PDA

View Full Version : Good article on Javon Walker's future



Stand Ablaze
12-22-2007, 04:30 PM
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/22/injured-walker-stuck-in-limbo/
By Lee Rasizer, Rocky Mountain News
Saturday, December 22, 2007

There's no way around it: Tearing an anterior cruciate ligament during the season is awful for an NFL player.

The games are over. The rehabilitation process is just beginning.

But, all in all, Broncos receiver Javon Walker prefers the scenario he endured three years ago to the uncertainty he has endured during the past few months.

A tweak in training camp. Trying to play through discomfort. Inactivity. Surgery. Living in the trainer's room. Then, in a return to action, not really feeling like himself in his on-field comeback.

Walker recently estimated he's at 75 percent of full strength while returning after having a cyst removed from his right knee in October. The layoff has been evident in his statistics since his Nov. 25 reappearance in limited action: three catches for 27 yards.

But, in Walker's view, working his way back in midstream goes beyond the limited number of opportunities he's getting now.

"This year is frustrating, because you're doing what you can do and the knee is preventing you from being your best out there," said Walker, who started the season with two 100-yard receiving games before the knee problem flared up. "And, obviously, when you've got something that's keeping you from being your best, it plays into everybody else's eyes.

"It plays into the coaches' eyes. It plays into the quarterback's eyes. Because now, even when you're out there, there's a trust factor there. 'Can I go to him or can I not go to him?' "

No doubts for Walker

The always self-assured Walker has no doubts he once again can be a go-to guy, especially considering that he's feeling relatively spry, though not full strength.

It's going to take a strong offseason program to get him back to total health as he also tries to regain that trust factor.

During Walker's long absence, Brandon Marshall established himself as a No. 1 receiver. Brandon Stokley demonstrated the leadership and disciplined route-running to earn a new contract. It has left Walker in something of a football purgatory.

He still has star potential, but there's some doubt, after a second procedure on his right knee, whether he can recapture his standing among the NFL's best at his position - and how much it should cost the Broncos to take that chance.

"I hope they look at it and say, 'You know, (he) had surgery during the middle of the year and we take that into consideration that he wasn't himself.' Because if you go back to last year, it was all 16 games, every practice, and there wasn't no change in my attitude," Walker said. "The only thing that happened this year was, I just got hurt and I've been trying to play on something that's just not right."

Walker, coming off an excellent 69-catch, 1,084-yard debut with Denver in 2006, appeared to be ready to carry that performance over with an arduous training camp. While Marshall battled a quadriceps problem, Stokley eased back from Achilles' tendon surgery and others sat, Walker took part daily without time off. But during the Broncos and Cowboys' joint training camp in Dallas, he came down awkwardly on his right leg in the end zone.

He played through the pain, but the problem worsened and finally required surgery.

Knee has been 'fixed'

Walker has continued his rehabilitation while in the midst of preparing for games the past several weeks.

"It's fixed," he said of his knee's current condition. "But any time you have something that's bothering you and you do the activities we're doing here right now, it's not going to be at its full potential until it gets the rest it's going to need in the offseason."

Banking on Walker's full recovery is an expensive proposition for the Broncos.

Walker remains one of the team's highest-paid players, with a salary-cap hit next season of $7.05 million. The scenario is made trickier given the acceleration of money owed him should he opt not to renegotiate or if the team considers the total investment too risky. Walker has $8 million in prorations remaining in the final four years of the deal, plus a significant penalty for the team should it decline to pick up his upcoming $3.4 million option bonus. Walker also is due a $2 million roster bonus in March.

He views the situation as clear-cut: His contract essentially kicked in this year, he was hurt, will be back full speed and is looking toward "my best years to come." So, from his standpoint, a revised deal is unnecessary. The cap hit, meanwhile, might be too steep for the team to do anything but keep him and hope for a turnaround.

"A lot of other guys that signed their big deals this year, do most teams come to them?" Walker asked. "Obviously, Larry Johnson signed a big deal. He's missed a majority of the year. It's like he got his money this year, but then you come back right at the end of the season and ask him to take a pay cut because he got hurt? I mean, look at (Colts defensive end) Dwight Freeney. He hurt his (foot), but he signed his big deal this year. . . . I'm just one of those guys. It's football. I got injured and couldn't play as many games and couldn't perform at the level I'm normally capable of."

Walker views his healthy re- emergence into the lineup potentially as taking Denver's receiving corps into the NFL's upper echelon. Marshall, Stokley and Walker each have had at least one 1,000-yard individual season. It's a matter of how a historically run-oriented offense will be oriented to get the receivers heavily involved.

Of that trio, Walker potentially provides a quality - speed - that will help open up the air attack for everyone.

It all depends on his knee and financial considerations.

"I look at that being a big strength - going deep and making plays to help everything underneath," Walker said. "But even though I didn't go deep into the season and there was only a couple games I played, you go back and look at the first two games, it lets me know, shoot, I can catch underneath. The first two games, I really didn't go deep and there was a lot of stuff underneath, where I got yards after the catch. So knowing that I can go deep but also catch slants, crossing routes, that's just putting it all together."

Tned
12-22-2007, 04:36 PM
If the knee is healthy, and based on what we witnessed him do last year, Walker and Marshall starting, with Stokely in the slot, and Scheffler at TE will make Denver a potent passing offense (assuming we get Cutler some protection).

TXBRONC
12-22-2007, 05:16 PM
I think it would be a mistake for us let Walker go if he healthy.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 05:18 PM
If the knee is healthy, and based on what we witnessed him do last year, Walker and Marshall starting, with Stokely in the slot, and Scheffler at TE will make Denver a potent passing offense (assuming we get Cutler some protection).


I think this is a huge part of the equation..

All the firepower this team has on boards rivals almost no one..

Solid running game two top TE's three 1000 yard type receivers. A mobile strong armed QB..

Well many teams would like to have 1/3 of that. Combined together they all make each other better..

If mikey can figure out plays that work inside the 5 or even 10 then the offensive side it pretty much fixed..

I'm not even sure we need a deep guy all that bad. The defense as it stands has way to much to cover with those guys..

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 05:20 PM
I think it would be a mistake for us let Walker go if he healthy.


Me to but he has a huge contract coming up and IF his knee is not 100%, then he should be dumped, when it is best CAP wise for us..

Tned
12-22-2007, 05:53 PM
I think this is a huge part of the equation..

All the firepower this team has on boards rivals almost no one..

Solid running game two top TE's three 1000 yard type receivers. A mobile strong armed QB..

Well many teams would like to have 1/3 of that. Combined together they all make each other better..

If mikey can figure out plays that work inside the 5 or even 10 then the offensive side it pretty much fixed..

I'm not even sure we need a deep guy all that bad. The defense as it stands has way to much to cover with those guys..

IMHO, stating the obvious, which I am not a football coach, Shanny has to do one of two things:

First, get a bigger line that is capable of straight pass blocking, even if that means the famed Denver Zone blocking running attack takes a bit of a hit. This will allow Cutler time to utilize all those receiving threats.

Second, recognize that if he keeps the small lines that are great at coordinated zone blocking, and play action, but not at straight up pass blocking, then he has to go back to the misdirection, run and play-action passing that the Broncos did so well in past years.

He can't have the personell that will only be successful in option two, but call the plays as if he had an offensive line described in option 1.

Retired_Member_001
12-22-2007, 06:29 PM
IMHO, stating the obvious, which I am not a football coach, Shanny has to do one of two things:

First, get a bigger line that is capable of straight pass blocking, even if that means the famed Denver Zone blocking running attack takes a bit of a hit. This will allow Cutler time to utilize all those receiving threats.

Second, recognize that if he keeps the small lines that are great at coordinated zone blocking, and play action, but not at straight up pass blocking, then he has to go back to the misdirection, run and play-action passing that the Broncos did so well in past years.

He can't have the personell that will only be successful in option two, but call the plays as if he had an offensive line described in option 1.

I agree with you Tned.

I think we have the ability to become a SERIOUSLY good passing team, if we could get Cutler some REAL offensive lineman. I think having an offensive tackle under 300lbs is an idiotic thing to do, after all he is possibly protection your Quarterback's blind side. Lepsis is clearly being pushed around this year, and although size doesn't mean everything, it does mean everything when you are so underweight.

The same could be said for Erik Pears, the man is 6'8ft and he only weighs 305lbs, because he is so tall the weight gets distributed all over his body making him quite skinny for a lineman.

I would like to see us get offensive tackles in the 310-320lbs range.

Offensive guard is an issue as well but if we don't get a better LT (to protect Cutler's blind side) then there is no way our team will be a great passing threat.

Lepsis + Foster (aka Erik Pears) + The Saints Reject (aka Montrae Holland) = Below average pass protection for our amazing young Quarterback.

silkamilkamonico
12-22-2007, 06:37 PM
IS their a concern that his knee is degerate, or that he will never be 100%?

Some injuries the concern isn't there, some is because of the type of injury.

An ACL tear isn't in this day and age, but I'm wondering if his knee is degenerate.

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 07:21 PM
"A lot of other guys that signed their big deals this year, do most teams come to them?" Walker asked. "Obviously, Larry Johnson signed a big deal. He's missed a majority of the year. It's like he got his money this year, but then you come back right at the end of the season and ask him to take a pay cut because he got hurt? I mean, look at (Colts defensive end) Dwight Freeney. He hurt his (foot), but he signed his big deal this year. . . . I'm just one of those guys. It's football. I got injured and couldn't play as many games and couldn't perform at the level I'm normally capable of."

Give me a brake :rolleyes:

He is getting paid Millions to sit on the bench in street clothing! The biggest problem here is that we are screwed either way.

He has not played up to what we are paying him plain and simple. Who's fault is that? Is it the teams fault? Why should he get all that money while someone else is playing for him doing all the work? He acts like he deserves the money because he is capable of being one of the best "IF" he is healthy and "IF" he can play every game for us next year.

If we weren't already screwed this would be a no brainer! If he was a FA at the end of this year would anyone here or anywhere say he is worth $7.05 million. Just for the chance of having one of the best WR next year? :rolleyes:

His attitude is crap, in fact it makes me want to cut him just because of it.

He has been hurt a lot in his carrier. Does he care that we are paying him a lot of money this year for not playing? NO! Does he care that we have waisted money in a guy who is watching others play when we could have used that money to get guys that could actualy help this team win? NO.

He could at least try and work with the team on his contract. He is the one who has to prove he is worthy of that kind of money, does he see it that way? NO. "Its just football" Your right it is Javon. When players are hurt all the time they do not get paid the same as the best in the league do.

DenBronx
12-22-2007, 07:51 PM
"A lot of other guys that signed their big deals this year, do most teams come to them?" Walker asked. "Obviously, Larry Johnson signed a big deal. He's missed a majority of the year. It's like he got his money this year, but then you come back right at the end of the season and ask him to take a pay cut because he got hurt? I mean, look at (Colts defensive end) Dwight Freeney. He hurt his (foot), but he signed his big deal this year. . . . I'm just one of those guys.

Your right Javon you are just one of those guys but YOU have a history of knee problems....LJ and Freeney do not. So that is why the Broncos have a legitimate reason to be concerned and want a new deal. 7 million nect year is going to be imo way too much for this guy. I love him but I think it's only fair to the organization. I'd hate to see him go, and by reading the article I think he feels that he can come back 100%. Having J-Walk, BMarsh, Stoke and Chef/Graham will really help Cutler spread the field. We will have a very dangerous offense next year if all these guys can play healthy.

TXBRONC
12-22-2007, 09:01 PM
Me to but he has a huge contract coming up and IF his knee is not 100%, then he should be dumped, when it is best CAP wise for us..

If his knee condition is degenerative then he has to be let go. If he's going to be 100% before the start of the season then it wont hurt give him a chance to heal up.

fcspikeit
12-22-2007, 09:09 PM
Your right Javon you are just one of those guys but YOU have a history of knee problems....LJ and Freeney do not. So that is why the Broncos have a legitimate reason to be concerned and want a new deal. 7 million nect year is going to be imo way too much for this guy. I love him but I think it's only fair to the organization. I'd hate to see him go, and by reading the article I think he feels that he can come back 100%. Having J-Walk, BMarsh, Stoke and Chef/Graham will really help Cutler spread the field. We will have a very dangerous offense next year if all these guys can play healthy.


"IF" he can come back 100% next year and bring his A game every week he would be worth the money. Right now he's a 7 million dollar "IF".

I think he owes the Broncos a new deal because of this year. When a player is playing hard for little money we all say, the team owes the player a bigger contract for all he has done. So why would it be any different for Walker? He got paid to do something that he didn't/couldn't do. Who's fault is that? Why should the team have to take the loss.

He was under contract so that's why the team has to take the loss. But it is unfair of Walker to ask the team to risk 7 million dollars on him next year when he has just about missed as many games as he has played while being with us. If he has any dignity he will rework his contract if for no other reason but to help this team win. If he will not work with the team I don't want him here and I hope we cut him.

Lonestar
12-22-2007, 09:18 PM
"IF" he can come back 100% next year and bring his A game every week he would be worth the money. Right now he's a 7 million dollar "IF".

I think he owes the Broncos a new deal because of this year. When a player is playing hard for little money we all say, the team owes the player a bigger contract for all he has done. So why would it be any different for Walker? He got paid to do something that he didn't/couldn't do. Who's fault is that? Why should the team have to take the loss.

He was under contract so that's why the team has to take the loss. But it is unfair of Walker to ask the team to risk 7 million dollars on him next year when he has just about missed as many games as he has played while being with us. If he has any dignity he will rework his contract if for no other reason but to help this team win. If he will not work with the team I don't want him here and I hope we cut him.


You see when you are underpaid for years one wexcpcet to be paid well..

Here is his numbers..



Walker, Javon

Year Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value
2007 $ 600,000 $ 4,000,000 $ 100,000 $ 4,700,000 $ 2,700,000
2006 $ 1,050,000 $ 0 $ 7,100,000 $ 8,150,000 $ 3,350,000
2005 $ 515,000 $ 0 $ 0 $ 515,000 $ 1,370,000
2004 $ 390,000 $ 0 $ 1,500 $ 391,500 $ 1,626,500
2003 $ 300,000 $ 1,300,000 $ 2,000 $ 1,602,000 $ 1,157,000
2002 $ 545,000 $ 3,000,000 $ 0 $ 3,545,000 $ 1,045,000


somehow I do not feel badly for him
$8.15 mil 2006 a good year
$4.7 for setting on the bench in 2007
One would think He might re-do with incentives if he is as good as he thinks he is..

topscribe
12-22-2007, 10:27 PM
I agree with you Tned.

I think we have the ability to become a SERIOUSLY good passing team, if we could get Cutler some REAL offensive lineman. I think having an offensive tackle under 300lbs is an idiotic thing to do, after all he is possibly protection your Quarterback's blind side. Lepsis is clearly being pushed around this year, and although size doesn't mean everything, it does mean everything when you are so underweight.

The same could be said for Erik Pears, the man is 6'8ft and he only weighs 305lbs, because he is so tall the weight gets distributed all over his body making him quite skinny for a lineman.

I would like to see us get offensive tackles in the 310-320lbs range.

Offensive guard is an issue as well but if we don't get a better LT (to protect Cutler's blind side) then there is no way our team will be a great passing threat.

Lepsis + Foster (aka Erik Pears) + The Saints Reject (aka Montrae Holland) = Below average pass protection for our amazing young Quarterback.

You keep ragging on Lepsis because he is under 300#, even though many
considered him to have been playing at a Pro Bowl level before his injury.
I saw the stats where the running backs had higher YPA going to his side,
and he handled the good pass rushers quite well. Lepsis' problem is not his
weight; it is his injury, which is still healing. The only problem I have is
whether Lepsis' injury will recover fully by next season. If it does, then he
belongs at LT, excelling as he was before.

I've said it before, and I know I'm getting redundant, but I keep answering
ongoing remarks about the O-line. But they have three (Pears, Myers, Kuper)
who have never before played at their present positions on the pro level
and another (Lepsis) still not 100% from injury. So they have the DUAL
problem of inexperience and chemistry. Even the play of the one experienced
person, who is presumably at 100% (Holland), is affected because he has
limited help at his own flanks. He is on an island out there.

I fully believe that will be a far better line next year, with their having played
together and the experience overall, and with Lepsis having recovered fully.
Also, there is the probability Nalen and/or Hamilton will be back. That is
going to be a good O-line. (My concern is still on the other side of the LOS,
where the Broncos need a couple DTs to complement Thomas.)

Anyway, Walker's return to complement Marshall, Stokely, and Scheffler,
along with the good RBs, will enable the Broncos to own opposing defenses
next year. Without Walker, the Broncos will be very good. With him, they
will be elite on offense. I hope he stays.

-----

turftoad
12-22-2007, 11:00 PM
You keep ragging on Lepsis because he is under 300#, even though many
considered him to have been playing at a Pro Bowl level before his injury.
I saw the stats where the running backs had higher YPA going to his side,
and he handled the good pass rushers quite well. Lepsis' problem is not his
weight; it is his injury, which is still healing. The only problem I have is
whether Lepsis' injury will recover fully by next season. If it does, then he
belongs at LT, excelling as he was before.

I've said it before, and I know I'm getting redundant, but I keep answering
ongoing remarks about the O-line. But they have three (Pears, Myers, Kuper)
who have never before played at their present positions on the pro level
and another (Lepsis) still not 100% from injury. So they have the DUAL
problem of inexperience and chemistry. Even the play of the one experienced
person, who is presumably at 100% (Holland), is affected because he has
limited help at his own flanks. He is on an island out there.

I fully believe that will be a far better line next year, with their having played
together and the experience overall, and with Lepsis having recovered fully.
Also, there is the probability Nalen and/or Hamilton will be back. That is
going to be a good O-line. (My concern is still on the other side of the LOS,
where the Broncos need a couple DTs to complement Thomas.)

Anyway, Walker's return to complement Marshall, Stokely, and Scheffler,
along with the good RBs, will enable the Broncos to own opposing defenses
next year. Without Walker, the Broncos will be very good. With him, they
will be elite on offense. I hope he stays.

-----
Great post and my thoughts all the way.

Tned
12-22-2007, 11:07 PM
I would like to see us get offensive tackles in the 310-320lbs range.


I know that sounds good, but it isn't some accident that the Broncos linemen are the smallest in the league. The Broncos select and pickup OL's that are small and athletic to fit in the zone blocking scheme. Foster was their first foray out of the small, nimble lineman, thinking that he was big, but athletic. Obviously, that didn't work out too well.

So, as I said, the Broncos could change their philosiphy and get more prototypical linemen, but their vaunting running game could suffer, but their drop back pass protection would like improve.

The key is that Shanny and company can't keep the small offensive line, but then change the playbook to try and use more of a pocket passing philosiphy, vs. misdirection running/play action.

broncosfanscott
12-22-2007, 11:40 PM
IMHO, stating the obvious, which I am not a football coach, Shanny has to do one of two things:

First, get a bigger line that is capable of straight pass blocking, even if that means the famed Denver Zone blocking running attack takes a bit of a hit. This will allow Cutler time to utilize all those receiving threats.

Second, recognize that if he keeps the small lines that are great at coordinated zone blocking, and play action, but not at straight up pass blocking, then he has to go back to the misdirection, run and play-action passing that the Broncos did so well in past years.

He can't have the personell that will only be successful in option two, but call the plays as if he had an offensive line described in option 1.


You are so right. I don't see Shanny abandoning either one, however something has got to give because we have all seen what Cutler can do in the games this year where he has had plenty of time to throw. I guess it will all depend on who is available in FA and the draft. Cutler has quite an arm and sooner or later we'll have to utilize all of it.

As far as Javon Walker, I hope he gets 100% healthy or close to it by next season because him an Marshall for 16 games will leave somebody one-on-one. Scheffler and Graham added to the mix as well. However, the condition of JW knee is a really big "IF". We really had the injury bug this year so I hope we get the other end of the scale next year.

Tned
12-22-2007, 11:44 PM
We really had the injury bug this year so I hope we get the other end of the scale next year.

That's for sure. This was one of the worst years in recent memory.

SmilinAssasSin27
12-23-2007, 12:53 AM
This has to be looked at with fiscal responsibility. I love Javon as much as the next guy, but dude is making major cash. With the emergence of the Brandon's and the dual threat at TE, we may wanna spend the $$ elsewhere...cough...DL and LB...cough. Especially since the health is a legit concern.

Tned
12-23-2007, 01:14 AM
This has to be looked at with fiscal responsibility. I love Javon as much as the next guy, but dude is making major cash. With the emergence of the Brandon's and the dual threat at TE, we may wanna spend the $$ elsewhere...cough...DL and LB...cough. Especially since the health is a legit concern.

I'm sure Shanny and Sundquist are going to think long and hard about his health, before giving him the big roster bonus he has due.

fcspikeit
12-23-2007, 01:50 AM
I'm sure Shanny and Sundquist are going to think long and hard about his health, before giving him the big roster bonus he has due.

I hope they do, I'm sure which ever way they go it will go down as another bad move by Shanahan the GM. Assuming Walker sticks to his guns on his current contract I would cut or trade him. Trading him would be the best but I just can't see any team dumb enough to take on his contract with all the health risks..

If we do get rid of him we will need a #2 WR :( I know stokley can play #2 but he is at his best in the slot.

My guess is we will see a lot of Martinez and Jacobs in the next couple games to see what we have to work with.

Bronco4ever
12-23-2007, 02:43 AM
While I understand where Walker's frustration is coming from, I'm not sure if he fully grasps the situation. Judging by his comments, he makes out the organization to be Mr. Meanie Pants, as if they are doing all of this renegotiation talk out of spite. It's called business Javon, and sometimes people have to make tough decisions. When someone is a potential health liability like he is, it's not a safe business move to invest in that player. Especially in this age of the salary cap, teams don't have the money to throw around to every player they covet. I'd love to have Javon back. He makes our offense better when he's healthy, but that's only IF he's healthy. I hope he realizes that the organization isn't playing the bad guy roll, but just trying to make a safe business move.

Tned
12-23-2007, 03:11 AM
While I understand where Walker's frustration is coming from, I'm not sure if he fully grasps the situation. Judging by his comments, he makes out the organization to be Mr. Meanie Pants, as if they are doing all of this renegotiation talk out of spite. It's called business Javon, and sometimes people have to make tough decisions. When someone is a potential health liability like he is, it's not a safe business move to invest in that player. Especially in this age of the salary cap, teams don't have the money to throw around to every player they covet. I'd love to have Javon back. He makes our offense better when he's healthy, but that's only IF he's healthy. I hope he realizes that the organization isn't playing the bad guy roll, but just trying to make a safe business move.

I agree 100%. If healthy, an offense with Marshall and Walker will be dynamic. However, the organization will be taking a big gamble if they can't renegotiate his contract.

Joel
12-23-2007, 09:56 AM
Which is to say, I also agree with top on this one; we've got a third year guard in his first starts, a second year guard in HIS first starts, a Pro Bowl LT coming off a season ending injury, a second year tackle who's only now getting to play his natural RT position after spending his rookie year trying to replace Lepsis, and, last but not least, a RG who was a Saint last year. If they can produce an 8th ranked rushing and 12th ranked passing game under those conditions, imagine what they can accomplish next year, and in subsequent years. That's the real beauty of it, IMHO; while losing Hamilton and Nalen for the season sucked hard core, most of our current starters are VERY young and still performing at least adequately if not spectacularly. They'll get better with time, and our offensive performance will improve correspondingly.

claymore
12-23-2007, 10:12 AM
I think Shanny expects to, and wants to go back to a potent passing game that does not require the bootleg. We need stronger lineman that will allow Cutler to sit in the shotgun.

If you watch the time Brady has in the pocket, it is unreal. I mean there were times this year that guy had like 10 seconds in the pocket, just standing there scanning the field. Crazy I tell you.

underrated29
12-23-2007, 11:42 AM
I have been saying it for a while, there is absolutely no way we cut javon. 0% chance of it happening. I also think imo that there is a 99% chance that he stays. The only real way i see him leaving is through a HUGE trade. I mean like champ-portis type. I also have no real idea who or what it would be.

We want javon, shanny wants his qb to have the best weapons. and jovon is. He should be healthy, but its to much of a risk to say well we dont know if you will or not so we will cut you...thats just dumb...

Since when have the broncos ever REALLY done well with the cap. Even with javons money, we should still (speculating, not actually sure) be minimum 7 mil under the cap. Thats about where we were last year.

And many agree we probably arent going to be going after a top tier guy as he WILL be to expensive. SO who cares how much we have left in our cap, as long as we do have some left. Javon is definitley worht the risk.

topscribe
12-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Which is to say, I also agree with top on this one; we've got a third year guard in his first starts, a second year guard in HIS first starts, a Pro Bowl LT coming off a season ending injury, a second year tackle who's only now getting to play his natural RT position after spending his rookie year trying to replace Lepsis, and, last but not least, a RG who was a Saint last year. If they can produce an 8th ranked rushing and 12th ranked passing game under those conditions, imagine what they can accomplish next year, and in subsequent years. That's the real beauty of it, IMHO; while losing Hamilton and Nalen for the season sucked hard core, most of our current starters are VERY young and still performing at least adequately if not spectacularly. They'll get better with time, and our offensive performance will improve correspondingly.

Wow, Bobby, you can say in a short paragraph what I tried to in practically a book. :shocked:

Where in the world have you been? Going to stick around now and contribute like I know you can? :wave:

-----

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 12:48 PM
I have been saying it for a while, there is absolutely no way we cut javon. 0% chance of it happening. I also think imo that there is a 99% chance that he stays. The only real way i see him leaving is through a HUGE trade. I mean like champ-portis type. I also have no real idea who or what it would be.

We want javon, shanny wants his qb to have the best weapons. and jovon is. He should be healthy, but its to much of a risk to say well we dont know if you will or not so we will cut you...thats just dumb...

Since when have the broncos ever REALLY done well with the cap. Even with javons money, we should still (speculating, not actually sure) be minimum 7 mil under the cap. Thats about where we were last year.

And many agree we probably arent going to be going after a top tier guy as he WILL be to expensive. SO who cares how much we have left in our cap, as long as we do have some left. Javon is definitley worht the risk.


Actually Mikey has been pretty good at cutting dying wood from the cap each year, right now we are at 17 and change under the cap I suspect that includes all the roster bonuses and such. Those numbers are usually covered under the existing contracts and all of heir provisions..

But make no illusions mikey will ask for folks to re-do contracts if they have not contributed to the standards of their contract numbers..

I suspect that they will have the team doctors examine the knee throughly before giving him the roster bonus. At least I hope they do..

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 01:00 PM
Which is to say, I also agree with top on this one; we've got a third year guard in his first starts, a second year guard in HIS first starts, a Pro Bowl LT coming off a season ending injury, a second year tackle who's only now getting to play his natural RT position after spending his rookie year trying to replace Lepsis, and, last but not least, a RG who was a Saint last year. If they can produce an 8th ranked rushing and 12th ranked passing game under those conditions, imagine what they can accomplish next year, and in subsequent years. That's the real beauty of it, IMHO; while losing Hamilton and Nalen for the season sucked hard core, most of our current starters are VERY young and still performing at least adequately if not spectacularly. They'll get better with time, and our offensive performance will improve correspondingly.

Briefly your correct here.
We have been playing with players that are new to the spots and more importantly new to each other. OLINES and are more importantly depend on trusting the guy next to you to do his job exactly how he is supposed to do so. The longer those guys work together the more trusting they are with each other and can anticipate the guy next to him to adjust in certain situations in a way they they will not have to react to him BUT to move in concert with him automatically.

This is why KC OLINE was so good for so long they had guys playing next to each other for almost a decade not weeks like we have.

That all said we do need to get bigger, not huge but bigger.. When our OLT is almost 25 pounds under the average of the really good teams that lead the league in passing and running, something is wrong. You can do only so much with finesse sometimes and this gets more critical in the red zone. and even more so INSIDE the FIVE. This is where brute strength, comes in the DLINE has it goal line units in that simply does not get finessed out of position..

DenBronx
12-23-2007, 02:01 PM
Which is to say, I also agree with top on this one; we've got a third year guard in his first starts, a second year guard in HIS first starts, a Pro Bowl LT coming off a season ending injury, a second year tackle who's only now getting to play his natural RT position after spending his rookie year trying to replace Lepsis, and, last but not least, a RG who was a Saint last year. If they can produce an 8th ranked rushing and 12th ranked passing game under those conditions, imagine what they can accomplish next year, and in subsequent years. That's the real beauty of it, IMHO; while losing Hamilton and Nalen for the season sucked hard core, most of our current starters are VERY young and still performing at least adequately if not spectacularly. They'll get better with time, and our offensive performance will improve correspondingly.



how did this become an offensive line thread??? :confused:

anyhow good post though. i think nalen is the only one that really might not be back next year. hamilton and myers show some promising signs here. lepsis looks like he has seen his better days but as you have pointed out there have been alot of changes and injuries. i think the qb protection has been decent but not all that great. cutler needs a new LG next year for his blind side....i think that will drastically improve the passing and running game. we run more to the left side anyway.

Joel
12-23-2007, 03:48 PM
how did this become an offensive line thread??? :confused:

anyhow good post though. i think nalen is the only one that really might not be back next year. hamilton and myers show some promising signs here. lepsis looks like he has seen his better days but as you have pointed out there have been alot of changes and injuries. i think the qb protection has been decent but not all that great. cutler needs a new LG next year for his blind side....i think that will drastically improve the passing and running game. we run more to the left side anyway.
It happened just before I showed up with my obsession, but thanks. I really don't think Hamilton's a bad guard in pass protection (though he's not as good as he is at run blocking), he just looked worse last year because he was forced to compensate for a rookie RT replacing Matt Lepsis (or trying to replace him). The big blind side issue is those fast ends coming around LT, which focuses all eyes on Lepsis and Harris.

top: This is probably the only place I've EVER been accused of being concise; thanks again. As to where I've been, work, work and more work; the few occasions when a Broncos game aired in my area I was usually there (though I did get to see the FG against SD before I left; never dreamed it would be our only score.... ) I've got seven days off over Christmas though, so I'll try to be around at least a little more between trips to Houston and catching up elsewhere; it's nice to be appreciated though. ;)

Jr: When it comes to our undersized line I feel a lot less comfortable discussing red zone offense than I do pass protection; the pass protection hasn't been too bad from what I can see this year, but the red zone production is at least as pitiful as last year. That said, we haven't had full access to the arsenal we thought we had at the start of the season; Rod's never come back, Javon's missed half the season and Henry was dinged repeatedly in addition to arguing with the League about the propriety of their drug tests. With an additional year of experience and an extra month to recuperate from injuries (sigh... ) we'll have a lot better idea of our capabilities after next year.

We DO seem to be getting a little bigger, with linemen >300 (if only just) and between the inherent mobility needs of tackles and centers and the similar demands our run blocking makes of guards I doubt we'll ever be truly huge. Our red zone production is very subpar, but I've seen worse; I used to cringe every time the Oilers got past the 20 because I knew that UNTIL then they had a very good chance of scoring. I honestly think it's less about size than versatility, and Cutler helps with that, as having a half dozen healthy WRs will. You reach a point where you MUST score a TD, and if the only way you can do that is to hand off behind Lepsis and Hamilton, NFL DCs will know that, too, and plan accordingly. Unless you can burn 'em with a quick out/slant to Javon or a delay draw behind Holland and Pears, you'll get crushed trying to run through 10 defenders. Sure, it was nice to see a Terrell Davis blinded by a migraine pull the whole Packer D off so Elway could score a TD, but Elway still had to score or it was all for naught.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 04:06 PM
It happened just before I showed up with my obsession, but thanks. I really don't think Hamilton's a bad guard in pass protection (though he's not as good as he is at run blocking), he just looked worse last year because he was forced to compensate for a rookie RT replacing Matt Lepsis (or trying to replace him). The big blind side issue is those fast ends coming around LT, which focuses all eyes on Lepsis and Harris.

top: This is probably the only place I've EVER been accused of being concise; thanks again. As to where I've been, work, work and more work; the few occasions when a Broncos game aired in my area I was usually there (though I did get to see the FG against SD before I left; never dreamed it would be our only score.... ) I've got seven days off over Christmas though, so I'll try to be around at least a little more between trips to Houston and catching up elsewhere; it's nice to be appreciated though. ;)

Jr: When it comes to our undersized line I feel a lot less comfortable discussing red zone offense than I do pass protection; the pass protection hasn't been too bad from what I can see this year, but the red zone production is at least as pitiful as last year. That said, we haven't had full access to the arsenal we thought we had at the start of the season; Rod's never come back, Javon's missed half the season and Henry was dinged repeatedly in addition to arguing with the League about the propriety of their drug tests. With an additional year of experience and an extra month to recuperate from injuries (sigh... ) we'll have a lot better idea of our capabilities after next year.

We DO seem to be getting a little bigger, with linemen >300 (if only just) and between the inherent mobility needs of tackles and centers and the similar demands our run blocking makes of guards I doubt we'll ever be truly huge. Our red zone production is very subpar, but I've seen worse; I used to cringe every time the Oilers got past the 20 because I knew that UNTIL then they had a very good chance of scoring. I honestly think it's less about size than versatility, and Cutler helps with that, as having a half dozen healthy WRs will. You reach a point where you MUST score a TD, and if the only way you can do that is to hand off behind Lepsis and Hamilton, NFL DCs will know that, too, and plan accordingly. Unless you can burn 'em with a quick out/slant to Javon or a delay draw behind Holland and Pears, you'll get crushed trying to run through 10 defenders. Sure, it was nice to see a Terrell Davis blinded by a migraine pull the whole Packer D off so Elway could score a TD, but Elway still had to score or it was all for naught.

Our OLINE is not all that bad overall until you talk redzone.. But thenm of course that is where you score the points.

I also do not think that this OLINE is built for the deep pass.. Ther ahve been way to many passes incomplete because Jay has been hurried into throwing the ball in passing situations a few almost picks and a few that were..

Lepsis and pears got ownbed by a really good DE in HOU.. We can;t let that happen in 2008.. Or Jay will become another troy aikman, or steve young one step closer to retirement do to concussions..

Retired_Member_001
12-23-2007, 05:24 PM
You keep ragging on Lepsis because he is under 300#, even though many
considered him to have been playing at a Pro Bowl level before his injury.
I saw the stats where the running backs had higher YPA going to his side,
and he handled the good pass rushers quite well. Lepsis' problem is not his
weight; it is his injury, which is still healing. The only problem I have is
whether Lepsis' injury will recover fully by next season. If it does, then he
belongs at LT, excelling as he was before.


For a quarterback to drop back and stay in the pocket long enough to pass 10+ yards down the field, 290lbs is not enough. Defensive lines are getting bigger (that is a fact) and therefore offensive lines have got to get bigger to keep up.

Also regarding Lepsis' injury, it is the same injury that forced Shanahan to cut Courtney Brown and urge him to retire, it is also the same injury that keeps nagging Javon Walker. In my opinion Lepsis wont be able to play at a high level again.




I've said it before, and I know I'm getting redundant, but I keep answering
ongoing remarks about the O-line. But they have three (Pears, Myers, Kuper)
who have never before played at their present positions on the pro level
and another (Lepsis) still not 100% from injury. So they have the DUAL
problem of inexperience and chemistry. Even the play of the one experienced
person, who is presumably at 100% (Holland), is affected because he has
limited help at his own flanks. He is on an island out there.

I fully believe that will be a far better line next year, with their having played
together and the experience overall, and with Lepsis having recovered fully.
Also, there is the probability Nalen and/or Hamilton will be back. That is
going to be a good O-line. (My concern is still on the other side of the LOS,
where the Broncos need a couple DTs to complement Thomas.)

I'm sorry Top, but you simply cannot deny that no matter how much experience he gets, Erik Pears is no good. As for Holland, I can't believe you are even defending him, the guy is 322lbs and gets pushed around so much it isn't even funny.

I disagree that it will be a better line next year. Ben Hamilton weighs as much as a feather and Nalen is coming off a nasty injury. The only way the line will be better next year is if we draft some damn offensive tackles and sign a guard.

Just my honest opinion.

Retired_Member_001
12-23-2007, 05:26 PM
how did this become an offensive line thread??? :confused:

:laugh:

It was actually Tned who made the first offensive line post, but I fuelled the fire.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 05:34 PM
:laugh:

It was actually Tned who made the first offensive line post, but I fueled the fire.


I think the Javon walker thing ran its course..

When Jay does not have the time to throw it gravitated to OLINE..

Retired_Member_001
12-23-2007, 05:36 PM
I think the Javon walker thing ran its course..

When Jay does not have the time to throw it gravitated to OLINE..

The reason the offensive line hasn't given up ALOT more sacks is because Jay throws when he really doesn't have time to throw, he has to rush an outstanding ammount of throws.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 05:52 PM
The reason the offensive line hasn't given up ALOT more sacks is because Jay throws when he really doesn't have time to throw, he has to rush an outstanding ammount of throws.


Many of which went short long and a few as picks or almost picks.. It is just a matter of time..

Retired_Member_001
12-23-2007, 05:53 PM
Many of which went short long and a few as picks or almost picks.. It is just a matter of time..

I agree 100% !

Having a better pass blocking offensive line would also save turnovers (fumbles and Intercpetions)

topscribe
12-23-2007, 06:02 PM
For a quarterback to drop back and stay in the pocket long enough to pass 10+ yards down the field, 290lbs is not enough. Defensive lines are getting bigger (that is a fact) and therefore offensive lines have got to get bigger to keep up.

Also regarding Lepsis' injury, it is the same injury that forced Shanahan to cut Courtney Brown and urge him to retire, it is also the same injury that keeps nagging Javon Walker. In my opinion Lepsis wont be able to play at a high level again.

You don't know that, anymore than I do. The doctors probably don't even
know that. Courtney Brown's injury was at the tail end of a series of
problems he had with that knee. This is Lepsis' first. So, along with Lepsis
being an entirely different player than Brown, that is not a viable
comparison. The only way Lepsis is going to heal up completely is to have
an offseason off of that knee. We will know by next training camp. Not
before then.


I'm sorry Top, but you simply cannot deny that no matter how much experience he gets, Erik Pears is no good. As for Holland, I can't believe you are even defending him, the guy is 322lbs and gets pushed around so much it isn't even funny.Well yes, I can deny it, at least to the extent of wait and see how he is
next year. He will have more experience, the line will have played together
for a year, and from an article I read a while back the players said they
planned to put on some more muscle this offseason.

As for Holland, I have watched him, and I don't see him get pushed around
to the degree you say. In fact, he has shown me picture book technique in
pass blocking. It is his run blocking that I have not liked much. But, as I
said, he has been playing on an island out there, with no vets on either
flank with the experience to support him properly. He was a lot better when
Nalen was there, I'll tell you that.


I disagree that it will be a better line next year. Ben Hamilton weighs as much as a feather and Nalen is coming off a nasty injury. The only way the line will be better next year is if we draft some damn offensive tackles and sign a guard.

Just my honest opinion.Hamilton played quite well in his prime, but then he had Nalen and Lepsis on
either side for support. I don't know how he would do without them there.
We may get the chance to find out.

But the Broncos had better get themselves a defense, and it starts with
the defensive tackles. You can produce excitement with a seemingly
unstoppable offense, but if you can't stop the run, you aren't going to win
championships. You are too young to remember Dan Fouts' Chargers. That
is the way they were. 300 yards passing almost every game, it seemed.
Check the annals now and see how many playoffs they went to. ;)

Defense first. ALWAYS defense first.

-----

Retired_Member_001
12-23-2007, 06:14 PM
You don't know that, anymore than I do. The doctors probably don't even
know that. Courtney Brown's injury was at the tail end of a series of
problems he had with that knee. This is Lepsis' first. So, along with Lepsis
being an entirely different player than Brown, that is not a viable
comparison. The only way Lepsis is going to heal up completely is to have
an offseason off of that knee. We will know by next training camp. Not
before then.


Fair enough, however it is a nasty injury that could have an affect on his playing career.


Well yes, I can deny it, at least to the extent of wait and see how he is
next year. He will have more experience, the line will have played together
for a year, and from an article I read a while back the players said they
planned to put on some more muscle this offseason.

As for Holland, I have watched him, and I don't see him get pushed around
to the degree you say. In fact, he has shown me picture book technique in
pass blocking. It is his run blocking that I have not liked much. But, as I
said, he has been playing on an island out there, with no vets on either
flank with the experience to support him properly. He was a lot better when
Nalen was there, I'll tell you that.

We are going to have to agree to disagree, no matter how wrong you are. :D ;)

I think Erik Pears looks bad and no matter how much experience he gets, he will never be good enough. He doesn't pass block very well and he doesn't run block very well. He started off well last year playing instead of Lepsis but his form has dipped every game since the game against Indy when he did superb.

Holland started off very bad, got abit better (and I stress ABIT) and then got bad again. He didn't look very good in New Orleans and he doesn't look very good here. Holland could have the AFC Pro Bowl offensive line and he would still blow in my opinion.



Hamilton played quite well in his prime, but then he had Nalen and Lepsis on
either side for support. I don't know how he would do without them there.
We may get the chance to find out.

Hamilton is a good offensive lineman. I think he looks good when he is run blocking, but not so good pass blocking. If anyone gets thrown around alot it is Hamilton.


But the Broncos had better get themselves a defense, and it starts with
the defensive tackles. You can produce excitement with a seemingly
unstoppable offense, but if you can't stop the run, you aren't going to win
championships. You are too young to remember Dan Fouts' Chargers. That
is the way they were. 300 yards passing almost every game, it seemed.
Check the annals now and see how many playoffs they went to. ;)

Defense first. ALWAYS defense first.

I can agree with you here. I really believe that defense DOES when Championships. A great defense only needs an average offense to win, a great offense wont win if it only has an average defense (only reason the Colts won last year is because their defense stepped up in the playoffs).

omac
12-23-2007, 06:16 PM
Defense first. ALWAYS defense first.

-----

I was thinking how these recent years, the offense has had such a major advantage over the defense that a team needs a good offense in able to win. Looking at the Broncos this season, though, I appreciate more how a team needs a good defense in order not to lose. Lots of our games, the defense puts the offense in a hole.

Lonestar
12-23-2007, 06:21 PM
You don't know that, anymore than I do. The doctors probably don't even
know that. Courtney Brown's injury was at the tail end of a series of
problems he had with that knee. This is Lepsis' first. So, along with Lepsis
being an entirely different player than Brown, that is not a viable
comparison. The only way Lepsis is going to heal up completely is to have
an offseason off of that knee. We will know by next training camp. Not
before then.

Well yes, I can deny it, at least to the extent of wait and see how he is
next year. He will have more experience, the line will have played together
for a year, and from an article I read a while back the players said they
planned to put on some more muscle this offseason.

As for Holland, I have watched him, and I don't see him get pushed around
to the degree you say. In fact, he has shown me picture book technique in
pass blocking. It is his run blocking that I have not liked much. But, as I
said, he has been playing on an island out there, with no vets on either
flank with the experience to support him properly. He was a lot better when
Nalen was there, I'll tell you that.

Hamilton played quite well in his prime, but then he had Nalen and Lepsis on
either side for support. I don't know how he would do without them there.
We may get the chance to find out.

But the Broncos had better get themselves a defense, and it starts with
the defensive tackles. You can produce excitement with a seemingly
unstoppable offense, but if you can't stop the run, you aren't going to win
championships. You are too young to remember Dan Fouts' Chargers. That
is the way they were. 300 yards passing almost every game, it seemed.
Check the annals now and see how many playoffs they went to. ;)

Defense first. ALWAYS defense first.

-----


Good post as always..



Offense wins games,

defense wins championships!!!