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View Full Version : Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?



RiversSucks
01-01-2008, 05:23 PM
Can he HONESTLY turn this disastrous defense around?? What will he need to work it out? What can we expect from him in the offseason? OR will he be done here in denver? I need some answers. :sad:

Retired_Member_001
01-01-2008, 05:35 PM
Can he HONESTLY turn this disastrous defense around?? What will he need to work it out? What can we expect from him in the offseason? OR will he be done here in denver? I need some answers. :sad:

Bates will turn it around if we get better players. We didn't have good enough players this season so the sytem failed. I wouldn't blame Bates for the defense's failure.

yardog
01-01-2008, 05:37 PM
Bates might be able to turn this around IMO but with what we seen this season did he earn the right to try. I would say no.

shank
01-01-2008, 05:41 PM
Bates might be able to turn this around IMO but with what we seen this season did he earn the right to try. I would say no.

he did what he did this season with players that don't do enough to make his scheme work. his scheme worked very well in the past with different players, give him another year to get the guys he needs to make it work.

Bronco4ever
01-01-2008, 05:45 PM
Give him another year. If we don't see substantial improvements, we need to give him the ax. I didn't see any "gelling" going on this year.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 05:47 PM
Yeah if we get a real NT and let Marcus Thomas loose. Move DJ Williams back to weakside, Bring in a a real Run stuffin MLB. Then draft Kenny Phillips round 1 the defense will definitly be better if they decide to stop being soft and helping the other team guys off the ground after every tackle. Yeah grow some ____ and play with attitude and everything will be fine next year.

mopatt24
01-01-2008, 05:48 PM
Bates might be able to turn this around IMO but with what we seen this season did he earn the right to try. I would say no.

I agree, and I feel Shanahan may think the same thing.

yardog
01-01-2008, 05:49 PM
Sorry IMO he gets paid to use the players we have to stop the other team. He didn't get the job done not even close.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 05:52 PM
Sorry IMO he gets paid to use the players we have to stop the other team. He didn't get the job done not even close.

Lol so what are you saying? Even if you have bad players with some playing outta position because of Shanny. Its your fault and you should be fired? I sure hope you think Shanny should be fired because hes had his guys the last 8 years and did nothing.

yardog
01-01-2008, 05:59 PM
I'm saying Shanahan hired Bates and Heimerdinger to do a job and they both failed. I would replace them both if it was up to me.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 06:02 PM
I'm saying Shanahan hired Bates and Heimerdinger to do a job and they both failed. I would replace them both if it was up to me.

Your right, How you feel abotu Shanny though? Bowlen hired him to do a job and he has'nt done it in 8 years. Bates deserves a few more years.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 06:07 PM
Before this season Bates came in with superb reputation and resume as a defensive coordinator, I don't think one bad season means Bates or his system are crap.

yardog
01-01-2008, 06:10 PM
You and I both know Shanahan is not going anywere until he's ready to go. I'm not happy with the last 8 years as awhole but 1 AFC Championship game and the promise of Cutler buys Shanahan more time IMO.

yardog
01-01-2008, 06:14 PM
Bates: Buck stops here
The head of the defense accepts responsibility, awaits year-end meeting
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 12/31/2007 11:16:00 PM MST


Like all Broncos coaches, Jim Bates reported to work Monday and began evaluating what went wrong in 2007.

"A rough year," said Bates, head of the maligned Broncos defense. "Personally, it's as tough as any in the 38 years I've coached. It was the toughest without question."

What made it rough and tough, and maybe a tad embarrassing, was Bates had to abandon the defensive philosophy that was so intimately his in midseason. The Bates system at its core is equipped with a seven-man box. Five games into his first season with the Broncos, Bates and coach Mike Shanahan decided this unique system had to go.

The Broncos were so horrific at stopping the run, the more conventional eight-man box was employed.

One of the big questions in the Broncos' offseason concerns whether Shanahan will give Bates another chance in 2008, but there is another way to pose the question: If Bates is forbidden from coaching his system, does he want to return?
"Until we meet and evaluate everything and get a chance to sit down with Mike and go over everything as far as where we're at, I'll leave that unanswered for now," Bates said.

Shanahan and Bates are expected to meet this week.

Know who gave Bates his start as an NFL coach? Bill Belichick. It was 1991 and Belichick was just starting his failed five-year tenure with the Cleveland Browns. Bates later started coaching his seven-man box system in 1998 with the Dallas Cowboys, then took it to Miami in 2000 and Green Bay in 2005.

The Bates system moved to Denver in 2007. For five games. Then, Bates had to move from what he knew best. Was it uncomfortable for Bates to surrender his defensive formula?

"Oh yes, definitely," he said. "When you play a system for 10 years, and then to have to make a change to give your team a chance, it's tough. It was real tough. But the players handled it well and did a good job. It was a little spotty, but there were some encouraging signs as we went down the stretch. Several positions improved, especially in the last four or five games."

One position receiving a jolt of youth and promise was safety, where Hamza Abdullah replaced veteran Nick Ferguson. Abdullah laid blame for the defense's failures — the 409 points were the most allowed by the Broncos in 40 years — on the players, not Bates.

"His defenses worked wherever he's been and it worked this year," Abdullah said. "It's just we haven't come to grips with it and put together a full game. There would be times when we looked real good. It was evident (Sunday). We held Adrian Peterson to 30-something yards, but then when Chester Taylor came in we'd slack off a little and not do what we're supposed to be doing. Not filling gaps, and missing tackles."

The Broncos' defense was strange that way. It did a decent job against LaDainian Tomlinson in Week 5, but then backup tailback Michael Turner broke off a 49-yard run while the San Diego Chargers were trying to run out the first-half clock.

"I'm not going to throw the blame here and throw the blame there," Bates said. "It all starts with me. I'm the one who's the head of the defense and I'm supposed to fix things. I didn't do a good job."
Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

Scarface
01-01-2008, 06:36 PM
I hope he turns his car around and drives as fast as he can out of Denver.

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 06:37 PM
I hope he turns his car around and drives as fast as he can out of Denver.

I agree Scar. I voiced my opinion last year when he was fired. I said it would be a disaster. Then we heard the "gel" word. I laughed after the 1st pre-season game. You could tell by the 4th pre-season game there were troubles brewing.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 06:39 PM
It's really going to depend on how Shanahan feels about Bates.

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 06:44 PM
It really going to depend on how Shanahan feels about Bates.

Sure it is. I'm sure Shanny will give him another chance. I was hoping the offense would disguise this horrible scheme with a great year and we could overcome it. Then the offense became so inconsistent week after week, it was unbearable to watch at times. Nothing went right this year. It was one of the most frustrating years I experienced, only cause I expected so much better.

Broncospsycho77
01-01-2008, 06:53 PM
Definitely keep him if we get Jason Taylor. First problem we had was that nobody truly understood his wacky scheme, and then we just ditched it after what, week 6? I'm split, I really regret firing Coyer, because I thought we were real close to reaching perfection with that D, and this whole personnel and "gelling" thing (which I no longer subscribe to) raises questions about Bates' defense as a whole. If we want to run the system right, we need good athletes, not other teams' rejects like Sam Adams and Kennedy.

Get the right guys and maybe keep him. Don't ride the middle by keeping him but not getting a superstar at the line or LB.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 06:57 PM
WELL...Interestingly enough, Rex Ryan was just fired in Baltimore. He'll get to interview for the Head Coach there, but it makes an interesting debate. IF Shanny is at all unsure about Bates, does he dump him now and go after Ryan?

gobroncsnv
01-01-2008, 07:03 PM
Well just looking at the picture by your user name, I'm guessing that's Connor. Why would we need to get anyone different than Bates has to work with if the problem is only Bates??? Why would we need better players if we had Ryan?

BUT, IF OUR PLAYERS NOW AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH, why do we dump Bates?

Broncospsycho77
01-01-2008, 07:05 PM
Well just looking at the picture by your user name, I'm guessing that's Connor. Why would we need to get anyone different than Bates has to work with if the problem is only Bates??? Why would we need better players if we had Ryan?

BUT, IF OUR PLAYERS NOW AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH, why do we dump Bates?

Because right now, with the players we have, it would be easier to employ a scheme that plays to our strengths than start from square one again and play russian roulette with new talent.

slim
01-01-2008, 07:05 PM
I'm saying Shanahan hired Bates and Heimerdinger to do a job and they both failed. I would replace them both if it was up to me.

I'm with you on this. They both need to go. Bates completely overhauled the DL in the off season to fit his scheme. There is no doubt in my mind he was behind the signing of Adams and the trades of Kennedy and Warren. They asked him what he needed in order to be successful and he got what he asked for. It didn't work. In fact, he took a respectable defense and turned it into a laughingstock.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 07:06 PM
Sure it is. I'm sure Shanny will give him another chance. I was hoping the offense would disguise this horrible scheme with a great year and we could overcome it. Then the offense became so inconsistent week after week, it was unbearable to watch at times. Nothing went right this year. It was one of the most frustrating years I experienced, only cause I expected so much better.

Same here I expected more given the past but what we ended up with was a disaster.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 08:19 PM
There is a lot to be said for continuity however. How many times are we gonna call for a coordinator's head just cuz the team doesn't adjust IMMEDIATELY to yet another scheme?

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 08:21 PM
Lets dump Shanny now and go after Rex as a HC in Denver, Or somebody like Mike Singletary. Shanny is the biggest problem and the reason we dont have talented depth on this team along with talented starters all the way around, And then you mix that with poor inconsistant coaching and you get a team that declines over the years. Send Shanny to Atlanta so they can draFT Andre Woodson and he will have his new QB prospect.

Broncospsycho77
01-01-2008, 08:21 PM
There is a lot to be said for continuity however. How many times are we gonna call for a coordinator's head just cuz the team doesn't adjust IMMEDIATELY to yet another scheme?

Well, this time, we went from mediocre defense to laughing stock of the league. With Coyer and Rhodes, we were top 5 for a little bit, but then teams exposed our weaknesses (see Indy vs Roc Alexander) which shot us back down to mediocrity. With Bates thus far, we had 0 good games.

It's only rational to give him one more year, but I really didn't like the scheme from the first preseason game, so I'm biased.

I agree that we should stick to one system, I'm just convinced that Bates' two gap only found success from lucky talent.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 08:22 PM
There is a lot to be said for continuity however. How many times are we gonna call for a coordinator's head just cuz the team doesn't adjust IMMEDIATELY to yet another scheme?

I couldn't agree more. :beer:

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 08:22 PM
If we dump Shanny and bring in a Defensive minded HC like Rex Ryan and Mike Singletary. Then bring in a great OC to run the offense. We would definitly be fine from a coaching and motivation standpoints.

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 08:25 PM
There is a lot to be said for continuity however. How many times are we gonna call for a coordinator's head just cuz the team doesn't adjust IMMEDIATELY to yet another scheme?

Well good lord, at least make improvements as the year progresses. Hell we dumped the mans scheme cause it we deemed useless. We get to start all over again next year and have people learn this thing all over? This should be real exciting.

BOSSHOGG30
01-01-2008, 08:28 PM
I like Bates.... seems like a good guy and I don't doubt his coaching scheme, but I just don't think he works well with the guys we have right now and it will take too long for him to build a defense with his scheme. I think we are better off going with someone new. I also think that Slowick should be gone as well.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 08:47 PM
I like Bates.... seems like a good guy and I don't doubt his coaching scheme, but I just don't think he works well with the guys we have right now and it will take too long for him to build a defense with his scheme. I think we are better off going with someone new. I also think that Slowick should be gone as well.

Going with someone different and new scheme isn't going to assure better results.

yardog
01-01-2008, 08:47 PM
It couldn't be much worse could it?

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 08:48 PM
Well, this time, we went from mediocre defense to laughing stock of the league. With Coyer and Rhodes, we were top 5 for a little bit, but then teams exposed our weaknesses (see Indy vs Roc Alexander) which shot us back down to mediocrity. With Bates thus far, we had 0 good games.

Or until our D got so tired from being on the field for 40 minutes a game thanx to our stellar O.

slim
01-01-2008, 08:49 PM
It couldn't be much worse could it?

Hell no...anything would be an improvement.

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 08:51 PM
Or until our D got so tired from being on the field for 40 minutes a game thanx to our stellar O.

That's valid, but still when we did have leads, like Chicago and Minn, our D faltered at the end of those games. Yeah, our O could of helped a little more, but it's not like our Defense was holding leads as well. I remember all the 3rd down conversions our D gave up this year. Pathetic.

yardog
01-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Until someone shows me that there is 29 teams that have more talent on D than we do I blame Bates and Slowick. The D we had last year gets us in the palyoffs maybe we loose in the first round but me would have made a step forward.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 08:54 PM
That's valid, but still when we did have leads, like Chicago and Minn, our D faltered at the end of those games. Yeah, our O could of helped a little more, but it's not like our Defense was holding leads as well. I remember all the 3rd down conversions our D gave up this year. Pathetic.

I was actually referring more so to 2006. Our D was badass for like 10 weeks. But they were on the field for so long...

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 08:58 PM
Until someone shows me that there is 29 teams that have more talent on D than we do I blame Bates and Slowick. The D we had last year gets us in the palyoffs maybe we loose in the first round but me would have made a setep forward.

I'm not gonna compare rosters, but let's look at it shall we...

DLine-3 rookies, the most highly touted of which was hurt most of the year. Our most well rounded DE was hurt in preseason and Simeon Rice was a joke. We remove our best 2 DTs for practically nothing and actually brought in Jimmy frickin Kennedy because we felt he is better than what we have...but at least Elvis can get to the passer.

LB-DJ playing in a new position and a steaming pile...

Secondary-Champ=STUD. Bly=STUD...until the QB pump fakes. Lynch-on last legs and is out of the lineup as much as he is in it. Do we even have another Safety.

Personnel-wise, I'd put ours against the worst 5 in the league.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 08:59 PM
Until someone shows me that there is 29 teams that have more talent on D than we do I blame Bates and Slowick. The D we had last year gets us in the palyoffs maybe we loose in the first round but me would have made a step forward.

Lol if Coyer was our DC thi year we would be getting gashed the same way, Pitt showed how to expose the Blitz. Bottom line this whole thing is Shanny fault from horrible drafts and horrible position changes. Bates tryed EVERYTHING HE COULD INCLUDING CHANGES SCHEMES TO SOMETHING HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO RUN. That was probably the worst decision right there.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Kenny Phillips and Okam is a start.

dogfish
01-01-2008, 09:00 PM
i believe that he can succeed here, IF we can improve at the defensive tackle position. . .

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 09:00 PM
People rely on the draft too much to change single seasons around.

slim
01-01-2008, 09:01 PM
Lol if Coyer was our DC thi year we would be getting gashed the same way, Pitt showed how to expose the Blitz. Bottom line this whole thing is Shanny fault from horrible drafts and horrible position changes. Bates tryed EVERYTHING HE COULD INCLUDING CHANGES SCHEMES TO SOMETHING HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO RUN. That was probably the worst decision right there.

Bottom line...Bates failed. He needs to go.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 09:04 PM
People rely on the draft too much to change single seasons around.

As much as I love the draft mox and hype, etc. I at least am realistic enough to avoid the "Dude, if we drafted blank, blank and blank, better get those ring sizes." I know rookies can't be depended on and I also know that we are NOT 1 year away from legitimacy.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:04 PM
Bottom line...Bates failed. He needs to go.

Bottom line Shanny has failed for 8 years, Shoulda been gon........

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:06 PM
As much as I love the draft mox and hype, etc. I at least am realistic enough to avoid the "Dude, if we drafted blank, blank and blank, better get those ring sizes." I know rookies can't be depended on and I also know that we are NOT 1 year away from legitimacy.

Unless that rookie is Dorsey or Okam @ DT. Along with Kenny Phillips. Moving DJ back to weakside. Bringin in a FA MLB like Dansby.

slim
01-01-2008, 09:06 PM
Bottom line Shanny has failed for 8 years, Shoulda been gon........

LOL...yes, I heard that you would prefer Rex Ryan. Take a minute to think about that.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 09:07 PM
Unless that rookie is Dorsey or Okam @ DT. Along with Kenny Phillips. Moving DJ back to weakside. Bringin in a FA MLB like Dansby.

Still no. 2 rookies and a FA LB still puts us nowhere near Indy and NE.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:09 PM
LOL...yes, I heard that you would prefer Rex Ryan. Take a minute to think about that.

Id take rex Ryan but my top guys are Mike Singletary, Dallas OC, Mike Holmgren if he leaves. Then guys like Rex Ryan .

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Still no. 2 rookies and a FA LB still puts us nowhere near Indy and NE.

Are you kidding me? Were not that far away from being an elite team. We just have a head coach who cant motivate grown men in this generations player. Who has plenty picks this year in the draft, Are we gonna draft 9 and only 1 and a 1/2 pan out again under Shanny??

slim
01-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Id take rex Ryan but my top guys are Mike Singletary, Dallas OC, Mike Holmgren if he leaves. Then guys like Rex Ryan .

LOL...I like how you don't even know the name of your number two choice and your third choice is Holgmren (if he leaves)...LMFAO.

Bronco9798
01-01-2008, 09:13 PM
Jason Garret.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 09:13 PM
Are you kidding me? Were not that far away from being an elite team. We just have a head coach who cant motivate grown men in this generations player. Who has plenty picks this year in the draft, Are we gonna draft 9 and only 1 and a 1/2 pan out again under Shanny??

Did you even watch this season? The frickin Pats went undefeated and u think a few rooks and a FA OLB that the Cardinals wouldn't even pay for are gonna change the face of the league? WOW, I want what yer smoking.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:15 PM
Jason Garret.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

slim
01-01-2008, 09:17 PM
Are you kidding me? Were not that far away from being an elite team. We just have a head coach who cant motivate grown men in this generations player. Who has plenty picks this year in the draft, Are we gonna draft 9 and only 1 and a 1/2 pan out again under Shanny??

Right, grown men. If they need someone to hold their hand and motivate them, they need to go back to college. Do you think my boss massages my nads to get me motivated for the tax season? Hell no...if you can't motivate yourself, then get out.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:18 PM
Did you even watch this season? The frickin Pats went undefeated and u think a few rooks and a FA OLB that the Cardinals wouldn't even pay for are gonna change the face of the league? WOW, I want what yer smoking.

Yeah so the Pats went undeafeated whoopty doooo, You have teams who go 3-13 one year and then be 13-3 the next year kinda teams, Broncos are not worst than the Browns were last year or tampa. Impact players ar eimpact players rookies or not. And if theCards dont wanna pay Dansby then oh well thats there loss. Id take Dansby over any LB on this roster. And aslong as Shanny is the coach he has a shot to be on this team since Shanny loves bringing in other teams washed up players huh? Bottom line Broncos can compete in the AFC if the right moves are made. And we bring in a HC with some energy who can motivate players.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:21 PM
Right, grown men. If they need someone to hold their hand and motivate them, they need to go back to college. Do you think my boss massages my nads to get me motivated for the tax season? Hell no...if you can't motivate yourself, then get out.

Sorry your job is nothing like playing in the NFL, When your boss no longer believes you or you no longer believe in your boss it going to show in your performance. No matter how old you are you can always be motivated by something or somebody. This generation of players have to be motivated and pushed to max out there abilities. Playing with fire keeps you in alot of games when your offense is struggling. Look around the NFL. Broncos one of the worst defenses in the NFL this year and plays with the least fire of them also. Very soft team mentally and physically.

slim
01-01-2008, 09:22 PM
Yeah so the Pats went undeafeated whoopty doooo, You have teams who go 3-13 one year and then be 13-3 the next year kinda teams, Broncos are not worst than the Browns were last year or tampa. Impact players ar eimpact players rookies or not. And if theCards dont wanna pay Dansby then oh well thats there loss. Id take Dansby over any LB on this roster. And aslong as Shanny is the coach he has a shot to be on this team since Shanny loves bringing in other teams washed up players huh? Bottom line Broncos can compete in the AFC if the right moves are made. And we bring in a HC with some energy who can motivate players.

Dansby will be franchised. Also, grown men don't need motivation, only children do. Remind me again how old you are.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:23 PM
Giving a helping hand after you lay somebody out is not what a nasty defense does. Dont see the pats defense helping guys up, Never see Jags helping guys up, Colts, Dallas, And the list goes on. But the Broncos? Bunch of softies out there picking guys up hugging them after he gashes you for 30 yards.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 09:25 PM
Yeah so the Pats went undeafeated whoopty doooo, You have teams who go 3-13 one year and then be 13-3 the next year kinda teams, Broncos are not worst than the Browns were last year or tampa. Impact players ar eimpact players rookies or not. And if theCards dont wanna pay Dansby then oh well thats there loss. Id take Dansby over any LB on this roster. And aslong as Shanny is the coach he has a shot to be on this team since Shanny loves bringing in other teams washed up players huh? Bottom line Broncos can compete in the AFC if the right moves are made. And we bring in a HC with some energy who can motivate players.

So Tampa and Cleveland are "elite teams"...cuz you said we'd be elite and then you used a non playoff team and a 9 win division winner as yer examples. I'm confused. Improvements are 1 thing. But we are far from elite.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:25 PM
Dansby will be franchised. Also, grown men don't need motivation, only children do. Remind me again how old you are.

So when they speak and say guys like Bill Cowher, Mike singletary are great motivators there speaking on what? If you think grown men cant be motivated then wow. I guess most of us are the only ones who ever heard of coaches lighting a fire under there team.........

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:26 PM
So Tampa and Cleveland are "elite teams"...cuz you said we'd be elite and then you used a non playoff team and a 9 win division winner as yer examples. I'm confused. Improvements are 1 thing. But we are far from elite.

I said we could be an elite team next year, And when i speak on the browns and tampa i mean teams that looked dead the year before as we do now and then turn around and be right in the mix. Broncos can be elite next year with the right moves IMO.

slim
01-01-2008, 09:29 PM
So when they speak and say guys like Bill Cowher, Mike singletary are great motivators there speaking on what? If you think grown men cant be motivated then wow. I guess most of us are the only ones who ever heard of coaches lighting a fire under there team.........

LMAO...are you in high school?

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:33 PM
LMAO...are you in high school?

Yeah you pretty much just tapped out, You couldnt hang at all. Last resort was a non football post that took you 10 minutes to say **are you in highschool and then laugh at yourself* << Lol its all good though. Bottom line anybody thats believes NFL players shouldnt and cant be motivated does not know much about the game.

slim
01-01-2008, 09:36 PM
Yeah you pretty much just tapped out, You couldnt hang at all. Last resort was a non football post that took you 10 minutes to say **are you in highschool and then laugh at yourself* << Lol its all good though. Bottom line anybody thats believes NFL players shouldnt and cant be motivated does not know much about the game.

OK...you are right. Let's bring in Rex Ryan and kick Shanny to the curb. Anything else you want?

frauschieze
01-01-2008, 09:38 PM
Ummm.....doesn't Rex run a 3-4?

slim
01-01-2008, 09:39 PM
Ummm.....doesn't Rex run a 3-4?

Yes, but we try not to let facts get in our way around here.

frauschieze
01-01-2008, 09:41 PM
Yes, but we try not to let facts get in our way around here.

My bad. As you were, gentlemen.

SmilinAssasSin27
01-01-2008, 09:41 PM
I said we could be an elite team next year, And when i speak on the browns and tampa i mean teams that looked dead the year before as we do now and then turn around and be right in the mix. Broncos can be elite next year with the right moves IMO.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. The only team to really flip the script that bad was St. Louis and the Colts handed em Marshall Faulk. If Minnesota gives us AP, I'm on board w/ ya. However, I don't see that deal in the worx. So I'll just take the rest of history with my side of the argument and say that although we had the worst run D in the league, an Oline that can't stay healthy, 2 diva WRs...an injury prone rookie DT, stud rookie S and 1 OLB won't make us elite. Sorry.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:45 PM
Ummm.....doesn't Rex run a 3-4?

No actually he runs everything, Sorta like the pats? They run 3-4, 4-3, 1 man down, all types of exotic crazy stuff.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-01-2008, 09:46 PM
We'll simply have to agree to disagree. The only team to really flip the script that bad was St. Louis and the Colts handed em Marshall Faulk. If Minnesota gives us AP, I'm on board w/ ya. However, I don't see that deal in the worx. So I'll just take the rest of history with my side of the argument and say that although we had the worst run D in the league, an Oline that can't stay healthy, 2 diva WRs...an injury prone rookie DT, stud rookie S and 1 OLB won't make us elite. Sorry.

Only time will tell, But Broncos aint as bad as you think we are. Just horrible leadership and guys playing with no fire.

Lonestar
01-01-2008, 11:16 PM
Bates can turn it around, but he is gonna need a DT and at least one LB I prefer the Sam LB cause I think we have a player Windborn for Will.

Sam is not a first day slot IMO. certainly not #1.. Perhaps a FS if John Lynch decides not to come back..

Mikey asked Bates to walk on water after neglecting the DL for almost a decade via the draft.. Found out he is just a mere mortal.

broncogirl7
01-01-2008, 11:24 PM
I think we need to get rid of Bates and make an offer to Ken Norton Jr. asap before someone else does.

TXBRONC
01-01-2008, 11:29 PM
Bates can turn it around, but he is gonna need a DT and at least one LB I prefer the Sam LB cause I think we have a player Windborn for Will.

Sam is not a first day slot IMO. certainly not #1.. Perhaps a FS if John Lynch decides not to come back..

Mikey asked Bates to walk on water after neglecting the DL for almost a decade via the draft.. Found out he is just a mere mortal.

I don't recall Shanahan asking Bates to walk on water. I do however, remember someone saying "Folks there's a new sheriff in town..." and "Bates came here only because he Shanahan meet his demand to have say in player personnel." Maybe the person who said these things thought Bates walked on water but found out differently. What do you think? ;)

omac
01-02-2008, 08:19 PM
Bates can turn it around, but he is gonna need a DT and at least one LB I prefer the Sam LB cause I think we have a player Windborn for Will.

Sam is not a first day slot IMO. certainly not #1.. Perhaps a FS if John Lynch decides not to come back..

Mikey asked Bates to walk on water after neglecting the DL for almost a decade via the draft.. Found out he is just a mere mortal.

Bottomline, Bates was brought in to do a job, and he's failed. He knew the Bronco players, the team did what they could to try and get the players who best fit his scheme through the draft, free agency, and even releasing players. If he didn't think he could get the job done, he should have set the expectations straight.

After one season, the players are no better at implementing his scheme, and it stands to reason that if they decide to go through with his scheme next season, they'll be starting almost from scratch, again with probably a bunch of players who've never played in Denver before, or are even rookies.

I still say stick with Bates, though, and do everything to make his style of defense succesful, even if it means sucking at D for a while. At least with him, there's a potential for the defense to be special.

Lonestar
01-02-2008, 08:56 PM
Bottomline, Bates was brought in to do a job, and he's failed. He knew the Bronco players, the team did what they could to try and get the players who best fit his scheme through the draft, free agency, and even releasing players. If he didn't think he could get the job done, he should have set the expectations straight.

After one season, the players are no better at implementing his scheme, and it stands to reason that if they decide to go through with his scheme next season, they'll be starting almost from scratch, again with probably a bunch of players who've never played in Denver before, or are even rookies.

I still say stick with Bates, though, and do everything to make his style of defense successful, even if it means sucking at D for a while. At least with him, there's a potential for the defense to be special.


Well if he failed so did the OC OLINE coach , DL coach, St guy and the Gm hell lets fire Pat and start completely over..

His problem is the lack of the wide body that keys the system.

omac
01-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Well if he failed so did the OC OLINE coach , DL coach, St guy and the Gm hell lets fire Pat and start completely over..

His problem is the lack of the wide body that keys the system.

I agree with you, but he was in charge of the defense. The defense's shortcomings are his fault; the team's shortcomings are Mikey's fault. Bates is accountable for the defense.

BOSSHOGG30
01-02-2008, 10:07 PM
Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

I'm sure he can, but how long will Denver give him? Do we really want to wait another year or two to start seeing results?

omac
01-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Can Jim Bates turn this thing around?

I'm sure he can, but how long will Denver give him? Do we really want to wait another year or two to start seeing results?

Our offense had better score 35 points a game if that was the case. :eek:

TXBRONC
01-02-2008, 10:20 PM
Bottomline, Bates was brought in to do a job, and he's failed. He knew the Bronco players, the team did what they could to try and get the players who best fit his scheme through the draft, free agency, and even releasing players. If he didn't think he could get the job done, he should have set the expectations straight.

After one season, the players are no better at implementing his scheme, and it stands to reason that if they decide to go through with his scheme next season, they'll be starting almost from scratch, again with probably a bunch of players who've never played in Denver before, or are even rookies.

I still say stick with Bates, though, and do everything to make his style of defense succesful, even if it means sucking at D for a while. At least with him, there's a potential for the defense to be special.

I agree that Bates should not be let go.

There will probably be enough hold overs from this years defense that it shouldn't starting from scratch. Ekuban (assuming he's healthy), Peterson, McKinley, Moss, Crowder, Thomas, Bailey, Bly, Abdullah, and Engleberger to name a few.

sanluis
01-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Can he HONESTLY turn this disastrous defense around?? What will he need to work it out? What can we expect from him in the offseason? OR will he be done here in denver? I need some answers. :sad:

Well Mr. Sucks,
I don't know if he is the right man for the job. He brought in a bunch of his players and things did not turn out very well. All of Denver's first day picks from last years draft would have to have brake out seasons. I don't think Bates scheme is really very good. Still it takes more than just one season to over haul a Defense in most cases and in Denver's it could take a few.

Lonestar
01-03-2008, 03:38 AM
Well Mr. Sucks,
I don't know if he is the right man for the job. He brought in a bunch of his players and things did not turn out very well. All of Denver's first day picks from last years draft would have to have brake out seasons. I don't think Bates scheme is really very good. Still it takes more than just one season to over haul a Defense in most cases and in Denver's it could take a few.

Regardless of who is in charge DEN defense would suck..

The DL has been neglected for almost a decade in the draft , it has survived only on mostly hand me downs since Price was drafted in 1998 I think it was.. Beyond that a no meaningful first day pick has been made on it..

You live and die in the trenches. NOW mikey has to live with his lack of concern. Might take another two years to bring it back to where it should have been with a first day choice every third year or so..

Mikey was so in love with fast LB's he did not keep his eye on the target..

TXBRONC
01-03-2008, 08:29 AM
Regardless of who is in charge DEN defense would suck..

The DL has been neglected for almost a decade in the draft , it has survived only on mostly hand me downs since Price was drafted in 1998 I think it was.. Beyond that a no meaningful first day pick has been made on it..

You live and die in the trenches. NOW mikey has to live with his lack of concern. Might take another two years to bring it back to where it should have been with a first day choice every third year or so..

Mikey was so in love with fast LB's he did not keep his eye on the target..


Again I remember someone saying Bates was the new sheriff in town and gave Shanahan an ultimatum that he either have control of defense or else he would not sign on.

I would say that same person would have given the credit to Bates if the defense had been successful.

I would also say Shanahan has better feel for where the target is than any of us.

BOSSHOGG30
01-03-2008, 09:36 AM
Here is a list of the best available free agents for 2008.

Defensive End
Simeon Rice - Was waived by the Indianapolis Colts recently and also played for the Denver Broncos this season.
Lance Johnstone - He was released by the Oakland Raiders earlier this year but could fill a situational pass rushing role.
Kenard Lang - Could be a fourth end for a team and plays the run well.
Michael Haynes (DT) - The former first-round pick of the Chicago Bears had a tryout with the Houston Texans this season.
Bobby Hamilton - He's seen as an end in a 3-4 and could provide a 10-15 snaps or so for a team that uses that scheme. He had a tryout with the Cleveland Browns and New England Patriots (twice) this season.
Tyoka Jackson (DT) - Can play inside or outside as a fourth end or tackle.
Dave Ball (DT) - Versatile defensive lineman who has drawn a lot interest around the league this season. Had tryouts for the Arizona Cardinals, Baltimore Ravens, Buffalo Bills, Minnesota Vikings, and Tennessee Titans.

Defensive Tackle
Rien Long - A former fourth-round pick of the Tennessee Titans, Long could be a decent fourth tackle for a team and had tryouts with the Atlanta Falcons and New York Jets recently.
Joe Salave'a - Solid backup who could start for a short period of time if needed. Had a tryout with the Cleveland Browns recently.
Lional Dalton - Could be a solid fourth tackle for a team.
Rodney Leisle - Had tryouts with the Denver Broncos and New York Giants this season.
Kenderick Allen - He could be a solid fourth tackle for a team and had tryouts with Denver Broncos and Tennessee Titans and had a Houston Texans visit with the this season.
Willie Whitehead (DE) - Played end to start his career but after putting on weight moved in side. Had a tryout with the New England Patriots this season.
Matthias Askew - The former fourth-round pick of the Cincinnati Bengals had tryouts with the Miami Dolphins and Tennessee Titans.
Chad Lavalais - Serviceable fourth tackle.
Johnathan Sullivan - Former first-round pick of the New Orleans Saints who was a major underachiever.
Junior Siavii - Underachieving former second-round pick of the Kansas City Chiefs. Had tryouts with the Cleveland Browns, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and Washington Redskins this season.

Inside/Middle Linebacker
Al Wilson - He still hasn't gotten cleared to play but could come in and start if he was allowed to play.
Rod Davis - Backup player who could give a team some snaps.
Barry Gardner - Can play in a variety of schemes in a backup role.

Outside Linebacker
Ed Hartwell (WLB/MLB) - He was signed by the Cincinnati Bengals earlier this year to start at WLB but he didn't make the final roster. He's had another tryout with the Bengals recently as well with the Jacksonville Jaguars.
D.D. Lewis (WLB/SLB) - Actually can play all three linebacker positions and had tryouts with the Houston Texans and Jacksonville Jaguars recently.
Colby Bockwoldt (WLB) - Was waived by the Cleveland Browns recently. Good special teams player and decent backup.
Hannibal Navies (SLB) - Has been on and off the roster of the San Francisco 49ers this season. Solid backup who can start if needed.
LaVar Arrington (WLB/SLB) - He was injured in a car accident earlier this year and is coming back from a torn Achilles suffered last season.
Orlando Huff (WLB) - He has starting experience and could play special teams. He's had tryouts with the Denver Broncos, Houston Texans, and Jacksonville Jaguars this season.
Eddie Moore (WLB) - Former second-round pick of the Miami Dolphins.
Keith Adams (WLB) - He's a very solid special teams player who could be a solid backup for a team. Had tryouts with the Buffalo Bills, Detroit Lions, and Jacksonville Jaguars this season.
Brandon Short (SLB/WLB) - Solid veteran backup who can play inside or outside.
Al Singleton (SLB) - The physical and intelligent linebacker had tryouts for the Detroit Lions
James Darling (WLB/MLB) - He can play inside or outside in a backup role and could play on special teams.
Saleem Rasheed (WLB) - He can play inside in a 3-4 and WLB in a 4-3.
Ben Taylor (SLB/WLB) - Undersized linebacker who could play special teams and give some snaps in a backup role.
T.J. Slaughter (SLB/WLB) - The versatile, physical linebacker had tryouts with the Buffalo Bills and New England Patriots this season.

Safety
Donovin Darius - Was released by the Miami Dolphins earlier this season.
Jay Bellamy - Was waived by the New Orleans Saints recently.
Robert Griffith - The 13-year veteran had a tryout with the New York Giants recently.
Shaun Williams - It's believed he still wants to play and he had tryouts with the Cleveland Browns and Oakland Raiders this season.
Terrence Kiel - He was released back in March and hasn't had much interest in his services possibly because of a previous off the field situation.
Tony Parrish - He a had a tryout with the Cleveland Browns this season.
Derrick Strait (CB) - He's had tryouts with the Buffalo Bills, Denver

BOSSHOGG30
01-03-2008, 09:42 AM
Really good free agent website

http://www.draftdaddy.com/nfldraft/freeagentoffense.cfm

http://www.draftdaddy.com/nfldraft/freeagentdefense.cfm

Broncolingus
01-03-2008, 10:27 AM
We're going to bring in another coordinator to work with our weak-a$$ defensive line?

I'm not sticking up for Bates, I'm not even saying he doesn't have blame, but we've changed D-coordinator's 4-5 times since the beginning of the century and the results have been more or less the same...

Weak and un-physical defensive line that can't pressure the QB with the down-4, can't compete with the physical teams of the league, blow's games at the end, etc.

That d@mn D-line is what needs to get fixed...

broncofanatic1987
01-03-2008, 10:39 AM
Bates can turn things around if:

1. He gets two run stuffers for the middle of the line.

2. He gets one or two stud linebackers- one or two OLBs or a MLB, moving DJ to WLB.

3. The players pull their heads out of their third points of contact and make tackles, maintain their gaps, and stay with their assignments.

Recent articles have speculated that if Bates is fired, Bob Slowik will take over as the head of the defense. Anyone hoping that Bates is replaced by a guy like Rex Ryan or some other big name DC, is likely going to be disappointed. What top notch DC is going to put his reputation on the line in Denver after one of the best was given only one year? A year in which one of the expected defensive cogs punked out and pretty much forced a trade to the hated Faiders. If Bates goes, Slowik might be the only choice to replace him. That might not be a bad thing, because, apparently, he's more aggressive with the blitzes than Bates is.

Mike
01-03-2008, 11:10 AM
Recent articles have speculated that if Bates is fired, Bob Slowik will take over as the head of the defense. Anyone hoping that Bates is replaced by a guy like Rex Ryan or some other big name DC, is likely going to be disappointed. What top notch DC is going to put his reputation on the line in Denver after one of the best was given only one year? A year in which one of the expected defensive cogs punked out and pretty much forced a trade to the hated Faiders. If Bates goes, Slowik might be the only choice to replace him. That might not be a bad thing, because, apparently, he's more aggressive with the blitzes than Bates is.

I don't know about this. After watching this cluster of a defense this season, how can you do anything BUT improve? I think that it might be an impossibility.

I would be more inclined towards keeping Bates if the defense showed even the slightest inclination of picking it up towards the end of the season...I tend to agree that people should be given more than 1 year to put a product out on the field. But I saw virtually no improvement from the first preseason game to the Minnesota game and that has me worried.

If there are doubts as to his abilitiy now is the time to make the change...seeing as how the players never really adapted to his scheme.

mclark
01-03-2008, 11:30 AM
We were not a terrible defense in 2006. But we did wear down in the middle -- we needed help at defensive tackle and we needed Al Wilson to get well. You might remember that we set a league record for fewest points allowed in the first 6 or 7 games of 2006.

Bates is hired. His first move is to eject our only decent defensive tackle, whom we eventually gave away to the Raiders.

Wilson couldn't get well -- and he had to retire.

The next move was not, as one might expect, to get a middle linebacker to replace Wilson, but to move DJ Williams out of position to fill the middle. So, instead of one new linebacker, we had two.

Then came the plethora of defensive linemen Bates (and Shanny) signed to fill the (now) two huge holes at defensive tackle, Sam Adams being the most ridiculous (he was called our "Bates system" guy, overweight, slow, supposedly immovable): trouble was, he couldn't move. He didn't even suit up against Indianapolis because he was too slow to get off the field with their no huddle offense.

We actually lost multiple draft choices maneuvering to get Bates the defensive linemen he wanted, before the draft, and then during the draft.

I like both Moss and Thomas -- but I think we could have got both of them without giving up any draft choices. Maybe not.

Wilkinson was a no-show. Then we cut the Jimmy Kennedy, who cost us a draft choice.

This was all Bates trying to get his system men.

Suddenly, with Bates system firmly in place, we were one of the bottom three defenses in the league. He doesn't have the Bates System players! Yes, but Coyer didn't have the best defensive players in football, and his defenses weren't the worst in the league.

How did we go so quickly from being a good defense with some holes to being the worst defense in the league? The Bates System. The Bates System was so bad -- at least our application of the system was so bad -- that we gave it up in week five because we couldn't stop anyone's running game. Run it up the middle.

We had people out of position, people who should not have been playing, and a defense that was thinking about gaps instead of thinking about tackling.

I say he failed miserably -- send him packing -- and hire somone whose goal is to attack on defense. Blitz. Put pressure on the quarterback. Disrupt the opponent's offense. I didn't see much blitzing from the Bates System. I saw a mostly passive pass defense -- and a rushing defense that couldn't plug a hole to save its life.

BigDaddyBronco
01-03-2008, 11:40 AM
We were not a terrible defense in 2006. But we did wear down in the middle -- we needed help at defensive tackle and we needed Al Wilson to get well. You might remember that we set a league record for fewest points allowed in the first 6 or 7 games of 2006.

Bates is hired. His first move is to eject our only decent defensive tackle, whom we eventually gave away to the Raiders.

Wilson couldn't get well -- and he had to retire.

The next move was not, as one might expect, to get a middle linebacker to replace Wilson, but to move DJ Williams out of position to fill the middle. So, instead of one new linebacker, we had two.

Then came the plethora of defensive linemen Bates (and Shanny) signed to fill the (now) two huge holes at defensive tackle, Sam Adams being the most ridiculous (he was called our "Bates system" guy, overweight, slow, supposedly immovable): trouble was, he couldn't move. He didn't even suit up against Indianapolis because he was too slow to get off the field with their no huddle offense.

We actually lost multiple draft choices maneuvering to get Bates the defensive linemen he wanted, before the draft, and then during the draft.

I like both Moss and Thomas -- but I think we could have got both of them without giving up any draft choices. Maybe not.

Wilkinson was a no-show. Then we cut the Jimmy Kennedy, who cost us a draft choice.

This was all Bates trying to get his system men.

Suddenly, with Bates system firmly in place, we were one of the bottom three defenses in the league. He doesn't have the Bates System players! Yes, but Coyer didn't have the best defensive players in football, and his defenses weren't the worst in the league.

How did we go so quickly from being a good defense with some holes to being the worst defense in the league? The Bates System. The Bates System was so bad -- at least our application of the system was so bad -- that we gave it up in week five because we couldn't stop anyone's running game. Run it up the middle.

We had people out of position, people who should not have been playing, and a defense that was thinking about gaps instead of thinking about tackling.

I say he failed miserably -- send him packing -- and hire somone whose goal is to attack on defense. Blitz. Put pressure on the quarterback. Disrupt the opponent's offense. I didn't see much blitzing from the Bates System. I saw a mostly passive pass defense -- and a rushing defense that couldn't plug a hole to save its life.

:salute: Before the Chargers game in SD, Deion Sanders asks Bates if he is going to blitz tonight. Bates says something like he is "going to release the hounds". Yet virtually no blitzing. Watching the Patriots struggle with the blitz packages from the Eagles and to a lesser degree from the Giants makes me want to see us have a DC who will at least try different things. Watching the Broncos defense struggle most of the year with only one major change (dropping Bates scheme) in midseason was so painful it made me want to gouge my eyes out.

I don't care if the fail by trying something new. But if they fail and don't try anything different then not only are you stubborn and egotistical, but in my opinion stupid.

broncofanatic1987
01-03-2008, 11:45 AM
I don't know about this. After watching this cluster of a defense this season, how can you do anything BUT improve? I think that it might be an impossibility.

I would be more inclined towards keeping Bates if the defense showed even the slightest inclination of picking it up towards the end of the season...I tend to agree that people should be given more than 1 year to put a product out on the field. But I saw virtually no improvement from the first preseason game to the Minnesota game and that has me worried.

If there are doubts as to his abilitiy now is the time to make the change...seeing as how the players never really adapted to his scheme.

The point is, we're not going to get a top notch DC if Bates is fired. Who's going to put their reputation on the line in Denver, knowing that they are only going to have one year to produce a good defense? We're likely to get a DC who doesn't have a reputation to protect, but is trying to build one instead. Slowik might fit that mold. He was a DC at one point but went to Denver as a position coach. They promoted him to DC(in title only) to prevent another team from hiring him away.

Sometimes, when the players don't adapt to the scheme, you get rid of the players. The players were the ones missing tackles, not maintaining their gaps, and blowing their assignments. If the players had been making the tackles, maintaining their gaps, and staying with their assignments and they were still ranked near the bottom in rushing defense and points allowed, I would agree that Bates should be fired. But, the fact is, the failure was with the players, not the coach. I don't care if Bates is willing to fall on the sword in public, there's no way he can think it's his fault in his heart. His system is a proven success. The players didn't have the talent to execute it. That falls on the players and Shanahan for not bringing in or keeping the right players. Things might have been different if we had kept Warren. Just because he wasn't happy with the new scheme, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have played well in it. Maybe they should have at least waited until after the preseason to decide whether or not to trade him.

HolyDiver
01-03-2008, 11:49 AM
Schemes change............the 4-6 had to start somewhere............But that doesn't mean Buddy Ryan can just show up today and turn any Defense into a success...............It's time for a NEW scheme and a NEW, younger DC. .........Ken Norton Jr is available, but not for much longer. We need to act now, or settle for an aging, outdated system.

Mike
01-03-2008, 11:52 AM
The point is, we're not going to get a top notch DC if Bates is fired. Who's going to put their reputation on the line in Denver, knowing that they are only going to have one year to produce a good defense? We're likely to get a DC who doesn't have a reputation to protect, but is trying to build one instead. Slowik might fit that mold. He was a DC at one point but went to Denver as a position coach. They promoted him to DC(in title only) to prevent another team from hiring him away.

Sometimes, when the players don't adapt to the scheme, you get rid of the players. The players were the ones missing tackles, not maintaining their gaps, and blowing their assignments. If the players had been making the tackles, maintaining their gaps, and staying with their assignments and they were still ranked near the bottom in rushing defense and points allowed, I would agree that Bates should be fired. But, the fact is, the failure was with the players, not the coach. I don't care if Bates is willing to fall on the sword in public, there's no way he can think it's his fault in his heart. His system is a proven success. The players didn't have the talent to execute it. That falls on the players and Shanahan for not bringing in or keeping the right players. Things might have been different if we had kept Warren. Just because he wasn't happy with the new scheme, it doesn't mean he wouldn't have played well in it. Maybe they should have at least waited until after the preseason to decide whether or not to trade him.

I know what you were saying. All I am saying is that there is nowhere to go BUT up. Denver's defense hit rock bottom this year. I would wager any hungry d-coord would be willing to come to Denver. That is the problem with Denver's coaching staff overall and it's propensity to hire within. They need to bring in young and hungry people...not retreads. And that is why I don't think Slowick would be much better than Bates.

When you have oranges...let's make lemonade. That seems to be what Bates tried to do this year. Blame the oranges because they are not lemons...that seems to be what you're saying. I agree that the tackling was shoddy. But coaches are supposed to coach the fundamentals not just the schemes. In which case Bates failed at both. Like I said, show me some improvement and I will give you a chance.

This defense was not built to run the kind of defense Bates runs. Gutting the defense is out of the question in this day and age.

broncofanatic1987
01-03-2008, 01:48 PM
I know what you were saying. All I am saying is that there is nowhere to go BUT up. Denver's defense hit rock bottom this year. I would wager any hungry d-coord would be willing to come to Denver. That is the problem with Denver's coaching staff overall and it's propensity to hire within. They need to bring in young and hungry people...not retreads. And that is why I don't think Slowick would be much better than Bates.

When you have oranges...let's make lemonade. That seems to be what Bates tried to do this year. Blame the oranges because they are not lemons...that seems to be what you're saying. I agree that the tackling was shoddy. But coaches are supposed to coach the fundamentals not just the schemes. In which case Bates failed at both. Like I said, show me some improvement and I will give you a chance.

This defense was not built to run the kind of defense Bates runs. Gutting the defense is out of the question in this day and age.

Shanahan is the one to blame for giving Bates oranges instead of lemons.

This is the day and age when gutting a defense and starting over is entirely possible. They don't even need to gut the defense. The need to get two run stuffers for the middle of the line and one or two stud linebackers.

Coaches can teach fundamentals until they're blue in the face but it won't help if the players don't utilize them on game day. I'm not going to put the blame on Bates for the players not making tackles or maintaining their gaps. I find it hard to believe that he didn't do everything he could to prepare them for the games. The players failed to execute. That's their fault, not Bates' fault.

Skinny
01-03-2008, 02:20 PM
The players failed to execute. That's their fault, not Bates' fault.Champ, Lynch, Bly, Foxworth, Abdullah ... to just name a few who have said this very thing as well.

I agree with them ... it's not Bates or the Scheme ... it's the execution within the Scheme that failed.

CoachChaz
01-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Just out of curiosity, did anyone really expect miracles from 3 rookies, a 2nd year pass rush specialist, another Cleveland castoff, an MLB in his first year at the position and a weak group of safeties? Make the defensive improvements and let the kids get some experience and my bet is the defense looks alot better before we know it.
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Broncolingus
01-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Just out of curiosity, did anyone really expect miracles from 3 rookies, a 2nd year pass rush specialist, another Cleveland castoff, an MLB in his first year at the position and a weak group of safeties? Make the defensive improvements and let the kids get some experience and my bet is the defense looks alot better before we know it.

I agree...I think several of us were 'weary' of how the D-line would perform this year.

That group, esp. at the Indy game, was who I was focused on early in the year...of course, they were weak pass-rush wise just like always (past 5-7 years) but now couldn't stop the run either.

Several of us have commented that a 'quick' turn around is unlikely...esp. given the talent (or lack thereof) that we have on the D-line.

The defensive front-four are absolutely the priority this offseason...fix that, and you don't have to have All-Pros in every position from LB back...

I do think, however, it is unlikely for Denver to put together a playoff competitve D-line in just a single off season though...

Although, with a decent draft and FA, and a good amount of luck, who knows...

EMB6903
01-03-2008, 03:41 PM
Your right, How you feel abotu Shanny though? Bowlen hired him to do a job and he has'nt done it in 8 years. Bates deserves a few more years.


Didnt Shanahan take the Broncos to the AFC CHAMP GAME in 2005? I know its not a superbowl ring, but saying he hasnt "done anything in 8 years" is crazy. I do think Hiemerdinger need to go and Shanahan hire a legit PROVEN offensive cordinator, theres a few avalable already (Cameron, Martz, soon to be Linehan)

BOSSHOGG30
01-03-2008, 03:45 PM
If a frog had wings would it bump its ass so much?

EMB6903
01-03-2008, 03:45 PM
Just out of curiosity, did anyone really expect miracles from 3 rookies, a 2nd year pass rush specialist, another Cleveland castoff, an MLB in his first year at the position and a weak group of safeties? Make the defensive improvements and let the kids get some experience and my bet is the defense looks alot better before we know it.


Ya very true... some fans dont realize you cant expect to build a dline basically through 2 drafts, My problem with bates is the inconsistant play calling he came with game to game...

Broncolingus
01-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Whoa - a friggin football post here...I'm shocked!

I suppose some of the playcalling issues early in the season was attempting to 'see' if the defense would eventually get the system...which they didn't.

What was it - week 8 or 9 when the defense went to a more simple system?

Of course that didn't do much for consistency either did it?

Lonestar
01-03-2008, 05:03 PM
Just out of curiosity, did anyone really expect miracles from 3 rookies, a 2nd year pass rush specialist, another Cleveland castoff, an MLB in his first year at the position and a weak group of safeties? Make the defensive improvements and let the kids get some experience and my bet is the defense looks alot better before we know it.

yes bronco fans expect tot go to the Super bowl every year.

You should have been on here and BM before TC.. I do not know how many 14-2 records I saw.

When I initially predicted a 7-9 season I was run out of town. After the firs couple of games, when I said it could have been as low as 3-13. Well I'm glad I did not have my address listed..

With Stud DT and no injuries next year this team could be special. They would have to dump gold and pick up someone good to play SAM. They could be rather good, a top ten defense..

Lynch might even stick around.. Negating not having to draft a Safety on day one.

mclark
01-03-2008, 05:28 PM
Just out of curiosity, did anyone really expect miracles from 3 rookies, a 2nd year pass rush specialist, another Cleveland castoff, an MLB in his first year at the position and a weak group of safeties? Make the defensive improvements and let the kids get some experience and my bet is the defense looks alot better before we know it.

I didn't expect miracles. I didn't expect complete collapse however. Our rushing defense was #12 in the league in 2006. The moves we made were supposed to shore up this perceived weakness. This year we were #30, giving up almost 500 more yards on the ground.

The unloading of Warren was, I'm pretty certain, a Bates move. The switching of DJ Williams to middle linebacker probably also was. The loading up of oversized veterans who were supposed to be Bates-system types were probably also Bates moves. The results were a miserable failure.

Our failure this year happened on both sides of the ball, not just the defense. But the defense led the way. The defense imploded; and then the offense, especially after key injuries depleted our ability to compete, followed the defense down.

As far as players not blaming the coaches, how many players blame coaches and don't get shipped out of town? The players were trying to execute a system that wasn't working.

If it's always the players' fault, then why do so many coaches get fired?

I didn't hear many players screaming for Cameron's head or Billick's head either. The coaches ARE INVOLVED in the poor execution of a poor game plan. When the system collapses, coaches do get fired.

I don't remember any system in Denver collapsing with such a HUGE THUD as Bates' system did, from the first preseason game on through the entire season (with one or two positive blips, indicating life).

Lonestar
01-03-2008, 05:37 PM
One has to wonder why it has worked so well in two other cities. yet failed this year in DEN...


While they brought in Adams and Kennedy to go with warren, one was over the hill and the other never able to make it up the hill.

Along with warren not remotely interested in going near the hill..

I suspect that they thought Adams had more in the tank, Kennedy had some tank and that big money would play for his pay..

While it may have been Bates that was the prime mover on these losers mikey did indeed have to sign off on them.

Does anyone think that moving DJ to MLB was that big a failure?

Drafting Moss #1?

Getting Crowder?

Last but not least getting Thomas in the 4th?

These also were prime moves by Bates (Signed off by mikey).

Were all of his moves wrong?

HolyDiver
01-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Didnt Shanahan take the Broncos to the AFC CHAMP GAME in 2005? I know its not a superbowl ring, but saying he hasnt "done anything in 8 years" is crazy. I do think Hiemerdinger need to go and Shanahan hire a legit PROVEN offensive cordinator, theres a few avalable already (Cameron, Martz, soon to be Linehan)

I agree with letting Hiemerdinger go...........The playcalling, especially inside the 20 was horrible. I think we ran the sprint right option a total of 5 times the whole year...........exageration but it's probably actually pretty close. You role out Cutler to the right, on the 5 yard line................8 of of 10 times we score. Very few draws..............shuffle passes..............Listen, we have a very young Offense. Lets get a OC............and a DC that can grow with the young players.

mclark
01-03-2008, 07:16 PM
One has to wonder why it has worked so well in two other cities. yet failed this year in DEN...


While they brought in Adams and Kennedy to go with warren, one was over the hill and the other never able to make it up the hill.

Along with warren not remotely interested in going near the hill..

I suspect that they thought Adams had more in the tank, Kennedy had some tank and that big money would play for his pay..

While it may have been Bates that was the prime mover on these losers mikey did indeed have to sign off on them.

Does anyone think that moving DJ to MLB was that big a failure?

Drafting Moss #1?

Getting Crowder?

Last but not least getting Thomas in the 4th?

These also were prime moves by Bates (Signed off by mikey).

Were all of his moves wrong?

I think moving DJ to MLB was a big failure. But I don't blame DJ for that. He played his heart out, learned alot, and was better at the end of the season that at the beginning. I think an even bigger failure was not getting a real middle-linebacker to replace Wilson so we wouldn't have to replace two linebackers in the same year we were trying to institute a new defensive scheme.

Will DJ, if he stays at MLB, become a good MLB? It's possible. He had a real learning year this year. He's a great athlete. He's our second best defensive player. But I hope we draft a violent, aggressive, big MLB and move him over to the weakside and let him run all over the field. I think DJ is a finesse player. I think MLB's need to be a little bit psychotic -- i.e., not finesse players.

DJ was not our weakest link -- but having him take over the middle when no one else knew what they were doing was a very difficult situation for him.

I think we had a good draft last year; and, with another good draft this year, we'll be more than half-way through our rebuilding.

I think we all agree that we're weak in the middle on defense and weak in both lines and that's where we need to get better.

mclark
01-03-2008, 07:17 PM
I agree with letting Hiemerdinger go...........The playcalling, espcially inside the 20 was horrible. I think we ran the sprint right option a total of 5 times the whole year...........exageration but it's probably actually pretty close. You role out Cutler to the right, on the 5 yard line................8 of of 10 times we score. Very few draws..............shuffle passes..............Listen, we have a very young Offense. Lets get a OC............and a DC that can grow with the young players.

I agree. New blood would be good.

Skinny
01-03-2008, 07:26 PM
One has to wonder why it has worked so well in two other cities. yet failed this year in DEN...In Miami, the Scheme and peices were already in place. Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wannstedt (D-Coord.) took over there in 96', Jimmy resigned in 00' ... so that's 4/5 years of FA and Drafting to address the Defensive side of the ball and get players to fit and learn that Scheme.

Then in 00' Wannstedt took over as HC and hired Bates as the D-Coord. The reason for Bates hire was his was so familiar with the Scheme, it was the same Scheme they (JJ and Wann.) ran in Dallas when Bates was a LB Coach under Dave Campo who was a assistant under Wannstedt while the D-Coord.

All Bates had to do was pick up where Wannstedt left off ...

G.B. however was just a great Coaching job by Bates ... plain and simple. Something the staff before him (Donatell) could'nt do.

He had something there to work with too ... KGB and Aaron Kaupman at DE's which fit his style DE to a T ... Corey Williams and Grady Jackson at DT ... Al Harris and Ahmad Carroll at CB ... Nick Barnett and Na'il Diggs at L.B's and Nick Collins at Safety. All players who fit very well with the Scheme Bates runs.

While Bates has moved on, the Scheme is still being ran in GB and what ... 2 years after the fact, that Defense just keeps getting better and is a big reason for their success this year. Their not giving up leads and making teams work the butt off Offensively ...

Reason for success ...


While they brought in Adams and Kennedy to go with warren, one was over the hill and the other never able to make it up the hill. There was only so much there to work with when the FA season began. He and Mikey had to take some chances and shots at getting some better personel/talent in here because if you remember ... our run Defense and pass rush had just run Coyer out of town.

Just filling in those positions with studs who can grasp the Scheme overnight is easier said than done, which i'm sure you understand.

Bates and Mikey gambled on some players, and they lost. But something had to be done to get this Defense over the hump ...


Does anyone think that moving DJ to MLB was that big a failure?I don't.


Drafting Moss #1?

Getting Crowder?

Last but not least getting Thomas in the 4th?

These also were prime moves by Bates (Signed off by mikey).

Were all of his moves wrong?I was estatic about those selections personally. We needed help at DE and DT and we got it. We picked up some quality talent IMO.

Their play speaks for themselves ... and barring injury, i see these young guys continuing to get better each season. When's the last time we've been able to say that??

Bates with this Draft has proved he has an eye for talent, and i beleive if he's given the time, he can prove he'll be a hell of a D-Coord here too.

But of course that's not for me to say ... he just may be let go ...

Lonestar
01-03-2008, 07:40 PM
I think moving DJ to MLB was a big failure. But I don't blame DJ for that. He played his heart out, learned alot, and was better at the end of the season that at the beginning. I think an even bigger failure was not getting a real middle-linebacker to replace Wilson so we wouldn't have to replace two linebackers in the same year we were trying to institute a new defensive scheme.

Will DJ, if he stays at MLB, become a good MLB? It's possible. He had a real learning year this year. He's a great athlete. He's our second best defensive player. But I hope we draft a violent, aggressive, big MLB and move him over to the weakside and let him run all over the field. I think DJ is a finesse player. I think MLB's need to be a little bit psychotic -- i.e., not finesse players.

DJ was not our weakest link -- but having him take over the middle when no one else knew what they were doing was a very difficult situation for him.

I think we had a good draft last year; and, with another good draft this year, we'll be more than half-way through our rebuilding.

I think we all agree that we're weak in the middle on defense and weak in both lines and that's where we need to get better.

Well DJ may be a better Will than Mike.. But unless we get a stud MLB and they do not come cheap I suspect he will be the MLB for years to come..

Your correct with the rebuilding it will take another year.. NO quick fixes that I can see. But if they can come up in the Draft with a Stud DT that can start next to Thomas. with Windborn looking good at Will they just have to get a decent Sam LB to fill that spot.. By the by week next year this D could be something special.. Barring the fickle finger of fate that is..

Lonestar
01-03-2008, 07:43 PM
In Miami, the Scheme and peices were already in place. Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wannstedt (D-Coord.) took over there in 96', Jimmy resigned in 00' ... so that's 4/5 years of FA and Drafting to address the Defensive side of the ball and get players to fit and learn that Scheme.

Then in 00' Wannstedt took over as HC and hired Bates as the D-Coord. The reason for Bates hire was his was so familiar with the Scheme, it was the same Scheme they (JJ and Wann.) ran in Dallas when Bates was a LB Coach under Dave Campo who was a assistant under Wannstedt while the D-Coord.

All Bates had to do was pick up where Wannstedt left off ...

G.B. however was just a great Coaching job by Bates ... plain and simple. Something the staff before him (Donatell) could'nt do.

He had something there to work with too ... KGB and Aaron Kaupman at DE's which fit his style DE to a T ... Corey Williams and Grady Jackson at DT ... Al Harris and Ahmad Carroll at CB ... Nick Barnett and Na'il Diggs at L.B's and Nick Collins at Safety. All players who fit very well with the Scheme Bates runs.

While Bates has moved on, the Scheme is still being ran in GB and what ... 2 years after the fact, that Defense just keeps getting better and is a big reason for their success this year. Their not giving up leads and making teams work the butt off Offensively ...

Reason for success ...

There was only so much there to work with when the FA season began. He and Mikey had to take some chances and shots at getting some better personel/talent in here because if you remember ... our run Defense and pass rush had just run Coyer out of town.

Just filling in those positions with studs who can grasp the Scheme overnight is easier said than done, which i'm sure you understand.

Bates and Mikey gambled on some players, and they lost. But something had to be done to get this Defense over the hump ...

I don't.

I was estatic about those selections personally. We needed help at DE and DT and we got it. We picked up some quality talent IMO.

Their play speaks for themselves ... and barring injury, i see these young guys continuing to get better each season. When's the last time we've been able to say that??

Bates with this Draft has proved he has an eye for talent, and i beleive if he's given the time, he can prove he'll be a hell of a D-Coord here too.

But of course that's not for me to say ... he just may be let go ...

If for no other reason he should be kept just to keep mikey from making stupid choices like he has forever..

Bates was not the problem, he is the solution IF mikey will give him the players he needs. He porved it in MIA and GB that teh sytstem works IF you have decent players they become pro bowl types..

TXBRONC
01-03-2008, 07:48 PM
I think moving DJ to MLB was a big failure. But I don't blame DJ for that. He played his heart out, learned alot, and was better at the end of the season that at the beginning. I think an even bigger failure was not getting a real middle-linebacker to replace Wilson so we wouldn't have to replace two linebackers in the same year we were trying to institute a new defensive scheme.

Will DJ, if he stays at MLB, become a good MLB? It's possible. He had a real learning year this year. He's a great athlete. He's our second best defensive player. But I hope we draft a violent, aggressive, big MLB and move him over to the weakside and let him run all over the field. I think DJ is a finesse player. I think MLB's need to be a little bit psychotic -- i.e., not finesse players.

DJ was not our weakest link -- but having him take over the middle when no one else knew what they were doing was a very difficult situation for him.

I think we had a good draft last year; and, with another good draft this year, we'll be more than half-way through our rebuilding.

I think we all agree that we're weak in the middle on defense and weak in both lines and that's where we need to get better.


I disagree that D.J. was a failure at middle linebacker. Yes he did struggle early on in the year because he was still adjusting to the position, but by the end of the year he was playing at a high level.

I would say that the defensive tackles were the weak link but I would not include our Mike linebacker.

Hawgdriver
01-03-2008, 08:09 PM
Bottom line...Bates failed. He needs to go.

Slim, this isn't directed at you, but it seems you've found the most powerful argument for removing Bates. All of the arguments to remove Bates boil down to some version of this statement.

My response to this is that the NFL has several stories of Hall of Fame coaches that had horrid first seasons. I think it's excusable to have a bumpy first season if there are reasons for it. I think that there are.

As SmilinAssAssin pointed out, we DO have SIGNIFICANT personnel issues. I think that if we brought in another coach with the understanding that the new coach will invent a scheme (or already uses a scheme) that would actually work in Denver is a good idea. That is, if there is another DC out there that could take our personnel, and exploit their strengths and hide their weaknesses, so that we had a top defense--let's do it!

But you can't make sugar from stinkweed. Just as we saw in the Hawaii game, if your team is overmatched physically and talent-wise, they can play to the best of their ability in the scheme that best exploits their strengths, and still end up butt-sore.

A recap of those personnel issues, and what we would need to improve:

D-Line. All rookies and journeymen, with the exception of Elvis Dumerville. We might actually look to Dennison and Bates for an explanation of why Elvis emerged as a pro-bowl level talent this year. We all knew the D-Line was in shambles, as early as 2005. We had to take some chances to improve the line, starting with the draft. We did. We drafted heavy on D-Line. It turns out that those rookies have some potential. They certainly need to continue to improve, but it looks like they may end up sticking. We'll have to see. I think they would regress, initially, if they had to start from scratch. We need some impact players to replace our journeymen DT and DE (Mallard, Engelberger). If we bring back Ekuban, and Jarvis Moss plays a full season, we may have found the answer at DE. We could gamble on a top DT from the 2008 draft class, and maybe draft another in later rounds, and acquire an improvement over McKinley in free agency. It's probably too much to expect a rookie to have a meaningful impact in 2008, but stranger things have happened. Who knows, maybe in 2009 these young players will develop into a fierce pass rushing force, and a force that makes it hard to run up the middle.

Linebacker turned out to be a glaring weakness. Some folks think DJ should be moved back to Will. Although he could do that, we would need a stud LB at Mike. Again, we could gamble on the draft, and even though there are some promising young ILBs coming out, it's still a major gamble. Considering that DJ actually played his position well, and it seems the best choice is to leave him there. I think his tackle total for the year is proof that he can play that position well (and that runners made it past the LOS far too often). He doesn't show the leadership we've come to expect from Al Wilson, and see in Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis, but after a year at the position, he will improve, and expectations will be higher. I think that's the right answer, even if I have doubts about his aptitude for captaincy.

The other LBs often failed to anticipate correctly. I attribute this to a combination of the lack of consistency in the scheme, and their own innate inability to find the ball.

Compound this with the fact that Lynch tended to play the run first, and Abdullah may not have the coverage skills necessary, and it's clear that safety was hardly a strength.

Bates and the front office took every measure to acquire the best available personnel to shore up these weaknesses. Those measures were inadequate. At times, we had 9 of the 11 folks on the field in a new environment. There were 7 of them that were new to Denver, or new starters. Only Engelberger, Dumervil, Bailey, and Lynch could be considered incumbent, and Engelberger wasn't really a clear cut starter before this year. DJ was in a different position, Winborn and Webster came off the scrap heap, and Ian Gold didn't shine. The front was completely new, and even the presence of Dumervil and Engelberger aren't that special, since they were basically back ups in 06. It was Hamza Abdullah's first year to start at the position. Before him, Ferguson played the position, and looked to have peaked professionally as a merely suitable SS.

Given those stinkweeds, I don't see how another DC would have been able to harvest sugar.

When it was clear that the stop gap measures were never going to hold up, Bates changed the scheme. This was probably short sighted, since Denver still felt it should be a championship caliber team. But the reality was that those players could never take us there. Perhaps if he would have kept his scheme, then at least the players that return for next year, especially the rookies, would have been able to develop some consistency and anticipation.

So the question is, do we reload and give Bates another try, or reload and try someone else? Given Bates' development of our young/rookie line, I'm inclined to let him continue his work. I think he'll be able to mold these guys into good/better pass rushers, and maybe even shore up the DT position. If you bring someone else in, you'll have to unlearn much of what was taught to the rookies, and still hope you can find the right personnel for that coach's scheme. It seems to me that no matter who we brought in, the central issue is that our personnel are overmatched physically, and talent-wise. I expect we will keep Bates, and field an average defense next year. But I think in 2009 we will have a scary defense. Bringing in new defensive staff just delays that development another year.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-03-2008, 08:30 PM
Keep Bates, Dump Shanny.

TXBRONC
01-03-2008, 08:33 PM
Keep Bates, Dump Shanny.

Don't think so.

Bronco9798
01-03-2008, 09:12 PM
Keep Bates, Dump Shanny.

Brilliant,,,:rolleyes:

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
01-03-2008, 10:23 PM
Yeah i know its brilliant, Shanny the one who has had 8 years to get his players and done nothing, Bates one year w ithout his players and he gets the boot? Hmmm BRILLIANT

TXBRONC
01-03-2008, 10:32 PM
Yeah i know its brilliant, Shanny the one who has had 8 years to get his players and done nothing, Bates one year w ithout his players and he gets the boot? Hmmm BRILLIANT

I don't think this so brilliant. Do you really think Bates came here and Shanahan told him here are the players I'm going to give you and that's it? I don't think so.

Broncospsycho77
01-03-2008, 10:51 PM
Yeah i know its brilliant, Shanny the one who has had 8 years to get his players and done nothing, Bates one year w ithout his players and he gets the boot? Hmmm BRILLIANT

How about an AFC Championship run in 05? Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your scale, are there 31 teams each year that do "nothing"? Mike still has the stuff; this was a transition year in terms of leadership, scheme, and coaching staff. This season would rationally be the worst year to dump him.