Bates and Slowick Are Expendable!!!

[Npba900]

Bates and Slowick Are Expendable

Denver could fire Bates and Slowick this season and replace both with a college or untried NFL assistance.....who understands Attack-Lane Repsonsibility Defense.

Right now, Denver has the right personnel on Defense to play a reactionary-attack-stay in your lane Defense! Unleash the DOGS and play attack-attack football. Now why is that so hard to teach and implement.?

As far as our DT's go.......they need to be allowed to just push-rush up the middle to blow up plays and push blockers into the face of their QB's or disrupt the backfield. When the ball is SNAPED...our DT's need to ATTACK and not wait to be attacked and engaged by O-Linemen!! Thats how you keep blockers off your linebackers....CREATE SOME FREAKIN MAYHEM AND CHAOS!

With our DE's, be ready to capitalize on the disruptions created by our relentless attacking DT's, use your inside and outside spin moves! Get your hands up in the QB's throwing lane (who knows you may deflect a pass and cause an interception or cause incomplete passes).

Line backers, if the DTs keep blockers off you! stay in your freaking lanes and clean up the play with SOUND SURE HANDED TACKLING!

Disguise the blitzing of our Safeties and Linebackers! Make our CB's play more in your face bump and run man-to-man coverage to upset the timing btwn WR and QB, while making our safeties play back for the long pass---should our corners get beat!

Tell the secondary to STOP looking into opposing teams backfield prior to the snap of the ball! Just focus on the WR's and our area of responsibility (Try covering your man for 3 or 4 seconds!!). Let the Linebackers have run stopping responsibility. Tell the safeties, at all cost.......dont let WR's get behind you--should your CB's get beat!

JUST PLAY 1970's and 80's style ATTACK STAY IN YOUR LANE DEFENSIVE FOOTBALL!!!

Let's get away from Antiquated Gap-Read-Before You Re-act Style Defense!

[ChampWJ]

The system we play is antiquated, but you want us to play 1970's or 1980's style defense? I'll admit I want Bates gone, but I don't follow your logic.

[Zweems56]

The system we play is antiquated, but you want us to play 1970's or 1980's style defense? I'll admit I want Bates gone, but I don't follow your logic.

Off topic....

I played football against knoshawn.

[Npba900]

The system we play is antiquated, but you want us to play 1970's or 1980's style defense? I'll admit I want Bates gone, but I don't follow your logic.

What's antiquated is Bates' Gap-Read-Before You Re-act Style Defense!

React-Attack-Lane-Responsibility Defense was used thru-out the NFL back in the 70's and 80's and took advantage of the players natural instincts and ability to play attack relentless football.

[omac]

The style I admire when it's clicking like last season is Baltimore's D. What style is that?

[BigBroncLove]

Well, Bates dropped his system at week 6 during the bye. It was decided then that the Broncos in their current state did not have the personel to play a one gap-two gap hybrid system on the interior, gap assignment system that Bates prefers. Week 7 looked promising because the Broncos D looked improved and we beat the Steelers who were steam rolling at the time. That soon faded under the personel, and since has been a sore spot for many of the D personel who have been quoted as saying the constant changes from TC through the early season, and then suddenly dropping it all mid-season has created a lot of problems. Bates even said it may have been a mistake to drop it despite the fact the Broncos do not have the personel currently.

As for the attack-lane system, that has generally been what we've been running on run-D since the system change at week 6. The Dt's have returned to a one-gap, penetrate and bull rush assignment. If you've noticed we simply don't have any talent there. MArcus Thomas is young, and ahs had flashes, so I don't consider him, and MAllard seems to be able to find the backfield on occassion, but for the most part the Broncos since the change do not attack the center. Its a matter of personel not system at this point.

What I truely don't understand is why a lot of people (and I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular) thought that Bates could come in, and in one year implement his system to perfection. It took GB a while. Miami was lucky because they ahd the personel in place to make the system work, but now we should abandon it because it didn't happen in one year? especially after we drafted more DE's that fit into Bates system and not an attack one gap D (where power DE's well rounded for the run and rush are required) and we let go all of our DT's that fit into that system (such as Warren and Myers who would be a good rotational DT in a one gap attack)???

I'm not saying it will happen, but give the man a chance to find real talent to fit into his sytem. Our DT's are terrible. The revolving door at that position this year should be signal enough that every DT outside of Thomas who is growing into the position (and has yet to be a real force) is trash picked up from other teams. We don't have one anchor in the center at all. Bates system is proven to work. Is GB's defense bad this year? no, and their D continues with Bates system. ITs a matter of personel and time. Give it to him and I think it can work. Now the question is, can he find the talent, and can our existing talent adjust properly. I believe they can. They have an entire offseason to work on it, and I hope that Shanny and Bates decide not to play pure vanilla D through the pre-season like this year.

Sure we could move on without Bates or Slowik. However in this league you don't just cut major coaches like Defensive Coordinators (and Bates is basically the DC despite the title of assistent head coach to D) without a clear cut improvement that your able to bring in. Otherwise your just playing reactionary and trying to buy time with the fans, not wins for your team. Its one season with an entirely new system and a lot of new peronsel. Everything doesn't happen in the blink of an eye. Now if the same crap continues next year, I say a good hard look needs to be given to someone new, but to make all these changes to a team for a system that has yet to be tested in more then 5 games is giving up to quick in my book.

[SR]

The style I admire when it's clicking like last season is Baltimore's D. What style is that?

Bigger, stronger, faster, kick you in the teeth until you're scared to play, style.

[ChampWJ]

Sure we could move on without Bates or Slowik. However in this league you don't just cut major coaches like Defensive Coordinators (and Bates is basically the DC despite the title of assistent head coach to D) without a clear cut improvement that your able to bring in.

Exactly. Just like the clear cut improvement we brought in after Coyer was fired. Wait............

[BigBroncLove]

Exactly. Just like the clear cut improvement we brought in after Coyer was fired. Wait............

Well, he was seen as an improvement by almost everybody. Like I said, with a new system liek this you can't expect everything to fall into place in one season.

If I am nto mistaken though, everyone called for Coyer's head as well. I doubt any of us are exception to that rule. After all, you can only win so many games when your D shuts down into a prevent D everytime you have a lead in the 4th and almost never blitzes :lol: .

While we're on the subject, do you have a better improvement in mind? :coffee:

[ChampWJ]

Well, he was seen as an improvement by almost everybody. Like I said, with a new system liek this you can't expect everything to fall into place in one season.

If I am nto mistaken though, everyone called for Coyer's head as well. I doubt any of us are exception to that rule. After all, you can only win so many games when your D shuts down into a prevent D everytime you have a lead in the 4th and almost never blitzes :lol: .

While we're on the subject, do you have a better improvement in mind? :coffee:

I see your point, but if we were to keep to your plan, just about anybody could be considered a clear cut improvement after the so-called "defense" we put on the field this year. The problems were evident in the preseason, and watching this defense make hardly any improvements all season long just shows the weakness of Bates and his staff at making adjustments.

I would not be the least bit surprised if Shanahan has seen enough and decides to get rid of Bates before committing any more resources to add players that fit his system.

[SR]

If Bates abandon his system during the BYE and we played some other brand of defense for the rest of the year, what makes any of you think that even with better personnel up front they would be able to adapt to it next year when the core of our d-line couldn't get it this year? I fail to see how keeping Bates' system around would be a good thing in any way. Doesn't make sense to me.

[omac]

Bigger, stronger, faster, kick you in the teeth until you're scared to play, style.

N - N - Now - Th - That won't kill me ... :D

[BigBroncLove]

I see your point, but if we were to keep to your plan, just about anybody could be considered a clear cut improvement after the so-called "defense" we put on the field this year. The problems were evident in the preseason, and watching this defense make hardly any improvements all season long just shows the weakness of Bates and his staff at making adjustments.

I would not be the least bit surprised if Shanahan has seen enough and decides to get rid of Bates before committing any more resources to add players to fit his system.

Well I agree, after this year improvement is basically the only place this D can go. However the evaluations I think will be targeted more at the perosnel hen the coaching staff. A lot of writers have thrown rumors around that Bates mgiht have some fire under his butt, such as Williamson (who I like) from the post, but look at what some of the players have to say...

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/31/changes-defense-expected/


"I have no doubt he can do it here," Bailey said. "I just think we need the right people for him. I don't know. Maybe he's the right guy for us, maybe he isn't. But he's been great everywhere on defense. And I don't see why it couldn't work here."


"There's one side of you that says you have to blow it up but the other side of it is the team did what it needed to do in drafting a bunch of young defensive linemen last year and I think we have to stick with it," said Broncos safety John Lynch, who will ponder his future after 15 NFL seasons in the coming weeks.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7787961


"He has an amazing track record," Foxworth said. "I would say this last season was an aberration. It was definitely not the norm in his career. I would say he's not the problem."

Those are all recent. I think it is likely that BAtes will stay and the Broncos wil ltry and keep with it, but like you I wouldn't hold it against Shanny, Bowlen, or the Broncos for parting ways and going in a different direction. However as you pointed to this year, is a new direction going to make things better, or jsut confuse and frustrate the BRoncos players more? It soudns as if the biggest thing the Broncos want is continuity....


"One of the great things I learned from Tony Dungy is, he said when things don't work, everyone wants to change, change, change," said Lynch, speaking about his former Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach. "He was more, 'We're going to stick with what we've got and make it better.' I think there's been so much change here that sometimes sticking to something will make things better.

[BigBroncLove]

If Bates abandon his system during the BYE and we played some other brand of defense for the rest of the year, what makes any of you think that even with better personnel up front they would be able to adapt to it next year when the core of our d-line couldn't get it this year? I fail to see how keeping Bates' system around would be a good thing in any way. Doesn't make sense to me.

Bates said abonding the system was a mistake. The reason he dropped it in the first palce was the Broncos didn;t have the talent to run his system. IT wasn;t that the players weren't getting his system (though admittadly the LB's were constantly making lane assignment mistakes) it was that the players didn't fit into his system. Still, even when the system was dropped Bailey said people were still making mental mistakes on their assignments (a one gap system has assignmetns as well). So it was a matter of leadership at the front seven and pure msitakes, not the system IMO. I think they can do it, GB and Miami did well under it. Almsot every team BAtes has coached has done well under his system. None of them were a force through their first season. GB onyl adjusted properly and did well in his system 9 games into the season. Miami, after injuries riddled the team, adjusted at the end of Bates first season with them. I nthe end it worked.

I'm not saying it will work, but that chacne should be given for it to work.

[dogfish]

Line backers, if the DTs keep blockers off you! stay in your freaking lanes and clean up the play with SOUND SURE HANDED TACKLING!


unfortunately, our LBs other than dj have shown damn little ability to handle these basic responsibilities-- which is why we'll probably have some new LBs next year. . .





i have a hard time figuring out why people think bates has forgotten how to coach over the past two year. . . his system wasn't too antiquated to make a big improvement in green bay. . . now i'm also hearing people say that the NFL has passed shanahan by-- cripes people, the league certainly does evolve, but it doesn't evolve THAT fast! the 3-4 was used first in the 70's if i remember correctly, and it's obviously come back into vogue over the past decade. . . and i don't see why more teams every year are incorporating the ZBS if it's "antiquated"-- for that matter, our offense is based on the west coast offense, a style that's a good twenty years old at least, and still the most commonly used offensive philosophy in the game. . .

our schemes would be fine if we had better personnel to execute them-- and while schemees and coaching can hide weaknesses to a certain extent, it only goes so far. . .

[omac]

If Bates abandon his system during the BYE and we played some other brand of defense for the rest of the year, what makes any of you think that even with better personnel up front they would be able to adapt to it next year when the core of our d-line couldn't get it this year? I fail to see how keeping Bates' system around would be a good thing in any way. Doesn't make sense to me.

I guess if Denver really wanted to apply Bates' system, they'd have to stick with it while knowing they'll suck for most of the season until they finally get it. If they do that, the I'm all for getting a great OT to protect Cutler, since we'll have to score a ton to stay ahead in games.

[omac]

Bates said abonding the system was a mistake. The reason he dropped it in the first palce was the Broncos didn;t have the talent to run his system. IT wasn;t that the players weren't getting his system (though admittadly the LB's were constantly making lane assignment mistakes) it was that the players didn't fit into his system. Still, even when the system was dropped Bailey said people were still making mental mistakes on their assignments (a one gap system has assignmetns as well). So it was a matter of leadership at the front seven and pure msitakes, not the system IMO. I think they can do it, GB and Miami did well under it. Almsot every team BAtes has coached has done well under his system. None of them were a force through their first season. GB onyl adjusted properly and did well in his system 9 games into the season. Miami, after injuries riddled the team, adjusted at the end of Bates first season with them. I nthe end it worked.

I'm not saying it will work, but that chacne should be given for it to work.

Everyone keeps saying GB and Miami; I was wondering, what happened to Miami after he left them? Did they just scrap his scheme? Miami defense is dead last against the run. :eek:

[BigBroncLove]

Everyone keeps saying GB and Miami; I was wondering, what happened to Miami after he left them? Did they just scrap his scheme? Miami defense is dead last against the run. :eek:

I have to be onest, I really don't know. I know the current GB DC was one of Bates protege's and was kept to keep GB in Bates system and refine it with what he could. Miami... that's another story. There to I think they kept another one of Bates protege's to keep the system in palce (though not 100% sure on that), but the personel changes have caused havoc. After all, in Bates system the MLB is the most important player in the front seven. Without Zach Thomas most of the season that has caused havoc. After some hardship due to losses in games and players (trades, FA, and injury) I'm not sure what Cam Cameron chose to do, but whatever is happening now in Miam, the loss of Bates is showing big time where players like Taylor averaged 13 sacks with BAtes and Thomas had league highs in tackles.

That's an interesting question though, one worth pursuing IMO.

[omac]

Jim Bates was the defensive coordinator for Miami from 2000-2004, and here's how Miami did, as well as Denver .....

Miami
2004 Rush-31 Pass-3
2003 Rush-5 Pass-19
2002 Rush-5 Pass-8
2001 Rush-17 Pass-1
2000 Rush-14 Pass-5

Denver
2004 Rush-4 Pass-6
2003 Rush-7 Pass-6
2002 Rush-4 Pass-17
2001 Rush-6 Pass-16
2000 Rush-7 Pass-31

Uh-oh ... our rush defense has been consistently great during that period, while our pass defense has ranged from great twice, average twice, and poor only once. Denver's also had 2 years during that period where they had both excellent rush and pass defense.

Miami's had only 1 season where both their rush and pass defense were excellent. The rest of the time, if their run-D was excellent, their pass-D was average, and vice versa. On his last season there, the run-D was horrendous, but I don't know if he was there for the whole season.

These are just stats, though, so they don't take into account if Miami was better qualitatively, but it sure looks like Denver was consistently better than Miami on defense. :eek:

(added) 2003 and 2004, where the Broncos were good against both the run and the pass, our defensive coordinator was ... Larry Coyer. Also with Coyer ... 2006 Rush-12 Pass-21, 2005 Rush-2 Pass-29.

[BigBroncLove]

Jim Bates was the defensive coordinator for Miami from 2000-2004, and here's how Miami did, as well as Denver .....

Miami
2004 Rush-31 Pass-3
2003 Rush-5 Pass-19
2002 Rush-5 Pass-8
2001 Rush-17 Pass-1
2000 Rush-14 Pass-5

Denver
2004 Rush-4 Pass-6
2003 Rush-7 Pass-6
2002 Rush-4 Pass-17
2001 Rush-6 Pass-16
2000 Rush-7 Pass-31

Uh-oh ... our rush defense has been consistently great during that period, while our pass defense has ranged from great twice, average twice, and poor only once. Denver's also had 2 years during that period where they had both excellent rush and pass defense.

Miami's had only 1 season where both their rush and pass defense were excellent. The rest of the time, if their run-D was excellent, their pass-D was average, and vice versa. On his last season there, the run-D was horrendous, but I don't know if he was there for the whole season.

These are just stats, though, so they don't take into account if Miami was better qualitatively, but it sure looks like Denver was consistently better than Miami on defense. :eek:

Every year BAtes was with Miami, Miami was a top 10 defense.

2000 - Ranked 6th overall in Defense. (That year the Broncos were ranked 24th)

2001 - Ranked 5th overall in Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 8th)

2002 - Ranked 3rd overall in Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 6th)

2003 - Ranked 10th in overall Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 3rd)

2004 - Ranked 8th in overall Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 4th)

Now, as yo ucan see there is mroe to defense then how yo udo against the run or pass. Points allowed per game, third down conversion percentage, penalty yards, turnovers, and everything else inbetween. As you can also see the Broncos had some great years on defense. However of the 5 years in question, 3 of the five Miami was ranked higher. I still miss those days, but it should also be rememebred during those great years of D we had a much better D-line. (bertrand Berry, Trevor Pryce, etc, etc,)

[dogfish]

Everyone keeps saying GB and Miami; I was wondering, what happened to Miami after he left them? Did they just scrap his scheme? Miami defense is dead last against the run. :eek:



i can't remember who they had from '05-'06 (dom capers has been their DC the past two years), but shortly after bates left they switched to a hybrid 3-4 scheme. . . in any case, the reason they suck so bad this year is because their best players are older than dirt-- plus they let some guys go over the offseason and didn't adequatley replace them. . .


edit: and i agree with BBL-- those defensive rankings can be really deceptive. . . myself, i'm more worried about how many points you give up than how many yards. . .

[omac]

Every year BAtes was with Miami, Miami was a top 10 defense.

2000 - Ranked 6th overall in Defense. (That year the Broncos were ranked 24th)

2001 - Ranked 5th overall in Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 8th)

2002 - Ranked 3rd overall in Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 6th)

2003 - Ranked 10th in overall Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 3rd)

2004 - Ranked 8th in overall Defense (that year the Broncos were ranked 4th)

Now, as yo ucan see there is mroe to defense then how yo udo against the run or pass. Points allowed per game, third down conversion percentage, penalty yards, turnovers, and everything else inbetween. As you can also see the Broncos had some great years on defense. However of the 5 years in question, 3 of the five Miami was ranked higher. I still miss those days, but it should also be rememebred during those great years of D we had a much better D-line. (bertrand Berry, Trevor Pryce, etc, etc,)

That is true, but for some years, like 2004, sure they were ranked 8th overall, but they were still 31st against the run. That's just not good. It's like the Raiders having the best pass defense but the worst run defense.

I guess I want to know is, what makes Bates' system potentially better than what the Broncos used to have?

[BigBroncLove]

That is true, but for some years, like 2004, sure they were ranked 8th overall, but they were still 31st against the run. That's just not good. It's like the Raiders having the best pass defense but the worst run defense.

I guess I want to know is, what makes Bates' system potentially better than what the Broncos used to have?

Its good for the pass rush. His system has shown to create tons of sacks as Jason Taylor, KGB, and others have benefited from his system. Thats why he was brought in. The complete loss of run D has been a major problem as a result of the change, but I do not think it is symptomatic of his system. I don't think nayone wil largue one of the major problems in 06 was the pass rush. QB's had all day to pass against us and Bates was brought in to implement a system known to pressure the QB and create top 10 defenses. Especially when one of the major things on Shanny's checklist is stop Manning, and Bates has been known for great pass D.

I don't think either Shanny or Bates envisioned this meltdown against the run, but it certienly will be a hot issue this coming year. I think besides the interior of line which has been gutted and needs serious revamping, the biggest piece missing is a man named Wilson who I literally hated to see go (and I remember all those ******** who felt it was time to part with him. I know now it was the injruy most of all, but I don't think anyone now doubts how big an asset Wilson was to this team). With a solid group of DT's and a Wilson calibre MLB in bates system, I think the Broncos can be very succesfull against the run and create the pressure Bates was brought in to foster into Denver.

[omac]

Well, I checked again and BBL is right, Miami was consistently among the best in points allowed per game.

We're currently one of the worst right now. :D

[SR]

I guess I want to know is, what makes Bates' system potentially better than what the Broncos used to have?

Nothing IMO. I'm beginning to think that his success was more luck and coincidence than it was his scheme. He had all pro players for him in Miami in Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor, etc.

[omac]

Its good for the pass rush. His system has shown to create tons of sacks as Jason Taylor, KGB, and others have benefited from his system. Thats why he was brought in. The complete loss of run D has been a major problem as a result of the change, but I do not think it is symptomatic of his system. I don't think nayone wil largue one of the major problems in 06 was the pass rush. QB's had all day to pass against us and Bates was brought in to implement a system known to pressure the QB and create top 10 defenses. Especially when one of the major things on Shanny's checklist is stop Manning, and Bates has been known for great pass D.

I don't think either Shanny or Bates envisioned this meltdown against the run, but it certienly will be a hot issue this coming year. I think besides the interior of line which has been gutted and needs serious revamping, the biggest piece missing is a man named Wilson who I literally hated to see go (and I remember all those ******** who felt it was time to part with him. I know now it was the injruy most of all, but I don't think anyone now doubts how big an asset Wilson was to this team). With a solid group of DT's and a Wilson calibre MLB in bates system, I think the Broncos can be very succesfull against the run and create the pressure Bates was brought in to foster into Denver.

Nice post! :salute: After the AFC Championship drubbing, pass rush seemed to be the area of greatest need. Now, it's the rush-d.

Besides the DTs, do you think our weakness against the rush has anything to do with DJ directing the defense?

[BigBroncLove]

Nice post! :salute: After the AFC Championship drubbing, pass rush seemed to be the area of greatest need. Now, it's the rush-d.

Besides the DTs, do you think our weakness against the rush has anything to do with DJ directing the defense?

I do. I am ah uge DJ WIlliams fan, so that is something I should say off the bat. I have one of his jerseys, and hated watching him languish in the SAM position at LB. However after watching this season I don't think he is ready to step up as a leader on the field. In the locekr room perhaps. Lynch and Bailey told him to step up as a leader, but his direction on the field has seemed lacking. There was little doubt that Wilson had that leadership. You saw it on the field, hell you could feel it. However given the number of mistakes the LB core has made in bates system, and when they switched back to a normal 4-3 one gap system, I think something has happened at a leadership level to the LB core.

Now does that mean that this year of MLB hasn't made Willaims a better leader and could forge him into a true one i nthe comign seasons? thats not for me to say, though I think he has progressed fairly well through the season and seems to be directing things better at his position now. However, I do feel as far as this year is concerned that a void was created by Wilson, most importantly in his ability to read offenses, adjust the front seven, and basically lead them to play great D.

[SR]

the biggest piece missing is a man named Wilson who I literally hated to see go (and I remember all those ******** who felt it was time to part with him. I know now it was the injruy most of all, but I don't think anyone now doubts how big an asset Wilson was to this team). With a solid group of DT's and a Wilson calibre MLB in bates system, I think the Broncos can be very succesfull against the run and create the pressure Bates was brought in to foster into Denver.

I don't buy any of that. DJ will be just fine in the middle.

[BigBroncLove]

I don't buy any of that. DJ will be just fine in the middle.

I didn't say he wouldn;t be fine, I think he could grow into a great MLB, but he wasn't ready for it this season. He has improved but if you notice in the first 5 games he barely ever adjusted the front seven to react to the offense. Something Wilson did constantly, usually for the better. His skills, his talent, his pure phsical skills are amazing, but his leadership IMO lacking. Just because Wilson left a void doesn't mean I said DJ isn't a good player. That's reading more into my post then was written :coffee:

[dogfish]

Well, I checked again and BBL is right, Miami was consistently among the best in points allowed per game.

We're currently one of the worst right now. :D


to take that comparison a step further, look at what green bay did this year with quality players running bates' scheme, compared to what we did-- they allowed a very respectable 291 total points, where we gave up a horrendous 409 points. . . . :mad:


Nothing IMO. I'm beginning to think that his success was more luck and coincidence than it was his scheme. He had all pro players for him in Miami in Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor, etc.


no question that he had the benefit of a lot of talent on those miami defenses, and that other coaches could also have done well with those guys. . . . but i think you do have to give him some credit for developing some of the players that green bay has had such success with this year, including nick barnett, cullen jenkins, aaron kampman and corey williams. . . .

[BOSSHOGG30]

Please fire Slowik... he sucks!

Does this mean that we can trade Moss as well since he won't be as good in a regular 4-3 system? He is more a 3-4 linebacker type.

[SR]

Please fire Slowik... he sucks!

Does this mean that we can trade Moss as well since he won't be as good in a regular 4-3 system? He is more a 3-4 linebacker type.

Good call.

[BOSSHOGG30]

how funny would it be if Denver went after Cam Cameron, should he be fired in Miami, as the new offensive coordinator or Mike Martz out of Detroit?

[SR]

how funny would it be if Denver went after Cam Cameron, should he be fired in Miami, as the new offensive coordinator or Mike Martz out of Detroit?

Some of us were talking about Martz in the thread about him getting canned. I think I'd be happy with either one of them as coordinators. We shall see. Parcells may choose to keep Cameron on board for another year or two. That whole organization is going to get a pretty big shakeup.

[BigBroncLove]

Please fire Slowik... he sucks!

Does this mean that we can trade Moss as well since he won't be as good in a regular 4-3 system? He is more a 3-4 linebacker type.

I don't think I've seen a thread near the top where you didn't bring up the moss 3-4 LB comment.

Yes, he is undersized in his rookie season as a DE in a 4-3, however that does not mean he is destined to remain undersized as a 4-3 DE or that he is better suited for a 3-4 LB status. Why?

Firstly to be a 3-4 LB you have to have cover capabilities. This can be tought, but just because you fit the size of the position doesn;t mean you are suited for the flexability required for a 3-4 LB. Also, a lot of great DE's come in undersized their rookie year. It takes time to put the weight on, adjust to NFL style of play, and settle into your natural NFL weight. These guys are 23, 24 years old. They have varying degrees of conditioning, and the NFL changes all of that with the work ethic that is required, and the nutritionist each employs.

Look at Osi Umenyiora. 261 lbs, 6-3 and has proven to be one of the best DE's out there this year. Jason Taylor is another smaller DE that has had many great years in this league. Dumerville is likewise undersized as a DE, so under your logic, why isn't he also a 3-4 LB?

So firstly, give the kid time to develop. Weight can be added, its a common thing, especially for rookies (And Moss definately has the frame to add penty of weight). Furthermore, simply because your not 275 doesn't mean you can't play DE in this league in a 4-3. He was playing well before his injury (and the injury worries me given his college record) and his technique and repotoire of moves was being hailed by the coaching staff as very good for a rookie. Labeling him so young, with as much time as he has to develop, as a system player in a system he has never played in based solely on his weight is playing football by statistics IMO.

[atwater27]

Some of us were talking about Martz in the thread about him getting canned. I think I'd be happy with either one of them as coordinators. We shall see. Parcells may choose to keep Cameron on board for another year or two. That whole organization is going to get a pretty big shakeup.

Just say no to Martz!!! He abandons the run with abandon!

[Retired_Member_001]

Please fire Slowik... he sucks!

Does this mean that we can trade Moss as well since he won't be as good in a regular 4-3 system? He is more a 3-4 linebacker type.

Jarvis is up at 275lbs.

If you are trying to call him undersized, don't.

[ChampWJ]

Jarvis is up at 275lbs.

If you are trying to call him undersized, don't.

I saw him at a restaurant a couple weeks ago and he's a beast for sure. I never knew he was that tall. He still uses a cane to walk, but hopefully he makes enough progress to be ready for training camp.

[slim]

Just say no to Martz!!! He abandons the run with abandon!

Agreed, I don't want any part of Martz. Our running game would be non-existent and he would get Cutler killed (to many deep routes/drops).

[BigDaddyBronco]

Shanny has got too big an ego to want any part of Martz and his ego.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Jarvis is up at 275lbs.

If you are trying to call him undersized, don't.

Is DeMarcus Ware small? Is Terrell Suggs small? NO.. what makes you think I'm saying this?

Outside linebackers in the 3-4 defense tend to be larger in comparison to linebackers in a base 4-3 defense. They are also often players who would play DE in a 4-3 defense as situational pass rushing specialists.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I know what yer saying Scar, but I also think Moss will be just fine as a 4-3 DE. He showed positive signs pre-injury and he is also getting bigger. I think the combo og he and Crowder starting w/ Elvis pass rushing will do quite well for us for a long time.

[BigBroncLove]

Is DeMarcus Ware small? Is Terrell Suggs small? NO.. what makes you think I'm saying this?

Outside linebackers in the 3-4 defense tend to be larger in comparison to linebackers in a base 4-3 defense. They are also often players who would play DE in a 4-3 defense as situational pass rushing specialists.

So, if your not saying Moss is undersized, which IMO you generally rejected based upon your response to Wookie, what about Moss makes you think he would be a better 3-4 LB then a 4-3 DE?

He has never played a 3-4. Has never played LB. Is prized as a pass rusher, which is part of the job description of an OLB in a 3-4, but is only part of that job description. So, I'm just struggling to find the reasoning for him being a 3-4 LB candidate outside of his size.....

[BOSSHOGG30]

So, if your not saying Moss is undersized, which IMO you generally rejected based upon your response to Wookie, what about Moss makes you think he would be a better 3-4 LB then a 4-3 DE?

He has never played a 3-4. Has never played LB. Is prized as a pass rusher, which is part of the job description of an OLB in a 3-4, but is only part of that job description. So, I'm just struggling to find the reasoning for him being a 3-4 LB candidate outside of his size.....

Do you understand what type of outside linebacker is required to run a 3-4?

The outside linebackers are some of the best athletes in the league. And many times they're as big as the ends in a 4-3. In fact, a lot of them are former college defensive ends, such as the Cowboys' DeMarcus Ware (6-4, 252) and the Chargers' Shawne Merriman (6-4, 272). I understand he has never played in a 3-4 defense, but the same can be said about Ware, Merriman, and the many other outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense. Moss has the size, speed, and agility that 3-4 defenses love. Before the draft Moss was ranked with Anthony Spencer as two of the top 3-4 linebackers in the draft. He was actually compared to Manny Lawson... who.... is playing for the 49ers in the 3-4.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Moss breakdown:

Athletic Ability
Outstanding athlete with great speed, fluidity and body control. Possesses excellent leaping ability.

Character
Intelligent and enthusiastic young man. Suspended for the Western Carolina game in 2006 for violation of team rules.

Competitive Nature/Leadership Ability
Hustles on game day and puts in extra hours after practice. Not really regarded as a team leader.

Football Intelligence
Only a one-year starter in college. A disciplined down linemen who plays solid gap control football.

Size
Tall defender with long arms, broad shoulders and tight hips. Possesses solid muscle tone, but lacks ideal bulk.

Toughness/Durability
Plagued by a pelvic injury since high school. Suffered a hernia 2003 and a staph infection in 2004. Spent six weeks in the hospital prior to the 2005 season.

Work Ethic
Self motivated player who overcame losing 40 pounds due to a staph infection and nearly being forced to quit football.

Instincts/Recognition
Understands blocking schemes, rarely errs reading pass or run. Anticipates the snap well and generates an excellent first step. Has a good feel for the ball in open space and rarely faked by misdirection plays.

Pass Rush
Possesses an explosive first step. A dangerous edge rusher because of his burst and closing speed. Demonstrates the athleticism and second gear to close when turning the corner. Has an excellent feel for slipping off blocks and getting to the quarterback, particularly with his swim move. Lacks power and variety off the edge. Uses his rip and club moves somewhat adequately, but his bull rush is simply nonexistent.

Pursuit
Perhaps at his best making plays in pursuit. Closes quickly in open space and from the backside. Locates ball carriers quickly. If he gets a lane to the quarterback, he will make the play every time.

Quickness
Excellent overall quickness and agility. Has sharp change of direction skills and good balance. Has the flexibility to redirect as a pass rusher.

Run Defending
Simply overpowered at the point of attack due to a lack of necessary bulk and strength. Has some ability slipping off blocks to disrupt runs. Does a good job of maintaining separation when stringing runs wide.

Strength
Not a powerful player. Lacks the lower body strength to anchor in the phone booth and the upper body power to jolt and move blockers. Only benched 16 reps at the combine.

Tackling
Engulfs runners in space because of his speed and reach. Sound tackler who rarely misses and flashes some pop in his hits.

Technique/Leverage
Plays with sound pad level. Stays low rounding the corner, making him to difficult to slow down. Gets low playing the run, but with little effectiveness. Has room to improve using his hands to disable and disengage from blockers. Needs to do a better job of protecting his legs and lower body when working through trash.

[BigBroncLove]

Do you understand what type of outside linebacker is required to run a 3-4?

The outside linebackers are some of the best athletes in the league. And many times they're as big as the ends in a 4-3. In fact, a lot of them are former college defensive ends, such as the Cowboys' DeMarcus Ware (6-4, 252) and the Chargers' Shawne Merriman (6-4, 272). I understand he has never played in a 3-4 defense, but the same can be said about Ware, Merriman, and the many other outside linebackers in a 3-4 defense. Moss has the size, speed, and agility that 3-4 defenses love. Before the draft Moss was ranked with Anthony Spencer as two of the top 3-4 linebackers in the draft. He was actually compared to Manny Lawson... who.... is playing for the 49ers in the 3-4.

I know plenty about 3-4 LB's, thank you. I didn't ask for a breakdown of what an OLB looks like or does in the NFL. What I am saying is the only thing that you have to suggest Moss would be a candidate for a 3-4 is his size. If he was ten pounds heavier at the combine, all of that talk about him being a potential 3-4 LB would have gone to the way side. And while you loo kat the few players who have converted from a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB, there are as many if not more players who entered the league as situational pass rusher size and ballooned to a real DE threat. His speed, his agility, all those thigns work just as much in favor for him as a DE as they do an 3-4 OLB. Speed rushers with the ability to power like Moss has are just as prized at the 4-3 DE position as the size and speed he brings to the table as a 3-4 LB are.

I do agree though, before the draft he was prized as a possible 3-4 OLB candidate, I never suggested otherwise, btu to label him as you stated before in another thread "as only being a 3-4 LB" and "only being a mediocre 4-3 DE" is basing his NFL career on his combine stats. Like I said, that's playing football by statistics, which never works. Look at Maurice Jones-Drew, umenyiora, Dumerville, or countless others for lessons in that.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I know plenty about 3-4 LB's, thank you. I didn't ask for a breakdown of what an OLB looks like or does in the NFL. What I am saying is the only thing that you have to suggest Moss would be a candidate for a 3-4 is his size. If he was ten pounds heavier at the combine, all of that talk about him being a potential 3-4 LB would have gone to the way side. And while you loo kat the few players who have converted from a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 OLB, there are as many if not more players who entered the league as situational pass rusher size and ballooned to a real DE threat. His speed, his agility, all those thigns work just as much in favor for him as a DE as they do an 3-4 OLB. Speed rushers with the ability to power like Moss has are just as prized at the 4-3 DE position as the size and speed he brings to the table as a 3-4 LB are.

I do agree though, before the draft he was prized as a possible 3-4 OLB candidate, I never suggested otherwise, btu to label him as you stated before in another thread "as only being a 3-4 LB" and "only being a mediocre 4-3 DE" is basing his NFL career on his combine stats.

I feel he prosper in a 3-4 scheme. He needs better upper and lower body strength to be an effective 4-3 end. Right now he is a pass rush specialist. I don't like the fact that we traded up in the 1st round to pick up a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. He would probably get more playing time in a 3-4 scheme over our 4-3 scheme.

[BigBroncLove]

I feel he prosper in a 3-4 scheme. He needs better upper and lower body strength to be an effective 4-3 end. Right now he is a pass rush specialist. I don't like the fact that we traded up in the 1st round to pick up a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. He would probably get more playing time in a 3-4 scheme over our 4-3 scheme.

HEs not a pass rushing specialist in Bates scheme, which is why he was drafted. BAtes scheme runs a two gap interior, edge pass rush, speed LB defense. Thats the reason we picked him up. Because under Bates scheme he is the quentessential DE. We didn't pick him up with the idea of him being a pass rush specialist, nor is he envisioned as one. Believe it or not, given Moss's 6-6 frame, the fact his muscle is not maxed out, almost everyone felt since he was coming out as a Junior he had plenty of time to bulk up. Its hard to imagine Moss staying at that weight for even a small poriton of his career. Hes very young, his matabolism is slowing down, and muscle mass will pile on with the high tempo weight workouts the NFL uses. If you look ay every draft profile, it is said he is undersized but can add bulk without losing much if any of his speed and agility which makes him the perfect developmental DE in a 4-3.

Some De's are born, some are forged. Moss happens to have all the talents of one with what looks to be minimal development. If he can stay healthy I think he will do mroe then just fine as a 4-3 DE, he will be a force as one.

[BOSSHOGG30]

HEs not a pass rushing specialist in Bates scheme, which is why he was drafted. BAtes scheme runs a two gap interior, edge pass rush, speed LB defense. Thats the reason we picked him up. Because under Bates scheme he is the quentessential DE. We didn't pick him up with the idea of him being a pass rush specialist, nor is he envisioned as one. Believe it or not, given Moss's 6-6 frame, the fact his muscle is not maxed out, almost everyone felt since he was coming out as a Junior he had plenty of time to bulk up. Its hard to imagine Moss staying at that weight for even a small poriton of his career. Hes very young, his matabolism is slowing down, and muscle mass will pile on with the high tempo weight workouts the NFL uses. If you look ay every draft profile, it is said he is undersized but can add bulk without losing much if any of his speed and agility which makes him the perfect developmental DE in a 4-3.

Some De's are born, some are forged. Moss happens to have all the talents of one with what looks to be minimal development. If he can stay healthy I think he will do mroe then just fine as a 4-3 DE, he will be a force as one.

It has nothing to do with size... It has a lot to do with strength he needs to improve his strength. This is my opinion and the opinion of many others before and after the draft. I also stated that if Bates gets canned, then does that mean we can or will look to trade Jarvis Moss. I understand he fits the bill for Bates scheme, but the fact is he doesn't fit the bill for most 4-3 schemes, but 3-4. Most 4-3 schemes he would be a situational pass rush specialist. Obviously you and me can't agree on what is best for Jarvis Moss, but maybe we can agree on this.... Hopefully you are right and I'm wrong in the long run.

[BigBroncLove]

It has nothing to do with size... It has a lot to do with strength he needs to improve his strength. This is my opinion and the opinion of many others before and after the draft. I also stated that if Bates gets canned, then does that mean we can or will look to trade Jarvis Moss. I understand he fits the bill for Bates scheme, but the fact is he doesn't fit the bill for most 4-3 schemes, but 3-4. Most 4-3 schemes he would be a situational pass rush specialist. Obviously you and me can't agree on what is best for Jarvis Moss, but maybe we can agree on this.... Hopefully you are right and I'm wrong in the long run.

I will agree. Coming in his ability to get off tackles and use power as an advantage was in question, and still remains one. That is his biggest issue. But with so much time, size, and frame to grow into his strength can only increase and his speed decrease. He has plenty of the latter to sacrifice for the former IMO. However after watching him play the few games he was in, and his ability to get to the quarterback despite his size issues already, I think that will be less and less an issue. Especially as he refines his technique.

I do agree though, I hope I am right in the long run, and I think you have valid poitns, but I do think we will have to agree to disagree. None the less, it will be interesting to see how he develops into next year. Dumervilles leap forward was more then I ever expected. While moss doesn't have the leverage advantage, his arms are mcuh longer, and his spin move is incredily fast which he uses to his advantage well. Its a shame he didn;t get this entire year to grow into the position and gain the experience he was undoubtably looking for. The good news is Ekuban should be back and at the very least he can help mentor (Where Rice seemed lacking) and at the best can show them the techniques for both pass rushing and run defense to leap forward more quickly.

[Simple Jaded]

The style I admire when it's clicking like last season is Baltimore's D. What style is that?


But that defense has something Bates defense needs too, Haloti Ngata......The Broncos need a player like that regardless of whether they keep Bates or not.

The defensive line gets pushed around far too easily.

Btw, Jarvis Moss held up just fine against the run while he was healthy, so if you're thinking of trading him, you better include Dumervil, who is worse against the run than Moss......

[TXBRONC]

I feel he prosper in a 3-4 scheme. He needs better upper and lower body strength to be an effective 4-3 end. Right now he is a pass rush specialist. I don't like the fact that we traded up in the 1st round to pick up a pass rush specialist and not an every down player. He would probably get more playing time in a 3-4 scheme over our 4-3 scheme.

Moss wasn't selected to be just pass rush specialist. Shanahan and Bates knew when they drafted Moss he was going to have gain strength to be an everydown player. Heck Crowder who has the upper and lower body strength that you're talking about could crack the starting line up this year.

[Hawgdriver]

If we get the right people on the bus, Bates will take us to where we want to go.

The first contentious issue is what to do with DJ. He's obviously a prototypical Mike LB from the performance aspect, so we should keep him there--right? But what about the comment from Champ, that the D doesn't have an identity? I attribute most of that to the departure of Al Wilson and the Bates scheme flip-flop after the bye. I think it's clear that DJ is no Al Wilson, and that spells trouble for establishing a defensive 'identity'. While DJ is a beast at the position, he's not the leader you need to forge a dominant defense. We can hope that if we keep him at Mike, which is the only realistic alternative, he'll try on Al's shoes and step into the required role. His development as defensive captain is the most crucial aspect of our development as a defense.

The next big issue is the personnel changes. We know that there will be a lot of parts moving around, but how do you avoid a repeat of this year, when it was discovered late that we didn't have adequate personnel to run his scheme? To answer that, we first have to admit that we will need to use more of our existing personnel than we might want. We will really rely on our young players to execute his scheme. That means that Marcus Thomas, Tim Crowder, and Jarvis Moss all have to make a leap in their second year. We can't secure all of the talent we need through FA and the draft. We have to stick with our investment in the younger players, and hope that they will continue to develop into more effective players. All the same, we absolutely do not have the right people on the bus right now. We have to properly identify the few positions where we can really make an improvement through draft or FA, and make a bid for top tier quality where we can. DT is the obvious spot, but can we really compete for the top DT FAs? This is the one thing that Denver must isolate as the number one offseason priority. Denver needs a proven, monster DT that consistently disrupts running plays in the middle. This is such a difficult to acquire commodity, I fear we will be left scouting more young players to develop. Either that, or Denver will overpay a second tier FA in hopes that the improvement will be enough. After the DT priority, the next huge personnel issue is the LB corps. Assuming DJ stays at Mike, where do we go from here? I don't think the draft is the answer to this one, although we could certainly benefit from growing more of our own talent. I think Denver needs to focus on LB as their realistic #1 FA acquisition. Although DT is the greater need, I don't see the Broncos landing elite DT talent (hope I'm proven wrong). Instead, they shouldn't decide not to pull the trigger on an excellent LB acquisition in hopes that they can square away DT if they wait for the opportunity. If the Broncos don't have the chance to land a top tier DT in FA early on, they should nail down a top-flight replacement for Webster and look at drafting an elite DT, reinforced by a second-tier DT FA acquisition. What about safety? Another priority concern. Hamza looks to be decent enough to get by, but what if Lynch departs?

Behind all of the personnel moves is the following question: will there be too much change during the offseason? We can hope that Denver manages to get all of the right people on the bus, but with that much change, will it be too much of a task to forge a defense with an identity? It will be almost like starting from scratch, given the expected turnover in personnel. If Lynch departs, it will mark the end of the defense as we know it, and the emergence of a new one. Who will rise to lead this force? Again, we have to turn to DJ and hope that he is capable of stepping into those shoes a bit more. I honestly don't see it. In my opinion, the defense needs an emergence from the youth movement. These younger players on the line need to band together and decide they have what it takes to become one of the league's premier Ds. I would like to see the Gatorhorn project take off, with these guys feeling a deep bond to each other that they all have each other's backs. It would be nice if they could get Okam in on that action, if they can't land Ellis or Dorsey.

My greatest fear is that Bates feels too much fire and overpays for merely adequate players, and too many of them, when what he needs to do is smartly identify the few realistic acquisitions that will serve the Broncos best, and continue to rely on the youth movement. Even worse would be if the Broncos decide to drop Bates before he has a chance to get the right people on the bus. With a premier veteran LB to join DJ, and another young stud DT like Okam, backed up with a reliable second-tier DT FA, Bates would have a solid framework for forging the 2008 defense into a dominant unit. For the safety position, we might have to get by on average. Too much change will be counterproductive; we need to have faith in the youth movement and hope DJ can be a leader.

[BigBroncLove]

That was an excellent post Hawgdriver, just damn excellent. If I didn't have to go downtown tonight for new years I'd spend a few hours printing, framing, and distrubting that post.

[Bronco9798]

Nice read, but Bates needs to move on.

[yardog]

I agree Hawgdriver nice post. I'm just not sure Bates and Slowik are the right coachs for the personnel we have or we can expect to get in one off season. We could all see the run D was an issue from the start. Even when Bates changed the D he still didnt fix it. I want a DC that coach to the players we have. Not stick them in a scheme that they can't master and then switch them to one that still doesn't get the job done.

[Hawgdriver]

Nice read, but Bates needs to move on.

You know, I disagree. I think Bates' effect can be captured in one decision he made in particular. He let Gerard Warren go. Although Warren was probably the most capable DT we had, he decided that he wasn't the right type of person to have on your team. He could have left well enough alone, and not sacrificed an element of a superior run defense. But he made the tough call to go with the type of player, not just how well they play. I think Bates is the right man to select those players, and when he gets the ones he needs, he'll make something that's better for the Broncos in the long run. He could have had a serviceable defense for this season, but he has a strong notion of the type of players you need to forge a team. He didn't get all of the players he needed, but if we give him time, he will. His downfall may be his decision to release Warren, which hurt us this season, but allowed us to move to where we want to be--much like the move to drop Jake for Jay. I hope he gets a chance to put things right next year, because I like a guy that makes the tough call instead of easier alternatives.

[DenBronx]

if we let bates go...

...then how credible is brian billick as a defensive cordinator? did he have anything to do with the success of that defense for so many years?

[BOSSHOGG30]

if we let bates go...

...then how credible is brian billick as a defensive cordinator? did he have anything to do with the success of that defense for so many years?

No, he is an offensive coach.

[yardog]

No, he is an offensive coach.

On the other hand we could us that for the reason we S*** so bad on Def.

[DenBronx]

No, he is an offensive coach.

he could be known as one but i think he really had alot to do with that defense. he wouldnt be any worse than bates.

[BOSSHOGG30]

he could be known as one but i think he really had alot to do with that defense. he wouldnt be any worse than bates.

considering he has nothing to do with coaching defense... yes he would.

He has been coaching on the offensive side of the ball his entire life, he became a head coach because of his success at turning really bad offenses into some of the leagues best offenses. The Ryan family is the reason for the success in Baltimore. Now if you are looking for an offensive coordinator then you would be talking something here. He may not be a good head coach, but he sure the heck can coach an offense.

[DenBronx]

considering he has nothing to do with coaching defense... yes he would.

He has been coaching on the offensive side of the ball his entire life, he became a head coach because of his success at turning really bad offenses into some of the leagues best offenses. The Ryan family is the reason for the success in Baltimore. Now if you are looking for an offensive coordinator then you would be talking something here. He may not be a good head coach, but he sure the heck can coach an offense.

i think his offensive style would not mesh well with shanahans anywa. i was purely speculating how he could improve the defense. he has been a key part of at least building that defense. now, he may not be all that great at building a scheme and this is what i was wanting to know. after 9 years you would think he would know alot about it.

[dogfish]

he could be known as one but i think he really had alot to do with that defense. he wouldnt be any worse than bates.



nah, he just lucked into having a great defense. . . ozzy newsome is the man responsible-- he's the one who put the talent in place, and hired coaches like marvin lewis, mike nolan and rex ryan. . . billick is freakin' useless. . . .

[TXBRONC]

nah, he just lucked into having a great defense. . . ozzy newsome is the man responsible-- he's the one who put the talent in place, and hired coaches like marvin lewis, mike nolan and rex ryan. . . billick is freakin' useless. . . .


Yep most of the talent that was on Ravens team in their Super Bowl run was there before he even arrived.

[DenBronx]

Yep most of the talent that was on Ravens team in their Super Bowl run was there before he even arrived.

that proves a good head coach is useless until he has a strong supporting cast.

if the ravens fired billick AND his staff then i think we should take a serious look at his coaching staff.