' to show up because the team is doing well.

There are other reasons he isn't posting on here, and it has nothing to do with hiding because the team is doing well.

Must...refrain...from...zinger....must...not....ma ke mod's...lives...harder..

[Cugel]

Mtn Man sold his tickets because of financial hardship so I won't knock him for that but I will knock him and the the rest of the bitter McDaniel haters for being......what's the term...well that would be a personal attack.

But, if you're known as a regular poster here and you can't come back when you're team's winning you are teh failz.

Personally, I'm STILL not sold on Kyle Orton as the long-term answer. I remember Brian Griese all too well.

If Orton can play TWO seasons in a row at the same level he has the first six games, THEN maybe I'll believe this team can with a SB with him at QB. But, not until then.

Of course, the Broncos could win a championship THIS year IF the defense continues to hold everybody to 11 ppg. The 2000 Ravens gave up 10.3 and the 2002 Bucs 12.4 and those teams won with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson at QB!

And Orton is certainly playing better than Trent Dilfer! (Dilfer had almost as many INTs as TDs).

But, it's just too tough for a defense to be really dominating for more than 1 year. The Ravens never went back to the SB remember. And they were never as dominating as they were that year (Goose Siragusa retired).

But, the same thing will happen to the Broncos soon. How long can Brian Dawkins continue to play at this level? He's just turned 36. That's pretty OLD for the NFL. He might hang around for a season or two more, but when your skill goes in the NFL, it goes fast.

One season, Al Wilson was dominating and went to the pro-bowl, the next he wasn't even good. Injuries and age catch up with you.

And without Dawkins this defense is pretty mediocre. He's simply an exceptional player -- as the Eagirls are finding out this season! Their defense isn't nearly as good this season without him.

[Poet]

I don't think Orton is going to consistently play this well, I agree with you. But he was definitely much better than what he was given credit for in Chicago (tons of factors there).

Time will tell, but this thread just serves as a funny reminder for a lot of the posters who didn't think the sky had fallen and blown up the world.

Good post.

[LRtagger]

Of course Orton is going to have bad games here and there...he obviously can't play how he has so far this year every game for the rest of his career....but as long as he is not consistently bad, this team can win a lot of games with him behind center.

Will we be a perrenial super bowl team? Who knows, but I can assure you that will not be determined by Kyle Orton. It will be an entire team effort. I mean Peyton Manning is an MVP candidate EVERY year and the Colts have one SB to show for it out of Peyton's 9 Pro Bowl seasons. Point being, Kyle doesn't need to be elite for this team to be a contender every year. He just needs to not be consistently bad....which is something I think he has proven he can do....especially considering he's only been in this system for a few months. I think he will only get better - well, I hope he will only get better.

[Ravage!!!]

Oh brother. You guys are laughable. Please excuse me for having a life outside of posting on a message board and not coming back here to let you all know the time-table of my r/t schedule. I"ll be sure to start posting any updated lapses I may have to make from visiting the message boards across the net.

As far as eating crow goes... well... Orton has played better than anyone expected. Most on this board were talking about how the new rookie was playing better .. OR... how Simms should be the starter. So yeah.. I think I can say that Orton's play has really surprised me... kinda

I've done some research and found that over Ortons starting career (excluding games where he came in late or left early... those weren't counted).. he's played on a team that the defense has allowed 10 points in the second half 13 times. Of those 13 times where the opposing team has put up a whopping TD and a FG in the entire third and fourth quarters of play.... Orton has lost 10. Lost 10 out of 13.

Just for comparisons... Grossman on the '06 super bowl team... allowed 10 points (this is a defense that was considered to be a GREAT defense, mind you) in the second half 9 times in the ONE season (counting playoffs and Super BOwl). Rex Grossman, with roughly the same team, won 7 of the 9 (one win was in the playoffs, one loss was the Super Bowl).

Just as our defense has shown... if you keep the games close, you always has a chance to win... even off lucky deflections off defenders hands. Losing games when the opposing team scores only 10, means the Orton led offenses have kept opposing teams, close.

For the record... I never said I thought McDaniels was a bad coach. I was happy he was hired WHEN we hired him. I DID say that I felt he handled the Cutler situations badly.. and STILL believe that (still can't believe some of you actually believe he only TOOK a phone call on that trade, its hilarious). I'm THRILLED how our defense has stood up so far, who coudln't be??? But who here really this kind of production coming from the defensive side of the ball?? No one. No one that doesn't predict a 16-0 season every year, anyway ( Those guys just don't count).

So am I eating crow on the result of our season so far? Yes.. that I am. We definitely have won more games so far than I had guessed. I'm sure I was in the 'minority' on that. I guess I should somehow feel ashamed of my low-win prediction?

I'm thrilled.. THRILLED with how this team has played so far. I just don't recognize our defense and can't be happier. But even Jake Plummer was winning when our defense played WELL.. not so much when it didn't. So yes, I'm enjoying our defensive play. But at the same time see that we have a win from a VERY lucky catch/TD... a TD at the end of the game that SHOULD have been an INT (Brandon not only saved the INT, but turned it into a game winning TD)... and punt returns for TDs (although I will say we have NO idea how our offensive drives would have ended if we didn't return for the TDs fast, so I'm certainly not taking away from our team on those). RIght now our defense is winning games. I love that. Hasn't happened in a LONG time, but I'm also one that just wonders how much that luck will hold on for.

How long will Lucky deflections, catchers OVER the intercepting defender.. and punt returns for TDs last? How long can we REALLY hold offenses to no points in the second half? I don't know. I'm enjoying that right now, like crazy, and love how the team is playing. But it doesn't mean I don't see that things have just 'bounced' our way.

So yes... Orton is playing good football, but I still know our offense would be better with previous QBs here (yes I know, how do you do better than 6-0.. blah blah blah). I know we will never have Cutler back, and thats very well accepted here.. but that doesn't mean I don't hope we search for that kind of TALENT again.. soon. Yes our defense is making it easy for our offense, right now. Thats awesome... but look how quickly we were panicking the MOMENT our 36 yr old safety got hurt on MNF.

I'm thrilled with 6-0, and will be thrilled with 7-0 or 6-1 (either way, I'm thrilled)..... its nice to hold the head up high.. but I STILL shake my head when I have to admit our QB is 'Kyle Orton'....but thats just me. I find him to be a guy that can win as long as the opposing offenses don't score :lol:

So if thats the crow you wanted to see me eat.. well.. there you go :beer:


( now please excuse me, north... as I do have to get back to work. Opening up a business is tough enough right now..but when you can't hire employees yet... handling the everyday process is busy busy..especially when business is picking up fast. I appreciate the thread. Love how people think you need to post on a MB to prove your 'fanhood'..... Go Broncs )

[claymore]

Welcome back Ravage.

[topscribe]

Oh brother. You guys are laughable. Please excuse me for having a life outside of posting on a message board and not coming back here to let you all know the time-table of my r/t schedule. I"ll be sure to start posting any updated lapses I may have to make from visiting the message boards across the net.

As far as eating crow goes... well... Orton has played better than anyone expected. Most on this board were talking about how the new rookie was playing better .. OR... how Simms should be the starter. So yeah.. I think I can say that Orton's play has really surprised me... kinda

I've done some research and found that over Ortons starting career (excluding games where he came in late or left early... those weren't counted).. he's played on a team that the defense has allowed 10 points in the second half 13 times. Of those 13 times where the opposing team has put up a whopping TD and a FG in the entire third and fourth quarters of play.... Orton has lost 10. Lost 10 out of 13.

Just for comparisons... Grossman on the '06 super bowl team... allowed 10 points (this is a defense that was considered to be a GREAT defense, mind you) in the second half 9 times in the ONE season (counting playoffs and Super BOwl). Rex Grossman, with roughly the same team, won 7 of the 9 (one win was in the playoffs, one loss was the Super Bowl).

Just as our defense has shown... if you keep the games close, you always has a chance to win... even off lucky deflections off defenders hands. Losing games when the opposing team scores only 10, means the Orton led offenses have kept opposing teams, close.

For the record... I never said I thought McDaniels was a bad coach. I was happy he was hired WHEN we hired him. I DID say that I felt he handled the Cutler situations badly.. and STILL believe that (still can't believe some of you actually believe he only TOOK a phone call on that trade, its hilarious). I'm THRILLED how our defense has stood up so far, who coudln't be??? But who here really this kind of production coming from the defensive side of the ball?? No one. No one that doesn't predict a 16-0 season every year, anyway ( Those guys just don't count).

So am I eating crow on the result of our season so far? Yes.. that I am. We definitely have won more games so far than I had guessed. I'm sure I was in the 'minority' on that. I guess I should somehow feel ashamed of my low-win prediction?

I'm thrilled.. THRILLED with how this team has played so far. I just don't recognize our defense and can't be happier. But even Jake Plummer was winning when our defense played WELL.. not so much when it didn't. So yes, I'm enjoying our defensive play. But at the same time see that we have a win from a VERY lucky catch/TD... a TD at the end of the game that SHOULD have been an INT (Brandon not only saved the INT, but turned it into a game winning TD)... and punt returns for TDs (although I will say we have NO idea how our offensive drives would have ended if we didn't return for the TDs fast, so I'm certainly not taking away from our team on those). RIght now our defense is winning games. I love that. Hasn't happened in a LONG time, but I'm also one that just wonders how much that luck will hold on for.

How long will Lucky deflections, catchers OVER the intercepting defender.. and punt returns for TDs last? How long can we REALLY hold offenses to no points in the second half? I don't know. I'm enjoying that right now, like crazy, and love how the team is playing. But it doesn't mean I don't see that things have just 'bounced' our way.

So yes... Orton is playing good football, but I still know our offense would be better with previous QBs here (yes I know, how do you do better than 6-0.. blah blah blah). I know we will never have Cutler back, and thats very well accepted here.. but that doesn't mean I don't hope we search for that kind of TALENT again.. soon. Yes our defense is making it easy for our offense, right now. Thats awesome... but look how quickly we were panicking the MOMENT our 36 yr old safety got hurt on MNF.

I'm thrilled with 6-0, and will be thrilled with 7-0 or 6-1 (either way, I'm thrilled)..... its nice to hold the head up high.. but I STILL shake my head when I have to admit our QB is 'Kyle Orton'....but thats just me. I find him to be a guy that can win as long as the opposing offenses don't score :lol:

So if thats the crow you wanted to see me eat.. well.. there you go :beer:


( now please excuse me, north... as I do have to get back to work. Opening up a business is tough enough right now..but when you can't hire employees yet... handling the everyday process is busy busy..especially when business is picking up fast. I appreciate the thread. Love how people think you need to post on a MB to prove your 'fanhood'..... Go Broncs )

Nice left-handed compliment to Orton, Rav. :lol:

Oh well . . . you know I love ya, so dinner's on me. Here you go:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Goofies/CrowEntree.jpg

-----

[Poet]

Ravage has some pride issues.

[Lonestar]

I don't think Orton is going to consistently play this well, I agree with you. But he was definitely much better than what he was given credit for in Chicago (tons of factors there).

Time will tell, but this thread just serves as a funny reminder for a lot of the posters who didn't think the sky had fallen and blown up the world.

Good post.

If anything KO should continue to get better.

So far this yaer this offense has not played with everyone in sync. BM was not really in the first few games, yes he was playing but still did not GET the playbook.

Same with moreno the other) was gimpy. The oline is really new for this scheme. The only player fully into that scheme was our NE WR FA.

Hillis has not been used and larsen has not yet played a game.

We have lots of pieces to this offense. That have yet to play at 100%.

So I belive KO can indeed play as good if not better down the road I hardly think he has peaked out.


Sent via Blackberry by altell.

[T.K.O.]

"Love how people think you need to post on a MB to prove your 'fanhood'...."


sounds like someone is over-compensating.....fanhood envy perhaps?:listen::lol:

kidding ravage.....just kidding,nice post for the most part. said enough to be right wether the broncos win alot more games or start losing sunday.
lesson learned;)

[Northman]

Oh brother. You guys are laughable. Please excuse me for having a life outside of posting on a message board and not coming back here to let you all know the time-table of my r/t schedule. I"ll be sure to start posting any updated lapses I may have to make from visiting the message boards across the net.

As far as eating crow goes... well... Orton has played better than anyone expected. Most on this board were talking about how the new rookie was playing better .. OR... how Simms should be the starter. So yeah.. I think I can say that Orton's play has really surprised me... kinda

I've done some research and found that over Ortons starting career (excluding games where he came in late or left early... those weren't counted).. he's played on a team that the defense has allowed 10 points in the second half 13 times. Of those 13 times where the opposing team has put up a whopping TD and a FG in the entire third and fourth quarters of play.... Orton has lost 10. Lost 10 out of 13.

Just for comparisons... Grossman on the '06 super bowl team... allowed 10 points (this is a defense that was considered to be a GREAT defense, mind you) in the second half 9 times in the ONE season (counting playoffs and Super BOwl). Rex Grossman, with roughly the same team, won 7 of the 9 (one win was in the playoffs, one loss was the Super Bowl).

Just as our defense has shown... if you keep the games close, you always has a chance to win... even off lucky deflections off defenders hands. Losing games when the opposing team scores only 10, means the Orton led offenses have kept opposing teams, close.

For the record... I never said I thought McDaniels was a bad coach. I was happy he was hired WHEN we hired him. I DID say that I felt he handled the Cutler situations badly.. and STILL believe that (still can't believe some of you actually believe he only TOOK a phone call on that trade, its hilarious). I'm THRILLED how our defense has stood up so far, who coudln't be??? But who here really this kind of production coming from the defensive side of the ball?? No one. No one that doesn't predict a 16-0 season every year, anyway ( Those guys just don't count).

So am I eating crow on the result of our season so far? Yes.. that I am. We definitely have won more games so far than I had guessed. I'm sure I was in the 'minority' on that. I guess I should somehow feel ashamed of my low-win prediction?

I'm thrilled.. THRILLED with how this team has played so far. I just don't recognize our defense and can't be happier. But even Jake Plummer was winning when our defense played WELL.. not so much when it didn't. So yes, I'm enjoying our defensive play. But at the same time see that we have a win from a VERY lucky catch/TD... a TD at the end of the game that SHOULD have been an INT (Brandon not only saved the INT, but turned it into a game winning TD)... and punt returns for TDs (although I will say we have NO idea how our offensive drives would have ended if we didn't return for the TDs fast, so I'm certainly not taking away from our team on those). RIght now our defense is winning games. I love that. Hasn't happened in a LONG time, but I'm also one that just wonders how much that luck will hold on for.

How long will Lucky deflections, catchers OVER the intercepting defender.. and punt returns for TDs last? How long can we REALLY hold offenses to no points in the second half? I don't know. I'm enjoying that right now, like crazy, and love how the team is playing. But it doesn't mean I don't see that things have just 'bounced' our way.

So yes... Orton is playing good football, but I still know our offense would be better with previous QBs here (yes I know, how do you do better than 6-0.. blah blah blah). I know we will never have Cutler back, and thats very well accepted here.. but that doesn't mean I don't hope we search for that kind of TALENT again.. soon. Yes our defense is making it easy for our offense, right now. Thats awesome... but look how quickly we were panicking the MOMENT our 36 yr old safety got hurt on MNF.

I'm thrilled with 6-0, and will be thrilled with 7-0 or 6-1 (either way, I'm thrilled)..... its nice to hold the head up high.. but I STILL shake my head when I have to admit our QB is 'Kyle Orton'....but thats just me. I find him to be a guy that can win as long as the opposing offenses don't score :lol:

So if thats the crow you wanted to see me eat.. well.. there you go :beer:


( now please excuse me, north... as I do have to get back to work. Opening up a business is tough enough right now..but when you can't hire employees yet... handling the everyday process is busy busy..especially when business is picking up fast. I appreciate the thread. Love how people think you need to post on a MB to prove your 'fanhood'..... Go Broncs )


There you are sunshine!!!

I knew you would be around you scary bitch. :D

Hope the business is going well. :salute:

[honz]

I don't get why people think that Orton will actually regress a bit from his stellar play through six games. He has proven that he can read the defense consistently, he can make all the throws (maybe not with as much velocity as Cutler or Favre, but his arm strength is on par with Manning and Brady), he can fit the ball into tight windows, he is disciplined enough to take what the defense gives him and throw the ball away when he needs to, he is a proven leader of men (backed up by what his Chicago and Denver teammates say about him), and he has not even been in this system for half a season yet.

Call me crazy, but I see some upside here...

[Northman]

I don't get why people think that Orton will actually regress a bit from his stellar play through six games. He has proven that he can read the defense consistently, he can make all the throws (maybe not with as much velocity as Cutler or Favre, but his arm strength is on par with Manning and Brady), he can fit the ball into tight windows, he is disciplined enough to take what the defense gives him and throw the ball away when he needs to, he is a proven leader of men (backed up by what his Chicago and Denver teammates say about him), and he has not even been in this system for half a season yet.

Call me crazy, but I see some upside here...


I agree. All he needs is confidence from the coaches on down to the fans including himself. He doesnt have to be Elway. But he has the tools necessary to help this team win ballgames.

[honz]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention he is only 25 and this is only his 3rd season as a starting QB in the NFL.

[slim]

I don't get why people think that Orton will actually regress a bit from his stellar play through six games. He has proven that he can read the defense consistently, he can make all the throws (maybe not with as much velocity as Cutler or Favre, but his arm strength is on par with Manning and Brady), he can fit the ball into tight windows, he is disciplined enough to take what the defense gives him and throw the ball away when he needs to, he is a proven leader of men (backed up by what his Chicago and Denver teammates say about him), and he has not even been in this system for half a season yet.

Call me crazy, but I see some upside here...

Exactly right.

Another thing people don't seem to realize is that Orton has only started 39 games in his career (roughly 2.5 seasons)...it is usually around that point (3-4 years of starting expierence) that most QBs start to realize their full potential.

Edit: Honz beat me too it...sly dog, you.

[topscribe]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention he is only 25 and this is only his 3rd season as a starting QB in the NFL.


Exactly right.

Another thing people don't seem to realize is that Orton has only started 39 games in his career (roughly 2.5 seasons)...it is usually around that point (3-4 years of starting expierence) that most QBs start to realize their full potential.

Edit: Honz beat me too it...sly dog, you.

I was pointing that out last spring . . . :woot:

-----

[BCJ]

What happened to Lex and his boy Steve Spagnolio!?!?

who cares? Actually he is at the mane. Why do you think I am spending so much time over here? lol

[Ravage!!!]

I know the first posts I post since being away are about Orton, as though I'm trying to be 'anti-Orton' .. and I'm not.... truly.

But since my stance was so strong on this position before the season started, I"ll stick with it... I suppose.

I know some of you want to believe that Orton has all the high 'potential' since he's young and young in the NFL. But lets be honest... he doesn't. This is why EVERY GM in the NFL, and every coach (yes every, if they were given the same choices of players) would be willing to trade AWAY an Orton in order to GAIN other players that were once here.

There is a reason that guys like Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, and Jim McMahon were able to win when defenses didn't allow the other team to score many points. You are ALWAYS in the game. You are never out of it, and thus ANY kind of lucky score, kind of score, FGs you put up can put you in the lead. But what happened to these QBs when they did NOT have that kind of defense to help them out? Brad Johnson was a long time starter in this league. NEVER considered anything special, but always just consistant. Accurate, didn't give the ball away.. wouldn't LOSE you the game, but then, couldn't really be the guy to WIN you the game either. Sound familiar? He was able to win a championship with a defense.

The year Trent Dilfer won, is the year Kerry Collins took HIS team to the Super Bowl when the Giants had a fantastic defense. REX GROSSMAN, went to the Super Bowl when they had a great defense.

Look at Joe Flacco (whom I have ALWAYS considered highly over-rated and over-hyped). People were 'raving' about this kid because he won a playoff game as a rookie. In the playoffs, he was 9/23 for 135 0/0... 11/22 161 1/0....13/30 141 0/3. YET, this kid won 2 of those games BECAUSE of defense. THis year the Baltimore defense isn't looking great. It isn't NEARLY the defense they had last season.... and he is struggling.

So yes... Orton looks great right now. Its EASY to look great and get away with throwing nothing but the easy passes when your defense isn't giving up ANY POINTS at all in the entire second half. Thats EASY. Sure its easy to fire those tight windows at 5 yrds out. Sure its easy to throw the ball low and away when it doesn't matter if you complete the pass... the defense is holding. Sure its EASY right now.... Thank you defense!!!!!!!!

So I'm not taking AWAY from Orton (because I truly DO like the guy), I'm saying that he's the right QB to have with THIS defense.. THIS year. The chances of our defense holding up to those kind of numbers for the rest of the season, is damned small. The chances of our defense REPEATING this kind of performance next year.... is about Nill.

So there lies the only real concern. Kyle Orton IS a game manager. Take that as an insult to him, or simply stating the very obvious. He has shown he can win when the other team scores less then ten points in the second half and he loses 77% of the time when they don't.

So all this means, and all I'm rooting for our defense. I'm rooting LONG AND HARD for us to continue to do JUST what we are doing.... hold the other team to very few points. Its WORKING. This also holds true for our offense. Meaning.. right now with the defense doing its INCREDIBLE job, our offense is looking BETTER because of it. Does that mean I hate our offense? Not in the LEAST! It just means that right now, the production of our defense is absolutely making EVERYTHING soooooooo much easier for the offensive side of the ball.

Since I'm posting a long post....

I also want state that as excited as I was that the Broncos decided to draft a first round RB (although skeptical since I truly believe you dont need a first round RB).... I'm not excited about what I've seen from him. I am dumbfounded as to why we haven't seen more Hillis, and feel that we have a RB that has missed several seasons due to knee injury is the best RB on the team. But obviously, since the team has been winning, its not being a BRIGHT shining spotlight as a problem. But I feel the short running game is a problem, and I'm looking to the future for those games where we wont simply be having our way.

But you absolutely have to be jumping up and down about how fantastic our defense has been playing. AMAZING. AMAZING... considering the kind of change we have made.... not only in personnel but from a 43 to a 34.. and getting these kind of results without a true NT....is honestly stumping.

phwew.... glad you asked where I was, North? :lol: (rubbingMy typing cramped fingers)

[Northman]

I agree with you somewhat about Orton however i dont think Orton is nearly as bad as you claim either. Somewhere in the middle it guess. However, i do have to address this part of your post as ive been able to watch every Ravens game this year because of where i live.


Look at Joe Flacco (whom I have ALWAYS considered highly over-rated and over-hyped). People were 'raving' about this kid because he won a playoff game as a rookie. In the playoffs, he was 9/23 for 135 0/0... 11/22 161 1/0....13/30 141 0/3. YET, this kid won 2 of those games BECAUSE of defense. THis year the Baltimore defense isn't looking great. It isn't NEARLY the defense they had last season.... and he is struggling.


Joe Flacco has not been the problem for the Baltimore Ravens this year. Although your correct that the defense has been less than stellar he and the Ravens are really 3 plays from being 6-0 themselves. If not for a dropped pass by Clayton, a missed FG, and the Raven defense committing 3 penalties on the Bengals final drive the Ravens could very well be undefeated. Flacco has actually done everything he can to get them in the position they need to be to win. And he is doing this without a true downfield threat. Technically, going by his completion percentage and TD to INT ratio he is doing better than he did last year at this point. But he shows a lot of poise out there and truly isnt struggling as you suggest here.

[LRtagger]

THis year the Baltimore defense isn't looking great. It isn't NEARLY the defense they had last season.... and he is struggling.

Not sure which league you are watching, but Flacco has a 94 rating, 9th in the league in yards, has 11 TDs to only 5 INTs and leads the #5 scoring offense in the league.

Sure the defense has affected Baltimore's RECORD, but Flacco is having a Pro Bowl type year....and if not for his FG kicker would have single handedly beat the then 5-0 Vikings....his lone bad game coming in a loss to the 5-2 Bengals.

Obviously Orton can't win on his own, but apparently neither could players that were previously here.

And if you think Orton's decision making hasnt contributed to the success of the defense, then I don't know what to say....if Orton has thrown 10 INTs so far this season (as others that were previously here have), this team is 3-3 at best...probably 2-4.

I know you didn't like the Orton aquisition this offseason, but how you can deny that Orton has been a huge factor in the team's success this season is beyond me. The guy has not thrown a single meaningful interception in 6 games. If he is not making smart decisions, making proper reads, throwing the ball away when nothing is there, etc...this team is not 6-0.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I know some of you want to believe that Orton has all the high 'potential' since he's young and young in the NFL. But lets be honest... he doesn't. This is why EVERY GM in the NFL, and every coach (yes every, if they were given the same choices of players) would be willing to trade AWAY an Orton in order to GAIN other players that were once here.


So I'm not taking AWAY from Orton (because I truly DO like the guy), I'm saying that he's the right QB to have with THIS defense.. THIS year. The chances of our defense holding up to those kind of numbers for the rest of the season, is damned small. The chances of our defense REPEATING this kind of performance next year.... is about Nill.

So there lies the only real concern. Kyle Orton IS a game manager. Take that as an insult to him, or simply stating the very obvious. He has shown he can win when the other team scores less then ten points in the second half and he loses 77% of the time when they don't.

I do not agree with you, and why - because in a previous article it was stated that BEFORE Josh would agree to trade Cutler to Chicago for Orton, Josh spent MANY hours reviewing game film on Orton. That tells me that if Josh was not satisfied with Orton, and was not sure that he could be the QB in Josh's system, the trade to Chicago would NOT have been made.

[TXBRONC]

I agree with you somewhat about Orton however i dont think Orton is nearly as bad as you claim either. Somewhere in the middle it guess. However, i do have to address this part of your post as ive been able to watch every Ravens game this year because of where i live.



Joe Flacco has not been the problem for the Baltimore Ravens this year. Although your correct that the defense has been less than stellar he and the Ravens are really 3 plays from being 6-0 themselves. If not for a dropped pass by Clayton, a missed FG, and the Raven defense committing 3 penalties on the Bengals final drive the Ravens could very well be undefeated. Flacco has actually done everything he can to get them in the position they need to be to win. And he is doing this without a true downfield threat. Technically, going by his completion percentage and TD to INT ratio he is doing better than he did last year at this point. But he shows a lot of poise out there and truly isnt struggling as you suggest here.

Their loss against the Vikings shouldn't have been as close as it was. The Vikings secondary was doing a poor job of tackling that one the reasons the Ravens almost pulled it off.

That being said, Denver can't afford to make mistakes like the Vikings because Flacco is good enough to games out the fire.

[BCJ]

Ravage,
you do realize that we are in the game because of our defense is also because we are in the game because he has 9 TDs and 1 hell mary Int. He has kept us in games to win. He isnt in these games to hang on. We have needed drives like 90 and 98 yards to beat the Pats. He is legit. Here i thought i get away from guys like Rastaman (big time tool of shanny) and see this guy post. I respect those that eat the crow because they admit they were wrong. Then there are some that just cant let go of their wrong opinion. Keep fighting that fight but it will get mighty lonely.

[slim]

I was pointing that out last spring . . . :woot:

-----

Yeah, me too.

Some people still don't get it. :noidea:

[Timmy!]

I also want state that as excited as I was that the Broncos decided to draft a first round RB (although skeptical since I truly believe you dont need a first round RB).... I'm not excited about what I've seen from him. I am dumbfounded as to why we haven't seen more Hillis, and feel that we have a RB that has missed several seasons due to knee injury is the best RB on the team. But obviously, since the team has been winning, its not being a BRIGHT shining spotlight as a problem. But I feel the short running game is a problem, and I'm looking to the future for those games where we wont simply be having our way.


Not even gonna touch the Orton part of the post. Guy is playing lights out no matter how you want to spin it.

As for Moreno: He was hurt in preseason, and not 100% entering the season. That said, he's on pace for over 1000 yards rushing, and has shown good hands as a receiver. The fumbles are a concern, as he's fumbling once every 50 carries. That being said, he's just a rookie. 1200 yard of total offense (which he's on pace for) isn't bad at all. I expect he'll get a LOT more than that if he stays healthy. One thing the stats don't show, the kid is already a great pass blocker. If he doesn't pick up the blitz on the Marshall TD against the Cowboys, the Broncos might lose that game. Stats don't tell the whole tale.

As for Hillis, I understand. Hell, I started a thread begging for the guy to get more carries, but the reality is he hasn't done crap with his opportunities (did have the 1 TD against the Brownies). That said, I don't think we are using him like we should, but I'm thinking this is due to Larsen being hurt so Hillis was our only FB. With Larsen being back, I'm hoping Hillis gets more opportunities in short yardage situations. I still think he is our best short yardage back, but the play calling in SYS isn't helping no matter who the RB is. Regardless, with another healthy FB on the roster, hopefully #22 will get more action, if he proves he can handle it. I'm extremely happy with the Buck/Moreno combo, but I think Hillis should get the short yardage carries, and all of Jordan's carries (hack!). Also, can I get a FB dive now and then? How about some PA boot and hit Hillis in the flat? Something like 5-7 touches a game would make me very happy. On the other hand, if somebody goes down to injury late in the season having a fresh Hillis might just be a blessing in disguise.

[Ravage!!!]

I do not agree with you, and why - because in a previous article it was stated that BEFORE Josh would agree to trade Cutler to Chicago for Orton, Josh spent MANY hours reviewing game film on Orton. That tells me that if Josh was not satisfied with Orton, and was not sure that he could be the QB in Josh's system, the trade to Chicago would NOT have been made.

Ok. I don't know what part of my statement you are arguing with. By the time that came about, a trade WAS going to happen... to someone. So McDaniels did pick Orton over anyone that the Bucs had, or Jason Campbell from Washington.

I'm just still a firm believer that Kyle is our QB for now.. a guy thats doing a fine job of not turning the ball over...but isn't a long term answer.

But again... I'm not attacking Orton or his play. Just stating that although we are doing FANTASTIC... its easy to do fantastic when the other teams aren't scoring AGAINST you. So, GOOOOOOO Defense!!!!!!! :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

Ravage,
you do realize that we are in the game because of our defense is also because we are in the game because he has 9 TDs and 1 hell mary Int. He has kept us in games to win. He isnt in these games to hang on. We have needed drives like 90 and 98 yards to beat the Pats. He is legit. Here i thought i get away from guys like Rastaman (big time tool of shanny) and see this guy post. I respect those that eat the crow because they admit they were wrong. Then there are some that just cant let go of their wrong opinion. Keep fighting that fight but it will get mighty lonely.

what? I don't get what you are saying here.. who's Rastaman?

I get that YOU feel the guy is legit... thats fine, you are welcome to your opinion. BUt with all do respect...do you think you would respect My opinion more if I simply jump off what I believe simply because of some early success?

I'm saying Orton is doing EXACTLY what we need him to do, and is doing EXACTLY what this team needs right now. I'm not taking away from him or his play at all. I'm just saying, and sticking by the statement, that Orton is NOT our long time answer. Brad Johnson, Dilfer, McMahon... all won Super Bowls with defense.... and they were NOT the long time answer. DOesn't take away how they played with THOSE teams, nor does it take their ring away from them.

People kept telling me I was wrong when I said that Plummer was just a fill-in QB as well. I'm not saying we need to sign the Best available QB right now. I"m not calling for the guy's head by any means. I'm just saying that it makes the QB position SOOOO easy when the other teams are not scoring against you at ALLL in the second half. Man,thats great!! Way to go Defense!! whoooooooooT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ravage!!!]

Not sure which league you are watching, but Flacco has a 94 rating, 9th in the league in yards, has 11 TDs to only 5 INTs and leads the #5 scoring offense in the league.

Sure the defense has affected Baltimore's RECORD, but Flacco is having a Pro Bowl type year....and if not for his FG kicker would have single handedly beat the then 5-0 Vikings....his lone bad game coming in a loss to the 5-2 Bengals.

Obviously Orton can't win on his own, but apparently neither could players that were previously here.

And if you think Orton's decision making hasnt contributed to the success of the defense, then I don't know what to say....if Orton has thrown 10 INTs so far this season (as others that were previously here have), this team is 3-3 at best...probably 2-4.

I know you didn't like the Orton aquisition this offseason, but how you can deny that Orton has been a huge factor in the team's success this season is beyond me. The guy has not thrown a single meaningful interception in 6 games. If he is not making smart decisions, making proper reads, throwing the ball away when nothing is there, etc...this team is not 6-0.

Well.. first off..... I think the "QB RATING" stat.. is the most ridiculous stat in the NFL right now. I think its completely useless. I don't think it tells the story in any way shape or form of how the QB is playing ...relative to the game or team. I mean, just look at Elway's lifetime "QB Rating".. and tell me if thats accurate in how you would judge his effectiveness on a game.

As an example (and I'm ONLY using this particular play because its one that EVERY Denver fans knows very well, and not picking on our QB)...but the last play of the CInci game. That ONE play, that one VERY LUCKY play... changed the QB rating by something like 30 points. Thirty points for that one play? Thats why I don't see the QB rating as telling me ANYTHING about whats really going on with the QB, and feel that WAAyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many people simply look at that number and judge by it. But My point with Flacco is that he ISN"T this "super franchise" QB when his defense isn't playing like it was last year. I've watched a lot of the Baltimore games this year, and see a 'decent' QB in him, but not one that seems to get the "great young QB" propaganda he's received.

Second...I'm not saying his play isn't helping this team. He's a part of the team, so of course his play is contributing. I'm saying that his decision making has been made a LOT LOT LOT easier because we aren't playing from behind. I'm saying its VERY VERY easy to be "safe" with the ball when you know our defense is COMPLETELY shutting teams out in the second half.

You guys are taking that I'm insulting Orton and that I'm jumping down his throat and throwing stones at him. I'm not. I'm saying he is doing EXACTLY what we need with this team. I'm saying that this defense that McDaniels and Nolan have put together has been incredible so far this year.

The I'm a HUGE believer of "we've seen it before." Meaning this isn't something new to the NFL. We aren't seeing ground breaking stuff with Orton, here. Just a few years back, PLummer was looking fantastic when our defense was playing LIGHTS OUT early in the year... but once those wheels fell off, so did his play. Because more was put on his shoulders.

Of course Orton's decision making and safe passes have been contributions to the wins. But lets not exaggerate them. Lets see what they are and what he is, and be OK with what they are RATHER than feeling this is something we've never seen before. We've seen this before alllllll around the league. Its easy for ROOKIES to play smart football when the defense is playing terrific. Sanchez is ANOTHER example of how easy it is to play when the defense is playing lights out.

Kerry Collins led his team to a 13-3 season last year when the Titan's defense was playing AMAZING. How's he doing THIS year when they aren't??

Believe me, and I'll say it RIGHT NOW and I promise NOT to back away from it. IF we win a Super Bowl with Kyle Orton, I'm not going to say that we won without Kyle's contribution. I"m not going to say "he" didn't have anything to do with it. Thats silly. I said that was silly when people said that about Trent Dilfer. But that doesn't mean I will consider him to be a top-flight QB either.

I think people get too emotionally wrapped up with the players on their favorite team, and sometimes aren't able to step back and just be a bit realistic.

[Ravage!!!]

Damnit... I have to stop meeting clients in the middle of posting.... I have no idea how much I'm writing. Sorry for the long posts guys.

[topscribe]

what? I don't get what you are saying here.. who's Rastaman?

I get that YOU feel the guy is legit... thats fine, you are welcome to your opinion. BUt with all do respect...do you think you would respect My opinion more if I simply jump off what I believe simply because of some early success?

I'm saying Orton is doing EXACTLY what we need him to do, and is doing EXACTLY what this team needs right now. I'm not taking away from him or his play at all. I'm just saying, and sticking by the statement, that Orton is NOT our long time answer. Brad Johnson, Dilfer, McMahon... all won Super Bowls with defense.... and they were NOT the long time answer. DOesn't take away how they played with THOSE teams, nor does it take their ring away from them.

People kept telling me I was wrong when I said that Plummer was just a fill-in QB as well. I'm not saying we need to sign the Best available QB right now. I"m not calling for the guy's head by any means. I'm just saying that it makes the QB position SOOOO easy when the other teams are not scoring against you at ALLL in the second half. Man,thats great!! Way to go Defense!! whoooooooooT!!!!!!!!!!!

I still say you were wrong that Plummer was just a "fill-in" QB. I might remind
you that Plummer was the last QB to take us to a playoff game,and he took
us there three years in a row. Plummer is one of only three QBs ever to take
us to more than one playoff in a row, and only four who have taken us there
at all.

Your lack of knowledge is glaring, both when you say that Orton has had only
"early" success and compare him to Dilfer and Johnson, and when you say
that the QB position is easy in any case.

Orton has had success all along. He had success in college. He had success
as a rookie in the NFL and in his second season as a starter (last year) --
without good supporting casts, and when his defense was not playing "lights
out." You're talking to someone who researched it heavily.

And to say that the QB position for the Broncos is easy is just asinine. Have
you not listened to anybody from the Broncos? They talk about how difficult
the QB position is on the Broncos, how a lot more is asked on the Broncos
than on other teams.

You keep putting down Orton's talents. As it turns out, he does have a strong
arm, as I have been saying all along. He is exceptional at reading defenses
and directing traffic. His name has become synonymous with the term
"accurate." His lack of INTs is supported by the fact he had only 12 INTs all
of last year. His name always mentioned when someone on the Broncos talks
about the leaders on the team.

You might as well get used to it: Orton is going to be here for a while. He is
a perfect fit for McDaniels' system, and he is on his way to becoming our
Franchise QB.

I'm behind you all the way, Rav, on your recovery toward reality. :sad:

BTW, you did tell the waiter I said the meal is on me, didn't you? :D

-----

[Ravage!!!]

However, i do have to address this part of your post as ive been able to watch every Ravens game this year because of where i live.

Joe Flacco has not been the problem for the Baltimore Ravens this year. Although your correct that the defense has been less than stellar he and the Ravens are really 3 plays from being 6-0 themselves. If not for a dropped pass by Clayton, a missed FG, and the Raven defense committing 3 penalties on the Bengals final drive the Ravens could very well be undefeated. Flacco has actually done everything he can to get them in the position they need to be to win. And he is doing this without a true downfield threat. Technically, going by his completion percentage and TD to INT ratio he is doing better than he did last year at this point. But he shows a lot of poise out there and truly isnt struggling as you suggest here.

I'm not really saying he's the problem...or at least.. didn't mean to say that. I'm saying that right now, he isn't enjoying the same success he did as a rookie BECAUSE the defense isn't holding up as they did. Which is the point I was trying to make.

But as far as your examples... we can use those kind of statements for EVERY Team in the NFL. The Titans wouldn't be winless "if" this wasn't dropped, or that didn't fumble, or that tackle was made.. or that catch was made..or that kick wasn't returned, or that kick ws made. I mean, thats part of it. Thats part of the NFL. I can turn around and say "but if he didn't miss that wide open guy, or didn't make that misread, or if he only saw that blitze better, or if he would hae thrown to this guy instead of that guy, or if he only didn't throw that one away.. or if he didn't take that sack..or if he just didn't miss on that out route for the first down....... then that One catch woudln't have been needed, it wouldn't have been left up to a single kick.

I'm not saying he's a bad QB by any means... just saying that I've watched quite a bit of the Ravens games.. and although he's decent, I don't see him as a future franchise QB. But, as always.. we'll see

[Lonestar]

Just a little food for thought not only is this a brand new Offense to every player it is brand new to all the coaches.

Also our QB so severely dislocated the second most important finger on his throwing hand the bone broke thru the skin, just prior to the season. That he played gutsy ball wearing a glove the protect said finger till two weeks ago.

The guy is the general on the offense field that we have been lacking since Jake was fired. Someone that says it is a team win and his fault when things do not go well. Someone that is respected by his teammates.

Sent via Blackberry by altell.

[BroncoWave]

Second...I'm not saying his play isn't helping this team. He's a part of the team, so of course his play is contributing. I'm saying that his decision making has been made a LOT LOT LOT easier because we aren't playing from behind. I'm saying its VERY VERY easy to be "safe" with the ball when you know our defense is COMPLETELY shutting teams out in the second half.

Wait, what? I guess you missed the Dallas game where he led us to 17 straight points after we were trailing 10-0, or the NE game where he led us on 90 and 98 yard drives while trailing or tied in the 4th quarter and OT.

[honz]

Wait, what? I guess you missed the Dallas game where he led us to 17 straight points after we were trailing 10-0, or the NE game where he led us on 90 and 98 yard drives while trailing or tied in the 4th quarter and OT.
Or the NE game that required a 98 yard TD drive in the 4th Q to tie it. Hell, we were even down at halftime in SD. And then there was his amazing game winning drive against Cincy...just kidding on that one. :)

[Shazam!]

People kept telling me I was wrong when I said that Plummer was just a fill-in QB as well.

Yes, you were wrong. Shanahan threw him under the bus like he has so many other players before. To him, the Jake experiment didn't work because they lost the AFCCG. How many times in the history of the NFL did a coach run their 13-3 QB who was under 35 out of town by drafting his successor?


I'm just saying that it makes the QB position SOOOO easy when the other teams are not scoring against you at ALLL in the second half.

So damn the Broncos' great coaching staff! The D should be playing at a mediocre level, to prove that Orton is a mediocre QB!

Ravage, please stop. Your analysis on just about everything regarding the Broncos, Orton and McDaniels since early in the year has proven to be below average, biased, complete fabrications or just outright wrong. Just embrace the success of the team and stop nitpicking about shit.

[Ravage!!!]

I still say you were wrong that Plummer was just a "fill-in" QB. I might remind
you that Plummer was the last QB to take us to a playoff game,and he took
us there three years in a row. Plummer is one of only three QBs ever to take
us to more than one playoff in a row, and only four who have taken us there
at all.

Perhaps you didn't see it, but everyone saw how Plummer played in the biggest game of his life.. AND.. how he was REPLACED.. thus, he was a "fill-in" QB when he was brought here. THere was a reason he was let go in AZ, and there was a reason he was then replaced when in Denver. If the guy is only here four years, and is replaced, thats a fill in. Hey, let me remind you of this........ Dilfer won the Super Bowl and wasnt the starting QB the following year. Success doesn't determine if you are a 'fill-in' QB or not. Dilfer was a fill-in as well. :wink:


Your lack of knowledge is glaring, both when you say that Orton has had only "early" success and compare him to Dilfer and Johnson, and when you say that the QB position is easy in any case.

Orton has had success all along. He had success in college. He had success
as a rookie in the NFL and in his second season as a starter (last year) --
without good supporting casts, and when his defense was not playing "lights
out." You're talking to someone who researched it heavily.

THEY ALL had success in college TOp.. that goes without saying. They ALL had success in HS too. Thats why they are in the NFL. Sorry if I don't count that, considering some of the BIGGEST BUSTS in the NFL had great success in College. That, to me, is just redundantly clear.

I don't have a "lack of knowledge", the only thing glaring is the fact that you don't like it that I disagree with your opinion. That bothers you because you find that your "heavy research" is somehow the end-all of the discussion.. .. just as your "I saw the long ball pass, thus he DOES have a strong arm." We are all just supposed to take your word as the gospel.

But he didn't have an abundance of success in Chicago. As I pointed out, in the ONLY 13 games where a team scored a measly TD and FG in the second half of his NFL career....he's 3-13. Which tell me a couple things. ONE.. he's played with some good defense.. since Grossman during the SB season had 9 in that single season alone, and that was supposed to be a BETTER defense than what Orton played with. Two, he doesn't put points up enough to put teams away. Three, when a team puts up a TD and a FG in the entire 3rd/4th quarter, he losses 77% of the time. You've "researched" it heavily :lol:

Again.. you are doing your best to spin the words as if I'm attacking Orton, and I'm not. The ONLY thing Ive said, is he's playing well WITH a defense that is playing AMAZINGLY well, and thats making it SOOOO much easier on him. If you don't find THAT to be a fact.... do more research.


And to say that the QB position for the Broncos is easy is just asinine. Have you not listened to anybody from the Broncos? They talk about how difficult the QB position is on the Broncos, how a lot more is asked on the Broncos than on other teams.

How is more on the QB in Denver than other teams??? :confused: Explain that too me so that those of us with the "lack of your knowledge" can understand. Explain it in laymans terms so I can keep up, please. I'm going to assume now that you will bypass this part of the post.

The only thing asanine here, is you saying thats what I said it was EASY to play QB for the Broncos. I didn't say that its EASY to be a Denver QB.. I said that its EASIER to play QB for ANY team that is playing lights out defense.. HENCE why I used Johnson, DIlfer, McMahan, Collins, Flacco, and now Sanchez as examples of this. Its EASIER to play QB when your defense is keeping the other team from scoring. HOW is that being asinine and how is that insulting Orton? Because I'm saying that right now he has an easier 'job' than QBs that are playing with defenses like Detroit, Washington, or Tampa? Really? Again, if thats what YOU are saying... do MORE research along with your "heavy research" from before.

Here's another point, since you bring it up. McDaniel's is said to have a very QB friendly system. So that being KNOWN FACT (as you like to put it), how is it NOT easy to be a QB for the Broncos??? :confused: Wouldn't that just fit into exactly what has been said about McDaniel's offensive scheme???? I mean, unless you are going to tell me that Matt Cassel is able to play well in a very hard, complicated, and un-easy system while in NE, but isn't able to play will in a much 'easier' offense in KC.... I don't see your point. Isn't that how McDaniel's system is described, QB friendly??

But before thats blown out of proportion, and before you and others don't see the sarcasm (although factual) statement with that... No. I don't think its "easy" to be a Bronco QB. ITs not "easy" to be the QB on any team in ANY system.


You keep putting down Orton's talents. As it turns out, he does have a strong arm, as I have been saying all along. He is exceptional at reading defenses and directing traffic. His name has become synonymous with the term "accurate." His lack of INTs is supported by the fact he had only 12 INTs all of last year. His name always mentioned when someone on the Broncos talks about the leaders on the team.

He has a strong arm? really? So this post of yours isn't about what I've said, this post is about YOU trying to prove YOUR assessment right.... isn't that so? SO its about your ego???

Sorry Top.. I still don't see this "strong" arm you are referring to. I know I know.. you figure I should just accept it because you say so, but I just don't take your word as gospel. Perhaps you can convince someone else with your "I told you so" speeches...but its not working with me. I have a well informed, educated, mind of my own. You said the same thing to me about Plummer as well. I keep hearing the same things from you.


You might as well get used to it: Orton is going to be here for a while. He is a perfect fit for McDaniels' system, and he is on his way to becoming ourFranchise QB.

So, whats a 'while'?? Plummer "while?" Again, I've heard this before from you... Hmmmm..:confused: Seems you told me the same thing some other time. It only takes ONE bad season, or even a stretch of games where people will not simply accept "he's perfect for the system" abilities. Thats just reality. His "he's perfect for the system" type of skills only works when things look good. But once it doesn't, those skill sets that make him a 'system QB' instead of a franchise quality QB, will beam through the "good for the coach's system" hype. Hell, it beamed through just in pre-season alone. You saw how quickly fans forget the "he's perfect for the system" junk when its just not working.

But thats really the only point I've said/made. I'm not putting down Orton because I'm able to see that as of right now, he is looking very good because our defense is looking AMAZINGLY good. I'm not putting him down for stating the reality of his abilities. Right now, our defense is playing incredible, and its making his job easier (er..easiER, top) and thats just the facts for EVERY QB in the NFL. If you have a defense that is completely shutting out the opposing teams in the second half... that ABSOLUTELY makes the job easier.

[Ravage!!!]

Yes, you were wrong. Shanahan threw him under the bus like he has so many other players before. To him, the Jake experiment didn't work because they lost the AFCCG. How many times in the history of the NFL did a coach run their 13-3 QB who was under 35 out of town by drafting his successor?
well.. the Ravens replaced their QB winning QB. How long did it take for the Bucs to draft a QB to replace Johnson?

Plummer ws a fill-in QB from the moment he waas brought here. Thats why I'm NOT wrong, because you haven't shown me a SINGLE ounce of proof other than your glaring dislike for SHanahan. Give me something else. I said that Plummer was a fill-in the moment he was brought to Denver. Why? Because he wasn't franchise quality QB. Hence.. every team wants that kind of QB on their team. Thats pretty easy. How can you not see that?




So damn the Broncos' great coaching staff! The D should be playing at a mediocre level, to prove that Orton is a mediocre QB!:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Why is it that if I make an obvious statement about how well the Defense is playing, you want to turn tht into a putdown on the defense and how we shouldn't be playing that well? You are just LOOOOOOKING to argue when there isn't one there. :rolleyes:


Ravage, please stop. Your analysis on just about everything regarding the Broncos, Orton and McDaniels since early in the year has proven to be below average, biased, complete fabrications or just outright wrong. Just embrace the success of the team and stop nitpicking about shit.

Riiiight. I should simply stop seeing what I see, and imagine that although I've stated how THRILLED I am with the team and how we are winning.. I should ignore that I still don't see the "great potential" of our QB. Thats i... I don't see the "Great upside" of Kyle Orton. How is that not enjoying what we are doing? :lol: :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Wait, what? I guess you missed the Dallas game where he led us to 17 straight points after we were trailing 10-0, or the NE game where he led us on 90 and 98 yard drives while trailing or tied in the 4th quarter and OT.

Uhmmm... you mean the game where the Dallas team didn't score a single point in the ENTIRE 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters??? No, I didn't miss that at Allllllllllll... thank you for making my point :beer:

[Cugel]

Kyle Orton has a LOT to do with whether this team is a "perennial SB team" or not. Let's take these points in order.


"Kyle Orton doesn't need to be elite for this team to be a contender every year."

Contender for what? To win the division? To win a playoff game? To win the AFC Championship? To win a SB?

The Broncos as presently constituted can get into the playoffs. Barring a late season collapse they'll win the division and host a playoff game. But to actually win a SB? Can they do that with a QB who is "not elite."

I Flat Don't Believe It And History Suggests The Answer Is NO!

What QBs have won the SB in recent years?

Ben Roethlisberger (2)
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady (3)
Kurt Warner
John Elway (2)
Brett Favre
Steve Young
Troy Aikman (3)

All of those QBs are either IN the Hall of Fame or certain to BE in when their careers are over -- except Roethlisberger and Eli Manning who are consistent elite pro-bowl QBs who MIGHT be in the Hall of Fame when their careers end -- or they might not. It's too early to tell.

The two QBs not on that list? Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson. And their defenses were the the greatest defense in modern NFL history (Ravens) and the 2002 Bucs whose defense gave up 196 points and was statistically the 2nd best defense since the '86 Bears.

That's why I insist the Broncos CAN win the SB this year -- IF their defense continues to hold opponents to an average of 11 points a game and finish the season still playing like the 2002 Bucs, the '85-86 Bears or the 2000 Ravens.

The 2000 Ravens held opponents to 10.3 ppg. The 2002 Bucs? 12.25 ppg.

The 2009 Broncos so far: 11 ppg -- right in between.

But, if the defense slips? What then?

There's simply NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that you can win a SB with a good but not elite "system QB" and a good but not great defense. The NFL changed the defensive holding and pass-interference rules to make it illegal to touch the WR more than 5 yards downfield, and breathing on the QB is now punishable by a hefty fine. You can't hit him high, you can't hit him low. Not even accidentally.

The NFL is now a QB driven league. That's they way they want it. But this places a HUGE emphasis on having an elite QB.

It used to be that you could win the SB with a good defense, a dominant running game and Joe Thiesman at QB (the '83 Redskins who beat Dan Marino and the Dolphins). Or the '84 SB Raiders with won the SB by running Marcus Allen all over the place.

Not anymore.

That list I just quoted proves:

1. You can win the SB with an elite QB and a good or great defense.
2. You can win the SB with a "system" QB and one of the top 5 defenses in NFL history.

That's about it.

So. CAN the team win with a "system" QB like Kyle Orton who doesn't make many mistakes, throws the ball away and relies on his defense?

Sure. IF that defense is one of the best defenses in modern NFL history. Otherwise? NO. :coffee:

EDIT: If you want to argue that Kyle Orton is or will be an elite QB, then fine. There's no way to disprove that at this point. He hasn't been throughout his 4 year career so far. He lacks elite arm strength or athleticism. He doesn't have a great pocket presence and isn't a threat to run. He's not particularly fast. He's not terribly accurate on long throws.

In short, there's nothing to suggest that he's more than meets the eye. A smart system QB who reads his progressions well, is accurate on short to medium range passes and has nice touch on the short ball. A conservative game manager who doesn't take chances and will throw the ball away rather than risking an INT. There's no way to PROVE he can't suddenly become Tom Brady -- other than that he doesn't have the talent of Tom Brady.

But, I'll believe it when I see it. For two or three years -- not 6 games.

He's playing VERY WELL within the system. The team CAN win a lot of games with that kind of QB -- so long as the defense is very strong.

But, will he progress to become a QB of the same caliber as Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, Tom Brady? Those guys are elite QBs.

Any season the rest of their team is playing as well as they do, the team has a chance to win a SB.

Peyton Manning only won 1 SB? That's because his defense wasn't up to the job, except that one year. THIS year they are playing almost as well as the Broncos defense, which means they are the favorite to win the SB.

[Ravage!!!]

Or the NE game that required a 98 yard TD drive in the 4th Q to tie it. Hell, we were even down at halftime in SD. And then there was his amazing game winning drive against Cincy...just kidding on that one. :)

Again.. we were down 10 at half, and the NE team didn't score a single point the entire second half!! WHOOOOT!! Seriously. our defense is AWSOME right now!! Way to go D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BroncoWave]

Uhmmm... you mean the game where the Dallas team didn't score a single point in the ENTIRE 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters??? No, I didn't miss that at Allllllllllll... thank you for making my point :beer:

Way to conveniently ignore the NE game. It would just absolutely kill you to admit that if not for Orton leading us on spectacular 98 and 90 yard drives in that game, we don't win.

[Shazam!]

While Orton is looking 'amazingly good because the defense is playing amazingly good', if Cutler was still here I don't think the Broncos would be undefeated if the games played out similarly. Playing in a few close games, he would've forced the issue on drives and made some mistakes in a few of those games, like Dallas or NE. Other teams would've planned differently for Cutler, sending more pressure to force him into his Cutler-esque mistakes.

It just kills you to admit he's playing at a high level. Despite the awesome defense, he makes few mistakes, protects the ball and plays smart giving this team a chance to win every game they play. Something that Cutler did not do.

[Lonestar]

Yes, you were wrong. Shanahan threw him under the bus like he has so many other players before. To him, the Jake experiment didn't work because they lost the AFCCG. How many times in the history of the NFL did a coach run their 13-3 QB who was under 35 out of town by drafting his successor?



So damn the Broncos' great coaching staff! The D should be playing at a mediocre level, to prove that Orton is a mediocre QB!

Ravage, please stop. Your analysis on just about everything regarding the Broncos, Orton and McDaniels since early in the year has proven to be below average, biased, complete fabrications or just outright wrong. Just embrace the success of the team and stop nitpicking about shit.


not to mention after getting rid of Jake rebuilt the OLINE that sucked that game.. so jay would have a chance of not being killed by sacks.. not to mention drafting scheffler, marshall, hixon, DOOM and adding Kuper, enslinger to the Oline mix..

so even mike was not happy with the O after that loss.. one DL guy in all the 2006 picks.. We all know that Jake was not the only reason we lost that game, unless of course your a JAKE hater then he was not even the reason we got to the game..

you also have to remember some folks have so much invested in their own Credibility that they can't simply say "hey I was wrong".. EGO running amok..

I for one never thought that we would be this good this fast.. I really saw us as a contender next year because of the massive changes made not only to the player group, but coaches and IMHO the lack of a real DL..

"hey I was wrong".. see that is not so hard..

[Ravage!!!]

Again.. we were down 10 at half, and the NE team didn't score a single point the entire second half!! WHOOOOT!! Seriously. our defense is AWSOME right now!! Way to go D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Way to conveniently ignore the NE game. It would just absolutely kill you to admit that if not for Orton leading us on spectacular 98 and 90 yard drives in that game, we don't win.

I didn't ignore the NE game, I just responded to someone else about that one

[Ravage!!!]

I'd love nothing more than to call you a blithering ass, but I do not. Don't insult other posters.

Nice 'side step' of the insulting rules there, shazam.. you are just sooo clever


While Orton is looking 'amazingly good because the defense is playing amazingly good', if Cutler was still here I don't think the Broncos would be undefeated if the games played out similarly. Playing in a few close games, he would've forced the issue on drives and made some mistakes in a few of those games, like Dallas or NE. Other teams would've planned differently for Cutler, sending more pressure to force him into his Cutler-esque mistakes.

It just kills you to admit he's playing at a high level. Despite the awesome defense, he makes few mistakes, protects the ball and plays smart giving this team a chance to win every game they play. Something that Cutler did not do.

Thats your opinion, and thats fine. I DO know that our offense put up a lot more points with him Here..despite losing 7 RBs and not having a first round pick RB in the backfield.

But that wasn't the point. I didn't bring up Cutler at all. I was pointing out that Orton is looking good because he hasn't had to contend with the other team scoring in the second half. We were down by ten in NE.. so we had to score just a TD and FG to catch up in the second half. The defnse STUFFED them to nothing....and we had to go into OT.

The Dallas game, Dallas scord zero points against our defense in THREE quarters (2nd 3rd, 4th).. how is that not helping out our QB??? WHy is it an insult to him to say it is???????

[Ravage!!!]

Is this how we sound more RIGHT now days on the board?? Bigger, bolder, and louder fonts make us heard?? :lol:

Lets not get into that AFCCG again.. there were a LOT of things wrong with the team, and no one player has the blame for that loss. But that was only part of why Plummer was let go. YOu watch the game film and watch how Jaws points out allt he completely wrong reads Plummer makes, and you can see that Shanahan was ready to find a QB that was willing to spend more time in the film room in preparation. That was the demise of Jake's run. That, and he just could not pass from the pocket.

[Shazam!]

The Dallas game, Dallas scord zero points against our defense in THREE quarters (2nd 3rd, 4th).. how is that not helping out our QB??? WHy is it an insult to him to say it is???????

Because you simply refuse to recognize despite not scoring a lot of points, that in six games on a new team, with a new staff and a new system he is playing efficient, near-mistake free ball. It's really that simple.

[Ravage!!!]

Because you simply refuse to recognize that in six games on a new team, with a new staff and a new system he is playing near-mistake free ball. It's really that simple.

Ok... its really that simple. Yet you act like this had never happened in the NFL before. You want to pretend that no QB has had great starts on new teams, or that rookies have never succeeded, or tha great defensive play has never helped out mediocre QBs in the past. We hve seen it, and a 6 game stretch doesn't mean that I should simply ignore allllllll the past evidence we've seen. Eventually, teams will start scoring in the second half and Orton will have to try and keep up. That is the ONLY thing I've said that concerns me.

YOU refuse to accept that allowing NO points in those games in the entire second half (or three quarters game) is what has allowed a low scoring offense to win those late battles.

Is that an insult to Orton, or is it complimenting our defense? Because I know all I've done so far, is compliment how fantastic our defense has played.

[Ravage!!!]

Because you simply refuse to recognize despite not scoring a lot of points, that in six games on a new team, with a new staff and a new system he is playing efficient, near-mistake free ball. It's really that simple.

Wait.. after re-reading this. You are saying that what Orton has provided is no INTs... not putting up points... but, not turning the ball over. Sounds to me that you are describing a 'game manager'.....yet thats a term we aren't supposed to use with Orton, for that would be insulting.

[Shazam!]

I know all I've done so far, is compliment how fantastic our defense has played.


Because you simply refuse to recognize despite not scoring a lot of points, that in six games on a new team, with a new staff and a new system he is playing efficient, near-mistake free ball. It's really that simple.

As I said. It really is that simple.

[Cugel]

I'd love nothing more than to call you a blithering ass, but I do not. Don't insult other posters.

While Orton is looking 'amazingly good because the defense is playing amazingly good', if Cutler was still here I don't think the Broncos would be undefeated if the games played out similarly. Playing in a few close games, he would've forced the issue on drives and made some mistakes in a few of those games, like Dallas or NE. Other teams would've planned differently for Cutler, sending more pressure to force him into his Cutler-esque mistakes.

It just kills you to admit he's playing at a high level. Despite the awesome defense, he makes few mistakes, protects the ball and plays smart giving this team a chance to win every game they play. Something that Cutler did not do.

If Cutler were still here AND he threw as many INTs as he has for the Bears the Broncos would have lost at least 1 or more games. There's little doubt of that.

Cutler has NOT played well -- either in Denver or in Chicago in games where the defense collapsed and put all the pressure on him to make plays.

He tends in those circumstances to try and force the ball in to WRs who are well covered -- resulting in INTs.

Orton hasn't done that so far this year. He's thrown the ball away and let his defense come out and take over.

Beyond that we just can't tell. Cutler has NEVER played for a team with a defense 1/2 as good as the Broncos D is playing this season.

In fact the Broncos have NEVER had a defense this good since the '77 Orange Crush.

It might not last all year. Or it might.

Frankly, you just can't tell anything about "what the Broncos would do if they still had Jay Cutler."

He's played well in Chicago when their defense played well and badly when they didn't and all the pressure was on him. He hasn't had a great season and the team is mired at .500. They might even have a losing year (which would REALLY be good for the Broncos draft pick)!

He's still young and might grow into a top 10 QB like Phillip Rivers or Drew Brees. Or he might not. He might be a disappointment -- which would please a lot of fans in Denver.

Most NFL experts think he's got tremendous potential -- which is why about 20 teams wanted to trade for him and 6 made serious offers of multiple high-round draft picks and players to acquire him.

[Cugel]

not to mention after getting rid of Jake rebuilt the OLINE that sucked that game.. so jay would have a chance of not being killed by sacks.. not to mention drafting scheffler, marshall, hixon, DOOM and adding Kuper, enslinger to the Oline mix..

so even mike was not happy with the O after that loss.. one DL guy in all the 2006 picks.. We all know that Jake was not the only reason we lost that game, unless of course your a JAKE hater then he was not even the reason we got to the game..

you also have to remember some folks have so much invested in their own Credibility that they can't simply say "hey I was wrong".. EGO running amok..

I for one never thought that we would be this good this fast.. I really saw us as a contender next year because of the massive changes made not only to the player group, but coaches and IMHO the lack of a real DL..

Must we go over all the reasons why Shanahan concluded that "I felt we'd gone about as far as we were going to" with Jake?

Jake had limited ability. He wasn't a very good or accurate pocket passer. And teams figured out that if you put pressure on him from the edges and kept him in the pocket and blitzed him and dared him to throw deep he couldn't beat you.

That's what the Steelers did in the AFC Championship and it worked.

It's amazing how many fans think Shanahan was some sort of IDIOT who couldn't figure out what the average beer-guzzling fan can about how great the 2005 team with Jake was. :coffee:

Shanahan tried Griese "the System QB" with the "Brian Griese's arm is just as strong as Joe Montana's." It didn't work.

Griese wasn't athletic enough and didn't have a strong enough arm. Teams realized they could pressure Griese and hit him because he was a stationary target.

Then Shanny tried Plummer. Plummer was a LOT more mobile and athletic than Griese -- but, once again he lacked a great arm and wasn't that accurate -- especially on deep throws if you kept him in the pocket.

After 2005 Shanny realized he needed an ELITE QB to win in this league -- the "system" wasn't going to be good enough. So, he drafted Jay Cutler.

You can argue that Cutler won't become that kind of QB anyway because he's not careful enough with the ball and makes too many mistakes. Maybe Cutler will become a consistent pro-bowl QB the way most NFL scouts and GMs think he will, and maybe not. But, that doesn't prove Shanahan was wrong about Jake or Brian!

Fans forget that 2005 team was a "last-gasp" team filled with veterans who were about to retire or fall apart: Al Wilson's last pro-bowl season, Courtney Brown's last healthy season, Gerrard Warren't last salary-drive, Rod Smith's final curtain call, Trevor Pryce, Matt Lepsis and Tom Nalen. There were just too many key guys they needed to replace in the next year or two to expect that team to stay together and win a championship.

The Steelers exposed their limitations. Shanny was right. That team went about as far as it could. They would never have come close to that season again -- it was time to rebuild.

Shanny just failed to rebuild the defense before time ran out for him. :coffee:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I may be wrong, but I can not imagine fans on other teams, who have had the success that the Broncos have had so far this year - with so MUCH stacked against them - according to the media - according to the fans - STILL finding fault with the QB, or the coach, or WHATEVER/WHOEVER - just TOTALLY amazes me. I choose to LOVE every minute of how successful the Broncos have been so far this year.

[honz]

Again.. we were down 10 at half, and the NE team didn't score a single point the entire second half!! WHOOOOT!! Seriously. our defense is AWSOME right now!! Way to go D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes our defense played great, but you said he can't lead a team from behind to win a game when he has proven that he can lead some big time drives when he needs to in order to win games. I mean he orchestrated an 87 yard TD drive on the road in Cincy with under a minute left. :)

Seriously though, how many times have the defenses of Ben Rothlissburgermurger, Peyton Manning, John Elway, and other "great" QB's kept them in the game long enough so that they could come up with a game winning drive late in the game? Pittsburgh rode that formula all the way to the SB last year. Orton has proven that he can come up with big time drives even when the defense knows we have to throw the ball.

[Cugel]

Lets not get into that AFCCG again.. there were a LOT of things wrong with the team, and no one player has the blame for that loss. But that was only part of why Plummer was let go. YOu watch the game film and watch how Jaws points out allt he completely wrong reads Plummer makes, and you can see that Shanahan was ready to find a QB that was willing to spend more time in the film room in preparation. That was the demise of Jake's run. That, and he just could not pass from the pocket.

Well, this is a shorter version of what I said. More direct and to the point.

What I can't get past is how fans think they know more than Shanny did about how to run an OFFENSE! :confused:

The guy was a certified offensive genius who won 2 SB with great OFFENSES, and whose offenses consistently finished in the top 10 every year and usually top 5 -- even after he no longer had Hall of Famer caliber players like John Elway, Gary Zimmerman or T.D. He managed to find endless nobodies who ran for 1000 yards behind an OL he drafted in the 6th and later rounds.

He rebuilt the Offense with one great offensive draft pick after another: Cutler, Sheffler, Marshall, Kuper, Clady, Harris, Royal, Hixon (unfortunately let go), etc., etc.

He couldn't draft defense or find a D-coordinator who could do the job and his FA DEFENSIVE pickups sucked horribly. Ergo, he lost his job.

But, obviously he MISJUDGED how great Plummer was because he just couldn't judge offensive talent or run an offensive scheme? Seriously? That's you guys' argument? :coffee:

[honz]

P.S. I would just like to point out that we are scoring 0.9 points less per game this year while turning the ball over far less. That is a sure wire way for improvement...and I expect our PPG to keep going up as it has consistently since week 1.

[Cugel]

Yes our defense played great, but you said he can't lead a team from behind to win a game when he has proven that he can lead some big time drives when he needs to in order to win games. I mean he orchestrated an 87 yard TD drive on the road in Cincy with under a minute left. :)

Seriously though, how many times have the defenses of Ben Rothlissburgermurger [sic], Peyton Manning, John Elway, and other "great" QB's kept them in the game long enough so that they could come up with a game winning drive late in the game? Pittsburgh rode that formula all the way to the SB last year. Orton has proven that he can come up with big time drives even when the defense knows we have to throw the ball.

If you put the quotes around the word "great" when referring to John Elway, thus indicating sarcasm, you automatically FAIL!

http://kevinrobinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/epic_fail.jpg

[Lonestar]

P.S. I would just like to point out that we are scoring 0.9 points less per game this year while turning the ball over far less. That is a sure FIRE way for improvement...and I expect our PPG to keep going up as it has consistently since week 1.


but then that is not because of KO not throwing picks either is it?:salute:


naw it only Defense as some folks think..:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[honz]

If you put the quotes around the word "great" when referring to John Elway, thus indicating sarcasm, you automatically FAIL!

http://kevinrobinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/epic_fail.jpg

Yes, I think John Elway sux.

I was just trying to show that others call them great and that it's not necessarily my opinion.

[Lonestar]

Yes our defense played great, but you said he can't lead a team from behind to win a game when he has proven that he can lead some big time drives when he needs to in order to win games. I mean he orchestrated an 87 yard TD drive on the road in Cincy with under a minute left. :)

Seriously though, how many times have the defenses of Ben Rothlissburgermurger, Peyton Manning, John Elway, and other "great" QB's kept them in the game long enough so that they could come up with a game winning drive late in the game? Pittsburgh rode that formula all the way to the SB last year. Orton has proven that he can come up with big time drives even when the defense knows we have to throw the ball.

and regardless we all know Big BEN was nothing UBER special in his first SUPER BOWL win..

PIT was built to win with Defense and a good QB..

IIRC Brady was nothing great in his first SB win either the glory and fame came after that one..

nor was eli great in his win..

and had payton's D not come on strong in the post season would they have even been there..

but then I could be wrong..

What might have happened to BAL had they kept and improved Dilfer and his O players around him, I guess we will never know..

[topscribe]

Kyle Orton has a LOT to do with whether this team is a "perennial SB team" or not. Let's take these points in order.


Contender for what? To win the division? To win a playoff game? To win the AFC Championship? To win a SB?

The Broncos as presently constituted can get into the playoffs. Barring a late season collapse they'll win the division and host a playoff game. But to actually win a SB? Can they do that with a QB who is "not elite."

I Flat Don't Believe It And History Suggests The Answer Is NO!

What QBs have won the SB in recent years?

Ben Roethlisberger (2)
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady (3)
Kurt Warner
John Elway (2)
Brett Favre
Steve Young
Troy Aikman (3)

All of those QBs are either IN the Hall of Fame or certain to BE in when their careers are over -- except Roethlisberger and Eli Manning who are consistent elite pro-bowl QBs who MIGHT be in the Hall of Fame when their careers end -- or they might not. It's too early to tell.

The two QBs not on that list? Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson. And their defenses were the the greatest defense in modern NFL history (Ravens) and the 2002 Bucs whose defense gave up 196 points and was statistically the 2nd best defense since the '86 Bears.

That's why I insist the Broncos CAN win the SB this year -- IF their defense continues to hold opponents to an average of 11 points a game and finish the season still playing like the 2002 Bucs, the '85-86 Bears or the 2000 Ravens.

The 2000 Ravens held opponents to 10.3 ppg. The 2002 Bucs? 12.25 ppg.

The 2009 Broncos so far: 11 ppg -- right in between.

But, if the defense slips? What then?

There's simply NO EVIDENCE AT ALL that you can win a SB with a good but not elite "system QB" and a good but not great defense. The NFL changed the defensive holding and pass-interference rules to make it illegal to touch the WR more than 5 yards downfield, and breathing on the QB is now punishable by a hefty fine. You can't hit him high, you can't hit him low. Not even accidentally.

The NFL is now a QB driven league. That's they way they want it. But this places a HUGE emphasis on having an elite QB.

It used to be that you could win the SB with a good defense, a dominant running game and Joe Thiesman at QB (the '83 Redskins who beat Dan Marino and the Dolphins). Or the '84 SB Raiders with won the SB by running Marcus Allen all over the place.

Not anymore.

That list I just quoted proves:

1. You can win the SB with an elite QB and a good or great defense.
2. You can win the SB with a "system" QB and one of the top 5 defenses in NFL history.

That's about it.

So. CAN the team win with a "system" QB like Kyle Orton who doesn't make many mistakes, throws the ball away and relies on his defense?

Sure. IF that defense is one of the best defenses in modern NFL history. Otherwise? NO. :coffee:

EDIT: If you want to argue that Kyle Orton is or will be an elite QB, then fine. There's no way to disprove that at this point. He hasn't been throughout his 4 year career so far. He lacks elite arm strength or athleticism. He doesn't have a great pocket presence and isn't a threat to run. He's not particularly fast. He's not terribly accurate on long throws.

In short, there's nothing to suggest that he's more than meets the eye. A smart system QB who reads his progressions well, is accurate on short to medium range passes and has nice touch on the short ball. A conservative game manager who doesn't take chances and will throw the ball away rather than risking an INT. There's no way to PROVE he can't suddenly become Tom Brady -- other than that he doesn't have the talent of Tom Brady.

But, I'll believe it when I see it. For two or three years -- not 6 games.

He's playing VERY WELL within the system. The team CAN win a lot of games with that kind of QB -- so long as the defense is very strong.

But, will he progress to become a QB of the same caliber as Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, Tom Brady? Those guys are elite QBs.

Any season the rest of their team is playing as well as they do, the team has a chance to win a SB.

Peyton Manning only won 1 SB? That's because his defense wasn't up to the job, except that one year. THIS year they are playing almost as well as the Broncos defense, which means they are the favorite to win the SB.

1. Orton has a stronger arm than either Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. In
other words, so do Manning and Brady lack "elite" arm strength. So did Joe
Montana. So did Fran Tarkenton. So did Bart Starr. Please STOP this "lacks
elite arm strength."

2. Orton is only six games into his THIRD year on the field. He has only two
complete seasons on the field. If you think a year watching football counts
toward experience as a QB, then why am I not in the HOF?--I've watched
QBs play football for more than 50 years!

3. Orton has TERRIFIC pocket presence. That he doesn't is a figment of YOUR
imagination. That is one of the virtues McDaniels' listed when describing Orton
after the trade. Orton has proven that already in this play this year.

4. Neither Manning nor Brady is particularly fast. I guess, then, they're not
"elite," either, are they? Oh, and Unitas wasn't particularly fast, either.

5. Yes, Orton is playing very well within this system. The fact is, allllllll QBs are
"system" QBs. There is not a QB in history that could have played without a
system. This is football--eleven players at a time on the field---not tennis.
This idea of "system" QB is absolutely asinine. Even McDaniels implied as much
in a recent interview.

I don't know where people such as you and Ravage get the idea Orton hasn't
proved anything. He was good enough out of high school to be recruited by
a MAJOR QB school, who had produced several other NAME QBs. He was
successful while in college. He was successful in the two years he actually
played on the field in the pros--without the supporting cast he enjoys today.
He did NOT have particularly good defense last year: They were #30 in pass
defense. He did NOT have a particularly good running game: They were #27
in YPC. Yet he still did a good job, even though he played with a high ankle
sprain the last half of last year.

You make out as if we're silly to consider Orton a very good QB. Anyone who
cannot see that he is, is the silly one. Oh, and I guess McDaniels is silly, isn't
he? He considers Orton a very good QB.

Oh well, I guess the blind will lead the blind. But you won't lead me because I
am not blind. ;)

-----

[Denver Native (Carol)]

This team is first built around a GREAT HC's ability to game plan differently every game - to game plan around the team they are playing. And he has instilled a TEAM philosophy - whether it be among the coaches or players. If each and every coach and player do what they need to do - you DON'T need to put the burden on an individual player, or a few players.

A very interesting comment from Champ a few days ago"

"Games are won during the week - based on preparation - not on Sundays"

[Lonestar]

This team is first built around a GREAT HC's ability to game plan differently every game - to game plan around the team they are playing. And he has instilled a TEAM philosophy - whether it be among the coaches or players. If each and every coach and player do what they need to do - you DON'T need to put the burden on an individual player, or a few players.

A very interesting comment from Champ a few days ago"

"Games are won during the week - based on preparation - not on Sundays"



I saw that last week and had to wonder what he thought about the past couple of seasons..

when DID he think we lost those games..

[Cugel]

1. Orton has a stronger arm than either Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. In other words, so do Manning and Brady lack "elite" arm strength. So did Joe Montana. So did Fran Tarkenton. So did Bart Starr. Please STOP this "lacks elite arm strength."

2. Orton is only six games into his THIRD year on the field. He has only two
complete seasons on the field. If you think a year watching football counts
toward experience as a QB, then why am I not in the HOF?--I've watched
QBs play football for more than 50 years!

3. Orton has TERRIFIC pocket presence. That he doesn't is a figment of YOUR imagination. That is one of the virtues McDaniels' listed when describing Orton after the trade. Orton has proven that already in this play this year.

4. Neither Manning nor Brady is particularly fast. I guess, then, they're not
"elite," either, are they? Oh, and Unitas wasn't particularly fast, either.

5. Yes, Orton is playing very well within this system. The fact is, allllllll QBs are "system" QBs. There is not a QB in history that could have played without a system. This is football--eleven players at a time on the field---not tennis.

This idea of "system" QB is absolutely asinine. Even McDaniels implied as much in a recent interview.

I don't know where people such as you and Ravage get the idea Orton hasn't
proved anything.

You make out as if we're silly to consider Orton a very good QB. Anyone who
cannot see that he is, is the silly one. Oh, and I guess McDaniels is silly, isn't
he? He considers Orton a very good QB.

Oh well, I guess the blind will lead the blind. But you won't lead me because I
am not blind. ;)

I'm not sure what your complaint is. Orton IS playing well.

Is he considered an "elite QB" by anybody outside Denver? No.

Does he have great arm strength? NO. Why do you think he was drafted in the 4th round when elite QBs like Roethlisberer, Manning, Manning, and Phillip Rivers were 1st rounders?

"Brian Griese has as strong an arm as Joe Montana!" Sound familiar? :coffee:

Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr. That's a totally different era. The modern rules and 16 game season hadn't been invented yet and Joe Montana was Joe Montana. There's never been another just like him, and it's doubtful there ever will be. Let's not waste time pretending (as Shanny did in 2001) that because Joe Montana didn't have great arm strength a QB who ISN'T Joe Montana can get by in the 2000's without it.

Shanny gave up on that idea when he got rid of Griese. Why do you think he drafted Jay Cutler? If arm strength isn't considered so important by NFL GMs, why did the Titans make Vince Young the #2 pick? (Vince managed to play his way out of a job, but it wasn't just the Titans who had him as a top 10 pick). Does the average fan know something that NFL GMs who are paid $ millions to select players don't know? :coffee:

Teams in the 70's and 80's could win (as I pointed out) by running the football, stuffing the run and playing sound defense. Not anymore as the last couple of decades have proven.

Would a team like the '83 Redskins with Joe Theisman at QB, the "Hogs" OL and John Riggins have won a SB today? Not likely. Same thing with the '84 Raiders who won with Marcus Allen. That's not even mentioning the 60's and 70's teams like the Miami Dolphins, etc. that played in a league so different you just can't compare it. It's a passing league now and it just wasn't back then.

The same year as the '77 Orange Crush, the Atlanta Falcons gave up only 129 points, 43 less than the 2000 Ravens who are universally considered the greatest defense of the modern era and who won a SB. The Falcons won 7 games that year and didn't get within sniffing distance of the playoffs. Different era.

I doubt there is anyone in the NFL who would argue that Kyle Orton is or will ever be as talented a QB as Tom Brady. As for him having a stronger arm than Peyton Manning. He flat doesn't. Manning is MUCH more accurate on longer throws. And not just over a six game period.

There's just no point in even mentioning Manning and Orton in the same paragraph.

Top: If you really believe that Orton will ever be considered in the same class as Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, or Peyton Manning, you can go on believing it. But, you won't find anybody who's not a Broncos fan who will ever agree with you. Certainly NO NFL GM or Coach would agree with that. Those guys were or will all be Hall of Famers.

I'd say that Orton's chances of ever gracing the HOF are about zero. And there wouldn't be much argument anywhere outside Denver about that one. he's in his 5th season. No signs yet of a HOF career. :coffee:

Well, an elite pro-bowl or HOF QB is pretty much what it takes to win the SB these days and there's no contrary evidence in the last 17 years as I've pointed out.

Unless you want to count the 2000 Ravens or the 2002 Bucs -- as I aksi pointed out, and we all know why those teams won.

Can Orton be good as a "system QB?" Sure. Why not? Can he win a playoff game? Who knows? Most QBs in the league that have any success ARE system QBs. By definition not everybody can be elite or top 10.

If you put a guy like Orton in a system that gives him a chance to succeed by having a great OL like Denver does, and then provide him with a great defense (like the 2009 Broncos are playing right now) and don't ask him to do too much -- then he can succeed. And he has.

He's made the most of his opportunity which is more than I expected, and probably more than most NFL experts expected too.

Many NFL QBs could succeed with those advantages. Does that mean he sucks? No.

Can he win a SB? History says no. Will he ever be considered an elite QB? Probably not.

He looks a lot like Brian Griese to me, except that Orton has a better OL right now and the Broncos have a MUCH better defense than the 2000-01 team.

And Brian Griese led the team to the playoffs and went to the pro-bowl after throwing 19 TDs and only 4 Ints one season. How well did that work out? :coffee:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-28-bears-kyle-orton-broncos-aug28,0,1052271.column

The Broncos offense is considerably more ambitious and complicated than the scheme in which Orton played with the Bears.

Broncos center Casey Wiegmann, a veteran of 14 NFL seasons, says this by far is the most complex offense he has played in. But Orton has grasped it quickly.

"He has picked up the offense really well," Wiegmann said. "He very rarely makes a mistake."

Orton acknowledges it was a struggle to learn it, a direct derivative of the Patriots offense, after being in the same Chicago offense for four years. But he said he now feels very comfortable after nearly five months.

And he believes the offense will bring out his best.

"In Chicago we did what we did and just tried to do everything better than the other team," he said. "Here we change more week to week. One week we are a passing team, the next we are a running team. We try to change things up."

Broncos coach Josh McDaniels identified Orton's ability to operate a complex offense when he was considering trading Jay Cutler. So the Bears have Orton's brains to thank for Cutler.

"You could tell on film he was smart," McDaniels said. "He had a lot of responsibility mentally in the Chicago offense. He was doing a lot of things at the line of scrimmage. There aren't too many players I would feel like we could just plug them in and they would pick things up like this. It's not a normal deal."

McDaniels saw more in Orton than a sound mind.

"You also look at the skill set and say what would that look like in our offense?" he said. "Our offense is totally different than most offenses in this league, certainly different than the one they use in Chicago. I feel like that guy in this system is going to be a different player and a good player."

Much has been made of Orton's arm strength, or the lack of it. To believe some, he couldn't throw a pebble through a wet tissue.

While Orton's arm is nowhere near as strong as Cutler's, it is strong enough for what he will be asked to do, McDaniels says.

"If he can make the throws accurately we want him to make in our offense, then to me he has a good arm," he said. "I don't worry about if he can throw the 28-yard in cut. There aren't too many people who can do things like that. John Elway was a different breed."

McDaniels is running the Denver offense, and he's also the de facto quarterbacks coach. Orton gets a lot of one-on-one time with the man who helped develop Tom Brady and Matt Cassel in New England.

"He is very knowledgeable," Orton said. "I thought I was a smart player when I came here, but I have progressed as much mentally as I have physically."

One of the reasons Orton has evolved is he dived into the Broncos pool and rarely came up for a breath of air. After the Bears traded him on a Thursday afternoon, he flew to Denver on Friday morning.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/10/11/week5/index.html

As impressed as I am with Josh McDaniels in the wake of his 20-17 overtime victory over his mentor, Bill Belichick (I detailed much of that in last week's column), I'm just as impressed with Orton. Will it last? I don't know. Will the bubble burst? I don't know. But right now, he's every bit the surprising find to McDaniels' Denver team as Tom Brady was to the Patriots in 2001.

Underline this and put it in your mental bold print: I'm not saying Orton is as good as Brady or ever will be; what I am saying is that he's doing for the Broncos in 2009 what Brady did when Drew Bledsoe went down with an injury in 2001. Brady led the Patriots to a Super Bowl win no one saw coming. Can you sit there right now and say Orton might not do the same thing?

Exhibit A: Sunday at Invesco Field at Mile High (what a silly stadium moniker), Orton led the Broncos on scoring drives of 90, 66, 98 and 58 yards. With 10 minutes left in the game, New England led 17-10, and Denver was starting at its own 2. The Broncos weren't going to have many more chances -- two, maybe -- and Orton knew the significance when he went out to the huddle.

"We'd had a 95-yard drive earlier,'' Orton told me last night. (Actually, it was 90.) "And after we scored on that drive, I never had so much confidence in us as an offense before. It was a big game and we made a big drive. So here we were at the 2, and I got in the huddle and said, 'We did it once for 95 yards. What's three yards more?' '' And that was it for the inspiration.

The Patriots D looked gassed, even though it had been on the field for a reasonable 46 snaps to that point. But Orton only needed one third-down conversion and four and a half minutes to buzz down the field. He got 27 yards on a smart screen to Knowshon Moreno to put Denver into New England territory. On first down from the Pats' 11, New England thought Brandon Marshall would run a fade in the end zone. Instead, McDaniels called for a fade/stop, with Marshall selling the fade and stopping short. Orton threw it to him near the goal line, and Marshall used his leverage to pry away from a defender and score.

"It was a big win,'' Orton said, "but what I liked was we prepared like we'd prepare for any game, like it was any other week. Josh does a good job of that. They create a lot of problems for an offense, and we spent the whole week on that, not on any of the stuff surrounding the game. We put a plan together this week to try to beat New England, which is different from the other game plans we've had, and I'm sure this coming week will be different. That's the way we play, the way we prepare.''

I reminded Orton of his first game with Denver, when the city was apoplectic after he threw three first-half interceptions in a Broncos' preseason game at San Francisco. Joe Bronco was petrified that they'd gotten shafted in the trade with Chicago, and the franchise would never recover from losing Jay Cutler. Well, here we are five weeks into the season. Cutler's a 64-percent passer, averaging 225 yards a game, with a plus-three TD-to-interception differential and passer rating of 89.3. Orton: 63 percent, 247 yards a game, plus-six, 97.4 rating.

"I just thought about that this week,'' Orton said. "And I actually took that as a positive. I'm serious. There was a lot of doubt about me locally, but not from the coach. It was great to have a game like that and have the coach back me the way he did, with no reservations. That's the first time in my career that ever happened to me. I know my game. I'm not a turnover guy. Now I had a coach who knew I wasn't either.''

As long as he's not a turnover guy -- Orton's first pick of the year came on a Hail Mary throw at the end of the first half Sunday -- the Broncos will be a contending offense.

[Northman]

Well.. first off..... I think the "QB RATING" stat.. is the most ridiculous stat in the NFL right now. I think its completely useless. I don't think it tells the story in any way shape or form of how the QB is playing ...relative to the game or team. I mean, just look at Elway's lifetime "QB Rating".. and tell me if thats accurate in how you would judge his effectiveness on a game.




Great point. But i can also say looking at Jay's play that he is not the next big thing yet. He is in no way even close to Elway in terms of taking over a game and getting the job done. Ive seen plenty of QB's with impressive arms who end up being failures so while you may discount stats as one of your ways to establish a great quarterback i also look at what i see on the field in terms of leadership, execution, and progression. Right now Jay Cutler does not fit the mold of any of those.

[Northman]

k.

I'm not saying he's a bad QB by any means... just saying that I've watched quite a bit of the Ravens games.. and although he's decent, I don't see him as a future franchise QB. But, as always.. we'll see

Well, certainly people can look at different things and come away with different opinions. Im a bit baffled how you can throw Cutler into the "elite" class or at least into the "great" crowd when he is very careless with the ball while Flacco plays with much better poise and ball control. Flacco to me has a great arm as well and has been far more impressive from his respective position than Cutler to me. Cutler has the prettier stats but we both know it goes well beyond that when determining a solid QB.

[Cugel]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-28-bears-kyle-orton-broncos-aug28,0,1052271.column

The Broncos offense is considerably more ambitious and complicated than the scheme in which Orton played with the Bears.

Broncos center Casey Wiegmann, a veteran of 14 NFL seasons, says this by far is the most complex offense he has played in. But Orton has grasped it quickly.

"He has picked up the offense really well," Wiegmann said. "He very rarely makes a mistake."

Orton is smart, (except when he's chugging whiskey without his shirt on at some party with a bimbo wrapped around his arm I guess)

That's his strong-point. That's called "reading your progressions well" something I mentioned in my first post in this thread.

He's reading the defense well and knows where to try and throw the ball.

That's all good.

That was what they said about Brian Griese too (Broncos fans will remember how much was made of his high score on the Wonderlic exam) and how much ink was wasted on how well he read his progressions and threw the ball away rather than making the risky throw. :coffee:

All the things Broncos fans are raving about Orton right now were said about Brian Griese in 2000! "How smart! How accurate. How well he reads defenses! How good decisions he makes. How he hardly ever throws a pick! He's proof you don't need a strong-armed QB to succeed in the NFL!" :coffee:

I'm sorry, but I've been through all that before. This team is better than that one, so they could go farther. But, was Brian Griese the answer? Why should Orton be any different? :coffee:

[Northman]

Lets not get into that AFCCG again.. there were a LOT of things wrong with the team, and no one player has the blame for that loss. But that was only part of why Plummer was let go. YOu watch the game film and watch how Jaws points out allt he completely wrong reads Plummer makes, and you can see that Shanahan was ready to find a QB that was willing to spend more time in the film room in preparation. That was the demise of Jake's run. That, and he just could not pass from the pocket.


Interesting take here. Yea, i agree that Jake had his limitations as a QB and the one major glaring one was turnovers. Some were by his bad reads and some were by letdowns from the Oline or other players. However, throughout Jake's career he was a turnover machine. Ironically, a guy like Jay comes in who has better tools to work with but unfortuantely he too has a similiar glaring problem. Turning the ball over. Right now, Jay Cutler literally has more in common with Daunte Culpepper than he does with Peyton Manning. So,i guess i have to ask since you brought it up. If Jake's lack of taking care of the ball was eventually his demise will it also be Jay's demise for his inability to take care of the ball? I think so.

[Northman]

I'm sorry, but I've been through all that before. This team is better than that one, so they could go farther. But, was Brian Griese the answer? Why should Orton be any different? :coffee:

I personally dont think they are much different. However, sometimes a coach can be all the difference a Qb needs. I believe Shanahan tried too hard with Griese and the pressure was far too much for him too handle following Elway. Jake to me was just a guy who liked playing but didnt want to put any extra work in. Then, Jay came in and was allowed to pretty much do whatever he wanted because he had better tools than the two previous guys. Problem is, the maturation process is not there to go along with it. Fact is, not every Qb is the same and the general idea is "if" Orton can continue to progress and play well he can be something more than he was when he was constantly in and out of lineups in Chi-town or playing with less talent on the offensive end of that team. Time will tell but it will take more than the 6 games to determine my belief one way or the other.

[topscribe]

Is he considered an "elite QB" by anybody outside Denver? No.

Does he have great arm strength? NO. Why do you think he was drafted in the 4th round when elite QBs like Roethlisberer, Manning, Manning, and Phillip Rivers were 1st rounders?

Could it be for the same reason Brady was drafted in the 6th round, or Unitas
in the 9th round, or Starr in the 17th round?



"Brian Griese has as strong an arm as Joe Montana!" Sound familiar?

YOU are the one who brought up arm strength. You implied that Orton has no
chance at being an "elite" QB because is he "lacks elite arm strength or
athleticism." I simply pointed out that Manning and Brady, the two QBs
considered today the best in the business, also lack "elite" arm strength. I
also pointed out that they lack elite athleticism.

But nice twist, anyway. Spoken like a true attorney . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif



Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr. That's a totally different era. The modern rules and 16 game season hadn't been invented yet and Joe Montana was Joe Montana. There's never been another just like him, and it's doubtful there ever will be. Let's not waste time pretending (as Shanny did in 2001) that because Joe Montana didn't have great arm strength a QB who ISN'T Joe Montana can get by in the 2000's without it.

But Manning and Brady are in THIS era. :whoknows: And Manning is Manning.
And Brady is Brady. What's your point?



Shanny gave up on that idea when he got rid of Griese. Why do you think he drafted Jay Cutler? If arm strength isn't considered so important by NFL GMs, why did the Titans make Vince Young the #2 pick? (Vince managed to play his way out of a job, but it wasn't just the Titans who had him as a top 10 pick). Does the average fan know something that NFL GMs who are paid $ millions to select players don't know?

But then, VY just demonstrated that all the pundits can be wrong, didn't he?

But I guess you may be right about arm strength. On that basis, the Broncos
should have forgotten about Orton and gone after Jeff George . . . wherever
he is . . .



Teams in the 70's and 80's could win (as I pointed out) by running the football, stuffing the run and playing sound defense. Not anymore as the last couple of decades have proven.

Wow, are you out of touch!! Several times, McDaniels himself has said that
the formula for winning is running the football, stopping the run, and playing
sound defense. In fact, Ravens coach Fisher said the same thing just his
week. I suggest you communicate this insight of yours to them. Maybe you
can help them become more successful.



Would a team like the '83 Redskins with Joe Theisman at QB, the "Hogs" OL and John Riggins have won a SB today? Not likely. Same thing with the '84 Raiders who won with Marcus Allen. That's not even mentioning the 60's and 70's teams like the Miami Dolphins, etc. that played in a league so different you just can't compare it. It's a passing league now and it just wasn't back then.

That is your speculation. I'm not into speculation.



The same year as the '77 Orange Crush, the Atlanta Falcons gave up only 129 points, 43 less than the 2000 Ravens who are universally considered the greatest defense of the modern era and who won a SB. The Falcons won 7 games that year and didn't get within sniffing distance of the playoffs. Different era.

Hmmm . . . great for trivia. Where's the relevance?



I doubt there is anyone in the NFL who would argue that Kyle Orton is or will ever be as talented a QB as Tom Brady. As for him having a stronger arm than Peyton Manning. He flat doesn't. Manning is MUCH more accurate on longer throws. And not just over a six game period.

There's just no point in even mentioning Manning and Orton in the same paragraph.

Manning, Orton, Manning, Orton . . . doesn't bother me any.

And again, this "will ever be" doesn't cut it. That is speculation. It's interesting
that you brought up Orton's 4th round selection. Since Brady was drafted in
the 6th round, the Orton has to be better than Brady . . . oh, and so is Ryan
Leaf . . . the #1 overall pick in his draft class.



Top: If you really believe that Orton will ever be considered in the same class as Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, or Peyton Manning, you can go on believing it. But, you won't find anybody who's not a Broncos fan who will ever agree with you. Certainly NO NFL GM or Coach would agree with that. Those guys were or will all be Hall of Famers.

Please don't pull that lawyer crap by putting words into my mouth. When did
I ever speculate that Orton would be considered "in the same class as Aikman,
Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, Brady, or Peyton Manning"?



I'd say that Orton's chances of ever gracing the HOF are about zero. And there wouldn't be much argument anywhere outside Denver about that one. he's in his 5th season. No signs yet of a HOF career.

Fine. So with whom are you arguing here?






And Brian Griese led the team to the playoffs and went to the pro-bowl after throwing 19 TDs and only 4 Ints one season. How well did that work out? :coffee:

[I]Before Griese's shoulder injury or after? Before, he was a Pro Bowl QB with the
highest QB rating in the league. Since his injury, he has never been the same.
So if Orton reminds you of Griese before his injury, that is a very good thing.

-----

[TXBRONC]

Can he win a SB? History says no. Will he ever be considered an elite QB? Probably not.

With all do respect Cugel history does say that a team can win the Super Bowl with a quarterback that is not elite. Regardless of era or the rule changes that have been implemented over time.

Stabler

Plunkett (2X)

Theismann

Williams

Rypien

Simms

Hoesteller

Johnson

Dilfer

That's 10 Super Bowl victories by non elite quarterbacks since 1976. It doesn't happen a lot nevertheless it does happen and it's happened every decade since the seventies.

Also while you put Warner in the elite category (if I remember right) I don't know that I would because the talent that he has been surrounded by and systems that he has been in.

So really even if Orton is solid but not elite quarterback it is possible for him to get the bling.

Just one thing, this post isn't intended to pile on.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Orton is smart, (except when he's chugging whiskey without his shirt on at some party with a bimbo wrapped around his arm I guess)

That's his strong-point. That's called "reading your progressions well" something I mentioned in my first post in this thread.

He's reading the defense well and knows where to try and throw the ball.

That's all good.

That was what they said about Brian Griese too (Broncos fans will remember how much was made of his high score on the Wonderlic exam) and how much ink was wasted on how well he read his progressions and threw the ball away rather than making the risky throw. :coffee:

All the things Broncos fans are raving about Orton right now were said about Brian Griese in 2000! "How smart! How accurate. How well he reads defenses! How good decisions he makes. How he hardly ever throws a pick! He's proof you don't need a strong-armed QB to succeed in the NFL!" :coffee:

I'm sorry, but I've been through all that before. This team is better than that one, so they could go farther. But, was Brian Griese the answer? Why should Orton be any different? :coffee:

Guess we will never know about how good Griese could have been, with a coach like Josh.

Let's see - Orton is not only on a team who is 6 - 0, but who has played a MAJOR role on the offensive side of the ball, AND HE IS STILL BEING DOUBTED What DIFFERENCE does it make how a QB gets it done - the IMPORTANT thing is that KYLE GETS IT DONE. He is not worried about "style points", he is not worried about NOT being known as a gunslinger - He WANTS to WIN - AND HE IS WINNING - that definitely is good enough for me.

[rcsodak]

I don't get why people think that Orton will actually regress a bit from his stellar play through six games. He has proven that he can read the defense consistently, he can make all the throws (maybe not with as much velocity as Cutler or Favre, but his arm strength is on par with Manning and Brady), he can fit the ball into tight windows, he is disciplined enough to take what the defense gives him and throw the ball away when he needs to, he is a proven leader of men (backed up by what his Chicago and Denver teammates say about him), and he has not even been in this system for half a season yet.

Call me crazy, but I see some upside here...

Exactly! But because certain fans weren't "involved" in his getting drafted, they will never accept him.
Just like Jake....he was an 'import'...and he had baggage. Any accolades he came to Denver with, was STRICTLY because of Chi's defense.

Remember, they've already been through the jay/Jake wars....and got to pump up their chests after all was said and done. The LAST thing they thought would happen, was for him to be traded away, especially for somebody of 'lesser' skills.

No rocket arm.....not fleet of foot.....did I mention no rocket arm?

In their eyes, it was jay's team...and he just needed a defense.

Never mind the constant brainfarts he'd have, early int's/late int's/redzone td's/pick 6's/fumbles/high-hard ones. Their excuses were "he's still young/learning. But LOOK at that arm, will ya?"

They had 'skin in the fight' when it came to jay. They pumped him up to such a point that there was no coming back down.....not and save face.

They'd rather just stay in the shadows...and wait.......

.....wait until jay does something grand, and Kyle doesn't.

Then........THEN...they'll be heard!

ps. hi rav...glad somebody got a hold of you. and don't worry...NONE of this was aimed at you. :wink:

[rcsodak]

I think people get too emotionally wrapped up with the players on their favorite team, and sometimes aren't able to step back and just be a bit realistic.

LMAO!

I was going to go point by point in your arguments, and show how hypocritical you are/have been. And point out how you're attempting to backhandedly criticize, just to cover your butt should/when Kyle succeeds.

But instead....I've decided to just clip this one...little...sentence from all of your subsequent posts since you were notified of this thread.

Really...I think it explains itself.....and maybe more, to others. :cool:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/jay-cutler-superstar/2009/10/kyle-orton-is-shocking-the-world.html

And a hush fell over the Chicagoland area. The Broncos and Kyle Orton beat Tom Brady and the Patriots. And this time the role of Captain Comeback was played -- spot on -- by Kyle Orton, former Bear.

To be sure, Orton has been the beneficiary of some great luck and great plays by his receivers. The defense in Denver has been phenomenal. But it's time to give the man his props. Kyle Orton played an incredible game today. The Broncos are 5-0. And Orton is a big reason they are.

It's often said that if at the end of the season you're 9-7, then you're a 9-7 team. The meaning being that it all evens out over 16 games. You get some lucky breaks in the beginning? It rarely stays that way. So are the Broncos truly a 5-0 team then? Yes. For now.

Most people thought that the Dallas and New England games would start the evening out process. It didn't. The rest of the Broncos schedule looks like this:

[rcsodak]

Wait.. after re-reading this. You are saying that what Orton has provided is no INTs... not putting up points... but, not turning the ball over. Sounds to me that you are describing a 'game manager'.....yet thats a term we aren't supposed to use with Orton, for that would be insulting.

When considering P Manning is THE best at managing a game, I hardly think it's insulting.

Only for those *you?* that WANT it to be an insult.

[rcsodak]

Orton is smart, (except when he's chugging whiskey without his shirt on at some party with a bimbo wrapped around his arm I guess)

That's his strong-point. That's called "reading your progressions well" something I mentioned in my first post in this thread.

He's reading the defense well and knows where to try and throw the ball.

That's all good.

That was what they said about Brian Griese too (Broncos fans will remember how much was made of his high score on the Wonderlic exam) and how much ink was wasted on how well he read his progressions and threw the ball away rather than making the risky throw. :coffee:

All the things Broncos fans are raving about Orton right now were said about Brian Griese in 2000! "How smart! How accurate. How well he reads defenses! How good decisions he makes. How he hardly ever throws a pick! He's proof you don't need a strong-armed QB to succeed in the NFL!" :coffee:

I'm sorry, but I've been through all that before. This team is better than that one, so they could go farther. But, was Brian Griese the answer? Why should Orton be any different? :coffee:

You and your comparing....drives me nuts!

Why, just because a tendency is the same between two people, why are they then THE SAME?

Kyle is NO griese. But of course, if it makes your 'point', go with it, cuge.

It's sad, really, to have to rely on 'what-ifs' to disparage a player.

Orton has done NOTHING wrong, to date. What, exactly, does partying back in the day, have ANYTHING to do with his play? I mean, seriously?

What I know, is currently, Kyle has the HIGHEST QB rating in the 4th qtr, in the NFL. I'd say that's quite an accomplishment...and is HIGHLY pertinent in their being undefeated.

[Dreadnought]

Shanny gave up on that idea when he got rid of Griese. Why do you think he drafted Jay Cutler? If arm strength isn't considered so important by NFL GMs, why did the Titans make Vince Young the #2 pick? (Vince managed to play his way out of a job, but it wasn't just the Titans who had him as a top 10 pick). Does the average fan know something that NFL GMs who are paid $ millions to select players don't know?

I agreed with most of your post, but....


Griese suffered that shoulder injury in 2000 that robbed him of even more arm zip than he had. I think Griese could have been a stellar QB, barring the injury, and barring his own emotional fragility. Yes, I know - that's a big what if, but the point is I think he was a potential Superbowl QB. Except that he wasn't. It wasn't arm strength that did him in though, because he had enough to play in this league.

As to Vince Young being a Top ten pick? I agree a lot of people rated him there. A lot of people sit on the shores of Loch Ness awaiting the first concrete proof that the monster really exists too. In this case its the quest for the mythical running QB that people who ought to know better fall for every few years. It never pans out, never will, and they'd be advised to spend their time searching for unicorns instead.

[silkamilkamonico]

People can spin the Orton argument any way they want. It is very well likely that he is turning into a very good QB.

Don't believe me? Ask Drew Brees.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I will be the first to ADMIT that when Shanahan was fired - I WAS TOTALLY SHOCKED, and then when I heard that Coach McD was interested in Cassell, I was UPSET until I heard more/read more.

BUT NOW - the BRONCOS ARE 6 - 0 - WHATEVER UPSET ANYONE WAY BACK WHEN - should not even come into the picture now ------ THE BRONCOS ARE 6 - 0 WITHOUT SHANAHAN AND WITHOUT CUTLER


ENJOY IT!!!!!!!

[rcsodak]

I agreed with most of your post, but....


Griese suffered that shoulder injury in 2000 that robbed him of even more arm zip than he had. I think Griese could have been a stellar QB, barring the injury, and barring his own emotional fragility. Yes, I know - that's a big what if, but the point is I think he was a potential Superbowl QB. Except that he wasn't. It wasn't arm strength that did him in though, because he had enough to play in this league.

As to Vince Young being a Top ten pick? I agree a lot of people rated him there. A lot of people sit on the shores of Loch Ness awaiting the first concrete proof that the monster really exists too. In this case its the quest for the mythical running QB that people who ought to know better fall for every few years. It never pans out, never will, and they'd be advised to spend their time searching for unicorns instead.

Exactly! Reading Cugel's post was the first time I'd EVER heard that VY was drafted BECAUSE of his arm. lol

[Dreadnought]

Exactly! Reading Cugel's post was the first time I'd EVER heard that VY was drafted BECAUSE of his arm. lol

Well, VY does have a cannon for an arm. And he's an excellent runner. Its just every other single aspect of playing professional QB that he sucks at

[TXBRONC]

Well, VY does have a cannon for an arm. And he's an excellent runner. Its just every other single aspect of playing professional QB that he sucks at

He has some of the worst throwing mechanics that I haven ever seen.

[Lonestar]

Interesting take here. Yea, i agree that Jake had his limitations as a QB and the one major glaring one was turnovers. Some were by his bad reads and some were by letdowns from the Oline or other players. However, throughout Jake's career he was a turnover machine. Ironically, a guy like Jay comes in who has better tools to work with but unfortuantely he too has a similiar glaring problem. Turning the ball over. Right now, Jay Cutler literally has more in common with Daunte Culpepper than he does with Peyton Manning. So,i guess i have to ask since you brought it up. If Jake's lack of taking care of the ball was eventually his demise will it also be Jay's demise for his inability to take care of the ball? I think so.


actually that really can't be the reason until the final game in 2005 he had one of the lowest TD/INT ratios of his career and was at one point only a few throws away form setting NFL record of consecutive passes without a Pick..

mike saw a wunderkin available that was supposed to be the next John and could not pass on him, even though it was OUR pass rush that needed the most help with.. for that matter always had while mike was HC..

[Lonestar]

lets see bringing Griese a mental midget emotionally into a KO discussion is odd.. at best..

he was a great QB when things were going good if something happened a wr running a wrong route or if he under threw a WR he would bash himself on the bench much like jay did in more recent times..

now comparing greasy to jay other than arm strength would indeed be a better comparison..:salute:

[Shazam!]

TX, I read your post on another page and forgot where it was about 'non-elite' QBs. I don't think Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler deserve that. Unfortunately, I've seen them both play a lot of games. Hostetler and Simms were both damn good QBs. Theissman wasn't too shabby either. In NFL lore they will never be considered elite or top flight QBs, but I think of both them as a tier or so below that. Definitely above average or mediocre.

[TXBRONC]

JR, I read your post on another page and forgot where it was about 'non-elite' QBs. I don't think Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler deserve that. Unfortunately, I've seen them both play a lot of games. Hostetler and Simms were both damn good QBs. Theisman wasn't too shabby either. In NFL lore they will never be considered elite or top flight QBs, but I think of both them as a tier or so below that. Definitely above average or mediocre.

I agree all three were good quarterbacks and all three have some bling but they weren't great quarterbacks.

[Shazam!]

The Giants played @ Mile High in Nov. of '92. Hostetler was sacked 5 times and taken out on a stretcher. Since then I saw Hostetler kick the shit out of the Broncos too many times, that ****. He was 5-0 vs. Denver from '93-94. I don't have his stats in those 5 games but they were ridiculously high against that awful defense.

[GEM]

There are just sometimes that a person is too STUBBORN. Cutler continues to play like he always did. QUIT blaming the players around him and at some point come to the reality that he is what he is.

Orton came here and did the same thing he did in CHI, he wins games.

Cutler went there and did the same thing he did in DEN, he's a .500 or less qb.

[Ravage!!!]

There are just sometimes that a person is too STUBBORN. Cutler continues to play like he always did. QUIT blaming the players around him and at some point come to the reality that he is what he is.

Orton came here and did the same thing he did in CHI, he wins games.

Cutler went there and did the same thing he did in DEN, he's a .500 or less qb.

THis thread wasn't/isn't about Cutler. QUit making EVERY thing said for or against Orton ABOUT Cutler. Some day you need to just release your hate, and move on.

Yes.. Orton win when other teams don't score in the second half... you are correct.

[horsepig]

The bloom's off the rose as for Orton.

I loved Jake the Snake, but I saw games at ******* incestco field where I knew instinctively that Jake could not bring us back. Orton is the same. Wins lots of games, but can't rescue a very ****** game plan/execution.

Who could do that-Cutler, no way.

Johnny U., Staubach, Namath (maybe), & #7. A very short list. Should include Joe Montana.

Those days are over forever folks. #7 is long gone.

Who thinks Elway was the best? Madden, he saw Elway take 3 mediocre teams to SB's and get killed.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir, so just let me say, I love ******* Kyle Orton!

[Elevation inc]

lame thread......

[GEM]

THis thread wasn't/isn't about Cutler. QUit making EVERY thing said for or against Orton ABOUT Cutler. Some day you need to just release your hate, and move on.

Yes.. Orton win when other teams don't score in the second half... you are correct.

Orton won period. Something Cutler hasn't.

They are always going to go hand in hand because of the situation.

[topscribe]

THis thread wasn't/isn't about Cutler. QUit making EVERY thing said for or against Orton ABOUT Cutler. Some day you need to just release your hate, and move on.

Yes.. Orton win when other teams don't score in the second half... you are correct.

So you're saying that when Orton engineered that 90-yard drive against New
England and then turned around and engineered a 98-yard drive in the same
game, that the defense was responsible for that. Right? :coffee:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

So you're saying that when Orton engineered that 90-yard drive against New
England and then turned around and engineered a 98-yard drive in the same
game, that the defense was responsible for that. Right? :coffee:

-----

pay attention. YES.... read up.

I'm saying that the teams that Orton has led, IF the defense allowed 10points or MORE in the second half.. he's lost 11 out of 14 times. I'm saying its EASIER on ANY QB.. ANY QB.. to be safe with the ball when the other team is NOT SCORING against you. Is that really so hard to understand????

QUit being so defensive Top. This is a pretty easy concept to get. It makes it VERY VERY easy on a QB to be safe with the ball when the his defense is keeping a team COMPLETELY shut out while you ALL you have to score 10 points to win.

I'm saying. We needed JUST 10 points in the ENTIRE second half of football game to TIE the NE Patriots....because they didn't score a SINGLE point.. and we TIED them to go into OT. If the NE Patriots scored a FG, would have have still won that game? Would we have won if they simply scored a single TD in the entire second half of football??? I don't know. I'm saying that as of right now...its EASY to outscore a team in the second half when the other team is being SHUT OUT.

How is it we NEEDED these 90 yrd drives? Because we didn't score in the others? Do I not count the 5 drives we had to punt?

How hard is it to see and understand this?

Look.. the Bengals scored just a SINGLE TD and should have beaten us. We needed a 48 yrd FG and a 50 yrd FG to get on the board before our VERY lucky TD at the end.

Cleveland doesn't count. :lol: No seriously. They scored two FGs in the first quarter, and that was it for the game.

Oakland... one FG

Dallas scored 10 points in the first quarter, and didn't score again...AGAIN. WE didn't take the LEAD from those 1st quarter points until Marshall took the ball away from what could have been an INT and made a FANTASTIC TD at the end of the 4th quarter.

NE.. it was 17-7 at halftime. They didn't score a single point the entire second half while it took us the ENTIRE second half to score the remaining 10 points to tie. If NE puts a single TD in the endzone, (or a FG for that matter) the ENTIRE second half.. we STILL don't get enough points to win.

SD.. they score 20 points in the first half,. and only 3 in the entire second.

How is it that you can't see the fact that the other teams are NOT scoring in the second half is providing these wins???

Baltimore scored 10 in the third quarter. How did we fair?

Look. I'm not dooming and glooming at all. I"m not disappointed in this loss to Baltimore one bit. I'm not complaining about this game. I pointed this stuff out before the Baltimore game. Its a SIMPLE observation that its our DEFENSE that is winning these games... and how easy it is to win when the other team is NOT scoring.

Oh... here... :coffee:

[Shazam!]

I'm not dooming and glooming at all.

That's all you've been doing for months and weeks.

[topscribe]

pay attention. YES.... read up.

I'm saying that the teams that Orton has led, IF the defense allowed 10points or MORE in the second half.. he's lost 11 out of 14 times. I'm saying its EASIER on ANY QB.. ANY QB.. to be safe with the ball when the other team is NOT SCORING against you. Is that really so hard to understand????

QUit being so defensive Top. This is a pretty easy concept to get. It makes it VERY VERY easy on a QB to be safe with the ball when the his defense is keeping a team COMPLETELY shut out while you ALL you have to score 10 points to win.

I'm saying. We needed JUST 10 points in the ENTIRE second half of football game to TIE the NE Patriots....because they didn't score a SINGLE point.. and we TIED them to go into OT. If the NE Patriots scored a FG, would have have still won that game? Would we have won if they simply scored a single TD in the entire second half of football??? I don't know. I'm saying that as of right now...its EASY to outscore a team in the second half when the other team is being SHUT OUT.

How is it we NEEDED these 90 yrd drives? Because we didn't score in the others? Do I not count the 5 drives we had to punt?

How hard is it to see and understand this?

Look.. the Bengals scored just a SINGLE TD and should have beaten us. We needed a 48 yrd FG and a 50 yrd FG to get on the board before our VERY lucky TD at the end.

Cleveland doesn't count. :lol: No seriously. They scored two FGs in the first quarter, and that was it for the game.

Oakland... one FG

Dallas scored 10 points in the first quarter, and didn't score again...AGAIN. WE didn't take the LEAD from those 1st quarter points until Marshall took the ball away from what could have been an INT and made a FANTASTIC TD at the end of the 4th quarter.

NE.. it was 17-7 at halftime. They didn't score a single point the entire second half while it took us the ENTIRE second half to score the remaining 10 points to tie. If NE puts a single TD in the endzone, (or a FG for that matter) the ENTIRE second half.. we STILL don't get enough points to win.

SD.. they score 20 points in the first half,. and only 3 in the entire second.

How is it that you can't see the fact that the other teams are NOT scoring in the second half is providing these wins???

Baltimore scored 10 in the third quarter. How did we fair?

Look. I'm not dooming and glooming at all. I"m not disappointed in this loss to Baltimore one bit. I'm not complaining about this game. I pointed this stuff out before the Baltimore game. Its a SIMPLE observation that its our DEFENSE that is winning these games... and how easy it is to win when the other team is NOT scoring.

Oh... here... :coffee:

You know, you seem to be free with your accusations, either that or your
wild imagination. I've seen you accuse GEM of hating and me of being
defensive. It's like if we disagree there's something wrong with US.

You are a silly one at times. :laugh:

-----

[Shazam!]

You are a silly one at times.

Silly is the wrong word, but in light of the CoC and PR, I suppose it works.

[GEM]

THis thread wasn't/isn't about Cutler. QUit making EVERY thing said for or against Orton ABOUT Cutler. Some day you need to just release your hate, and move on.

Yes.. Orton win when other teams don't score in the second half... you are correct.

It seems I'm not the only one that needs to let something go. Cutler isn't here. Orton is. Orton is NOT Cutler so quit holding Orton up to the standards you held for Cutler. He isn't the big arm, he isn't the gunslinger. What he is a very safe qb who doesn't make costly mistakes. If that isn't good enough for you and you feel the need at every turn to downplay the guy, feel free...but when you disappear for the 6 games he plays well in and wins and then show up the 1 game he plays bad and loses...expect to be called on it.

[Ravage!!!]

It seems I'm not the only one that needs to let something go. Cutler isn't here. Orton is. Orton is NOT Cutler so quit holding Orton up to the standards you held for Cutler. He isn't the big arm, he isn't the gunslinger. What he is a very safe qb who doesn't make costly mistakes. If that isn't good enough for you and you feel the need at every turn to downplay the guy, feel free...but when you disappear for the 6 games he plays well in and wins and then show up the 1 game he plays bad and loses...expect to be called on it.

Wait a minute. First I"m told that Cutler is over-rated..and that Orton is the better QB for this team. Now, when I point out that he isn't putting up the points I'm suppose to compare Orton to.. whom? who should I compare him to?

I don't have to explain my absence to you, GEM. Just as I don't have to explain it to anyone here. You aren't my mother, despite you griping as much as she does. I was back before the loss, and made the SAME statements THEN as I am now.

If you aren't griping about Cutler, you are griping about those that do. If they aren't griping that, you are griping that those that are griping about Orton. If you they aren't griping about Orton, you are griping about something else.

I didnt compare him to Cutler in ONE single sentence. Not one. YOU are the one that continues to bring him up. YOU are the one now GRIPING about the comparisons I'm NOT making with Orton.

I've compared him to his winning record when the opposing team actually scores.. PERIOD. Nothing to do with Cutler at all. You are the on that has the problems with Cutler... not Me.

Do I have a problem with ANY QB our team may have a problem when the opposing team scores in the second half?? Yes.. yes I would. Orton or anyone else.

[Ravage!!!]

You know, you seem to be free with your accusations, either that or your
wild imagination. I've seen you accuse GEM of hating and me of being
defensive. It's like if we disagree there's something wrong with US.

You are a silly one at times. :laugh:

-----

quit being so defensive, and you won't be called on it..... :coffee:

[Watchthemiddle]

:rofl: at the title of this thread.

Pretty typical someone is setting record numbers of posts after our first loss.

Hey, I should start a thread..."WHere's Mtnman"...lol

[Watchthemiddle]

I don't know about the others, but Mtnman is not 'afraid' to show up because the team is doing well.

There are other reasons he isn't posting on here, and it has nothing to do with hiding because the team is doing well.

:rofl:

www.chicagobears.com


:laugh:

[Ravage!!!]

:rofl: at the title of this thread.

Pretty typical someone is setting record numbers of posts after our first loss.

Hey, I should start a thread..."WHere's Mtnman"...lol

If you are going to try and accuse.. say it.

I came "back" and posted in this very thread, about the VERY same thing I just got done mentioning... BEFORE the Baltimore game.

Typical is right, WtM... you are very typical indeed.

[topscribe]

quit being so defensive, and you won't be called on it..... :coffee:


If you are going to try and accuse.. say it.

I came "back" and posted in this very thread, about the VERY same thing I just got done mentioning... BEFORE the Baltimore game.

Typical is right, WtM... you are very typical indeed.


You're just on everybody's case, aren't you? :lol:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

:lol:

-----

:coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

You're just on everybody's case, aren't you? :lol:

-----

Only when they are on Mine. top... only when they are on mine :coffee:

[topscribe]

Only when they are on Mine. top... only when they are on mine :coffee:

Then you might stop and ponder why everybody is on your case . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Then you might stop and ponder why everybody is on your case . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

because I don't kiss the ring of Orton? :lol:

because I don't simply Rave about the 'fabulous' QB we have? Because I'm willing to stand up for my thoughts rather than simply following along with those that "tell" me their facts??

I don't post to be popular. Its easy to post and just go along with the crowd because thats nice and easy and no one will disagree with you. Some don't like to hear a negative observation. Some always think the QB is the perfect guy, and he ALWAYS has a strong arm :lol:

Some see through the orange colored glasses so much that the mere thought of anything other than happy happy joy joy... bothers them. I find that sad. :tsk:

[Lonestar]

Then you might stop and ponder why everybody is on your case . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thwink.gif

-----

good post..:salute:
That might be to hard for some to figure out..:salute:

[Northman]

Some always think the QB is the perfect guy, and he ALWAYS has a strong arm :lol:



Pot meet Kettle.

[KCL]

Well I guess we all know what happened to Ravage now...:laugh:

[GEM]

because I don't kiss the ring of Orton? :lol:

because I don't simply Rave about the 'fabulous' QB we have? Because I'm willing to stand up for my thoughts rather than simply following along with those that "tell" me their facts??

I don't post to be popular. Its easy to post and just go along with the crowd because thats nice and easy and no one will disagree with you. Some don't like to hear a negative observation. Some always think the QB is the perfect guy, and he ALWAYS has a strong arm :lol:

Some see through the orange colored glasses so much that the mere thought of anything other than happy happy joy joy... bothers them. I find that sad. :tsk:

No, not quite....because you've been absent the entire time they were doing well and showed up when they lost.

[Watchthemiddle]

No, not quite....because you've been absent the entire time they were doing well and showed up when they lost.

That needs to be quoted and for all to see again.

:cool:

[Watchthemiddle]

because I don't kiss the ring of CUTLER? :lol:

because I don't simply Rave about the 'fabulous' QB we have? Because I'm willing to stand up for my thoughts rather than simply following along with those that "tell" me their facts??

I don't post to be popular. Its easy to post and just go along with the crowd because thats nice and easy and no one will disagree with you. Some don't like to hear a negative observation. Some always think the QB is the perfect guy, and he ALWAYS has a strong arm :lol:

Some see through the orange colored glasses so much that the mere thought of anything other than happy happy joy joy... bothers them. I find that sad. :tsk:

Edited for accuracy..


WHere was this post when CUtler was our QB? It would have fit perfectly for him and all of his red zone int's and win/lose record. It would have gone great with him being a media driven superstar.

Where were you and your observations after our 6 wins? You don't need to explain, we know.

[Elevation inc]

i smell a witch hunt here.....so very very lame....

[Northman]

i smell a witch hunt here.....so very very lame....


:Cry::Cry::Cry::Cry:

[Poet]

Ravage, does it hurt?

[jhildebrand]

Maybe I shouldn't chime in but I will anyway.

Why all the hate on Ravage? I have followed Ravage on this forum and others for some time. His posts are usually thought out and intelligent (even though I don't always agree with him). I also know that sometimes he doesn't "tow the company line" but that very dissenting opinion is what makes these forums. It gives us something to debate and discuss. Unfortunately, it usually ends up in people piling on and flaming a person. I have had it happen to me (in fact right now) at another forum.

I guess I just don't understand it. I know I am new here but I have seen enough that I felt I could chime in. It seems it should be hard to bust on a person for giving his OPINION especially when it is a person who usually offers sound argument and facts/stats to support his point. I guess I would hope people would find a way to counter with logic rather than act like this is High School and just pile on with nonsense.

Sorry for the diatribe. I just felt it needed to be said.

[Northman]

No one hates Ravage, i have no idea where you got that from. Fact is, homeboy was missing for a few weeks and i was curious where he went. Technically, i havent seen Link in a while, i should start a thread.

[jhildebrand]

Maybe I am reading some of these posts with the wrong tone. Either way, I spoke my piece and I am going to be more cautious here to not become the constantly flamed.

[Slick]

No one on this forum has stated that Orton is Jesus in cleats. So he couldn't Elway us to a win in Baltimore...big deal. He's going try like hell to Trent Dilfer us into the playoffs. It is what it is.

[jhildebrand]

No one on this forum has stated that Orton is Jesus in cleats. So he couldn't Elway us to a win in Baltimore...big deal. He's going try like hell to Trent Dilfer us into the playoffs. It is what it is.

:beer:

Let's just win the division first.

[Slick]

:beer:

Let's just win the division first.

That wasn't a prediction. Try is the key word.

[Nomad]

No one hates Ravage, i have no idea where you got that from. Fact is, homeboy was missing for a few weeks and i was curious where he went. Technically, i havent seen Link in a while, i should start a thread.


What ever happened to fcspikeit??

[topscribe]

No one hates Ravage, i have no idea where you got that from. Fact is, homeboy was missing for a few weeks and i was curious where he went. Technically, i havent seen Link in a while, i should start a thread.

I was beginning to wonder where Chop went, but I saw a post of his this morning . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

No, not quite....because you've been absent the entire time they were doing well and showed up when they lost.

GEM... if and WHEN you are going to throw out your accusations.. please at least LOOK and research. I was HERE bfore the game of Baltimore. I was Here... in this VERY thread.. posting after our 6 wins, and BEFORE the our 1 loss. SO if you are going to spew out your accusations, TRY to at least do a bit of research.

ALso. Since you are one that feels we must check in, where do I send my "doctor's note" to be excused from posting on a message board?? I guess I wasn't presented with the notifications on the rules.

When exactly can we post? How many days PRIOR to a loss must I post before being accused of not "posting enough after wins?" How many days after a loss do I have to wait before we are allowed to post again?

Doesn't mattter, right? If we don't post something rosy and happy.. happy joy joy.... then we shouldn't be posting. Got it.

[Dreadnought]

You know what? this thread has outlived its usefulness. You know where Ravage! is? Right here. Nobody seems to be able to post in here without flinging insults around, and it now serves no other purpose, so therefore Closed.