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Broncos Mtnman
12-25-2007, 02:58 PM
Shanahan, offense seem stuck in 20th century (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_7803470)

By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post

SAN DIEGO — Broncos coach Mike Shanahan became a grandpa for the first time this year.

He does not look old. But, too often, Shanahan acts stuck in his ways on the football field.

There is no grandfather clause for offensive genius in the NFL. You either innovate or grow old.

During the past two seasons, the scoring production of Denver is down a disturbing 20 percent from the peak efficiency Shanahan established during his first decade on the job.

On a blue Christmas Eve, when the Broncos looked lost against San Diego, the offensive game plan designed by Shanahan and his coaching staff appeared tired, stale and dated.

Final score: Chargers 23, Denver 3. But all you had to do is read the faces of the Broncos to calculate the magnitude of a 6-9 team's frustration.

There was safety John Lynch earning a 15- yard penalty for tossing the helmet of San Diego running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Denver quarterback Jay Cutler took an earful of smack talk from Chargers counterpart Philip Rivers on the field and could not answer back with so much as a touchdown.

But maybe offensive lineman Matt Lepsis put it best: With these Broncos, it is sometimes difficult to find a pulse.

"We were frustrated all game long," Cutler said. "Struggled on third down, struggled in turnovers, struggled in the red zone. Offensively, we can't play like that and win."

Remember when all the Broncos had to do to score a touchdown was for John Elway to glance at Terrell Davis?

No more. In two games this season against the best team in their division, the Broncos did not reach the end zone against San Diego.

In an iPod world, Shanahan's CD player is stuck on the same old songs from the 1990s. Sounding very much like a baby boomer caught behind the curve, Shanahan recently poked fun at himself, talking about being introduced to the video game "Guitar Hero" by his son.

Of course, there are all kinds of newfangled toys and gadgets for which the appeal seems lost on grandpa Shanahan. Ever try e-mailing him? Good luck.

Worse, the Denver offense is now having trouble keeping pace with developments in the 21st century. Quarterbacks Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are blinding Shanahan with science.

After taking the job with the Broncos in 1995, Shanahan's offense averaged a remarkable 25 points per game for 11 long years, and scored nearly 1,000 during the stretch of two regular seasons that saw Denver win the Super Bowl.

But since longtime confidante Gary Kubiak left Denver for Texas, Shanahan has watched his offense average a tick under 20 points in the past 31 games.

It's probably no coincidence Denver has not sent a single offensive player to the Pro Bowl in that time span. The problem, however, is greater than the sum of Cutler's inexperience and unfortunate injuries.

There's no gentle way to discuss what's gone wrong.

It appears Shanahan has lost the heart of the gambler, a trait that had him constantly raising the ante every time he held the play card in his hands.

The Broncos sometimes appear almost meek on offense. Their conservative approach no longer can be blamed on lack of trust in former quarterback Jake Plummer, who was off having himself a happy holiday and certainly could not be blamed for this debacle in San Diego, where the Broncos looked like accidental tourists, begging for directions to the beach.

Maybe general manager Ted Sundquist will be made the scapegoat for not providing Shanahan with adequate talent. And the mistakes of inexperience legitimately can be blamed for the Broncos too often walking away from the red zone with red faces.

The Chargers dictated and dominated. "It didn't surprise me," Shanahan said. "We had penalties, we had turnovers, we didn't score in the red zone. You do that against this football team, they've got a chance to embarrass you."

But want to know the real truth?

Shanahan, once known as the sharpest offensive innovator in the NFL, is looking sad and nostalgic for the '90s. The mastermind has lost his groove.

Mark Kiszla: 303-954-1053 or mkiszla@denverpost.com

Skinny
12-25-2007, 03:31 PM
In an iPod world, Shanahan's CD player is stuck on the same old songs from the 1990s. Pfft, i wish ...

You wanna get better on Offense?? Get better up front.

Bronco9798
12-25-2007, 03:31 PM
Play to Cutler's strengths and let him roll out in the red zone and be in a position to make plays. When you run up the middle on 2nd and 3rd downs inside the 10, you're playing away from your teams strength and that's rolling out and giving Cutler options. I get so sick and tired watching the Broncos pound the ball in the middle deep in the red zone. Let Cutler make the plays down there and throw a QB draw in every so often.

slim
12-25-2007, 03:39 PM
Typical Kizla article...not surprising. We need to fortify the trenches and everything will be fine.

Bronco9798
12-25-2007, 03:41 PM
Shanny has seemed to have lost his touch a bit for some reason. Play-calling has been horrible at times this year.

slim
12-25-2007, 03:43 PM
Shanny has seemed to have lost his touch a bit for some reason. Play-calling has been horrible at times this year.

Yeah, especially in the red zone. Although, I am never quite sure who is calling the plays. My gut says that Dinger is the problem.

Bronco9798
12-25-2007, 03:47 PM
Yeah, especially in the red zone. Although, I am never quite sure who is calling the plays. My gut says that Dinger is the problem.

Start letting Cutler call his own plays in the red-zone. :D

Broncos Mtnman
12-25-2007, 04:01 PM
Yeah, especially in the red zone. Although, I am never quite sure who is calling the plays. My gut says that Dinger is the problem.

I agree. I think Dinger is the problem as well.

Unfortunately, if that's the case, we aren't likely to see any improvements next year, since Shanny is famous for keeping his "good ol' boys" club regardless.

Think about it. The ONLY coach ever fired under Mike Shanahan is the DC (which has NEVER been an insider).

Close friends and former players have jobs for life in Shanny's organization.

DenBronx
12-25-2007, 04:05 PM
im not worried about shanahan this year. next year i'll be worried if he is still making the same type of mistakes and bad play calling. mikey deserves a little more credit than most give him....im confident that he will improve the team.

slim
12-25-2007, 04:10 PM
I agree. I think Dinger is the problem as well.

Unfortunately, if that's the case, we aren't likely to see any improvements next year, since Shanny is famous for keeping his "good ol' boys" club regardless.

Think about it. The ONLY coach ever fired under Mike Shanahan is the DC (which has NEVER been an insider).

Close friends and former players have jobs for life in Shanny's organization.


Shanny also fired Gibbs (the DB coach) a few years back. But your point is well taken.

The good news is that Bates isn't in the good 'ol boys club either. So maybe his stay will be short lived.

Broncos Mtnman
12-25-2007, 04:12 PM
The good news is that Bates isn't in the good 'ol boys club either. So maybe his stay will be short lived.

But that only deals with half the problem.

As the article stated, offensive production is down 20% over the past two seasons. What's the ONE constant in those two years?

Dinger.

slim
12-25-2007, 04:14 PM
But that only deals with half the problem.

As the article stated, offensive production is down 20% over the past two seasons. What's the ONE constant in those two years?

Dinger.

Your preaching to the choir here. I would love to see dinger on the next bus out of town and he can take Dennison with him (unless we could move Rick back to ST coach, I wouldn't have a problem with that).

MOtorboat
12-25-2007, 04:15 PM
I agree. I think Dinger is the problem as well.

Unfortunately, if that's the case, we aren't likely to see any improvements next year, since Shanny is famous for keeping his "good ol' boys" club regardless.

Think about it. The ONLY coach ever fired under Mike Shanahan is the DC (which has NEVER been an insider).

Close friends and former players have jobs for life in Shanny's organization.

Hey now...let's think about this statement.

A.) Why would he have fired Kubiak?
B.) Then why was Al Wilson let go?
C.) Our leading rusher has left town each of the last five seasons.

I think that Shanahan's "Good Ole Boy" network is an illusion.

slim
12-25-2007, 04:18 PM
Hey now...let's think about this statement.

A.) Why would he have fired Kubiak?
B.) Then why was Al Wilson let go?
C.) Our leading rusher has left town each of the last five seasons.

I think that Shanahan's "Good Ole Boy" network is an illusion.

I think he was talking about coaches. Players are a different story.

Broncos Mtnman
12-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Hey now...let's think about this statement.

A.) Why would he have fired Kubiak?
B.) Then why was Al Wilson let go?
C.) Our leading rusher has left town each of the last five seasons.

I think that Shanahan's "Good Ole Boy" network is an illusion.

A) Kubes didn't need firing. Others in the network have. Name ONE who HAS been fired under Shanny.

B) Al was hurt. He hasn't played anywhere since being cut. However, I didn't say anything about how he handles players. Shanny doesn't appear to have a problem getting rid of bad players (which is good, since he's the one who signed them in the first place).

However, he has a serious problem dealing with bad coaches. As already stated, he protects his buds.

C) What's that got to do with anything? The production is down over the past TWO seasons. In fact, you prove my point.

Kubiak had to deal with running back turnover and still produced a top notch running game. Dinger has no such bragging rights.

MOtorboat
12-25-2007, 04:37 PM
Am I missing something?

Did Shanahan not fire Coyer last year?

Broncos Mtnman
12-25-2007, 04:45 PM
Am I missing something?

Did Shanahan not fire Coyer last year?

Yeah, you are missing something.

Coyer wasn't part of Shanny's "insider's club." Neither was Robinson or Rhodes. Subsequently, when the team struggled, they were the ones thrown to the lions.

I'm talking about this "Insider's club" Shanny has formed with friends from his college days and players he has coached.

MOtorboat
12-25-2007, 04:50 PM
Yeah, you are missing something.

Coyer wasn't part of Shanny's "insider's club." Neither was Robinson or Rhodes. Subsequently, when the team struggled, they were the ones thrown to the lions.

I'm talking about this "Insider's club" Shanny has formed with friends from his college days and players he has coached.

And who are these people? Who is this insider's club you speak of, because not one of these coaches went to school with him.

Are you talking about Rick Dennison? Seriously, I'm missing something here.

Requiem / The Dagda
12-25-2007, 05:36 PM
I'm part of the Insider's Club!

MOtorboat
12-25-2007, 06:11 PM
I'm part of the Insider's Club!

No you're not.

Nice try though.

:wave:

Requiem / The Dagda
12-25-2007, 06:11 PM
No you're not.

Nice try though.

:wave:

Did they not teach the understanding of sarcasm on Broncos Freak? You missed the bus.

MOtorboat
12-25-2007, 06:16 PM
Did they not teach the understanding of sarcasm on Broncos Freak? You missed the bus.

LMAO!...no...you missed the bus...

I bring the
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r250/clapton_2/Sarcasm.jpg

Requiem / The Dagda
12-25-2007, 06:17 PM
Forum downhill. . . starting now.

omac
12-25-2007, 06:19 PM
Typical Kizla article...not surprising. We need to fortify the trenches and everything will be fine.

I can't agree with you more; Kizla's article is pure sensationalism. It doesn't talk about the lack of protection from the line, nor does it mention the starter turnover.

Left behind by the Pats and Colts? Please, spreading the offense is a very, very old concept, not something suddenly innovative. It does require good QB protection from the line.

Simple Jaded
12-25-2007, 09:06 PM
I can't agree with you more; Kizla's article is pure sensationalism. It doesn't talk about the lack of protection from the line, nor does it mention the starter turnover.

Left behind by the Pats and Colts? Please, spreading the offense is a very, very old concept, not something suddenly innovative. It does require good QB protection from the line.


That's what Kizla does, and that's about all he does.

The offensive (and defensive line/are) is in need of immediate attention, and things will begin to return to normal, imo.

But Kizla's acts as if Shanahan's playcalling is contributing to Global Warming because it gets a reaction.

Imo, Shanahan's handling of Cutler this year has been excellent, and his playcalling had a lot to do with it.

If he starts calling plays like he did for John Elway, we have last nights clunker a lot earlier in the season.

And enough cannot be said for the inconsistency of the o-lines effect on Shanahan's playcalling as well.

Most sports writers that have been doing this as long as Kizla would know this, but with Kiz, you just don't know if he's stupid or if he's just being an a$$hole......

omac
12-26-2007, 12:25 AM
That's what Kizla does, and that's about all he does.

The offensive (and defensive line/are) is in need of immediate attention, and things will begin to return to normal, imo.

But Kizla's acts as if Shanahan's playcalling is contributing to Global Warming because it gets a reaction.

Imo, Shanahan's handling of Cutler this year has been excellent, and his playcalling had a lot to do with it.

If he starts calling plays like he did for John Elway, we have last nights clunker a lot earlier in the season.

And enough cannot be said for the inconsistency of the o-lines effect on Shanahan's playcalling as well.

Most sports writers that have been doing this as long as Kizla would know this, but with Kiz, you just don't know if he's stupid or if he's just being an a$$hole......

Yeah, Shanahan's brought Cutler along very well this season, and the play by the lines have hampered the playcalling a lot. LOL at your last statement. :D

Watchthemiddle
12-26-2007, 01:18 AM
Yeah, Shanahan's brought Cutler along very well this season, and the play by the lines have hampered the playcalling a lot. LOL at your last statement. :D

How has the playcalling been hampered by the O line this ear?

If the offensive line is as bad as it has been described by many, then why has the playcalling been 5 step drops?

Why wouldn't the play calling be shotguns and rollouts?

5 step drop the QB is supposed to look at teh #1 WR...check down, check down if need be...and release it or run the ball.

Other then the play where Cutler fumbled the other night, have we seen much check down, check down and run out of him?

omac
12-26-2007, 01:58 AM
How has the playcalling been hampered by the O line this ear?

If the offensive line is as bad as it has been described by many, then why has the playcalling been 5 step drops?

Why wouldn't the play calling be shotguns and rollouts?

5 step drop the QB is supposed to look at teh #1 WR...check down, check down if need be...and release it or run the ball.

Other then the play where Cutler fumbled the other night, have we seen much check down, check down and run out of him?

Read the article. It makes mention of how the Shanny's offense is behind in the times when compared to the Pats and the Colts offense. First of all, spreading the ball isn't anything new, but in order to do that, you need an offensive line that can protect the quarterback.

If you check out most of the games Cutler's been very successful at, you'll see that he gets rid of the ball pretty fast. That's because there's very little protection. Compare that with Brady's spread offense, or even Anderson quarterbacking for the Browns, and you'll see that the added time the line gives them allows for better reads of the defense, better progression, and also allows time for deeper pass plays.

Posters all season long have been complaining about how he haven't had enough deep throws this season, and a huge part of that equation is that those plays need time to develop, time which more often than not, the offensive line does not give Cutler. Most of the deep plays Cutler has been able to connect on, he's bought time for himself despite the offensive line.

Besides pass protection, when the offensive line can't get enough penetration for zone blocking, the rushers are stuffed early on. Since Denver's offense relies on rushing to set up play action, when the rush is stopped, no defense is fooled when the offense is going to pass. That leads to Denver having to rely on it's pass protection alone, and given that they don't give Cutler enough time, that limits their plays to quickly developing ones.

When the line cannot do it's job in zone blocking, Denver doesn't run the ball effectively, and it affects playaction as well.

That is how the effectivity of the line affects playcalling, and I'm sure almost everyone agrees with this.

dogfish
12-26-2007, 02:01 AM
kiszla's still pissed off that the jocks used to kick his skinny ass back in high school-- damn dude, get over it already!

Lonestar
12-26-2007, 02:23 AM
A) Kubes didn't need firing. Others in the network have. Name ONE who HAS been fired under Shanny.

B) Al was hurt. He hasn't played anywhere since being cut. However, I didn't say anything about how he handles players. Shanny doesn't appear to have a problem getting rid of bad players (which is good, since he's the one who signed them in the first place).
However, he has a serious problem dealing with bad coaches. As already stated, he protects his buds.

C) What's that got to do with anything? The production is down over the past TWO seasons. In fact, you prove my point.

Kubiak had to deal with running back turnover and still produced a top notch running game. Dinger has no such bragging rights.




DING

DING

DING

we have a wienner

broncofanatic1987
12-26-2007, 09:57 AM
The Broncos sometimes appear almost meek on offense. Their conservative approach no longer can be blamed on lack of trust in former quarterback Jake Plummer, who was off having himself a happy holiday and certainly could not be blamed for this debacle in San Diego, where the Broncos looked like accidental tourists, begging for directions to the beach.

I still blame Jake!!:eviltongue:;)

BOSSHOGG30
12-26-2007, 10:33 AM
Denver needs a true blocking full back and a few bigger offensive linemen to beef up the o-line.

Broncolingus
12-26-2007, 11:05 AM
Denver needs a true blocking full back and a few bigger offensive linemen to beef up the o-line.

What he said...

Oh, and let's do the same on the d-line too...

They both are equal priorities...

Nomad
12-26-2007, 11:12 AM
Many, many years ago my HS coach stressed your only as strong as your foundation. He referred to the lines (offense and defense). The BRONCOS have proven him right. Whether Shanahan phylosophy of the oline is outdated, he needs to fix the men up front, if not then the BRONCOS will have another season like this year regardless of having good RBs and receivers.

Lonestar
12-26-2007, 11:44 AM
Denver needs a true blocking full back and a few bigger offensive linemen to beef up the o-line..

I have been advocating this for years.. They need somemore beef especially inside the FIVE.

The ZBS is really IMO only good from our 10 to the red zone as it is based on finesse and when they put in their jumbo DL packages we just can't move the beef with finesse.. You have to meet strength with the same.

Alomst the same goes to pass protection. the DL guys have been getting faster, stronger and bigger over the years and our guys just are not up to slowing the rush down.. Throw a blitz in and Jay is toast..

Lonestar
12-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Many, many years ago my HS coach stressed your only as strong as your foundation. He referred to the lines (offense and defense). The BRONCOS have proven him right. Whether Shanahan phylosophy of the oline is outdated, he needs to fix the men up front, if not then the BRONCOS will have another season like this year regardless of having good RBs and receivers.

Exactomondo..

You win or lose games @ the LOS.

We have been pretty good over the years as ZBS team.. However as more teams opt in on it the defenses see it much more and DC have reason to create defenses for it..

3-4 with great NT's are hard to defeat with the ZBS. Especially if we have to pass to establish the RUN.

Perhaps the league has passed Mikey by..

Lonestar
12-26-2007, 11:52 AM
What he said...

Oh, and let's do the same on the d-line too...

They both are equal priorities...

NT or DT is the absolute highest priortity the longest overdue fix..

That last decent DT reagor we drafted now starts for IND, because the moron DLine coach could not find him the playing time and they traded him instead of letting him set on the bench and practice with us..

Another Mikey the GM, FUBAR

broncosfanscott
12-26-2007, 04:21 PM
Read the article. It makes mention of how the Shanny's offense is behind in the times when compared to the Pats and the Colts offense. First of all, spreading the ball isn't anything new, but in order to do that, you need an offensive line that can protect the quarterback.

If you check out most of the games Cutler's been very successful at, you'll see that he gets rid of the ball pretty fast. That's because there's very little protection. Compare that with Brady's spread offense, or even Anderson quarterbacking for the Browns, and you'll see that the added time the line gives them allows for better reads of the defense, better progression, and also allows time for deeper pass plays.

Posters all season long have been complaining about how he haven't had enough deep throws this season, and a huge part of that equation is that those plays need time to develop, time which more often than not, the offensive line does not give Cutler. Most of the deep plays Cutler has been able to connect on, he's bought time for himself despite the offensive line.

Besides pass protection, when the offensive line can't get enough penetration for zone blocking, the rushers are stuffed early on. Since Denver's offense relies on rushing to set up play action, when the rush is stopped, no defense is fooled when the offense is going to pass. That leads to Denver having to rely on it's pass protection alone, and given that they don't give Cutler enough time, that limits their plays to quickly developing ones.

When the line cannot do it's job in zone blocking, Denver doesn't run the ball effectively, and it affects playaction as well.

That is how the effectivity of the line affects playcalling, and I'm sure almost everyone agrees with this.


100% true. Considering what he has had to work with I think he has done pretty well. Now give him the protection he needs and he will really gel.

Watchthemiddle
12-26-2007, 05:15 PM
DIdn't anyone ever tell Shanny in little league that the two most important positions on the football field were offense and defensive lines.

This season should be a wake up call for him in that regard.