View Full Version : Game Manager?
rcsodak
10-25-2009, 11:27 PM
I keep hearing about how Orton is a "game manager". But I have a problem with that moniker.
In business, managers are people that are in the position because they have the ability to lead. They are responsible for the success or failure. They devise business plans and ensure that the people beneath them are capable of fulfilling their assignments. He should be able to keep his cool, be calm and collected.
Now, a quarterback should have the same qualities. He should have the ability to empower his offensive players to excel and be successful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you DON'T put somebody in the top position, whether it be a business, or QB, that CAN'T be a manager. So where, did the label "game manager" become a bad thing?
Seems to me, one of the best "game managers" was Joe Montana. He knew how to manage a game.
And more recently, who is a better "game manager" than Peyton Manning?
To call Orton simply a "game manager", and use it as a bad thing, I'm more of the thought that says he's being a fantastic "game manager", and leading this team as it should be lead; playing smart, not making stupid mistakes, playing within himself, staying cool/calm/collected, and empowering his teammates to believe in themselves and the team.
Kyle Orton a game manager?
He's on the right track, imho.
Day1BroncoFan
10-25-2009, 11:31 PM
As long as he manages to win games I'm OK with it. :D
While I'm sure it was used before Plummer, maybe with people like Dilfer, where I really heard it become popular was when the media didn't know how to handle Plummer going all those games without a pick, so they started calling him a game manager, which was meant as a slight.
McDaniels feathers actually got ruffled a few weeks back when someone referred to Orton as a game manager, because it typically isn't considered a compliment.
They throw it out there as a description for a QB that the best you can hope for is he won't make a mistake. He isn't capable of carrying a team, but he can hand it off and make a few throws here and there to let the talent around him win.
So far, especially since the glove has come off, Orton looks like he is more than a game manager (in the derogatory press usage of the term). When he was asked to throw it 48 times or whatever it was a few weeks ago, he did a hell of a job.
Time will tell, but while he probably will never be a top 5 QB in the league, so far he seems to be doing everything asked of him, with the exception of still being innacurate on the deep ball.
ikillz0mbies
10-25-2009, 11:58 PM
I guess there's this whole distinction of QB's: Playmakers (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Dree Brees), Gunslingers (Brett Favre, Jay Cutler), Game Managers (Kerry Collins, Chad Pennington, Kyle Orton), and the just-awfully-bad-i'm-going-to-root-for-another-team (Jamarcus Russell). But I don't really think these connotations are even necessary. You have bad QB's and good QB's. They all have so many different ways of playing, different levels of IQ, playing in the clutch, that it is just hard to categorize these QB's.
I mean you have Super Bowl QB's from Peyton Manning, John Elway, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, you can't really distinguish them, they are all winners, which in the end, is all that matters. Then on the other hand, you have QB's like Archie Manning who are great QB's but the team around them is terrible.
Anyway, the term "game manager" shouldn't be a bad term to use on a QB. People just don't like that term because that QB isn't flashy, conservative, or does not throw the long bomb. That maybe true, but what is important about these "game managers" is that they are smart, aware of the defense, makes throws he knows he can make, and LIMITS HIS MISTAKE. Not turning the ball over as a QB is important because you basically throw away your chance at either winning the game or sealing the game.
Do away with these labels already. The only label I like on Orton is WINNER.
Is there a better "game manager" than Peyton Manning? No, but nobody would ever call him a game manager, because it isn't meant as a compliment.
rcsodak
10-26-2009, 12:05 AM
Is there a better "game manager" than Peyton Manning? No, but nobody would ever call him a game manager, because it isn't meant as a compliment.
ummm....I believe that was my point, tned.
Sorry I wasn't able to convey that effectively. ;)
"Game manager" shouldn't be considered a "bad" moniker. More like a badge of honor. I think we've all seen, so far, that Kyle is able to lead the offense. Having multiple 70/80/90yd drives takes more than someone just handing the ball off and throwing 5yd outs.
In fact, I'll go so far as to say I'm being repeatedly happy that Kyle is the QB, and not Mr. Int. in Chi.
ummm....I believe that was my point, tned.
Sorry I wasn't able to convey that effectively. ;)
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just adding my own points on the subject. Which is that while the term should be a positive one, like the way Manning manages a game, the fact is that "game manager" is only used with QBs that are considered mediocre, but are doing better than expected, so they get labled with "game manager" as an explanation for their better than expected results.
j3phr3y
10-26-2009, 12:22 AM
He will be upgraded to "system QB" soon enough.
Iron Horse72
10-26-2009, 01:31 AM
Whatever he is, it's working, just keep winning.
Shazam!
10-26-2009, 02:14 AM
We wanted the rocket armed, athletic wonder for years and we got it.
Maybe we needed the smart game manager all along.
I don't care what it's called. It's working. Orton is playing great and smart. That's all that matters.
The Broncos could be one team that sent two different starting QBs to the Pro Bowl on consecutive seasons. I dont care about PBs, but that would be something.
frenchfan
10-26-2009, 02:37 AM
Is there a better "game manager" than Peyton Manning? No, but nobody would ever call him a game manager, because it isn't meant as a compliment.In the way medias are using "game manager", I guess Brady is may be better...
But in the way RC uses it, I agree about Peyton... Damn, like him or not, but this guy is really great.
Orton won't make some of the (good or bad) plays Favre or Cutler can do... But that doesn't mean he is a bad QB... He has his style and it fits very well McD's system...
I like how Orton is dedicated to his team, his work ethic and his LEADERSHIP...
I really don't care about his so-called "weak" arm :rolleyes:
And really, I do prefer winning with a "game manager" than to lose with a "gunslinger" (or "skilled") QB...
And it seems Orton is managing very well the Red Zone ;) :D
Go Broncos :defense:
If game manager means, non flash, risk minimising, winning games, team first, then that's ok with me. As long as he can pull out the stops when it calls for moving up a gear, which he's proved he can do in couple of tight spots already this season, then they can call him whatever they want, as long as the W's keep coming.
Northman
10-26-2009, 05:47 AM
Call him what you want i dont care as long as we keep winning.
sneakers
10-26-2009, 05:54 AM
As long as he isn't bad as Trent Dilfer, I don't care if he is a game manager.
Outside of Brady throwing the deep ball more than Orton. Not much difference. Brady is a game manager as well. In the way the term is used. But since it is "supposed" to be a knock, they won't use it on the league's poster boy.
I still say that our offense is just starting to add plays week to week. I see more long balls in the future. So if that occurs, will the media still peg Orton as a game manager? Probably, but who cares. Put those wins up baby!!
gobroncsnv
10-26-2009, 07:10 AM
If Manning is a "game anything", he would have to be more of a CEO...
As far as our current team goes, I don't think our D is good enough to overcome Cutler's gifts to the other teams. Regarding Orton, you wonder how much longer he'll be called a game manager, the longer it is since he played with a glove on. The kid throws a pretty darn good ball when all of his fingers work. As many have said, just look at his record, wherever he's been, a LOT more wins than losses. If a game "manager" is a guy who can manage to not lose the game for the team, I'll take him. But you don't look for too many "managers" who have multiple 90 yard drives in the same game. I LIKE Kyle as our QB.
TXBRONC
10-26-2009, 07:50 AM
I sure that during either OTAs or camp McDaniels was talking with Orton and said something to the effect that his job was to distribute the ball to the appropriate receiver to me that means being a game manager which isn't a bad thing.
pnbronco
10-26-2009, 09:01 AM
You're right the term "manager" is not used as a compliment in football. However I see him as a leader and great team mate that has earned the respect of his team mates. Now I understand why Urlacher spoke up as soon as he heard that Kyle had been traded. It's nice to see good things happening to a good guy.
If Manning is a "game anything", he would have to be more of a CEO...
As far as our current team goes, I don't think our D is good enough to overcome Cutler's gifts to the other teams. Regarding Orton, you wonder how much longer he'll be called a game manager, the longer it is since he played with a glove on. The kid throws a pretty darn good ball when all of his fingers work. As many have said, just look at his record, wherever he's been, a LOT more wins than losses. If a game "manager" is a guy who can manage to not lose the game for the team, I'll take him. But you don't look for too many "managers" who have multiple 90 yard drives in the same game. I LIKE Kyle as our QB.
What was Cutler's record when the opponent was held to 20 or fewer points? Something like 20-1? Whether in McDaniels offense or last years offense, if the Broncos defense was playing like they have this year, gviing up 11 points a game, we would win just fine with Cutler. There 'might' be a few more INTs, but almost certainly a lot more TDs as well.
Having said that, there is no way to know for sure and the only thing that matters is that we are coming out of the bye 6-0.
It's amazing how well a defense can play when they aren't put in bad positions all the time.
TXBRONC
10-26-2009, 10:34 AM
It's amazing how well a defense can play when they aren't put in bad positions all the time.
And its just as amazing when the defense can get turnovers and stop the run and not be ranked 30th in scoring defense.
rcsodak
10-26-2009, 09:51 PM
What was Cutler's record when the opponent was held to 20 or fewer points? Something like 20-1? Whether in McDaniels offense or last years offense, if the Broncos defense was playing like they have this year, gviing up 11 points a game, we would win just fine with Cutler. There 'might' be a few more INTs, but almost certainly a lot more TDs as well.
Having said that, there is no way to know for sure and the only thing that matters is that we are coming out of the bye 6-0.
Oh geesh, tned! You're sounding like a cutler apologist! :laugh:
You know what I have to say to people that keep bringing up poor jay's bad luck? It sure didn't seem to hurt Manning! It's not like he's EVER had a defense to go along with his offense. So how did he handle that? Simple! By OUTSCORING the other team!
Looks to me like he simply can't "manage" his team by putting it on his shoulders and scoring points. Instead, he gets rattled, and resorts to how he's played since pop warner....trying to make the perfect pass....narcissistic enough to think he can thread the proverbial needle with his "stronger arm" than Elway's! But all I see is those patented "high hard ones".
I said he was going to be facing better defenses now, in the NFC, and regretting his tantrum. He couldn't have ended up in a better "QB-Hell" than Chi!
I love hearing about his multiple int games....
....it's restored my faith in 'karma'. :D
Not to mention the fact that Denver has their #1 pick!
rcsodak
10-26-2009, 09:54 PM
And its just as amazing when the defense can get turnovers and stop the run and not be ranked 30th in scoring defense.
^^^^ see above post.
FYI
Defensively, Chi is currently 18th vs the run/16th total yards/22nd in pts.
Last year they gave up almost the IDENTICAL amount of pts (less than a pt difference).
Maybe the fact that in ALL of last year they only threw 14int's (cutler almost has that many already) might have something to do with the fact that poor jay is having to play from behind? I'm sure his defense being on the field more often can't help. The same goes with his Oline. He's making them have to pass block more. Agree?
gobroncsnv
10-26-2009, 10:21 PM
Cutler's mistakes HAVE to account for some of the points against the Bears... And his int's don't just come late in the game when they're trying to catch up. He throws them early and often.
If a game manager means you're more judicious about where (and to whom) you toss the rock, I'll take it. I don't think Orton is a perfect QB, but he's a really good fit for the Broncs. (I've also stopped cringing when we have the ball.)
Iron Horse72
10-26-2009, 11:09 PM
It's amazing how well a defense can play when they aren't put in bad positions all the time.
Like getting third down stops? Those killed me, stops on third down is a huge improvement turnovers are just a bonus.
TXBRONC
10-26-2009, 11:15 PM
Like getting third down stops? Those killed me, stops on third down is a huge improvement turnovers are just a bonus.
I think opposing offenses were converting 3rd downs at right round 60%.
Iron Horse72
10-26-2009, 11:19 PM
I think opposing offenses were converting 3rd downs at right round 60%.
And we were giving huge plays on the ground.
In the last few seasons we couldn't get off the field, it just good to see the pressure on the QB again.
Insted of him standing back there with all day to throw
Northman
10-27-2009, 06:09 AM
^^^^ see above post.
FYI
Defensively, Chi is currently 18th vs the run/16th total yards/22nd in pts.
Last year they gave up almost the IDENTICAL amount of pts (less than a pt difference).
Maybe the fact that in ALL of last year they only threw 14int's (cutler almost has that many already) might have something to do with the fact that poor jay is having to play from behind? I'm sure his defense being on the field more often can't help. The same goes with his Oline. He's making them have to pass block more. Agree?
Yea, one thing i have noticed this year is that early in the games Jay-Cut is driving down the field and turning it over in the redzone early and at that point they are still in the game. Fact is, he is still making poor decisions with the football. Although im sure if the defense that is playing with Jay wasnt giving up the farm he would get more wins but at the same time when your only down 7-0 and then immediately throw picks in the redzone your already putting your suspect defense in a hole which is what he is doing to the Bears. The Denver defense last year was a bit of a different story as they were bad across the board. But you cant say the same with the Bears defense.
Nomad
10-27-2009, 06:35 AM
Whatever he is, it's working, just keep winning.
If game manager means, non flash, risk minimising, winning games, team first, then that's ok with me. As long as he can pull out the stops when it calls for moving up a gear, which he's proved he can do in couple of tight spots already this season, then they can call him whatever they want, as long as the W's keep coming.
To me this is what McDaniels wanted, improve the defense and ST and have the offense do enough to win games! If winning games means the BRONCOS won't put up 40 pts a game and have 3 60 yd td passes then I'm good with it. Orton is doing a good job.
Eventually we'll meet up with a team that will put up alot of points and hopefully Mcdaniels and the offense is prepared for that. maybe they haven't had to get to that point in a game yet! NE game proved they could comeback with a methodical, game manager!!
Oh geesh, tned! You're sounding like a cutler apologist! :laugh:
You know what I have to say to people that keep bringing up poor jay's bad luck? It sure didn't seem to hurt Manning! It's not like he's EVER had a defense to go along with his offense. So how did he handle that? Simple! By OUTSCORING the other team!
Looks to me like he simply can't "manage" his team by putting it on his shoulders and scoring points. Instead, he gets rattled, and resorts to how he's played since pop warner....trying to make the perfect pass....narcissistic enough to think he can thread the proverbial needle with his "stronger arm" than Elway's! But all I see is those patented "high hard ones".
I said he was going to be facing better defenses now, in the NFC, and regretting his tantrum. He couldn't have ended up in a better "QB-Hell" than Chi!
I love hearing about his multiple int games....
....it's restored my faith in 'karma'. :D
Not to mention the fact that Denver has their #1 pick!
Restored your faith in Karma? Oh yea, I forgot, you were one of these people that never forgave Shanahan or Cutler for Jake being benched in favor of Jay.
Sorry, forgot about that traumatic experience. I will try and limit my use of the word Jay in the future.
Timmy!
10-27-2009, 07:39 AM
I think what is lost on a lot of people is Orton is only 26 years old. He will turn 27 in November. It's not like we have QB in the twilight of his career. Orton is young, and is obviously going to do very well in McD's system. Hell, so far he's got a 100 QB rating this season, not to mention only one fumble (which wasn't lost btw)....and he's only 6 games in to this system. Is it really out of the question that captain neckbeard could be the Broncos starting QB for the next 5 or 6 years, at least? Game manager? Call him what you want, I'm all about it, hopefully for years to come.
I think what is lost on a lot of people is Orton is only 26 years old. He will turn 27 in November. It's not like we have QB in the twilight of his career. Orton is young, and is obviously going to do very well in McD's system. Hell, so far he's got a 100 QB rating this season, not to mention only one fumble (which wasn't lost btw)....and he's only 6 games in to this system. Is it really out of the question that captain neckbeard could be the Broncos starting QB for the next 5 or 6 years, at least? Game manager? Call him what you want, I'm all about it, hopefully for years to come.
No, it's not out of the realm of possibility.
First challenge, will he keep playing as well as he has the first six games, which included three games wearing a glove for a lacerated finger.
Second challenge, can the Broncos resign him for a price they think is fair? Or, will the success Orton has in McDaniels system, drive his market price higher than the Broncos are willing to go.
It's still too early to know if he is a long term solution (early performance tells me he could be) and if we can, or want to, resign him.
gobroncsnv
10-27-2009, 06:08 PM
Well, Kyle's certainly improved from what I've seen, since the glove came off. I see a more confident QB in his reads, strength in his throws, and certainly putting the ball to a receiver more accurately and in stride. Contract years work wonders for almost any player's stats the year before, but this seems to be beyond that. I think he's in his comfort zone, growing into it more every game. He'd have to really pick his spot to do better for himself than right here.
Day1BroncoFan
10-27-2009, 06:09 PM
Yea, now he needs to pick it up just a little in the first half. The entire offense needs to pick it up in the first half.
gobroncsnv
10-27-2009, 06:12 PM
Maybe we could talk Royal out of being such a ball hog... give our offense a chance!!!
No, I agree, our first drives could improve. Wierd how our initial game plan (what Shanny was KNOWN for) is the worst of our offense this year... but we really pick things up as the game moves along. Go figger!!!
TXBRONC
10-27-2009, 06:34 PM
Yea, now he needs to pick it up just a little in the first half. The entire offense needs to pick it up in the first half.
No doubt.
SoCoPoCo
10-27-2009, 06:40 PM
One of my co-workers is a diehard Bears fan and he was ribbing me mericlessly after the trade/draft and into the preseason. I was waiting for my moment to come and thanks to a 'stellar' showing from our former QB it came Monday morning: I walked into his office and said 'welcome to the wonderful world of Jay Cutler, get used to it'. I realize this thread is about KO but for context I have to use this example from a fan who is so glad we don't have someone throw for 300 yards while losing 42-10. Kyle Orton - barring injury - will be a VERY GOOD quarterback for years to come and I am very glad he's on our team.
pnbronco
10-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Timmy thanks for the head up on Kyle's Birthday. I don't think I really realized how young he is, must be the beard.
TXBRONC
10-27-2009, 10:02 PM
Timmy thanks for the head up on Kyle's Birthday. I don't think I really realized how young he is, must be the beard.
He was draft in 2005.
Is there a better "game manager" than Peyton Manning? No, but nobody would ever call him a game manager, because it isn't meant as a compliment.
The only QB who was ever called that in a complimentary manner was Ben Roethlisberger.
Remember in the preseason when people were calling for Orton's head and actually thought Brandstater was a better option? :lol:
Seems so silly and ridiculous now. I love me some neckbeard!
Remember in the preseason when people were calling for Orton's head and actually thought Brandstater was a better option? :lol:
Seems so silly and ridiculous now. I love me some neckbeard!
As I said at the time, it was reminiscent of the calls for BVP to start.
broncobryce
10-28-2009, 01:20 AM
As I said at the time, it was reminiscent of the calls for BVP to start.
OMG, those calls.......the guy was terrible, couldn't even complete a pass.
OMG, those calls.......the guy was terrible, couldn't even complete a pass.
Yea, he had a preseason similar to Brandstater, and fans all across the internet and talk radio were screaming for him to start. Much more so than people calling for Brandstater.
It was just as ridiculous to call for BVP to start as it was to call for Brandstater to start this year.
TXBRONC
10-28-2009, 07:32 AM
As I said at the time, it was reminiscent of the calls for BVP to start.
I remember him having that one ok preseason game against the Cardinals that solidified him as the teams back up quarterback in '05. It would not have been pretty if he had been forced to start.
CrazyHorse
10-29-2009, 08:25 AM
Tom Brady used to be considered just a "game manager"
CoachChaz
10-29-2009, 08:33 AM
I hate this term. Every coach in the world is looking for a guy to go out, make plays, lead the team, minimize the mistakes and take advantage of what the defense gives. Some call that a game manager, I call it a quarterback. To each their own
CrazyHorse
10-29-2009, 08:46 AM
I hate this term. Every coach in the world is looking for a guy to go out, make plays, lead the team, minimize the mistakes and take advantage of what the defense gives. Some call that a game manager, I call it a quarterback. To each their own
I agree it's not a good term, but I think it can be applicable. Up until this year Brett Favre was NEVER a game manager. Cutler isn't either. They have the "gunslinger" mentallity. The difference that separates the two styles is that the game manager will play smart and not take many risks. The gunslinger will go all out, boom or bust. A good example is if a pass could be easily be a touchdown or turn into an interception a game manager shies away from it. A gunslinger will go ahead and throw the ball and try and make a play. Players like Cutler and Favre are definitely fun to watch but aren't always the most effective at winning. They can either lead the team on their back or cost the team the game.
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